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Champagne socialism – politicalbetting.com

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,447

    I lived in Hackney, when I was in the UK.
    And the country I grew up in was born multi-cultural.
    I would never vote Reform.

    But as a fellow liberal, don’t you worry as I do about the rise of avowedly Islamic political parties in the UK?
    I would much rather that people of all religions and none were welcome in all parties.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,776
    Scott_xP said:

    They are not

    They are the inevitable product of disinformation
    Possibly. Americans of a persuasion always trot out John Stuart Mill to support their fundamentalist take on free speech. (a) They may misinterpret Mill's arguments. (b) Mill isn't necessarily right. I think a bit of both applies, but it's not the full explanation.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613
    ydoethur said:

    Absolutely.

    I'm still furious at those English bastards using a silly name like 'Snowdon' for our mountain.
    Not even named after a royal by blood, was it?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,161
    Foxy said:

    I would much rather that people of all religions and none were welcome in all parties.

    We'd all rather live in an ideal world, but we don't. You can't wish away difficult issues with idealism.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,852

    We'd all rather live in an ideal world, but we don't. You can't wish away difficult issues with idealism.
    Has anyone explained this to Trump and Farage?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,475

    I'm only three-eighths Irish so hopefully I can avoid the cull.
    {checks copy of Nuremberg Laws and Nazi racial hierarchies}

    Sorry, that makes you Celtic.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,613
    Chris said:

    1500 years?

    OK - we see from that that you are keen on the "Anglo-Saxons". But you need to think about the dates a bit more closely. The Anglo-Saxons were non-Christian 1500 years ago.

    Or maybe it's just "My Anglo-Saxon, right or wrong"?
    As if the territory of the present-day UK was all Anglo-Saxon or all Pagan in 525CE ...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,639
    IanB2 said:

    Anyone who replies to a post from that Leon, perhaps?
    So it's now fascist to speak to Leon then?
    This is similar to a point I made to Winchy yesterday: you are drawing the bounds of unacceptable behaviour so ridiculously widely that when people are placed outside of it they just shrug.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,348
    Thelakes said:

    Trump hangs his own mugshot outside the oval office.

    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1890611074371666223

    Crooked.

    The mugshot, I mean.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,447

    This comes back to the failure of our systems and particularly, for want of a better term 'multiculturalism'. Had we followed the Norwegian system of insisting that all new long term settlers adopt Norwegian language and custom, then I think our immigration experience and attitudes would have been very different. As it is we have left it to the individual and, at some point, adopted the idea that advocating British/English culture equates with racism.

    Though France is avowedly against "multiculturism" to the point of refusing to keep ethnicity data etc

    It's not a matter of "multiculturalism" or not, it's a matter of being welcoming.

    Having lived as an immigrant myself (in Australia and New Zealand, possibly the two countries most similar to Britain) I found being a foreigner quite isolating at times. I therefore make a conscious effort to invite immigrant colleagues to dinner. Indeed many years I have had such colleagues for Christmas dinner.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,778
    IanB2 said:

    Second! Kemi can only dream.

    Meanwhile, Applebaum on the war now declared on the US civil service - worth a read (£ or free article):

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/doge-civil-servant-purge/681671/

    https://archive.is/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/doge-civil-servant-purge/681671/
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,838
    Fishing said:

    You're thinking about most criminal law, which generally has the presumption of innocence. (Actually not even all criminal law has the presumption of innocence - in some cases, such as unexplained wealth orders, where the government usually failed to prove its case, rather than upping its game, it reversed the burden of proof, sort of like a five-year-old who can't win fairly.

    But civil law has just requires balance of probability - in order words, a 51% likelihood is sufficient. And that's a more logical standard for the court of public opinion. In a criminal trial, the state has the ability to force people to testify, demand evidence, interrogate for hours, etc. and usually has much greater resources than the losers who end up in the dock, so it is right that they are held to a higher standard.

    And in the case of Reeves, given the evidence, and her complete lack of any persuasive explanation, I think that the 51% threshold has been more than met.
    It seems a bit bizarre to be given a little lecture on the basics of criminal and civil law, concluding with a reference to the "evidence" against Reeves. Perhaps you need to do a bit more research!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,252
    Winchy said:

    Why don't you read that chapter and learn something new about what Hitler advocated in 1925 on issues of nation, citizenship, and "race" - because there it is, in 1000 words, and it's very clear, and I am saying it's essentially the same as what Leon is advocating now wrt "white babies" and Britain as a white country.

    There's one reference to Jews in that chapter, and there are no references whatsoever to "Aryans" or "ubermenschen" and "untermenschen" The chapter isn't about Jews versus Aryans, FFS. Maybe actually read what Hitler wrote before you call the comparison I'm drawing "inept". I'm particularly drawing attention to the notion of non-citizen "subjects".

    Perhaps I need to emphasise the date: 1925.
    I’ve got a pretty clear idea of what Hitler was advocating in Mein Kampf. Probably clearer than you have.

    Even in Mein Kampf, you can find passages that are fairly unexceptionable.

    Your comparison remains inflammatory and inept.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,778
    Battlebus said:

    So that explains Leprechauns.
    Not that kind of reduced. This kind of reduced.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,996

    This is detached from reality. Has China respected the Joint Declaration or the sovereignty of Philippine waters? Is China not committed to annexing Taiwan? Does China not use a range of policies designed to subsidise its own exporters?
    Yes. But these are known knowns. We don't like any of it. But deals can be done around these problems. You don't trust them but they may to an extent be easier to deal as can be viewed as predictable.

    No one is saying having to do deals with China is in anyway ideal. But the Vice President of China didn't come over to Munich to promote being nice to neo-Nazis the day Chernobyl was attacked by Russia. While its top oligarch blows up its institutions, interferes in our politics, and the President rips up deals he signed a few years ago after the last time he threw a tantrum, then demands money with menaces over imagined sleights. It's a basketcase at best and well on the road to fascism if you're less sanguine.

    This is a country that in the past week or two has attempted to betray us an Ukraine to Putin, threatened to invade a European country and annex Canada. Has halted its aid programmes overnight over conspiracy theories - quite possibly killing hundreds of thousands and stopping some of the world's most important medical trials. That fired the people who look after its nukes, only to try and hire them back, as well as handing all its government data to a bunch of teenage far right internet trolls.

    Several of whose top prosecutors resigned a day ago because they refused to drop bribery charges agains NYC's mayor on the understanding he helped ICE agents deport people. That stopped publishing flu case data in the middle of an outbreak.

    Oh and that has appointed a known pro-Russia conspiracy theorist as its intelligence chief, and put an anti-vaxxer in charge of its public health. That's of course not the half of it.

    You just need to be clear-eyed and reasonable about what is happening in America to see it's not going to be a reliable partner in future if it keeps down the road its leaders seem intent on taking it on.

    Which leaves us with a big problem, and one to which the only solution may be to at least be moderately more amenable to the superpower that isn't going to drag us into its own nervous breakdown or fall into fascism.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,183
    edited February 15
    MJW said:

    Yes. But these are known knowns. We don't like any of it. But deals can be done around these problems. You don't trust them but they may to an extent be easier to deal as can be viewed as predictable.

    No one is saying having to do deals with China is in anyway ideal. But the Vice President of China didn't come over to Munich to promote being nice to neo-Nazis the day Chernobyl was attacked by Russia. While its top oligarch blows up its institutions, interferes in our politics, and the President rips up deals he signed a few years ago after the last time he threw a tantrum, then demands money with menaces over imagined sleights. It's a basketcase at best and well on the road to fascism if you're less sanguine.

    This is a country that in the past week or two has attempted to betray us an Ukraine to Putin, threatened to invade a European country and annex Canada. Has halted its aid programmes overnight over conspiracy theories - quite possibly killing hundreds of thousands and stopping some of the world's most important medical trials. That fired the people who look after its nukes, only to try and hire them back, as well as handing all its government data to a bunch of teenage far right internet trolls.

    Several of whose top prosecutors resigned a day ago because they refused to drop bribery charges agains NYC's mayor on the understanding he helped ICE agents deport people. That stopped publishing flu case data in the middle of an outbreak.

    Oh and that has appointed a known pro-Russia conspiracy theorist as its intelligence chief, and put an anti-vaxxer in charge of its public health. That's of course not the half of it.

    You just need to be clear-eyed and reasonable about what is happening in America to see it's not going to be a reliable partner in future if it keeps down the road its leaders seem intent on taking it on.

    Which leaves us with a big problem, and one to which the only solution may be to at least be moderately more amenable to the superpower that isn't going to drag us into its own nervous breakdown or fall into fascism.
    China doesn't have to "fall into fascism". In pratical terms, though the labels may differ, it has already been there for many years.

    The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. They are just another enemy.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,086

    I think they are the inevitable product of neglect and scorn.

    The American public have been so poorly served by their political leaders for so long that it was remarkably easy for a shyster like Trump with a modicum of native cunning to take advantage of them. The mistake most people make is thinking that this is all about Trump. It is not. Had it not been him it would have been someone equally as dishonest. This is all about a failure of the American social and gvernmental systems over many years. An inevitable failure I would suggest since the system exists to serve the corporations and the rich rather than the 'Average Joe' as the Americans like to term him.
    I think there is some merit in that argument

    The irony of course is that nobody has greater contempt for the people that voted for him than Trump

    He is going to screw them more effectively than any previous President, while demanding praise for doing it

    Like his buddy Putin
  • Scott_xP said:

    I think there is some merit in that argument

    The irony of course is that nobody has greater contempt for the people that voted for him than Trump

    He is going to screw them more effectively than any previous President, while demanding praise for doing it

    Like his buddy Putin
    Can't disagree with a word of that.

    The problem is that people are railing against the almost inevitable result of the very systems and actions they supported for so many years.
  • Hopefully we'll not have to hear anything more of these self-indulgent idiots:

    The family of a British couple in custody in Iran say they are united in their determination to secure their safe return.

    Craig and Lindsay Foreman were arrested in January, but news of their detention emerged on Thursday when state-run Iranian media reported they were being held on unspecified security charges.

    The couple, in their early 50s, had been on a motorbike trip across the world, and had only planned on being in Iran for five days.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c626p6pz7xlo
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,161
    Vance responds to some criticism of his speech:

    https://x.com/jdvance/status/1890760676282601590

    First, I’d note the president did give multiple public statements about Mexico and Canada’s role in the fentanyl crisis. Policy always has a communications element.

    Second, the goal wasn’t to hector European allies. I admitted in the speech that many of these censorious impulses derive from bad American leadership, and that has now changed. See, for instance, what we’ve done with USAID.

    Third, I don’t think Europe is blameless. And we’re not going to change anything overnight. But reminding both our American and European friends that we have an admin biased towards open debate and expression was worth the effort.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,778

    They're the inevitable reaction against building a society based on lies.
    We have developed methods where ideas can spread to billions of people in moments, limited only by the prejudices of the owners. Over such a scale, what is a "lie" to one person is a "truth" to another, and things like "fact-checking" become logistically impossible. People used to refer to https://www.snopes.com/ all the time, but now do so rarely. The best we can hope for is some kind of consensus reality, but that will be created and enforced by threats and cancellation, not logic. It is a bad world we are building.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,996

    China doesn't have to "fall into fascism". In pratical terms, though the labels may differ, it has already been there for many years.

    The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. They are just another enemy.
    They are not, but one has to steer nearer to one of Scylla and Charybdis.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,915

    Hopefully we'll not have to hear anything more of these self-indulgent idiots:

    The family of a British couple in custody in Iran say they are united in their determination to secure their safe return.

    Craig and Lindsay Foreman were arrested in January, but news of their detention emerged on Thursday when state-run Iranian media reported they were being held on unspecified security charges.

    The couple, in their early 50s, had been on a motorbike trip across the world, and had only planned on being in Iran for five days.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c626p6pz7xlo

    Why self-indulgent?
  • ydoethur said:

    Absolutely.

    I'm still furious at those English bastards using a silly name like 'Snowdon' for our mountain.
    Isn't Snowed-on a sensible description of a decent sized mountain?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    edited February 15
    PB gets ever more ridiculous, childish and hysterical. Now anyone who simply communicates with me is “fascist”?

    Haddaway and shite you’re a bunch of gusset-wetting girl guides. I’m going to watch Sky Atlantic’s “Mussolini”

    It’s rather good. The hero is brilliant. Some hardcore Italian journalist. Apparently it’s all true - can’t wait to see what happens to him
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,778
    glw said:

    The thing that is really telling about this is not that these "geniuses" didn't know about the data types of the various versions of the different COBOL standards, it's that they jumped to the explanation of fraud rather than thinking "why does the same date in 1875 keep appearing?" A mildly intelligent person with access to a search engine ought to be able to figure it out. The DOGE boys appear to be overconfident and not all that clever.
    I miss COBOL. Five-nines reliability (up at least 99.999% of the time: downtime about 5mins per annum at most). Write once, run for decades. Jumpers for goalposts. Somebody bring it back, please... :(
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,996

    Vance responds to some criticism of his speech:

    https://x.com/jdvance/status/1890760676282601590

    First, I’d note the president did give multiple public statements about Mexico and Canada’s role in the fentanyl crisis. Policy always has a communications element.

    Second, the goal wasn’t to hector European allies. I admitted in the speech that many of these censorious impulses derive from bad American leadership, and that has now changed. See, for instance, what we’ve done with USAID.

    Third, I don’t think Europe is blameless. And we’re not going to change anything overnight. But reminding both our American and European friends that we have an admin biased towards open debate and expression was worth the effort.

    His administration are about as in favour of open debate and expression as George Best was of a quiet night in with a mug of hot chocolate. Or they wouldn't be deleting and censoring vast amounts of reports and data from government agencies that says things they don't like, nor asking scientists to withdraw papers.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,212
    Foxy said:

    I would much rather that people of all religions and none were welcome in all parties.

    Zia Yusuf is afaik a Muslim, and he is the second most important person in Reform. People of all religions and none are welcome in all mainstream political parties, but whilst they they undoubtedly influence party policy, they do not get to shape the agenda fully, hence the emergence of sectarian parties.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    I just wish he’d shave his head tho. This “Mussolini” character. He’s got great political nous and brilliant policies but he looks ridiculous with that tonsure of baldness

    So far I’m on to episode 2 - about 1920

    NO SPOILERS
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,110
    edited February 15
    MJW said:

    His administration are about as in favour of open debate and expression as George Best was of a quiet night in with a mug of hot chocolate. Or they wouldn't be deleting and censoring vast amounts of reports and data from government agencies that says things they don't like, nor asking scientists to withdraw papers.
    Also, what’s the cancellation of USAID got to do with freedom of expression?

    Vance has sold his soul to the devil.
    Hopefully he gets his (political) comeuppance in due course.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,161
    MJW said:

    His administration are about as in favour of open debate and expression as George Best was of a quiet night in with a mug of hot chocolate. Or they wouldn't be deleting and censoring vast amounts of reports and data from government agencies that says things they don't like, nor asking scientists to withdraw papers.
    I don't believe that's a fair characterisation of what is happening.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,415
    Leon said:

    PB gets ever more ridiculous, childish and hysterical. Now anyone who simply communicates with me is “fascist”?

    Haddaway and shite you’re a bunch of gusset-wetting girl guides. I’m going to watch Sky Atlantic’s “Mussolini”

    It’s rather good. The hero is brilliant. Some hardcore Italian journalist. Apparently it’s all true - can’t wait to see what happens to him

    My father was in Italy with the RAF during WW2. He was a photographer. He had a photo of Mussolini hanging upside down. Just sayin’.
  • I think I disagree with you. As I have repeated many times on here before, one of the most English men I ever met was an Indian born in Uganda whose family came to Britain when he was a child as part of the Amin exodus. There is simply no way you would ever have known he was not white English from what he said or wrote. I consider him one of my greatest friends from my time at work. Sadly he suffered severe brain damage in a car accident a few years ago.

    But I genuinely believe, based on more than 50 years of friendships and associations, that being culturally British/English has nothing at all to do with race.
    That's where there's something uncomfortable going on. Yes, Britishness is much better than many national vibes at being in the mind and the soul, rather than the skin and the genes. The correct British attitude to anything more
    aggressive is the one PG Wodehouse put in Bertie Wooster's mouth - Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?

    Trouble is that many people whose families have only recently arrived embody that spirit better than some who can trace their ancestry back generations.

    Who is the authentic Briton and who is the aberration?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,724
  • Vance responds to some criticism of his speech:

    https://x.com/jdvance/status/1890760676282601590

    First, I’d note the president did give multiple public statements about Mexico and Canada’s role in the fentanyl crisis. Policy always has a communications element.

    Second, the goal wasn’t to hector European allies. I admitted in the speech that many of these censorious impulses derive from bad American leadership, and that has now changed. See, for instance, what we’ve done with USAID.

    Third, I don’t think Europe is blameless. And we’re not going to change anything overnight. But reminding both our American and European friends that we have an admin biased towards open debate and expression was worth the effort.

    If you're explaining, you're winning, as nobody ever said.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,415

    That's where there's something uncomfortable going on. Yes, Britishness is much better than many national vibes at being in the mind and the soul, rather than the skin and the genes. The correct British attitude to anything more
    aggressive is the one PG Wodehouse put in Bertie Wooster's mouth - Did you ever in your puff see such a perfect perisher?

    Trouble is that many people whose families have only recently arrived embody that spirit better than some who can trace their ancestry back generations.

    Who is the authentic Briton and who is the aberration?
    I can imagine someone from the Indian subcontinent using Wooster’s turn of phrase. I can’t imagine anyone from Barnsley or Clacton using it. Don’t know what that proves, though.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,086
    Trump's spokesman says Europe will be responsible for peace in Ukraine.

    But they are not invited to the peace talks...
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Andy_JS said:

    Why self-indulgent?
    Well, certainly unwise. Going on a jolly to Iran of all bloody places was an astonishingly stupid thing to do.

    This could very easily turn into one of those cases where the Foreign Office has to spend years trying simultaneously to get them back out again, whilst dealing with furious family members sobbing all over the media about how the Government doesn't care and isn't doing enough.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,183
    edited February 15
    MJW said:

    They are not, but one has to steer nearer to one of Scylla and Charybdis.
    No one really doesn't.

    Edit. Do you know how the ancients got around the problem of Scylla and Charybdis? They built a new city in Southern Italy by the name of Sybaris and used a land route to avoid having to go anywhere near the Straits of Messina. Sybaris in turn became the richest, most decadent city in the ancient world. Larger and richer than Athens. Until some buggers burnt it down.

    Think outside the box a bit rather than always returning to the same old solutions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,852

    Vance responds to some criticism of his speech:

    https://x.com/jdvance/status/1890760676282601590

    First, I’d note the president did give multiple public statements about Mexico and Canada’s role in the fentanyl crisis. Policy always has a communications element.

    Second, the goal wasn’t to hector European allies. I admitted in the speech that many of these censorious impulses derive from bad American leadership, and that has now changed.

    Well, in the sense it's change from bad to fucking disastrous, he may have a point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,447

    I can imagine someone from the Indian subcontinent using Wooster’s turn of phrase. I can’t imagine anyone from Barnsley or Clacton using it. Don’t know what that proves, though.
    I don't think anyone would use that language now (if indeed they ever would) but I can imagine similar, perhaps fruitier language about Spode, from any part of Britain.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,415
    Foxy said:

    I don't think anyone would use that language now (if indeed they ever would) but I can imagine similar, perhaps fruitier language about Spode, from any part of Britain.
    I’m going to make a point of using it now!
  • Andy_JS said:

    Why self-indulgent?
    The FO advise for a long time has been do not travel to Iran as the mere possession of a British passport is very likely to get you arrested.

    They could have travelled Turkey/Azerbijan/Caspian and avoided Iran entirely.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,475

    I can imagine someone from the Indian subcontinent using Wooster’s turn of phrase. I can’t imagine anyone from Barnsley or Clacton using it. Don’t know what that proves, though.
    The point is the sentiment & the nature of reaction. Not violence, not disgust. Just good natured contempt.

    “Scorn and defiance, slight regard, contempt,
    And anything that may not misbecome
    The mighty sender, doth he prize you at”
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,026
    Scott_xP said:

    Trump's spokesman says Europe will be responsible for peace in Ukraine.

    But they are not invited to the peace talks...

    That's going to have to change. Or failure of the peace will be wholly laid at Trump's door.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,475
    pigeon said:

    Well, certainly unwise. Going on a jolly to Iran of all bloody places was an astonishingly stupid thing to do.

    This could very easily turn into one of those cases where the Foreign Office has to spend years trying simultaneously to get them back out again, whilst dealing with furious family members sobbing all over the media about how the Government doesn't care and isn't doing enough.
    I’m reminded of very stupid woman who wanted to see a “real, vibrant market” - in the worst part of Lagos. When things were really shitty there.

    She got her wish. Then complained that her company provided bodyguards *didnt* intervene when a thief got scragged by a mob in front of them.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,834
    viewcode said:

    https://archive.is/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/doge-civil-servant-purge/681671/
    Def worth a look
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,086

    That's going to have to change. Or failure of the peace will be wholly laid at Trump's door.
    Well, yes, but not in any way that matters.

    @donwinslow

    Donald Trump's greatest accomplishment is convincing his cult to only listen to him. Facts don't matter, pictures don't matter, data doesn't matter, math doesn't count. If he says it and Fox repeats it, it becomes a fact for them instantaneously. No one can breach the wall of BS.

    c.f. BoZo and Nigel Fucking Farage.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,459
    Back to China: one of the common themes of that excellent tome “the rise and fall of the great powers” by Paul Kennedy is that in each period of history where there was a rising hegemon, every geopolitical ruction between the established powers managed to benefit that country and accelerate its rise.

    Thus Britain from the mid 1700s to about 1880 seemed to prosper each time the others squabbled, and it even prospered when it found itself involved, as happened during the napoleonic wars.

    America from the 1850s onwards kept adding relative power every time the Europeans got into wars with each other. It usually sat back and left them to it, while manufacturing the food, steel and weaponry they needed.

    Now China does the same. The Ukraine invasion hands it a supplicant Russia on a plate, and cheap oil and gas. Trump threatens to soften Europe to its charms. The loss of post colonial influence by France in West Africa and Britain in Asia creates a vacuum it’s more than happy to fill.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,644
    Foxy said:

    Cultural change is not new.

    I am the same ethnicity as my parents, grandparents and sons, but we have very different cultures.

    I didn't really have any contact with anyone non-white until I went to Medical School in South London. At first it seemed quite alien, but over time it became normality and I cringe now at some of my attitudes to race, religion or homosexuality, though these were fairly mainstream in the Eighties.

    It's the same now. It's no coincidence that the strongest Reform polling is in those parts of the country where there are fewest immigrants. It is fear of otherness.
    Modern British racists are more culturally racist than strictly by ethnic descent. The number of people who openly object to the Conservative leader on racial grounds seems close to zero, because she sounds exactly like white leaders of all parties. Indeed, the Shadow Cabinet as a whole is impressively diverse in strict ethnic terms.

    The difficulty arises when someone sounds different and has different cultural assumptions. Some of them really don't matter - who really cares whether curry is more popular than 30 years ago? Other assumptions - e.g. the role of women - matter more, though they themselves change over time. If immigration is limited the changes are mostly towards the British tradition, and thus comfortably viewed by Brits. If immigration is large-scale, that may be different. We shouldn't assume that our traditions are necessarily better, but it's certainly less comfortable to challenge them.

    To some extent this is best handled by accepting that there are different cultural traditions, and one may prefer one or another, and supporting the right of individuals to change without necessarily assuming that they *should*. It's a subtle business, unsuited to slogans and instinctive reactions.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,026
    biggles said:
    For vexillographers everywhere, a short history of the flag of Canada:

    https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/flag-canada-history.html

    Just look at that horror with the French fleur-de-lis added! Got to the final three too.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,743
    viewcode said:

    I miss COBOL. Five-nines reliability (up at least 99.999% of the time: downtime about 5mins per annum at most). Write once, run for decades. Jumpers for goalposts. Somebody bring it back, please... :(
    You'll get the JVM and you'll like it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,304

    Vance responds to some criticism of his speech:

    https://x.com/jdvance/status/1890760676282601590

    First, I’d note the president did give multiple public statements about Mexico and Canada’s role in the fentanyl crisis. Policy always has a communications element.

    Second, the goal wasn’t to hector European allies. I admitted in the speech that many of these censorious impulses derive from bad American leadership, and that has now changed. See, for instance, what we’ve done with USAID.

    Third, I don’t think Europe is blameless. And we’re not going to change anything overnight. But reminding both our American and European friends that we have an admin biased towards open debate and expression was worth the effort.

    MAGA is one big tiresome troll, isn't it. Very fitting for the times.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,026

    The FO advise for a long time has been do not travel to Iran as the mere possession of a British passport is very likely to get you arrested.

    They could have travelled Turkey/Azerbijan/Caspian and avoided Iran entirely.
    They'll have some great dinner party material though about their time in Iranian prisons.

    Best just hope the PM doesn't idly suggest they might have been spying...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,475

    You'll get the JVM and you'll like it.
    Given the atrocity committed with COBOL I just binned…. It was definitely write only. And completely unmaintainable.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,976
    Leon said:

    I just wish he’d shave his head tho. This “Mussolini” character. He’s got great political nous and brilliant policies but he looks ridiculous with that tonsure of baldness

    So far I’m on to episode 2 - about 1920

    NO SPOILERS

    That was early Mussolini’s hairstyle, he obviously agreed that Il Duce should be a firm chinned snooker ball.
    Perhaps the combover rsoles of today (Bibi, Lukashenko etc) should take note.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    Ooh. This Mussolini guy is telling his men to wear black shirts

    Like
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,560
    Footie result from Manchester:

    UAE 4 KSA 0

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,714
    edited February 15

    All the evidnece shows that you are clearly wrong on this. I accept that culture changes all the time and that is not abad thing at all. But when dealing with and acepting large scale migration as Western Countries are currently doing it is clear that the best way of coping with this is insisting that the set of values and laws held by the host country are the ones that are enforced and have to be accepted by those arriving from elsewhere. Even if that runs counter to their own religious beliefs.

    The rights of women and minorities, free speech, animal welfare (I pick that one particularly for you Nick) and the supremacy of local laws must be enforced. Cultural relativism of the type you advocate here simply does not work. The comparison between Norway and Sweden is instructive here.

    I'd agree that the supremacy of the host country's laws must be fully accepted by incomers. However, you then add 'values', which I don't quite agree with - especially as you cite the importance of free speech in your last paragraph. For example, equality for women, and for gay people, are values that are to some extent enshrined in law. But there are lots of people in this country who are not immigrants who don't believe in equality for those groups, who don't share these values, yet we tolerate that in the name of free speech as long as it's not unlawful. I don't see why immigrants should be treated differently from home-grown traditionalists.
    In short - I don't think you and Nick are as far apart as you suggest.
  • WinchyWinchy Posts: 130
    edited February 15
    Leon said:


    Yes, of course, quietly requesting that my own country retains some semblance of the ethnic and cultural identity it has had for 1500 years makes me a “Nazi” equivalent to “Hitler”

    You know what? This madness is gonna end badly for you guys. Don’t say you weren’t warned

    The idea that "if you don't lie over for us within a few years, we're gonna have to win by methods you're REALLY not going to find to your liking" seems to be awfully in vogue at the moment on the North London loony right.

    In the words of the ex-spad husband of a commissioning editor at the Spectator (on his Substack site):

    "Conventional wisdom in 1999 was ‘joining the euro is inevitable’, in 2004 it was ‘Blair has a massive lead in the polls on regional assemblies’, in 2015 it was ‘there’s almost no chance of Leave winning’, in 2019 it was ‘there’s no way through the impasse’, in 2020 it was ‘covid vaccines are practically impossible’, and in 2021 it was ‘no chance you push out Boris’. Pushing out Starmer with some new force doesn’t feel more improbable than those examples did at the time.

    Beating Starmer in an election is the easiest part. The hardest part is unifying a force on the Right that voters prefer given that much of ‘the right’ in SW1 would rather stay failing, stay fighting each other as they’ve been trained to by culture and incentives, and leave Starmer in office and see the country taken over by the IMF rather than do what’s needed to win and turn the country around. Often in history people cannot be saved, only ‘retired’. It’s possible the Tories can only be buried as quickly as possible but this can’t yet be known, it depends on how the cards fall. And if that does prove necessary, this means little chance of a serious government before ~2032 by which time many problems will be profound and serious violence harder to avoid.** We should try the easier path first.
    "

    (This descends into embarrassing gibberish in places. But the basic idea is "We achieved Brexit and we ain't finished, not by a long chalk, and maybe this won't be easy and fast, but we know about History, and if this isn't easy then it's gonna be bigly and seriously violent with a capital V." If this isn't deliberate destabilisation of a country, I don't know what is.)
  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83
    Leon said:

    lol
    The online safety bill has basically been junked under pressure from Trump. So i would say safe to discuss now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,881
    Andy_JS said:

    Why do you conflate race and Islam?
    Are you saying Islamophobia's okay because you don't see it as 'racist' ?
  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83
    kinabalu said:

    MAGA is one big tiresome troll, isn't it. Very fitting for the times.
    More entertaining than listening to you ramble on though.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,475

    I'd agree that the supremacy of the host country's laws must be fully accepted by incomers. However, you then add 'values', which I don't quite agree with - especially as you cite the importance of free speech in your last paragraph. For example, equality for women, and for gay people, are values that are to some extent are enshrined in law. But there are lots of people in this country who are not immigrants who don't believe in equality for those groups, who don't share these values. yet we tolerate that in the name of free speech as long as it's not unlawful. I don't see why immigrants should be treated differently from home-grown traditionalists.
    In short - I don't think you and Nick are as far apart as you suggest.
    A vignette

    I was running a team. For some reason the team knees up was organised by HR (I forget why)

    They proudly announced that we were going to a halal curry shop. Two of the team said they wouldn’t go.

    HR went on the war path - who were these two so they could be sacked as racists?

    They were Indian Hindus who told a story of how, back in the day, the Muslim rulers of the their state had tried to impose halal etc. To them being told to eat it was cultural imperialism.

    HR backed off, discombobulated.

    Who was right and wrong here, and why?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,639

    A vignette

    I was running a team. For some reason the team knees up was organised by HR (I forget why)

    They proudly announced that we were going to a halal curry shop. Two of the team said they wouldn’t go.

    HR went on the war path - who were these two so they could be sacked as racists?

    They were Indian Hindus who told a story of how, back in the day, the Muslim rulers of the their state had tried to impose halal etc. To them being told to eat it was cultural imperialism.

    HR backed off, discombobulated.

    Who was right and wrong here, and why?
    I find the creeping normalisation of halal a bit uncomfortable, to be honest. It strikes me as rather less humane a form if butchery than mught be ideal. Though I may be ill-informed here.
  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83
    Foxy said:

    Though France is avowedly against "multiculturism" to the point of refusing to keep ethnicity data etc

    It's not a matter of "multiculturalism" or not, it's a matter of being welcoming.

    Having lived as an immigrant myself (in Australia and New Zealand, possibly the two countries most similar to Britain) I found being a foreigner quite isolating at times. I therefore make a conscious effort to invite immigrant colleagues to dinner. Indeed many years I have had such colleagues for Christmas dinner.

    Thats nice but im sure your doctor colleagues are rather different to the muslims in bradford and blackburn.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,291
    Scott_xP said:

    Trump's spokesman says Europe will be responsible for peace in Ukraine.

    But they are not invited to the peace talks...

    Neither is Zelensky, so they won't accept whatever Trump and Putin decide in Saudi Arablia
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,930

    A vignette

    I was running a team. For some reason the team knees up was organised by HR (I forget why)

    They proudly announced that we were going to a halal curry shop. Two of the team said they wouldn’t go.

    HR went on the war path - who were these two so they could be sacked as racists?

    They were Indian Hindus who told a story of how, back in the day, the Muslim rulers of the their state had tried to impose halal etc. To them being told to eat it was cultural imperialism.

    HR backed off, discombobulated.

    Who was right and wrong here, and why?
    Forcing someone to eat something they don't want to eat is surely the preserve of sadists. Your HR person isn't fit for the role.
  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83
    Foxy said:

    Cultural change is not new.

    I am the same ethnicity as my parents, grandparents and sons, but we have very different cultures.

    I didn't really have any contact with anyone non-white until I went to Medical School in South London. At first it seemed quite alien, but over time it became normality and I cringe now at some of my attitudes to race, religion or homosexuality, though these were fairly mainstream in the Eighties.

    It's the same now. It's no coincidence that the strongest Reform polling is in those parts of the country where there are fewest immigrants. It is fear of otherness.
    No reform polls most strongly in areas like kent and essex which are adjacent to areas of big mass immigration. It obviously doesnt poll well in london and birmingham becausecwhites are a minority there.
  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83
    HYUFD said:

    Neither is Zelensky, so they won't accept whatever Trump and Putin decide in Saudi Arablia
    Zelensky may have no choice.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    Winchy said:

    The idea that "if you don't lie over for us within a few years, we're gonna have to win by methods you're REALLY not going to find to your liking" seems to be awfully in vogue at the moment on the North London loony right.

    In the words of the ex-spad husband of a commissioning editor at the Spectator (on his Substack site):

    "Conventional wisdom in 1999 was ‘joining the euro is inevitable’, in 2004 it was ‘Blair has a massive lead in the polls on regional assemblies’, in 2015 it was ‘there’s almost no chance of Leave winning’, in 2019 it was ‘there’s no way through the impasse’, in 2020 it was ‘covid vaccines are practically impossible’, and in 2021 it was ‘no chance you push out Boris’. Pushing out Starmer with some new force doesn’t feel more improbable than those examples did at the time.

    Beating Starmer in an election is the easiest part. The hardest part is unifying a force on the Right that voters prefer given that much of ‘the right’ in SW1 would rather stay failing, stay fighting each other as they’ve been trained to by culture and incentives, and leave Starmer in office and see the country taken over by the IMF rather than do what’s needed to win and turn the country around. Often in history people cannot be saved, only ‘retired’. It’s possible the Tories can only be buried as quickly as possible but this can’t yet be known, it depends on how the cards fall. And if that does prove necessary, this means little chance of a serious government before ~2032 by which time many problems will be profound and serious violence harder to avoid.** We should try the easier path first.
    "

    (This descends into embarrassing gibberish in places. But the basic idea is "We achieved Brexit and we ain't finished, not by a long chalk, and maybe this won't be easy and fast, but we know about History, and if this isn't easy then it's gonna be bigly and seriously violent with a capital V." If this isn't deliberate destabilisation of a country, I don't know what is.)
    What the fuck is continuous mass immigration on the scale of 300,000-1m people a year but “deliberate destabilisation”?

    No one voted for this. Time and again we have voted AGAINST this. Yet on and on it goes

    So democracy has ceased to function. What happens then?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,291
    Andy_JS said:

    Reminder of Martin Baxter's latest MRP study for Electoral Calculus.

    Con 178
    RefUK 175
    Lab 174
    LD 57
    SNP 37
    Grn 4
    PC 2

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_vipoll_20250207.html

    Which after all that would make Kemi PM if she could agree a deal with Farage
  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83
    Leon said:

    What the fuck is continuous mass immigration on the scale of 300,000-1m people a year but “deliberate destabilisation”?

    No one voted for this. Time and again we have voted AGAINST this. Yet on and on it goes

    So democracy has ceased to function. What happens then?
    Leon Jock in Dallas said something very profound. "No one gives you power power is something you have to take" So it may need a strong man dictator tp abolish parliament and take power. Parliament is a pretty useless talking shop anyway.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,692
    HYUFD said:

    Which after all that would make Kemi PM if she could agree a deal with Farage
    Kemi and Nigel would be like ferrets in a sack lol! 😂
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,692
    edited February 15
    Thelakes said:

    Leon Jock in Dallas said something very profound. "No one gives you power power is something you have to take" So it may need a strong man dictator tp abolish parliament and take power. Parliament is a pretty useless talking shop anyway.
    Are you volunteering @Leon to be said dictator, Lakes?
  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83
    I could see a scenario where Trump and Musk help a strong man dictator rise in this country. Most people lets face it are more interested in love island then democracy.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Why self-indulgent?
    See this from the BBC article:

    Posting on Instagram, she acknowledged travelling to the Iran, against Foreign Office advice, and to Pakistan was risky and "slightly scary".

    "Yes, we're aware of the risks," she wrote. "But we also know the rewards of meeting incredible people, hearing their stories, and seeing the breathtaking landscapes of these regions could far outweigh the fear."

  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83
    GIN1138 said:

    Are you volunteering @Leon to be said dictator, Lakes?
    Could do worse. At least he understands the issues.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,475

    Forcing someone to eat something they don't want to eat is surely the preserve of sadists. Your HR person isn't fit for the role.
    They had no idea that anyone could object. They had no idea of any issues with halal, either religious or ethical, when I talked to them.

    Just ignorant.

    I took the team to a Japanese resteraunt which offered a variety of things, including strict vegan. The chef was an artist - he did a dish with courgette that everyone agreed was top notch.

    You see, as it happened, there were no Muslims in that team. As team lead, I knew who drank and who didn’t, who could eat what.
  • Thelakes said:

    Could do worse. At least he understands the issues.
    You're new here, aren't you?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,475
    Thelakes said:

    I could see a scenario where Trump and Musk help a strong man dictator rise in this country. Most people lets face it are more interested in love island then democracy.

    (Adjusts monocle)

    You seemed dashed un-English. Are you one of those chaps who follows that perfect perisher Spode? Poor form, that.
  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83
    Intetestingly i can confirm cookies observations that Trump is pretty popular in the uk working classes but relatively loathed by the middle classes especially the public sector middle classes.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,546
    Cookie said:

    I find the creeping normalisation of halal a bit uncomfortable, to be honest. It strikes me as rather less humane a form if butchery than mught be ideal. Though I may be ill-informed here.
    Apologies for the clear whataboutery, but halal concerns me much less than the butchery that goes on in mass producing meat for our supermarkets.

    What does concern me is anyone from any background who feels so beholden to their cultural roots and/or beliefs that they cannot
    compromise when compromise is clearly needed.

    So in Malmesbury's vignette: HR were wrong for choosing a halal eatery for a culturally diverse team, the two team member who refused to eat there were wrong for equating a slightly ham-fisted attempt by HR to be culturally aware with cultural imperialism, and Malmesbury was definitely wrong for allowing HR to organise the curry.
  • ThelakesThelakes Posts: 83

    (Adjusts monocle)

    You seemed dashed un-English. Are you one of those chaps who follows that perfect perisher Spode? Poor form, that.
    If you were a typical example of englishness eg rowing club bore i would disavow my nationality.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,760
    rcs1000 said:

    Given Pulp is touring, then I thought this was appropriate to post:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b7DgOeMnW4

    Still brilliant. Can hardly believe its more than 16 years ago though.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Off-peak defence does not really work as a joke. Not here anyway. Maybe if we had some sort of weekdays-only national service it would fit, but we don't.

    The Matt cartoon you posted a couple of days back also did not work because we have no border with Russia.
    https://x.com/MattCartoonist/status/1890091766675644539

    Matt is probably our greatest cartoonist but either he is having an off week or he should stick to domestic whimsy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,914
    Dear god. Make it make sense

    BREAKING - Starmer hands another £12m in aid to Mauritius, run by Navin Ramgoolam’s Labour Party Government, despite huge Chagos surrender giveaway

    Telegraph
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,484
    Cookie said:

    I find the creeping normalisation of halal a bit uncomfortable, to be honest. It strikes me as rather less humane a form if butchery than mught be ideal. Though I may be ill-informed here.
    I believe the majority of the lamb you buy in the supermarket is halal. However, it has been electrically pre-stunned, and that is accepted by the majority of imams as it does not kill the animal (whereas captive bolt stunning often does)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,475
    maxh said:

    Apologies for the clear whataboutery, but halal concerns me much less than the butchery that goes on in mass producing meat for our supermarkets.

    What does concern me is anyone from any background who feels so beholden to their cultural roots and/or beliefs that they cannot
    compromise when compromise is clearly needed.

    So in Malmesbury's vignette: HR were wrong for choosing a halal eatery for a culturally diverse team, the two team member who refused to eat there were wrong for equating a slightly ham-fisted attempt by HR to be culturally aware with cultural imperialism, and Malmesbury was definitely wrong for allowing HR to organise the curry.
    I didn’t allow them. It was some kind of cost reduction policy (I *think*, was a long time back). Rather than let teams set their own entertainment, centralise it with The Experts.

    The two team members were offended by the idea of eating halal. As simple as that.

    Did they have the right to be offended?

    I must admit enjoying the idiots torpedoing themselves.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,752
    Carnyx said:

    Not even named after a royal by blood, was it?
    In a decade or seven, post global warming, it can be renamed "Not Snowed On".
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,484

    Are you saying Islamophobia's okay because you don't see it as 'racist' ?
    I would say that Islamophobia is OK because Islam is a religion and hence an ideology. It's no different to being a socialist-o-phobe or conservative-o-phobe. We are entitled to dislike ideologies we disagree with, and their proponents.

    But... of course most Muslims are members of non-white ethnic minorities, so separating it out from racism is tricky
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,475

    Off-peak defence does not really work as a joke. Not here anyway. Maybe if we had some sort of weekdays-only national service it would fit, but we don't.

    The Matt cartoon you posted a couple of days back also did not work because we have no border with Russia.
    https://x.com/MattCartoonist/status/1890091766675644539

    Matt is probably our greatest cartoonist but either he is having an off week or he should stick to domestic whimsy.
    Any part of the country with a train service is aware of the concept of off peak.

    Countries have invaded other countries without sharing a border.

    There was a small country that did this on a worldwide basis for quite a while. Their whole business plan really. Can’t quite remember the name.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,692
    Leon said:

    Dear god. Make it make sense

    BREAKING - Starmer hands another £12m in aid to Mauritius, run by Navin Ramgoolam’s Labour Party Government, despite huge Chagos surrender giveaway

    Telegraph

    It does seem odd that SKS seems obsessed with giving money away to all and sundry.
  • Any part of the country with a train service is aware of the concept of off peak.

    Countries have invaded other countries without sharing a border.

    There was a small country that did this on a worldwide basis for quite a while. Their whole business plan really. Can’t quite remember the name.

    Cuba
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,026
    GIN1138 said:

    It does seem odd that SKS seems obsessed with giving money away to all and sundry.
    His problem is the UK voters will have their hands out...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,752
    edited February 15
    biggles said:

    I mean, I’m straight myself so can’t comment with 100% accuracy, but a visual inspection, combined with listening to his crap, would suggest the only way he could attract a woman would be to target a small minority through his cash.
    There are plenty of women down the MAGA rabbit hole, with plenty of them following the Trumpvangelical ideology of "woman as helpmate" and male headship. Trumpvangelical here being a Machiavellian / imo amoral subset of the American Christian Nationalist movement. I'd be genuinely interested to know how many maintain the ideology when Trump or another 'hero' has had his hand up their skirts.

    For example, Musk's current (self-alleged) baby-momma is Ashley St. Clair, a MAGA influencer, and controversialist - like a number of others.

    https://tnj.com/who-is-ashley-st-clair/

    Her book is called "Elephants Are Not Birds", and the blurb runs:

    BRAVE Books and Ashley St. Clair partnered to write "Elephants Are Not Birds," a Christian, Conservative children's book that tackles the topic of gender identity. In the book, children will learn that boys are not girls, and Elephants Are Not Birds.

    In every BRAVE Book, we partner with people of moral integrity, to teach complex Christian and Conservative values.

    Follow Kevin as he learns that even though he can sing, he is not a bird, even if Culture insists that he is. In the back of the book, there are fun games and discussion questions that will help instill the values taught in the story.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Elephants-Birds-Brave-Books-Ashley/dp/195555000X
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,283
    GIN1138 said:

    It does seem odd that SKS seems obsessed with giving money away to all and sundry.
    I could find a good home for a few million pounds.
This discussion has been closed.