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Punters take a dim view of the Reform contretemps – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,357
edited March 8 in General
Punters take a dim view of the Reform contretemps – politicalbetting.com

I try and avoid being smug but seeing Nigel Farage’s chances fall in the next Prime Minister market is great news for myself and those people who followed my advice to lay Nigel Farage in this market.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,824
    edited March 8
    First!

    Unlike Reform

    If only Donald Corleone's emerging mafia operation would similarly start to fall apart ...
  • eekeek Posts: 29,394
    IanB2 said:



    If only Donald Corleone's emerging mafia operation would similarly start to fall apart ...

    Give it time - it took 8 months for Farage to fall out with Mr Lowe. And Trump and co haven't had 2 months yet.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 543
    The BBC article on immigration today is interesting in that it compares the boat immigrants (30K) last year with the legal immigrants (700K) last year. The Vox Pop of the people of Shirebrook shed some light on the fears of the left behind. Left behind in that it was a thriving coal mining area and when the pit closed, people stayed.

    Broadly similar to the rust belt stories in the US and the rich vein that Vance and Trump are able to tap.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505
    What has He got banned for this time?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,044

    What has He got banned for this time?

    Didn't he start going on about how he can't even discuss the thing we've all been told not to discuss?
  • eekeek Posts: 29,394
    FPT
    Dura_Ace said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I wonder if Kemi can take advantage of the crisis in Reform.

    Obviously not. The tories were fucking idiotic with their virtue signalling choice of somebody who cannot appeal to Red Wall Racists that have gone Fukker.
    The Tories had a final choice of an unknown Kemi or someone who thought painting over a mural so that it didn't welcome children was a good way to spend money.

    Given that choice you can see why Kemi won...

    And James Cleverly probably had enough common sense to go for Mayor of London which he would have a decent chance of winning.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,685
    Good morning everyone.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,737
    eek said:

    IanB2 said:



    If only Donald Corleone's emerging mafia operation would similarly start to fall apart ...

    Give it time - it took 8 months for Farage to fall out with Mr Lowe. And Trump and co haven't had 2 months yet.
    Trump is inevitably going to fall out with Musk, it may have started already. Where the chips fall between the world's richest man and the world's greediest man will determine the survival of MAGA (and possibly the Republican party if anyone remembers that that still exists).
  • eekeek Posts: 29,394

    What has He got banned for this time?

    Didn't he start going on about how he can't even discuss the thing we've all been told not to discuss?
    Yep dropped hints while exaggerating about the scale of the issue while saying that he couldn't talk about it.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 543

    What has He got banned for this time?

    Didn't he start going on about how he can't even discuss the thing we've all been told not to discuss?
    Don't look at his profile page then.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,685
    edited March 8
    Battlebus said:

    The BBC article on immigration today is interesting in that it compares the boat immigrants (30K) last year with the legal immigrants (700K) last year. The Vox Pop of the people of Shirebrook shed some light on the fears of the left behind. Left behind in that it was a thriving coal mining area and when the pit closed, people stayed.

    Broadly similar to the rust belt stories in the US and the rich vein that Vance and Trump are able to tap.

    Shirebrook?

    That's where Sports Direct have their warehouse.

    It also has some decent connectivity via the light rail that goes all the way to Nottingham.

    Leon is a bit like Trump ... mainly afaics engages with the voices in his own head rather than the world outside it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,824

    What has He got banned for this time?

    Didn't he start going on about how he can't even discuss the thing we've all been told not to discuss?
    He also used what he isn't supposed to discuss to generate responses to something else that he is allowed to discuss but proved unable to do so without help from what he's not supposed to discuss; surely that must be a banning offence?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505
    On topic, @Dura_Ace asked the valid question on the end of the last thread - how many of the younger people attracted to Reform will actually turn out and vote for them?

    The graveyard of any political movement is reliance on non-voters. They're called non-voters because they're disengaged from politics and don't vote.

    Until something engages them. As Brexit did. I then saw the same floods of voters voting for Boris in 2019.

    These are practiced non-voters, and they can be motivated enough to vote. The Grauniad piece talks about young voters. People who haven't yet had non-voting ingrained into their psyche. These people absolutely will vote if they think there is something worth voting for.

    And they don't care one bit about Rupert Lowe.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,808
    Next PM is far more likely to be AN Other (Lab) than the odds imply.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,076
    ...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,145
    Whither now for "Sir" Rupert Lowe? Will the tapestry of our national politics be further embroidered by another far right nano-party? He can hit his target demographic by calling it Lowebrow. If the .co.uk domain is available.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,685
    edited March 8
    MattW said:

    Battlebus said:

    The BBC article on immigration today is interesting in that it compares the boat immigrants (30K) last year with the legal immigrants (700K) last year. The Vox Pop of the people of Shirebrook shed some light on the fears of the left behind. Left behind in that it was a thriving coal mining area and when the pit closed, people stayed.

    Broadly similar to the rust belt stories in the US and the rich vein that Vance and Trump are able to tap.

    Shirebrook?

    That's where Sports Direct have their warehouse.

    It also has some decent connectivity via the light rail that goes all the way to Nottingham.

    Leon is a bit like Trump ... mainly afaics engages with the voices in his own head rather than the world outside it.
    Demographics of Shirebrook before I listen to the vox-pops:

    Virtually zero non-White or Muslim. 17% non-British born - overwhelmingly EU, unless it has changed fundamentally since 2021; an easy place perhaps to feed misinformation.



    https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/eastmidlands/derbyshire/E63001666__shirebrook/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,201
    Every poll now projects a hung parliament so who becomes PM is still very much open. Most current polls still have Labour most seats so the odds are Starmer remains PM with LD and SNP and Green support.

    A few polls have had the Tories and Reform combined with a majority, in which case whichever of Badenoch or Farage won most seats would become PM. If that looked likely then Labour might replace Sir Keir with Rayner or Streeting or Cooper
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,201
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,422
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    There are no new Trump sanctions on Russia. He was talking bollocks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,201
    edited March 8

    On topic, @Dura_Ace asked the valid question on the end of the last thread - how many of the younger people attracted to Reform will actually turn out and vote for them?

    The graveyard of any political movement is reliance on non-voters. They're called non-voters because they're disengaged from politics and don't vote.

    Until something engages them. As Brexit did. I then saw the same floods of voters voting for Boris in 2019.

    These are practiced non-voters, and they can be motivated enough to vote. The Grauniad piece talks about young voters. People who haven't yet had non-voting ingrained into their psyche. These people absolutely will vote if they think there is something worth voting for.

    And they don't care one bit about Rupert Lowe.

    As the final line of that article said it is actually the middle aged where Reform do best ie ages 30 to 70 not the young. Indeed even the Greens and Tories and LDs outpoll Reform with under 30s still, albeit Reform have made some gains with young men but young women hate Farage still.

    Hence overall Labour still lead with the young, the Tories with pensioners and Reform with the middle aged. Hence our three way politics now
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,430

    What has He got banned for this time?

    Didn't he start going on about how he can't even discuss the thing we've all been told not to discuss?
    He was saying Deltics are rubbish, again?

    FFS

    Let us now contemplate the Holy Trinity


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,430

    On topic, @Dura_Ace asked the valid question on the end of the last thread - how many of the younger people attracted to Reform will actually turn out and vote for them?

    The graveyard of any political movement is reliance on non-voters. They're called non-voters because they're disengaged from politics and don't vote.

    Until something engages them. As Brexit did. I then saw the same floods of voters voting for Boris in 2019.

    These are practiced non-voters, and they can be motivated enough to vote. The Grauniad piece talks about young voters. People who haven't yet had non-voting ingrained into their psyche. These people absolutely will vote if they think there is something worth voting for.

    And they don't care one bit about Rupert Lowe.

    Did we ever get stats on the claims that Trump got non-voters out
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,503
    edited March 8
    eek said:

    What has He got banned for this time?

    Didn't he start going on about how he can't even discuss the thing we've all been told not to discuss?
    Yep dropped hints while exaggerating about the scale of the issue while saying that he couldn't talk about it.
    Just rejoice that he will be off air for an hour or twenty four. His spamming of the site with the Jenrick story the other day was particularly tiresome. Even when legal experts called Jenrick out for a disingenuous interpretation of sentencing reporting he (the banned one) resorted to very sweary insults
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    Last night there was talk of the US pulling troops out of Germany. All of Putin's Christmases are coming at once. A day or two ago people were still clinging on to the notion that Trump is not a Russian asset. As the hours tick by, holding that position becomes more troublesome.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,247
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 848

    On topic, @Dura_Ace asked the valid question on the end of the last thread - how many of the younger people attracted to Reform will actually turn out and vote for them?

    The graveyard of any political movement is reliance on non-voters. They're called non-voters because they're disengaged from politics and don't vote.

    Until something engages them. As Brexit did. I then saw the same floods of voters voting for Boris in 2019.

    These are practiced non-voters, and they can be motivated enough to vote. The Grauniad piece talks about young voters. People who haven't yet had non-voting ingrained into their psyche. These people absolutely will vote if they think there is something worth voting for.

    And they don't care one bit about Rupert Lowe.

    Did we ever get stats on the claims that Trump got non-voters out
    An argument in favour of lowering the voting age to 16 is that it increases political engagement and that those who could vote at 16 are more likely to continue voting than those who couldn't vote until 18.
    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-case-for-lowering-the-voting-age-to-16/
    Not sure if there is robust statistical backing for that argument
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,685
    edited March 8
    Dura_Ace said:

    Whither now for "Sir" Rupert Lowe? Will the tapestry of our national politics be further embroidered by another far right nano-party? He can hit his target demographic by calling it Lowebrow. If the .co.uk domain is available.

    That's a good question.

    Another one is: "Will this go to the Parliamentary Standards Enforcers?", who would presumably wait until after the police investigation. Perhaps I need to suggest it to the Reform Chief Whip.

    Perhaps we will all be wrong in our competition, and Reform will have fewer MPs by the end of the year :wink: .

    I'd say that when he leaves Parliament he'll be too old to come back.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505
    edited March 8
    HYUFD said:

    On topic, @Dura_Ace asked the valid question on the end of the last thread - how many of the younger people attracted to Reform will actually turn out and vote for them?

    The graveyard of any political movement is reliance on non-voters. They're called non-voters because they're disengaged from politics and don't vote.

    Until something engages them. As Brexit did. I then saw the same floods of voters voting for Boris in 2019.

    These are practiced non-voters, and they can be motivated enough to vote. The Grauniad piece talks about young voters. People who haven't yet had non-voting ingrained into their psyche. These people absolutely will vote if they think there is something worth voting for.

    And they don't care one bit about Rupert Lowe.

    As the final line of that article said it is actually the middle aged where Reform do best ie ages 30 to 70 not the young. Indeed even the Greens and Tories and LDs outpoll Reform with under 30s still, albeit Reform have made some gains with young men but young women hate Farage still.

    Hence overall Labour still lead with the young, the Tories with pensioners and Reform with the middle aged. Hence our three way politics now
    You are doing you usual problem of looking at today as if today will be tomorrow.

    Take the trend, project it forwards. We don't care what the polls say about an election tomorrow we're not going to have. We care about the trends played forward to the point where we actually do get an election. If you don't that's up to you. Your party used to be good at understanding the basics of political strategy. What happened?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,166
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    What new sanctions ?
    The last three years have demonstrated they make little or no difference to Russia's willingness to continue fighting. "New" sanctions is just spin.

    Halting weapons supplies and intelligence is already killing civilians. Drawing some kind of equivalence is grotesque.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,505

    What has He got banned for this time?

    Didn't he start going on about how he can't even discuss the thing we've all been told not to discuss?
    He was saying Deltics are rubbish, again?

    FFS

    Let us now contemplate the Holy Trinity


    As glorious as that engine sounds, let's be brutally honest about it. It was an anachronism at the time, its from the stone ages now.

    Sorry...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,166
    Openly taking the piss, episode 327...

    Trump’s allegedly incoming deputy FBI Director Dan Oingoboingo says he can’t take the job for another week because he’s got contractual obligations to his podcast advertisers
    https://x.com/SollenbergerRC/status/1898173041516957977
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,201
    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine

    Trumpski is denying Ukraine self defence while offering Russia the chance to rearm.

    Hard to see what else he could be doing to give Russia all of Ukraine (and more)
    Give arms and funds to Russia for starters, instead he has shifted the US to a neutral position and left Canada and Europe to fund Zelensky while he claims to push for a peace treaty
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,646
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,166
    This should excite some of our resident ethno-historians.

    Ancient genomes reveal trans-Eurasian connections between the European Huns and the Xiongnu Empire
    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2418485122
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,852
    edited March 8
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Battlebus said:

    The BBC article on immigration today is interesting in that it compares the boat immigrants (30K) last year with the legal immigrants (700K) last year. The Vox Pop of the people of Shirebrook shed some light on the fears of the left behind. Left behind in that it was a thriving coal mining area and when the pit closed, people stayed.

    Broadly similar to the rust belt stories in the US and the rich vein that Vance and Trump are able to tap.

    Shirebrook?

    That's where Sports Direct have their warehouse.

    It also has some decent connectivity via the light rail that goes all the way to Nottingham.

    Leon is a bit like Trump ... mainly afaics engages with the voices in his own head rather than the world outside it.
    Demographics of Shirebrook before I listen to the vox-pops:

    Virtually zero non-White or Muslim. 17% non-British born - overwhelmingly EU, unless it has changed fundamentally since 2021; an easy place perhaps to feed misinformation.



    https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/eastmidlands/derbyshire/E63001666__shirebrook/
    If I had to work at Sports Direct I'd be pretty angry most of the time.

    I thought there were various scandals about trafficking people to work in the warehouse?

    We certainly had similar questionmarks round here - I remember seeing an advert in the local shop for warehouse operatives which specified that knowing Russian would be an advantage (as a common language between Eastern Europeans - probably not very popular now!)

    If you are stuck in a mining town and you see this, what are you going to think?

    The original 'new business' in mining towns was of course call centres, but they mostly got shut down and moved offshore, or operations moved online.

    I am actually hopeful that things are getting better now but it is a slow process.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,076
    HYUFD said:

    Give arms and funds to Russia for starters

    Are you counting satellite imagery?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,201
    edited March 8

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, @Dura_Ace asked the valid question on the end of the last thread - how many of the younger people attracted to Reform will actually turn out and vote for them?

    The graveyard of any political movement is reliance on non-voters. They're called non-voters because they're disengaged from politics and don't vote.

    Until something engages them. As Brexit did. I then saw the same floods of voters voting for Boris in 2019.

    These are practiced non-voters, and they can be motivated enough to vote. The Grauniad piece talks about young voters. People who haven't yet had non-voting ingrained into their psyche. These people absolutely will vote if they think there is something worth voting for.

    And they don't care one bit about Rupert Lowe.

    As the final line of that article said it is actually the middle aged where Reform do best ie ages 30 to 70 not the young. Indeed even the Greens and Tories and LDs outpoll Reform with under 30s still, albeit Reform have made some gains with young men but young women hate Farage still.

    Hence overall Labour still lead with the young, the Tories with pensioners and Reform with the middle aged. Hence our three way politics now
    You are doing you usual problem of looking at today as if today will be tomorrow.

    Take the trend, project it forwards. We don't care what the polls say about an election tomorrow we're not going to have. We care about the trends played forward to the point where we actually do get an election. If you don't that's up to you. Your party used to be good at understanding the basics of political strategy. What happened?
    The trend being Reform are making gains amongst the middle aged most as I said and smaller gains amongst over 65s, despite some gains with young men even the Tories have made bigger gains with under 25s than Reform since the last GE
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,503
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine

    Trumpski is denying Ukraine self defence while offering Russia the chance to rearm.

    Hard to see what else he could be doing to give Russia all of Ukraine (and more)
    Give arms and funds to Russia for starters, instead he has shifted the US to a neutral position and left Canada and Europe to fund Zelensky while he claims to push for a peace treaty
    You are in bridge buying territory there HY.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,076

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.

    Kings are like that...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,430

    What has He got banned for this time?

    Didn't he start going on about how he can't even discuss the thing we've all been told not to discuss?
    He was saying Deltics are rubbish, again?

    FFS

    Let us now contemplate the Holy Trinity


    As glorious as that engine sounds, let's be brutally honest about it. It was an anachronism at the time, its from the stone ages now.

    Sorry...
    Heretic. Burn him for the sake of his soul.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,956
    Andrew Neil a Fcking Fool

    by

    Andrew Neil

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/1898275682880270640

    I suspect there will be very little humility shown by Brillo after yet another complete misreading of the facts.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,247
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine

    Trumpski is denying Ukraine self defence while offering Russia the chance to rearm.

    Hard to see what else he could be doing to give Russia all of Ukraine (and more)
    Give arms and funds to Russia for starters, instead he has shifted the US to a neutral position and left Canada and Europe to fund Zelensky while he claims to push for a peace treaty
    Trump is not neutral. He supports Russian war aims.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,000
    kjh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    William Atkinson's resignation article in ConHome. He's a bit...anguished.

    https://conservativehome.com/2025/03/04/living-on-a-thin-line/

    The social contract is broken. Before me lies a future of personal immiseration, demographic revolution, and global war. I just want the same lives my parents had. I want a Britain that is vaguely civilised, not a bankrupt, self-loathing, and crime-ridden Yookay

    He may be disappointed in that case. But is definitely sounding the alarm.

    Too many in our party don’t quite realise just how much we’re hated. MPs are blinded by survivorship bias. Labour’s travails lull them into a false sense of smug security, rather than waking them up to how volatile politics has become. They write Reform off as a passing fad, and assume that since we’ve made it through 300-odd years, that we have a divine right to exist.

    We do not. We are dying on our feet.
    That’s the problem.

    So many people on the right have persuaded themselves that living in a flawed, but free and prosperous democracy, is the worst fate that can befall a nation.

    It used to be the far left which was this fucking stupid.
    Because your diagnosis of the uk is fucking bullshit
    You’re a paranoid rich man, who’s persuaded himself he lives in the worst of times.

    My grandparents faced much worse, with a lot more fortitude.
    I've faced much worse.
    My 10 year old daughter came home from school the other day concerned because people had been telling her Putin was going to drop a bomb on Britain. Which he might. But is struck me that for my childhood, the threat of annihilation was the constant background noise. As was discussed earlier, the USSR's plans for the destruction of the world were so comprehensive they even made time to wipe out New Zealand.
    Objectively, today is a far better time to be alive than the early 80s.
    I remember being scared witless by The War Game and Threads.
    @leon often accuses us of being centrist dads, but in reality he is a centrist granddad. He reminds me of those oldies who always say it was better in the good old days. It wasn't. Not by a long chalk. I grew up in a house without a bathroom and an outside loo and no central heating and where we were constantly reminded of nuclear destruction and smog and rationing was a recent memory of my parents.

    The good old days were not good compared to any time since.
    Its a fair point. I do think things have gotten a bit worse in the last 10 years, but the past wasnt rosy.

    Even kings used to shit in buckets, the past sucked.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,505
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    "The US is supplying Russia with intelligence" is one step further than I've seen so far. I'd be interested to know if that is being claimed somewhere, as it would be a very big further step over another line by Trump.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,000

    Interesting.

    John Bolton is tonight saying EU moves to kind of replace NATO are a mistake as it gives Trump a good way to say 'there you go, you don't need us'

    What's the alternative? The USA is now in bed with Putin, it cannot be trusted.

  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 848
    edited March 8

    Andrew Neil a Fcking Fool

    by

    Andrew Neil

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/1898275682880270640

    I suspect there will be very little humility shown by Brillo after yet another complete misreading of the facts.

    the national was there a fortnight ago with embarassing links
    https://www.thenational.scot/news/24952082.andrew-neil-left-distressed-donald-trumps-dictator-slur/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,927

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    It is a big mistake to think of it as just one man. Vance is pro Russia for different reasons than Trump. Musk pro Russia for other reasons too. So the top three of the government are aligned on the issue. Many of the multi billionaires behind it also see international institutions and the western coalition as a block on their power and wealth.

    And half the country voted for it, many (not all) understanding what they were getting.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,000

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    And even his domestic opponents seem cowed and oddly passive about it. Like, they are outraged, but in an exhausted way.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,927
    kle4 said:

    Interesting.

    John Bolton is tonight saying EU moves to kind of replace NATO are a mistake as it gives Trump a good way to say 'there you go, you don't need us'

    What's the alternative? The USA is now in bed with Putin, it cannot be trusted.

    Indeed. When all paths have negatives it is easy to criticise and end up with inertia and the status quo even if that is more damaging/risky than alternatives. If he tells us how to navigate it successfully with limited risk then I'm all ears, but he won't.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,422
    kle4 said:

    kjh said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    viewcode said:

    William Atkinson's resignation article in ConHome. He's a bit...anguished.

    https://conservativehome.com/2025/03/04/living-on-a-thin-line/

    The social contract is broken. Before me lies a future of personal immiseration, demographic revolution, and global war. I just want the same lives my parents had. I want a Britain that is vaguely civilised, not a bankrupt, self-loathing, and crime-ridden Yookay

    He may be disappointed in that case. But is definitely sounding the alarm.

    Too many in our party don’t quite realise just how much we’re hated. MPs are blinded by survivorship bias. Labour’s travails lull them into a false sense of smug security, rather than waking them up to how volatile politics has become. They write Reform off as a passing fad, and assume that since we’ve made it through 300-odd years, that we have a divine right to exist.

    We do not. We are dying on our feet.
    That’s the problem.

    So many people on the right have persuaded themselves that living in a flawed, but free and prosperous democracy, is the worst fate that can befall a nation.

    It used to be the far left which was this fucking stupid.
    Because your diagnosis of the uk is fucking bullshit
    You’re a paranoid rich man, who’s persuaded himself he lives in the worst of times.

    My grandparents faced much worse, with a lot more fortitude.
    I've faced much worse.
    My 10 year old daughter came home from school the other day concerned because people had been telling her Putin was going to drop a bomb on Britain. Which he might. But is struck me that for my childhood, the threat of annihilation was the constant background noise. As was discussed earlier, the USSR's plans for the destruction of the world were so comprehensive they even made time to wipe out New Zealand.
    Objectively, today is a far better time to be alive than the early 80s.
    I remember being scared witless by The War Game and Threads.
    @leon often accuses us of being centrist dads, but in reality he is a centrist granddad. He reminds me of those oldies who always say it was better in the good old days. It wasn't. Not by a long chalk. I grew up in a house without a bathroom and an outside loo and no central heating and where we were constantly reminded of nuclear destruction and smog and rationing was a recent memory of my parents.

    The good old days were not good compared to any time since.
    Its a fair point. I do think things have gotten a bit worse in the last 10 years, but the past wasnt rosy.

    Even kings used to shit in buckets, the past sucked.
    I’ll save LuckyGuy the effort: “got” a bit worse.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,685
    edited March 8

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Battlebus said:

    The BBC article on immigration today is interesting in that it compares the boat immigrants (30K) last year with the legal immigrants (700K) last year. The Vox Pop of the people of Shirebrook shed some light on the fears of the left behind. Left behind in that it was a thriving coal mining area and when the pit closed, people stayed.

    Broadly similar to the rust belt stories in the US and the rich vein that Vance and Trump are able to tap.

    Shirebrook?

    That's where Sports Direct have their warehouse.

    It also has some decent connectivity via the light rail that goes all the way to Nottingham.

    Leon is a bit like Trump ... mainly afaics engages with the voices in his own head rather than the world outside it.
    Demographics of Shirebrook before I listen to the vox-pops:

    Virtually zero non-White or Muslim. 17% non-British born - overwhelmingly EU, unless it has changed fundamentally since 2021; an easy place perhaps to feed misinformation.



    https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/eastmidlands/derbyshire/E63001666__shirebrook/
    If I had to work at Sports Direct I'd be pretty angry most of the time.

    I thought there were various scandals about trafficking people to work in the warehouse?

    We certainly had similar questionmarks round here - I remember seeing an advert in the local shop for warehouse operatives which specified that knowing Russian would be an advantage (as a common language between Eastern Europeans - probably not very popular now!)

    If you are stuck in a mining town and you see this, what are you going to think?

    The original 'new business' in mining towns was of course call centres, but they mostly got shut down and moved offshore, or operations moved online.

    I am actually hopeful that things are getting better now but it is a slow process.
    From what I have noted, Shirebrook may potentially be affected by the policy of eg London Boroughs / Birmingham to shunt people out of their areas to private rentals in the provinces with the help of "search" companies - with the aim of saving on their Housing Benefit budget.

    It's not massive numbers but has been mentioned on PB, and would cause a lot of resentment which the Right could use as a wedge issue.

    Beyond that I have noted issues in Shirebrook around crude conversions to high density HMOs a few years ago - including at least one instances of rooms split in half down the middle of windows visible from the street. Again, potentially emotive and requires addressing.

    I think that one will adjust as Eastern Europe catches up economically. There have been scandals and media investigations, but I'm not aware of anything utterly blatant by Sports Direct themselves - but I could have missed it.

    We had a particular LL who invested here from the south (an accountant I assume burnishing his pension) and tried to do several low quality high-density conversions like that, but afaics has gone away again after some opposition via local politics.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,857
    Morning PB.

    Further to yesterday's discussion, Yarvin and Thiel seem to be the terrible duopoly. Yarvin has explicitly laid out a plan many times for first a purging of the U.S. government employees, a crackdown on academia , and then ignoring the courts, as a prelude to "Caesarism".

    Thiel provided the ideas for the technofuturist side ; democracy is incompatible with freedom and leadership for the tech monarchy, who will provide the shape and framework the new society.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,760
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, @Dura_Ace asked the valid question on the end of the last thread - how many of the younger people attracted to Reform will actually turn out and vote for them?

    The graveyard of any political movement is reliance on non-voters. They're called non-voters because they're disengaged from politics and don't vote.

    Until something engages them. As Brexit did. I then saw the same floods of voters voting for Boris in 2019.

    These are practiced non-voters, and they can be motivated enough to vote. The Grauniad piece talks about young voters. People who haven't yet had non-voting ingrained into their psyche. These people absolutely will vote if they think there is something worth voting for.

    And they don't care one bit about Rupert Lowe.

    As the final line of that article said it is actually the middle aged where Reform do best ie ages 30 to 70 not the young. Indeed even the Greens and Tories and LDs outpoll Reform with under 30s still, albeit Reform have made some gains with young men but young women hate Farage still.

    Hence overall Labour still lead with the young, the Tories with pensioners and Reform with the middle aged. Hence our three way politics now
    You are doing you usual problem of looking at today as if today will be tomorrow.

    Take the trend, project it forwards. We don't care what the polls say about an election tomorrow we're not going to have. We care about the trends played forward to the point where we actually do get an election. If you don't that's up to you. Your party used to be good at understanding the basics of political strategy. What happened?
    The trend being Reform are making gains amongst the middle aged most as I said and smaller gains amongst over 65s, despite some gains with young men even the Tories have made bigger gains with under 25s than Reform since the last GE
    Good morning

    You do seem to have this habit of ignoring 'events' and I would gently suggest that Reform have a real crisis as they tear each other apart and the public will notice

    Also they are NOA but in an election it may well be anybody but Reform
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,644

    kle4 said:

    Interesting.

    John Bolton is tonight saying EU moves to kind of replace NATO are a mistake as it gives Trump a good way to say 'there you go, you don't need us'

    What's the alternative? The USA is now in bed with Putin, it cannot be trusted.

    Indeed. When all paths have negatives it is easy to criticise and end up with inertia and the status quo even if that is more damaging/risky than alternatives. If he tells us how to navigate it successfully with limited risk then I'm all ears, but he won't.
    SFAICS the covert European policy is to take Trump's order to rearm in a twofold way: it had to be done anyway, so it's a spur to sane action in a traditional NATO context; but also it gives cover for non-USA NATO countries to prepare, including in a nuclear way, for USA isolationism. They are right.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,291
    edited March 8
    RUK out like a barge in the GE betting. 2.9 last week, heading towards 4 now. I did say to lay at that price. Still a sell now imo. I feel like I'm back, with my judgement, after that little setback on Nov 5th.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,422
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    And even his domestic opponents seem cowed and oddly passive about it. Like, they are outraged, but in an exhausted way.
    This really is a noticeable phenomenon. All the fight has left them. I think it’s the legacy of the hope that came with seeing him off in 2020, the assumption he’d be banged up in prison by now, and all that blown away in this whirlwind.

    It’s not the first time. Look at the abject state of Hungarian opposition after so many years of hopes being dashed. Or the now submissive Hong Kongers. I get the same sort of shrugging acceptance speaking to anti-Erdogan Turks too. The Georgians aren’t there yet but the sheer doggedness of Ivanishvili will eventually wear them out.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,422
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Interesting.

    John Bolton is tonight saying EU moves to kind of replace NATO are a mistake as it gives Trump a good way to say 'there you go, you don't need us'

    What's the alternative? The USA is now in bed with Putin, it cannot be trusted.

    Indeed. When all paths have negatives it is easy to criticise and end up with inertia and the status quo even if that is more damaging/risky than alternatives. If he tells us how to navigate it successfully with limited risk then I'm all ears, but he won't.
    SFAICS the covert European policy is to take Trump's order to rearm in a twofold way: it had to be done anyway, so it's a spur to sane action in a traditional NATO context; but also it gives cover for non-USA NATO countries to prepare, including in a nuclear way, for USA isolationism. They are right.
    There needs to be a cost of all this to the US defence industry. If you’re stepping away from common defence you can’t expect guaranteed customers for your military hardware.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,134
    I was wondering this morning how long it will be before we see some of the US intelligence service people claiming asylum in other NATO countries because they were being asked to pass intelligence to the Russians.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,808

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, @Dura_Ace asked the valid question on the end of the last thread - how many of the younger people attracted to Reform will actually turn out and vote for them?

    The graveyard of any political movement is reliance on non-voters. They're called non-voters because they're disengaged from politics and don't vote.

    Until something engages them. As Brexit did. I then saw the same floods of voters voting for Boris in 2019.

    These are practiced non-voters, and they can be motivated enough to vote. The Grauniad piece talks about young voters. People who haven't yet had non-voting ingrained into their psyche. These people absolutely will vote if they think there is something worth voting for.

    And they don't care one bit about Rupert Lowe.

    As the final line of that article said it is actually the middle aged where Reform do best ie ages 30 to 70 not the young. Indeed even the Greens and Tories and LDs outpoll Reform with under 30s still, albeit Reform have made some gains with young men but young women hate Farage still.

    Hence overall Labour still lead with the young, the Tories with pensioners and Reform with the middle aged. Hence our three way politics now
    You are doing you usual problem of looking at today as if today will be tomorrow.

    Take the trend, project it forwards. We don't care what the polls say about an election tomorrow we're not going to have. We care about the trends played forward to the point where we actually do get an election. If you don't that's up to you. Your party used to be good at understanding the basics of political strategy. What happened?
    The trend being Reform are making gains amongst the middle aged most as I said and smaller gains amongst over 65s, despite some gains with young men even the Tories have made bigger gains with under 25s than Reform since the last GE
    Good morning

    You do seem to have this habit of ignoring 'events' and I would gently suggest that Reform have a real crisis as they tear each other apart and the public will notice

    Also they are NOA but in an election it may well be anybody but Reform
    There was a little of that in a couple of Thursday's by elections.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,182
    Dura_Ace said:

    Whither now for "Sir" Rupert Lowe? Will the tapestry of our national politics be further embroidered by another far right nano-party? He can hit his target demographic by calling it Lowebrow. If the .co.uk domain is available.

    I do have a slight wondering whether he'll join the Tories. I suppose it depends if there's anything in these tales of bullying.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,422

    I was wondering this morning how long it will be before we see some of the US intelligence service people claiming asylum in other NATO countries because they were being asked to pass intelligence to the Russians.

    Hopefully soon, hopefully we won’t hear about it, and hopefully armed with some useful intel.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,808
    If I were a billionaire, an overhaul of the system which made me one would be low down my list of priorities.
    What is wrong with these people?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,857
    Bear in mind thaf Musk and Vance are close to both Thiel and Yarvin, to provide the context here.

    https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/16/24266512/jd-vance-curtis-yarvin-influence-rage-project-2025
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,422
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, @Dura_Ace asked the valid question on the end of the last thread - how many of the younger people attracted to Reform will actually turn out and vote for them?

    The graveyard of any political movement is reliance on non-voters. They're called non-voters because they're disengaged from politics and don't vote.

    Until something engages them. As Brexit did. I then saw the same floods of voters voting for Boris in 2019.

    These are practiced non-voters, and they can be motivated enough to vote. The Grauniad piece talks about young voters. People who haven't yet had non-voting ingrained into their psyche. These people absolutely will vote if they think there is something worth voting for.

    And they don't care one bit about Rupert Lowe.

    As the final line of that article said it is actually the middle aged where Reform do best ie ages 30 to 70 not the young. Indeed even the Greens and Tories and LDs outpoll Reform with under 30s still, albeit Reform have made some gains with young men but young women hate Farage still.

    Hence overall Labour still lead with the young, the Tories with pensioners and Reform with the middle aged. Hence our three way politics now
    You are doing you usual problem of looking at today as if today will be tomorrow.

    Take the trend, project it forwards. We don't care what the polls say about an election tomorrow we're not going to have. We care about the trends played forward to the point where we actually do get an election. If you don't that's up to you. Your party used to be good at understanding the basics of political strategy. What happened?
    The trend being Reform are making gains amongst the middle aged most as I said and smaller gains amongst over 65s, despite some gains with young men even the Tories have made bigger gains with under 25s than Reform since the last GE
    Good morning

    You do seem to have this habit of ignoring 'events' and I would gently suggest that Reform have a real crisis as they tear each other apart and the public will notice

    Also they are NOA but in an election it may well be anybody but Reform
    There was a little of that in a couple of Thursday's by elections.
    It’s FPTP using voters to devise its own version of the German firewall.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,000
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    And even his domestic opponents seem cowed and oddly passive about it. Like, they are outraged, but in an exhausted way.
    This really is a noticeable phenomenon. All the fight has left them. I think it’s the legacy of the hope that came with seeing him off in 2020, the assumption he’d be banged up in prison by now, and all that blown away in this whirlwind.

    It’s not the first time. Look at the abject state of Hungarian opposition after so many years of hopes being dashed. Or the now submissive Hong Kongers. I get the same sort of shrugging acceptance speaking to anti-Erdogan Turks too. The Georgians aren’t there yet but the sheer doggedness of Ivanishvili will eventually wear them out.
    Yes, a determined opponent with sufficient support behind them can beat down optimism and hope, more often than not. The times it doesn't happen makes for great stories, but people are only human, and humans can put up with very horrible situations, we are very resilient.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,000
    Sean_F said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    "The US is supplying Russia with intelligence" is one step further than I've seen so far. I'd be interested to know if that is being claimed somewhere, as it would be a very big further step over another line by Trump.
    A friend who I think is in the know says we
    should assume that everything the US knows about Ukrainian operations, morale, and equipment is being forwarded to Russia.

    Much as I loathe Trump, I think I have even more contempt for the Republican “mainstream” who have become his willing enablers.
    He and Vance are doing what they think is right, which I totally disagree with. People like Rubio, Graham, and others, used to believe other things which, whether we also disagreed or not, was at least sincere.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,394
    dixiedean said:

    If I were a billionaire, an overhaul of the system which made me one would be low down my list of priorities.
    What is wrong with these people?

    Either they think they've found an easy way to make their second billion or they are frightened of losing the billion they have.

    The problem for Elon is that he is destroying his brain via Ketamine so he probably is making decisions that he thinks will generate more money for him when the exact opposite may be the truth.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,000
    dixiedean said:

    If I were a billionaire, an overhaul of the system which made me one would be low down my list of priorities.
    What is wrong with these people?

    You don't get to that position without always wanting more?

    Or when they have so much money and power they search for more meaning to life, hence messianic fervour for whatever stupid techbro idea they just read online 5 minutes ago?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,000

    Dura_Ace said:

    Whither now for "Sir" Rupert Lowe? Will the tapestry of our national politics be further embroidered by another far right nano-party? He can hit his target demographic by calling it Lowebrow. If the .co.uk domain is available.

    I do have a slight wondering whether he'll join the Tories. I suppose it depends if there's anything in these tales of bullying.
    Reform has always hit the Tories pretty hard for obvious reasons, which presumably includes Lowe himself doing so - doesn't mean he couldn't make the switch, but it seems more common for splitters (the voluntary and involuntary kind) to go solo or try for their own vanity outfit.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,123

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    Obama pushed for military cooperation with Russia and called them a strategic partner over Iran.

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/us-russia-relations-reset-fact-sheet
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,247

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    Obama pushed for military cooperation with Russia and called them a strategic partner over Iran.

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/us-russia-relations-reset-fact-sheet
    He never went all-in, on Russia’s side.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,000
    kinabalu said:

    Andrew Neil a Fcking Fool

    by

    Andrew Neil

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/1898275682880270640

    I suspect there will be very little humility shown by Brillo after yet another complete misreading of the facts.

    The people accused for years of having "TDS" were those who called Trump right and I'm proud to be in that number.
    I don't think we've all caught up in how bad it truly is this time. Few in the UK actively liked Trump, but even most who didn't would not have seriously believed things like military and intelligence co-operation would become genuine security risks, or that Trump would not merely pivot to entente with Russia, but side with it over longstanding allies.

    The very fact national leaders are reacting so seriously and quickly is unprecedented, the USA is about one step down from Russia and China as malign actors now, and that's likely only because Trump has not yet finished moulding its governmental apparatus to bend entirely to his whims.

    He will though.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,927
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    If I were a billionaire, an overhaul of the system which made me one would be low down my list of priorities.
    What is wrong with these people?

    You don't get to that position without always wanting more?

    Or when they have so much money and power they search for more meaning to life, hence messianic fervour for whatever stupid techbro idea they just read online 5 minutes ago?
    Billionaires are all different too. Gates and Buffett are amongst the worlds biggest aid donors including major countries.

    The advances in AI and biotech are important in this. It is quite plausible the winners of those races may end up with a level of power never seen before in human history. That is one of the big drivers of the broligarchies need for more power and fewer restrictions on their activities.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,864
    kinabalu said:

    Andrew Neil a Fcking Fool

    by

    Andrew Neil

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/1898275682880270640

    I suspect there will be very little humility shown by Brillo after yet another complete misreading of the facts.

    The people accused for years of having "TDS" were those who called Trump right and I'm proud to be in that number.
    As with Musk Derangement Syndrome; the deranged are those who like and approve of the person. Those who disagree with Musk and Trump are the sane ones...
  • eekeek Posts: 29,394
    Now I understand how logistics work but I'm waiting for a parcel to arrive whose journey has been

    Sheffield > Leeds > Derby > Teesside. it's gone along the same part of the M1 3 times in the past 24 hours...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,430
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Battlebus said:

    The BBC article on immigration today is interesting in that it compares the boat immigrants (30K) last year with the legal immigrants (700K) last year. The Vox Pop of the people of Shirebrook shed some light on the fears of the left behind. Left behind in that it was a thriving coal mining area and when the pit closed, people stayed.

    Broadly similar to the rust belt stories in the US and the rich vein that Vance and Trump are able to tap.

    Shirebrook?

    That's where Sports Direct have their warehouse.

    It also has some decent connectivity via the light rail that goes all the way to Nottingham.

    Leon is a bit like Trump ... mainly afaics engages with the voices in his own head rather than the world outside it.
    Demographics of Shirebrook before I listen to the vox-pops:

    Virtually zero non-White or Muslim. 17% non-British born - overwhelmingly EU, unless it has changed fundamentally since 2021; an easy place perhaps to feed misinformation.



    https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/eastmidlands/derbyshire/E63001666__shirebrook/
    If I had to work at Sports Direct I'd be pretty angry most of the time.

    I thought there were various scandals about trafficking people to work in the warehouse?

    We certainly had similar questionmarks round here - I remember seeing an advert in the local shop for warehouse operatives which specified that knowing Russian would be an advantage (as a common language between Eastern Europeans - probably not very popular now!)

    If you are stuck in a mining town and you see this, what are you going to think?

    The original 'new business' in mining towns was of course call centres, but they mostly got shut down and moved offshore, or operations moved online.

    I am actually hopeful that things are getting better now but it is a slow process.
    From what I have noted, Shirebrook may potentially be affected by the policy of eg London Boroughs / Birmingham to shunt people out of their areas to private rentals in the provinces with the help of "search" companies - with the aim of saving on their Housing Benefit budget.

    It's not massive numbers but has been mentioned on PB, and would cause a lot of resentment which the Right could use as a wedge issue.

    Beyond that I have noted issues in Shirebrook around crude conversions to high density HMOs a few years ago - including at least one instances of rooms split in half down the middle of windows visible from the street. Again, potentially emotive and requires addressing.

    I think that one will adjust as Eastern Europe catches up economically. There have been scandals and media investigations, but I'm not aware of anything utterly blatant by Sports Direct themselves - but I could have missed it.

    We had a particular LL who invested here from the south (an accountant I assume burnishing his pension) and tried to do several low quality high-density conversions like that, but afaics has gone away again after some opposition via local politics.
    I knew of a chap running a factory, not far from Norfolk. Half his family was from the Baltics. Spoke the language. So he imported all the workers for his small factory from there. Made sure they *didn’t* speak English.

    When they learnt English and started demanding proper pay, safety, employment rights etc. he would replace them with more from the same source…

    One of the problems in the US is the fact that they are actually a First, Second and Near-Third world country all at the same time.

    At the bottom end, you could be in rural Guatemala, in terms of the social care etc. At the top end you are on Elysium.

    I’m not very sure this is a good way to run a society.

    Denial of this structure is very strong. With “you are blaming immigrants” being one of the protections for it.

    And so we let companies sell visas for the U.K. at outrageous rates. Which rather reminds me of the way the pub companies sell being a landlord to the gullible.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,685
    edited March 8

    Bear in mind thaf Musk and Vance are close to both Thiel and Yarvin, to provide the context here.

    https://www.theverge.com/2024/10/16/24266512/jd-vance-curtis-yarvin-influence-rage-project-2025

    Cheers.

    Thiel was with Musk as an investor in Paypal; he was onboard in the late 1990s.

    The political and wealthy Vances are both creations of Thiel. Thiel is also a lawyer.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,244
    edited March 8
    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    And even his domestic opponents seem cowed and oddly passive about it. Like, they are outraged, but in an exhausted way.
    This really is a noticeable phenomenon. All the fight has left them. I think it’s the legacy of the hope that came with seeing him off in 2020, the assumption he’d be banged up in prison by now, and all that blown away in this whirlwind.

    It’s not the first time. Look at the abject state of Hungarian opposition after so many years of hopes being dashed. Or the now submissive Hong Kongers. I get the same sort of shrugging acceptance speaking to anti-Erdogan Turks too. The Georgians aren’t there yet but the sheer doggedness of Ivanishvili will eventually wear them out.
    Yes, a determined opponent with sufficient support behind them can beat down optimism and hope, more often than not. The times it doesn't happen makes for great stories, but people are only human, and humans can put up with very horrible situations, we are very resilient.
    Morning All! Bright and sunny here again.
    Would that the world were!

    I hope (that's all I can do, and it's becoming somewhat forlorn) that the US Democrats will find their voice again and that the US will return to some semblance of constitutional government.
    It seems clear that's far as Ukraine is concerned, the US has changed sides; the news from Kursk is particularly bad.
    The decision on USAID is dreadful; there's a story in today's Guardian about Afghan girls in serious danger of being returned from their Omani university to Afghanistan, where, clearly there's no prospect whatsoever of them being able to continue their studies. And that's just one, I'm certain, of thousand such.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,182
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Whither now for "Sir" Rupert Lowe? Will the tapestry of our national politics be further embroidered by another far right nano-party? He can hit his target demographic by calling it Lowebrow. If the .co.uk domain is available.

    I do have a slight wondering whether he'll join the Tories. I suppose it depends if there's anything in these tales of bullying.
    Reform has always hit the Tories pretty hard for obvious reasons, which presumably includes Lowe himself doing so - doesn't mean he couldn't make the switch, but it seems more common for splitters (the voluntary and involuntary kind) to go solo or try for their own vanity outfit.
    He just strikes me as a BOO Tory like Douglas Carswell.

    As a Reform supporter its incredibly disappointing - it massively throws them off course and I think all sides should be deeply regretful. I am not sure he'd be happy for long in any party he wasn't running.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 561
    edited March 8
    The effects of Trump and the sentiments appearing from the transatlantic earthquake take time to percolate through the electorate. Most people don't follow news the way we do and it takes months for events to take hold and impact voting behaviour - as this is a big strategic question rather than merely a personal scandal. I suspect Reforms numbers are going to drop as people think through what they have stood for over the last years (policies that have weakened us economically and in terms of defense) and as people see the effect of the DOGE/Truss style economic collapse in the US. I also look forward to the next yougov and Statista brexit polls. I suspect leave is in for a further bloodbath.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,272
    Battlebus said:

    The BBC article on immigration today is interesting in that it compares the boat immigrants (30K) last year with the legal immigrants (700K) last year. The Vox Pop of the people of Shirebrook shed some light on the fears of the left behind. Left behind in that it was a thriving coal mining area and when the pit closed, people stayed.

    Broadly similar to the rust belt stories in the US and the rich vein that Vance and Trump are able to tap.

    Former industrial areas but significantly different because of the difference in distances.

    Shirebrook is near the M1, close to both Mansfield and Chesterfield and less than an hour from either Sheffield or Nottingham.

    Whereas the American rustbelt is depopulating the old coalfields of Yorkshire and the Midlands are filled with new housing estates.

    https://www.lindenhomes.co.uk/developments/derbyshire/pleasley-view-shirebrook
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,291
    edited March 8
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andrew Neil a Fcking Fool

    by

    Andrew Neil

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/1898275682880270640

    I suspect there will be very little humility shown by Brillo after yet another complete misreading of the facts.

    The people accused for years of having "TDS" were those who called Trump right and I'm proud to be in that number.
    I don't think we've all caught up in how bad it truly is this time. Few in the UK actively liked Trump, but even most who didn't would not have seriously believed things like military and intelligence co-operation would become genuine security risks, or that Trump would not merely pivot to entente with Russia, but side with it over longstanding allies.

    The very fact national leaders are reacting so seriously and quickly is unprecedented, the USA is about one step down from Russia and China as malign actors now, and that's likely only because Trump has not yet finished moulding its governmental apparatus to bend entirely to his whims.

    He will though.
    I think people took false comfort from his first term which was more joke than catastrophe. Also, if you're that way inclined, part of his 'vibe' (eg on woke) was appealing and this caused some backwards over bending to avoid seeing the grisly truth.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,864
    dixiedean said:

    If I were a billionaire, an overhaul of the system which made me one would be low down my list of priorities.
    What is wrong with these people?

    Several of them became rich by being disruptors, or waiting for events and tech that would disrupt existing markets.

    They see disruption as having made them their wealth, and, at best, disruption as a way of making us all richer. Probably more realistically, they see disruption as making themselves richer, and forging a world *they* want - and their world is about them, not the rest of us.

    What we are seeing in the US government is a great disruption. Sadly, I don't think their vision for what emerges from the other end of the disruption is solidified, or even sane.

    I also fear they have not realised that there is a good chance that this massive disruption will end up with their necks in the noose. Perhaps literally. For it is not so much a disruption as a revolution; and revolutions often devour their own children.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,394
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Battlebus said:

    The BBC article on immigration today is interesting in that it compares the boat immigrants (30K) last year with the legal immigrants (700K) last year. The Vox Pop of the people of Shirebrook shed some light on the fears of the left behind. Left behind in that it was a thriving coal mining area and when the pit closed, people stayed.

    Broadly similar to the rust belt stories in the US and the rich vein that Vance and Trump are able to tap.

    Shirebrook?

    That's where Sports Direct have their warehouse.

    It also has some decent connectivity via the light rail that goes all the way to Nottingham.

    Leon is a bit like Trump ... mainly afaics engages with the voices in his own head rather than the world outside it.
    Demographics of Shirebrook before I listen to the vox-pops:

    Virtually zero non-White or Muslim. 17% non-British born - overwhelmingly EU, unless it has changed fundamentally since 2021; an easy place perhaps to feed misinformation.



    https://www.citypopulation.de/en/uk/eastmidlands/derbyshire/E63001666__shirebrook/
    If I had to work at Sports Direct I'd be pretty angry most of the time.

    I thought there were various scandals about trafficking people to work in the warehouse?

    We certainly had similar questionmarks round here - I remember seeing an advert in the local shop for warehouse operatives which specified that knowing Russian would be an advantage (as a common language between Eastern Europeans - probably not very popular now!)

    If you are stuck in a mining town and you see this, what are you going to think?

    The original 'new business' in mining towns was of course call centres, but they mostly got shut down and moved offshore, or operations moved online.

    I am actually hopeful that things are getting better now but it is a slow process.
    From what I have noted, Shirebrook may potentially be affected by the policy of eg London Boroughs / Birmingham to shunt people out of their areas to private rentals in the provinces with the help of "search" companies - with the aim of saving on their Housing Benefit budget.

    It's not massive numbers but has been mentioned on PB, and would cause a lot of resentment which the Right could use as a wedge issue.

    Beyond that I have noted issues in Shirebrook around crude conversions to high density HMOs a few years ago - including at least one instances of rooms split in half down the middle of windows visible from the street. Again, potentially emotive and requires addressing.

    I think that one will adjust as Eastern Europe catches up economically. There have been scandals and media investigations, but I'm not aware of anything utterly blatant by Sports Direct themselves - but I could have missed it.

    We had a particular LL who invested here from the south (an accountant I assume burnishing his pension) and tried to do several low quality high-density conversions like that, but afaics has gone away again after some opposition via local politics.
    I've mentioned that a few times in the past with people being dumped in places like Easington and Ferryhill / Spennymoor where housing is cheap but the facilities and transport links to escape don't exist.



  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,123

    The effects of Trump and the sentiments appearing from the transatlantic earthquake take time to percolate through the electorate. Most people don't follow news the way we do and it takes months for events to take hold and impact voting behaviour. I suspect. Reforms numbers are going to drop as people think through what they have stood for over the last years (policies that have weakened us economically and in terms of defense) and as people see the effect of the DOGE/Truss style economic collapse in the US. I also look forward to the next yougov and Statista brexit polls. I suspect leve is i. For a further bloodbath.

    The London summit shows that predictions that Brexit would render the UK irrelevant were categorically wrong.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,182
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    Obama pushed for military cooperation with Russia and called them a strategic partner over Iran.

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/us-russia-relations-reset-fact-sheet
    He never went all-in, on Russia’s side.
    I don't think he has gone all in on the Russian side. The negotiation with Russia hasn't started - he's decided he must get the Ukrainians to agree first. This undermining of their position is to secure that. It's a lot more than I would be comfortable doing, but it's a sort of strategy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,000

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Whither now for "Sir" Rupert Lowe? Will the tapestry of our national politics be further embroidered by another far right nano-party? He can hit his target demographic by calling it Lowebrow. If the .co.uk domain is available.

    I do have a slight wondering whether he'll join the Tories. I suppose it depends if there's anything in these tales of bullying.
    Reform has always hit the Tories pretty hard for obvious reasons, which presumably includes Lowe himself doing so - doesn't mean he couldn't make the switch, but it seems more common for splitters (the voluntary and involuntary kind) to go solo or try for their own vanity outfit.
    He just strikes me as a BOO Tory like Douglas Carswell.

    As a Reform supporter its incredibly disappointing - it massively throws them off course and I think all sides should be deeply regretful. I am not sure he'd be happy for long in any party he wasn't running.
    Big personalities, small numbers of MPs, always a risk I suppose.

    The Greens probably avoid this due to being so established as an identity, even if they were small for a long time.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,298

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    Obama pushed for military cooperation with Russia and called them a strategic partner over Iran.

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/us-russia-relations-reset-fact-sheet
    He never went all-in, on Russia’s side.
    I don't think he has gone all in on the Russian side. The negotiation with Russia hasn't started - he's decided he must get the Ukrainians to agree first. This undermining of their position is to secure that. It's a lot more than I would be comfortable doing, but it's a sort of strategy.
    It's treachery.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,430

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    If I were a billionaire, an overhaul of the system which made me one would be low down my list of priorities.
    What is wrong with these people?

    You don't get to that position without always wanting more?

    Or when they have so much money and power they search for more meaning to life, hence messianic fervour for whatever stupid techbro idea they just read online 5 minutes ago?
    Billionaires are all different too. Gates and Buffett are amongst the worlds biggest aid donors including major countries.

    The advances in AI and biotech are important in this. It is quite plausible the winners of those races may end up with a level of power never seen before in human history. That is one of the big drivers of the broligarchies need for more power and fewer restrictions on their activities.
    The flip side of *why* this happens is worth noting.

    Regular companies and government stopped innovating or even doing - the Process State is very enjoyable for those whose find virtue in the thickness of reports.

    So we have a world where everything takes 2 decades. A train line, a new fighter jet. And the cost increases, above inflation, every year.

    Meanwhile the politicians find legislating a Bit Tricky. So they write laws that speak of rights and obligations and then outsource the actual rule making to various quasi independent groups. This has the further advantage of removing responsibility from the politicians.

    If you abdicate power, someone will pick up the sceptre.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,927

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    Obama pushed for military cooperation with Russia and called them a strategic partner over Iran.

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/us-russia-relations-reset-fact-sheet
    He never went all-in, on Russia’s side.
    I don't think he has gone all in on the Russian side. The negotiation with Russia hasn't started - he's decided he must get the Ukrainians to agree first. This undermining of their position is to secure that. It's a lot more than I would be comfortable doing, but it's a sort of strategy.
    And the Ukranians are supposed to accept this on a vague assurance from Trump, a man who not only changes his mind on an hourly basis, but also at least has a bromance with Putin with some risk that he is an active Russian asset.

    Yeah, that will work.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,864

    Battlebus said:

    The BBC article on immigration today is interesting in that it compares the boat immigrants (30K) last year with the legal immigrants (700K) last year. The Vox Pop of the people of Shirebrook shed some light on the fears of the left behind. Left behind in that it was a thriving coal mining area and when the pit closed, people stayed.

    Broadly similar to the rust belt stories in the US and the rich vein that Vance and Trump are able to tap.

    Former industrial areas but significantly different because of the difference in distances.

    Shirebrook is near the M1, close to both Mansfield and Chesterfield and less than an hour from either Sheffield or Nottingham.

    Whereas the American rustbelt is depopulating the old coalfields of Yorkshire and the Midlands are filled with new housing estates.

    https://www.lindenhomes.co.uk/developments/derbyshire/pleasley-view-shirebrook
    Thirty years ago, I was great friends with someone from Brimington, near Staveley and Shirebrook. He once said something like: "We used to have a steelworks, a benzine plant, a brickworks and a railway workshop. The steelwork's closed, the brickworks' reduced (*), the benzine plant is closing and the railway's closed."

    I haven't been back to Brimington/Staveley for over two decades, so I don't know what state it is now. But I do know the railway work's now a ?flourishing? preserved railway hub.

    https://www.barrowhill.org/

    (*) I once had to pick up a tonne and a half of unfired bricks from the brickworks.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,182

    The effects of Trump and the sentiments appearing from the transatlantic earthquake take time to percolate through the electorate. Most people don't follow news the way we do and it takes months for events to take hold and impact voting behaviour - as this is a big strategic question rather than merely a personal scandal. I suspect Reforms numbers are going to drop as people think through what they have stood for over the last years (policies that have weakened us economically and in terms of defense) and as people see the effect of the DOGE/Truss style economic collapse in the US. I also look forward to the next yougov and Statista brexit polls. I suspect leave is in for a further bloodbath.

    Defence.

    And the policy that is 'weakening us' economically (killing us would be a more appropriate term) is Net Zero. That's something Reform have opposed consistently, and it's Labour's joyful task to unravel it, because they aren't going to win against a turd in a box next time round if they don't.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,757

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Not entirely true given new Trump sanctions on Russia. It is more a question of where the territorial boundaries go in a ceasefire, even Trump is not giving Russia all of Ukraine
    The US is supplying Russia with intelligence, while doing all it can to undermine the Ukrainians.
    Stunning that we are writing sentences like this, even though seems true.

    Just incredible that the US can be turned to support a sworn enemy of decades standing on the say so of one man.
    Obama pushed for military cooperation with Russia and called them a strategic partner over Iran.

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/us-russia-relations-reset-fact-sheet
    In the Yeltsin 1990's people were seriously saying Russia should join NATO. Obama was 2008-2016 and things have changed. The USA under Trump have snapped the West in two, threatened bits of Canada with annexation, have allied the USA with Russia over Ukraine, and are fantasizing about ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,824
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andrew Neil a Fcking Fool

    by

    Andrew Neil

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/1898275682880270640

    I suspect there will be very little humility shown by Brillo after yet another complete misreading of the facts.

    The people accused for years of having "TDS" were those who called Trump right and I'm proud to be in that number.
    I’ll admit, Trump has been even worse than I anticipated.
    Leondamus strikes again.
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