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Heart of Oak – politicalbetting.com

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  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,986
    When the big bust up between Elon and Donald happens I'll probably side with Donald. Who wouldn't? It's got that bad.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,818
    edited January 3
    People do sometimes succumb to a misty-eyed sense of identification with their 'nation' or their 'people'. I guess this is where the far right would claim that what they offer to their followers is 'deep'.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782

    Nobody looks to the far right for a 'deeper meaning in life'. They look to them so as to be able to blame others.

    The far right does many things; 'deep' is not among them.
    Deep doodoo ?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,373

    When the big bust up between Elon and Donald happens I'll probably side with Donald. Who wouldn't? It's got that bad.

    The thing that Nigel and (prime) Donald have/had mastery of is knowing where to stop. The shock jock art of knowing how to be outrageous, but not too outrageous. The right wing media space is littered with the corpses of wannabes who kept going when they shouldn't have.

    Nigel has that skill; I'm not sure that Kemi or Bobby do. Which is only one of their problems.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782
    Driver said:

    I went to St Petersburg once.
    Yes but he's from Bradivostock.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,238
    edited January 3
    kinabalu said:

    People do sometimes succumb to a misty-eyed sense of identification with their 'nation' or their 'people'. I guess this is where the far right would claim that what they offer to their followers is 'deep'.

    https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/

    The same emotional identification is used by adherents to various creeds. Common to see "I hate Flag Shaggers" waxing lyrical about the tenets of their replacement faith(s)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,818

    When the big bust up between Elon and Donald happens I'll probably side with Donald. Who wouldn't? It's got that bad.

    I get you but I'm not quite there (yet). Trump has no redeeming features, not a single one, and that is pretty special. Least Musk does his cars and rockets.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,238
    Nigelb said:

    Yes but he's from Bradivostock.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEaKX9YYHiQ
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635
    Ruddy hell. Musks feed today. He’s losing it, he really is. I do get how the grooming gangs issue and the institutional cover ups looks to those on the outside but some of his comments are just so wide of left field. His comment about Jess Phillips, a politician I personally have no time for at all, is appalling. He’s just playing to the gallery now.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,309

    The objections to Kemi calling for a public enquiry are ludicrous.
    1. It may highlight her own incompetence - OK, that's an objection how?
    2. She should have called for it long ago - OK, is it too late now and she should just shut her face? Ridiculous argument - the ramifications of what happened still need to be recognised nationally and acted upon. The victims (for the most part) are very much still with us and deserve justice.
    3. She's jumping on the Reform/Musk bandwagon - actually she seems slightly to have beaten Nigel to the punch, fair play. She has also made a lot of noise about culture, and reform of public institutions, so I don’t see that this is in any from the left field.

    Well done Kemi. GO FOR HIM at PMQs.*

    *But do your research and have an answer when he blames the Tories - fairly simple 'If we're to blame, have the enquiry'.

    I think people are entitled to raise criticisms of her past statements (or lack thereof) or performance on any issue they want. Same as they are entitled to criticise Jess Phillips and a whole host of Labour politicians who seem to have curiously forgotten some of the things they said in opposition once they got their feet under the table.

    It shouldn’t de-legitimise or prevent her from calling for things though, I agree.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635

    The thing that Nigel and (prime) Donald have/had mastery of is knowing where to stop. The shock jock art of knowing how to be outrageous, but not too outrageous. The right wing media space is littered with the corpses of wannabes who kept going when they shouldn't have.

    Nigel has that skill; I'm not sure that Kemi or Bobby do. Which is only one of their problems.
    Musk, from his feed today, certainly doesn’t seem to have mastered the skill of where to stop
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,986

    The thing that Nigel and (prime) Donald have/had mastery of is knowing where to stop. The shock jock art of knowing how to be outrageous, but not too outrageous. The right wing media space is littered with the corpses of wannabes who kept going when they shouldn't have.

    Nigel has that skill; I'm not sure that Kemi or Bobby do. Which is only one of their problems.
    Good point. I can't see how the pronouncements of Musk are now remotely distinguishable for those of, say, Lozza Fox.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,835

    We do pretty well at manufacturing a national group feeling every other June for about three or four weeks until someone misses a penalty.
    Even then, we don't really. I'd say the "let's get this over and done with" lobby of various stripes (the not-English, those who think football boring, gauche, woke, stupid or less good than other sports, those who genuinely don't like sports, the club-before-country hardliners, those who cannot stand Gary Lineker, and so on) equates to a good 50% of the country.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx4qZiiz7Cc
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,580
    MattW said:

    This is going to be a long-term story - static caravan owners being fleeced by site operators operating rules which are questionable.

    I don't know if we have any static van owners on PB; the sector is a bit of a wild west. I had one friend who had one that she rented out; she came through intact but it took a lot of careful navigation of site owner demands.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gmy7xjewko

    Private Eye has been on the case for ages. Rather like it was with the Post Office!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,238
    Space news

    Blue Origin’s Drone Ship “Jacklyn” has left port ahead of the maiden flight and first landing attempt of New Glenn.

    Flight is NET (No Earlier Than) Monday 6th
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 374

    The objections to Kemi calling for a public enquiry are ludicrous.
    1. It may highlight her own incompetence - OK, that's an objection how?
    2. She should have called for it long ago - OK, is it too late now and she should just shut her face? Ridiculous argument - the ramifications of what happened still need to be recognised nationally and acted upon. The victims (for the most part) are very much still with us and deserve justice.
    3. She's jumping on the Reform/Musk bandwagon - actually she seems slightly to have beaten Nigel to the punch, fair play. She has also made a lot of noise about culture, and reform of public institutions, so I don’t see that this is in any from the left field.

    Well done Kemi. GO FOR HIM at PMQs.*

    *But do your research and have an answer when he blames the Tories - fairly simple 'If we're to blame, have the enquiry'.

    So she's advocating a national enquiry to cover all the old ground previous enquiries have covered which have worked to implementations already.

    A national enquiry that would cost hundreds of millions and years to achieve what exactly.

    She is not offering an ounce of common sense just playing juvenile debating games.

    She's totally out of her depth.

    She says it's too early for policies but wants to chat for years about policies on this topic that are already being implemented
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177

    Private Eye has been on the case for ages. Rather like it was with the Post Office!
    Maybe Elon should take on this important issue
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,731
    Taz said:

    Musk, from his feed today, certainly doesn’t seem to have mastered the skill of where to stop
    It has been suggested that Musk is trying to make up with the MAGA crowd after they rowed over H1b visas, but it may just be Musk being a nutter.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,333
    edited January 3
    Pulpstar said:


    Are there large differences between Russian and Ukranian - so far as I can see

    О becomes И (Kharkiv/Kharkov)

    &

    Г transliterated as "h" rather than "g" in Ukranian ?
    About the same linguistic distance as Spanish/Portuguese, the transliteration differences are largely a matter of tradition and whether the words come to English via German or not.

    The Ukrainian alphabet has four letters that Russian doesn't and Russian has two letters and one non-phonetic orthographic device (tvyordiy znak lit. "hard sign") that Ukrainian doesn't.

    Ukrainian: ґ, є, ї, і
    Russian: ы, ё, ъ

    I wrote a bit about it here which the Ultras didn't care for.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4314301#Comment_4314301
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635

    Private Eye has been on the case for ages. Rather like it was with the Post Office!
    The stories on the HPAG Facebook page are truly awful and the losses people have had and the behaviour of the sites. Including the big names, is appalling.

    Park Homes are regulated. Holiday homes are not.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,309
    glw said:

    I would have thought that even Farage is smart enough to know that if Musk becomes the leviathan donor to Reform that every time Musk posts some racist conspiracy, libellous comment, or simply demonstrates his incredible ignorance about the UK then Farage will be asked to defend it. And Musk is already way off the deep end and getting crazier by the day.
    Hmm. I actually think he has a blind spot where Trump and Trump-adjacent folk are concerned. He has pretty much gone all-in since the election as being the Hon. Member for Mar-a-Lago. I dont think people care about that as much as some of his opponents would like to think they do, but it does make him a hostage to fortune somewhat.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,835
    kinabalu said:

    People do sometimes succumb to a misty-eyed sense of identification with their 'nation' or their 'people'. I guess this is where the far right would claim that what they offer to their followers is 'deep'.

    Mm. I have an essay of (actually only slightly political) thoughts on this to unpick with you here, Kinners, which I'd be fascinated to dig into your views on - but it must wait for another day because I'm off in ten minutes to the in-laws' to meet my gigantic infant nephew (along with several other less surprisingly-sized in-laws).

    Have a nice afternoon everyone :smile:
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635

    It has been suggested that Musk is trying to make up with the MAGA crowd after they rowed over H1b visas, but it may just be Musk being a nutter.
    Why would the MAGA crowd, who tend to be quite insular from what I see, care about it. I think he’s just becoming more and more bizarre.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849
    Taz said:

    Musk, from his feed today, certainly doesn’t seem to have mastered the skill of where to stop
    He’s Asperger’s - self confessed - and he has many classic traits. One of them is a tin ear, saying the wrong thing, going way too far and not reading the room. This could be another example, he is certainly ranting

    However this is not just Musk. This issue has
    exploded on social media partly because so many people in the USA, EU, elsewhere were honestly unaware of the existence and epic scale of the grooming gang scandal - and they are stupefied and outraged and bewildered how Britain has, apparently, reacted with an apathetic shrug. People - not Musk - are comparing it to war crimes

    The origin of the explosion was the release on social media of some of the most horrifying evidence in one particular case
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,580

    So she's advocating a national enquiry to cover all the old ground previous enquiries have covered which have worked to implementations already.

    A national enquiry that would cost hundreds of millions and years to achieve what exactly.

    She is not offering an ounce of common sense just playing juvenile debating games.

    She's totally out of her depth.

    She says it's too early for policies but wants to chat for years about policies on this topic that are already being implemented
    Surely Starmer's answer should be: "I quite agree with the Hon Lady; the fact that previous administrations have ignored for so long is shameful. I look forward to her Party's full co-operation with the Inquiry which will be set up shortly."
  • Shecorns88Shecorns88 Posts: 374

    I am not finding this Leon incarnation particularly amusing.
    I have feck all to do with Leon
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849

    I have feck all to do with Leon
    I can confirm this. The allegation is tedious and insulting to @Shecorns88
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,951

    When the big bust up between Elon and Donald happens I'll probably side with Donald. Who wouldn't? It's got that bad.

    Can’t one wish both of them to lose? Like the Iran-Iraq war.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635
    Leon said:

    I can confirm this. The allegation is tedious and insulting to @Shecorns88
    Agreed, shecorns88 is the standard we should aspire to.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,731
    Taz said:

    Why would the MAGA crowd, who tend to be quite insular from what I see, care about it. I think he’s just becoming more and more bizarre.
    I agree with you about Musk becoming more and more bizarre.

    I understand Tommy Robinson is a big hit with the MAGA crowd. Musk can signal he’s racist and hates the right people after the MAGA crowd were upset he wasn’t being racist towards Indians.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849
    edited January 3
    Taz said:

    Agreed, shecorns88 is the standard we should aspire to.
    I enjoy @Shecorns88’s comments. I see them as a kind of free form political poetry
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    kinabalu said:

    I get you but I'm not quite there (yet). Trump has no redeeming features, not a single one, and that is pretty special. Least Musk does his cars and rockets.
    Trump's redeeming features, within context, are that he's an obese late-Septugenarian who's intellectually lazy. If the world fed him a constant diet of hamburgers, porn actresses and media reviews - whether real or faked - he'd be no threat to the world. The main reason he wants to be president now, apart from the glamour and adulation, is immunity.

    By contrast, Musk not only wants to do actually stuff but has shown extraordinary ability to. Whether that ability is a transferable skill into politics is another matter.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782

    I think people are entitled to raise criticisms of her past statements (or lack thereof) or performance on any issue they want. Same as they are entitled to criticise Jess Phillips and a whole host of Labour politicians who seem to have curiously forgotten some of the things they said in opposition once they got their feet under the table.

    It shouldn’t de-legitimise or prevent her from calling for things though, I agree.
    Of course not.

    But it provides context to ask how this enquiry would be different from the IICSA enquiry already held, and what would be its purpose.
    https://www.iicsa.org.uk

    What does she mean by "long overdue". and "joining the dots" ?

    None of this was explained in either her statements, or the subsequent interviews with her shadow cabinet members.

    "Calling for an enquiry" is just a cheap soundbite. Any such thing would likely take the rest of this parliament, and cost £100m plus.
    If it's a serious suggestion, then put forward a serious case for it.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,333



    I have feck all to do with Leon

    The collective Fregoli Syndrome is very tedious.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214

    Hmm. I actually think he has a blind spot where Trump and Trump-adjacent folk are concerned. He has pretty much gone all-in since the election as being the Hon. Member for Mar-a-Lago. I dont think people care about that as much as some of his opponents would like to think they do, but it does make him a hostage to fortune somewhat.
    There is a meaningful portion of the UK electorate who do approve of / back Trump, and a lot of them already vote Reform. Farage aligning himself there makes a fair deal of political sense (though *is* a hostage to fortune: opinions can and do change).

    As for a £100m donation from Musk. Well, yes, that too is a hostage to fortune but it'd be enough to keep Reform running for years. Farage could cut ties if necessary later on. Musk won't ask for his money back - and if he did Farage wouldn't have to comply.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,367
    Taz said:

    Ruddy hell. Musks feed today. He’s losing it, he really is. I do get how the grooming gangs issue and the institutional cover ups looks to those on the outside but some of his comments are just so wide of left field. His comment about Jess Phillips, a politician I personally have no time for at all, is appalling. He’s just playing to the gallery now.

    He's a nut, and if he's so concerned about sexual abuse why did he bankroll Trump?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,731
    Nigelb said:

    Of course not.

    But it provides context to ask how this enquiry would be different from the IICSA enquiry already held, and what would be its purpose.
    https://www.iicsa.org.uk

    What does she mean by "long overdue". and "joining the dots" ?

    None of this was explained in either her statements, or the subsequent interviews with her shadow cabinet members.

    "Calling for an enquiry" is just a cheap soundbite. Any such thing would likely take the rest of this parliament, and cost £100m plus.
    If it's a serious suggestion, then put forward a serious case for it.
    Or indeed how this enquiry would be a different to the 2020 review “Group-based Child Sexual Exploitation: Characteristics of Offending” commissioned by Priti Patel, https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5fd87e348fa8f54d5733f532/Group-based_CSE_Paper.pdf
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,731
    glw said:

    He's a nut, and if he's so concerned about sexual abuse why did he bankroll Trump?
    Musk also praised the choice of Matt Gaetz for Attorney General, who f***ed an underage prostitute.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399
    Dura_Ace said:

    About the same linguistic distance as Spanish/Portuguese, the transliteration differences are largely a matter of tradition and whether the words come to English via German or not.

    The Ukrainian alphabet has four letters that Russian doesn't and Russian has two letters and one non-phonetic orthographic device (tvyordiy znak lit. "hard sign") that Ukrainian doesn't.

    Ukrainian: ґ, є, ї, і
    Russian: ы, ё, ъ

    I wrote a bit about it here which the Ultras didn't care for.

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4314301#Comment_4314301
    As I was the only person who responded to that post, I assume you are referring to me as an 'Ultra'

    LOL.

    Look in the mirror, mate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782

    Trump's redeeming features, within context, are that he's an obese late-Septugenarian who's intellectually lazy. If the world fed him a constant diet of hamburgers, porn actresses and media reviews - whether real or faked - he'd be no threat to the world. The main reason he wants to be president now, apart from the glamour and adulation, is immunity.

    By contrast, Musk not only wants to do actually stuff but has shown extraordinary ability to. Whether that ability is a transferable skill into politics is another matter.
    We'll find out soon enough.
    But he can't be taking his freelance Trump Admin role all that seriously if he's spending time getting involved in UK political spats.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782
    Nigelb said:

    At least one MAGA loon won't vote to confirm the GOP Speaker.

    Safe to say Speaker Johnson has one hard no.

    “You can pull all my fingernails out. You can shove bamboo up in them. You can start cutting off my fingers. I am not voting for Mike Johnson tomorrow, and you can take that to the bank. @RepThomasMassie

    https://x.com/sahilkapur/status/1875015234353778776

    Massie might be a loon, but he does have the facility to turn a phrase.

    "I thought they were voting for libertarian Republicans," Massie said of the Republican voters who had delivered the Tea Party victories. "But after some soul-searching, I realized when they voted for Rand and Ron [Paul] and me in these primaries, they weren't voting for libertarian ideas. They were voting for the craziest son of a bitch in the race. And Donald Trump won best in class."
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,191
    Leon said:

    He’s Asperger’s - self confessed - and he has many classic traits. One of them is a tin ear, saying the wrong thing, going way too far and not reading the room. This could be another example, he is certainly ranting

    However this is not just Musk. This issue has
    exploded on social media partly because so many people in the USA, EU, elsewhere were honestly unaware of the existence and epic scale of the grooming gang scandal - and they are stupefied and outraged and bewildered how Britain has, apparently, reacted with an apathetic shrug. People - not Musk - are comparing it to war crimes

    The origin of the explosion was the release on social media of some of the most horrifying evidence in one particular case
    In fairness, what has been disclosed in respect of these prosecutions and the various reports on the matter is a subject of national and indeed international shame.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849
    Nigelb said:

    We'll find out soon enough.
    But he can't be taking his freelance Trump Admin role all that seriously if he's spending time getting involved in UK political spats.
    On the other hand, Elon has just praised Kemi Badenoch (for her inquiry call). So maybe the Tories will get the £100m. It certainly won’t be Starmer

    Musk’s fascination with British politics seems to be quite genuine, if somewhat unhinged. He sometimes tweets more about UK politics than US politics
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399
    Leon said:

    On the other hand, Elon has just praised Kemi Badenoch (for her inquiry call). So maybe the Tories will get the £100m. It certainly won’t be Starmer

    Musk’s fascination with British politics seems to be quite genuine, if somewhat unhinged. He sometimes tweets more about UK politics than US politics
    Only since the general election.

    I wonder what changed...? ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849
    DavidL said:

    In fairness, what has been disclosed in respect of these prosecutions and the various reports on the matter is a subject of national and indeed international shame.
    It really really is. Which is why we DO need some kind of inquiry. But it has to be different to all the others, which were various mixtures of half-arsed can-kicking, whitewashing or “what can you do”

    We need more of a national catharsis. This is like Britain’s Chernobyl and we need to address it. Somehow
  • Leon said:

    On the other hand, Elon has just praised Kemi Badenoch (for her inquiry call). So maybe the Tories will get the £100m. It certainly won’t be Starmer

    Musk’s fascination with British politics seems to be quite genuine, if somewhat unhinged. He sometimes tweets more about UK politics than US politics
    To be fair, we are quite fascinated with American politics.

    Given the common language and the Internet it shouldn't be too surprising that people spending too long online end of interested in the other nations politics.

    Plus British politics has always been more interesting to Americans (because of language/history) than any other nation. See how many references there are to British politics and society in We Didn't Start The Fire for example.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,818

    Musk also praised the choice of Matt Gaetz for Attorney General, who f***ed an underage prostitute.
    Lionised him as The Hammer Of Justice.

    Which taken in a different way is what he could well have been.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782
    Leon said:

    On the other hand, Elon has just praised Kemi Badenoch (for her inquiry call). So maybe the Tories will get the £100m. It certainly won’t be Starmer

    Musk’s fascination with British politics seems to be quite genuine, if somewhat unhinged. He sometimes tweets more about UK politics than US politics
    If only we hadn't voted for Brexit, we'd have that German Tesla factory in the UK, and a much happier relationship...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849

    Only since the general election.

    I wonder what changed...? ;)
    Not true. He’s been invested emotionally in UK politics for a while. There are various theories why - not least his British ancestry
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782
    I see the US just awarded BAE the contract for their mobile railgun.
    https://www.twz.com/land/railgun-ammo-firing-155mm-air-defense-cannon-set-to-be-awarded-to-bae-systems
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,859

    Musk also praised the choice of Matt Gaetz for Attorney General, who f***ed an underage prostitute.
    Do you think the age of consent in the UK is too low?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849

    To be fair, we are quite fascinated with American politics.

    Given the common language and the Internet it shouldn't be too surprising that people spending too long online end of interested in the other nations politics.

    Plus British politics has always been more interesting to Americans (because of language/history) than any other nation. See how many references there are to British politics and society in We Didn't Start The Fire for example.
    British media is OVERLY fascinated with American politics. It’s boring
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,986
    I see The Truss is now weighing in on the 'grooming gangs', saying that we need to restore the role of Lord Chancellor. That's an interesting angle to take. Why bring that up?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399

    Do you think the age of consent in the UK is too low?
    Do you?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399
    Leon said:

    Not true. He’s been invested emotionally in UK politics for a while. There are various theories why - not least his British ancestry
    True - look at his Twix output.
  • Leon said:

    British media is OVERLY fascinated with American politics. It’s boring
    Considering that American politics and economics seriously affects Britain, I don't think it's overly anything.

    America sneezes and Europe catches a cold is as true as its ever been.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,191
    Leon said:

    British media is OVERLY fascinated with American politics. It’s boring
    It is particularly tiresome that so few of them seem to be capable of explaining or even speaking to the 50% of the population who voted for Trump. We get a distinctly liberal, coastal view and it is seriously misleading.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    Nigelb said:

    We'll find out soon enough.
    But he can't be taking his freelance Trump Admin role all that seriously if he's spending time getting involved in UK political spats.
    I get the impression that he'd like to be King of the World. His role in the Trump govt is just one part of that; it's never been his limit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782

    Do you think the age of consent in the UK is too low?
    Buying sex with an individual under 18 is illegal in the UK.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849

    Considering that American politics and economics seriously affects Britain, I don't think it's overly anything.

    America sneezes and Europe catches a cold is as true as its ever been.
    But we take relatively trivial events from the USA and make them headline news in the UK. It’s pathological and dull
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,333
    Nigelb said:

    If only we hadn't voted for Brexit, we'd have that German Tesla factory in the UK, and a much happier relationship...
    I doubt that. Tesla are in Berlin so they can poach engineering talent from BMW and Porsche at Leipzig.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Nigelb said:

    At least one MAGA loon won't vote to confirm the GOP Speaker.

    Safe to say Speaker Johnson has one hard no.

    “You can pull all my fingernails out. You can shove bamboo up in them. You can start cutting off my fingers. I am not voting for Mike Johnson tomorrow, and you can take that to the bank. @RepThomasMassie

    https://x.com/sahilkapur/status/1875015234353778776

    Increasingly looks like Johnson doesn’t have the numbers. The question is, does anyone else? Can Trump persuade the whole party to get behind someone he endorses, once Johnson loses the vote?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849
    DavidL said:

    It is particularly tiresome that so few of them seem to be capable of explaining or even speaking to the 50% of the population who voted for Trump. We get a distinctly liberal, coastal view and it is seriously misleading.
    Very good point. All we get is the Jon Sopel worldview - the east/west coast liberal. So even tho our media is pitifully obsessed with American politics they STILL manage to be ill-informed. Worst of all worlds
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,354
    edited January 3
    DavidL said:

    In fairness, what has been disclosed in respect of these prosecutions and the various reports on the matter is a subject of national and indeed international shame.
    Yep, I wish England all the best in coming to terms with this ‘Chernobyl’* of national shame and unhappy self examination.

    *no prizes for guessing which PBer hyperbolised this metaphor into existence.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017
    Leon said:

    On the other hand, Elon has just praised Kemi Badenoch (for her inquiry call). So maybe the Tories will get the £100m. It certainly won’t be Starmer

    Musk’s fascination with British politics seems to be quite genuine, if somewhat unhinged. He sometimes tweets more about UK politics than US politics

    The way Musk is going I would not be surprised if Starmer does end up getting some money from him. Jess Philips too.

  • Afternoon PBers.

    Britain is inevitably intertwined with
    America, but we need more French and German influence to balance this.

    Our films have become far more
    anglo-american in tone, sometimes optimistically, and sometimes banally, and our televisual culture is now the missing the sophistication of Continental Europe, that it could frequently match in the 1980's. European politics also gets shallow coverage in the British media.

    We need to remember to find the balance between Anerican expansiveness and European
    sophistication again.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782

    I get the impression that he'd like to be King of the World. His role in the Trump govt is just one part of that; it's never been his limit.
    Jeez, not another one.
    At least Boris was skint. This one could go on for ages.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,354
    Dura_Ace said:

    I doubt that. Tesla are in Berlin so they can poach engineering talent from BMW and Porsche at Leipzig.
    But surely Tesla would be similarly poaching engineering talent from Brita…oh, I see.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,309
    edited January 3

    I see The Truss is now weighing in on the 'grooming gangs', saying that we need to restore the role of Lord Chancellor. That's an interesting angle to take. Why bring that up?

    I have not seen the latest missive from La Truss, but it might be something to do with the fact that the Lord Chancellor used to occupy a very weird role straddling government, the judiciary and the HoL. One wonders if what she is getting at is she’d like the government to exert more control over the judiciary.

    Of course, the Lord Chancellor still exists (Tony Blair realised the role couldn’t be abolished by executive fiat, once he tried to do so), it’s just that it lost a lot of its weird hybrid role and now is attached to the position of Justice Secretary.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,238
    Leon said:

    It really really is. Which is why we DO need some kind of inquiry. But it has to be different to all the others, which were various mixtures of half-arsed can-kicking, whitewashing or “what can you do”

    We need more of a national catharsis. This is like Britain’s Chernobyl and we need to address it. Somehow
    No.

    We don't need to learn lessons. We don't need to move forward. We don't need racism, pogroms or any other damn stupid thing.

    1) We need to prosecute absolutely everyone on the basis of "do the crime, do the time" - this is being done
    2) The enablers (police, social services etc) of the crimes hide behind procedure and the destruction of evidence. Fine. Put them all on the relevant sex offenders registry. All the Home Sec needs to do is sign at the bottom of a list of names. No recourse to the courts.

    2) will ensure that no-one covers up an allegation for a generation. Then we will probably need to repeat.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782
    Dura_Ace said:

    I doubt that. Tesla are in Berlin so they can poach engineering talent from BMW and Porsche at Leipzig.
    I think he might well have gone for the UK's more compliant (in this particular case) planning. And we'd probably have bunged him more cash.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    MattW said:

    Hmm. I was sponsored through University by an Engineering Company, on a thin sandwich course.

    The word from the company was that they had more than made their investment back just from the work done by the sponsored students in the industrial periods. Plus they got the chance to keep a dozen students per year on our site who would not need the traditional 12 month run-in period to become a positive, since we had all already been in about 15 departments and were ingrained with the culture and practice.

    It's circumstances and cases I think. I can see that an airline pilot would be substantially greater for both risk and return.
    What the airlines normally sponsor is a ‘type rating’, that qualifies a pilot to fly a specific type of aircraft (B737, A320 etc). This costs something like £30k, even though it’s almost all in the classroom and simulator, with the work in the real plane allowed to be done under supervision on commercial flights.

    They want you to stay typically for three years in exchange for this.

    Sadly the days of airlines sponsoring flight training from scratch are mostly in the past. BA did until a few years ago offer 100 annual commercial licence (c.£150k) scholarships - which typically attracted 25,000 applications, many of whom had family contacts and already a private pilots’ licence, so good luck with that!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,238
    Nigelb said:

    I think he might well have gone for the UK's more compliant (in this particular case) planning. And we'd probably have bunged him more cash.
    Merkel (it has been said) made it clear that if Tesla chose outside the EU (UK), then Germany would push to tax the cars as foreign imports.

    She wanted the shock value of Tesla appearing in Germany to wake up the German auto manufacturers out of the their slumber regarding EVs. Didn't work (sufficiently).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782
    Leon said:

    Very good point. All we get is the Jon Sopel worldview - the east/west coast liberal. So even tho our media is pitifully obsessed with American politics they STILL manage to be ill-informed. Worst of all worlds
    No we don't.
    We get the Justin Webb worldview, which is just uninformed in all respects.

    Sarah Smith - who took over from Sopel some three years back (and is a bit better than Webb) - reports on MAGA quite a lot.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    MattW said:

    This is going to be a long-term story - static caravan owners being fleeced by site operators operating rules which are questionable.

    I don't know if we have any static van owners on PB; the sector is a bit of a wild west. I had one friend who had one that she rented out; she came through intact but it took a lot of careful navigation of site owner demands.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gmy7xjewko

    You’d be way better off buying a canal boat than a static caravan under one of those contracts.

    How many people took the advice of a solicitor with relevant experience, before writing five-figure cheques for these static caravans?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849

    No.

    We don't need to learn lessons. We don't need to move forward. We don't need racism, pogroms or any other damn stupid thing.

    1) We need to prosecute absolutely everyone on the basis of "do the crime, do the time" - this is being done
    2) The enablers (police, social services etc) of the crimes hide behind procedure and the destruction of evidence. Fine. Put them all on the relevant sex offenders registry. All the Home Sec needs to do is sign at the bottom of a list of names. No recourse to the courts.

    2) will ensure that no-one covers up an allegation for a generation. Then we will probably need to repeat.
    What, you want to put thousands of coppers, politicians, councillors, civil servants… on a sex offenders registry. Just like that. And this will sort it out?

    No, what we need is a truly independent inquiry - taken away from the Home Office, police, councils, government. Put someone like Maggie Oliver in charge, and give her wide ranging powers. She’s one of the brave and original whistleblowers

    Honestly the spectacle Britain is presenting on social media right now is shameful and grotesque. It’s not just Musk - it’s people in Italy and France and Australia and everywhere staring in horrified amazement at what happened. In our country
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    Nigelb said:

    Jeez, not another one.
    At least Boris was skint. This one could go on for ages.
    He potentially could do it though, after a fashion. In theory anyway. I don't think he has the skills to, and even if he did, puppet-mastering dictators is no simple matter. But the first thing is to get them all on the same page and then write the public out of it. He's not a million miles from there.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,238
    Sandpit said:

    What the airlines normally sponsor is a ‘type rating’, that qualifies a pilot to fly a specific type of aircraft (B737, A320 etc). This costs something like £30k, even though it’s almost all in the classroom and simulator, with the work in the real plane allowed to be done under supervision on commercial flights.

    They want you to stay typically for three years in exchange for this.

    Sadly the days of airlines sponsoring flight training from scratch are mostly in the past. BA did until a few years ago offer 100 annual commercial licence (c.£150k) scholarships - which typically attracted 25,000 applications, many of whom had family contacts and already a private pilots’ licence, so good luck with that!
    See the hideous "pay to fly" stuff some of the lower cost airlines are using.

    Yes, your pilot may have a mortgage worth of money he's invested in learning to fly, and actual pay that doesn't cover that (really). He's somewhat stressed about it. What could go wrong?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399
    When it comes to inquiries not being forgotten, I would pass a law stating that the government has to respond within a month of the report's publication, stating how they are moving forwards with every single recommendation within the report, and a date for completion.

    They might say: "We disagree with this recommendation," or "this recommendation is already covered by xyz". But at least then it will be clear what the government thinks, and progress can at least be tracked, and we can see if it is going down /dev/null
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,238
    Leon said:

    What, you want to put thousands of coppers, politicians, councillors, civil servants… on a sex offenders registry. Just like that. And this will sort it out?

    No, what we need is a truly independent inquiry - taken away from the Home Office, police, councils, government. Put someone like Maggie Oliver in charge, and give her wide ranging powers. She’s one of the brave and original whistleblowers

    Honestly the spectacle Britain is presenting on social media right now is shameful and grotesque. It’s not just Musk - it’s people in Italy and France and Australia and everywhere staring in horrified amazement at what happened. In our country

    What, you want to put thousands of coppers, politicians, councillors, civil servants… on a sex offenders registry. Just like that. And this will sort it out?


    Yes. Because, suddenly, a way to punish the actually guilty will appear.

    Especially, since one effect of being put on such registers is that they will risk having their own children taken into care.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    Leon said:

    What, you want to put thousands of coppers, politicians, councillors, civil servants… on a sex offenders registry. Just like that. And this will sort it out?

    No, what we need is a truly independent inquiry - taken away from the Home Office, police, councils, government. Put someone like Maggie Oliver in charge, and give her wide ranging powers. She’s one of the brave and original whistleblowers

    Honestly the spectacle Britain is presenting on social media right now is shameful and grotesque. It’s not just Musk - it’s people in Italy and France and Australia and everywhere staring in horrified amazement at what happened. In our country
    And we are horrified at the Vatican and Aborgines child sex scandals and the French drug rape gang.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,986
    Out of interest, did anyone anywhere call for a public inquiry into the 'grooming gangs' before this week? I could be wrong but I've no recollection of it ever being mentioned. That's odd considering it's now being regarded as a panacea. Was there some sort of weird mass myopia at play?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,731

    When it comes to inquiries not being forgotten, I would pass a law stating that the government has to respond within a month of the report's publication, stating how they are moving forwards with every single recommendation within the report, and a date for completion.

    They might say: "We disagree with this recommendation," or "this recommendation is already covered by xyz". But at least then it will be clear what the government thinks, and progress can at least be tracked, and we can see if it is going down /dev/null

    They’d just write lots of “we’re looking into how to implement this” stuff. It would be another pointless law for show.

    What you need is opposition politicians ready to do the hard graft of holding the government to account when they fail to follow recommendations. What you don’t need is Farage or Badenoch echoing social media froth.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    Leon said:

    But we take relatively trivial events from the USA and make them headline news in the UK. It’s pathological and dull
    Of which a perfect example in yesterday's BBC bulletins. The street terrorism in New Orleans was top story and was given 8 minutes on the 8am report (plus later interviews, correspondent reports and what passes for analysis). The murders of a similar number of people in Montenegro was given 20 seconds, with no on-the-ground reporter. The flooding across large parts of northern England - a domestic story affecting millions, albeit mostly at a low level of traffic disruption) wasn't mentioned at all.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,222

    But that would mean that vast numbers of Proper Generalist Managers and Consultants would have nothing to do. Without 600 page reports full of bullshit, their lives would have no meaning.

    They might go all MAGA, or something.
    No, because there is no right answer to the question. Why do our schoolchildren need to know how Oxbow lakes are formed? Past primary-level 3Rs, we have made some almost arbitrary choices. Most subjects taught only really matter to specialists and might just as easily be left for university.

    Why physics, chemistry and biology rather than, say, geology, engineering and computer science? Why history instead of sociology? Look at modern languages, where German has been displaced by Spanish. Or the on-off nature of Classics.

    And while we are here, let us remember teachers are not experts in learning: psychologists are.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    biggles said:

    I had one for a bit. Site owner was a proper little Napoleon and fleeced everyone for what she could take. I went in with my eyes open and got what I wanted from it, but nothing would please me more than to see her bankrupted, paying our compensation.
    Sounds rather similar to the retirement home issues, where there’s a massive difference between the buy price and the sell price which isn’t obviously evident without a lot of reading the small print.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,238

    Out of interest, did anyone anywhere call for a public inquiry into the 'grooming gangs' before this week? I could be wrong but I've no recollection of it ever being mentioned. That's odd considering it's now being regarded as a panacea. Was there some sort of weird mass myopia at play?

    Multiple enquires at various scales, over the years. @Cyclefree can probably give you a list that will exceed the max length of a PB post.

    I can sum them up for you

    1) Bad stuff happened
    2) People did nothing for a hard to define set of reasons.
    3) Not enough evidence for the people at (2) to even be spoken to harshly. Except some junior people who were following instructions.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,849

    Of which a perfect example in yesterday's BBC bulletins. The street terrorism in New Orleans was top story and was given 8 minutes on the 8am report (plus later interviews, correspondent reports and what passes for analysis). The murders of a similar number of people in Montenegro was given 20 seconds, with no on-the-ground reporter. The flooding across large parts of northern England - a domestic story affecting millions, albeit mostly at a low level of traffic disruption) wasn't mentioned at all.
    Yes. It’s one reason I’ve essentially abandoned BBC News
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,268
    Y Doethur - Have you, by any chance, read some of the better critiques of American education, for example, "The War Against Boys" by Christina Hoff Sommers, or "Our Underachieving Colleges" by Derek Bok?

    (The Afterword in the second illustrates the problem, unintentionally, I assume. Bok was called in to be president of Harvard again, replacing a controversial predecessor, who had said something that is true. Bok never mentions what got his predecessor fired.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,782
    Regarding the sudden interest from the US in European politics, I missed this from yesterday.
    Is Vance a liar, or just ignorant ?

    I’m not endorsing a party in the German elections, as it’s not my country and we hope to have good relations with all Germans. But this is an interesting piece.

    Also interesting; American media slanders AfD as Nazi-lite, But AfD is most popular in the same areas of Germany that were most resistant to the Nazis.

    https://x.com/JDVance/status/1874894133862769149
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,986

    When it comes to inquiries not being forgotten, I would pass a law stating that the government has to respond within a month of the report's publication, stating how they are moving forwards with every single recommendation within the report, and a date for completion.

    They might say: "We disagree with this recommendation," or "this recommendation is already covered by xyz". But at least then it will be clear what the government thinks, and progress can at least be tracked, and we can see if it is going down /dev/null

    Rory and Al were recently musing on TRIP about the recommendations of public inquiries. Seems that they're completely ignored more often than they're implemented.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,846

    But surely Tesla would be similarly poaching engineering talent from Brita…oh, I see.
    Seems niche to poach talent from a water filter jug company.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,731

    Multiple enquires at various scales, over the years. @Cyclefree can probably give you a list that will exceed the max length of a PB post.

    I can sum them up for you

    1) Bad stuff happened
    2) People did nothing for a hard to define set of reasons.
    3) Not enough evidence for the people at (2) to even be spoken to harshly. Except some junior people who were following instructions.
    That is not what the various inquiries said. They made multiple concrete recommendations. They provided a bunch of answers.

    What the inquiries didn’t say, however, is that it’s all the fault of Muslims. Some will keep calling for inquiries until they get that answer.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,399

    They’d just write lots of “we’re looking into how to implement this” stuff. It would be another pointless law for show.

    What you need is opposition politicians ready to do the hard graft of holding the government to account when they fail to follow recommendations. What you don’t need is Farage or Badenoch echoing social media froth.
    They would have a month to say how they are going to implement it, and they have to give a date for completion. The latter is the important part, as it gives another date for people to concentrate on. And I think a month is fair, as many recommendations reports are going to make can be discerned as an inquiry progresses.

    AIUI this often happens after RAIB reports, although by agreement and negotiation, not law.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    Nigelb said:

    Regarding the sudden interest from the US in European politics, I missed this from yesterday.
    Is Vance a liar, or just ignorant ?

    I’m not endorsing a party in the German elections, as it’s not my country and we hope to have good relations with all Germans. But this is an interesting piece.

    Also interesting; American media slanders AfD as Nazi-lite, But AfD is most popular in the same areas of Germany that were most resistant to the Nazis.

    https://x.com/JDVance/status/1874894133862769149

    No. He is both.
  • Of which a perfect example in yesterday's BBC bulletins. The street terrorism in New Orleans was top story and was given 8 minutes on the 8am report (plus later interviews, correspondent reports and what passes for analysis). The murders of a similar number of people in Montenegro was given 20 seconds, with no on-the-ground reporter. The flooding across large parts of northern England - a domestic story affecting millions, albeit mostly at a low level of traffic disruption) wasn't mentioned at all.
    Likewise, and at the other end of the scale, French politics and society only tend to get much coverage at moments of crisis, or election.

    The result is that British people often have the wholly false view that France is in a permanent state of unsustainable crisis, while America is
    more multi-dimensional.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,568
    edited January 3
    Cookie said:

    Your argument seems to be that it's an either/or: that the current world of periodic atrocities across the western world perpetuated by Islamic terrorists, peppered by background grimness exemplified by Rochdale and rape parties in Cologne and the like, is the price we must pay because the alternative is that someone like Trump or worse takes over. Is that right?

    If so, my reaction would be that it doesn't have to be either/or. Ideally, the current mainstream parties would try to do something about the current unpleasantness. If we end up with Trumps and mini-Trumps and worse throughout the western world, it will be because the mainstream parties have given up trying to address these issues, and voters see no alternative.

    Of course, I do agree with you that I would rather have even this current government which, rubbish though it is, is largely obeying democratic norms, than a Trump-like one. But come on, western establishments - just try to give the impression that you're on your populations' sides.

    I don't think the argument made by the side you are arguing against, except in a very few cases, is that "we must have Trumps and mini-Trumps". It's that the level of establishment complacency is so astonishingly large, the denial of the problems we face is so great, that it's unsurprising that the non-establishment parties are attracting more interest.

    Strong agree that it simply cannot be either/or.

    But, mainstream solutions should always be about facts. After 9/11 so many loopholes were closed that terrorist tactics evolved into low grade attacks, we put the barriers in the minimise car attacks (and recent ones need looking at wrt weaknesses at ingress points). There is always more, as with all criminality it is a mix of whackamole and trying to stay ahead.

    We are likely better now at looking at the abuse of those in care, which isn't to say that much, but at least we prosecute people these days, 40-50 years ago when the main abuse of kids in care was by white yeomen, most of those died free men. On this cycle it does seem to be very predominantly Asian Muslim men in northern towns (although I think the willingness to prosecute such cases as large trials with all the chain of perpetrators, but I cannot think where the same joint enterprise has been done for the abusers of trafficked girls and women, which may result in more varied sets of accusees, may bias this impression). And it needs addressing in the same way.

    But, for all we do, for all we are not helpless, we are not at the stage where we can call the next terrorist attack, and certainly not the next abuse cycle, a never event.

    So, there will be events the far right can hook onto, whether or not we are serious about this.

    I think there is an element of war upon mainstream politics and we need to up our game in delivery, but also get serious and militarise and win our response in the communications war.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,268
    FPT: I have long suspected that nearly all of Jeffrey Epstein's victims did not have fathers in their lives to protect them. If any major news organization investigated that question, I missed their findings.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited January 3
    Taz said:

    Musk, from his feed today, certainly doesn’t seem to have mastered the skill of where to stop
    At some point the Tesla shareholders are going to want to see him spending more time on his businesses, and less time shitposting driving engagement on Twitter. They need to react to the new Chinese competition, and lobbying Trump to introduce US tariffs on them isn’t going to be sufficient.
This discussion has been closed.