Unprecedented. Shocking. This public verbal spat, this haranguing in the White House of a visiting president is dramatic. Zelensky invited it by being argumentative instead of tactfully steering the exchange in a more positive direction. He has been lionised so much that he has developed an inordinate sense of entitlement. He has lectured European leaders and got away with it. It hasn’t worked with Trump and Vance.
The Indian clips on Youtube are always very anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian.
William must scrape what barrels are available.
Anyone remember when William Glenn was strongly pro EU? Has he ever explained why he did such an about turn to alt right fanboy?
It’s time for cool heads and to remember that the US and Ukraine are on the same side.
Volodymyr Zelenskyy has led his people heroically for three years against completely unprovoked aggression from Russia.
The bravery of the Ukrainians has been amazing. Their suffering has been appalling.
It is they who deserve our support and they who frankly deserve our respect.
The best way forward now is for the minerals deal to be signed as soon as possible. There is still a path to peace.
Slava Ukraini! 🇺🇦
What a pathetic man he is. He literally has no principles or views.
You should be far more concerned at Starmer’s silence this evening, when leaders across Europe and here the conservatives and lib dems have given full support to Zelensky
And I have asked you before, do you agree the invitation to Trump should be withdrawn?
Would you seriously withdraw it if you were PM?
It shouldn't have been offered in the first place, and is now a huge embarrassment that is likely to end up in the commons and may ultimately be withdrawn or certainly shelved
It was absolutely worth a try. And to think Starmer was accused of being "Captain Hindsight"...
It may still have some utility if it can be held over him. I get the sense it wouldn't have descended into that farce if not for Vance, so a private Starmer:Trump call might help.
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
You over estimate our strength. Trump won’t give a shit or alter course because of a strongly worded tweet.
But Europe taking a much more even-handed position between the US and China might.
Our price for a closer existence with China is China ending any trade with Russia. And leaning on North Korea to do likewise. That at least would give a chance for North Korea, ostensibly grumbling, to get its troops out of the Kursk meat grinder.
If America wants to get into bed with Moscow for trade - well, good luck spending those roubles you'll get paid in.
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
“Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions”
Okay. What measures are you suggesting?
Boycott World Cup and Olympics. Ban the NFL from Europe.
What about Premiership football clubs with American ownership?
Boris Johnson and May didn’t pull us out of World Cup after Salisbury, on basis that hurts the people of a country, not its rotten dictatorship who committed the crime - as well as hurting ourselves. That argument holds no truck with you?
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
“Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions”
Okay. What measures are you suggesting?
Hearts are ruling over heads on here for many at the moment, understandably.
The answer 'what should Starmer do?' seems quite obvious, to me at least. Get our very best people to pull together a plan to (a) get our own military to sufficient strength and (b) build alliances that together will allow us to confidently assert the European view in this as soon as we possibly can.
Work from the date at which we can make that confident assertion - up to that point, do whatever is needed to deescalate. Beyond that point, utterly reject the moral and strategic idiocy from the white house and take no prisoners in our defence of western liberal values.
This is within our power. But it will need a lot of squeamishness in the meantime as we work with the reality that we remain, for the moment, America's poodle.
Christ look at Rubio on those clips on BBC news. He can't hide himself lower in the sofa, nervously looking around at the press pack, with a pale, grey face.
Not particularly enamoured of Starmer failing to make a statement this evening. Even if couched in diplomatic language, I think it was important as a show of support for Ukraine.
I've watched the whole press conference now. That went quite smoothly for some 40 minutes.
Zelensky was using it to make his case to the US press and maybe, usefully, could have said a little less, but there was nothing in the exchanges that I'd consider undiplomatic, and Trump aside from the odd typical jibe against his US opponents held court in a cordial fashion. There was little sign of what was to come until JD Vance went on a pretty much unprovoked attack and Trump eventually turned and joined in.
Whether Vance screwed up and Trump covered for him or whether it was a pre-planned mugging on Vance's and maybe Trump's part, I do not know. I tend to the latter because the lines were there - "see what we're dealing with", but I'm not 100% positive on that.
And if Starmer's "do what is necessary when it is necessary" approach is to talk to the actual actors rather than tweet about it, then fine.
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
“Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions”
Okay. What measures are you suggesting?
Boycott World Cup and Olympics. Ban the NFL from Europe.
What about Premiership football clubs with American ownership?
Boris Johnson and May didn’t pull us out of World Cup after Salisbury, on basis that hurts the people of a country, not its rotten dictatorship who committed the crime - as well as hurting ourselves. That argument holds no truck with you?
I think it's outrageous that May didn't pull England out of the 2018 World Cup. EDIT: Actually, I want to boycott the World Cup and Olympics precisely because it hurts the people of that country.
Should American ownership be on the table like it was with the Russians? Quite possibly.
If Trump was hoping to make Zelenskyy look like the bad guy with this ambush he's made a big error. The right wing YouTube personalities are all pretty shocked by how they treated a world leader and I don't think this is going to turn out to be a very popular move by Trump. Foreign policy doesn't generally rate for VI in the US so I don't think it will move the needle a lot but he's definitely going to have fewer defenders after this.
The most pressing question for a lot of the YT right wing personalities has been what America gets out of Making Russia Great Again, how does it help the MAGA agenda. The mineral deal seemed to be a justification but without that there's really nothing for America to gain from MRGA and siding with Russia and the commentators are realising it.
Unfortunately, like a lot on the British right, he has a blind spot when it comes to Trump. I think, if absolutely forced to choose between Ukraine and Trump, he would ultimately choose Ukraine but he's clearly hoping it won't come to that.
It has already come to that. I have no idea how anyone can think otherwise. I get that some in the government might be playing for time, but I hope they now realise that thinking they can talk some sense into Trump is deluded. If America even turns back towards the previous norms and rule of law it will be down to what Americans do, and I expect things to get a hell of a lot worse before they get any better.
Not particularly enamoured of Starmer failing to make a statement this evening. Even if couched in diplomatic language, I think it was important as a show of support for Ukraine.
Most of the rest of Europe already has
Where is he? Is he even in the country (it's possible he's still flying over the Atlantic?)
But the moment for that is past. At some point one needs to stand up for what is right. (Plus, of course, the more countries the US slaps tariffs on, the less effective they are.)
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Your framing this as an anti-Starmer assault is petty and wrong. Some of us were saying it should never have been offered and should now be withdrawn. I wish Starmer had had the balls to tell Trump where to stick it. I would have put him down as the best PM of the 21st century if he had done that.
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
“Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions”
Okay. What measures are you suggesting?
Boycott World Cup and Olympics. Ban the NFL from Europe.
What about Premiership football clubs with American ownership?
Boris Johnson and May didn’t pull us out of World Cup after Salisbury, on basis that hurts the people of a country, not its rotten dictatorship who committed the crime - as well as hurting ourselves. That argument holds no truck with you?
Premiership? What about Wrexham FFS? Do we think Rob'n'Ryan are Trumpites? It's better to build bridges where we can, rather than castigate an entire nation for the folly of a minority.
I've watched the whole press conference now. That went quite smoothly for some 40 minutes.
Zelensky was using it to make his case to the US press and maybe, usefully, could have said a little less, but there was nothing in the exchanges that I'd consider undiplomatic, and Trump aside from the odd typical jibe against his US opponents held court in a cordial fashion. There was little sign of what was to come until JD Vance went on a pretty much unprovoked attack and Trump eventually turned and joined in.
Whether Vance screwed up and Trump covered for him or whether it was a pre-planned mugging on Vance's and maybe Trump's part, I do not know. I tend to the latter because the lines were there - "see what we're dealing with", but I'm not 100% positive on that.
And if Starmer's "do what is necessary when it is necessary" approach is to talk to the actual actors rather than tweet about it, then fine.
"until JD Vance went on a pretty much unprovoked attack"
The guys over at the Bulwark reckon quite firmly this was a pre-planned and deliberate attack by Vance all agreed in advance with Trumpski.
I suppose the alternative is he is just some dude from the holler who saw red, your honour, and just lashed out on a Friday night after a couple of beers.
Not particularly enamoured of Starmer failing to make a statement this evening. Even if couched in diplomatic language, I think it was important as a show of support for Ukraine.
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the
downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
You over estimate our strength. Trump won’t give a shit or alter course because of a strongly worded tweet.
The whole of Europe already has. We need to choose whose side we’re on. I’m not reliving the humiliation of the Iraq war again.
This might be far more serious than you give this credit for. We need to buy time.
Indeed.
If Starmer comes down completely on the European side too immediately, he could also lose any chance of a crucial linking role, or power to set the agenda.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Sarah Smith sanewashing Trump on BBC News. Fuck off Sarah Smith!
I dream of the day a newsreader will actually say what is true "Donald Trump is a dangerous lunatic" rather than kidding us that it might be some clever form of absurdist diplomacy or non-Newtonian government.
If Trump was hoping to make Zelenskyy look like the bad guy with this ambush he's made a big error. The right wing YouTube personalities are all pretty shocked by how they treated a world leader and I don't think this is going to turn out to be a very popular move by Trump. Foreign policy doesn't generally rate for VI in the US so I don't think it will move the needle a lot but he's definitely going to have fewer defenders after this.
The most pressing question for a lot of the YT right wing personalities has been what America gets out of Making Russia Great Again, how does it help the MAGA agenda. The mineral deal seemed to be a justification but without that there's really nothing for America to gain from MRGA and siding with Russia and the commentators are realising it.
I guess a genuine question is how many of those right wing Youtube commentators are expressing genuinely held views, and how many are shilling for dollars. The next few days might make that clear; I am hopeful but not optimistic.
If Trump was hoping to make Zelenskyy look like the bad guy with this ambush he's made a big error. The right wing YouTube personalities are all pretty shocked by how they treated a world leader and I don't think this is going to turn out to be a very popular move by Trump. Foreign policy doesn't generally rate for VI in the US so I don't think it will move the needle a lot but he's definitely going to have fewer defenders after this.
The most pressing question for a lot of the YT right wing personalities has been what America gets out of Making Russia Great Again, how does it help the MAGA agenda. The mineral deal seemed to be a justification but without that there's really nothing for America to gain from MRGA and siding with Russia and the commentators are realising it.
Jeremy Bowen just said it looked like an ambush starting with the question about the suit.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Your framing this as an anti-Starmer assault is petty and wrong. Some of us were saying it should never have been offered and should now be withdrawn. I wish Starmer had had the balls to tell Trump where to stick it. I would have put him down as the best PM of the 21st century if he had done that.
But the moment for that is past. At some point one needs to stand up for what is right. (Plus, of course, the more countries the US slaps tariffs on, the less effective they are.)
Serious question: how could UK impose tariffs on digital services imported from the US, such as Google, Amazon, Apple etc etc. We actually have a trade deficit with the USA. Internet services account for most of it.
It's hard to know exactly what an appropriate response to this is in relation to the USA, but I do know one thing: the meeting of European leaders this Sunday could not have had a clearer impetus.
If they collectively bottle taking decisive measures to allow Europe to stand alone in defence within 3-5 years, including defending Ukraine to the extent that we are capable of doing so, starting Monday, every single one of them deserves to be thrown out of office.
If things weren't clear before, they surely are now.
Unfortunately Germany won't be in a position to promise increased defence spending because that utter shit Merz refused to talk about reforming the debt brake on any of the dozen times the outgoing government asked him to consider it over the last year or more.
Whether something can be done before the new parliament (that has a 1 third blocking minority AfD plus die Linke) convenes isn't certain. Today die Linke threatened to go to the constitutional court if an attempt is made using the old parliament.
But you know there are historical reasons Germany is reticent to get involved in war in Ukraine. Why don’t you just be honest and explain to us that you understand that, rather than hide behind those reasons in your criticism of Merz?
Huh? Should I bother answering this? I'll just say your reply to me doesn't address anything I wrote in any way whatsoever and leave it at that.
UK journalism often refers to this German reticence - should we ignore it when UK journalists do this? Or is it a real thing, the sound of German language in Ukraine winds up Pro Russia Ukrainians or something? It’s not all about 2nd WW? is it first WW or prior to that?
What's it got to do with the German constitutional debt brake?
You seem reticent to explain there is or isn’t this reticence thing to us - why?
I was talking about the debt brake - which is why I ask you what your comments have to do with the debt brake?
But on the issue of sensitivity in Germany around German military involvement in Ukraine (and elsewhere) for historical reasons, I'm sure you can figure it out. I'll give you one hint - @JosiasJessop is an idiot.
Thanks. 🙂. I’ve got German ancestry. Does the issue relate to much prior to 1900?
I know Germany occupied Ukraine during both world wars. I know Lenin had lots of serious pressure from a peace deal with Germany whilst Ukraine still under German occupation. But my supplementary question if I may, wasn’t there some Ukrainian types who enjoyed those German occupation periods? If so, the existence of Ukrainians who like German involvement in their country, was this set up in history prior to WW1, with a Germanic speaking contingent in Ukraine going way back? Borders were a lot more fluid and indistinct in old pre 19thC days weren’t they, than the ones which define Ukraine as a violated sovereign country today.
If Trump was hoping to make Zelenskyy look like the bad guy with this ambush he's made a big error. The right wing YouTube personalities are all pretty shocked by how they treated a world leader and I don't think this is going to turn out to be a very popular move by Trump. Foreign policy doesn't generally rate for VI in the US so I don't think it will move the needle a lot but he's definitely going to have fewer defenders after this.
The most pressing question for a lot of the YT right wing personalities has been what America gets out of Making Russia Great Again, how does it help the MAGA agenda. The mineral deal seemed to be a justification but without that there's really nothing for America to gain from MRGA and siding with Russia and the commentators are realising it.
Jeremy Bowen just said it looked like an ambush starting with the question about the suit.
With Trump I feel it’s impossible to say. He is a chaotic, fickle personality.
My guess is Putin didn't like the idea that american workers digging up rare earth minerals would block him from a 2nd go at Ukraine after a couple of years of ceasefire and frozen conflict and so he issued instructions to the Trojan horse in the WH.
Unprecedented. Shocking. This public verbal spat, this haranguing in the White House of a visiting president is dramatic. Zelensky invited it by being argumentative instead of tactfully steering the exchange in a more positive direction. He has been lionised so much that he has developed an inordinate sense of entitlement. He has lectured European leaders and got away with it. It hasn’t worked with Trump and Vance.
The Indian clips on Youtube are always very anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian.
William must scrape what barrels are available.
Anyone remember when William Glenn was strongly pro EU? Has he ever explained why he did such an about turn to alt right fanboy?
It is a strange one for me. For a good few years in the lead up to 2016 William was my mortal enemy (in a PB manner of speaking) with his fanatical support for the EU vs my equally fanatical support for leaving.
Then after the vote he switched to supporting Brexit with a vehemence equal to or exceeding my own, if I remember rightly he was even supporting the actions by the Johnson government that I thought were wrong - such as prorogation and attacking the courts.
Since then he has become more and more right wing until he is almost as far away from me politically now as he was back prior to the referendum but in exactly the opposite direction. I feel like I have stood still and he has swept past me.
It's hard to know exactly what an appropriate response to this is in relation to the USA, but I do know one thing: the meeting of European leaders this Sunday could not have had a clearer impetus.
If they collectively bottle taking decisive measures to allow Europe to stand alone in defence within 3-5 years, including defending Ukraine to the extent that we are capable of doing so, starting Monday, every single one of them deserves to be thrown out of office.
If things weren't clear before, they surely are now.
Unfortunately Germany won't be in a position to promise increased defence spending because that utter shit Merz refused to talk about reforming the debt brake on any of the dozen times the outgoing government asked him to consider it over the last year or more.
Whether something can be done before the new parliament (that has a 1 third blocking minority AfD plus die Linke) convenes isn't certain. Today die Linke threatened to go to the constitutional court if an attempt is made using the old parliament.
But you know there are historical reasons Germany is reticent to get involved in war in Ukraine. Why don’t you just be honest and explain to us that you understand that, rather than hide behind those reasons in your criticism of Merz?
Huh? Should I bother answering this? I'll just say your reply to me doesn't address anything I wrote in any way whatsoever and leave it at that.
UK journalism often refers to this German reticence - should we ignore it when UK journalists do this? Or is it a real thing, the sound of German language in Ukraine winds up Pro Russia Ukrainians or something? It’s not all about 2nd WW? is it first WW or prior to that?
What's it got to do with the German constitutional debt brake?
You seem reticent to explain there is or isn’t this reticence thing to us - why?
I was talking about the debt brake - which is why I ask you what your comments have to do with the debt brake?
But on the issue of sensitivity in Germany around German military involvement in Ukraine (and elsewhere) for historical reasons, I'm sure you can figure it out. I'll give you one hint - @JosiasJessop is an idiot.
Thanks. 🙂. I’ve got German ancestry. Does the issue relate to much prior to 1900?
I know Germany occupied Ukraine during both world wars. I know Lenin had lots of serious pressure from a peace deal with Germany whilst Ukraine still under German occupation. But my supplementary question if I may, wasn’t there some Ukrainian types who enjoyed those German occupation periods? If so, the existence of Ukrainians who like German involvement in their country, was this set up in history prior to WW1, with a Germanic speaking contingent in Ukraine going way back? Borders were a lot more fluid and indistinct in old pre 19thC days weren’t they, than the ones which define Ukraine as a violated sovereign country today.
That last sentence is imo the reason why everyone in Europe is so firm about sovereign borders being respected.
Phillips P. OBrien @PhillipsPOBrien · 1h If you think this was a disagreement about the mineral deal, you have no idea what happened. Trump was putting pressure on Zelensky to make major concessions, probably agree to Putin's demands, and get no security for Ukraine in return. And Zelensky had the courage to say "no".
Starmer not making a statement either way is the correct approach, let's let everyone cool down and then try again. Getting Trump to stick to his promise to keep sanctions on Russia for a extra year that he gave to Starmer is much more important to Ukraine (and Europe) than the feel good factor of picking a side right now.
If Starmer is seen to be moving away from Trump or disrespecting him then that promise goes out of the window so cooler heads are needed
What we need is to get Trump in the room with Zelenskyy here in the UK without that idiot Vance and with Rubio and other more sensible Republicans. We should ensure that Vance isn't invited to the state dinner, make sure Mandy is in the White House for the weeks leading up preparing the ground with Trump and we need to get firm commitments from all across Europe to fund a much larger proportion of Ukraine's support so that the monetary factor goes away for Trump (which really seems to be the big sticking point) even if it means the European countries writing long dated loans to Ukraine at favourable terms so that they can pay back a big portion of US cash support they've given.
If Trump was hoping to make Zelenskyy look like the bad guy with this ambush he's made a big error. The right wing YouTube personalities are all pretty shocked by how they treated a world leader and I don't think this is going to turn out to be a very popular move by Trump. Foreign policy doesn't generally rate for VI in the US so I don't think it will move the needle a lot but he's definitely going to have fewer defenders after this.
The most pressing question for a lot of the YT right wing personalities has been what America gets out of Making Russia Great Again, how does it help the MAGA agenda. The mineral deal seemed to be a justification but without that there's really nothing for America to gain from MRGA and siding with Russia and the commentators are realising it.
Jeremy Bowen just said it looked like an ambush starting with the question about the suit.
We've had a whole month of Fucking About. We're patiently waiting for Trump to Find Out. It's only our historic belief in the hubris:nemesis complex that keeps us going. Once that goes we're sunk.
Phillips P. OBrien @PhillipsPOBrien · 1h If you think this was a disagreement about the mineral deal, you have no idea what happened. Trump was putting pressure on Zelensky to make major concessions, probably agree to Putin's demands, and get no security for Ukraine in return. And Zelensky had the courage to say "no".
As Trump himself said, you've got to be prepared to say no deal and walk away
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Your framing this as an anti-Starmer assault is petty and wrong. Some of us were saying it should never have been offered and should now be withdrawn. I wish Starmer had had the balls to tell Trump where to stick it. I would have put him down as the best PM of the 21st century if he had done that.
I've been waiting all evening for Starmer to to come out in resounding support of Ukraine à la Macron, and disappointed he hasn't.
But now we're told he's been speaking to both Trump and Zelensky...
Is there a small chance that Starmer can patch things up between them again? Probably not, but it's got to be worth a try.
And with Trump you never know when he's going to flip-flop again.
The alternative is too grim to contemplate, though we will probably have to endure it.
Sky report just now that Trump was boarding his helicopter emboldened by the day
It does make you wonder if they laid a trap for Zelensky
They made themselves look like odious clueless idiots, a million miles from Statesmen. They can have as much fun with disruption as they want, At the end of the day they have to deliver better for the American people. Aside from less friends and less goodwill, what have they achieved?
Let’s await the judgement of the American people in the polling and ongoing (they are always ongoing) elections.
I've watched the whole press conference now. That went quite smoothly for some 40 minutes.
Zelensky was using it to make his case to the US press and maybe, usefully, could have said a little less, but there was nothing in the exchanges that I'd consider undiplomatic, and Trump aside from the odd typical jibe against his US opponents held court in a cordial fashion. There was little sign of what was to come until JD Vance went on a pretty much unprovoked attack and Trump eventually turned and joined in.
Whether Vance screwed up and Trump covered for him or whether it was a pre-planned mugging on Vance's and maybe Trump's part, I do not know. I tend to the latter because the lines were there - "see what we're dealing with", but I'm not 100% positive on that.
And if Starmer's "do what is necessary when it is necessary" approach is to talk to the actual actors rather than tweet about it, then fine.
Thanks for this. I actually trust many fellow PBers to give a more reasobable interpretation of events than many of the news media.
Certainly in America it’s not really possible to get news that is not unhealthily biased one way or another.
🚨🚨 High-level Trump sources tell me the White House is now uncertain if they can get the Russians and Ukrainians to stop fighting because this episode with @ZelenskyyUa raised questions about whether he can move forward toward a peace deal. It also raises questions about whether US will pause aid to Ukraine. But Trump is NOT seeking regime change in Ukraine. No discussions about who in Ukraine might be a better leader than Zelenskyy.
Ukrainian officials have reached out this afternoon to senior White House officials desperate to get the deal back on track. But that will not happen today, I'm told. Trump is unwilling to talk to Zelenskyy further today.
When Rubio and Waltz went into the Roosevelt Room to ask Zelenskyy to leave, Rubio made it clear that any further engagements today would be counterproductive. Waltz told Zelenskyy he had made a tremendous mistake, and it was a grave disservice to Ukraine and to Americans, both.
No phone calls between Trump and Putin have been scheduled. But multiple European officials have called top Trump officials since Zelenskyy left asking how the minerals deal can be salvaged.
Trump fully intended to sign the minerals deal today. Two official binders were prepared -- Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and his Ukrainian counterpart and the two presidents were going to sit at a conference table in the East Room and then trumpet their success at podiums.
But there were suspicions before Zelenskyy arrived today that it might fall apart. Because the Trump admin had been pushing for weeks for a minerals deal signing at the ministerial level, and Ukraine had refused. Zelenskyy wanted security guarantees.
US officials thought negotiations would be much harder with **Putin** so today have been been in disbelief that it has been Zelenskyy who has been more difficult, making maximalist demands, sources told me.
If all of this propels European governments to spend more on defence in order to, amongst other things, defend Ukraine, it might end up being a good thing despite everything.
Unprecedented. Shocking. This public verbal spat, this haranguing in the White House of a visiting president is dramatic. Zelensky invited it by being argumentative instead of tactfully steering the exchange in a more positive direction. He has been lionised so much that he has developed an inordinate sense of entitlement. He has lectured European leaders and got away with it. It hasn’t worked with Trump and Vance.
The Indian clips on Youtube are always very anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian.
William must scrape what barrels are available.
Anyone remember when William Glenn was strongly pro EU? Has he ever explained why he did such an about turn to alt right fanboy?
It is a strange one for me. For a good few years in the lead up to 2016 William was my mortal enemy (in a PB manner of speaking) with his fanatical support for the EU vs my equally fanatical support for leaving.
Then after the vote he switched to supporting Brexit with a vehemence equal to or exceeding my own, if I remember rightly he was even supporting the actions by the Johnson government that I thought were wrong - such as prorogation and attacking the courts.
Since then he has become more and more right wing until he is almost as far away from me politically now as he was back prior to the referendum but in exactly the opposite direction. I feel like I have stood still and he has swept past me.
Nah, Richard, its just that there is a raging leftie in you that is itching to get out. Come join the dark side, you know you want to, really.
It's hard to know exactly what an appropriate response to this is in relation to the USA, but I do know one thing: the meeting of European leaders this Sunday could not have had a clearer impetus.
If they collectively bottle taking decisive measures to allow Europe to stand alone in defence within 3-5 years, including defending Ukraine to the extent that we are capable of doing so, starting Monday, every single one of them deserves to be thrown out of office.
If things weren't clear before, they surely are now.
Unfortunately Germany won't be in a position to promise increased defence spending because that utter shit Merz refused to talk about reforming the debt brake on any of the dozen times the outgoing government asked him to consider it over the last year or more.
Whether something can be done before the new parliament (that has a 1 third blocking minority AfD plus die Linke) convenes isn't certain. Today die Linke threatened to go to the constitutional court if an attempt is made using the old parliament.
But you know there are historical reasons Germany is reticent to get involved in war in Ukraine. Why don’t you just be honest and explain to us that you understand that, rather than hide behind those reasons in your criticism of Merz?
Huh? Should I bother answering this? I'll just say your reply to me doesn't address anything I wrote in any way whatsoever and leave it at that.
UK journalism often refers to this German reticence - should we ignore it when UK journalists do this? Or is it a real thing, the sound of German language in Ukraine winds up Pro Russia Ukrainians or something? It’s not all about 2nd WW? is it first WW or prior to that?
What's it got to do with the German constitutional debt brake?
You seem reticent to explain there is or isn’t this reticence thing to us - why?
I was talking about the debt brake - which is why I ask you what your comments have to do with the debt brake?
But on the issue of sensitivity in Germany around German military involvement in Ukraine (and elsewhere) for historical reasons, I'm sure you can figure it out. I'll give you one hint - @JosiasJessop is an idiot.
Thanks. 🙂. I’ve got German ancestry. Does the issue relate to much prior to 1900?
I know Germany occupied Ukraine during both world wars. I know Lenin had lots of serious pressure from a peace deal with Germany whilst Ukraine still under German occupation. But my supplementary question if I may, wasn’t there some Ukrainian types who enjoyed those German occupation periods? If so, the existence of Ukrainians who like German involvement in their country, was this set up in history prior to WW1, with a Germanic speaking contingent in Ukraine going way back? Borders were a lot more fluid and indistinct in old pre 19thC days weren’t they, than the ones which define Ukraine as a violated sovereign country today.
Western Ukraine was Austrian prior to WW1 - Lviv was a multilingual city speaking Yiddish, German, Polish and Ukrainian. It became part of the Polish 2nd Republic, and after WW2 the Poles were deported by Stalin.
Germany supported Ukrainian independence in WW1, to divide Russia.
I suspect the German sensitivity is mostly regarding the Third Reich. And yes some Ukrainians collaborated, but it was hard to decide between Stalin and Hitler (as with the Balts, who were invaded once by the Germans and twice by Russia)
If all of this propels European governments to spend more on defence in order to, amongst other things, defend Ukraine, it might end up being a good thing despite everything.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
I think you will find that @Mexicanpete is very much one of the critics
I said the visit was an error. Where are your boys Johnson and Farage? Dickheads who of course attended Trump's inauguration.
Johnson and Farage are not my boys
Kemi Badenoch and most of the conservative front bench have come out 100% in support of Zelensky
Remember I am a conservative and vote conservative
Happy birthday, by the way. Will you squeeze an infinitesimal celebration between 23:59 and 00:01, or enjoy a whole day tomorrow? Either way, have a good one. Daffs are out as usual.
@Sandpit was a much liked contributor to this forum and many would welcome his return
He is very personally invested in Ukraine and has a lot to lose
(Snip)
He was personally invested in Ukraine, but also supported those who were against Ukraine.
That was the issue.
He gave an interesting perspective and certainly isn't deluded anymore than anyone else on here
In your view, what was his perspective? Being pro-Ukraine and pro-Trump/GOP/Musk is a position, but it is massively contradictory. And I think that is a fair summary of his position.
I found his personal investment in Ukraine and his comments interesting, even though I did not agree with them on occasions
This forum is better for a wide range of views
This forum is better for a wide range of views connected to reality. I don't think people repeating conspiracy theories add much.
Unprecedented. Shocking. This public verbal spat, this haranguing in the White House of a visiting president is dramatic. Zelensky invited it by being argumentative instead of tactfully steering the exchange in a more positive direction. He has been lionised so much that he has developed an inordinate sense of entitlement. He has lectured European leaders and got away with it. It hasn’t worked with Trump and Vance.
The Indian clips on Youtube are always very anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian.
William must scrape what barrels are available.
Anyone remember when William Glenn was strongly pro EU? Has he ever explained why he did such an about turn to alt right fanboy?
It is a strange one for me. For a good few years in the lead up to 2016 William was my mortal enemy (in a PB manner of speaking) with his fanatical support for the EU vs my equally fanatical support for leaving.
Then after the vote he switched to supporting Brexit with a vehemence equal to or exceeding my own, if I remember rightly he was even supporting the actions by the Johnson government that I thought were wrong - such as prorogation and attacking the courts.
Since then he has become more and more right wing until he is almost as far away from me politically now as he was back prior to the referendum but in exactly the opposite direction. I feel like I have stood still and he has swept past me.
Brexit is small fry compared to what’s happening now .
I have learnt much from recent events and that’s generally many on those opposing sides still fundamentally know right from wrong.
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
“Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions”
Okay. What measures are you suggesting?
Some want a dramatic Hollywood moment. Unfortunately the credits will not roll and we will all have to deal with the consequences.
Cool heads, accept the old world is gone and we are not yet ready for the new world, buy time.
Expel the USA from the Five Eyes. Tulsi Gabbard will betray secret information to Russia.
I agree. Unfortunately I spent yesterday lunchtime with my beighbour who spent a decade or more in the RAF doing all manner of intelligence and C&C posts. He said that whilst it is a nice idea and may even become necessary, the US own much of the actual framework hardware for Five Eyes and the rest of the countries are not currently in a position to replicate that.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
I think you will find that @Mexicanpete is very much one of the critics
I said the visit was an error. Where are your boys Johnson and Farage? Dickheads who of course attended Trump's inauguration.
Johnson and Farage are not my boys
Kemi Badenoch and most of the conservative front bench have come out 100% in support of Zelensky
Remember I am a conservative and vote conservative
I was critical of Starmer offering Trump the State Visit. I said yesterday it was f***ING insanity. I have been proved correct, as has Kinabalu.
You are trying to make this a party political argument. Surely we are beyond that. Starmer made a huge error, but it was probably done from an exercise in persuasion over Trump. The Conservative Grandees who have sold their souls to Trump is indeed a long list starting with Johnson, Truss, Mogg, Jenrick, Patel, Braverman and the list goes on. And let's not forget the Reform traitors. Starmer has made a grave error, but his guilt is minimal compares to those bastards I have listed above.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
I think you will find that @Mexicanpete is very much one of the critics
I said the visit was an error. Where are your boys Johnson and Farage? Dickheads who of course attended Trump's inauguration.
Johnson and Farage are not my boys
Kemi Badenoch and most of the conservative front bench have come out 100% in support of Zelensky
Remember I am a conservative and vote conservative
Happy birthday, by the way. Will you squeeze an infinitesimal celebration between 23:59 and 00:01, or enjoy a whole day tomorrow? Either way, have a good one. Daffs are out as usual.
Impressed you remember my birthday non birthday this year and thank you
Legally it is microseconds after midnight tonight and as it happens the family will be round tomorrow when I will be 81
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Smarter than Trump. Nastier than Trump. Younger than Trump.
🚨🚨 High-level Trump sources tell me the White House is now uncertain if they can get the Russians and Ukrainians to stop fighting because this episode with @ZelenskyyUa raised questions about whether he can move forward toward a peace deal. It also raises questions about whether US will pause aid to Ukraine. But Trump is NOT seeking regime change in Ukraine. No discussions about who in Ukraine might be a better leader than Zelenskyy.
Ukrainian officials have reached out this afternoon to senior White House officials desperate to get the deal back on track. But that will not happen today, I'm told. Trump is unwilling to talk to Zelenskyy further today.
When Rubio and Waltz went into the Roosevelt Room to ask Zelenskyy to leave, Rubio made it clear that any further engagements today would be counterproductive. Waltz told Zelenskyy he had made a tremendous mistake, and it was a grave disservice to Ukraine and to Americans, both.
No phone calls between Trump and Putin have been scheduled. But multiple European officials have called top Trump officials since Zelenskyy left asking how the minerals deal can be salvaged.
Trump fully intended to sign the minerals deal today. Two official binders were prepared -- Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and his Ukrainian counterpart and the two presidents were going to sit at a conference table in the East Room and then trumpet their success at podiums.
But there were suspicions before Zelenskyy arrived today that it might fall apart. Because the Trump admin had been pushing for weeks for a minerals deal signing at the ministerial level, and Ukraine had refused. Zelenskyy wanted security guarantees.
US officials thought negotiations would be much harder with **Putin** so today have been been in disbelief that it has been Zelenskyy who has been more difficult, making maximalist demands, sources told me.
I'm surprised that anybody's remotely surprised to discover that Trump is a nasty, unpleasant, rude bully.
All I've learnt today is that Vance is at least as bad, and possibly even more dangerous, being marginally more intelligent.
I'm reminded of the "let's go back in time and kill Hitler" stories that end up with someone just as evil but a bit more clever and ruthless running the Reich.
Didn’t Stephen fry do one like that? Sterilised the Jews and used them to help win the war.
For 80 years the US has been the linchpin of the Western alliance. Now in a matter of weeks it has done an 180 degree turn and seems to want to ally itself with Russia rather than against it.
Were I an Israeli politician, I'd be saying to myself: if the US can do this to long-standing allies, if it can betray a country invaded by those wanting to obliterate its existence, my country can't be certain it won't do the same to us too, one day. And from that realisation policies will flow, policies many of us will not like at all.
The US can no longer be trusted.
Israel has never trusted the US. It’s why they build their own tanks & have their own nuclear deterrent.
They’re very happy to have US support if it’s available to them of course, but that support has not been there when they might have appreciated it in the past & might not be in the future - a reality they are very keenly aware of.
We need to do that. Israel is the only nation that doesn't need the US to set the software for its F35's.
Just what I was about to say. Britain needs to be more like Israel in the defence of our realm.
But not like Israel in offence against our neighbours.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Smarter than Trump. Nastier than Trump. Younger than Trump.
Apart from that, no problem.
If Trump karks it this bastard is in the driver's seat.
@Sandpit was a much liked contributor to this forum and many would welcome his return
He is very personally invested in Ukraine and has a lot to lose
(Snip)
He was personally invested in Ukraine, but also supported those who were against Ukraine.
That was the issue.
He gave an interesting perspective and certainly isn't deluded anymore than anyone else on here
In your view, what was his perspective? Being pro-Ukraine and pro-Trump/GOP/Musk is a position, but it is massively contradictory. And I think that is a fair summary of his position.
I found his personal investment in Ukraine and his comments interesting, even though I did not agree with them on occasions
This forum is better for a wide range of views
This forum is better for a wide range of views connected to reality. I don't think people repeating conspiracy theories add much.
Got to say @Sandpit's reaction to today would have been interesting to watch...
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
It's hard to know exactly what an appropriate response to this is in relation to the USA, but I do know one thing: the meeting of European leaders this Sunday could not have had a clearer impetus.
If they collectively bottle taking decisive measures to allow Europe to stand alone in defence within 3-5 years, including defending Ukraine to the extent that we are capable of doing so, starting Monday, every single one of them deserves to be thrown out of office.
If things weren't clear before, they surely are now.
Unfortunately Germany won't be in a position to promise increased defence spending because that utter shit Merz refused to talk about reforming the debt brake on any of the dozen times the outgoing government asked him to consider it over the last year or more.
Whether something can be done before the new parliament (that has a 1 third blocking minority AfD plus die Linke) convenes isn't certain. Today die Linke threatened to go to the constitutional court if an attempt is made using the old parliament.
But you know there are historical reasons Germany is reticent to get involved in war in Ukraine. Why don’t you just be honest and explain to us that you understand that, rather than hide behind those reasons in your criticism of Merz?
Huh? Should I bother answering this? I'll just say your reply to me doesn't address anything I wrote in any way whatsoever and leave it at that.
UK journalism often refers to this German reticence - should we ignore it when UK journalists do this? Or is it a real thing, the sound of German language in Ukraine winds up Pro Russia Ukrainians or something? It’s not all about 2nd WW? is it first WW or prior to that?
What's it got to do with the German constitutional debt brake?
You seem reticent to explain there is or isn’t this reticence thing to us - why?
I was talking about the debt brake - which is why I ask you what your comments have to do with the debt brake?
But on the issue of sensitivity in Germany around German military involvement in Ukraine (and elsewhere) for historical reasons, I'm sure you can figure it out. I'll give you one hint - @JosiasJessop is an idiot.
Thanks. 🙂. I’ve got German ancestry. Does the issue relate to much prior to 1900?
I know Germany occupied Ukraine during both world wars. I know Lenin had lots of serious pressure from a peace deal with Germany whilst Ukraine still under German occupation. But my supplementary question if I may, wasn’t there some Ukrainian types who enjoyed those German occupation periods? If so, the existence of Ukrainians who like German involvement in their country, was this set up in history prior to WW1, with a Germanic speaking contingent in Ukraine going way back? Borders were a lot more fluid and indistinct in old pre 19thC days weren’t they, than the ones which define Ukraine as a violated sovereign country today.
Western Ukraine was Austrian prior to WW1 - Lviv was a multilingual city speaking Yiddish, German, Polish and Ukrainian. It became part of the Polish 2nd Republic, and after WW2 the Poles were deported by Stalin.
Germany supported Ukrainian independence in WW1, to divide Russia.
I suspect the German sensitivity is mostly regarding the Third Reich. And yes some Ukrainians collaborated, but it was hard to decide between Stalin and Hitler (as with the Balts, who were invaded once by the Germans and twice by Russia)
And yes there was some Ukrainian involvement in atrocities against Poles (it went both ways) and Jews.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Smarter than Trump. Nastier than Trump. Younger than Trump.
Apart from that, no problem.
If Trump karks it this bastard is in the driver's seat.
Yeah, maybe we all swerved a bullet on 13/07/2024.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
I think you will find that @Mexicanpete is very much one of the critics
I said the visit was an error. Where are your boys Johnson and Farage? Dickheads who of course attended Trump's inauguration.
Johnson and Farage are not my boys
Kemi Badenoch and most of the conservative front bench have come out 100% in support of Zelensky
Remember I am a conservative and vote conservative
I was critical of Starmer offering Trump the State Visit. I said yesterday it was f***ING insanity. I have been proved correct, as has Kinabalu.
You are trying to make this a party political argument. Surely we are beyond that. Starmer made a huge error, but it was probably done from an exercise in persuasion over Trump. The Conservative Grandees who have sold their souls to Trump is indeed a long list starting with Johnson, Truss, Mogg, Jenrick, Patel, Braverman and the list goes on. And let's not forget the Reform traitors. Starmer has made a grave error, but his guilt is minimal compares to those bastards I have listed above.
I consistently reject the right and Reform and want them to lose
I am a conservative and will vote conservative in any elections going forward
Sarah Smith sanewashing Trump on BBC News. Fuck off Sarah Smith!
I dream of the day a newsreader will actually say what is true "Donald Trump is a dangerous lunatic" rather than kidding us that it might be some clever form of absurdist diplomacy or non-Newtonian government.
Sarah Smith’s father will be turning in his grave at his daughter’s views. We Scots remember, however, that she has form for partisan reporting.
SKS has spent his time talking to both of them rather than tweeting. As he should be.
Yes but he should have put out a statement expressing concern and the steps he is taking. Basic comms fail, and not for the first time.
On the lines of "The only thing that matters at this point is to ensure the long term success of Ukraine. To that end I am talking to several of the key people to build the common ground"
Unprecedented. Shocking. This public verbal spat, this haranguing in the White House of a visiting president is dramatic. Zelensky invited it by being argumentative instead of tactfully steering the exchange in a more positive direction. He has been lionised so much that he has developed an inordinate sense of entitlement. He has lectured European leaders and got away with it. It hasn’t worked with Trump and Vance.
The Indian clips on Youtube are always very anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian.
William must scrape what barrels are available.
Anyone remember when William Glenn was strongly pro EU? Has he ever explained why he did such an about turn to alt right fanboy?
It is a strange one for me. For a good few years in the lead up to 2016 William was my mortal enemy (in a PB manner of speaking) with his fanatical support for the EU vs my equally fanatical support for leaving.
Then after the vote he switched to supporting Brexit with a vehemence equal to or exceeding my own, if I remember rightly he was even supporting the actions by the Johnson government that I thought were wrong - such as prorogation and attacking the courts.
Since then he has become more and more right wing until he is almost as far away from me politically now as he was back prior to the referendum but in exactly the opposite direction. I feel like I have stood still and he has swept past me.
Its interesting to see how PBers seem to have moved politically.
I can think of two other leading PBers who seem to have moved significantly to the right.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
As I said last night, the most significant moment was that Trump let Starmer slap him down. He had an “in”.
🚨🚨 High-level Trump sources tell me the White House is now uncertain if they can get the Russians and Ukrainians to stop fighting because this episode with @ZelenskyyUa raised questions about whether he can move forward toward a peace deal. It also raises questions about whether US will pause aid to Ukraine. But Trump is NOT seeking regime change in Ukraine. No discussions about who in Ukraine might be a better leader than Zelenskyy.
Ukrainian officials have reached out this afternoon to senior White House officials desperate to get the deal back on track. But that will not happen today, I'm told. Trump is unwilling to talk to Zelenskyy further today.
When Rubio and Waltz went into the Roosevelt Room to ask Zelenskyy to leave, Rubio made it clear that any further engagements today would be counterproductive. Waltz told Zelenskyy he had made a tremendous mistake, and it was a grave disservice to Ukraine and to Americans, both.
No phone calls between Trump and Putin have been scheduled. But multiple European officials have called top Trump officials since Zelenskyy left asking how the minerals deal can be salvaged.
Trump fully intended to sign the minerals deal today. Two official binders were prepared -- Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and his Ukrainian counterpart and the two presidents were going to sit at a conference table in the East Room and then trumpet their success at podiums.
But there were suspicions before Zelenskyy arrived today that it might fall apart. Because the Trump admin had been pushing for weeks for a minerals deal signing at the ministerial level, and Ukraine had refused. Zelenskyy wanted security guarantees.
US officials thought negotiations would be much harder with **Putin** so today have been been in disbelief that it has been Zelenskyy who has been more difficult, making maximalist demands, sources told me.
Unprecedented. Shocking. This public verbal spat, this haranguing in the White House of a visiting president is dramatic. Zelensky invited it by being argumentative instead of tactfully steering the exchange in a more positive direction. He has been lionised so much that he has developed an inordinate sense of entitlement. He has lectured European leaders and got away with it. It hasn’t worked with Trump and Vance.
The Indian clips on Youtube are always very anti-Ukrainian and pro-Russian.
William must scrape what barrels are available.
Anyone remember when William Glenn was strongly pro EU? Has he ever explained why he did such an about turn to alt right fanboy?
It is a strange one for me. For a good few years in the lead up to 2016 William was my mortal enemy (in a PB manner of speaking) with his fanatical support for the EU vs my equally fanatical support for leaving.
Then after the vote he switched to supporting Brexit with a vehemence equal to or exceeding my own, if I remember rightly he was even supporting the actions by the Johnson government that I thought were wrong - such as prorogation and attacking the courts.
Since then he has become more and more right wing until he is almost as far away from me politically now as he was back prior to the referendum but in exactly the opposite direction. I feel like I have stood still and he has swept past me.
Its interesting to see how PBers seem to have moved politically.
I can think of two other leading PBers who seem to have moved significantly to the right.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
I think you will find that @Mexicanpete is very much one of the critics
I said the visit was an error. Where are your boys Johnson and Farage? Dickheads who of course attended Trump's inauguration.
Johnson and Farage are not my boys
Kemi Badenoch and most of the conservative front bench have come out 100% in support of Zelensky
Remember I am a conservative and vote conservative
Happy birthday, by the way. Will you squeeze an infinitesimal celebration between 23:59 and 00:01, or enjoy a whole day tomorrow? Either way, have a good one. Daffs are out as usual.
Impressed you remember my birthday non birthday this year and thank you
Legally it is microseconds after midnight tonight and as it happens the family will be round tomorrow when I will be 81
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
Starmer not making a statement either way is the correct approach, let's let everyone cool down and then try again. Getting Trump to stick to his promise to keep sanctions on Russia for a extra year that he gave to Starmer is much more important to Ukraine (and Europe) than the feel good factor of picking a side right now.
If Starmer is seen to be moving away from Trump or disrespecting him then that promise goes out of the window so cooler heads are needed
What we need is to get Trump in the room with Zelenskyy here in the UK without that idiot Vance and with Rubio and other more sensible Republicans. We should ensure that Vance isn't invited to the state dinner, make sure Mandy is in the White House for the weeks leading up preparing the ground with Trump and we need to get firm commitments from all across Europe to fund a much larger proportion of Ukraine's support so that the monetary factor goes away for Trump (which really seems to be the big sticking point) even if it means the European countries writing long dated loans to Ukraine at favourable terms so that they can pay back a big portion of US cash support they've given.
All that is perhaps worth a try, but the London meeting needs to plan on the assumption it won't work. I far rather it did work, but there's no point in being a blind optimist. The situation is too urgent.
I would rather he lowers the temperature than escalates for dramatic effect. We need to buy time.
We’re still all assuming Trump and his cabal are rational actors. They’re not. They need to get hardball treatment, as Canada has shown.
It took us 2 decades to realise that about Putin. Are we really going to make the same mistake again?
Sure, but there no sense in escalating now. The damage is done. We need to buy time.
No no no. Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions. Otherwise it’s appeasement.
“Trump needs to feel the downsides if his actions”
Okay. What measures are you suggesting?
Hearts are ruling over heads on here for many at the moment, understandably.
The answer 'what should Starmer do?' seems quite obvious, to me at least. Get our very best people to pull together a plan to (a) get our own military to sufficient strength and (b) build alliances that together will allow us to confidently assert the European view in this as soon as we possibly can.
Work from the date at which we can make that confident assertion - up to that point, do whatever is needed to deescalate. Beyond that point, utterly reject the moral and strategic idiocy from the white house and take no prisoners in our defence of western liberal values.
This is within our power. But it will need a lot of squeamishness in the meantime as we work with the reality that we remain, for the moment, America's poodle.
I agree. In politics you can only sensibly move when you are ready to, only call the vote when you are confident on numbers.
UK defence is so woven in to US defence now, well has been for a long while, both Chagos deals very much greased by that that fact. Which doesn’t give us all that much freedom, in a situation where the Whitehouse has gone loony.
Talking of which, where’s the arch Don Rimmer Leon?
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
I think you will find that @Mexicanpete is very much one of the critics
I said the visit was an error. Where are your boys Johnson and Farage? Dickheads who of course attended Trump's inauguration.
Johnson and Farage are not my boys
Kemi Badenoch and most of the conservative front bench have come out 100% in support of Zelensky
Remember I am a conservative and vote conservative
Happy birthday, by the way. Will you squeeze an infinitesimal celebration between 23:59 and 00:01, or enjoy a whole day tomorrow? Either way, have a good one. Daffs are out as usual.
Impressed you remember my birthday non birthday this year and thank you
Legally it is microseconds after midnight tonight and as it happens the family will be round tomorrow when I will be 81
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
I think you’re naive. I think Starmer understands this. The FO understand this and looking two moves ahead can see the consequences of this, which are far more serious than things appear. Anything you can do to buy time is valuable.
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
I've been waiting all evening for Starmer to come out in resounding support of Ukraine and Zelensky, à la Macron, and disappointed he hasn't.
But now we're told he's been speaking to both Trump and Zelensky...
Is there a small chance that Starmer can patch things up between them again?
Probably not, but it's got to be worth a try.
And with Trump you never know when he's going to flip-flop again.
The alternative is too grim to contemplate, though we will probably have to endure it.
I'll back Starmer here too. The reality is that these European leaders have made supportive tweets but they have no real world value. When push comes to shove, most of the European leaders won't increase support for Ukraine. If Europe has to spend more money on its own defence, then it can't do that and also hand over more weaponry to Ukraine as well.
And it's the same in the UK too. We can't borrow or tax much more and Starmer has already cut foreign aid to increase defence. If we have to increase it further then that means big cuts elsewhere to benefits, pensions, public services or net zero.
Trump is acting like a Mafia Don here but Zelensky should have known this. The unfortunate reality is that Ukraine is a supplicant country and he needed to kiss ass here.
Are we now onto the “Starmer is to blame for inviting Trump for a state visit”?
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Sometimes there are moments of moral clarity, and this is one of them. The US under Trump and Vance is not a trustworthy partner. It can’t be persuaded or bright into the Western camp. It’s gone.
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
We're not at that point yet, though we took a big step towards it this evening for sure.
As it stands America is set to renew sanctions on Russia for another year, that is a tangible gain from this round of European leader visits to the White House and we need to ensure there's no backsliding on that commitment. As much as I would love to see the UK government give full throated support to Ukraine this evening, I'm not sure what positives it would achieve in reality and it has the real possibility of backfiring on all of Europe if Trump sees it as disrespectful and pulls out of the sanctions extensions commitment he made.
Not only that, we do need cooler heads right now and to get Trump and Zelenskyy in the same room again but on neutral ground, somewhere like Buckingham palace.
It’s not obvious to me how much this is was a premeditated shakedown, and how much just Trump doing his daily tv show with Vance (a seeming legitimate Ukrainophobe) shit-stirring from his sofa.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss. On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office. It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
Vance tried to have a go at Starmer yesterday too.
Yes, you’re right. And possibly Macron too? I can’t remember.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull. God only knows what’s driving him.
We have covered this. He's a c**t.
100% But I think it’s useful to try to understand the underlying thought process.
Trump, Musk and Vance all have different “journeys”. So do Hegseth and the rest of them.
Also, Trump runs a chaotic court. Vance may be influential today, but tomorrow it could be Barron Trump, or Donald’s chiropodist, or the ghost of fucking Jacob Marley.
SKS has spent his time talking to both of them rather than tweeting. As he should be.
Yes but he should have put out a statement expressing concern and the steps he is taking. Basic comms fail, and not for the first time.
On the lines of "The only thing that matters at this point is to ensure the long term success of Ukraine. To that end I am talking to several of the key people to build the common ground"
Maybe but who is that comms aimed at? The only people who need to know it are Trump and Zelensky... and he was talking to them.
My prediction: there will be a hastily arranged follow up meeting where Zelensky will wear a suit.
If he wears a suit, perhaps he should also wear the medals he is entiled to wear as well.
Order of Vytautas the Great
In the summer of July 28, 2022, during his visit to Kyiv, Lithuanian President Gitanas Nauseda publicly awarded his Ukrainian colleague and the entire people of Ukraine with the highest award of his country - the Order of Vytautas the Great.
What is this award?
The Order is a state award of the Republic of Lithuania. It was founded in 1930 to reward Lithuanian and foreign citizens for special services to the Lithuanian state. Actually, the highest state award of the Republic of Lithuania is the Order of Vytautas the Great with a golden chain.
Commander of the Grand Cross of the Order of Viestura
A few days after russia's invasion of Ukraine, the Chapter of the Order of Latvia made a unanimous decision to award Zelenskyy with the Order of Viestura of the first degree.
The Order of Viestura - the highest award of the Latvian state - was presented to the President of Ukraine in honor of the personal courage and leadership of Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the defense of pan-European values", - said the chancellor of the Order's Chapter, Sarmite Elerte.
Zelenskyy was awarded the order for his services in the defense of freedom and democratic values in Europe together with the Ukrainian people, as well as for his personal contribution to the development of Lithuanian-Ukrainian interstate relations.
Ronald Reagan Medal of Freedom
The USA also admired Zelensky's courage and desire for freedom. In this connection, on March 7, 2022, the President of Ukraine was awarded the Ronald Reagan Medal of Freedom.
The medal was handed over to the ambassador of Ukraine to the USA. The head of the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation, Frederick Ryan, noted that the high award recognizes the leadership of the head of the Ukrainian state and the indomitable spirit of millions of Ukrainians who defend their right to choose their own future and inspire the entire civilized world to fight for the values of freedom and democracy.
In addition, in November 2022, the US National Constitution Center awarded Zelenskyy the Philadelphia Medal of Freedom. It is awarded to individuals in recognition of their leadership in the pursuit of freedom.
Starmer not making a statement either way is the correct approach, let's let everyone cool down and then try again. Getting Trump to stick to his promise to keep sanctions on Russia for a extra year that he gave to Starmer is much more important to Ukraine (and Europe) than the feel good factor of picking a side right now.
If Starmer is seen to be moving away from Trump or disrespecting him then that promise goes out of the window so cooler heads are needed
What we need is to get Trump in the room with Zelenskyy here in the UK without that idiot Vance and with Rubio and other more sensible Republicans. We should ensure that Vance isn't invited to the state dinner, make sure Mandy is in the White House for the weeks leading up preparing the ground with Trump and we need to get firm commitments from all across Europe to fund a much larger proportion of Ukraine's support so that the monetary factor goes away for Trump (which really seems to be the big sticking point) even if it means the European countries writing long dated loans to Ukraine at favourable terms so that they can pay back a big portion of US cash support they've given.
All that is perhaps worth a try, but the London meeting needs to plan on the assumption it won't work. I far rather it did work, but there's no point in being a blind optimist. The situation is too urgent.
Yes of course we need to prepare for the worst, hence commitments from across Europe to increase funding to Ukraine on the basis that the US will withdraw completely if it all falls apart.
Comments
@williamglenn?
It may still have some utility if it can be held over him. I get the sense it wouldn't have descended into that farce if not for Vance, so a private Starmer:Trump call might help.
Straws clutched etc etc
Did Zelenskyy and Trump sign the deal giving Trump all Ukraine's rare materials?
Thought not and didn't I point all week that Trump was talking rubbish..
Our price for a closer existence with China is China ending any trade with Russia. And leaning on North Korea to do likewise. That at least would give a chance for North Korea, ostensibly grumbling, to get its troops out of the Kursk meat grinder.
If America wants to get into bed with Moscow for trade - well, good luck spending those roubles you'll get paid in.
Boris Johnson and May didn’t pull us out of World Cup after Salisbury, on basis that hurts the people of a country, not its rotten dictatorship who committed the crime - as well as hurting ourselves. That argument holds no truck with you?
The answer 'what should Starmer do?' seems quite obvious, to me at least. Get our very best people to pull together a plan to (a) get our own military to sufficient strength and (b) build alliances that together will allow us to confidently assert the European view in this as soon as we possibly can.
Work from the date at which we can make that confident assertion - up to that point, do whatever is needed to deescalate. Beyond that point, utterly reject the moral and strategic idiocy from the white house and take no prisoners in our defence of western liberal values.
This is within our power. But it will need a lot of squeamishness in the meantime as we work with the reality that we remain, for the moment, America's poodle.
Sold a soul or what?
Like the rest of the fucking GOP party.
Yesterday these same people were saying what a genius move it was.
These same people would have called Starmer a muppet for not offering it if he hadn’t.
As usual, Starmer derangement syndrome has completely fried the brains of several of our posters.
Most of the rest of Europe already has
Zelensky was using it to make his case to the US press and maybe, usefully, could have said a little less, but there was nothing in the exchanges that I'd consider undiplomatic, and Trump aside from the odd typical jibe against his US opponents held court in a cordial fashion. There was little sign of what
was to come until JD Vance went on a pretty much unprovoked attack and Trump eventually turned and joined in.
Whether Vance screwed up and Trump covered for him or whether it was a pre-planned mugging on Vance's and maybe Trump's part, I do not know. I tend to the latter because the lines were there - "see what we're dealing with", but I'm not 100% positive on that.
And if Starmer's "do what is necessary when it is necessary" approach is to talk to the actual actors rather than tweet about it, then fine.
Should American ownership be on the table like it was with the Russians? Quite possibly.
The most pressing question for a lot of the YT right wing personalities has been what America gets out of Making Russia Great Again, how does it help the MAGA agenda. The mineral deal seemed to be a justification but without that there's really nothing for America to gain from MRGA and siding with Russia and the commentators are realising it.
But the moment for that is past. At some point one needs to stand up for what is right. (Plus, of course, the more countries the US slaps tariffs on, the less effective they are.)
The guys over at the Bulwark reckon quite firmly this was a pre-planned and deliberate attack by Vance all agreed in advance with Trumpski.
I suppose the alternative is he is just some dude from the holler who saw red, your honour, and just lashed out on a Friday night after a couple of beers.
But now we're told he's been speaking to both Trump and Zelensky...
Is there a small chance that Starmer can patch things up between them again?
Probably not, but it's got to be worth a try.
And with Trump you never know when he's going to flip-flop again.
The alternative is too grim to contemplate, though we will probably have to endure it.
If Starmer comes down completely on the European side too immediately, he
could also lose any chance of a crucial linking role, or power to set the agenda.
There seems to be a real MAGA meme that somehow Zelensky has hoodwinked the US into wasting untold treasure on the war. I’ve no idea how widely such an idea has taken hold of the American right, but Occam’s Razor suggests it emanates directly from Russian psy-ops.
I don’t blame Starmer for being at a loss.
On one level, today’s drama is simply a bust-up in an office.
It’s certainly too early to be cancelling state visits or Love Actually moments, as gratifying as that might feel.
It does make you wonder if they laid a trap for Zelensky
I know Germany occupied Ukraine during both world wars. I know Lenin had lots of serious pressure from a peace deal with Germany whilst Ukraine still under German occupation. But my supplementary question if I may, wasn’t there some Ukrainian types who enjoyed those German occupation periods? If so, the existence of Ukrainians who like German involvement in their country, was this set up in history prior to WW1, with a Germanic speaking contingent in Ukraine going way back?
Borders were a lot more fluid and indistinct in old pre 19thC days weren’t they, than the ones which define Ukraine as a violated sovereign country today.
It's all his fault apparently.
He is a chaotic, fickle personality.
(I'm not posting a snippet - Pizza arriving - go and read it.)
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-deal-for-gps-will-fix-the-front-door-of-the-nhs
Then after the vote he switched to supporting Brexit with a vehemence equal to or exceeding my own, if I remember rightly he was even supporting the actions by the Johnson government that I thought were wrong - such as prorogation and attacking the courts.
Since then he has become more and more right wing until he is almost as far away from me politically now as he was back prior to the referendum but in exactly the opposite direction. I feel like I have stood still and he has swept past me.
Phillips P. OBrien
@PhillipsPOBrien
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30m
The US is an ally of Putin
Phillips P. OBrien
@PhillipsPOBrien
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1h
If you think this was a disagreement about the mineral deal, you have no idea what happened. Trump was putting pressure on Zelensky to make major concessions, probably agree to Putin's demands, and get no security for Ukraine in return. And Zelensky had the courage to say "no".
If Starmer is seen to be moving away from Trump or disrespecting him then that promise goes out of the window so cooler heads are needed
What we need is to get Trump in the room with Zelenskyy here in the UK without that idiot Vance and with Rubio and other more sensible Republicans. We should ensure that Vance isn't invited to the state dinner, make sure Mandy is in the White House for the weeks leading up preparing the ground with Trump and we need to get firm commitments from all across Europe to fund a much larger proportion of Ukraine's support so that the monetary factor goes away for Trump (which really seems to be the big sticking point) even if it means the European countries writing long dated loans to Ukraine at favourable terms so that they can pay back a big portion of US cash support they've given.
Kemi Badenoch and most of the conservative front bench have come out 100% in support of Zelensky
Remember I am a conservative and vote conservative
Let’s await the judgement of the American people in the polling and ongoing (they are always ongoing) elections.
I actually trust many fellow PBers to give a more reasobable interpretation of events than many of the news media.
Certainly in America it’s not really possible to get news that is not unhealthily biased one way or another.
🚨🚨 High-level Trump sources tell me the White House is now uncertain if they can get the Russians and Ukrainians to stop fighting because this episode with @ZelenskyyUa raised questions about whether he can move forward toward a peace deal. It also raises questions about whether US will pause aid to Ukraine. But Trump is NOT seeking regime change in Ukraine. No discussions about who in Ukraine might be a better leader than Zelenskyy.
Ukrainian officials have reached out this afternoon to senior White House officials desperate to get the deal back on track. But that will not happen today, I'm told. Trump is unwilling to talk to Zelenskyy further today.
When Rubio and Waltz went into the Roosevelt Room to ask Zelenskyy to leave, Rubio made it clear that any further engagements today would be counterproductive. Waltz told Zelenskyy he had made a tremendous mistake, and it was a grave disservice to Ukraine and to Americans, both.
No phone calls between Trump and Putin have been scheduled. But multiple European officials have called top Trump officials since Zelenskyy left asking how the minerals deal can be salvaged.
Trump fully intended to sign the minerals deal today. Two official binders were prepared -- Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and his Ukrainian counterpart and the two presidents were going to sit at a conference table in the East Room and then trumpet their success at podiums.
But there were suspicions before Zelenskyy arrived today that it might fall apart. Because the Trump admin had been pushing for weeks for a minerals deal signing at the ministerial level, and Ukraine had refused. Zelenskyy wanted security guarantees.
US officials thought negotiations would be much harder with **Putin** so today have been been in disbelief that it has been Zelenskyy who has been more difficult, making maximalist demands, sources told me.
As he should be.
Come join the dark side, you know you want to, really.
Germany supported Ukrainian independence in WW1, to divide Russia.
I suspect the German sensitivity is mostly regarding the Third Reich. And yes some Ukrainians collaborated, but it was hard to decide between Stalin and Hitler (as with the Balts, who were invaded once by the Germans and twice by Russia)
I have learnt much from recent events and that’s generally many on those opposing sides still fundamentally know right from wrong.
You are trying to make this a party political argument. Surely we are beyond that. Starmer made a huge error, but it was probably done from an exercise in persuasion over Trump. The Conservative Grandees who have sold their souls to Trump is indeed a long list starting with Johnson, Truss, Mogg, Jenrick, Patel, Braverman and the list goes on. And let's not forget the Reform traitors. Starmer has made a grave error, but his guilt is minimal compares to those bastards I have listed above.
Legally it is microseconds after midnight tonight and as it happens the family will be round tomorrow when I will be 81
Zelenskyy should take Klitschko next time.
Apart from that, no problem.
(Thought someone had better ask this Russian Troll our standard question given @Malmesbury isn't around).
I think it’ll take a while for many Brits to understand this. Especially after the flattery yesterday. But it’s the sad truth.
The Tories seem to have understood this. So have the Lib Dems, sometime back. Starmer needs ti wake up now. He’s trying the same back channel diplomacy that Macron tried with Putin in 2022. It doesn’t work with evil people.
Vance seems to be the licensed pitbull.
God only knows what’s driving him.
I am a conservative and will vote conservative in any elections going forward
On the lines of "The only thing that matters at this point is to ensure the long term success of Ukraine. To that end I am talking to several of the key people to build the common ground"
I can think of two other leading PBers who seem to have moved significantly to the right.
And now, 24 hours later, sod all that.
He's a c**t.
I far rather it did work, but there's no point in being a blind optimist. The situation is too urgent.
UK defence is so woven in to US defence now, well has been for a long while, both Chagos deals very much greased by that that fact. Which doesn’t give us all that much freedom, in a situation where the Whitehouse has gone loony.
Talking of which, where’s the arch Don Rimmer Leon?
Where’s Leon? Swallowed by his own sandpit?
Late night gestures and tweets, though satisfying are counter productive.
And it's the same in the UK too. We can't borrow or tax much more and Starmer has already cut foreign aid to increase defence. If we have to increase it further then that means big cuts elsewhere to benefits, pensions, public services or net zero.
Trump is acting like a Mafia Don here but Zelensky should have known this. The unfortunate reality is that Ukraine is a supplicant country and he needed to kiss ass here.
As it stands America is set to renew sanctions on Russia for another year, that is a tangible gain from this round of European leader visits to the White House and we need to ensure there's no backsliding on that commitment. As much as I would love to see the UK government give full throated support to Ukraine this evening, I'm not sure what positives it would achieve in reality and it has the real possibility of backfiring on all of Europe if Trump sees it as disrespectful and pulls out of the sanctions extensions commitment he made.
Not only that, we do need cooler heads right now and to get Trump and Zelenskyy in the same room again but on neutral ground, somewhere like Buckingham palace.
But I think it’s useful to try to understand the underlying thought process.
Trump, Musk and Vance all have different “journeys”.
So do Hegseth and the rest of them.
Also, Trump runs a chaotic court. Vance may be influential today, but tomorrow it could be Barron Trump, or Donald’s chiropodist, or the ghost of fucking Jacob Marley.
Order of Vytautas the Great
In the summer of July 28, 2022, during his visit to Kyiv, Lithuanian President Gitanas Nauseda publicly awarded his Ukrainian colleague and the entire people of Ukraine with the highest award of his country - the Order of Vytautas the Great.
What is this award?
The Order is a state award of the Republic of Lithuania. It was founded in 1930 to reward Lithuanian and foreign citizens for special services to the Lithuanian state. Actually, the highest state award of the Republic of Lithuania is the Order of Vytautas the Great with a golden chain.
Commander of the Grand Cross of the Order of Viestura
A few days after russia's invasion of Ukraine, the Chapter of the Order of Latvia made a unanimous decision to award Zelenskyy with the Order of Viestura of the first degree.
The Order of Viestura - the highest award of the Latvian state - was presented to the President of Ukraine in honor of the personal courage and leadership of Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the defense of pan-European values", - said the chancellor of the Order's Chapter, Sarmite Elerte.
Zelenskyy was awarded the order for his services in the defense of freedom and democratic values in Europe together with the Ukrainian people, as well as for his personal contribution to the development of Lithuanian-Ukrainian interstate relations.
Ronald Reagan Medal of Freedom
The USA also admired Zelensky's courage and desire for freedom. In this connection, on March 7, 2022, the President of Ukraine was awarded the Ronald Reagan Medal of Freedom.
The medal was handed over to the ambassador of Ukraine to the USA. The head of the Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation, Frederick Ryan, noted that the high award recognizes the leadership of the head of the Ukrainian state and the indomitable spirit of millions of Ukrainians who defend their right to choose their own future and inspire the entire civilized world to fight for the values of freedom and democracy.
In addition, in November 2022, the US National Constitution Center awarded Zelenskyy the Philadelphia Medal of Freedom. It is awarded to individuals in recognition of their leadership in the pursuit of freedom.