The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
Really? My most vivid memory of Brexit PB was an erstwhile poster called seanT going around screaming 'traitor' at everyone in the most hysterical manner. And he was (at least at the time) a diehard Leaver.
Leon, Casino and Max are three of the most hysterical and intemperate posters on here. They routinely call for what would amount to a form of dictatorship if taken literally.
Leon of course is mostly very entertaining - especially since the photo and AI bans - and all three make very very valid points quite regularly, in between screams of treachery and calls for their political enemies to be imprisoned if not executed.
I’m not sure what to call this “style”.
I would be outraged if I were William Glenn and I had been missed off that list.
William is never hysterical or intemperate, but also never makes valid points. As far as I can tell he is openly in favour of some kind of totalitarian rule.
Musk is an absolute fuckwit, and a danger to the civilised world.
If he had said this about the Tories we'd never hear the end of it on here.
I hope you note that I am criticising him about it. I hope I'd do it about any UK politician subjected to such unwarranted comments...?
The sad thing is that people still seem to worship him. Any good he's done in the past is far outweighed by the stuff he's done over the last five or so years. And he's getting worse.
Musk is an absolute fuckwit, and a danger to the civilised world.
If he had said this about the Tories we'd never hear the end of it on here.
I hope you note that I am criticising him about it. I hope I'd do it about any UK politician subjected to such unwarranted comments...?
The sad thing is that people still seem to worship him. Any good he's done in the past is far outweighed by the stuff he's done over the last five or so years. And he's getting worse.
I did very well out of my Tesla stock but I sold it when he started going down the rabbit hole.
He's been totally and inescapably radicalised. Which is not great - but he's now able to make millions of people see this bile.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
We’re not far from ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ on this.
Musk is an absolute fuckwit, and a danger to the civilised world.
If he had said this about the Tories we'd never hear the end of it on here.
I hope you note that I am criticising him about it. I hope I'd do it about any UK politician subjected to such unwarranted comments...?
The sad thing is that people still seem to worship him. Any good he's done in the past is far outweighed by the stuff he's done over the last five or so years. And he's getting worse.
I did very well out of my Tesla stock but I sold it when he started going down the rabbit hole.
He's been totally and inescapably radicalised. Which is not great - but he's now able to make millions of people see this bile.
I just don't know what we do about it.
We regulate social media is what we do.
The very rich are often quite insane - to be a billionaire is not the normal condition for a human - but what’s frighteningly new is the ability via Twitter/X to destabilise a democratically elected government.
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Which is fair, what's very worrying is that Europe (and I include Labour's UK in this) is become a retirement home for people who have found success elsewhere in the world because it is now actively hostile to wealth creation. The welfare states across Europe have created an entitlement culture and people think they are owed wealth transfers from successful people whether that's directly in the form of cash benefits or indirectly in the form of healthcare/education/state employment etc...
I don't know what the solution to this is, but the entitlement culture across Europe is bankrupting the continent, the UK included and it's become a negative spiral as we're having to increase tax to pay for it which further harms economic growth and the tax base and eventually we turn into Argentina.
Argentina isn't the plausible end point for European economies. The main causes of Argentina's economic decline were protectionist trade policies, a tolerance of high inflation, and a highly polarized society that led to alternating periods of populism and dictatorship. There was also excessive government intervention but to an extent that makes the EU look like a laissez-faire paradise. Meanwhile, the EU champions free trade internally and (to a lesser extent) externally, has a consensual and democratic governance model, and an independent central bank committed to low inflation. I would say that the US is more likely to end up like Argentina, if the Trump administration turns out to be the start of a process rather than an aberration. Us too, if Trumpian ideas gain a toehold here.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
We’re not far from ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ on this.
The original poster said nothing of the sort. Get a grip.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
"Wanting to damage..."
So you are willing to use lies and mistruths (such as Musk's tweet below) just so you can damage someone you don't like?
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Which is fair, what's very worrying is that Europe (and I include Labour's UK in this) is become a retirement home for people who have found success elsewhere in the world because it is now actively hostile to wealth creation. The welfare states across Europe have created an entitlement culture and people think they are owed wealth transfers from successful people whether that's directly in the form of cash benefits or indirectly in the form of healthcare/education/state employment etc...
I don't know what the solution to this is, but the entitlement culture across Europe is bankrupting the continent, the UK included and it's become a negative spiral as we're having to increase tax to pay for it which further harms economic growth and the tax base and eventually we turn into Argentina.
I agree with all of this.
As ever the refrain I hear from American business people is very true - America innovated and Europe regulates. I think without the UK in the EU it's worse than ever, the regulations are stifling for EU companies now that there's no significant free market voice at the top table. I'm extremely worried that Starmer will sell out the nation to the EU which I hope that the next government will just undo on day one.
I just don’t know where we draw the line on free speech.
Elon Musk calling Jess Phillips a rape gang supporter is surely beyond the pale.
Would he have been able to have that amplified or made that note if he didn’t own Twitter? It’s very worrying that people can just buy the ability to shout the loudest now.
You are muddling up things.
I haven’t seen what Musk called Phillips but it sounds unpleasant. But free speech is absolutely the right to be unpleasant.
Phillips has the right to rely on the protections of the courts if she has been libelled - it’s not my area of technical expertise but very happy to accept that needs reform to protect against billionaires using money as a shield.
Social media is corrosive and needs regulation. But, again, that’s different to restricting free speech - and I think unhelpful to conflate the two (that’s what the defenders of the status quo do)
Yes, absolutely. How would you regulate it?
It’s the great question confronting democracies at present. Nobody seems anywhere near defining a regime which manages to reduce the real harms of social media.
Economics.
The issue is that the algorithm drives people towards extreme perspectives. That’s the problem rather than simply the normal rough and tumble of people posting crap. If it wasn’t amplified the most people wouldn’t see it.
So eliminate the economic incentive (people engage more with stuff that makes them angry and engagement drives usage drives advertising dollars).
Regulate it like a utility with a fixed return on capital employed. (And for the avoidance of doubt capital employed is not the same as Musk’s purchase price)
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Which is fair, what's very worrying is that Europe (and I include Labour's UK in this) is become a retirement home for people who have found success elsewhere in the world because it is now actively hostile to wealth creation. The welfare states across Europe have created an entitlement culture and people think they are owed wealth transfers from successful people whether that's directly in the form of cash benefits or indirectly in the form of healthcare/education/state employment etc...
I don't know what the solution to this is, but the entitlement culture across Europe is bankrupting the continent, the UK included and it's become a negative spiral as we're having to increase tax to pay for it which further harms economic growth and the tax base and eventually we turn into Argentina.
I agree with all of this.
As ever the refrain I hear from American business people is very true - America innovated and Europe regulates. I think without the UK in the EU it's worse than ever, the regulations are stifling for EU companies now that there's no significant free market voice at the top table. I'm extremely worried that Starmer will sell out the nation to the EU which I hope that the next government will just undo on day one.
Beware of Americans high on their own supply!
Americans have never been entirely and increasingly are less (see OnlyLivingBoy’s post) “free market”.
Musk is an absolute fuckwit, and a danger to the civilised world.
Nigel and Kemi need to reign Elon in over all this. (There are stories afoot that they're already trying.) It's so OTT that I can see Labour getting a polling boost as hitherto neutrals rally around Sir Keir in an act of solidarity.
Musk is an absolute fuckwit, and a danger to the civilised world.
Nigel and Kemi need to reign Elon in over all this. (There are stories afoot that they're already trying.) It's so OTT that I can see Labour getting a polling boost as hitherto neutrals rally around Sir Keir in an act of solidarity.
I doubt it, most of the voters who have switched from Labour to Reform since last July are white working class Leavers who largely agree with much of what Musk says.
It might switch a few middle class ex Conservative Reform voters back to the Tories though if Farage gets too close to Musk and Robinson, hence Farage trying to distance himself now
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Which is fair, what's very worrying is that Europe (and I include Labour's UK in this) is become a retirement home for people who have found success elsewhere in the world because it is now actively hostile to wealth creation. The welfare states across Europe have created an entitlement culture and people think they are owed wealth transfers from successful people whether that's directly in the form of cash benefits or indirectly in the form of healthcare/education/state employment etc...
I don't know what the solution to this is, but the entitlement culture across Europe is bankrupting the continent, the UK included and it's become a negative spiral as we're having to increase tax to pay for it which further harms economic growth and the tax base and eventually we turn into Argentina.
I agree with all of this.
As ever the refrain I hear from American business people is very true - America innovated and Europe regulates. I think without the UK in the EU it's worse than ever, the regulations are stifling for EU companies now that there's no significant free market voice at the top table. I'm extremely worried that Starmer will sell out the nation to the EU which I hope that the next government will just undo on day one.
Beware of Americans high on their own supply!
Americans have never been entirely and increasingly are less (see OnlyLivingBoy’s post) “free market”.
My experience of this is in finance and AI, two areas where the US approach has been significantly better than the EU approach. The EU has completely destroyed AI development across Europe, the rats have all left the sinking ship and come to the UK or gone over to the US. In finance their regulatory "innovations" have been counterproductive at every turn and made Europe less competitive. Our own regulations are also pretty awful as well so there's no triumphalism here just pointing out that I don't think there's any chance if what OLB saying actually happening. The US economy has an innate ability to right itself and bring in necessary talent and create wealth.
I think the best way I can put it is that in the US the government wants people to create wealth so they create jobs, across Europe governments want people to create wealth so they can tax it and pay for the NHS etc...
David Starkey's analysis of Rachel Reeves on Youtube is well worth half an hour. Might not be to everyone's taste but I find his arguments interesting and for the main part convincing. Certainly more convincing than anything she herself has said, or Starmer for that matter.
The truth is David Lammy is not the most stupid member of the government front bench, not by a long chalk.
Reeves had some great tutors - Chris Alsopp and Dieter Helm.
She’s not stupid. Just conventional and unimaginative
David Starkey's analysis of Rachel Reeves on Youtube is well worth half an hour. Might not be to everyone's taste but I find his arguments interesting and for the main part convincing. Certainly more convincing than anything she herself has said, or Starmer for that matter.
The truth is David Lammy is not the most stupid member of the government front bench, not by a long chalk.
Reeves had some great tutors - Chris Alsopp and Dieter Helm.
She’s not stupid. Just conventional and unimaginative
Musk is an absolute fuckwit, and a danger to the civilised world.
Nigel and Kemi need to reign Elon in over all this. (There are stories afoot that they're already trying.) It's so OTT that I can see Labour getting a polling boost as hitherto neutrals rally around Sir Keir in an act of solidarity.
I doubt it, most of the voters who have switched from Labour to Reform since July are white working class Leavers who largely agree with what much of Musk says.
It might switch a few middle class ex Conservative Reform voters back to the Tories though if Farage gets too close to Musk and Robinson, hence Farage trying to distance himself now
I was thinking more of the Starmer-sceptic centrists and general Don't Knows. On a forced choice, such people would probably side with 'our chap' Starmer over the bullying, ranting Musk.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The issue is multiculturalism has completely failed as a model. Immigrants need to integrate into the host country, not import their own culture and establish it as a separate stream
Multiculturalism isn't just about immigrants. A lot of it is homegrown. Look at the cultures of Reform people verus LibDem people.
The model for monoculturalism is China, as the Tibetans and Uyghurs well know.
The upside is that there isn't the tension of "others" or any affront to ones culture. It's one big happy family with common values, in theory.
The downside is the loss of diversity of outlooks, of innovation, and also of the basic freedom to not conform and behave as you want as long as you don't harm others. (Harm is not the same as offend).
The Chinese model is working well, but at a cost. There are pros and cons.
The Chinese model is not a melting point (well maybe literally…)
It’s the imposition of Han culture on others.
The melting point approach is the optimal - take the best and emerge stronger.
Britain today is far better as a result of the Huguenots, the various waves of Jewish immigrants, the Normans, etc.
Everyone except the Romans. After all, what have the Romans ever done for us?
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Is this statement not a microcosm for the whole economic argument?
For example, Germany’s economy was essentially built on cheap Russian energy, cheap third world migrant labour, autos, and exports of precision machinery to China, underpinned by a locked in currency competitiveness with the rest of the block. Only thing they have left is the internal terms of trades from the euro and that’s a pretty dishonest way to make a living.
Of the other large economies, France and Italy arguably only have globally significant economic value as living museums, trading on tourism and luxury brands. And they’re buggering up the former thanks to third world immigration.
Would love to say the UK has made the most of the post Brexit economic opportunity but it hasn’t. Yet.
The EU was - on balance - a healthier place for the UK economy, and within that, the UK was largely free to pursue its own distinct economic model as a services-based, debtor nation with a social security and tax regime somewhere between the French/German model and the U.S. one.
So I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying, except the suggestion that my move to the U.S. implicitly supports the idea that the EU was economically sub-optimal for the UK.
The issue was always the politics, not the economics
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The issue is multiculturalism has completely failed as a model. Immigrants need to integrate into the host country, not import their own culture and establish it as a separate stream
Multiculturalism isn't just about immigrants. A lot of it is homegrown. Look at the cultures of Reform people verus LibDem people.
The model for monoculturalism is China, as the Tibetans and Uyghurs well know.
The upside is that there isn't the tension of "others" or any affront to ones culture. It's one big happy family with common values, in theory.
The downside is the loss of diversity of outlooks, of innovation, and also of the basic freedom to not conform and behave as you want as long as you don't harm others. (Harm is not the same as offend).
The Chinese model is working well, but at a cost. There are pros and cons.
The Chinese model is not a melting point (well maybe literally…)
It’s the imposition of Han culture on others.
The melting point approach is the optimal - take the best and emerge stronger.
Britain today is far better as a result of the Huguenots, the various waves of Jewish immigrants, the Normans, etc.
Everyone except the Romans. After all, what have the Romans ever done for us?
The - Normans? The Normans were the biggest disaster to hit the people of the British Isles since the Romans!
Barn-storming speech by Zia Yusuf at the Reform Conference. Nigel is a very good speaker, but I'm happy to take his speech as read - I was far keener to see Yusuf's, and it really should be watched by anyone who thinks Reform are a flash in the pan, a vehicle for Nigel's ego, or indeed a bunch of golf club racists.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
We’re not far from ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ on this.
The original poster said nothing of the sort. Get a grip.
I didn’t say we were there yet.
However labelling mainstream politics/politicians as Far Right or Fascist I find absurd and it is a step away from that.
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Which is fair, what's very worrying is that Europe (and I include Labour's UK in this) is become a retirement home for people who have found success elsewhere in the world because it is now actively hostile to wealth creation. The welfare states across Europe have created an entitlement culture and people think they are owed wealth transfers from successful people whether that's directly in the form of cash benefits or indirectly in the form of healthcare/education/state employment etc...
I don't know what the solution to this is, but the entitlement culture across Europe is bankrupting the continent, the UK included and it's become a negative spiral as we're having to increase tax to pay for it which further harms economic growth and the tax base and eventually we turn into Argentina.
I agree with all of this.
As ever the refrain I hear from American business people is very true - America innovated and Europe regulates. I think without the UK in the EU it's worse than ever, the regulations are stifling for EU companies now that there's no significant free market voice at the top table. I'm extremely worried that Starmer will sell out the nation to the EU which I hope that the next government will just undo on day one.
Beware of Americans high on their own supply!
Americans have never been entirely and increasingly are less (see OnlyLivingBoy’s post) “free market”.
My experience of this is in finance and AI, two areas where the US approach has been significantly better than the EU approach. The EU has completely destroyed AI development across Europe, the rats have all left the sinking ship and come to the UK or gone over to the US. In finance their regulatory "innovations" have been counterproductive at every turn and made Europe less competitive. Our own regulations are also pretty awful as well so there's no triumphalism here just pointing out that I don't think there's any chance if what OLB saying actually happening. The US economy has an innate ability to right itself and bring in necessary talent and create wealth.
I think the best way I can put it is that in the US the government wants people to create wealth so they create jobs, across Europe governments want people to create wealth so they can tax it and pay for the NHS etc...
I think the “government” tends towards regulation wherever they are.
What’s different in the U.S. is cultural (the pie is always getting bigger), the VC ecosystem, the Silicon Valley ecosystem, inter-state competition, the vast size of the market, a willingness by the state to invest in certain sectors (usually defence), and cheap energy.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The issue is multiculturalism has completely failed as a model. Immigrants need to integrate into the host country, not import their own culture and establish it as a separate stream
Multiculturalism isn't just about immigrants. A lot of it is homegrown. Look at the cultures of Reform people verus LibDem people.
The model for monoculturalism is China, as the Tibetans and Uyghurs well know.
The upside is that there isn't the tension of "others" or any affront to ones culture. It's one big happy family with common values, in theory.
The downside is the loss of diversity of outlooks, of innovation, and also of the basic freedom to not conform and behave as you want as long as you don't harm others. (Harm is not the same as offend).
The Chinese model is working well, but at a cost. There are pros and cons.
The Chinese model is not a melting point (well maybe literally…)
It’s the imposition of Han culture on others.
The melting point approach is the optimal - take the best and emerge stronger.
Britain today is far better as a result of the Huguenots, the various waves of Jewish immigrants, the Normans, etc.
Everyone except the Romans. After all, what have the Romans ever done for us?
The - Normans? The Normans were the biggest disaster to hit the people of the British Isles since the Romans!
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Which is fair, what's very worrying is that Europe (and I include Labour's UK in this) is become a retirement home for people who have found success elsewhere in the world because it is now actively hostile to wealth creation. The welfare states across Europe have created an entitlement culture and people think they are owed wealth transfers from successful people whether that's directly in the form of cash benefits or indirectly in the form of healthcare/education/state employment etc...
I don't know what the solution to this is, but the entitlement culture across Europe is bankrupting the continent, the UK included and it's become a negative spiral as we're having to increase tax to pay for it which further harms economic growth and the tax base and eventually we turn into Argentina.
I agree with all of this.
As ever the refrain I hear from American business people is very true - America innovated and Europe regulates. I think without the UK in the EU it's worse than ever, the regulations are stifling for EU companies now that there's no significant free market voice at the top table. I'm extremely worried that Starmer will sell out the nation to the EU which I hope that the next government will just undo on day one.
Beware of Americans high on their own supply!
Americans have never been entirely and increasingly are less (see OnlyLivingBoy’s post) “free market”.
The US is not at all shareholder friendly - the UK is the most shareholder friendly country.
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Is this statement not a microcosm for the whole economic argument?
For example, Germany’s economy was essentially built on cheap Russian energy, cheap third world migrant labour, autos, and exports of precision machinery to China, underpinned by a locked in currency competitiveness with the rest of the block. Only thing they have left is the internal terms of trades from the euro and that’s a pretty dishonest way to make a living.
Of the other large economies, France and Italy arguably only have globally significant economic value as living museums, trading on tourism and luxury brands. And they’re buggering up the former thanks to third world immigration.
Would love to say the UK has made the most of the post Brexit economic opportunity but it hasn’t. Yet.
The EU was - on balance - a healthier place for the UK economy, and within that, the UK was largely free to pursue its own distinct economic model as a services-based, debtor nation with a social security and tax regime somewhere between the French/German model and the U.S. one.
So I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying, except the suggestion that my move to the U.S. implicitly supports the idea that the EU was economically sub-optimal for the UK.
The issue was always the politics, not the economics
The issue was immigration. Maybe not your issue, but that was the ultimate thing that carried the vote.
As for the economics, plenty argued for Brexit on those grounds, and astonishingly many still do.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
We’re not far from ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ on this.
The original poster said nothing of the sort. Get a grip.
I didn’t say we were there yet.
However labelling mainstream politics/politicians as Far Right or Fascist I find absurd and it is a step away from that.
The OP was about Elon Musk. Is he a mainstream politician now?
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The issue is multiculturalism has completely failed as a model. Immigrants need to integrate into the host country, not import their own culture and establish it as a separate stream
Multiculturalism isn't just about immigrants. A lot of it is homegrown. Look at the cultures of Reform people verus LibDem people.
The model for monoculturalism is China, as the Tibetans and Uyghurs well know.
The upside is that there isn't the tension of "others" or any affront to ones culture. It's one big happy family with common values, in theory.
The downside is the loss of diversity of outlooks, of innovation, and also of the basic freedom to not conform and behave as you want as long as you don't harm others. (Harm is not the same as offend).
The Chinese model is working well, but at a cost. There are pros and cons.
The Chinese model is not a melting point (well maybe literally…)
It’s the imposition of Han culture on others.
The melting point approach is the optimal - take the best and emerge stronger.
Britain today is far better as a result of the Huguenots, the various waves of Jewish immigrants, the Normans, etc.
Everyone except the Romans. After all, what have the Romans ever done for us?
It’s also a plastic, fake version of Han culture.
Imagine the version of U.K. history that someone on the dippy end of the Reform voter pool would really like. That’s the style of history that the Chinese government is selling
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
David Starkey's analysis of Rachel Reeves on Youtube is well worth half an hour. Might not be to everyone's taste but I find his arguments interesting and for the main part convincing. Certainly more convincing than anything she herself has said, or Starmer for that matter.
The truth is David Lammy is not the most stupid member of the government front bench, not by a long chalk.
Reeves had some great tutors - Chris Alsopp and Dieter Helm.
She’s not stupid. Just conventional and unimaginative
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The issue is multiculturalism has completely failed as a model. Immigrants need to integrate into the host country, not import their own culture and establish it as a separate stream
Multiculturalism isn't just about immigrants. A lot of it is homegrown. Look at the cultures of Reform people verus LibDem people.
The model for monoculturalism is China, as the Tibetans and Uyghurs well know.
The upside is that there isn't the tension of "others" or any affront to ones culture. It's one big happy family with common values, in theory.
The downside is the loss of diversity of outlooks, of innovation, and also of the basic freedom to not conform and behave as you want as long as you don't harm others. (Harm is not the same as offend).
The Chinese model is working well, but at a cost. There are pros and cons.
The Chinese model is not a melting point (well maybe literally…)
It’s the imposition of Han culture on others.
The melting point approach is the optimal - take the best and emerge stronger.
Britain today is far better as a result of the Huguenots, the various waves of Jewish immigrants, the Normans, etc.
Everyone except the Romans. After all, what have the Romans ever done for us?
It's one of this great 'what if's' isn't it! What if William the Bastard had lost at Hastings and been driven back into the sea. Secondly, of course, if he'd lived, would he have tried again?
But if the Norman Conquest hadn't happened, then England would have been more like the Scandinavian countries.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
I’m well aware of that and I don’t doubt his knowledge.
However there is no need to be such a condescending asshole when making that point, is there ?
Berating me for not seeing posts on PB previously about it. 🤷♂️
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
Really? My most vivid memory of Brexit PB was an erstwhile poster called seanT going around screaming 'traitor' at everyone in the most hysterical manner. And he was (at least at the time) a diehard Leaver.
Leon, Casino and Max are three of the most hysterical and intemperate posters on here. They routinely call for what would amount to a form of dictatorship if taken literally.
Leon of course is mostly very entertaining - especially since the photo and AI bans - and all three make very very valid points quite regularly, in between screams of treachery and calls for their political enemies to be imprisoned if not executed.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
I like the theory that the drugs are kippering his sleep patterns and UK TwiX is awake when he's suffering from night demons.
But seriously. Some of his friends need to stage an Intervention, because right now he is an excellent warning for the way that social media rots your mind.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
He's only shown a real interest in the UK since about July, oddly enough. It's almost as though something has changed. In recent weeks, he's been totally obsessed with doing down Britain.
There are various possible reasons and motivations for his misbehaviour, varying from the stupid to the downright malicious. I'm not a fan of Starmer, but my goodness, Musk and his fanbois are going far beyond any reasonable criticism.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
I’m quite happy to be corrected about it, I’m not too keen on the way he did it which was my issue.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
We’re not far from ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ on this.
The original poster said nothing of the sort. Get a grip.
I didn’t say we were there yet.
However labelling mainstream politics/politicians as Far Right or Fascist I find absurd and it is a step away from that.
The OP was about Elon Musk. Is he a mainstream politician now?
It was about Musk and his fanbase, not just Musk therefore.
I said politics/politicians, not just politicians.
There’s a lot of stupid labelling of fascist that goes on which really doesn’t apply. It’s like Rick in the young ones.
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The issue is multiculturalism has completely failed as a model. Immigrants need to integrate into the host country, not import their own culture and establish it as a separate stream
Multiculturalism isn't just about immigrants. A lot of it is homegrown. Look at the cultures of Reform people verus LibDem people.
The model for monoculturalism is China, as the Tibetans and Uyghurs well know.
The upside is that there isn't the tension of "others" or any affront to ones culture. It's one big happy family with common values, in theory.
The downside is the loss of diversity of outlooks, of innovation, and also of the basic freedom to not conform and behave as you want as long as you don't harm others. (Harm is not the same as offend).
The Chinese model is working well, but at a cost. There are pros and cons.
The Chinese model is not a melting point (well maybe literally…)
It’s the imposition of Han culture on others.
The melting point approach is the optimal - take the best and emerge stronger.
Britain today is far better as a result of the Huguenots, the various waves of Jewish immigrants, the Normans, etc.
Everyone except the Romans. After all, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Pot, not Point. (to be picky)
I think the approach is to take everyone and emerge stronger. Who can tell who the best are after all?
Not that I'd wish troubles on anyone there is too an element of the Darwinism in this. The good people do well and the less good, less so.
I think it's vitally important that we retain a certain snobbery against the French (just for the hell of it), but otherwise I agree.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
I like the theory that the drugs are kippering his sleep patterns and UK TwiX is awake when he's suffering from night demons.
But seriously. Some of his friends need to stage an Intervention, because right now he is an excellent warning for the way that social media rots your mind.
He’s always been a night owl.
Pretty common in Silicon Valley, and startup culture as well.
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Which is fair, what's very worrying is that Europe (and I include Labour's UK in this) is become a retirement home for people who have found success elsewhere in the world because it is now actively hostile to wealth creation. The welfare states across Europe have created an entitlement culture and people think they are owed wealth transfers from successful people whether that's directly in the form of cash benefits or indirectly in the form of healthcare/education/state employment etc...
I don't know what the solution to this is, but the entitlement culture across Europe is bankrupting the continent, the UK included and it's become a negative spiral as we're having to increase tax to pay for it which further harms economic growth and the tax base and eventually we turn into Argentina.
I agree with all of this.
As ever the refrain I hear from American business people is very true - America innovated and Europe regulates. I think without the UK in the EU it's worse than ever, the regulations are stifling for EU companies now that there's no significant free market voice at the top table. I'm extremely worried that Starmer will sell out the nation to the EU which I hope that the next government will just undo on day one.
Beware of Americans high on their own supply!
Americans have never been entirely and increasingly are less (see OnlyLivingBoy’s post) “free market”.
The US is not at all shareholder friendly - the UK is the most shareholder friendly country.
The US is controlled by management interests
And yet US investors and shareholders took a 24% gain on the S&P in 2024 vs UK shareholders getting 5% on the FTSE100. Maybe, just maybe the regulator has taken things to far and companies that are beholden to shareholders make poor decisions on investment vs cash returns.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
Benpointer is pretty good at posting absolute nonsense.
Meanwhile, in other news, here's my competition entry:
1. Lab 34 Con 32, LD 16, Ref 27 2. Lab 20, Con 17, LD 6, Ref 8 3. Reform MPs 9 4. Tory defectors 4 5. By-elections 3 6. Cabinet exits 3 7. AfD seats 121 8. CPI 1.5% 9. Borrowing £115bn 10. UK growth 2.4% 11. US growth 3.6% 12. EU growth 1.3% 13. USD/RUB 240 14. Ashes Aus 1 - Eng 2
Edit: posting early to avoid accusations of taking the average of other entries ;-)
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Would you question why Biden was interested in Ireland? It seems natural for people of British descent to question what is becoming of the mother country.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
Benpointer is pretty good at posting absolute nonsense.
Meanwhile, in other news, here's my competition entry:
1. Lab 34 Con 32, LD 16, Ref 27 2. Lab 20, Con 17, LD 6, Ref 8 3. Reform MPs 9 4. Tory defectors 4 5. By-elections 3 6. Cabinet exits 3 7. AfD seats 121 8. CPI 1.5% 9. Borrowing £115bn 10. UK growth 2.4% 11. US growth 3.6% 12. EU growth 1.3% 13. USD/RUB 240 14. Ashes Aus 1 - Eng 2
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The issue is multiculturalism has completely failed as a model. Immigrants need to integrate into the host country, not import their own culture and establish it as a separate stream
Multiculturalism isn't just about immigrants. A lot of it is homegrown. Look at the cultures of Reform people verus LibDem people.
The model for monoculturalism is China, as the Tibetans and Uyghurs well know.
The upside is that there isn't the tension of "others" or any affront to ones culture. It's one big happy family with common values, in theory.
The downside is the loss of diversity of outlooks, of innovation, and also of the basic freedom to not conform and behave as you want as long as you don't harm others. (Harm is not the same as offend).
The Chinese model is working well, but at a cost. There are pros and cons.
The Chinese model is not a melting point (well maybe literally…)
It’s the imposition of Han culture on others.
The melting point approach is the optimal - take the best and emerge stronger.
Britain today is far better as a result of the Huguenots, the various waves of Jewish immigrants, the Normans, etc.
Everyone except the Romans. After all, what have the Romans ever done for us?
The - Normans? The Normans were the biggest disaster to hit the people of the British Isles since the Romans!
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
Benpointer is pretty good at posting absolute nonsense.
Meanwhile, in other news, here's my competition entry:
1. Lab 34 Con 32, LD 16, Ref 27 2. Lab 20, Con 17, LD 6, Ref 8 3. Reform MPs 9 4. Tory defectors 4 5. By-elections 3 6. Cabinet exits 3 7. AfD seats 121 8. CPI 1.5% 9. Borrowing £115bn 10. UK growth 2.4% 11. US growth 3.6% 12. EU growth 1.3% 13. USD/RUB 240 14. Ashes Aus 1 - Eng 2
Edit: posting early to avoid accusations of taking the average of other entries ;-)
Thinking of doing the opposite: making unlikely choices. So I'm unlikely to win, but if I do I'll seem like a genius.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
Benpointer is pretty good at posting absolute nonsense.
Meanwhile, in other news, here's my competition entry:
1. Lab 34 Con 32, LD 16, Ref 27 2. Lab 20, Con 17, LD 6, Ref 8 3. Reform MPs 9 4. Tory defectors 4 5. By-elections 3 6. Cabinet exits 3 7. AfD seats 121 8. CPI 1.5% 9. Borrowing £115bn 10. UK growth 2.4% 11. US growth 3.6% 12. EU growth 1.3% 13. USD/RUB 240 14. Ashes Aus 1 - Eng 2
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Would you question why Biden was interested in Ireland? It seems natural for people of British descent to question what is becoming of the mother country.
This is not Musk's 'mother country'. He has shown very little interest in the UK in the past, and has not invested heavily in this country.
You cannot say the same about Trump, for instance.
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Is this statement not a microcosm for the whole economic argument?
For example, Germany’s economy was essentially built on cheap Russian energy, cheap third world migrant labour, autos, and exports of precision machinery to China, underpinned by a locked in currency competitiveness with the rest of the block. Only thing they have left is the internal terms of trades from the euro and that’s a pretty dishonest way to make a living.
Of the other large economies, France and Italy arguably only have globally significant economic value as living museums, trading on tourism and luxury brands. And they’re buggering up the former thanks to third world immigration.
Would love to say the UK has made the most of the post Brexit economic opportunity but it hasn’t. Yet.
The EU was - on balance - a healthier place for the UK economy, and within that, the UK was largely free to pursue its own distinct economic model as a services-based, debtor nation with a social security and tax regime somewhere between the French/German model and the U.S. one.
So I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying, except the suggestion that my move to the U.S. implicitly supports the idea that the EU was economically sub-optimal for the UK.
The issue was always the politics, not the economics
The issue was immigration. Maybe not your issue, but that was the ultimate thing that carried the vote.
As for the economics, plenty argued for Brexit on those grounds, and astonishingly many still do.
I’d include that within politics (as opposed to a pure economic/trading bloc)
But here's the problem: that would not just be a trait seen just in immigration from Muslim countries; and many immigrants from Muslim countries do have a loyalty to the British state and people.
I'm married to one.
So events like this are used by racists to say: "This is what all Muslims are like," and then: "This is what all immigrants are like."
I just wonder, if a load of British immigrants - we could call them expats, it has a nice ring - went to a foreign country, say Spain and settled in a random place, say the Costa del Sol and decided to import British fish and chips, speak no Spanish and generally create a mini-Britain, would we be calling them not loyal to Spain and generally destroying their culture, taking over the country?
I think Spain would have every right to deport the lot of them if they became a nuisance.
I've spoken to people from there. They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area.
Sound familiar?
If they don't belong in Spain, what should happen to them? I say deport them.
What do you mean "don't belong"?
I'm happy to accept your definition:
"They do cause a nuisance, the locals hate them, they have basically destroyed the culture and the Spanish basically see it as a "no go" area."
Then I wonder why all of those going after Muslims don't seem to spend any time calling for these people to be deported. If you want to start that train then I will support you.
The issue is multiculturalism has completely failed as a model. Immigrants need to integrate into the host country, not import their own culture and establish it as a separate stream
Multiculturalism isn't just about immigrants. A lot of it is homegrown. Look at the cultures of Reform people verus LibDem people.
The model for monoculturalism is China, as the Tibetans and Uyghurs well know.
The upside is that there isn't the tension of "others" or any affront to ones culture. It's one big happy family with common values, in theory.
The downside is the loss of diversity of outlooks, of innovation, and also of the basic freedom to not conform and behave as you want as long as you don't harm others. (Harm is not the same as offend).
The Chinese model is working well, but at a cost. There are pros and cons.
The Chinese model is not a melting point (well maybe literally…)
It’s the imposition of Han culture on others.
The melting point approach is the optimal - take the best and emerge stronger.
Britain today is far better as a result of the Huguenots, the various waves of Jewish immigrants, the Normans, etc.
Everyone except the Romans. After all, what have the Romans ever done for us?
The - Normans? The Normans were the biggest disaster to hit the people of the British Isles since the Romans!
That's because there aren't enough predators. So eat your vegan deer and save the countryside.
Was reading the memoirs of the deer keeper of Richmond Park the other day. It's a huge job culling the deer - they need to kill something approaching a third a year just to keep them in reasonable density. But at least there is a market on the doorstep.
[I think it was 30% at least some years, which might seen large foir an animal which breeds only once a year, but just leave them for a few years and see what happens ...]
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Would you question why Biden was interested in Ireland? It seems natural for people of British descent to question what is becoming of the mother country.
This is not Musk's 'mother country'. He has shown very little interest in the UK in the past, and has not invested heavily in this country.
You cannot say the same about Trump, for instance.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
Benpointer is pretty good at posting absolute nonsense.
Meanwhile, in other news, here's my competition entry:
1. Lab 34 Con 32, LD 16, Ref 27 2. Lab 20, Con 17, LD 6, Ref 8 3. Reform MPs 9 4. Tory defectors 4 5. By-elections 3 6. Cabinet exits 3 7. AfD seats 121 8. CPI 1.5% 9. Borrowing £115bn 10. UK growth 2.4% 11. US growth 3.6% 12. EU growth 1.3% 13. USD/RUB 240 14. Ashes Aus 1 - Eng 2
Wooooo! 240!
Yeah meltdown!
Well that'd be great if it happens. (Of course if they stop the daft war, and even better send the nasty little man to the Hague then I'll be hoping that they don't have an economic collapse)
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
Instead the underlings are queueing up to 'suck the cock of a creep'. Not a paticular fan of Jess Phillips but I hope she's had her personal security ramped up.
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous point from Irvine Welsh.
Whilst it's true that comments like Musk's are awful and create a risk for others like Phillips, you clearly don't reduce that risk by getting into a flame war with the troll. However much it sticks in the throat, you try to take some of the heat out of the situation.
Saying nothing is an option, particularly as I'm not sure what the increasingly Ket-addled Musk has to do with Streeting's remit Health.
I'm struggling to see what's wrong with what Streeting said. He said that what Musk said was "misjudged and misinformed" but declined to stoop to his level.
I agree that saying nothing is an option, but the UK Government as a whole pretending the owner of a major social media platform (indeed the one Welsh was posting on) does not exist is not a serious option.
The issue is Streeting's stupid triangulation. In the same breath he says he disagrees with Musk but is happy to work with him! This in response to inflammatory falsehood that could see Musk behind bars if he was in the UK.
To the extent Musk is part of the Trump administration, which he is, our government has to work with their government. To the extent we want Tesla and TwiX to build British factories and British datacentres, we have to find a way to work with Musk, whether we shut him up or turn a blind eye.
You need to compartmentalise, which is what we do with all the other disreputable autocrats. Yes we're happy to do business with you, but stay out of how we run our country.
Except for press barons? For those on the left, being attacked in the press is an occupational hazard. Today's Mail splashes Starmer's guilt over grooming gangs. Musk is another Lord Rothermere or Rupert Murdoch in this regard.
I don't think it's equivalent. The argument is that we cannot afford to fall out with the government of our main ally with Musk as a member of that government. Hence we need to suck it up when the same ally tries to undermine our legitimate government.
It may depend on whether Trump is an aberration or if situation normal will reassert itself after him. If it doesn't I would question the value of the supposed special relationship.
The special relationship is surely more important in a world where the US is reshaping the global order.
Only if you think Britain being subservient to that world order is more important than the internal good running of the country. Bearing in mind the world order, whatever it is, will happen anyway.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
Benpointer is pretty good at posting absolute nonsense.
Meanwhile, in other news, here's my competition entry:
1. Lab 34 Con 32, LD 16, Ref 27 2. Lab 20, Con 17, LD 6, Ref 8 3. Reform MPs 9 4. Tory defectors 4 5. By-elections 3 6. Cabinet exits 3 7. AfD seats 121 8. CPI 1.5% 9. Borrowing £115bn 10. UK growth 2.4% 11. US growth 3.6% 12. EU growth 1.3% 13. USD/RUB 240 14. Ashes Aus 1 - Eng 2
Edit: posting early to avoid accusations of taking the average of other entries ;-)
Thinking of doing the opposite: making unlikely choices. So I'm unlikely to win, but if I do I'll seem like a genius.
Could be a cunning plan when 20 points for a closest answer applies.
I did think about framing my set of answers on an 'apocalypse' basis but in the event of WW3 I'd probably not be around to collect my winnings. Conversely, in the much preferred non-event of an apocalypse I'd be heading for zero points and the wooden spoon.
That's because there aren't enough predators. So eat your vegan deer and save the countryside.
Was reading the memoirs of the deer keeper of Richmond Park the other day. It's a huge job culling the deer - they need to kill something approaching a third a year just to keep them in reasonable density. But at least there is a market on the doorstep.
[I think it was 30% at least some years, which might seen large foir an animal which breeds only once a year, but just leave them for a few years and see what happens ...]
There may not be enough predators for the deer but @Casino_Royale certainly is one of them 😀
Seeing as they are radicalised by fake news from facebook, twatter, Gbeebies, the mail and telegraph that is hardly surprising.
I know I bang on about it but Facebook is astonishing now. Groups representing ultra-lefty bits of Edinburgh are dominated by Reform-type individuals. Must be even more extreme in places like Lincolnshire.
The danger is these people are convinced they represent the general population, even in a constituency where Reform + Conservative = 10.3% of the vote. A bubble implies it can be popped; these folks are trapped in a nuclear bunker convinced that democracy has been subverted by the woke blob. Their tone is increasingly conspiratorial and violent.
My Facebook feed is dominated by groups it recommends me to join rather than groups or people I’m actually linked to.
I left the politics groups years ago. I imagine they are pretty awful now.
Your observation is not unique to the right and Facebook. A lot of discussion groups are polarised now be it Facebook, Twitter or Bluesky, and are basically echo chambers of like minded people agreeing with each other and say8ng how awful the other lot are.
My issue with Twitter is that an echo chamber has been replaced with another echo chamber. I don’t know how anyone can go on Twitter and pretend it’s in any way balanced.
Twitter is actually very good indeed, still. But you have to manage it ruthlessly.
(I've blocked Musk, for example, as although what he has to say is sometimes of interest, not doing so massively pollutes what you're fed.)
A problem I have is corporate Twitter. Often when one looks them up one doesn't get the latest news. Unless one is a paying subscriber?
Find people who do, and follow them ?
Thanks, but I just want to look on X and see if Transport Organization T has posted any warnings about travel problems or whatever the immediate problem is.
I don't want to follow anyone at all - least of all a long streeam of corporate stuff about the latest charity fundraise, commendable as it is, and the problems of double parking stopping the No 22 bus getting to the shopping centre in outer west Edinburgh ...
This change in Twitter really has messed it up for the corporate info role and I don't think this has sunk in for a lot of the companies in question.
Not getting involved with Elon Musk IMHO is sensible. He can’t win that war and can only win by showing delivery. If he does that, the voters will reward him.
SKS would only legitimise fuckface by clapping back at him. He should have deniable underlings shitting on Musk at every opportunity though. MI6 must have something on the c-nt. Musk is only rich; but SKS has the power of nation state at his disposal, if he is enough of a prick to deploy it.
Instead the underlings are queueing up to 'suck the cock of a creep'. Not a paticular fan of Jess Phillips but I hope she's had her personal security ramped up.
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous point from Irvine Welsh.
Whilst it's true that comments like Musk's are awful and create a risk for others like Phillips, you clearly don't reduce that risk by getting into a flame war with the troll. However much it sticks in the throat, you try to take some of the heat out of the situation.
Saying nothing is an option, particularly as I'm not sure what the increasingly Ket-addled Musk has to do with Streeting's remit Health.
I'm struggling to see what's wrong with what Streeting said. He said that what Musk said was "misjudged and misinformed" but declined to stoop to his level.
I agree that saying nothing is an option, but the UK Government as a whole pretending the owner of a major social media platform (indeed the one Welsh was posting on) does not exist is not a serious option.
The issue is Streeting's stupid triangulation. In the same breath he says he disagrees with Musk but is happy to work with him! This in response to inflammatory falsehood that could see Musk behind bars if he was in the UK.
To the extent Musk is part of the Trump administration, which he is, our government has to work with their government. To the extent we want Tesla and TwiX to build British factories and British datacentres, we have to find a way to work with Musk, whether we shut him up or turn a blind eye.
You need to compartmentalise, which is what we do with all the other disreputable autocrats. Yes we're happy to do business with you, but stay out of how we run our country.
Except for press barons? For those on the left, being attacked in the press is an occupational hazard. Today's Mail splashes Starmer's guilt over grooming gangs. Musk is another Lord Rothermere or Rupert Murdoch in this regard.
I don't think it's equivalent. The argument is that we cannot afford to fall out with the government of our main ally with Musk as a member of that government. Hence we need to suck it up when the same ally tries to undermine our legitimate government.
It may depend on whether Trump is an aberration or if situation normal will reassert itself after him. If it doesn't I would question the value of the supposed special relationship.
The special relationship is surely more important in a world where the US is reshaping the global order.
Only if you think Britain being subservient to that world order is more important than the internal good running of the country. Bearing in mind the world order, whatever it is, will happen anyway.
Not being subservient to it but shaping it. It is our right as Englishmen to play a full role in the political leadership of the Anglosphere.
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
Benpointer is pretty good at posting absolute nonsense.
Meanwhile, in other news, here's my competition entry:
1. Lab 34 Con 32, LD 16, Ref 27 2. Lab 20, Con 17, LD 6, Ref 8 3. Reform MPs 9 4. Tory defectors 4 5. By-elections 3 6. Cabinet exits 3 7. AfD seats 121 8. CPI 1.5% 9. Borrowing £115bn 10. UK growth 2.4% 11. US growth 3.6% 12. EU growth 1.3% 13. USD/RUB 240 14. Ashes Aus 1 - Eng 2
Edit: posting early to avoid accusations of taking the average of other entries ;-)
Thinking of doing the opposite: making unlikely choices. So I'm unlikely to win, but if I do I'll seem like a genius.
Could be a cunning plan when 20 points for a closest answer applies.
I did think about framing my set of answers on an 'apocalypse' basis but in the event of WW3 I'd probably not be around to collect my winnings. Conversely, in the much preferred non-event of an apocalypse I'd be heading for zero points and the wooden spoon.
You could consider the impact of a bird flu epidemic - rather less murderious than WW3 but still pretty shockalyptic.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Would you question why Biden was interested in Ireland? It seems natural for people of British descent to question what is becoming of the mother country.
This is not Musk's 'mother country'. He has shown very little interest in the UK in the past, and has not invested heavily in this country.
You cannot say the same about Trump, for instance.
The thing with Musk is that it's absolutely fine to rant and rave and have all sorts of views. I think with some degree of caution you can do much the same about the politics of another country. He though is in a position where this becomes an issue in that country. He should make it clear that he's a remote observer, and that he ranks below any and all UK voters.
When Trump throws him out I think he'd make a first class recruit as an immigrant to the UK.
That's because there aren't enough predators. So eat your vegan deer and save the countryside.
Was reading the memoirs of the deer keeper of Richmond Park the other day. It's a huge job culling the deer - they need to kill something approaching a third a year just to keep them in reasonable density. But at least there is a market on the doorstep.
[I think it was 30% at least some years, which might seen large foir an animal which breeds only once a year, but just leave them for a few years and see what happens ...]
There may not be enough predators for the deer but @Casino_Royale certainly is one of them 😀
Me too, though it seems to be mostly pheasant at the moment.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Would you question why Biden was interested in Ireland? It seems natural for people of British descent to question what is becoming of the mother country.
This is not Musk's 'mother country'. He has shown very little interest in the UK in the past, and has not invested heavily in this country.
You cannot say the same about Trump, for instance.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
We’re not far from ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ on this.
The original poster said nothing of the sort. Get a grip.
I didn’t say we were there yet.
However labelling mainstream politics/politicians as Far Right or Fascist I find absurd and it is a step away from that.
Do you and Moonshine not sniff a little bit of the far right about Musk then?
This is a good example of the incoherent position the EU has got itself into both on technology and on the idea of 'foreign' interference. Thierry Breton, the French ex-European Commissioner is intervening in the German election to lecture Alice Weidel about appearing in a podcast with Elon Musk.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Would you question why Biden was interested in Ireland? It seems natural for people of British descent to question what is becoming of the mother country.
This is not Musk's 'mother country'. He has shown very little interest in the UK in the past, and has not invested heavily in this country.
You cannot say the same about Trump, for instance.
The thing with Musk is that it's absolutely fine to rant and rave and have all sorts of views. I think with some degree of caution you can do much the same about the politics of another country. He though is in a position where this becomes an issue in that country. He should make it clear that he's a remote observer, and that he ranks below any and all UK voters.
When Trump throws him out I think he'd make a first class recruit as an immigrant to the UK.
Nah, we don't want that sort of immigrant. Pity the poor stewardesses...
The site is no nastier or nicer than it’s been since forever. It has a tendency to get quite brutal and angry when very sensitive subjects are being discussed
Two examples from either side: the Muslim rape gangs scandal gets a large chunk of the forum highly animated - for obvious reasons, 100,000s of victims, no justice served
In contrast Gaza gets a different section of PB seriously agitated - for obvious reasons, 10,000s of dead Gazans, still Israel pounds away
You can’t expect these charged emotional debates to leave PB calmly untouched
We can either have a lively debating forum and accept that at times things will get heated, or we can have a super-moderated old people’s tea-shop in Newent which will be so boring everyone will drift away, anyway
Quite. Indyref used to have some seriously mental threads.
Possibly the most incendiary time on PB was just before and maybe a year after Brexit, when a significant minority of Remainers on PB went literally mad (a couple still linger, bless). They couldn’t accept a democratic decision, they believed they were democrats, the cognitive dissonance left them one choice: lunacy
The worst example was Alistair Meeks. When I say worse I mean saddest, as he was one of the very best and smartest of commenters, judicious, wry, often witty
Then Brexit turned him into a smouldering pit of anger and sometimes he would spend a day issuing threats of actual violence. In the end he made the wise but saddening choice to leave
I still live in hope that now he’s calm again - or so it seems on other forums - he might return
ISTR he was somewhat baited by some of our more (ahem) vociferous posters.
It's a shame when people force other posters off this site. You would *never* do such a thing, would you?
Actually no I didn’t bait him. I do like to wind people up but I have a personal rule that if I think someone is in genuine mental distress - having a breakdown, unstable, suicidal, very depressed - then I leave them alone. I do this because 1. I’m not evil and 2. I’m prone to depressions myself and I know how horrible they are
The meltdown of the Meeks at its worst was painful to see - making threats of violence hourly - I left him to it and quietly hoped he’d improve, or leave. He made the correct decision to leave
I’ve since communicated with him personally and it’s been civil and pleasant. The Meeks of old
Have you considered that the abuse you routinely give out might actually lead someone into mental distress?
I simply don’t believe my invective is that powerful and even if it is then they have the option to simply not come to the site. It’s not like I’m visiting their homes and shouting in their tiny redbrick windows. For a start I hate the provinces
Didn’t DougSeal, a man not averse to dishing it out and I remember him being most rude to me when I commented on an equal pay ruling - what a prick, have a hissy fit at you over something you said which seemed a little innocuous.
One of those things that escalated quickly. Sometimes these do over a simple misunderstanding by one party.
He seemed to get really upset. Really upset.
DougSeal was a specialist employment lawyer iirc so probably knew what he was talking about re equal pay rulings.
Taz often posts absolute nonsense and gets riled when called upon it.
Benpointer is pretty good at posting absolute nonsense.
Meanwhile, in other news, here's my competition entry:
1. Lab 34 Con 32, LD 16, Ref 27 2. Lab 20, Con 17, LD 6, Ref 8 3. Reform MPs 9 4. Tory defectors 4 5. By-elections 3 6. Cabinet exits 3 7. AfD seats 121 8. CPI 1.5% 9. Borrowing £115bn 10. UK growth 2.4% 11. US growth 3.6% 12. EU growth 1.3% 13. USD/RUB 240 14. Ashes Aus 1 - Eng 2
Edit: posting early to avoid accusations of taking the average of other entries ;-)
Thinking of doing the opposite: making unlikely choices. So I'm unlikely to win, but if I do I'll seem like a genius.
Could be a cunning plan when 20 points for a closest answer applies.
I did think about framing my set of answers on an 'apocalypse' basis but in the event of WW3 I'd probably not be around to collect my winnings. Conversely, in the much preferred non-event of an apocalypse I'd be heading for zero points and the wooden spoon.
You could consider the impact of a bird flu epidemic - rather less murderious than WW3 but still pretty shockalyptic.
I was wondering what would happen of Trump lets rip with tariffs, deportations etc... (can't see it happening though).
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Would you question why Biden was interested in Ireland? It seems natural for people of British descent to question what is becoming of the mother country.
This is not Musk's 'mother country'. He has shown very little interest in the UK in the past, and has not invested heavily in this country.
You cannot say the same about Trump, for instance.
1 Highest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform. L 30 C 28 LD 14 R 25
2 Lowest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform. L 20 C 19 LD 10 R 15
3 Number of Reform MPs on 31/12/2025. 5
4 Number of Tory MP defectors to Reform in 2025. 0
5 Number of Westminster by-elections held in 2025. 1
6 Number of ministers to leave the Westminster cabinet during 2025. 1
7 Number of seats won by the AfD in the 2025 German Federal Election. 132
8 UK CPI figure for November 2025 (Nov 2024 = 2.6%). 3.5%
9 UK borrowing in the financial year-to-November 2025 (Year to Nov 2024 = £113.2bn). £150bn
10 UK GDP growth in the 12 months to October 2025 (Oct 23 to Oct 24 = 1.3%). 0.5%
11 US growth annualised rate in Q3 2025 (Q3 2024 = 3.1%). 3%
12 EU growth Q3 2024 to Q3 2025 (2024 = 1.0%). 2%
13 USD/Ruble exchange rate at London FOREX close on 31/12/2025 (31/12/2024 = 114 USD/RUB). 130
14 The result of the 2025-2026 Ashes series (2023 series: Drawn 2–2). Aus 3-2
I'm very interested that you don't think Braverman will go. She's obviously between a stupid rock and a stupid hard place, but I had pencilled in that she'd be a definite.
This is a good example of the incoherent position the EU has got itself into both on technology and on the idea of 'foreign' interference. Thierry Breton, the French ex-European Commissioner is intervening in the German election to lecture Alice Weidel about appearing in a podcast with Elon Musk.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Would you question why Biden was interested in Ireland? It seems natural for people of British descent to question what is becoming of the mother country.
This is not Musk's 'mother country'. He has shown very little interest in the UK in the past, and has not invested heavily in this country.
You cannot say the same about Trump, for instance.
The thing with Musk is that it's absolutely fine to rant and rave and have all sorts of views. I think with some degree of caution you can do much the same about the politics of another country. He though is in a position where this becomes an issue in that country. He should make it clear that he's a remote observer, and that he ranks below any and all UK voters.
When Trump throws him out I think he'd make a first class recruit as an immigrant to the UK.
Nah, we don't want that sort of immigrant. Pity the poor stewardesses...
He's only as wrong as the average PBer though isn't he?
This is a good example of the incoherent position the EU has got itself into both on technology and on the idea of 'foreign' interference. Thierry Breton, the French ex-European Commissioner is intervening in the German election to lecture Alice Weidel about appearing in a podcast with Elon Musk.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
Unless you're very young, I'd question whether Starmer was to the left of Gordon Brown.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Would you question why Biden was interested in Ireland? It seems natural for people of British descent to question what is becoming of the mother country.
This is not Musk's 'mother country'. He has shown very little interest in the UK in the past, and has not invested heavily in this country.
You cannot say the same about Trump, for instance.
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Which is fair, what's very worrying is that Europe (and I include Labour's UK in this) is become a retirement home for people who have found success elsewhere in the world because it is now actively hostile to wealth creation. The welfare states across Europe have created an entitlement culture and people think they are owed wealth transfers from successful people whether that's directly in the form of cash benefits or indirectly in the form of healthcare/education/state employment etc...
I don't know what the solution to this is, but the entitlement culture across Europe is bankrupting the continent, the UK included and it's become a negative spiral as we're having to increase tax to pay for it which further harms economic growth and the tax base and eventually we turn into Argentina.
The Spectator was very good this week:
"We have a government which preaches growth and yet seems to understand nothing of the conditions in which it thrives. Ever since the Labour party began to accuse the Cameron government of ‘austerity’ for daring to attempt to balance the public finances, it has seemed to operate under the belief that only the public sector can generate economic growth. It sees the private sector, by contrast, as there to be plundered. Entrepreneurs are not innovative and hard-working people whose talents and appetite for risk-taking create jobs and wealth; they are merely the fabled ‘broad shoulders’ who can be tapped again and again for revenue."
This is a good example of the incoherent position the EU has got itself into both on technology and on the idea of 'foreign' interference. Thierry Breton, the French ex-European Commissioner is intervening in the German election to lecture Alice Weidel about appearing in a podcast with Elon Musk.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
We’re not far from ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ on this.
The original poster said nothing of the sort. Get a grip.
I didn’t say we were there yet.
However labelling mainstream politics/politicians as Far Right or Fascist I find absurd and it is a step away from that.
Do you and Moonshine not sniff a little bit of the far right about Musk then?
(for it is He I was referring to)
His support of Tommy Robinson is, I suspect, due to lack of knowledge of the man and his incarceration cause rather than support of him. He possibly takes things at face value.
I think he is a free speech absolutist, small govt, conservative. To an outsider to the U.K. the grooming gangs story would seem crazy. The story, to me, is more the establishment cover ups/reluctance to act as many of the perpetrators were punished.
I think there’s an element of playing to his base, he’s also a bit of a troll. If I was a major shareholder in Tesla or one of his other companies I’d be into him saying ‘what the fuck are you playing at ?, focus on the business’ his comments cannot help his businesses in mature and still relatively prosperous markets like Germany and the U.K.
In U.K. terms I see him on the right of the Tory Party.
His pro migration stance is certainly not far right, for example.
1 Highest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform. L 30 C 28 LD 14 R 25
2 Lowest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform. L 20 C 19 LD 10 R 15
3 Number of Reform MPs on 31/12/2025. 5
4 Number of Tory MP defectors to Reform in 2025. 0
5 Number of Westminster by-elections held in 2025. 1
6 Number of ministers to leave the Westminster cabinet during 2025. 1
7 Number of seats won by the AfD in the 2025 German Federal Election. 132
8 UK CPI figure for November 2025 (Nov 2024 = 2.6%). 3.5%
9 UK borrowing in the financial year-to-November 2025 (Year to Nov 2024 = £113.2bn). £150bn
10 UK GDP growth in the 12 months to October 2025 (Oct 23 to Oct 24 = 1.3%). 0.5%
11 US growth annualised rate in Q3 2025 (Q3 2024 = 3.1%). 3%
12 EU growth Q3 2024 to Q3 2025 (2024 = 1.0%). 2%
13 USD/Ruble exchange rate at London FOREX close on 31/12/2025 (31/12/2024 = 114 USD/RUB). 130
14 The result of the 2025-2026 Ashes series (2023 series: Drawn 2–2). Aus 3-2
I'm very interested that you don't think Braverman will go. She's obviously between a stupid rock and a stupid hard place, but I had pencilled in that she'd be a definite.
No she still wants to be Conservative leader some day but she has covered both bases and sent her husband to join Reform instead
This is a good example of the incoherent position the EU has got itself into both on technology and on the idea of 'foreign' interference. Thierry Breton, the French ex-European Commissioner is intervening in the German election to lecture Alice Weidel about appearing in a podcast with Elon Musk.
Musk is an absolute fuckwit, and a danger to the civilised world.
Nigel and Kemi need to reign Elon in over all this. (There are stories afoot that they're already trying.) It's so OTT that I can see Labour getting a polling boost as hitherto neutrals rally around Sir Keir in an act of solidarity.
Yep. Our nation under attack from a far right johnny foreign megalomaniac. Time for some Dunkirk spirit.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
We’re not far from ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ on this.
The original poster said nothing of the sort. Get a grip.
You accused several of us of favouring dictatorship, which is nonsense.
If that's the standard of debate on here then we're all going to stop listening to each other.
All the commentary here about Meeks is rather Freudian.
He was, and so far as I can tell remains, utterly correct in his diagnosis of Brexit.
Not really.
It's only a few irreconcilables like you and him and Scott and Foxy that continue to be obsessed by Brexit.
The rest of us have moved on.
I’ve literally moved on, to the U.S.
Not the EU then?
I’d absolutely live in the EU (a diverse place), but right now the U.S. makes sense for my economic situation.
Which is fair, what's very worrying is that Europe (and I include Labour's UK in this) is become a retirement home for people who have found success elsewhere in the world because it is now actively hostile to wealth creation. The welfare states across Europe have created an entitlement culture and people think they are owed wealth transfers from successful people whether that's directly in the form of cash benefits or indirectly in the form of healthcare/education/state employment etc...
I don't know what the solution to this is, but the entitlement culture across Europe is bankrupting the continent, the UK included and it's become a negative spiral as we're having to increase tax to pay for it which further harms economic growth and the tax base and eventually we turn into Argentina.
I agree with all of this.
As ever the refrain I hear from American business people is very true - America innovated and Europe regulates. I think without the UK in the EU it's worse than ever, the regulations are stifling for EU companies now that there's no significant free market voice at the top table. I'm extremely worried that Starmer will sell out the nation to the EU which I hope that the next government will just undo on day one.
Starmer is absolutely going to sell the nation out to the EU, and well the EU knows it.
It's one of my most certain predictions for this year and next.
“We’re entering this sort of parallel reality based on Musk’s ignorance of the thing he wants to talk about.”
Reflecting on over a decade writing about grooming gangs, @HugoRifkind explains why he’s not sure an inquiry into grooming gangs will provide any answers.
Answers are not what Musk and his fanbase want. They want 2 things. To damage Keir Starmer. To whip up hatred of Muslims. Both of these things being in the interests of their far right politics.
Heard it all now. Wanting to damage the most left wing PM of my lifetime means you are far right.
We’re not far from ‘Everyone who disagrees with me is Hitler’ on this.
The original poster said nothing of the sort. Get a grip.
You accused several of us of favouring dictatorship, which is nonsense.
If that's the standard of debate on here then we're all going to stop listening to each other.
I didn’t say that directly, you should read the post again. Read it and understand it, in the immortal words of that parish council video that briefly went viral
1 Highest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform. L 30 C 28 LD 14 R 25
2 Lowest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform. L 20 C 19 LD 10 R 15
3 Number of Reform MPs on 31/12/2025. 5
4 Number of Tory MP defectors to Reform in 2025. 0
5 Number of Westminster by-elections held in 2025. 1
6 Number of ministers to leave the Westminster cabinet during 2025. 1
7 Number of seats won by the AfD in the 2025 German Federal Election. 132
8 UK CPI figure for November 2025 (Nov 2024 = 2.6%). 3.5%
9 UK borrowing in the financial year-to-November 2025 (Year to Nov 2024 = £113.2bn). £150bn
10 UK GDP growth in the 12 months to October 2025 (Oct 23 to Oct 24 = 1.3%). 0.5%
11 US growth annualised rate in Q3 2025 (Q3 2024 = 3.1%). 3%
12 EU growth Q3 2024 to Q3 2025 (2024 = 1.0%). 2%
13 USD/Ruble exchange rate at London FOREX close on 31/12/2025 (31/12/2024 = 114 USD/RUB). 130
14 The result of the 2025-2026 Ashes series (2023 series: Drawn 2–2). Aus 3-2
I'm very interested that you don't think Braverman will go. She's obviously between a stupid rock and a stupid hard place, but I had pencilled in that she'd be a definite.
No she still wants to be Conservative leader some day but she has covered both bases and sent her husband to join Reform instead
Actually that makes a lot of sense. I presume she wants to be the Queen across the water for Reform.
Comments
The sad thing is that people still seem to worship him. Any good he's done in the past is far outweighed by the stuff he's done over the last five or so years. And he's getting worse.
He's been totally and inescapably radicalised. Which is not great - but he's now able to make millions of people see this bile.
I just don't know what we do about it.
The very rich are often quite insane - to be a billionaire is not the normal condition for a human - but what’s frighteningly new is the ability via Twitter/X to destabilise a democratically elected government.
Get a grip.
So you are willing to use lies and mistruths (such as Musk's tweet below) just so you can damage someone you don't like?
The issue is that the algorithm drives people towards extreme perspectives. That’s the problem rather than simply the normal rough and tumble of people posting crap. If it wasn’t amplified the most people wouldn’t see it.
So eliminate the economic incentive (people engage more with stuff that makes them angry and engagement drives usage drives advertising dollars).
Regulate it like a utility with a fixed return on capital employed. (And for the avoidance of doubt capital employed is not the same as Musk’s purchase price)
Americans have never been entirely and increasingly are less (see OnlyLivingBoy’s post) “free market”.
It might switch a few middle class ex Conservative Reform voters back to the Tories though if Farage gets too close to Musk and Robinson, hence Farage trying to distance himself now
I think the best way I can put it is that in the US the government wants people to create wealth so they create jobs, across Europe governments want people to create wealth so they can tax it and pay for the NHS etc...
She’s not stupid. Just conventional and unimaginative
It’s the imposition of Han culture on others.
The melting point approach is the optimal - take the best and emerge stronger.
Britain today is far better as a result of the Huguenots, the various waves of Jewish immigrants, the Normans, etc.
Everyone except the Romans. After all, what have the Romans ever done for us?
https://x.com/marcolonghi4dn/status/1875467255955255434
The Normans were the biggest disaster to hit the people of the British Isles since the Romans!
Barn-storming speech by Zia Yusuf at the Reform Conference. Nigel is a very good speaker, but I'm happy to take his speech as read - I was far keener to see Yusuf's, and it really should be watched by anyone who thinks Reform are a flash in the pan, a vehicle for Nigel's ego, or indeed a bunch of golf club racists.
However labelling mainstream politics/politicians as Far Right or Fascist I find absurd and it is a step away from that.
What’s different in the U.S. is cultural (the pie is always getting bigger), the VC ecosystem, the Silicon Valley ecosystem, inter-state competition, the vast size of the market, a willingness by the state to invest in certain sectors (usually defence), and cheap energy.
"On severely overpopulated and depleted ranges, white-tailed deer have starved to death with their stomachs full of low quality forages."
https://www.msudeer.msstate.edu/deer-diet.php
The US is controlled by management interests
Maybe not your issue, but that was the ultimate thing that carried the vote.
As for the economics, plenty argued for Brexit on those grounds, and astonishingly many still do.
Does Musk issue dozens of tweets every day, and just occasionally takes a potshot at Starmer that we notice? Or is he for some reason really interested in the UK?
Is he a mainstream politician now?
Imagine the version of U.K. history that someone on the dippy end of the Reform voter pool would really like. That’s the style of history that the Chinese government is selling
Secondly, of course, if he'd lived, would he have tried again?
But if the Norman Conquest hadn't happened, then England would have been more like the Scandinavian countries.
However there is no need to be such a condescending asshole when making that point, is there ?
Berating me for not seeing posts on PB previously about it. 🤷♂️
Or it pants?
But seriously. Some of his friends need to stage an Intervention, because right now he is an excellent warning for the way that social media rots your mind.
There are various possible reasons and motivations for his misbehaviour, varying from the stupid to the downright malicious. I'm not a fan of Starmer, but my goodness, Musk and his fanbois are going far beyond any reasonable criticism.
I said politics/politicians, not just politicians.
There’s a lot of stupid labelling of fascist that goes on which really doesn’t apply. It’s like Rick in the young ones.
😉
I think the approach is to take everyone and emerge stronger. Who can tell who the best are after all?
Not that I'd wish troubles on anyone there is too an element of the Darwinism in this. The good people do well and the less good, less so.
I think it's vitally important that we retain a certain snobbery against the French (just for the hell of it), but otherwise I agree.
Pretty common in Silicon Valley, and startup culture as well.
Meanwhile, in other news, here's my competition entry:
1. Lab 34 Con 32, LD 16, Ref 27
2. Lab 20, Con 17, LD 6, Ref 8
3. Reform MPs 9
4. Tory defectors 4
5. By-elections 3
6. Cabinet exits 3
7. AfD seats 121
8. CPI 1.5%
9. Borrowing £115bn
10. UK growth 2.4%
11. US growth 3.6%
12. EU growth 1.3%
13. USD/RUB 240
14. Ashes Aus 1 - Eng 2
Edit: posting early to avoid accusations of taking the average of other entries ;-)
You cannot say the same about Trump, for instance.
Highest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform.
L 30 C 28 LD 15 R 35
Lowest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform.
L 18 C 17 LD 5 R 20
Number of Reform MPs on 31/12/2025.
6
Number of Tory MP defectors to Reform in 2025.
2
Number of Westminster by-elections held in 2025.
3
Number of ministers to leave the Westminster cabinet during 2025.
2
Number of seats won by the AfD in the 2025 German Federal Election.
152
UK CPI figure for November 2025 (Nov 2024 = 2.6%).
3.6%
UK borrowing in the financial year-to-November 2025 (Year to Nov 2024 = £113.2bn).
£167bn
UK GDP growth in the 12 months to October 2025 (Oct 23 to Oct 24 = 1.3%).
1.0%
US growth annualised rate in Q3 2025 (Q3 2024 = 3.1%).
2.5%
EU growth Q3 2024 to Q3 2025 (2024 = 1.0%).
1.5%
USD/Ruble exchange rate at London FOREX close on 31/12/2025 (31/12/2024 = 114 USD/RUB).
150
The result of the 2025-2026 Ashes series (2023 series: Drawn 2–2).
Aus 4-1
Was reading the memoirs of the deer keeper of Richmond Park the other day. It's a huge job culling the deer - they need to kill something approaching a third a year just to keep them in reasonable density. But at least there is a market on the doorstep.
[I think it was 30% at least some years, which might seen large foir an animal which breeds only once a year, but just leave them for a few years and see what happens ...]
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1373490182117224448
Who is he again?
Be interesting to see if the umber of entrants is higher than last year or not. Gives you an idea of the regular users.
I did think about framing my set of answers on an 'apocalypse' basis but in the event of WW3 I'd probably not be around to collect my winnings. Conversely, in the much preferred non-event of an apocalypse I'd be heading for zero points and the wooden spoon.
I don't want to follow anyone at all - least of all a long streeam of corporate stuff about the latest charity fundraise, commendable as it is, and the problems of double parking stopping the No 22 bus getting to the shopping centre in outer west Edinburgh ...
This change in Twitter really has messed it up for the corporate info role and I don't think this has sunk in for a lot of the companies in question.
1 Highest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform.
L 30 C 28 LD 14 R 25
2 Lowest share of the vote in 2025 with a BPC registered pollster in a GB wide poll for each of Lab, Con, LD, Reform.
L 20 C 19 LD 10 R 15
3 Number of Reform MPs on 31/12/2025.
5
4 Number of Tory MP defectors to Reform in 2025.
0
5 Number of Westminster by-elections held in 2025.
1
6 Number of ministers to leave the Westminster cabinet during 2025.
1
7 Number of seats won by the AfD in the 2025 German Federal Election.
132
8 UK CPI figure for November 2025 (Nov 2024 = 2.6%).
3.5%
9 UK borrowing in the financial year-to-November 2025 (Year to Nov 2024 = £113.2bn).
£150bn
10 UK GDP growth in the 12 months to October 2025 (Oct 23 to Oct 24 = 1.3%).
0.5%
11 US growth annualised rate in Q3 2025 (Q3 2024 = 3.1%).
3%
12 EU growth Q3 2024 to Q3 2025 (2024 = 1.0%).
2%
13 USD/Ruble exchange rate at London FOREX close on 31/12/2025 (31/12/2024 = 114 USD/RUB).
130
14 The result of the 2025-2026 Ashes series (2023 series: Drawn 2–2).
Aus 3-2
11 entrants so far today, so not a bad start.
When Trump throws him out I think he'd make a first class recruit as an immigrant to the UK.
(for it is He I was referring to)
https://x.com/thierrybreton/status/1875482430955532694
Seems a wise warning.
"We have a government which preaches growth and yet seems to understand nothing of the conditions in which it thrives. Ever since the Labour party began to accuse the Cameron government of ‘austerity’ for daring to attempt to balance the public finances, it has seemed to operate under the belief that only the public sector can generate economic growth. It sees the private sector, by contrast, as there to be plundered. Entrepreneurs are not innovative and hard-working people whose talents and appetite for risk-taking create jobs and wealth; they are merely the fabled ‘broad shoulders’ who can be tapped again and again for revenue."
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-growing-wealth-gap-between-britain-and-the-us/?homepage-tracking=magazine_minor-featured-1
That's a distinction even you should be able to see, surely?
I think he is a free speech absolutist, small govt, conservative. To an outsider to the U.K. the grooming gangs story would seem crazy. The story, to me, is more the establishment cover ups/reluctance to act as many of the perpetrators were punished.
I think there’s an element of playing to his base, he’s also a bit of a troll. If I was a major shareholder in Tesla or one of his other companies I’d be into him saying ‘what the fuck are you playing at ?, focus on the business’ his comments cannot help his businesses in mature and still relatively prosperous markets like Germany and the U.K.
In U.K. terms I see him on the right of the Tory Party.
His pro migration stance is certainly not far right, for example.
Who do you think you are kidding Mr Musky.
If that's the standard of debate on here then we're all going to stop listening to each other.
It's one of my most certain predictions for this year and next.
Read it and understand it, in the immortal words of that parish council video that briefly went viral