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Could the Tories have their sixth leader in six years? – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295

    Grim

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/birmingham-hospital-stabbing-breaking-ae-31016296

    A Birmingham hospital was put on 'lockdown' after a stabbing on a city street.

    A witness claimed that a group "ambushed" the A&E department at Heartlands Hospital, while an ambulance was also "raided with a patient inside."

    Birmingham sounds nice
  • eekeek Posts: 29,534

    Yes, Sir Keir could become the Saviour of the Nation and destroy Reform overnight: 'Sorry Nigel. I had to raise defence spending to 20% because your mate Trump sold us out to Putin.' Sir Keir needs to go in for the kill.
    sold us out to your other mate Putin...

    Remember Farage's argument is that the west provoked Russia into invading the Ukraine...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,477
    glw said:

    How the hell did someone with so little political sense or ability ever become PM? It's honestly amazing how Starmer can't put the ball in the net of an open goal.
    I don't really like arbitrary expenditure targets. We know that expenditure doesn't equal output, and that it can, as it does now, all go on epaulettes, sensitivity training, abortive weapons projects, and bunging cash at Mauritius.

    We need to decide what our military capability needs to be in the 21st century to counter all threats to the UK, and THEN and ONLY THEN think about projecting force to aid UK interests and assist allies, work backwards from there.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,813
    On topic and why Badenoch has no idea.

    Her current campaign....



  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,051
    Leon said:

    Birmingham sounds nice
    It does if you say it in a soft and low voice. Don’t gabble it. Burghmenghum. Sultry, smooth.

    Not like Frankfurt - that can never sound nice.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    Whenever I read news from Birmingham or see quirky videos, or hear Brummy gossip or funny chitchat, I always think “gosh, Birmingham sounds nice, I’d like to live there one day”

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,113

    We should learn from the Ukrainians and spend any new ones on drones, lots of drones!
    No.

    We should invest in the capability to design drones, and build loads of them. Not necessarily to have tens of thousands going dusty in storage.

    But also, invest in the countermeasures. This is somewhere, anecdotally, we are doing somewhat better.

    The problem with building drones nowadays is that they'll be rapidly (in the order of months...) be outdated as the battle between drone and countermeasure progresses. Which is why the Ukrainian battlefield is increasingly being raped with fibre-optic cables.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,370

    In the age of Trump and Putin gradualist civil service thinking is just not on. It will be the death of Europe. We need to DOUBLE defence spending. The threat is existential.
    I think the word “existential” gets overused. Ukraine alone has held back Russia militarily. Russia is not going to sweep across Europe. I don’t believe Russia threatens the British Isles with invasion.

    But we should do more to support Ukraine and our NATO allies other than the US. And we should recognise the threat Russia poses, including in terms of their attempts to sow discord and magnify disinformation. And we should stand up to defend the post-1945 world order and oppose wars of aggression, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,840
    pigeon said:

    Noone wants to go to the savage lands. They've all seen The Wicker Man.
    “They were hard lands. Where men were hard. And sheep were nervous.”
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,083

    We should learn from the Ukrainians and spend any new ones on drones, lots of drones!
    That would be borgerline reckless.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    Also, Birmingham just gets NICER

    Whenever you think “oh it’s reached peak cuteness” or “enough of the funny stabbing vids lolz” or “how can a place be THAT perfect with so many great mosques and fly tipping experts” then Birmingham does something even more fabulous

    It’s absurd how one place can be so attractive
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,370
    pigeon said:

    But the voters.

    Unless Trump brings enough economic pressure to bear to frighten him into compliance, he won't do it. There are no votes in defence and, as I said the other day, there won't be until the Russians have reached the Rhine and Britain and France have no cards to play save to threaten nuclear war. By which point it'll be a little late.
    Russia is not going to reach the Rhine through conventional military force.

    But that’s not to say that we shouldn’t look at our defence spending. I note several people here strongly support increased defence spending, so maybe there are votes in it.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,004
    edited February 16
    geoffw said:

    Well yes, but I was interested solely in the calculation - what is the square of 5'10" ?

    34 sq ft, 4 sq in
    geoffw said:

    OK, now do the whole bmi ...
    (Carnix's squaring was neater)

    OK 34 sq ft 4 sq in / 177lbs = 27 after suitable adjustment
  • Leon said:

    Also, Birmingham just gets NICER

    Whenever you think “oh it’s reached peak cuteness” or “enough of the funny stabbing vids lolz” or “how can a place be THAT perfect with so many great mosques and fly tipping experts” then Birmingham does something even more fabulous

    It’s absurd how one place can be so attractive

    Yeah, Birmingham is almost as nice as London on the nice stabbing metric.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,520
    edited February 16

    Grim

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/birmingham-hospital-stabbing-breaking-ae-31016296

    A Birmingham hospital was put on 'lockdown' after a stabbing on a city street.

    A witness claimed that a group "ambushed" the A&E department at Heartlands Hospital, while an ambulance was also "raided with a patient inside."

    If you're trying to ape Elon Musk's twitter style (which sadly you are) a slightly better option would have been not "Grim" but "Concerning."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,113

    I think the word “existential” gets overused. Ukraine alone has held back Russia militarily. Russia is not going to sweep across Europe. I don’t believe Russia threatens the British Isles with invasion.

    (Snip).
    Russia does not threaten us with invasion. But with political interference? Yes, they could. It would not take much for a party to turn anti-war / pro--Russia, and to sell that to the public. Some on here are already more than halfway there....
  • No.

    We should invest in the capability to design drones, and build loads of them. Not necessarily to have tens of thousands going dusty in storage.

    But also, invest in the countermeasures. This is somewhere, anecdotally, we are doing somewhat better.

    The problem with building drones nowadays is that they'll be rapidly (in the order of months...) be outdated as the battle between drone and countermeasure progresses. Which is why the Ukrainian battlefield is increasingly being raped with fibre-optic cables.
    We shouldn't be putting them in storage, we should be sending them to the frontlines.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,840

    No.

    We should invest in the capability to design drones, and build loads of them. Not necessarily to have tens of thousands going dusty in storage.

    But also, invest in the countermeasures. This is somewhere, anecdotally, we are doing somewhat better.

    The problem with building drones nowadays is that they'll be rapidly (in the order of months...) be outdated as the battle between drone and countermeasure progresses. Which is why the Ukrainian battlefield is increasingly being raped with fibre-optic cables.
    Need to think bigger.

    1-2 Billion Euro a year gets you everything going on at Boca Chica.

    In turn that gives you staring surveillance of the whole planet. Plus high bandwidth comms. Plus the ability to Fed Ex 100 tons to any point on the planet. At Mach 27.

    No wonder the Chinese want one.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,370

    Yeah, Birmingham is almost as nice as London on the nice stabbing metric.
    The UK has fewer homicides by stabbing than the vast majority of countries.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158
    geoffw said:

    OK, now do the whole bmi ...
    (Carnix's squaring was neater)

    Why is BMI based on a square of height anyway?

    Mass proportional to volume which is length cubed. BMI should be calculated based on height cubed.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,692
    edited February 16

    Yeah, Birmingham is almost as nice as London on the nice stabbing metric.
    Let’s keep it in perspective though.

    UK knife homicides in 2022/3: 244
    USA knife homicides in 2022/3: 1,562

    So the USA, where guns are the overwhelming cause of violent death (48,204 in 2023!) manages to have a higher rate of fatal stabbings per capita than the UK.

    Remember that next time Musk or some random moans on about Britain’s knife crime epidemic.
  • TimS said:

    I’m now a weird mix of kilos and feet/inches. So I have a tricky choice when doing the BMI.
    My height 5'8 is near enough to the square root of 3 in metres that I just divide my weight in kilos by 3.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,222
    Wifey is three for three on the BAFTAs she voted for....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,840
    Leon said:

    Birmingham sounds nice
    Excellent news. Sounds like we have the first recruits for the 124th West Midlands Mine Clearing Regiment.

    Motto : oritur ad astra et per agros spargimus

    All they’ll need is a fruit knife each, and off to Ukraine.

    Service Guarantees Citizenship!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,051

    We shouldn't be putting them in storage, we should be sending them to the frontlines.
    True - no better testing ground for weapons than an actual war. Just keep trialing new things over and over again against our most likely enemy whilst we can.

    I’m guessing military boffins have learnt infinitely more about their own country’s weapons and other countries’ weapons in the Ukraine war than in decades of testing and trials. Myths busted, surprising upsides, are helicopters obsolete in war, have sea drones made warships too vulnerable, would tea making facilities make Russian tanks a more pleasant place to spend your last days?
  • The UK has fewer homicides by stabbing than the vast majority of countries.
    I don't disagree with that, but being serious its still more than I'd like to see.

    My comment you responded to wasn't serious though, it was tongue very firmly in cheek mocking how the person I was responding to is always saying how great London is while chastising Birmingham for stabbings as if there's never any knife crime in his beloved London.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,477
    edited February 16
    TimS said:

    The value for money choice would be to spend an additional say 0.5% of our gdp financially supporting countries close to Russia that have cheaper manufacturing so that they can spend 10% of their GDP. And to allow Poland to go nuclear.

    If any country deserves to have nuclear weapons given its geopolitical situation and history it’s Poland.

    But in the meantime the more we can all suppress Russian GDP by not buying anything from them and making life difficult for anyone who does (including the USA it seems), the more we remove the financial driver for 90% of our defence needs in Europe.
    Do you understand that someone reading this 'might' think that you are arguing, perhaps by habit, against the UK's national interest?

    1. You support a legal situation that makes manufacturing in the UK cost prohibitive, and that threatens the production of virgin steel, essential for the armaments industry, which is a key industry for us and (up until now) a success story.

    2. You suggest that rather than support this vital industry and its development in this country, we give half a percent of our GDP directly to countries 'that have cheaper manufacturing' - I mean why the fuck do you think they have cheap manufacturing in the first place? This actively accelerates our economical decline, and means that if somehow Russia does overrun Europe (which is presumably what you purport to be the danger, we lose those facilities altogether.

    3. In the meantime, we antagonise everyone who buys stuff from Russia (which is basically everyone except continental Europe), but we do nothing to restart our own hydrocarbon industry, which would be the only *actual* thing that would make us safe from Russian energy blackmail.

    I find your suggestions and thought process quite disturbing.

  • Why is BMI based on a square of height anyway?

    Mass proportional to volume which is length cubed. BMI should be calculated based on height cubed.
    Presumably because we aren't as deep as we are tall, so our volume is not our height cubed. So squared works as a reasonable approximation, though its a flawed measure anyway.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,951

    Russia is not going to reach the Rhine through conventional military force.

    But that’s not to say that we shouldn’t look at our defence spending. I note several people here strongly support increased defence spending, so maybe there are votes in it.
    Putin doesn't want go to the Rhine. He wants to absorb the Baltics, and subvert most of E Europe including Poland and poss the Scandis. He's an old man in a hurry with a war economy facing a demogrsphic cliff edge. With the US out of the picture very serious stuff could very likely happen.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    TimS said:

    Let’s keep it in perspective though.

    UK knife homicides in 2022/3: 244
    USA knife homicides in 2022/3: 1,562

    So the USA, where guns are the overwhelming cause of violent death (48,204 in 2023!) manages to have a higher rate of fatal stabbings per capita than the UK.

    Remember that next time Musk or some random moans on about Britain’s knife crime epidemic.
    Why compare us to a much larger, even more unequal, famously violent country on a different continent? Why not try, say, Poland?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,083

    Russia is not going to reach the Rhine through conventional military force.

    But that’s not to say that we shouldn’t look at our defence spending. I note several people here strongly support increased defence spending, so maybe there are votes in it.
    The problem is, there are always votes in raising spending, but precious few in raising taxes.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,370
    From Wikipedia:

    The BMI is expressed in kg/m2, resulting from mass in kilograms and height in metres. If pounds and inches are used, a conversion factor of 703 (kg/m2)/(lb/in2) is applied. (If pounds and feet are used, a conversion factor of 4.88 is used.)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,840

    I don't disagree with that, but being serious its still more than I'd like to see.

    My comment you responded to wasn't serious though, it was tongue very firmly in cheek mocking how the person I was responding to is always saying how great London is while chastising Birmingham for stabbings as if there's never any knife crime in his beloved London.
    It’s worry. If Birmingham eclipses London in stabbings, it’s like Taiwan losing chip production.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    Russia is not going to reach the Rhine through conventional military force.

    But that’s not to say that we shouldn’t look at our defence spending. I note several people here strongly support increased defence spending, so maybe there are votes in it.
    I exaggerated, but you can see Putin going for the Baltic States next and getting away with it. The excuse will most likely be absorbing Russian sympathising minorities, or demanding a land bridge to Kaliningrad.

    People on here are not representative. Most folk care about their immediate living circumstances (bank balances, investments, housing) first, followed by any public services that they use, plus maybe immigration, and the constitutional argument in Scotland and NI. Everything else is niche.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,222
    The US has been measles free (no cases for 12 months) in the past...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,222
    Wifey now 4 for 4...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,370

    Why is BMI based on a square of height anyway?

    Mass proportional to volume which is length cubed. BMI should be calculated based on height cubed.
    Using the cube is called the corpulence index and can be argued to be better. Wikipedia suggests an exponent of 2.5 has been shown to be best.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    ydoethur said:

    The problem is, there are always votes in raising spending, but precious few in raising taxes.
    Or cutting spending elsewhere to compensate.

    The man needs to do the right thing but he's clearly also worried that Labour will go the way of the Tories at the next election if he does. No prizes for guessing what takes priority.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,477
    ydoethur said:

    The problem is, there are always votes in raising spending, but precious few in raising taxes.
    I am inclined to think we *may* need to spend a bit more to get A LOT more, but just keep the current system and bung a massive chunk more money at the MOD? Piss off. Tell us precisely what you want the money for.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    Putin doesn't want go to the Rhine. He wants to absorb the Baltics, and subvert most of E Europe including Poland and poss the Scandis. He's an old man in a hurry with a war economy facing a demogrsphic cliff edge. With the US out of the picture very serious stuff could very likely happen.
    He wont succeed with Poland or the Scandinavian countries, but the Baltics are so small he could easily be tempted to conquer them and dare us to do something about it. The man is obviously trying to reassemble the Soviet Union, either by annexation or the establishment of secure client regimes.
  • Putin doesn't want go to the Rhine. He wants to absorb the Baltics, and subvert most of E Europe including Poland and poss the Scandis. He's an old man in a hurry with a war economy facing a demogrsphic cliff edge. With the US out of the picture very serious stuff could very likely happen.
    Are there any examples of a state launching a war of territorial expansion, winning and then saying "splendid, that's enough for us, thanks"?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,222
    Wifey down to 5 of 6 (Guy Pearce was robbed, she says!)
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    Using the cube is called the corpulence index and can be argued to be better. Wikipedia suggests an exponent of 2.5 has been shown to be best.
    No amount of tweaking BMI allows one to factor in anything indicative of body composition. The height to waist size ratio is a better ready reckoner.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534
    World's 'first openly gay imam' shot dead in South Africa

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c05l33j7rq7o
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    Reading these reports from Birmingham…. Jesus fucks

    Fuck Putin, fuck Ukraine, fuck the EU, let them fight it out. We should just upgrade our nukes and subs, buy a trillion drones, defend our island, and focus on the very very broken cities of our own nation. They’ve already been Putin’d. They need help

    Enough
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090
    boulay said:

    I’m not sure the UK should necessarily be in the business of providing a huge land army. We should stick to high quality specialist troops but build up the navy and air force (but using large quantity drones instead of hugely expensive fighter jets as their role).

    We should have a huge sub expansion and provide a large part of the naval deterrent for Europe. We can send Marines to bolster the Scandi countries who can focus on specialist armies for the arctic borders and seas.

    France and Spain and Portugal can be the same, mainly Naval with air and infantry as they are suitably far away.

    Germany, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria can focus on land armies, supplemented by British, French etc regiments.

    Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Luxembourg are rich countries but small so can focus on air power.

    Italy, Greece and the balkans can cover the Med with Navy and air to cover the Black Sea exit to the Med and beyond.

    Ireland can sit there doing nothing and nodding disapprovingly at the UK for being so uncivilised and militaristic.

    I know this is pretty bonkers in a way but all European countries need to contribute but it makes sense that they contribute in ways where their geography or populations are best employed.

    And Europe as a whole should chip in towards the British and French Nuclear deterrent if they are happy to shelter under it now.
    It isn't a huge land army, though.

    It's a BEF. Of the most basic kind.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,051

    Are there any examples of a state launching a war of territorial expansion, winning and then saying "splendid, that's enough for us, thanks"?
    Arguably the US after the Mexican War. They got huge swathes of territory in the west and south and stopped. They never went further to take México (always wondered how amazing México would be if it had been either a British colony or taken over by the US early on). They never decided to go North after that or overseas so maybe an example.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534
    pigeon said:

    Or cutting spending elsewhere to compensate.

    The man needs to do the right thing but he's clearly also worried that Labour will go the way of the Tories at the next election if he does. No prizes for guessing what takes priority.
    The Greens aren't polling as high as Reform but nonetheless are now up to about 9% on average
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    We should learn from the Ukrainians and spend any new ones on drones, lots of drones!
    Now you've said that it's only a matter of time before Sunil turns up, to say: he will make an excellent drone.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295

    Are there any examples of a state launching a war of territorial expansion, winning and then saying "splendid, that's enough for us, thanks"?

    Prussia after the Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871) - After defeating France, Prussia annexed Alsace-Lorraine but declined to push for more French territory, focusing instead on using the victory to unify Germany. Bismarck specifically argued against taking more French land, believing it would only create a permanent enemy.

    Israel after the 1967 Six-Day War - While Israel captured significant territory (Sinai, Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights), it quickly offered to return most conquered areas in exchange for peace treaties. Israel ultimately did return the Sinai to Egypt after the 1979 peace treaty.
  • A new Mark Felton which has relevance:

    The Navy With More Admirals Than Warships

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po9duwvipB0
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534
    pigeon said:

    But the voters.

    Unless Trump brings enough economic pressure to bear to frighten him into compliance, he won't do it. There are no votes in defence and, as I said the other day, there won't be until the Russians have reached the Rhine and Britain and France have no cards to play save to threaten nuclear war. By which point it'll be a little late.
    All the main parties support increased defence spending though, including Reform, as does Merz, likely next German Chancellor
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,083

    Now you've said that it's only a matter of time before Sunil turns up, to say: he will make an excellent drone.
    I think that's extrapolated from insufficient Data.
  • boulay said:

    Arguably the US after the Mexican War. They got huge swathes of territory in the west and south and stopped. They never went further to take México (always wondered how amazing México would be if it had been either a British colony or taken over by the US early on). They never decided to go North after that or overseas so maybe an example.
    Though the Mexican War arguably led to the US Civil War so they had bigger issues on their plate.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,158
    edited February 16

    Presumably because we aren't as deep as we are tall, so our volume is not our height cubed. So squared works as a reasonable approximation, though its a flawed measure anyway.
    No, the cubed rule applies to any three-dimensional object, no matter what the relative height, width and length. The fact that our volume is not our height cubed is irrelevant.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,482
    edited February 16
    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting. Only Tusk from the post-expansion EU.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090

    I am inclined to think we *may* need to spend a bit more to get A LOT more, but just keep the current system and bung a massive chunk more money at the MOD? Piss off. Tell us precisely what you want the money for.
    Deterring your friends from attacking us.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,051

    Though the Mexican War arguably led to the US Civil War so they had bigger issues on their plate.
    To an extent but 15 years gap where they didn’t know there was going to be a civil war where they could have pushed on theoretically - luckily, this being PB, there will be an expert lurker on the Mexican war to explain why the US couldn’t/didn’t push on due to wheat prices in the Russian Empire meaning that the Mexican army with their cornflour tacos were better fed than their American bread eating enemies or something.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,735

    A new Mark Felton which has relevance:

    The Navy With More Admirals Than Warships

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po9duwvipB0

    No reason why it shouldn’t. A organisation of 35,000 with complex cutting edge procurement going on does need senior managers. Well under 100 above 1* in the navy I think.
  • Leon said:

    Whenever I read news from Birmingham or see quirky videos, or hear Brummy gossip or funny chitchat, I always think “gosh, Birmingham sounds nice, I’d like to live there one day”

    Perhaps there are intrepid flint knappers from other countries who include Birmingham on their visitors to alternative places.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,083
    boulay said:

    Arguably the US after the Mexican War. They got huge swathes of territory in the west and south and stopped. They never went further to take México (always wondered how amazing México would be if it had been either a British colony or taken over by the US early on). They never decided to go North after that or overseas so maybe an example.
    Alaska, Guam, Puerto Rico, the Philippines...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,090
    Leon said:


    Prussia after the Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871) - After defeating France, Prussia annexed Alsace-Lorraine but declined to push for more French territory, focusing instead on using the victory to unify Germany. Bismarck specifically argued against taking more French land, believing it would only create a permanent enemy.

    Israel after the 1967 Six-Day War - While Israel captured significant territory (Sinai, Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights), it quickly offered to return most conquered areas in exchange for peace treaties. Israel ultimately did return the Sinai to Egypt after the 1979 peace treaty.
    Prussia taking Alsace-Lorraine alone was enough to create a permanent enemy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting:

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,003

    The UK has fewer homicides by stabbing than the vast majority of countries.
    That is comforting
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,331
    Leon said:

    Reading these reports from Birmingham…. Jesus fucks

    Fuck Putin, fuck Ukraine, fuck the EU, let them fight it out. We should just upgrade our nukes and subs, buy a trillion drones, defend our island, and focus on the very very broken cities of our own nation. They’ve already been Putin’d. They need help

    Enough

    Yeah. Looking after our own and fuck the rest of the world... easy to see where you stand. It's the slogan if the far right in so many places. You and your kind have always be wrong.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,051
    ydoethur said:

    Alaska, Guam, Puerto Rico, the Philippines...
    Wasn’t Alaska a purchase? Can’t be arsed to look up the others so will take your word for it - I’m sure the Philippines was something less than territorial expansion though, maybe about cornering the nursing market but not empire building?
  • No, the cubed rule applies to any three-dimensional object.
    Only if all 3 dimensions increase proportionately.

    If 2 dimensions stay the same but the third increases, then the cubed rule does not apply.

    10 * 6 * 8 = 480

    If I double the 10 but hold the other 2 dimensions the same, then 20 * 6 * 8 = 960 which is the double of 480, it has scaled linearly not squared or cubed.

    Taller people aren't necessarily wider or deeper just by virtue of being taller.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,083
    Leon said:


    Prussia after the Franco-Prussian War (1870-1871) - After defeating France, Prussia annexed Alsace-Lorraine but declined to push for more French territory, focusing instead on using the victory to unify Germany. Bismarck specifically argued against taking more French land, believing it would only create a permanent enemy.

    Israel after the 1967 Six-Day War - While Israel captured significant territory (Sinai, Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights), it quickly offered to return most conquered areas in exchange for peace treaties. Israel ultimately did return the Sinai to Egypt after the 1979 peace treaty.
    Poland in 1921? Although it did start expanding again in 1938.

    Possibly Japan in 1905? It took Formosa and Korea and then waited 25 years before taking anywhere else.

    Brazil and Argentina in 1870 settling their claims over Paraguay, perhaps.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,951
    pigeon said:

    He wont succeed with Poland or the Scandinavian countries, but the Baltics are so small he could easily be tempted to conquer them and dare us to do something about it. The man is obviously trying to reassemble the Soviet Union, either by annexation or the establishment of secure client regimes.
    You may be right. But the Poles aren't taking any chances judging by uplift in defence spending, and neither are the Finns or the Swedes. Russia's actions in the Baltic are not friendly overtures.
  • boulay said:

    To an extent but 15 years gap where they didn’t know there was going to be a civil war where they could have pushed on theoretically - luckily, this being PB, there will be an expert lurker on the Mexican war to explain why the US couldn’t/didn’t push on due to wheat prices in the Russian Empire meaning that the Mexican army with their cornflour tacos were better fed than their American bread eating enemies or something.
    Looking at it technically the US did go back for more anyway, the Gadsden Purchase (which was done fiscally but with military threat).
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,735
    Leon said:

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
    Could have invited Gerry Adams mind, in case we need an insurgent campaign.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,083
    boulay said:

    Wasn’t Alaska a purchase? Can’t be arsed to look up the others so will take your word for it - I’m sure the Philippines was something less than territorial expansion though, maybe about cornering the nursing market but not empire building?
    Large parts of the USA were purchased. Louisiana, the Gadsden purchase, the Black Hills. That didn't make them any the less conquered given what happened next. Will agree Alaska was slightly different but they were still 'looking to expand northward.'
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,127
    edited February 16
    Leon said:

    Always liked Meades. Wondered where he went!

    He lives in the famous Unite d’Habitation?!

    I’ve been there. It’s quite powerful with traces of noom but I’m not sure I’d want to LIVE there. Like many Corbusier buildings the living spaces are small and oppressive

    Here’s a photo I took of the famous roof


    You wouldn’t want it defanged though. Serendipitously this popped up on my FB this afternoon, bit sad really.


  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,051
    edited February 16
    Leon said:

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
    He’s too busy tutting at the British for being British. Also busy worrying about the fact that they’ve lost Irish Joe from the Whitehouse to hide behind so trying to find someone in Ireland willing to admit to being related to the Trumps.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,951
    Leon said:

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
    Yep. The spud-propelling trebuchet is a formidable weapon. Take that, Vlad!
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,331
    pigeon said:

    He wont succeed with Poland or the Scandinavian countries, but the Baltics are so small he could easily be tempted to conquer them and dare us to do something about it. The man is obviously trying to reassemble the Soviet Union, either by annexation or the establishment of secure client regimes.
    The Baltic has now got strategic depth with Sweden now in NATO and with the extremely capable armies of Finland and Poland on each flank. If Russia makes a move then K'grad is liberated in a few days and St Petersburg and Murmansk under immediate direct attack. A Russian attack could be defeated pretty quickly. The consequences for Putin could quite literally be fatal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,083

    Yep. The spud-propelling trebuchet is a formidable weapon. Take that, Vlad!
    Full Metal Jackets!
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,232
    I note that a lot of the pb tories/fukkers are starting from the conclusion that there is no need for an EU force and working back from there to the conclusion that NATO minus US will be fine. This is understandable for reasons of, what Iggy Pop called, 'psychic self-defence'.

    However, NATO as constituted is a finely calibrated instrument for advancing American hegemony and supporting its strategic interests. It's CinC (ironically called SACEUR) is always an American 4* and never rotates among other nations. So NATO minus US would need a lot of reconfiguration and probably new treaties and would end up looking a lot like the EU's PESCO plus some mutual defence obligations. At that point the EU will quite forcefully position PESCO as the heir to NATO with some justification.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,840

    Though the Mexican War arguably led to the US Civil War so they had bigger issues on their plate.
    Quite a few people from the US saw the Mexican war as filibustering by the South, to expand slavery.

    "For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war, which resulted, as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,902

    S

    When my father was in hospital, recently, the food was a waste of time. Since we trying to get him to eat, bought in home cooked as much as possible.
    Likewise, my dad would have died from malnutrition a couple of decades back, when he was hospitalised.
    It’s not just that the food was crap: it was also that the staff didn’t really notice if older patients actually ate, or even drank anything.

    Our family visited him every day, with food.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    I note that a lot of the pb tories/fukkers are starting from the conclusion that there is no need for an EU force and working back from there to the conclusion that NATO minus US will be fine. This is understandable for reasons of, what Iggy Pop called, 'psychic self-defence'.

    However, NATO as constituted is a finely calibrated instrument for advancing American hegemony and supporting its strategic interests. It's CinC (ironically called SACEUR) is always an American 4* and never rotates among other nations. So NATO minus US would need a lot of reconfiguration and probably new treaties and would end up looking a lot like the EU's PESCO plus some mutual defence obligations. At that point the EU will quite forcefully position PESCO as the heir to NATO with some justification.

    Replacing a single point of failure in Washington with a single point of failure in Brussels would be the definition of insanity.

    It is well-established that Swiss Cheese defence structures work better than single points of failure and there is no reason that can not be the case with European defence either. So long as European nations actually invest, then coalitions of willing nation states is better than one single hegemon for ensuring security.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,051
    Cicero said:

    The Baltic has now got strategic depth with Sweden now in NATO and with the extremely capable armies of Finland and Poland on each flank. If Russia makes a move then K'grad is liberated in a few days and St Petersburg and Murmansk under immediate direct attack. A Russian attack could be defeated pretty quickly. The consequences for Putin could quite literally be fatal.
    Absolutely agree that between Finland, Sweden and Poland they would smash an attack I don’t think they would actually attack St P and Murmansk. We suffer the “decency” problem where we are trying to tell ordinary Russians we aren’t a threat and aren’t aggressors - European troops invading Russia, regardless of provocation, is counterproductive.

    On top of that the logistics yet alone the military reality of attacking St P an other places are very problematic - naval invasion? Land invasion? None are remotely easy or palatable.

    And if Kaliningrad is full of Russian nationals, is it really a liberation or an invasion? It’s a boil on Europe’s shoulder but what if they actually don’t want to be “liberated”?

    I would of course love it if it was no longer under Russian control btw.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,127
    edited February 16

    Yep. The spud-propelling trebuchet is a formidable weapon. Take that, Vlad!
    I’m sure Ireland has its share of overweight old blokes being bellicose from their La-Z-Boys. Otoh I imagine they probably have a higher proportion of their population familiar with automatic weapons and high explosives.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,735
    Dura_Ace said:

    I note that a lot of the pb tories/fukkers are starting from the conclusion that there is no need for an EU force and working back from there to the conclusion that NATO minus US will be fine. This is understandable for reasons of, what Iggy Pop called, 'psychic self-defence'.

    However, NATO as constituted is a finely calibrated instrument for advancing American hegemony and supporting its strategic interests. It's CinC (ironically called SACEUR) is always an American 4* and never rotates among other nations. So NATO minus US would need a lot of reconfiguration and probably new treaties and would end up looking a lot like the EU's PESCO plus some mutual defence obligations. At that point the EU will quite forcefully position PESCO as the heir to NATO with some justification.

    I agree with some of that, but NATO isn’t SHAPE, as you know. There are other infrastructures and conventions it is inefficient to reinvent and which aren’t purely American. You are better to build out from residual NATO than start again.
  • ydoethur said:

    I think that's extrapolated from insufficient Data.
    "I just LOVE scanning for life-forms!"
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,232
    biggles said:

    No reason why it shouldn’t. A organisation of 35,000 with complex cutting edge procurement going on does need senior managers. Well under 100 above 1* in the navy I think.
    There's no doubt that a lot of those program management jobs could be done, probably better, by MoD civvies - although it's all fucking relative. There are a couple of good reasons for creating lots of flag ranks. First, you need to give people in the middle ranks a chance of advancement to stay in. If there is almost no chance of getting your flag because there are so few admiral positions available then a lot of OF-5/6 will just leave. Second, you need a broad talent or perhaps 'talent' pool for selecting the very top ranks as the Navy can't recruit externally.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Leon said:

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
    It is a strategic miscalculation. Without the fisheries protection cutters and the presidential band, Europe's defences against the Russian Federation could be fatally undermined.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    Dura_Ace said:

    There's no doubt that a lot of those program management jobs could be done, probably better, by MoD civvies - although it's all fucking relative. There are a couple of good reasons for creating lots of flag ranks. First, you need to give people in the middle ranks a chance of advancement to stay in. If there is almost no chance of getting your flag because there are so few admiral positions available then a lot of OF-5/6 will just leave. Second, you need a broad talent or perhaps 'talent' pool for selecting the very top ranks as the Navy can't recruit externally.
    Rather like the old days, when every Captain RN got to admiral automatically if he didn't catch yellow fever in the Windies or a dodgy salmon mousse at Lady ffotherington's June Ball. Only in those days they sent most of them home on half pay and only employed the intelligent ones (or the ones with too much influence: vide: Byng).
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,735
    Dura_Ace said:

    There's no doubt that a lot of those program management jobs could be done, probably better, by MoD civvies - although it's all fucking relative. There are a couple of good reasons for creating lots of flag ranks. First, you need to give people in the middle ranks a chance of advancement to stay in. If there is almost no chance of getting your flag because there are so few admiral positions available then a lot of OF-5/6 will just leave. Second, you need a broad talent or perhaps 'talent' pool for selecting the very top ranks as the Navy can't recruit externally.
    RE: The MOD CS doing the programme roles - yes and ten years ago I’d have said “civilianise them all”, but in addition your points, as you get older you also see the value of a “rest post” and the need to get senior military some strategic skills and sense of Whitehall*.

    *This has yet to work, but we can only hope.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    Cicero said:

    The Baltic has now got strategic depth with Sweden now in NATO and with the extremely capable armies of Finland and Poland on each flank. If Russia makes a move then K'grad is liberated in a few days and St Petersburg and Murmansk under immediate direct attack. A Russian attack could be defeated pretty quickly. The consequences for Putin could quite literally be fatal.
    You could have told us you wrote a whole SONG expressing your passionate views. And produced by ex-PBer @eadric?!

    https://www.udio.com/songs/jFyU2EzeZ9c3SSxyKVzYWG
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,617
    biggles said:

    RE: The MOD CS doing the programme roles - yes and ten years ago I’d have said “civilianise them all”, but in addition your points, as you get older you also see the value of a “rest post” and the need to get senior military some strategic skills and sense of Whitehall*.

    *This has yet to work, but we can only hope.
    Funny, though, that the logic doesn't extend to e.g. training bases, or even just doing the sweeping and cooking at RN Barrack Plymouth: a useful manpower reserve in 1938-39, easily compensated for in part by reinstating/expanding the WRNS.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Looks like our tame Saturday morning troll rocked up to PB a day late :lol:
  • pigeon said:

    It is a strategic miscalculation. Without the fisheries protection cutters and the presidential band, Europe's defences against the Russian Federation could be fatally undermined.
    Ireland probably has more functioning vessels than we have :lol:
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,735
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Shhhhhh. I want to move house.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,295
    Leon said:

    You could have told us you wrote a whole SONG expressing your passionate views. And produced by ex-PBer @eadric?!

    https://www.udio.com/songs/jFyU2EzeZ9c3SSxyKVzYWG
    Fair play to @Cicero tho, he plays guitar rather nicely, and his voice is not bad

    Respect
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,482
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    The specific threat is that France might become too powerful if they do it and we don't.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited February 16
    Leon said:

    You could have told us you wrote a whole SONG expressing your passionate views. And produced by ex-PBer @eadric?!

    https://www.udio.com/songs/jFyU2EzeZ9c3SSxyKVzYWG
    It interesting that Udio (or any of the other text to music apps) has never gone viral in the way text to image / video continuously do.
This discussion has been closed.