You’ve never had it so good – politicalbetting.com

algarkirk said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1892175665212145977

NEW: Boris Johnson says Donald Trump’s comments overnight are wrong, calls for Russian assets to be seized to arm Ukraine

“Of course Ukraine didn’t start the war. You might as well say that America attacked Japan at Pearl Harbor.

Of course a country undergoing a violent invasion should not be staging elections. There was no general election in the UK from 1935 to 1945.

Of course Zelenskyy’s ratings are not 4%. They are actually about the same as Trump’s.

Trump’s statements are not intended to be historically accurate but to shock Europeans into action.

In particular the US can see $300bn of frozen Russian assets - mainly in Belgium. That is cash that could and should be used to pay Ukraine and compensate the US for its support.

Why is Europe preventing the unfreezing of Putin’s cash?

The US believes Belgium, France and other countries are blocking. It’s absurd. We need to get serious and fast.”

Epic levels of cope from a man who cannot bear to admit he was wrong.

Johnson, for all his faults, was 100% in supporting Ukraine and is consistent today

I don't follow Farage or Reform minute by minute, but do I get the impression that they are being a bit quiet so far about the Trump/Putin/Ukraine events and comments over the last 24 hours or so?

Reform have quite a lot to lose; I can't see how they can credibly not take sides over some tricky things at the moment.

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

Nigelb said:

Pulpstar said:

Why has the postman been banned ?

I'm guessing either OSA or libel, for those are very easy to breach in this country if you're not careful.. Tbh if/when people are banned a bold note from @PBModerator on the reason for the ban would be handy..

Blanche ran foul of the ban on discussion of grooming, which we've been warned about several dozen times. No idea about felix.

Sandpit will, I hope, be back soon.
Ukraine is quite personal for him, so ad homs and/or amateur psychoanalysis are uncalled for.

Taz said:

dixiedean said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

I do hope we have one of those pro-Putin LDs on here. Would be fascinating to examine in more detail. Maybe one of our Saturday visitors?

Zelenskyy is illegitimate due to his poor record on potholes and insufficient PR?

He's done little for active travel and his approach to cycle paths leaves a lot to be desired.

Taz said:

Nigelb said:

Pulpstar said:

Why has the postman been banned ?

I'm guessing either OSA or libel, for those are very easy to breach in this country if you're not careful.. Tbh if/when people are banned a bold note from @PBModerator on the reason for the ban would be handy..

Blanche ran foul of the ban on discussion of grooming, which we've been warned about several dozen times. No idea about felix.

Sandpit will, I hope, be back soon.
Ukraine is quite personal for him, so ad homs and/or amateur psychoanalysis are uncalled for.

Yes. Unlike most people here it is very personal for him and for him to be regularly abused for his opinion and one person even called him a Pro-Putin shill, that is really going too far.

As someone else said. We post here for fun. Where's the fun in coming here, putting forward a view, and being attacked on a daily basis for it by the same character ?

Big_G_NorthWales said:

algarkirk said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1892175665212145977

NEW: Boris Johnson says Donald Trump’s comments overnight are wrong, calls for Russian assets to be seized to arm Ukraine

“Of course Ukraine didn’t start the war. You might as well say that America attacked Japan at Pearl Harbor.

Of course a country undergoing a violent invasion should not be staging elections. There was no general election in the UK from 1935 to 1945.

Of course Zelenskyy’s ratings are not 4%. They are actually about the same as Trump’s.

Trump’s statements are not intended to be historically accurate but to shock Europeans into action.

In particular the US can see $300bn of frozen Russian assets - mainly in Belgium. That is cash that could and should be used to pay Ukraine and compensate the US for its support.

Why is Europe preventing the unfreezing of Putin’s cash?

The US believes Belgium, France and other countries are blocking. It’s absurd. We need to get serious and fast.”

Epic levels of cope from a man who cannot bear to admit he was wrong.

Johnson, for all his faults, was 100% in supporting Ukraine and is consistent today

I don't follow Farage or Reform minute by minute, but do I get the impression that they are being a bit quiet so far about the Trump/Putin/Ukraine events and comments over the last 24 hours or so?

Reform have quite a lot to lose; I can't see how they can credibly not take sides over some tricky things at the moment.

They are in a precarious position all of their own making

eek said:

Leon said:

JohnLilburne said:

bigjohnowls said:

I see Kiev was once the capital of Russia

Putin has compromised by not requiring its return!

Perhaps it was the threat of SKS boots

If you belive Kyiv was the capital of Russia you have drunk the kool aid. Russia is the successor state to Muscovy, I believe Ivan the Terrible was the first to claim to be Tsar of all Russia. Muscovy was a relocation of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir and Suzdal, which was a tributory state of what is now known as Kyivan Rus. It broke up quite quickly into successor states of which Vladimir-Suzdal was originally fairly minor, there were plenty of other including in Ukraine such as Galicia-Volhynia and Chernihiv. At that time "Rus" meant the whole East Slavic people, who later diverged into Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians. Ukraine had quite different genesis from current Russia - it was formed from the "Ruthene" parts of Poland-Lithuania plus cossack hosts, and a southern littoral that was Ottoman. Later parts of Western Ukraine became Austrian. There was also a substantial Polish population that Stalin ethnically cleansed - a lot of Wrocław Poles are descended from deportees from Lviv (Lwów)

Have you been to Kyiv? I suspect you might - you’re very well travelled

If you have like me (I went during the war last summer) then you’ll know that Russia’s connection to Kyiv is not imaginary or overdone. There really is a deep intertwining between Kyivan rus and the later Russian nation. Kyiv is the cradle of Russian orthodoxy for starters

This is not true of a city like Lviv and western Ukraine in general - they are much more western, European, Catholic, Teutonic-Slavic

And Odessa only exists because of Russia

It’s hard to find an analogy for the UK re Ukraine but imagine if Scotland went independent taking with it Canterbury, Oxford, Bath and Glastonbury

The English would find that emotionally very difficult

You analogy there is wrong - it would be the equivalent of Scotland going independent and not taking Corby with it. Then using Corby’s history of relocated Scottish steel workers to justify invading England

FF43 said:

Sean_F said:

Barnesian said:

FF43 said:

The man Americans have elected president:

"Today I heard, ‘Oh, well, we weren’t invited. Well, you’ve been there for three years. You should have ended it — three years. You should have never been there. You should have never started it. You should have made a deal.

We have a situation where we haven’t had elections in Ukraine, where we have martial law in Ukraine, where the leader in Ukraine — I mean I hate to say it, but he’s down at 4% approval rating — and the country’s been blown to smithereens,”

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/02/18/trump-blames-zelenskyy-ukraine-war-020517

The 4% approval rating is a straight out ridiculous lie.

Every single word is a lie.

Boris Johnson helpfully tells us Trump isn't intending to be "historically accurate" and it's all Europe's fault.



When are we Europeans going to stop being scandalised about Donald Trump and start helping him to end this war?

Of course Ukraine didn’t start the war. You might as well say that America attacked Japan at Pearl Harbor.

Of course a country undergoing a violent invasion should not be staging elections. There was no general election in the UK from 1935 to 1945.

Of course Zelenskyy’s ratings are not 4%. They are actually about the same as Trump’s.

Trump’s statements are not intended to be historically accurate but to shock Europeans into action.

In particular the US can see $300bn of frozen Russian assets - mainly in Belgium. That is cash that could and should be used to pay Ukraine and compensate the US for its support.

Why is Europe preventing the unfreezing of Putin’s cash?

The US believes Belgium, France and other countries are blocking. It’s absurd. We need to get serious and fast.

https://x.com/BorisJohnson/status/1892174821368201619

MattW said:

bondegezou said:

HYUFD said:

Reform UK voters are much more likely to have a positive view of Donald Trump than other voters, slightly more likely to have a positive view of Vladimir Putin, and less likely to have a positive view of Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Donald Trump - net favourability scores
Lib Dem: -84
Labour: -82
Conservative: -40
Reform UK: +38

Vladimir Putin
Labour: -94
Conservative: -92
Lib Dem: -91
Reform UK: -68

Volodymyr Zelenskyy
Lib Dem: +75
Labour: +66
Conservative: +65
Reform UK: +12


https://x.com/YouGov/status/1891818765404471598

Thanks, HYUFD. This repeats what we have seen in other polling: the split is between Reform UK supporters and everyone else. It suggests that Badenoch should not be trying to out-Reform Reform, but should instead be emphasising the differences.

The next question is: why? Why are Reform UK supporters so different in their views? Do they just have different views about how to solve the problems in the world? And/or do they have different goals? Or are they victims of mass disinformation?

I think Reform UK supporters are perhaps (even?) more siloed than the rest. Others' views may differ - I'd be interested to hear.

Channels such as GBN, maybe Talk TV (but I can't comment as I don't track it), tabloids (including much of the Telegraph) feed misinformation into their "news" output.

Alongside that there is also a type of supporter / voter who feel victimised and ignored and have disengaged, but re-engaged with Reform quite passively - I know some who vote Lee Anderson. They feel there is no alternative, because all the other options have failed. Keeping these corralled is imo one reason for the "Uniparty" type rhetoric.

The propaganda from Reform, but also from parts of the wider Right, is all about very personalised demonisation of Starmer and largely false fears about our society, which is where Musk tries to get leverage. And it gets it's response on social media.

And there is a bleed in of much harder politics than we have here from the Usonian (!) Right, plus the hard right (choose your word) faction who are in Reform, or are Militant-in-Labour pattern entryists.

AFAICS Reform are the only UK *party* (with MPs) still genuflecting to Trump (I may have missed a couple of independents). We need to see how much it unwinds if we get genuine national peril coming closer.

There are numbers of RefUk supporters who I think will wake up without admitting they ever got anything wrong, some who are too far in to back out easily and may maintain their dogma or just pipe down, and others who will run away to hide with their money for the duration. All of these happened as WW2 built up.

There will also be a changed dynamic as, and to the extent which, the Starmer Govt policies succeed.

algarkirk said:

MattW said:

bondegezou said:

HYUFD said:

Reform UK voters are much more likely to have a positive view of Donald Trump than other voters, slightly more likely to have a positive view of Vladimir Putin, and less likely to have a positive view of Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Donald Trump - net favourability scores
Lib Dem: -84
Labour: -82
Conservative: -40
Reform UK: +38

Vladimir Putin
Labour: -94
Conservative: -92
Lib Dem: -91
Reform UK: -68

Volodymyr Zelenskyy
Lib Dem: +75
Labour: +66
Conservative: +65
Reform UK: +12


https://x.com/YouGov/status/1891818765404471598

Thanks, HYUFD. This repeats what we have seen in other polling: the split is between Reform UK supporters and everyone else. It suggests that Badenoch should not be trying to out-Reform Reform, but should instead be emphasising the differences.

The next question is: why? Why are Reform UK supporters so different in their views? Do they just have different views about how to solve the problems in the world? And/or do they have different goals? Or are they victims of mass disinformation?

I think Reform UK supporters are perhaps (even?) more siloed than the rest. Others' views may differ - I'd be interested to hear.

Channels such as GBN, maybe Talk TV (but I can't comment as I don't track it), tabloids (including much of the Telegraph) feed misinformation into their "news" output.

Alongside that there is also a type of supporter / voter who feel victimised and ignored and have disengaged, but re-engaged with Reform quite passively - I know some who vote Lee Anderson. They feel there is no alternative, because all the other options have failed. Keeping these corralled is imo one reason for the "Uniparty" type rhetoric.

The propaganda from Reform, but also from parts of the wider Right, is all about very personalised demonisation of Starmer and largely false fears about our society, which is where Musk tries to get leverage. And it gets it's response on social media.

And there is a bleed in of much harder politics than we have here from the Usonian (!) Right, plus the hard right (choose your word) faction who are in Reform, or are Militant-in-Labour pattern entryists.

AFAICS Reform are the only UK *party* (with MPs) still genuflecting to Trump (I may have missed a couple of independents). We need to see how much it unwinds if we get genuine national peril coming closer.

There are numbers of RefUk supporters who I think will wake up without admitting they ever got anything wrong, some who are too far in to back out easily and may maintain their dogma or just pipe down, and others who will run away to hide with their money for the duration. All of these happened as WW2 built up.

There will also be a changed dynamic as, and to the extent which, the Starmer Govt policies succeed.

Worth keeping an eye on whether Boris is reflecting on whether the chance of a Churchill moment could still come. It is hard to imagine anyone else being a sort of universal solvent and glue to unstitch Reform voters from extreme Trumpism, bind them to a pro western Toryism and shore up at least some of the old Tory vote.

JosiasJessop said:

Taz said:

Nigelb said:

Pulpstar said:

Why has the postman been banned ?

I'm guessing either OSA or libel, for those are very easy to breach in this country if you're not careful.. Tbh if/when people are banned a bold note from @PBModerator on the reason for the ban would be handy..

Blanche ran foul of the ban on discussion of grooming, which we've been warned about several dozen times. No idea about felix.

Sandpit will, I hope, be back soon.
Ukraine is quite personal for him, so ad homs and/or amateur psychoanalysis are uncalled for.

Yes. Unlike most people here it is very personal for him and for him to be regularly abused for his opinion and one person even called him a Pro-Putin shill, that is really going too far.

As someone else said. We post here for fun. Where's the fun in coming here, putting forward a view, and being attacked on a daily basis for it by the same character ?

That is a misrepresentation of the position. I thoroughly believe he has a strong connection to Ukraine, and wants Ukraine to win.

But he also supports Trump, Musk and the GOP, who have been selling Ukraine down the river for over a year now (e.g. over the many months of delay to the Ukraine aid caused by the GOP, which cost many Ukrainian lives).

And he also watches, promotes, and excuses, channels that are pro-Putin shills. As just one example, his defence of Tim Pool, whose anti-Ukraine views were (ahem) strong, and who it turned out had an 'accidental' Russian paymaster.

I see all of this as utterly contradictory, and it's actually interesting to find out why the apparent contradiction is there. As I've asked him several times: what am I missing in his position?

Dura_Ace said:

eek said:

algarkirk said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1892175665212145977

NEW: Boris Johnson says Donald Trump’s comments overnight are wrong, calls for Russian assets to be seized to arm Ukraine

“Of course Ukraine didn’t start the war. You might as well say that America attacked Japan at Pearl Harbor.

Of course a country undergoing a violent invasion should not be staging elections. There was no general election in the UK from 1935 to 1945.

Of course Zelenskyy’s ratings are not 4%. They are actually about the same as Trump’s.

Trump’s statements are not intended to be historically accurate but to shock Europeans into action.

In particular the US can see $300bn of frozen Russian assets - mainly in Belgium. That is cash that could and should be used to pay Ukraine and compensate the US for its support.

Why is Europe preventing the unfreezing of Putin’s cash?

The US believes Belgium, France and other countries are blocking. It’s absurd. We need to get serious and fast.”

Epic levels of cope from a man who cannot bear to admit he was wrong.

Johnson, for all his faults, was 100% in supporting Ukraine and is consistent today

I don't follow Farage or Reform minute by minute, but do I get the impression that they are being a bit quiet so far about the Trump/Putin/Ukraine events and comments over the last 24 hours or so?

Reform have quite a lot to lose; I can't see how they can credibly not take sides over some tricky things at the moment.

Reform have taken an isolationist view on how to deal with the Ukraine, which is fine until Russia decides to take over Poland or similar at which point we would probably have preferred to have done something sooner

A reminder that Russia can't take over Kursk which is a place inside Russia. The idea that they are going to roll across all of Ukraine and invade Poland is farcical.

Foxy said:

JosiasJessop said:

kamski said:

JosiasJessop said:

kamski said:

Casino_Royale said:

JosiasJessop said:

Casino_Royale said:

JosiasJessop said:

Apparently the Toronto crash was the fault of all-women crew:

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1892081329312813478

This is were the 'anti-woke' agenda has been heading for some time: not just against woke, but against women, and against anyone who dares to be different.

Thus ensuring you double-down against it, turn up the volume of your hyper-liberalism, further fuelling polarisation and, in your everything or nothing duel, risk losing everything. Including losing liberalism itself.

See where this ends? See how important it is to moderate it?

Of course you don't and won't. Not a bit of it.

How is not automatically blaming the women 'hyper-liberalism' ?

That's what I'm commenting on. The way when anything like this happens, certain people look for any woman to blame. It happens time and time again with incidents. Often followed by some guff about DEI.

Sometimes a woman might be to blame; but it's the automatic "Oh my God it's a woman's fault!" that is indefensible.

It's offensive, wrong, and dickish. But if you seek knobbish views out you will find them.

Which you will because, for you, this is about confirmation bias and finding any reason possible to dismiss the (very real and serious) concerns about Woke and its overreach.

This idiotic guy and you. You both need each other.

I don't usually agree with you Casino, but I'm with you on this. Why quote some random anonymous arsehole on twitter? it's stupid, annoying, counter-productive and just helps promote said random anonymous arsehole.

Because the 'random anonymous arsehole' is very much liked by the algorithm, and often retweeted by Musky Baby himself. The 'random anonymous arsehole' has a massive reach; perhaps more than a modest newspaper.

I'll take your word for it. How many followers do they have?

Of course you linking to the arsehole is helping their reach, so I would say counter-productive. I think most of us are already aware that the algorithm and Musk are promoting a lot of arseholes, if that's your point.

I would find a complaint about Musk retweeting it less stupid, if he did.

EndWokeness has 3.5 million followers. And Musk regularly retweets his stuff.

(incidentally, isn't the fact we still call them 'retweets' another indication of the stupidity of renaming the platform X)

Are they seriously blaming "woman drivers" for the Toronto crash?

I though Bernard Manning was dead.

boulay said:

MattW said:

algarkirk said:

MattW said:

bondegezou said:

HYUFD said:

Reform UK voters are much more likely to have a positive view of Donald Trump than other voters, slightly more likely to have a positive view of Vladimir Putin, and less likely to have a positive view of Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Donald Trump - net favourability scores
Lib Dem: -84
Labour: -82
Conservative: -40
Reform UK: +38

Vladimir Putin
Labour: -94
Conservative: -92
Lib Dem: -91
Reform UK: -68

Volodymyr Zelenskyy
Lib Dem: +75
Labour: +66
Conservative: +65
Reform UK: +12


https://x.com/YouGov/status/1891818765404471598

Thanks, HYUFD. This repeats what we have seen in other polling: the split is between Reform UK supporters and everyone else. It suggests that Badenoch should not be trying to out-Reform Reform, but should instead be emphasising the differences.

The next question is: why? Why are Reform UK supporters so different in their views? Do they just have different views about how to solve the problems in the world? And/or do they have different goals? Or are they victims of mass disinformation?

I think Reform UK supporters are perhaps (even?) more siloed than the rest. Others' views may differ - I'd be interested to hear.

Channels such as GBN, maybe Talk TV (but I can't comment as I don't track it), tabloids (including much of the Telegraph) feed misinformation into their "news" output.

Alongside that there is also a type of supporter / voter who feel victimised and ignored and have disengaged, but re-engaged with Reform quite passively - I know some who vote Lee Anderson. They feel there is no alternative, because all the other options have failed. Keeping these corralled is imo one reason for the "Uniparty" type rhetoric.

The propaganda from Reform, but also from parts of the wider Right, is all about very personalised demonisation of Starmer and largely false fears about our society, which is where Musk tries to get leverage. And it gets it's response on social media.

And there is a bleed in of much harder politics than we have here from the Usonian (!) Right, plus the hard right (choose your word) faction who are in Reform, or are Militant-in-Labour pattern entryists.

AFAICS Reform are the only UK *party* (with MPs) still genuflecting to Trump (I may have missed a couple of independents). We need to see how much it unwinds if we get genuine national peril coming closer.

There are numbers of RefUk supporters who I think will wake up without admitting they ever got anything wrong, some who are too far in to back out easily and may maintain their dogma or just pipe down, and others who will run away to hide with their money for the duration. All of these happened as WW2 built up.

There will also be a changed dynamic as, and to the extent which, the Starmer Govt policies succeed.

Worth keeping an eye on whether Boris is reflecting on whether the chance of a Churchill moment could still come. It is hard to imagine anyone else being a sort of universal solvent and glue to unstitch Reform voters from extreme Trumpism, bind them to a pro western Toryism and shore up at least some of the old Tory vote.

I wonder if there is a possible official representational role for Boris. TBH I think it would be difficult, as it would need a role where competence is not required - a kind of Hangus the Monkey for Hartlepool FC, a mascot.

Have we had one before?

I hear that’s the current requirement for POTUS. And Boris is US born as well so perfect.

boulay said:

MattW said:

algarkirk said:

MattW said:

bondegezou said:

HYUFD said:

Reform UK voters are much more likely to have a positive view of Donald Trump than other voters, slightly more likely to have a positive view of Vladimir Putin, and less likely to have a positive view of Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Donald Trump - net favourability scores
Lib Dem: -84
Labour: -82
Conservative: -40
Reform UK: +38

Vladimir Putin
Labour: -94
Conservative: -92
Lib Dem: -91
Reform UK: -68

Volodymyr Zelenskyy
Lib Dem: +75
Labour: +66
Conservative: +65
Reform UK: +12


https://x.com/YouGov/status/1891818765404471598

Thanks, HYUFD. This repeats what we have seen in other polling: the split is between Reform UK supporters and everyone else. It suggests that Badenoch should not be trying to out-Reform Reform, but should instead be emphasising the differences.

The next question is: why? Why are Reform UK supporters so different in their views? Do they just have different views about how to solve the problems in the world? And/or do they have different goals? Or are they victims of mass disinformation?

I think Reform UK supporters are perhaps (even?) more siloed than the rest. Others' views may differ - I'd be interested to hear.

Channels such as GBN, maybe Talk TV (but I can't comment as I don't track it), tabloids (including much of the Telegraph) feed misinformation into their "news" output.

Alongside that there is also a type of supporter / voter who feel victimised and ignored and have disengaged, but re-engaged with Reform quite passively - I know some who vote Lee Anderson. They feel there is no alternative, because all the other options have failed. Keeping these corralled is imo one reason for the "Uniparty" type rhetoric.

The propaganda from Reform, but also from parts of the wider Right, is all about very personalised demonisation of Starmer and largely false fears about our society, which is where Musk tries to get leverage. And it gets it's response on social media.

And there is a bleed in of much harder politics than we have here from the Usonian (!) Right, plus the hard right (choose your word) faction who are in Reform, or are Militant-in-Labour pattern entryists.

AFAICS Reform are the only UK *party* (with MPs) still genuflecting to Trump (I may have missed a couple of independents). We need to see how much it unwinds if we get genuine national peril coming closer.

There are numbers of RefUk supporters who I think will wake up without admitting they ever got anything wrong, some who are too far in to back out easily and may maintain their dogma or just pipe down, and others who will run away to hide with their money for the duration. All of these happened as WW2 built up.

There will also be a changed dynamic as, and to the extent which, the Starmer Govt policies succeed.

Worth keeping an eye on whether Boris is reflecting on whether the chance of a Churchill moment could still come. It is hard to imagine anyone else being a sort of universal solvent and glue to unstitch Reform voters from extreme Trumpism, bind them to a pro western Toryism and shore up at least some of the old Tory vote.

I wonder if there is a possible official representational role for Boris. TBH I think it would be difficult, as it would need a role where competence is not required - a kind of Hangus the Monkey for Hartlepool FC, a mascot.

Have we had one before?

I hear that’s the current requirement for POTUS. And Boris is US born as well so perfect.

bondegezou said:

MattW said:

algarkirk said:

MattW said:

bondegezou said:

HYUFD said:

Reform UK voters are much more likely to have a positive view of Donald Trump than other voters, slightly more likely to have a positive view of Vladimir Putin, and less likely to have a positive view of Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Donald Trump - net favourability scores
Lib Dem: -84
Labour: -82
Conservative: -40
Reform UK: +38

Vladimir Putin
Labour: -94
Conservative: -92
Lib Dem: -91
Reform UK: -68

Volodymyr Zelenskyy
Lib Dem: +75
Labour: +66
Conservative: +65
Reform UK: +12


https://x.com/YouGov/status/1891818765404471598

Thanks, HYUFD. This repeats what we have seen in other polling: the split is between Reform UK supporters and everyone else. It suggests that Badenoch should not be trying to out-Reform Reform, but should instead be emphasising the differences.

The next question is: why? Why are Reform UK supporters so different in their views? Do they just have different views about how to solve the problems in the world? And/or do they have different goals? Or are they victims of mass disinformation?

I think Reform UK supporters are perhaps (even?) more siloed than the rest. Others' views may differ - I'd be interested to hear.

Channels such as GBN, maybe Talk TV (but I can't comment as I don't track it), tabloids (including much of the Telegraph) feed misinformation into their "news" output.

Alongside that there is also a type of supporter / voter who feel victimised and ignored and have disengaged, but re-engaged with Reform quite passively - I know some who vote Lee Anderson. They feel there is no alternative, because all the other options have failed. Keeping these corralled is imo one reason for the "Uniparty" type rhetoric.

The propaganda from Reform, but also from parts of the wider Right, is all about very personalised demonisation of Starmer and largely false fears about our society, which is where Musk tries to get leverage. And it gets it's response on social media.

And there is a bleed in of much harder politics than we have here from the Usonian (!) Right, plus the hard right (choose your word) faction who are in Reform, or are Militant-in-Labour pattern entryists.

AFAICS Reform are the only UK *party* (with MPs) still genuflecting to Trump (I may have missed a couple of independents). We need to see how much it unwinds if we get genuine national peril coming closer.

There are numbers of RefUk supporters who I think will wake up without admitting they ever got anything wrong, some who are too far in to back out easily and may maintain their dogma or just pipe down, and others who will run away to hide with their money for the duration. All of these happened as WW2 built up.

There will also be a changed dynamic as, and to the extent which, the Starmer Govt policies succeed.

Worth keeping an eye on whether Boris is reflecting on whether the chance of a Churchill moment could still come. It is hard to imagine anyone else being a sort of universal solvent and glue to unstitch Reform voters from extreme Trumpism, bind them to a pro western Toryism and shore up at least some of the old Tory vote.

I wonder if there is a possible official representational role for Boris. TBH I think it would be difficult, as it would need a role where competence is not required - a kind of Hangus the Monkey for Hartlepool FC, a mascot.

Have we had one before?

He might be a good ambassador to the US at a time like this.

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

If Foxy were Sandpit he'd flounce after that abuse.

But centrist dads are made of sterner stuff.

nico67 said:

glw said:

MattW said:

I'm pretty much with Rochdale on this. Even without the malevolence, Trump is headed right back to a series of golden ages that mainly exist in his head, such as to the oil era economically via "Drill Baby Drill", and cannot be recreated now.

But his grass roots supporters won't get off the helter-skelter until they crash because they have fallen for the stuff themselves. I mark the oligarch supporters down as operating in their self-interest with a few variations.

In the process he is burning down most of the things the USA actually needs to move forward, internally and externally, at incalculable cost for the USA and the rest of the world.

The main beneficiary of all this craziness won't even be Russia but China, who are getting a good few decades worth of growth, power, influence, might handed to them on a plate by Trump.

We should hitch our wagon to China . I mean given the US is run by a morally bankrupt corrupt administration we shouldn’t get too moral now.

Scott_xP said:

MattW said:

Good morning everyone.

Sorry to see @Sandpit take a break. A different view, even though I don't agree on that many things with him these days.

For a diversion. Yesterday we were talking about the Bismarck wreck having lost it's gun turrets.

Gun turrets were also involved in the wreck of HMS Victoria, a battlecruiser which sank off the coast of Lebanon in 1893 - and is one of a very few wrecks which is stuck vertically in the seabed (mud), with the stern poking up 100 ft or more. It had an enormous turret that took it straight down, after a collision caused by Admiral Tryon, trying too hard. He went down with the ship and ~350 others. It had a ram bow which helped it keep together.

It reportedly still has one of Nelson's swords on board, but is in about 400ft of water.

My image quota.

Short video about finding it in 2004:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKVymgGyYKo

Also FPT

No_Offence_Alan said:

PoodleInASlipstream said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Heavy old beasts but you wonder how much vertical movement there was in really rough seas,

Not much. It takes a great deal of force to move a 1000 ton turret vertically, although it did sometimes happen there was enough movement to knock the turret off its bearings. The German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau both had their forward turrets disabled in heavy seas multiple times, although their turrets were fairly light as they only mounted 11-inch guns compared to the 14/15/16-inch on most battleships.

Fun fact: the bearings which allow the Jodrell Bank radio telescope to rotate vertically came from battleship gun turrets.

That appears to be a well known story, but begs an obvious question

The start of this discussion was the observation that gun turrets rely on gravity to keep them in place. The bearings explicitly and exclusively support vertical loads.

The Jodrell Bank trunnion bearings are horizontal, requiring an entirely different design...

Stereodog said:

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

If Foxy were Sandpit he'd flounce after that abuse.

But centrist dads are made of sterner stuff.

Centrist dad has to be my least favourite slang term ever. It's meaningless by itself and the only people who understand the joke are people who live in the same echo chamber as those they are sniggering at. It's like Communists calling other socialists Trotskyites.

Taz said:

dixiedean said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

I do hope we have one of those pro-Putin LDs on here. Would be fascinating to examine in more detail. Maybe one of our Saturday visitors?

Zelenskyy is illegitimate due to his poor record on potholes and insufficient PR?

He's done little for active travel and his approach to cycle paths leaves a lot to be desired.

Gardenwalker said:

Apart from Trump’s despicable suggestion that Ukraine started the war, I’m not sure PB has fully absorbed the horror of the US’s attempt to impose a economic treaty on Ukraine, with terms worse than those imposed at Versailles on Germany.

That document will go down in infamy, I can’t think of anything analogous in modern times.

TimS said:

viewcode said:

nico67 said:

glw said:

MattW said:

I'm pretty much with Rochdale on this. Even without the malevolence, Trump is headed right back to a series of golden ages that mainly exist in his head, such as to the oil era economically via "Drill Baby Drill", and cannot be recreated now.

But his grass roots supporters won't get off the helter-skelter until they crash because they have fallen for the stuff themselves. I mark the oligarch supporters down as operating in their self-interest with a few variations.

In the process he is burning down most of the things the USA actually needs to move forward, internally and externally, at incalculable cost for the USA and the rest of the world.

The main beneficiary of all this craziness won't even be Russia but China, who are getting a good few decades worth of growth, power, influence, might handed to them on a plate by Trump.

We should hitch our wagon to China . I mean given the US is run by a morally bankrupt corrupt administration we shouldn’t get too moral now.

For all its faults, the US is not exterminating Uighurs. However it is withdrawing childhood vaccination, so the death toll should be comparable...

Time for some meaningful subsidies to big pharma to build vaccines plants and R&D centres here.

More broadly it’s worth government scouting around to see if it can attract any newly footloose “international woke capital”. Even if 95% of the tech industry is happily jumping into bed with Trump and Musk, that 5% is a decent number.

Stereodog said:

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

If Foxy were Sandpit he'd flounce after that abuse.

But centrist dads are made of sterner stuff.

Centrist dad has to be my least favourite slang term ever. It's meaningless by itself and the only people who understand the joke are people who live in the same echo chamber as those they are sniggering at. It's like Communists calling other socialists Trotskyites.

TimS said:

Gardenwalker said:

Apart from Trump’s despicable suggestion that Ukraine started the war, I’m not sure PB has fully absorbed the horror of the US’s attempt to impose a economic treaty on Ukraine, with terms worse than those imposed at Versailles on Germany.

That document will go down in infamy, I can’t think of anything analogous in modern times.

“Give me Greenland or I’ll impose tariffs”?

Gardenwalker said:

Apart from Trump’s despicable suggestion that Ukraine started the war, I’m not sure PB has fully absorbed the horror of the US’s attempt to impose a economic treaty on Ukraine, with terms worse than those imposed at Versailles on Germany.

That document will go down in infamy, I can’t think of anything analogous in modern times.

Gardenwalker said:

TimS said:

viewcode said:

nico67 said:

glw said:

MattW said:

I'm pretty much with Rochdale on this. Even without the malevolence, Trump is headed right back to a series of golden ages that mainly exist in his head, such as to the oil era economically via "Drill Baby Drill", and cannot be recreated now.

But his grass roots supporters won't get off the helter-skelter until they crash because they have fallen for the stuff themselves. I mark the oligarch supporters down as operating in their self-interest with a few variations.

In the process he is burning down most of the things the USA actually needs to move forward, internally and externally, at incalculable cost for the USA and the rest of the world.

The main beneficiary of all this craziness won't even be Russia but China, who are getting a good few decades worth of growth, power, influence, might handed to them on a plate by Trump.

We should hitch our wagon to China . I mean given the US is run by a morally bankrupt corrupt administration we shouldn’t get too moral now.

For all its faults, the US is not exterminating Uighurs. However it is withdrawing childhood vaccination, so the death toll should be comparable...

Time for some meaningful subsidies to big pharma to build vaccines plants and R&D centres here.

More broadly it’s worth government scouting around to see if it can attract any newly footloose “international woke capital”. Even if 95% of the tech industry is happily jumping into bed with Trump and Musk, that 5% is a decent number.

I think many, many Americans will be considering options before too long.

Nigelb said:

Great railway thread, which explains quite a bit.

Wow. This looks like absolutely amazing work analyzing the British and German railways by the FT. > "German trains are less punctual than Britain’s ‘broken’ railways"
https://x.com/thomasforth/status/1892178693688017016

That overall judgment is correct, but:
Line up your British operators as the FT have done and all the North British ones (except Merseyrail and Scotrail, because separated and/or devolved) are as bad or much worse than German railways. And the top performers are overwhelmingly in the South.

I know almost for certain that this delusion penetrated deeply within DfT and led to substantial cancellations of Northern investment. It was easy for people in London to look at averages pushed up by the hugely upgraded and brand new lines into London, sit back, and relax...

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

If Foxy were Sandpit he'd flounce after that abuse.

But centrist dads are made of sterner stuff.

Stereodog said:

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

If Foxy were Sandpit he'd flounce after that abuse.

But centrist dads are made of sterner stuff.

Centrist dad has to be my least favourite slang term ever. It's meaningless by itself and the only people who understand the joke are people who live in the same echo chamber as those they are sniggering at. It's like Communists calling other socialists Trotskyites.

Theuniondivvie said:

DavidL said:

I for one will be seriously disappointed if @Sandpit has left the site. I generally find him interesting and well informed, particularly about aviation and other technical matters. Like others, I have been perplexed by his position on Trump, particularly in relation to Ukraine where he has very close interests.

I think it entirely reasonable to challenge him on this apparent inconsistency but I found the nature of some of the comments directed at him excessively personal and aggressive. We should remember that this is a chat room. None of us are actually responsible for US foreign policy (whatever it might be in any given hour), UK government policy or even for the psychopath Putin. I think that the discussion goes better when people make their points firmly and clearly but not personally.

But then, I am a boring old fart at heart.

Aka right of centrist dad?

rcs1000 said:

TOPPING said:

Good evening I see that PB is on the verge of declaring war on the US.

I suppose it's the last vestige of British exceptionalism that so many people on here and beyond find comfort in.

Edit: and I see we plan to enlist Iceland and the Faroe Islands in a military pact.

The Faroe Islands are not our friend. You would do well to remember that.

Dura_Ace said:

Stereodog said:

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

If Foxy were Sandpit he'd flounce after that abuse.

But centrist dads are made of sterner stuff.

Centrist dad has to be my least favourite slang term ever. It's meaningless by itself and the only people who understand the joke are people who live in the same echo chamber as those they are sniggering at. It's like Communists calling other socialists Trotskyites.

It's proven quite a durable and evocative pejorative so there must be something in it. It fairly accurately bespeaks a certain stripe of hideously white middle class Englishman who never strays too far from the Monty Python - Pratchett - Blackadder axis of cultural references and listens to fucking podcasts.

numbertwelve said:

algarkirk said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1892175665212145977

NEW: Boris Johnson says Donald Trump’s comments overnight are wrong, calls for Russian assets to be seized to arm Ukraine

“Of course Ukraine didn’t start the war. You might as well say that America attacked Japan at Pearl Harbor.

Of course a country undergoing a violent invasion should not be staging elections. There was no general election in the UK from 1935 to 1945.

Of course Zelenskyy’s ratings are not 4%. They are actually about the same as Trump’s.

Trump’s statements are not intended to be historically accurate but to shock Europeans into action.

In particular the US can see $300bn of frozen Russian assets - mainly in Belgium. That is cash that could and should be used to pay Ukraine and compensate the US for its support.

Why is Europe preventing the unfreezing of Putin’s cash?

The US believes Belgium, France and other countries are blocking. It’s absurd. We need to get serious and fast.”

Epic levels of cope from a man who cannot bear to admit he was wrong.

Johnson, for all his faults, was 100% in supporting Ukraine and is consistent today

I don't follow Farage or Reform minute by minute, but do I get the impression that they are being a bit quiet so far about the Trump/Putin/Ukraine events and comments over the last 24 hours or so?

Reform have quite a lot to lose; I can't see how they can credibly not take sides over some tricky things at the moment.

Starmer and Labour have quite a lot to gain, too. And I say that as someone who has been very critical of them.

At the moment it looks bleak for Labour as they’re staring down the barrel of more tax rises and greater defence spending. But if they’re able to land the big stuff, and by that I mean a sensible reshaping of European relations and a controlled approach to immigration, I am starting to wonder if Reform’s shtick will become very old hat fairly quickly. Particularly if the general public blames the US for all this.

That’s not to say they have an easy ride, or that I necessarily expect them to deliver in a competent way, but the path forward is there for them.

Dura_Ace said:

Stereodog said:

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

If Foxy were Sandpit he'd flounce after that abuse.

But centrist dads are made of sterner stuff.

Centrist dad has to be my least favourite slang term ever. It's meaningless by itself and the only people who understand the joke are people who live in the same echo chamber as those they are sniggering at. It's like Communists calling other socialists Trotskyites.

It's proven quite a durable and evocative pejorative so there must be something in it. It fairly accurately bespeaks a certain stripe of hideously white middle class Englishman who never strays too far from the Monty Python - Pratchett - Blackadder axis of cultural references and listens to fucking podcasts.

Dura_Ace said:

eek said:

algarkirk said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

https://x.com/alexwickham/status/1892175665212145977

NEW: Boris Johnson says Donald Trump’s comments overnight are wrong, calls for Russian assets to be seized to arm Ukraine

“Of course Ukraine didn’t start the war. You might as well say that America attacked Japan at Pearl Harbor.

Of course a country undergoing a violent invasion should not be staging elections. There was no general election in the UK from 1935 to 1945.

Of course Zelenskyy’s ratings are not 4%. They are actually about the same as Trump’s.

Trump’s statements are not intended to be historically accurate but to shock Europeans into action.

In particular the US can see $300bn of frozen Russian assets - mainly in Belgium. That is cash that could and should be used to pay Ukraine and compensate the US for its support.

Why is Europe preventing the unfreezing of Putin’s cash?

The US believes Belgium, France and other countries are blocking. It’s absurd. We need to get serious and fast.”

Epic levels of cope from a man who cannot bear to admit he was wrong.

Johnson, for all his faults, was 100% in supporting Ukraine and is consistent today

I don't follow Farage or Reform minute by minute, but do I get the impression that they are being a bit quiet so far about the Trump/Putin/Ukraine events and comments over the last 24 hours or so?

Reform have quite a lot to lose; I can't see how they can credibly not take sides over some tricky things at the moment.

Reform have taken an isolationist view on how to deal with the Ukraine, which is fine until Russia decides to take over Poland or similar at which point we would probably have preferred to have done something sooner

The idea that they are going to roll across all of Ukraine

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

kinabalu said:

Gardenwalker said:

TimS said:

viewcode said:

nico67 said:

glw said:

MattW said:

I'm pretty much with Rochdale on this. Even without the malevolence, Trump is headed right back to a series of golden ages that mainly exist in his head, such as to the oil era economically via "Drill Baby Drill", and cannot be recreated now.

But his grass roots supporters won't get off the helter-skelter until they crash because they have fallen for the stuff themselves. I mark the oligarch supporters down as operating in their self-interest with a few variations.

In the process he is burning down most of the things the USA actually needs to move forward, internally and externally, at incalculable cost for the USA and the rest of the world.

The main beneficiary of all this craziness won't even be Russia but China, who are getting a good few decades worth of growth, power, influence, might handed to them on a plate by Trump.

We should hitch our wagon to China . I mean given the US is run by a morally bankrupt corrupt administration we shouldn’t get too moral now.

For all its faults, the US is not exterminating Uighurs. However it is withdrawing childhood vaccination, so the death toll should be comparable...

Time for some meaningful subsidies to big pharma to build vaccines plants and R&D centres here.

More broadly it’s worth government scouting around to see if it can attract any newly footloose “international woke capital”. Even if 95% of the tech industry is happily jumping into bed with Trump and Musk, that 5% is a decent number.

I think many, many Americans will be considering options before too long.

I hope so. That's the ultimate backstop protection against the evil and idiocy of Trump. America itself. America and Americans. Ok so they shat the bed on Nov 5th but there's no reason for that to define them forever. They can wake up, wise up, and detox.

Eabhal said:

Dura_Ace said:

Stereodog said:

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

If Foxy were Sandpit he'd flounce after that abuse.

But centrist dads are made of sterner stuff.

Centrist dad has to be my least favourite slang term ever. It's meaningless by itself and the only people who understand the joke are people who live in the same echo chamber as those they are sniggering at. It's like Communists calling other socialists Trotskyites.

It's proven quite a durable and evocative pejorative so there must be something in it. It fairly accurately bespeaks a certain stripe of hideously white middle class Englishman who never strays too far from the Monty Python - Pratchett - Blackadder axis of cultural references and listens to fucking podcasts.

Oh it's definitely a thing. Add a bit of cycling, IPAs, flat whites. A guilty love of old Top Gear.

The problem is that the Millennial centrist dad is about to become the most important part of the electorate.

Stereodog said:

Eabhal said:

Leon said:

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Eabhal said:

Selebian said:

Eabhal said:

Sandpit left because he didn't like getting called out for his absurd position on Trump and Ukraine, not his support for Trump per se. It's weird because on other issues like energy, we come from entire different angles but can usually find a pragmatic accord on the virtues of battery storage or something.

bigjohnowls has similarly bonkers positions on Ukraine/Gaza, gets called out on it in vitriolic terms, but hasn't flounced.

Shame though. He has an apparent suspension of sense on Trump re Ukraine, but interesting on many other issues. Hopefully will return soon.

It's also worth having people like bjo and Sandpit on PB, because their bizarre positions are held by large chunks of the electorate. In this case, anti-Israel pro-Putin socialists, and anti-Putin pro-Trump Reform voters

It’s nice that PB has a range of views. However, I don’t think it’s nice having people posting disinformation. Sandpit posts endless MAGA propaganda and then tried to claim he’s just a neutral observer.

Yes, he seemed to be immune to factchecking and would repeat the same misinformation repeatedly, even after being corrected. That is not putting a different opinion, it is pure propaganda.

@Sandpit has very close Ukrainian family, and actually visited Ukraine during the war

You’re a semi retired provincial quack from “Leicester”. What on earth makes you think your opinion is more interesting or useful than his, on Ukraine?

This is the essence of the pb midwit dad. Pontificating from some tedious little place in England with their numbingly predictable petit bourgeois opinions delivered like great and sagacious insights

If Foxy were Sandpit he'd flounce after that abuse.

But centrist dads are made of sterner stuff.

Centrist dad has to be my least favourite slang term ever. It's meaningless by itself and the only people who understand the joke are people who live in the same echo chamber as those they are sniggering at. It's like Communists calling other socialists Trotskyites.

logical_song said:

kinabalu said:

Gardenwalker said:

TimS said:

viewcode said:

nico67 said:

glw said:

MattW said:

I'm pretty much with Rochdale on this. Even without the malevolence, Trump is headed right back to a series of golden ages that mainly exist in his head, such as to the oil era economically via "Drill Baby Drill", and cannot be recreated now.

But his grass roots supporters won't get off the helter-skelter until they crash because they have fallen for the stuff themselves. I mark the oligarch supporters down as operating in their self-interest with a few variations.

In the process he is burning down most of the things the USA actually needs to move forward, internally and externally, at incalculable cost for the USA and the rest of the world.

The main beneficiary of all this craziness won't even be Russia but China, who are getting a good few decades worth of growth, power, influence, might handed to them on a plate by Trump.

We should hitch our wagon to China . I mean given the US is run by a morally bankrupt corrupt administration we shouldn’t get too moral now.

For all its faults, the US is not exterminating Uighurs. However it is withdrawing childhood vaccination, so the death toll should be comparable...

Time for some meaningful subsidies to big pharma to build vaccines plants and R&D centres here.

More broadly it’s worth government scouting around to see if it can attract any newly footloose “international woke capital”. Even if 95% of the tech industry is happily jumping into bed with Trump and Musk, that 5% is a decent number.

I think many, many Americans will be considering options before too long.

I hope so. That's the ultimate backstop protection against the evil and idiocy of Trump. America itself. America and Americans. Ok so they shat the bed on Nov 5th but there's no reason for that to define them forever. They can wake up, wise up, and detox.

Have you seen the idea that Canada should join the EU?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp1MHKYX0_4

Scott_xP said:

MattW said:

Good morning everyone.

Sorry to see @Sandpit take a break. A different view, even though I don't agree on that many things with him these days.

For a diversion. Yesterday we were talking about the Bismarck wreck having lost it's gun turrets.

Gun turrets were also involved in the wreck of HMS Victoria, a battlecruiser which sank off the coast of Lebanon in 1893 - and is one of a very few wrecks which is stuck vertically in the seabed (mud), with the stern poking up 100 ft or more. It had an enormous turret that took it straight down, after a collision caused by Admiral Tryon, trying too hard. He went down with the ship and ~350 others. It had a ram bow which helped it keep together.

It reportedly still has one of Nelson's swords on board, but is in about 400ft of water.

My image quota.

Short video about finding it in 2004:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKVymgGyYKo

Also FPT

No_Offence_Alan said:

PoodleInASlipstream said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Heavy old beasts but you wonder how much vertical movement there was in really rough seas,

Not much. It takes a great deal of force to move a 1000 ton turret vertically, although it did sometimes happen there was enough movement to knock the turret off its bearings. The German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau both had their forward turrets disabled in heavy seas multiple times, although their turrets were fairly light as they only mounted 11-inch guns compared to the 14/15/16-inch on most battleships.

Fun fact: the bearings which allow the Jodrell Bank radio telescope to rotate vertically came from battleship gun turrets.

That appears to be a well known story, but begs an obvious question

The start of this discussion was the observation that gun turrets rely on gravity to keep them in place. The bearings explicitly and exclusively support vertical loads.

The Jodrell Bank trunnion bearings are horizontal, requiring an entirely different design...