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The great switch off – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516

    Starmer has managed to put out the perfect post, encapsulating his government in eight words. Vacuous, lacking in any thought or policy to achieve the end. Believing that if you can talk yourself into a recession (or close to one), you can talk yourself out of one.

    Keir Starmer @Keir_Starmer

    With my government, Britain is open for business.

    8:01 am · 28 Jan 2025
    ·
    318.9K Views

    PB Tories sure aren't the life and soul.

    Moan about Starmer talking the economy down, moan about him talking it up.

    Moan about too much borrowing, moan about measures to reduce it. WFA, moan. Employers NI, moan. VAT on private schools, moan. Tax non-doms, moan. Close IHT loopholes on farmland, moan.

    Moan about no plans for growth, moan about every growth initiative. Loosen Regs, moan. Free up pension schemes, moan. Carbon capture, moan. Closer to the EU, moan. More trade with China, moan.

    Moan moan moan moan moan. I hope you guys aren't like this irl.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,460

    Do you want to return to the top 1%? Of course you do, so long as your children will find themselves in that 1%.
    No, top 10% to 20% would be fine.

    Though of course the top 1% academically who went to university 150 years ago were not necessarily the richest 1%.

    For example many became Vicars or teachers while bankers and solicitors and business directors often didn't have degrees at all
  • Can I please challenge you on this "Rachel from accounts" thing. It is open and petty misogyny - you would not have referred to "Kwazi from Accounts" or "Rishi from Accounts" or "Gordon from Accounts"

    She is the Chancellor of the Exchequer and she's a woman. Feel free to consider that she is doing a poor job - that's fair. But "Rachel from accounts" is attacking her for her crime of being a woman. Please stop. You are better than than even if so many Tories and right wing commentators are not.
    If she wasn't stupid people wouldn't think she was stupid and so they wouldn't call her Rachel From Accounts. In fact the name exaggerates her abilities. If she doe have any qualifications in Economics, or A Level Sums that says more about the institution that gave her that qualififcation than it does about her.

    But whilst no-one doubts Starmer is the worst Prime Minister ever, Rachel has stiffer competition. There is a very amusing come snide section of Dick Crossman's diaries where he discusses the abilities of the then Chancellor Jim Callaghan. Of course the whole of those diaries are focussed on pointing out he would have been so much better a PM than Wilson. Which he probably would have been. I doubt there are many Diary writers in the present cabinet, just another minimum entry requirement for their jobs which they don't have.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,903

    This standing on cold wet football pitches as a parent - is this a modern thing?

    I played cub and scout football at the local pitch most Saturdays through many winters in 1970s and there wasn't a single parent there in support.
    I used to go and watch my son play cricket for the school but that was mainly because I love to watch cricket. Thankfully he didn't make the school football team.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    boulay said:

    It’s not remotely misogynistic- it’s a critique (rightly or wrongly) of a position within a company as a means to mock.

    For most people the image of. “Colin from accounts” or a “Rachel from accounts” is of a mid level back office functionary with very little or no influence on corporate matters and no wider business skills.

    There is a reason why the fast show had “Colin from accounts” as people can recognise a mid/low level character with little imagination and skill but a professional qualification.

    I have worked with many of these in companies I’ve worked for and there is a reason why they are mocked - whether it’s fair or unfair is a different matter.

    I would absolutely have lambasted EmRishi as “Rishi from accounts” if there was a perception he had only reached a low level finance role however, as he had a pretty high level financial career it would be a silly barb to level.

    Kwazi got loads of grief - called Kami-Kwasi - was that because he was one of those foreigners so we can apply a funny negative name or because he was holding the baby went it went tits up?

    John Major was mocked with his underpants - is that misandrist as men wear Y-fronts so we can mock him.

    Using the misogyny defence of RR is ridiculous and taking offence for someone else where that offence is unfounded.

    Defend her abilities and say people are wrong about them but don’t pull a sexism card to shut down a line of mockery.

    Yes, "Rachel from Accounts" perfectly encapsulates her

    Extraordinary mediocrity is what really marks out this government. It is like being governed by the most ludicorus bunch of middle managers in history. A bunch of senior librarians and deputy head teachers. County councillors who struggle with technology. Dweebs
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,000

    Immigration for the win/in your face France.

    Immigration to push UK population above France

    Number of people living in Britain is projected to hit 72.5m by 2032, entirely fuelled by a 4.9m increase in net migration


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/28/immigration-to-push-uk-population-above-france/

    "the number of people aged over 85 projected to nearly double to 3.3 million by 2047"

    If we think the care and NHS sectors are broken now or that we can manage them without further immigration we ain't see nothing yet.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,556
    Carnyx said:

    Thank you! It is a very long time since I read LotR ...
    You can break your fast as often as you please but it's somewhat underwhelming if it only lasted 30 minutes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    My younger son is 17 and has a few months left in education. Doesn't want to go to university but understandably has no clue what they want to do with their life (for you are young and life is long, and there is time to kill today...)

    I started a (currently very small) business last autumn with him in mind to build it (ecommerce). There's definitely something here, but it needs time and focus I don't have. He has the time, I have the business nous. Could be a good option for him, but he needs to want to graft.
    That’s awesome, good luck to him.

    What is undoubtedly coming down the line is an explosion of a hybrid work/study model, sustained by degree apprenticeships, Open University - type models, professional qualifications such as ACCA, PMP etc.

    Fewer kids want to be 21 and in £50k of debt unless they’re getting a top class degree that gets them straight into the City.

    It’s been said a hundred times before, but absolutely everything is being driven by the cost of housing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,780
    kinabalu said:

    PB Tories sure aren't the life and soul.

    Moan about Starmer talking the economy down, moan about him talking it up.

    Moan about too much borrowing, moan about measures to reduce it. WFA, moan. Employers NI, moan. VAT on private schools, moan. Tax non-doms, moan. Close IHT loopholes on farmland, moan.

    Moan about no plans for growth, moan about every growth initiative. Loosen Regs, moan. Free up pension schemes, moan. Carbon capture, moan. Closer to the EU, moan. More trade with China, moan.

    Moan moan moan moan moan. I hope you guys aren't like this irl.
    Yes.

    Such a contrast with PB Labour under a Conservative government.

    Who can forget the “PB Labour for National Optimism” drive? Collected enough to buy several cabbages for Liz Truss, IIRC.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,000
    boulay said:

    It’s not remotely misogynistic- it’s a critique (rightly or wrongly) of a position within a company as a means to mock.

    For most people the image of. “Colin from accounts” or a “Rachel from accounts” is of a mid level back office functionary with very little or no influence on corporate matters and no wider business skills.

    There is a reason why the fast show had “Colin from accounts” as people can recognise a mid/low level character with little imagination and skill but a professional qualification.

    I have worked with many of these in companies I’ve worked for and there is a reason why they are mocked - whether it’s fair or unfair is a different matter.

    I would absolutely have lambasted EmRishi as “Rishi from accounts” if there was a perception he had only reached a low level finance role however, as he had a pretty high level financial career it would be a silly barb to level.

    Kwazi got loads of grief - called Kami-Kwasi - was that because he was one of those foreigners so we can apply a funny negative name or because he was holding the baby went it went tits up?

    John Major was mocked with his underpants - is that misandrist as men wear Y-fronts so we can mock him.

    Using the misogyny defence of RR is ridiculous and taking offence for someone else where that offence is unfounded.

    Defend her abilities and say people are wrong about them but don’t pull a sexism card to shut down a line of mockery.

    Good defence. I can see it both ways. Probably err on the its "fair game" side but also confident that it is a phrase that will be latched onto by the misogynists so those using it persistently may get perceived that way as well.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,236
    Leon said:

    It's one of the joys of having them IN RETROSPECT

    When I was a parent to a young child, my experience was always: I hate parenting, I love *having parented*

    Yes it can be a challenge for narcissists.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,005
    algarkirk said:

    Yes. A massive culture change; a mixture of helicoptering, safeguarding, anxiously wanting to be part of your child's life, etc. As a child of the 1950s/60s, it would never have crossed my father's mind to have the smallest interest in whether, where and with whom I was doing any sport of any sort. That would seen really odd now, but it was fine and I still thinks it was fine.
    A lot of fathers would be working on a Saturday morning back in 50/60/70s I guess.

    There was no way my mother would have had time. There was a ton of housework and she worked during the week.

    As you say, a different world.

    Modern parents overdo it all imho and then say they are permanently exhausted.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    kamski said:

    Yes it can be a challenge for narcissists.
    You clearly met my late father
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,460

    Immigration for the win/in your face France.

    Immigration to push UK population above France

    Number of people living in Britain is projected to hit 72.5m by 2032, entirely fuelled by a 4.9m increase in net migration


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/28/immigration-to-push-uk-population-above-france/

    Despite France having a higher birthrate because the UK now has higher immigration than France
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,359
    For what it's worth, I've not used the 'Rachel from accounts' line but I think it's fair. Politicians get mocked all the time. Women want equality, and equality means also having the piss taken (just like the men).
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560

    Can I please challenge you on this "Rachel from accounts" thing. It is open and petty misogyny - you would not have referred to "Kwazi from Accounts" or "Rishi from Accounts" or "Gordon from Accounts"

    She is the Chancellor of the Exchequer and she's a woman. Feel free to consider that she is doing a poor job - that's fair. But "Rachel from accounts" is attacking her for her crime of being a woman. Please stop. You are better than than even if so many Tories and right wing commentators are not.
    BS.

    If any of them had embellished their career history in the same way she had, they'd absolutely have been liable to the nickname.
  • The Government could take more risk with public sector DB schemes, but leave private sector DB schemes unchanged. If the public sector schemes fail, the Government will then have to decide whether they bail out their own employees.
    I'm sorry, what she is proposing to do is just a version of what Robert Maxwell did. She, and any MP who votes in favour of this change should be personally liable, IN FULL even if that leaves them homeless and in a gutter somewhere. Their predecessors in the same seats for the same party were quick enough to say never again Robert Maxwell, and they were right.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,903

    If she wasn't stupid people wouldn't think she was stupid and so they wouldn't call her Rachel From Accounts. In fact the name exaggerates her abilities. If she doe have any qualifications in Economics, or A Level Sums that says more about the institution that gave her that qualififcation than it does about her.

    But whilst no-one doubts Starmer is the worst Prime Minister ever, Rachel has stiffer competition. There is a very amusing come snide section of Dick Crossman's diaries where he discusses the abilities of the then Chancellor Jim Callaghan. Of course the whole of those diaries are focussed on pointing out he would have been so much better a PM than Wilson. Which he probably would have been. I doubt there are many Diary writers in the present cabinet, just another minimum entry requirement for their jobs which they don't have.
    I loved reading the Crossman diaries at University. There was an almost charming lack of self knowledge when he speculated, time and again, that Wilson might have contrived how things turned out. It was hilarious. I could never make up my mind whether this showed insight or not but Wilson was very clearly running rings around the intellectual force that was Dick Crossman.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    DavidL said:

    Ok. I take the point. I did not mean it in a misogynistic way, its more a reflection on her CV as she has narrated it but I accept it could be seen that way.
    Nah, don't cave. It's not mysogynistic in any way, shape or form, and if people choose to see it that way, quite frankly it's a them problem.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,236
    Sandpit said:

    There’s definitely no funding for anyone who might write an academic paper, especially in the US, that suggests that the real societal problem is actually income and social class, rather than race.
    That's definitely bollocks.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257

    A lot of fathers would be working on a Saturday morning back in 50/60/70s I guess.

    There was no way my mother would have had time. There was a ton of housework and she worked during the week.

    As you say, a different world.

    Modern parents overdo it all imho and then say they are permanently exhausted.
    I remember once I was about 16 and I got talking about rugby with my Dad. We were both fans

    I mentioned that I enjoyed playing it at school level, but was unsure if I would continue into 6th Form (I didn't)

    He looked at me quite confused. He was unaware that I was in the school rugby team and had been so for the last four years, playing every Saturday throughout my school days (home and away, etc)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,460
    Sandpit said:

    That’s awesome, good luck to him.

    What is undoubtedly coming down the line is an explosion of a hybrid work/study model, sustained by degree apprenticeships, Open University - type models, professional qualifications such as ACCA, PMP etc.

    Fewer kids want to be 21 and in £50k of debt unless they’re getting a top class degree that gets them straight into the City.

    It’s been said a hundred times before, but absolutely everything is being driven by the cost of housing.
    Leave school at 18, stay in the North and Midlands or Wales, become an apprentice and plumber or electrician and you can probably buy a house at 25-30.

    Do a degree and get a job in London or the Home Counties and unless the job is in corporate law or finance or you have significant parental funds for a deposit you would be doing well to get a house by 40
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516

    You Conservatives of a certain shade (don't forget it was the enlightened John Major who amalgamated universities and polytechnics) are desperate for the majority to do modern apprenticeships and Boris Johnson to read Classics at Oxford.
    It's all very "in your place", isn't it.
  • If she wasn't stupid people wouldn't think she was stupid and so they wouldn't call her Rachel From Accounts. In fact the name exaggerates her abilities. If she doe have any qualifications in Economics, or A Level Sums that says more about the institution that gave her that qualififcation than it does about her.

    But whilst no-one doubts Starmer is the worst Prime Minister ever, Rachel has stiffer competition. There is a very amusing come snide section of Dick Crossman's diaries where he discusses the abilities of the then Chancellor Jim Callaghan. Of course the whole of those diaries are focussed on pointing out he would have been so much better a PM than Wilson. Which he probably would have been. I doubt there are many Diary writers in the present cabinet, just another minimum entry requirement for their jobs which they don't have.
    PPE at the University of Oxford and a Master's degree in Economics from the London School of Economics.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516
    Leon said:

    BORING POLL KLAXON

    YouGov
    @YouGov
    ·
    49m
    Latest YouGov Westminster voting intention (26-27 Jan)

    Lab: 27% (+1 from 20-21 Jan)
    Ref: 23% (-1)
    Con: 22% (=)
    Lib Dem: 14% (=)
    Green: 9% (=)
    SNP: 3% (=)

    That's it then. That's where it's settled.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    edited January 28
    kinabalu said:

    It's all very "in your place", isn't it.
    Only if you're a chippy working class northerner "made good" who still flinches when told he's holding his knife the wrong way
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,780
    kamski said:

    Yes it can be a challenge for narcissists.
    Though there is a serious point in there somewhere.

    The expectation that every single second of parenthood is a triumphal, joyous, life affirming moment, complete with background music, puts enormous pressure on parents.

    It’s been linked to depression and feelings of failure. Even suicides.

    Note to parents - it’s all right to feel that waking up 4 times a night to change nappies is a shit job. Because it is.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,469

    For what it's worth, I've not used the 'Rachel from accounts' line but I think it's fair. Politicians get mocked all the time. Women want equality, and equality means also having the piss taken (just like the men).

    It's unfortunate that she's the first female chancellor in the same way that it's bloody fortunate that Truss wasn't the first female PM.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,903
    Driver said:

    Nah, don't cave. It's not mysogynistic in any way, shape or form, and if people choose to see it that way, quite frankly it's a them problem.
    I thought about the arguments on both sides and I do not think it is clear cut but there is enough in @RochdalePioneers point for me to retire the phrase from my perspective. But knock yourself out.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257

    Though there is a serious point in there somewhere.

    The expectation that every single second of parenthood is a triumphal, joyous, life affirming moment, complete with background music, puts enormous pressure on parents.

    It’s been linked to depression and feelings of failure. Even suicides.

    Note to parents - it’s all right to feel that waking up 4 times a night to change nappies is a shit job. Because it is.
    Yes, it's total bollocks

    Having a baby is like Brexiting. It won't all be good. Some of it will be really bad, boring and painful, and it will restrict your life for many years. But on the whole most people don't regret it, and in retrospect you will remember and cherish the joys
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516

    Yes.

    Such a contrast with PB Labour under a Conservative government.

    Who can forget the “PB Labour for National Optimism” drive? Collected enough to buy several cabbages for Liz Truss, IIRC.
    Sure but they were a total shower and they'd been in for ages.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    MJW said:

    On topic, I can't see the WFA cut being much of an issue at the next election for two reasons - firstly rises in pensions under the triple lock will wipe out any losses or 'hardship' incurred. This is the toughest bit for the government - when people feel they've 'lost' something they were long told they deserved, even if it had become a bit of an absurdity, without the subsequent gains they get elsewhere. Each year it becomes less of a pressing issue and slips into "Oh, I didn't like it but the sky hasn't fallen in" territory.

    Secondly, are the Tories really going to go into the next election promising to restore a payment to wealthier pensioners that was a Brown accountancy trick to alleviate pensioner poverty without uprating? One that hasn't changed since 2001 - when it really was sizeable enough to make a big difference.

    No, thought not.

    Reform might well, but that may depend on whether they want to be seen as a credible government and have limited money for more important pet policies, or whether repeat their 2024 manifesto and its attempt to make Jeremy Corbyn look like a fiscal conservative.

    It doesn't need to be a direct issue to influence the way people see Labour, though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    DavidL said:

    I thought about the arguments on both sides and I do not think it is clear cut but there is enough in @RochdalePioneers point for me to retire the phrase from my perspective. But knock yourself out.
    I am now going to mention RACHEL FROM ACCOUNTS in every single comment
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,780
    kinabalu said:

    Sure but they were a total shower and they'd been in for ages.
    The whining started *before* Cameron & Clegg announced the coalition.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516
    Leon said:

    Only if you're a chippy working class northerner "made good" who still flinches when told he's holding his knife the wrong way
    The opposite actually. You haven't grasped the point.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    kinabalu said:

    PB Tories sure aren't the life and soul.

    Moan about Starmer talking the economy down, moan about him talking it up.

    Moan about too much borrowing, moan about measures to reduce it. WFA, moan. Employers NI, moan. VAT on private schools, moan. Tax non-doms, moan. Close IHT loopholes on farmland, moan.

    Moan about no plans for growth, moan about every growth initiative. Loosen Regs, moan. Free up pension schemes, moan. Carbon capture, moan. Closer to the EU, moan. More trade with China, moan.

    Moan moan moan moan moan. I hope you guys aren't like this irl.
    Now you see how you were seen for the last few years.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,355

    That rings true for me. Thank God those days are over. I'd almost managed to blot out the memories of endless hours stood in the freezing cold and pouring rain next to some godforsaken field on the edge of a disused industrial estate. That's if you were lucky. If unlucky, you'd be running the line having accidentally accepted the flag without thinking or having been finally shamed into the job. Then you'd be spending the next hour and a half also trying desperately to judge offsides and penalties on a pitch with barely discernable markings. Those of you with just daughters - consider yourselves blessed.
    Oh God yeah, running the line is hell, I avoid it like the plague and am only picked in extremis because the coach knows I'm hopeless at it.
    Plenty of girls play football too these days, although luckily my daughters don't - their thing was/is drama.
  • DavidL said:

    I thought about the arguments on both sides and I do not think it is clear cut but there is enough in @RochdalePioneers point for me to retire the phrase from my perspective. But knock yourself out.
    I don't like the use of derogatory names for any politicians. The more fun we poke at politicians, the fewer people want to become politicians and the worse our politicians get. It chips away at democracy. No wonder Trump's such a fan.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,937
    edited January 28

    PPE at the University of Oxford and a Master's degree in Economics from the London School of Economics.
    You can't really ask for much more. The CofE is ultimately a political position, and that's why Osborne/Brown etc never got this kind of nonsense despite their backgrounds. If Reeves has a weakness, it's her politics not her economics.

    It does have a whiff of sexism about it.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560

    For what it's worth, I've not used the 'Rachel from accounts' line but I think it's fair. Politicians get mocked all the time. Women want equality, and equality means also having the piss taken (just like the men).

    Indeed. I haven't (AFAIR) used it either but it's absolutely within the realm of legitimate mockery, and the only sexist is the one trying to shut down criticism because she's a woman so different standards should apply.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516
    Driver said:

    Nah, don't cave. It's not mysogynistic in any way, shape or form, and if people choose to see it that way, quite frankly it's a them problem.
    It's misogynistic if meant misogynistically.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    kinabalu said:

    The opposite actually. You haven't grasped the point.
    You have deep status anxiety. To be fair you generally hide it well. But it occasionally observable

    It’s also perfectly understandable
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,236

    Though there is a serious point in there somewhere.

    The expectation that every single second of parenthood is a triumphal, joyous, life affirming moment, complete with background music, puts enormous pressure on parents.

    It’s been linked to depression and feelings of failure. Even suicides.

    Note to parents - it’s all right to feel that waking up 4 times a night to change nappies is a shit job. Because it is.
    Yes, I was making an uncalled-for joke. Anyone not having a great time as a parent of young child(ren), or even older children, should at least know that it's pretty common to feel that way a lot of the time. Personally, I did love it a lot of the time (but I did have the luxury of not having to work for a while)- I'm finding the thought of my son becoming an adolescent soon more challenging.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,097
    edited January 28
    kinabalu said:

    I think there's a tendency for people to believe that Radical Tech will destroy the things they dislike. In this case, for you, Universities which you don't like because they are incubators of progressive values. I'm trying to be more objective. Apply logic rather wishful thinking. Ask not what I want to happen but what is likely to happen.

    So in this vein, the main thing I foresee is the total collapse of the far right. Why? Because it won't be too long before the combination of AI and VR means you'll be able to wear e-contacts allowing you to transform your immediate environment. In particular a "no foreign" or "get your country back" setting which will make everything look nice and normal, turn mosques into churches, burkas into dresses, hijabs into baseball caps, etc.

    Imagine the political impact of that. Why would anybody feel the need to vote for far right parties when they can simply pop that tech on every time they leave the house and the problem is sorted? The answer is they won't. It's game over for the far right populists. If I were them I'd be thinking urgently about retraining and a change of career.
    I think the opposite will happen in the sense that people are going to finally get fed up with using technology all the time, staring at a screen for a large part of the day.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,355
    algarkirk said:

    Yes. A massive culture change; a mixture of helicoptering, safeguarding, anxiously wanting to be part of your child's life, etc. As a child of the 1950s/60s, it would never have crossed my father's mind to have the smallest interest in whether, where and with whom I was doing any sport of any sort. That would seen really odd now, but it was fine and I still thinks it was fine.
    It's fine to not go and watch, plenty of parents don't. I try to go every week. My son is 15 and is generally a good kid who works hard and does well at school, but occasionally he does something stupid and is at an impressionable age so I think it's good for him to know his dad has a close interest in his life and values something he is doing enough to give up 3 hours every Sunday and drive him to wet fields in SE London and watch him doing something he loves. Also, I sometimes feel a bit less connected to him than to his sisters, I'm not totally sure why, and I think watching him play football - something he is passionate about - helps to bring us closer. My kids are the most important thing in my life and my greatest rresponsibility, end of story.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,917
    Battlebus said:

    Coming back to the issue of babies and why the domestic population trying to have them in the UK is difficult, look at Household wealth statistics

    Median wealth (2022) was about £300K made up of property (40%), Private Pensions (35%), Net Wealth (14%) and Physical Wealth (10%). So if you want to save for a home, or a pension and you have some student debt, the chances of you being able to afford children means hard choices.

    Alternatively if you are a single mum on benefits, you are limited to 2 children (and a financial cap) if you go beyond that.

    So if you don't like migration you have to have some serious discussions about the child bearing barriers in the UK.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/totalwealthingreatbritain/april2020tomarch2022

    ...which ties in with my rant that "GDP growth" is not a good metric to judge progress, it's "net household income". If the country grows but the individual cannot pay the bills that's bad, and if the individual cannot have children that's lethal.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516
    Leon said:

    1. I don't recall you doing a lot of jubilant whooping during the long 14 years of Tory rule? In fact I recall you doing quite a lot of moaning

    2. This government really is inexpressibly shite. But we do our best to express it
    I'm calm and fair. Eg I gave Cameron a chance, and May, and Sunak. Johnson and Truss, less so for obvious reasons. One was a charlatan, the other a nutcase.

    The abuse from Tories heaped on this Labour government is irrational and wildly OTT. It's because there hasn't been one for so long. It's seen as an affront.

    You especially ought to put a sock in it. You voted for this. So, ok, now you're getting it.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,236
    Leon said:

    I remember once I was about 16 and I got talking about rugby with my Dad. We were both fans

    I mentioned that I enjoyed playing it at school level, but was unsure if I would continue into 6th Form (I didn't)

    He looked at me quite confused. He was unaware that I was in the school rugby team and had been so for the last four years, playing every Saturday throughout my school days (home and away, etc)
    I can relate to that. Not the rugby, which I've never played in my life. But my Dad's apparent lack of awareness of or interest in anything I was doing. As a father myself now, I find it even harder to understand.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,460
    Eabhal said:

    You can't really ask for much more. The CofE is ultimately a political position, and that's why Osborne/Brown etc never got this kind of nonsense despite their backgrounds. If Reeves has a weakness, it's her politics not her economics.

    It does have a whiff of sexism about it.
    Her weakness is her lack of political skill not her political views
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,722
    edited January 28
    I'm glad this is being reinvestigated. It seemed strange to me at the time that the police had apparently simply accepted her story that she'd had an epileptic fit (the first in her life) and couldn't remember anything. Odds that she was on her phone?

    Driver rearrested over girls' school crash deaths
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,097
    Imagine if a newspaper ran a headline saying "Everyone's smoking cigarettes, but is it really an addiction?"

    "Everyone is on their phones.
    But is it really phone addiction we’re experiencing?"

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/ng-interactive/2024/jan/03/what-is-phone-addiction-definition-science-debate
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    Fucksake. Dark at 7pm. I dare say

    RACHEL FROM ACCOUNTS
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,948
    kinabalu said:

    That's it then. That's where it's settled.
    Lab and Con at their floors. And Reform at their ceiling? But "settled", not so sure about that.

    When people seriously want Labour out then the Tories will start recovering. But some time to go before that.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,236
    Leon said:

    Yes, it's total bollocks

    Having a baby is like Brexiting. It won't all be good. Some of it will be really bad, boring and painful, and it will restrict your life for many years. But on the whole most people don't regret it, and in retrospect you will remember and cherish the joys
    You are the only person I've heard of who looks back and 'cherishes the joys' of Brexit!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516
    Andy_JS said:

    I think the opposite will happen in the sense that people are going to finally get fed up with using technology all the time, staring at a screen for a large part of the day.
    Yes, maybe so. A computer screen is so tiny compared to everything else around you. It's odd to focus such a large chunk of your attention on it.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Imagine if a newspaper ran a headline saying "Everyone's smoking cigarettes, but is it really an addiction?"

    "Everyone is on their phones.
    But is it really phone addiction we’re experiencing?"

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/ng-interactive/2024/jan/03/what-is-phone-addiction-definition-science-debate

    Stupid analogy.

    You using a phone isn’t going to give me cancer.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,804
    kamski said:

    You are the only person I've heard of who looks back and 'cherishes the joys' of Brexit!
    Early days yet for all that. Brexit is like having a baby. The first 30 years are the worst. After that it's not too bad.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,418
    Driver said:

    Now you see how you were seen for the last few years.
    naah naah naah naah naah.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,414

    Stupid analogy.

    You using a phone isn’t going to give me cancer.
    You don't buy into 5G scare then?
  • You don't buy into 5G scare then?
    Nah, it only gets spread by non Apple devices, Apple for the win, again.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,780

    Stupid analogy.

    You using a phone isn’t going to give me cancer.
    Secondary effects of social media include people trying to set fire to immigrants and then being puzzled as to why people think they are a bit Racialist.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,236
    algarkirk said:

    Early days yet for all that. Brexit is like having a baby. The first 30 years are the worst. After that it's not too bad.
    Good point. Plus when I think about it, the summer of 2016, those wonderful days when the worst thing to worry about was bloody brexit, before bloody Trump became president for the first time, before bloody Covid, before bloody Putin invaded the rest of Ukraine.

    In the words of the poet:
    Oh what fun we had
    But at the time it seemed so bad
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516
    Leon said:

    You have deep status anxiety. To be fair you generally hide it well. But it occasionally observable

    It’s also perfectly understandable
    Hmm, no that is genuinely off the mark. I do have deep anxieties but they are not around that.

    Course I'm not keen on over-confident, self-regarding poshos, but who on earth is.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,165

    Immigration for the win/in your face France.

    Immigration to push UK population above France

    Number of people living in Britain is projected to hit 72.5m by 2032, entirely fuelled by a 4.9m increase in net migration


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/01/28/immigration-to-push-uk-population-above-france/

    I'll go move to France to help out with their numbers
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,236

    Stupid analogy.

    You using a phone isn’t going to give me cancer.
    so only things that give other people cancer are an addiction??
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,844
    ...
    Leon said:

    I remember once I was about 16 and I got talking about rugby with my Dad. We were both fans

    I mentioned that I enjoyed playing it at school level, but was unsure if I would continue into 6th Form (I didn't)

    He looked at me quite confused. He was unaware that I was in the school rugby team and had been so for the last four years, playing every Saturday throughout my school days (home and away, etc)
    So you got f***in' hammered by Luctonians too.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,780
    CatMan said:

    I'll go move to France to help out with their numbers
    Perhaps we should send a whole bunch of people over there. To help reform the governmental structure.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,929
    kinabalu said:

    PB Tories sure aren't the life and soul.

    Moan about Starmer talking the economy down, moan about him talking it up.

    Moan about too much borrowing, moan about measures to reduce it. WFA, moan. Employers NI, moan. VAT on private schools, moan. Tax non-doms, moan. Close IHT loopholes on farmland, moan.

    Moan about no plans for growth, moan about every growth initiative. Loosen Regs, moan. Free up pension schemes, moan. Carbon capture, moan. Closer to the EU, moan. More trade with China, moan.

    Moan moan moan moan moan. I hope you guys aren't like this irl.
    Might go and watch "Threads" later this evening. Cheer myself up.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,917

    Stupid analogy.

    You using a phone isn’t going to give me cancer.
    It's an analogy, not an identity. The point was that cigarette addiction is indicated by constant use and difficulty in coping without. Andy was saying that constant phone use and difficulty in coping without phones similarly indicated addiction.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,000

    Stupid analogy.

    You using a phone isn’t going to give me cancer.
    Gives you President Trump though.....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,804
    Andy_JS said:

    Imagine if a newspaper ran a headline saying "Everyone's smoking cigarettes, but is it really an addiction?"

    "Everyone is on their phones.
    But is it really phone addiction we’re experiencing?"

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/ng-interactive/2024/jan/03/what-is-phone-addiction-definition-science-debate

    Whether a thing is medicalised as 'addiction' or indeed anyone else is not a neutral process. Any strict criteria as between 'normal' 'medical' 'criminal' 'a matter of willpower' 'inappropriate' and so on are going to be artificial and also inconsistently applied.

    Weight is a recent and developing example where it is tending to move from the 'willpower' category to the 'medical' one.

    The Southport case comes to mind. To most modern fairly secular non professionals the defendant has to be 'mad' 'insane' or whatever because it is not imaginable to us (me) that a sane person cab do it. It just isn't close to what 'sane' can look like.

    But to the medical and criminal system he is fine. Nothing wrong with him. I am not convinced.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,287
    eek said:

    Her weakness is her lack of political skill not her political views
    The weakness is the lack of substantive ideas, viable plans, and ability to execute them. I honestly find it amazing how bad Labour have been so far. Given how much they were banging on about growth before being elected I really expected a lot more from them.

    It's like the Labour Party have promised us a sumptuous feast, and told us about what great cooks they are. We have been licking our lips in anticipation of the wonderous meal they are preparing. Then Reeves comes in with beans on toast and we rightly say "that's it?!"

    And you know not only do Labour need to achieve above trend growth to balance the books, a tall order in itself, but if they fail democracy may be on the line if some loonies like Reform get in as a result.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    kinabalu said:

    I'm calm and fair. Eg I gave Cameron a chance, and May, and Sunak. Johnson and Truss, less so for obvious reasons. One was a charlatan, the other a nutcase.

    The abuse from Tories heaped on this Labour government is irrational and wildly OTT. It's because there hasn't been one for so long. It's seen as an affront.

    You especially ought to put a sock in it. You voted for this. So, ok, now you're getting it.
    I voted for them mainly to discomfort you

    I mean, the twat Keir was bound to win in my constituency, bound to win overall, and bound to put RACHEL FROM ACCOUNTS in Number 11, so I thought: This is all quite grim, what can I do, I know I’ll vote for Labour because it might slightly annoy that @kinabalu off of PB, thereby affording me some tiny tiny rancid shred of Schadenfreudian pleasure, so at least there will be a trivial and nasty positive

    So in a very real sense this is all your fault. Own it
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516
    Driver said:

    Now you see how you were seen for the last few years.
    Me? No way. I was never like this. Just go and read all my posts for the last 7 years if you don't believe me. They're all there. My profile isn't private.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,788

    Though there is a serious point in there somewhere.

    The expectation that every single second of parenthood is a triumphal, joyous, life affirming moment, complete with background music, puts enormous pressure on parents.

    It’s been linked to depression and feelings of failure. Even suicides.

    Note to parents - it’s all right to feel that waking up 4 times a night to change nappies is a shit job. Because it is.
    It's certainly not ideal for the selfish.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,844
    kamski said:

    You are the only person I've heard of who looks back and 'cherishes the joys' of Brexit!
    After he left lockdown Penarth in 2020 he's only been in Blighty for approximately 3 days, so of course he can say that.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,975
    Leon said:

    Yes, "Rachel from Accounts" perfectly encapsulates her

    Extraordinary mediocrity is what really marks out this government. It is like being governed by the most ludicorus bunch of middle managers in history. A bunch of senior librarians and deputy head teachers. County councillors who struggle with technology. Dweebs
    And yet they’re still better than the previous Tory government. How embarrassing
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    kinabalu said:

    Yes, maybe so. A computer screen is so tiny compared to everything else around you. It's odd to focus such a large chunk of your attention on it.
    Screens are on the way out

    Soon we will all have spectacles (or even contact lenses) on which a screen will be projected - but translucent (if you want) - you will open your eyes and all this info will be hovering in front of you

    Thereby freeing up your hands and ending the absurd stoop of early 21st century humans, hunched over smartphones

    This tech exists now and is getting better, it is not some sci fi dream. PB can thank me later for keeping everyone abreast
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,788
    Leon said:

    Yes, it's total bollocks

    Having a baby is like Brexiting. It won't all be good. Some of it will be really bad, boring and painful, and it will restrict your life for many years. But on the whole most people don't regret it, and in retrospect you will remember and cherish the joys
    How would you know, having absented yourself form large parts of both processes ?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516

    The whining started *before* Cameron & Clegg announced the coalition.
    Not from me. I specifically recall thinking, Ok, guess it is time for a change and they don't seem *too* terrible for Tories. I'll survive.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,804
    kamski said:

    Good point. Plus when I think about it, the summer of 2016, those wonderful days when the worst thing to worry about was bloody brexit, before bloody Trump became president for the first time, before bloody Covid, before bloody Putin invaded the rest of Ukraine.

    In the words of the poet:
    Oh what fun we had
    But at the time it seemed so bad
    I am 70 and have lived through revolutions, which don't all seem so at the time. The sexual revolution (Larkin's 1963); Islamification; computers; EU and end of cold war; internet and smartphones - than which the world has never seen anything like; but right now in very short order we have TrumpUkraineGazaBrexit which feels too much too quickly. With AI to come.

    Won't be dull.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,418
    HYUFD said:

    No, top 10% to 20% would be fine.

    Though of course the top 1% academically who went to university 150 years ago were not necessarily the richest 1%.

    For example many became Vicars or teachers while bankers and solicitors and business directors often didn't have degrees at all
    I always thought the Clergy were usually the youngest sons who never inherited anything. Also teaching wasn't a graduate profession except in the public schools etc.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,414
    Nigelb said:

    It's certainly not ideal for the selfish.
    Its not about being selfish. Life is just better when you've had a decent sleep. Sunday night our son was unaccountably awake in the middle of the night and wouldn't sleep anywhere other than our bed. Poor night of broken sleep. Parents grumpy. Shit journey into work (roadworks added to roadworks so 30 minute trip is now 90.)

    Last night - unbroken sleep, worse journey to work but didn't feel anything like as grumpy.

    Love him to bits but not so much at 2 am.
  • Leon said:

    Screens are on the way out

    Soon we will all have spectacles (or even contact lenses) on which a screen will be projected - but translucent (if you want) - you will open your eyes and all this info will be hovering in front of you

    Thereby freeing up your hands and ending the absurd stoop of early 21st century humans, hunched over smartphones

    This tech exists now and is getting better, it is not some sci fi dream. PB can thank me later for keeping everyone abreast
    Like Google Glass, you mean?
  • One for Kinabalu.

    Thanks to this government, Britain's oldest racing car manufacturer (a British, profitable, well run business, with pipeline investment) has had to put all their new vehicle plans on hold, costing jobs there and throughout the chain in the UK, along with the government losing the taxes the investment would have provided.

    Suspect all other niche motor companies, that we thrive with, will be thinking the same

    Why don't you tell them to stop moaning from the comfort of your retirement chair? Real life impacts, clearly not open for business.

    I'll let you get back to your life and soul of tea and dunking biscuits and bad takes.

    Lawrence Whittaker
    @ListerLawrence
    A statement from the Lister Motor Company.

    https://x.com/ListerLawrence/status/1884190555015635225

  • TazTaz Posts: 17,096

    Lab and Con at their floors. And Reform at their ceiling? But "settled", not so sure about that.

    When people seriously want Labour out then the Tories will start recovering. But some time to go before that.

    Yes, I think that is it and I do think, for as poor as this govt has been so far (and there are signs they are getting it) they still have some goodwill out there and can turn it around unlike the Tories who were fatally wounded after the Sunak succession.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    Nigelb said:

    How would you know, having absented yourself form large parts of both processes ?
    I was there for the important bit. That initial jolt of orgasmic pleasure

    I will never forget my joy when David Dimblebimblebimbleby said

    “That’s it. We’re out!”

    Ahhh…….. and what makes it better is that we’re never going back in, LOSER

    Also, RACHEL FROM ACCOUNTS
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,804
    edited January 28

    I always thought the Clergy were usually the youngest sons who never inherited anything. Also teaching wasn't a graduate profession except in the public schools etc.
    Grammar school teachers were mostly graduate. The clergy have never been and still are not all graduate. In former times there was a huge distinction between the clergy graduate class with connections and those without, especially non grads. The actual annual stipend could vary from several thousand (ie several hundred thousand today) to £50, ie £5000 today. Trollope is good on this.
  • I may use that Farage photo in the next thread.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,516
    Leon said:

    Screens are on the way out

    Soon we will all have spectacles (or even contact lenses) on which a screen will be projected - but translucent (if you want) - you will open your eyes and all this info will be hovering in front of you

    Thereby freeing up your hands and ending the absurd stoop of early 21st century humans, hunched over smartphones

    This tech exists now and is getting better, it is not some sci fi dream. PB can thank me later for keeping everyone abreast
    Yep, e-contacts with VR functionality. Dizzying possibilities. When that train pulls out of the station there'll be no going back. I just hope there'll be a robust regulatory framework which probably means a Labour government.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    algarkirk said:

    Whether a thing is medicalised as 'addiction' or indeed anyone else is not a neutral process. Any strict criteria as between 'normal' 'medical' 'criminal' 'a matter of willpower' 'inappropriate' and so on are going to be artificial and also inconsistently applied.

    Weight is a recent and developing example where it is tending to move from the 'willpower' category to the 'medical' one.

    The Southport case comes to mind. To most modern fairly secular non professionals the defendant has to be 'mad' 'insane' or whatever because it is not imaginable to us (me) that a sane person cab do it. It just isn't close to what 'sane' can look like.

    But to the medical and criminal system he is fine. Nothing wrong with him. I am not convinced.
    Does anyone get sent to Broadmoor or Carstairs any more?

    Last week’s case would likely have been sent there a decade or two ago.

    (I grew up close to Broadmoor, they used to test the escape siren every week and you could hear it from miles away).
  • Just a reminder.

    If you keep on repeating the same phrase over and over again in your posts then the spam trap thinks you’re a spammer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,844

    I may use that Farage photo in the next thread.

    After that teaser we will ALL be very disappointed if you don't.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,788
    Leon said:

    I was there for the important bit. That initial jolt of orgasmic pleasure

    I will never forget my joy when David Dimblebimblebimbleby said

    “That’s it. We’re out!”

    Ahhh…….. and what makes it better is that we’re never going back in, LOSER

    Also, RACHEL FROM ACCOUNTS
    A bit like voting Labour for the first time, then.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,804
    Sandpit said:

    Does anyone get sent to Broadmoor or Carstairs any more?

    Last week’s case would likely have been sent there a decade or two ago.

    (I grew up close to Broadmoor, they used to test the escape siren every week and you could hear it from miles away).
    Yes. Both. Went past Carstairs just recently. Lots there. It's just that there are also thousands in the prison system who in ordinary lingo are insane.
  • After that teaser we will ALL be very disappointed if you don't.
    I only use it when someone on PB has annoyed me.

    It’s the ultimate collective punishment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,788
    edited January 28

    Its not about being selfish. Life is just better when you've had a decent sleep. Sunday night our son was unaccountably awake in the middle of the night and wouldn't sleep anywhere other than our bed. Poor night of broken sleep. Parents grumpy. Shit journey into work (roadworks added to roadworks so 30 minute trip is now 90.)

    Last night - unbroken sleep, worse journey to work but didn't feel anything like as grumpy.

    Love him to bits but not so much at 2 am.
    As I said, it's not for the selfish, since many just won't handle the pain.

    (My first didn't sleep through the night for well over two years.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,257
    kinabalu said:

    Yep, e-contacts with VR functionality. Dizzying possibilities. When that train pulls out of the station there'll be no going back. I just hope there'll be a robust regulatory framework which probably means a Labour government.
    It is genuinely exciting, and it is now almost certain to happen

    One of the ways I cope with this dismal Labour government - following several Tory governments which were very nearly as bad (and in some ways worse, looking at you Boris “Boriswave” Johnson) - and also the shambolic state of my country (which I do love, despite being absent 90% of the time) - is by consoling myself that none of this matters. We are about to enter an era where change will come so fast and so profoundly it’s going to render all our arguments completely pointless and laughably insignificant

This discussion has been closed.