I am a live and let live kind of guy as you all know, but they will not be featuring on my Christmas table. Can't think where anyone finds the space in their stomach.
and that’s exactly why the question is a bad one. If you say it’s not “Acceptable” it implies that you would ban it or reject it if your grandmother offered it to you. Most people wouldn’t and hence they asset to the question.
Let everyone eat whatever they want and let's not judge others
I have cooked a turkey and just had our Christmas Eve meal which was excellent, but this is a result of our aging and not being able to attend our traditional family meal on Christmas day
This is the first Christmas of the 62 my wife and I have enjoyed together, that we will not be enjoying it with family, though they are all coming over in the morning
Tempus fugit and you adapt as times change, but our devotion to each other and our family is constant
I am oft reminder of the late Dave Allen who used to close his show with these lovely words
All these 18-24 folks saying "Don't know". Is that because they don't know what a Yorkshire pudding is?
What are schools even teaching thesedays?
Nothing if it is not on the syllabus. If it won't be on the test, teachers don't teach it and pupils are not interested. Hyperfocus on exams is one of the reasons for grade inflation.
Let everyone eat whatever they want and let's not judge others
I have cooked a turkey and just had our Christmas Eve meal which was excellent, but this is a result of our aging and not being able to attend our traditionsl family meal on Christmas day
This is the first Christmas of the 62 my wife and I have enjoyed together, that we will not be enjoying it with family, though they are all coming over in the morning
Tempus fugit and you adapt as times change, but our devotion to each other and our family is constant
I am oft reminder of the late Dave Allen who used to close his show with these lovely words
'May your God go with you'
Happy Christmas everyone
And to you, Big_G. With or without Yorkshire pudding.
No food is unacceptable at anytime. Food is supposed to be enjoyed and shared, in any combination that you like or have. Food snobbery is one of PBs worst traits.
Let everyone eat whatever they want and let's not judge others
I have cooked a turkey and just had our Christmas Eve meal which was excellent, but this is a result of our aging and not being able to attend our traditional family meal on Christmas day
This is the first Christmas of the 62 my wife and I have enjoyed together, that we will not be enjoying it with family, though they are all coming over in the morning
Tempus fugit and you adapt as times change, but our devotion to each other and our family is constant
I am oft reminder of the late Dave Allen who used to close his show with these lovely words
'May your God go with you'
Happy Christmas everyone
Happy Christmas, BigG.
Didn't Allen say "May your God go with you" because he was sceptical of religion?
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
Let everyone eat whatever they want and let's not judge others
I have cooked a turkey and just had our Christmas Eve meal which was excellent, but this is a result of our aging and not being able to attend our traditional family meal on Christmas day
This is the first Christmas of the 62 my wife and I have enjoyed together, that we will not be enjoying it with family, though they are all coming over in the morning
Tempus fugit and you adapt as times change, but our devotion to each other and our family is constant
I am oft reminder of the late Dave Allen who used to close his show with these lovely words
'May your God go with you'
Happy Christmas everyone
Happy Christmas, BigG.
Didn't Allen say "May your God go with you" because he was sceptical of religion?
To a degree but it is such a lovely sentiment and the world would be infinitely better if we let everyone to follow their God without prejudice or conflict
I am a live and let live kind of guy as you all know, but they will not be featuring on my Christmas table. Can't think where anyone finds the space in their stomach.
My daughter makes great Yorkshire puddings, and this is her way of contributing to the Christmas lunch, so we're a yes on this.
We shall be pairing it with both chicken and salmon. Chicken because my kids think Turkey is just for Thanksgiving, and I don't really care. Salmon, because my wife is a pescatarian.
Vegtables will be roast potatoes, squash and brussels sprouts.
Make sure it is wild salmon (not even whole foods is any good). Although I knew the issues intellectually, I’ve just finished Salmon Wars (about Cooke Aquaculture) and it really brings the issues to life
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
There are already two varieties of alternative bishop oversight in the Church of England, one for Anglo Catholics who take the traditional view on women priests, and one for Evangelicals ditto. This is two too many.
This means in fact that both ACs and Evos in the CoE are split between purists with their own bishops, and moderates who take on board, however doubtfully, the new rules allowing women priests.
Most actual parishes are just ordinary, non extreme, and contain a variety of views and accept the compromises of living with different views about everything. Alternative 'no gays' bishops would lead to there being 4 or 5 different sorts of bishops to choose from. It would split ACs, Evos and centrists into fragments.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
You've banned me from your church, even if I wanted to attend. No wonder churches are having trouble with attendance figures...
You are not banned at all
When someone says that you're not welcome at their church, then yes, I'd say that's the case.
Although I do wonder what his fellow parishioners would think of such an edict...
The congregation may be a 100 strong....you say unwelcome because one person out of a 100 says you are unwelcome?
There are many churches available. So yes: if I know one person, in one church, has specifically said I am unwelcome, I would go to another church. There is plenty of choice nowadays.
But anyway: this is the wrong time to be talking about such trivia. To all Christians out there; I hope you have a wonderful day tomorrow, and I hope the church services are uplifting and enjoyable. Also to them, and everyone else: I wish you all a lovely day, hopefully spent with friends and family. Which, in my view, is the true meaning of Christmas.
No food is unacceptable at anytime. Food is supposed to be enjoyed and shared, in any combination that you like or have. Food snobbery is one of PBs worst traits.
Yup, agree completely..along with pontificating about COVID, aliens , AI etc..😏
Spare a thought for those of us working in remote construction sites on fixed rotation cycles - which means tommorrow is just a normal working day. And dry....
Or you can hold that thought till end of January when I will take two weeks off on a tropical beach to spend a little of my tax-free salary on a lifestyle that would make Leon blush.....
Blimey.
My late brother worked as a commissioning engineer for GEC and then Alstom. He lived mostly abroad and entirely on expenses and his salary went into offshore bank accounts. His last project was a nuclear power station in Shenzhen in China where he picked up a virus that eventually killed him. Such is life.
The action specifies that the cost will not exceed $11.76 billion for Lot 18 jets, pegging the average price for the three F-35 variants at $81.1 million. Work on the jets is to be completed by June 2027. .
The new Syrian government is reportedly demanding reparations from … Iran.
Oh Dear, How Sad, Never Mind.
I can't see Russia's belated attempted lovebombing of the new Syrian government is going to be successful. Still, lovebombing is better than the bombing the Russians had been giving them.
No food is unacceptable at anytime. Food is supposed to be enjoyed and shared, in any combination that you like or have. Food snobbery is one of PBs worst traits.
Shared??? As an only child, sharing is an alien concept to me.
Spare a thought for those of us working in remote construction sites on fixed rotation cycles - which means tommorrow is just a normal working day. And dry....
Or you can hold that thought till end of January when I will take two weeks off on a tropical beach to spend a little of my tax-free salary on a lifestyle that would make Leon blush.....
Blimey.
My late brother worked as a commissioning engineer for GEC and then Alstom. He lived mostly abroad and entirely on expenses and his salary went into offshore bank accounts. His last project was a nuclear power station in Shenzhen in China where he picked up a virus that eventually killed him. Such is life.
I’m sorry to hear that. Life throws unexpected shit at you every so often.
The action specifies that the cost will not exceed $11.76 billion for Lot 18 jets, pegging the average price for the three F-35 variants at $81.1 million. Work on the jets is to be completed by June 2027. .
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
The action specifies that the cost will not exceed $11.76 billion for Lot 18 jets, pegging the average price for the three F-35 variants at $81.1 million. Work on the jets is to be completed by June 2027. .
What did Dura claim?
That the new AESA radar (along with other bits) is going to cost us around £80m per Typhoon. A program cost over a much smaller number of planes will do that. Cost of staying in the fighter business.
The action specifies that the cost will not exceed $11.76 billion for Lot 18 jets, pegging the average price for the three F-35 variants at $81.1 million. Work on the jets is to be completed by June 2027. .
What did Dura claim?
That the new AESA radar (along with other bits) is going to cost us around £80m per Typhoon. A program cost over a much smaller number of planes will do that. Cost of staying in the fighter business.
Ah thanks. If this is the same system, the program cost is £870 million, which means he thinks only ten or eleven airframes will be fitted? They are contracted to buy 40 or so T3s. It's possible that only ten will be upgraded, but it seems a low number.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Let everyone eat whatever they want and let's not judge others
I have cooked a turkey and just had our Christmas Eve meal which was excellent, but this is a result of our aging and not being able to attend our traditional family meal on Christmas day
This is the first Christmas of the 62 my wife and I have enjoyed together, that we will not be enjoying it with family, though they are all coming over in the morning
Tempus fugit and you adapt as times change, but our devotion to each other and our family is constant
I am oft reminder of the late Dave Allen who used to close his show with these lovely words
'May your God go with you'
Happy Christmas everyone
Happy Christmas North Wales, and everyone else.
And fwiw, no, but only because MrsPtP isn't keen, and we're having chicken anyway.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member!" - G. Marx.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
There are already two varieties of alternative bishop oversight in the Church of England, one for Anglo Catholics who take the traditional view on women priests, and one for Evangelicals ditto. This is two too many.
This means in fact that both ACs and Evos in the CoE are split between purists with their own bishops, and moderates who take on board, however doubtfully, the new rules allowing women priests.
Most actual parishes are just ordinary, non extreme, and contain a variety of views and accept the compromises of living with different views about everything. Alternative 'no gays' bishops would lead to there being 4 or 5 different sorts of bishops to choose from. It would split ACs, Evos and centrists into fragments.
This would be crazy.
May be they could chose the next ++cantab by PR?
The CofE already uses STV for its Synod elections.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
You've banned me from your church, even if I wanted to attend. No wonder churches are having trouble with attendance figures...
You are not banned at all
When someone says that you're not welcome at their church, then yes, I'd say that's the case.
Although I do wonder what his fellow parishioners would think of such an edict...
The congregation may be a 100 strong....you say unwelcome because one person out of a 100 says you are unwelcome?
There are many churches available. So yes: if I know one person, in one church, has specifically said I am unwelcome, I would go to another church. There is plenty of choice nowadays.
But anyway: this is the wrong time to be talking about such trivia. To all Christians out there; I hope you have a wonderful day tomorrow, and I hope the church services are uplifting and enjoyable. Also to them, and everyone else: I wish you all a lovely day, hopefully spent with friends and family. Which, in my view, is the true meaning of Christmas.
In my Father’s house there are many rooms. There’s even one at the far end of the corridor for HYFUD, so he won’t have to mingle with all those less pure than himself.
Today has been non stop. Red cabbage, Stuffing and mince pies made for tomorrow. Lots of wrapping. Making a Sourdough kit for my son as a joke present, but keeping the starter going (I have called it Cyril, but others prefer celebrity names such as Bread Sheeran and Bridget Bar-dough for their starter names) has been a challenger.
Anyway in case I am not around tomorrow - Happy Christmas everyone.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
Depends what you mean by the CoE. I have recently attended two services presided over by a gay vicar, both packed out by the way. The idea that CoE people disdain him is simply untrue, and his attenders are as much CoE as anyone else. But some people think they don't matter because they are just ordinary CoE people and not intellectuals, or leaders, or powerful.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
I worked out, 22 years ago, that the CoE has nothing but disdain for me. So, I left.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
I'm not sure where the boundary is between "Conservative Evangelicals" and "All the other Evangelicals" on this one.
It's in a different place to that around women priests or bishops.
I'm not even sure that CEEC are united on the question, or on the positions of their affiliate organisations, which cover quite a spectrum - which Wikipedia lists as:
Anglican Mainstream, Anglican Mission in England, Church Mission Society, Church Pastoral Aid Society, Church Society, Crosslinks, Reform, Fulcrum, and New Wine.
OTOH if CEEC are taking a position, then their affialiates would either support it, or support the right of other organisations to adopt it and expect a response.
Of course they are acceptable - as is any food... other than perhaps pineapple pizza. And in the spirit of Christmas, I might even countenance that.
In the US, of course, a beef roast is a more usual Xmas repast than is turkey.
Though oddly, they have not wholly adopted the Yorkshire pud.
I did have a Christmas Dinner pizza the other week. had a gravy base rather than a tomato one...
Twice in my life I've had pizza on Christmas Day.
First time I was knackered from work and my parents were overseas, so I had a frozen pizza.
Second time I was staying a hotel and everything on the dinner menu was unsuitable for a good Muslim boy like me so the chef created a nice pizza just for me.
I once had Burger King on Christmas Day. It felt thoroughly deviant;)
Rightly.
Actually I did too - one year when I was in London and feeling lonely / down. The only one I could think about to find open was at Heathrow Airport.
I am a live and let live kind of guy as you all know, but they will not be featuring on my Christmas table. Can't think where anyone finds the space in their stomach.
My daughter makes great Yorkshire puddings, and this is her way of contributing to the Christmas lunch, so we're a yes on this.
We shall be pairing it with both chicken and salmon. Chicken because my kids think Turkey is just for Thanksgiving, and I don't really care. Salmon, because my wife is a pescatarian.
Vegtables will be roast potatoes, squash and brussels sprouts.
Make sure it is wild salmon (not even whole foods is any good). Although I knew the issues intellectually, I’ve just finished Salmon Wars (about Cooke Aquaculture) and it really brings the issues to life
Mind you Corbyn Labour had significantly more members than May's Tories or even the Boris led Conservative Party did but it didn't help them win the 2017 or 2019 general election.
The fact is unless you want to be a councillor or MP/MSP/AM or have a strong sense of public service most people who join UK political parties now will be ideologues so it is hardly surprising that leftwing ideologues joined Corbyn's Labour Party as members en masse and rightwing ideologues are now joining Farage's Reform Party en masse
I'm a constituency party chair (Didcot and Wantage) and don't recognise your description - my impression is that most members are fairly unmotivated supporters of general left of centre politics. At election time they make an effort, in between they tolerate us ideologues. I do agree that the correlation between membership and winning is weak.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
I worked out, 22 years ago, that the CoE has nothing but disdain for me. So, I left.
Think yourself luck they used to invite people like me to involuntary bonfires and hangings
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
I worked out, 22 years ago, that the CoE has nothing but disdain for me. So, I left.
God squadders are frequently obsessed with other people's sex lives. It isn't healthy.
I'm reminded of the college don, quoted (maybe invented) by Alan Bennett in Beyond the Fringe who opined "I have no objection to homosexuality per se, only per me.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
Depends what you mean by the CoE. I have recently attended two services presided over by a gay vicar, both packed out by the way. The idea that CoE people disdain him is simply untrue, and his attenders are as much CoE as anyone else. But some people think they don't matter because they are just ordinary CoE people and not intellectuals, or leaders, or powerful.
The institution of the Church discriminates against gay people, the presence of the odd gay person here and there notwithstanding. Canon law refuses to recognise gay marriage. Because of chapters of the bible that I'm sure you can quote at me.
It is institutionally prejudiced.
You say it's only the leaders, but they are the leaders. Of the Church of England.
I am a live and let live kind of guy as you all know, but they will not be featuring on my Christmas table. Can't think where anyone finds the space in their stomach.
My daughter makes great Yorkshire puddings, and this is her way of contributing to the Christmas lunch, so we're a yes on this.
We shall be pairing it with both chicken and salmon. Chicken because my kids think Turkey is just for Thanksgiving, and I don't really care. Salmon, because my wife is a pescatarian.
Vegtables will be roast potatoes, squash and brussels sprouts.
Make sure it is wild salmon (not even whole foods is any good). Although I knew the issues intellectually, I’ve just finished Salmon Wars (about Cooke Aquaculture) and it really brings the issues to life
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
There are already two varieties of alternative bishop oversight in the Church of England, one for Anglo Catholics who take the traditional view on women priests, and one for Evangelicals ditto. This is two too many.
This means in fact that both ACs and Evos in the CoE are split between purists with their own bishops, and moderates who take on board, however doubtfully, the new rules allowing women priests.
Most actual parishes are just ordinary, non extreme, and contain a variety of views and accept the compromises of living with different views about everything. Alternative 'no gays' bishops would lead to there being 4 or 5 different sorts of bishops to choose from. It would split ACs, Evos and centrists into fragments.
This would be crazy.
In the Evangelical Constituency, the CEEC is important because aiui it has represented the main cross-evangelical forum in the CofE since the 1960s, and was founded by John Stott - who is probably even now the most significant evangelical figure in the CofE since WW2.
That list of affiliates have groups in it which manage the appointment process ('patronage') to nearly 1000 parishes (CPAS, Church Society - not sure about any of the other groups), which is the lynchpin maintaining the balance between diversity across CofE traditions, and continuity of such. @HYUFD may have more complete numbers.
This is potentially of historical importance in the recent history of the CofE, more so eg than the ructions caused by Reform over women priests in the early 1990s.
OTOH it's a report in the Times , where coverage of religion has not really been the same since they lost Ruth Gledhill as their correspondent.
This is my suggested brain teaser for anyone with an hour or so needing to be occupied - a site where you need to remember the names of all the London Tube stations, with no Googling or outside reference work.
You get a map of London with stations and lines geographically indicated, and a search box. DLR is included.
There are around 275 stations, and give yourself 60 minutes.
Since it's Christmas all the ratings are positive.
Good: 30% Very Good: 50% Heroic: 70%
I'll struggle with some of the newer stuff, since I have not spent time in London since the Elizabeth Line opened. OTOH I lived in London for 6-7 years in 5 or 6 different places, and walked many of the central areas.
50% is one every ~30 seconds. 70% is about one every 20-22 seconds. Above 50% is really good in the time, I think.
The action specifies that the cost will not exceed $11.76 billion for Lot 18 jets, pegging the average price for the three F-35 variants at $81.1 million. Work on the jets is to be completed by June 2027. .
What did Dura claim?
That the new AESA radar (along with other bits) is going to cost us around £80m per Typhoon. A program cost over a much smaller number of planes will do that. Cost of staying in the fighter business.
Ah thanks. If this is the same system, the program cost is £870 million, which means he thinks only ten or eleven airframes will be fitted? They are contracted to buy 40 or so T3s. It's possible that only ten will be upgraded, but it seems a low number.
From that article: … The deal covers design, development, demonstration and qualification and takes the radar to a production initial operating capability ready for integration into aircraft. The ECRS contract is the first part of a £2.35 billion investment plan unveiled by the British in mid-2022 to upgrade mission computers, jamming and other technologies on the RAF jets…
This is my suggested brain teaser for anyone with an hour or so needing to be occupied - a site where you need to remember the names of all the London Tube stations, with no Googling or outside reference work.
You get a map of London with stations and lines geographically indicated, and a search box. DLR is included.
There are around 275 stations, and give yourself 60 minutes.
Pah! London has a total of 612 stations in actual fact. Here they are:
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
Depends what you mean by the CoE. I have recently attended two services presided over by a gay vicar, both packed out by the way. The idea that CoE people disdain him is simply untrue, and his attenders are as much CoE as anyone else. But some people think they don't matter because they are just ordinary CoE people and not intellectuals, or leaders, or powerful.
The institution of the Church discriminates against gay people, the presence of the odd gay person here and there notwithstanding. Canon law refuses to recognise gay marriage. Because of chapters of the bible that I'm sure you can quote at me.
It is institutionally prejudiced.
You say it's only the leaders, but they are the leaders. Of the Church of England.
Adulterers, even the King, can be refused a wedding in a C of E church too, he only had a blessing in 2005 at St George's Chapel Windsor, the marriage service was at Windsor Guildhall.
At the end of the day it is the CHURCH of England not the REGISTRY OFFICE of England and has to follow the Bible's lead
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
The vast majority don't, the Southern Baptists in the US have no recognition for same sex couples at all and are the largest Protestant Baptist denomination globally
Mind you Corbyn Labour had significantly more members than May's Tories or even the Boris led Conservative Party did but it didn't help them win the 2017 or 2019 general election.
The fact is unless you want to be a councillor or MP/MSP/AM or have a strong sense of public service most people who join UK political parties now will be ideologues so it is hardly surprising that leftwing ideologues joined Corbyn's Labour Party as members en masse and rightwing ideologues are now joining Farage's Reform Party en masse
I'm a constituency party chair (Didcot and Wantage) and don't recognise your description - my impression is that most members are fairly unmotivated supporters of general left of centre politics. At election time they make an effort, in between they tolerate us ideologues. I do agree that the correlation between membership and winning is weak.
Anyway, happy Christmas all!
Yes but Labour membership is significantly down on where it was at the height of Corbyn's leadership even though Labour are in power now with Starmer but were in opposition with Corbyn
This is my suggested brain teaser for anyone with an hour or so needing to be occupied - a site where you need to remember the names of all the London Tube stations, with no Googling or outside reference work.
You get a map of London with stations and lines geographically indicated, and a search box. DLR is included.
There are around 275 stations, and give yourself 60 minutes.
Since it's Christmas all the ratings are positive.
Good: 30% Very Good: 50% Heroic: 70%
I'll struggle with some of the newer stuff, since I have not spent time in London since the Elizabeth Line opened. OTOH I lived in London for 6-7 years in 5 or 6 different places, and walked many of the central areas.
50% is one every ~30 seconds. 70% is about one every 20-22 seconds. Above 50% is really good in the time, I think.
The action specifies that the cost will not exceed $11.76 billion for Lot 18 jets, pegging the average price for the three F-35 variants at $81.1 million. Work on the jets is to be completed by June 2027. .
What did Dura claim?
That the new AESA radar (along with other bits) is going to cost us around £80m per Typhoon. A program cost over a much smaller number of planes will do that. Cost of staying in the fighter business.
Ah thanks. If this is the same system, the program cost is £870 million, which means he thinks only ten or eleven airframes will be fitted? They are contracted to buy 40 or so T3s. It's possible that only ten will be upgraded, but it seems a low number.
From that article: … The deal covers design, development, demonstration and qualification and takes the radar to a production initial operating capability ready for integration into aircraft. The ECRS contract is the first part of a £2.35 billion investment plan unveiled by the British in mid-2022 to upgrade mission computers, jamming and other technologies on the RAF jets…
£870m was just for development, not procurement.
When they were buying the P-8 Poseidon, the Usual Suspects quoted several hundred million to adapt the Stingray torpedo to the aircraft. Not to actually adapt them, mind. Just to work out what needed to be done
They were very upset when the Defence Minister at the time placed an order to rent some American Mk54s. Which came pre-qualified for the aircraft.
Strangely, they managed to drop the cost of the adaption by orders of magnitude.
I am a live and let live kind of guy as you all know, but they will not be featuring on my Christmas table. Can't think where anyone finds the space in their stomach.
My daughter makes great Yorkshire puddings, and this is her way of contributing to the Christmas lunch, so we're a yes on this.
We shall be pairing it with both chicken and salmon. Chicken because my kids think Turkey is just for Thanksgiving, and I don't really care. Salmon, because my wife is a pescatarian.
Vegtables will be roast potatoes, squash and brussels sprouts.
Make sure it is wild salmon (not even whole foods is any good). Although I knew the issues intellectually, I’ve just finished Salmon Wars (about Cooke Aquaculture) and it really brings the issues to life
The action specifies that the cost will not exceed $11.76 billion for Lot 18 jets, pegging the average price for the three F-35 variants at $81.1 million. Work on the jets is to be completed by June 2027. .
What did Dura claim?
That the new AESA radar (along with other bits) is going to cost us around £80m per Typhoon. A program cost over a much smaller number of planes will do that. Cost of staying in the fighter business.
Ah thanks. If this is the same system, the program cost is £870 million, which means he thinks only ten or eleven airframes will be fitted? They are contracted to buy 40 or so T3s. It's possible that only ten will be upgraded, but it seems a low number.
From that article: … The deal covers design, development, demonstration and qualification and takes the radar to a production initial operating capability ready for integration into aircraft. The ECRS contract is the first part of a £2.35 billion investment plan unveiled by the British in mid-2022 to upgrade mission computers, jamming and other technologies on the RAF jets…
£870m was just for development, not procurement.
Looking at that piece, there is at most a single F-35B for us there, as : Among the 145 jets included are:
48 F-35As for the Air Force 16 F-35B and 5 F-35C models for the Marine Corps 14 F-35C models for the Navy 15 F-35A and 1 F-35B models for F-35 program partners 39 F-35A and 7 F-35B models for Foreign Military Sales customers
And, looking elsewhere, we have a 9% workshare of the $11.76bn:
“Work will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas (57%); El Segundo, California (14%); Warton, United Kingdom (9%); Cameri, Italy (4%); Orlando, Florida (4%); Nashua, New Hampshire (3%); Baltimore, Maryland (3%); San Diego, California (2%); Nagoya, Japan (2%); and various locations outside the continental U.S. (2%),” the notice stated. https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/lockheed-contract-for-145-f-35-jets-some-work-for-uk/
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
I worked out, 22 years ago, that the CoE has nothing but disdain for me. So, I left.
About 65 years ago, I experienced much the same thing in a particular Church of England church, but the lesson I drew was different. We were definitely living on the wrong side of the tracks, on a council estate. All those people treating my parents like that lived in large houses which displayed Conservative signs, hence my lifelong prejudice against Conservatives.
It's a good long while since I realised it was just prejudice but the feeling is still there.
I am a live and let live kind of guy as you all know, but they will not be featuring on my Christmas table. Can't think where anyone finds the space in their stomach.
My daughter makes great Yorkshire puddings, and this is her way of contributing to the Christmas lunch, so we're a yes on this.
We shall be pairing it with both chicken and salmon. Chicken because my kids think Turkey is just for Thanksgiving, and I don't really care. Salmon, because my wife is a pescatarian.
Vegtables will be roast potatoes, squash and brussels sprouts.
Make sure it is wild salmon (not even whole foods is any good). Although I knew the issues intellectually, I’ve just finished Salmon Wars (about Cooke Aquaculture) and it really brings the issues to life
This is my suggested brain teaser for anyone with an hour or so needing to be occupied - a site where you need to remember the names of all the London Tube stations, with no Googling or outside reference work.
You get a map of London with stations and lines geographically indicated, and a search box. DLR is included.
There are around 275 stations, and give yourself 60 minutes.
Pah! London has a total of 612 stations in actual fact. Here they are:
This is my suggested brain teaser for anyone with an hour or so needing to be occupied - a site where you need to remember the names of all the London Tube stations, with no Googling or outside reference work.
You get a map of London with stations and lines geographically indicated, and a search box. DLR is included.
There are around 275 stations, and give yourself 60 minutes.
Since it's Christmas all the ratings are positive.
Good: 30% Very Good: 50% Heroic: 70%
I'll struggle with some of the newer stuff, since I have not spent time in London since the Elizabeth Line opened. OTOH I lived in London for 6-7 years in 5 or 6 different places, and walked many of the central areas.
50% is one every ~30 seconds. 70% is about one every 20-22 seconds. Above 50% is really good in the time, I think.
This is my suggested brain teaser for anyone with an hour or so needing to be occupied - a site where you need to remember the names of all the London Tube stations, with no Googling or outside reference work.
You get a map of London with stations and lines geographically indicated, and a search box. DLR is included.
There are around 275 stations, and give yourself 60 minutes.
Since it's Christmas all the ratings are positive.
Good: 30% Very Good: 50% Heroic: 70%
I'll struggle with some of the newer stuff, since I have not spent time in London since the Elizabeth Line opened. OTOH I lived in London for 6-7 years in 5 or 6 different places, and walked many of the central areas.
50% is one every ~30 seconds. 70% is about one every 20-22 seconds. Above 50% is really good in the time, I think.
I am a live and let live kind of guy as you all know, but they will not be featuring on my Christmas table. Can't think where anyone finds the space in their stomach.
My daughter makes great Yorkshire puddings, and this is her way of contributing to the Christmas lunch, so we're a yes on this.
We shall be pairing it with both chicken and salmon. Chicken because my kids think Turkey is just for Thanksgiving, and I don't really care. Salmon, because my wife is a pescatarian.
Vegtables will be roast potatoes, squash and brussels sprouts.
Make sure it is wild salmon (not even whole foods is any good). Although I knew the issues intellectually, I’ve just finished Salmon Wars (about Cooke Aquaculture) and it really brings the issues to life
It is wild salmon, don't worry.
Not vegan?
No, Sunil. You’re confusing salmon with venison.
Edit. Malcolm beat me to it.
He has paid me exactly what I paid the polling company .
If you want to partake the special Japanese Christmas delicacy, you're too late. Such is the demand December 9th was the last date you could preorder your KFC chicken nuggets.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
I worked out, 22 years ago, that the CoE has nothing but disdain for me. So, I left.
About 65 years ago, I experienced much the same thing in a particular Church of England church, but the lesson I drew was different. We were definitely living on the wrong side of the tracks, on a council estate. All those people treating my parents like that lived in large houses which displayed Conservative signs, hence my lifelong prejudice against Conservatives.
It's a good long while since I realised it was just prejudice but the feeling is still there.
Now the same large house residents would likely still treat said council estates with prejudice but because they are probably woke Remainers (like much of the C of E leadership now) and most of the council estate residents Farage backing Leavers
Mind you Corbyn Labour had significantly more members than May's Tories or even the Boris led Conservative Party did but it didn't help them win the 2017 or 2019 general election.
The fact is unless you want to be a councillor or MP/MSP/AM or have a strong sense of public service most people who join UK political parties now will be ideologues so it is hardly surprising that leftwing ideologues joined Corbyn's Labour Party as members en masse and rightwing ideologues are now joining Farage's Reform Party en masse
I'm a constituency party chair (Didcot and Wantage) and don't recognise your description - my impression is that most members are fairly unmotivated supporters of general left of centre politics. At election time they make an effort, in between they tolerate us ideologues. I do agree that the correlation between membership and winning is weak.
Anyway, happy Christmas all!
In my experience around 80% of Labour members have no involvement whatsoever in any party activities. Meetings, socials, canvassing or whatever. They pay their subs, and that's their lot.
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
There are already two varieties of alternative bishop oversight in the Church of England, one for Anglo Catholics who take the traditional view on women priests, and one for Evangelicals ditto. This is two too many.
This means in fact that both ACs and Evos in the CoE are split between purists with their own bishops, and moderates who take on board, however doubtfully, the new rules allowing women priests.
Most actual parishes are just ordinary, non extreme, and contain a variety of views and accept the compromises of living with different views about everything. Alternative 'no gays' bishops would lead to there being 4 or 5 different sorts of bishops to choose from. It would split ACs, Evos and centrists into fragments.
This would be crazy.
In the Evangelical Constituency, the CEEC is important because aiui it has represented the main cross-evangelical forum in the CofE since the 1960s, and was founded by John Stott - who is probably even now the most significant evangelical figure in the CofE since WW2.
That list of affiliates have groups in it which manage the appointment process ('patronage') to nearly 1000 parishes (CPAS, Church Society - not sure about any of the other groups), which is the lynchpin maintaining the balance between diversity across CofE traditions, and continuity of such. @HYUFD may have more complete numbers.
This is potentially of historical importance in the recent history of the CofE, more so eg than the ructions caused by Reform over women priests in the early 1990s.
OTOH it's a report in the Times , where coverage of religion has not really been the same since they lost Ruth Gledhill as their correspondent.
Agree. However the move would be massively divisive. For so minded evangelicals there is already an alternative bishop they can opt for. But notice how many evangelicals choose not to. This will be the same. Just as evangelicals have come, over decades, to accept divorce and remarriage as a reality within the fold, they are in large numbers quietly accepting that same sex relationships are part of the way it is going to be. It will split the movement (of which I am not a member).
Definitely time to disestablish the Church of England.
Church’s gay marriage opponents could get their own archbishop
Conservative groups warn that a ‘de facto parallel province’ may have to be established within the Church of England
The Church of England could be forced to create a new archbishop to cater to conservatives if efforts to prevent a split over the blessing of same-sex partnerships fails.
The Rev Canon John Dunnett, director of the Church of England Evangelical Council (CEEC), an influential conservative group, is among those calling for a “de facto parallel province” to be created within the church, grouping together parishes that oppose last year’s move to allow priests to bless the unions of gay couples.
If it were legally enshrined as an official province, it “would have to have an archbishop” to oversee it, Dunnett said.
This would be in addition to the archbishoprics of Canterbury and York, whose provinces cover southern and northern England.
Divisions over gay rights extend to the highest levels of the church. Twelve dissenting bishops went public last year to declare they were “unable to support the collective decision” made by the House of Bishops to approve blessing gay couples who are married or are in civil partnerships.
The CEEC forms part of a conservative umbrella group called the Alliance, which counts 2,000 priests as supporters.
The Alliance has issued a warning that if there is “further departure from the church’s doctrine” on sex and marriage, they “will have no choice but rapidly to establish what would in effect be a new de facto ‘parallel province’ within the Church of England”, which would require “oversight from bishops who remain faithful to orthodox teaching on marriage and sexuality”.
No, if anything that would be a concession to conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics given the large concession the established church has already voted for them to make by allowing prayers for same sex couples married in English law in C of E churches. Though no sign of the Bishops or Synod agreeing to such a third province at present. Note no such province was created for conservative Anglo Catholics who opposed women priests and bishops when Synod voted for them too and a number crossed the Tiber to Rome as a result (though flying suffragen bishops were created for parishes which did not want a woman priest or bishop).
Though note that final quote from the Alliance if 'further departure' ie same sex marriage in C of E churches which there is no sign of there being anywhere near a majority on Synod for given it would for most of them be such a departure from what the Bible and Jesus teach on marriage
With all these to-ings and fro-ings I'm increasingly glad I'm no longer describing myself as CofE.
Well the only Christian denominations which allow same sex marriages in England their churches and places of worship are the Methodists and Quakers and both are in steep decline.
For the truth is if you are so vehement a supporter of same sex marriages you want even churches to have to do them you are likely to secular and irreligious anyway.
The fastest growing churches in the UK by contrast are Orthodox, Baptist and Pentecostal, none of which offer even the prayers for same sex couples the C of E now does in services let alone same sex marriages
Unitarian chapels also host weddings between same-sex couples.
But I guess you don't consider Unitarianism to be a branch of Christianity.
And Unitarians are in even steeper decline than the Methodists with less than 200 Unitarian churches now left in England
So religions that embrace bigotry are on the rise. Those that are inclusive are in decline. Sad.
Well same sex marriage supporters in the UK could start attending churches which do same sex marriages like the Methodists and Unitarians if they want to change that. Rather than telling churches to perform same sex marriages while never having any intention of attending any of their services even if they do
yes the Church is not there to perform every whim for people . Marriage was promoted through time to provide stability for bringing up of children and making the father responsible for it . It is not really a platform for expressing undying love per se like some emotional reality tv show
It would have been much wiser to stick at 'civil partnerships' for same sex relationships in the civil law. It is entirely rational to accept same sex relationships from a religious point of view, but also believe that they are something other than marriage.
The new Archbishop's province could be called the province of Bigots. They could cover the churches that don't like women priests as well.
Does any of it matter?
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
Very good point. It amazes me how eg gay couples want to be a part of the CoE when it is so obvious that the CoE has nothing but disdain for them.
Depends what you mean by the CoE. I have recently attended two services presided over by a gay vicar, both packed out by the way. The idea that CoE people disdain him is simply untrue, and his attenders are as much CoE as anyone else. But some people think they don't matter because they are just ordinary CoE people and not intellectuals, or leaders, or powerful.
The institution of the Church discriminates against gay people, the presence of the odd gay person here and there notwithstanding. Canon law refuses to recognise gay marriage. Because of chapters of the bible that I'm sure you can quote at me.
It is institutionally prejudiced.
You say it's only the leaders, but they are the leaders. Of the Church of England.
Of the state sect, which is the official sect of a state that promotes gay marriage.
It's as if half the priests of the Roman Imperial Cult [edit] claimed that they didn't need to worship Juno because reasons.
Comments
Holly McClane to Harry Ellis: "Harry, it's Christmas Eve. Families... Stockings... chestnuts... Rudolph and Frosty... those things ring a bell?"
[listening to "Christmas in Hollis" by Run DMC]
John McClane: "How 'bout some Christmas Music?
Argyle the limo driver: "This IS Christmas Music!"
John McClane to Takagi: "You throw quite a party. I didn't know they had Christmas in Japan."
Sgt. Powell to Eddie (Gruber's gang): "Sorry to water your time. Merry Christmas!"
Hans Gruber to Theo: "It's Christmas, Theo, it's the time of miracles. So be of good cheer and call me when you hit the last lock."
Robinson the Police dude to the FBI guys: "Are you crazy? It's Christmas Eve, thousands of people -- the Mayor'll scream bloody murder..."
Argyle the limo driver (final line): "If this is their idea of Christmas, I gotta be here for New Year's!"
And...
Film closes out to "Let It Snow" sung by Vaughn Monroe.
Let everyone eat whatever they want and let's not judge others
I have cooked a turkey and just had our Christmas Eve meal which was excellent, but this is a result of our aging and not being able to attend our traditional family meal on Christmas day
This is the first Christmas of the 62 my wife and I have enjoyed together, that we will not be enjoying it with family, though they are all coming over in the morning
Tempus fugit and you adapt as times change, but our devotion to each other and our family is constant
I am oft reminder of the late Dave Allen who used to close his show with these lovely words
'May your God go with you'
Happy Christmas everyone
With or without Yorkshire pudding.
Not a patch on the performance I attended at the weekend, sadly.
Didn't Allen say "May your God go with you" because he was sceptical of religion?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_P6M_SeaMaster
But anyway: this is the wrong time to be talking about such trivia. To all Christians out there; I hope you have a wonderful day tomorrow, and I hope the church services are uplifting and enjoyable. Also to them, and everyone else: I wish you all a lovely day, hopefully spent with friends and family. Which, in my view, is the true meaning of Christmas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun-class_ekranoplan#/media/File:Lun-class_ekranoplan_2021-09-24-3.jpg
(I think that counts as an aircraft, and it was definitely military.)
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-35-program-office-lockheed-lot-18/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=f-35-program-office-lockheed-lot-18
… The F-35 Joint Program Office has agreed in principal to pay up to $11.8 billion for the next 145 F-35s from manufacturer Lockheed Martin—but final details on the deal won’t be hammered out until the spring.
The action specifies that the cost will not exceed $11.76 billion for Lot 18 jets, pegging the average price for the three F-35 variants at $81.1 million. Work on the jets is to be completed by June 2027. .
I can't see Russia's belated attempted lovebombing of the new Syrian government is going to be successful. Still, lovebombing is better than the bombing the Russians had been giving them.
Life throws unexpected shit at you every so often.
A program cost over a much smaller number of planes will do that. Cost of staying in the fighter business.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun-class_ekranoplan
EDIT Ooops, @JosiasJessop beat me to it!
"Protests in Syria over Christmas tree burning"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx27yx1y0deo
I don’t think UKIP ever had more than 50,000, so Reform are much bigger.
I do not much care, which of Conservatives or Reform prevails.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/07/05/britain-seals-typhoon-radar-upgrade-with-11-billion-award/
If you don’t like the club rules, don’t join the club.
And fwiw, no, but only because MrsPtP isn't keen, and we're having chicken anyway.
Good news for once on energy
Hearing The Master's Theme and the scene where the The Second Doctor had the choice of appearance, man I needed a cigarette after that.
Ass opposed to when it elects odd sinners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Town_Called_Mercy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_of_Fire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Doctors
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/5064206/#Comment_5064206
Anyway in case I am not around tomorrow - Happy Christmas everyone.
It's in a different place to that around women priests or bishops.
I'm not even sure that CEEC are united on the question, or on the positions of their affiliate organisations, which cover quite a spectrum - which Wikipedia lists as:
Anglican Mainstream, Anglican Mission in England, Church Mission Society, Church Pastoral Aid Society, Church Society, Crosslinks, Reform, Fulcrum, and New Wine.
OTOH if CEEC are taking a position, then their affialiates would either support it, or support the right of other organisations to adopt it and expect a response.
Anyway, happy Christmas all!
I'm reminded of the college don, quoted (maybe invented) by Alan Bennett in Beyond the Fringe who opined "I have no objection to homosexuality per se, only per me.
That tends to be my view of the matter.
It is institutionally prejudiced.
You say it's only the leaders, but they are the leaders. Of the Church of England.
That list of affiliates have groups in it which manage the appointment process ('patronage') to nearly 1000 parishes (CPAS, Church Society - not sure about any of the other groups), which is the lynchpin maintaining the balance between diversity across CofE traditions, and continuity of such. @HYUFD may have more complete numbers.
This is potentially of historical importance in the recent history of the CofE, more so eg than the ructions caused by Reform over women priests in the early 1990s.
OTOH it's a report in the Times
You get a map of London with stations and lines geographically indicated, and a search box. DLR is included.
There are around 275 stations, and give yourself 60 minutes.
Since it's Christmas all the ratings are positive.
Good: 30%
Very Good: 50%
Heroic: 70%
I'll struggle with some of the newer stuff, since I have not spent time in London since the Elizabeth Line opened. OTOH I lived in London for 6-7 years in 5 or 6 different places, and walked many of the central areas.
50% is one every ~30 seconds. 70% is about one every 20-22 seconds. Above 50% is really good in the time, I think.
You have till Boxing Day.
https://london.metro-memory.com/
… The deal covers design, development, demonstration and qualification and takes the radar to a production initial operating capability ready for integration into aircraft.
The ECRS contract is the first part of a £2.35 billion investment plan unveiled by the British in mid-2022 to upgrade mission computers, jamming and other technologies on the RAF jets…
£870m was just for development, not procurement.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Sunil060902#Pics_of_every_station_in_London!
At the end of the day it is the CHURCH of England not the REGISTRY OFFICE of England and has to follow the Bible's lead
Mornington Crescent!
I think that huffs the other 274.
They were very upset when the Defence Minister at the time placed an order to rent some American Mk54s. Which came pre-qualified for the aircraft.
Strangely, they managed to drop the cost of the adaption by orders of magnitude.
Among the 145 jets included are:
48 F-35As for the Air Force
16 F-35B and 5 F-35C models for the Marine Corps
14 F-35C models for the Navy
15 F-35A and 1 F-35B models for F-35 program partners
39 F-35A and 7 F-35B models for Foreign Military Sales customers
And, looking elsewhere, we have a 9% workshare of the $11.76bn:
“Work will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas (57%); El Segundo, California (14%); Warton, United Kingdom (9%); Cameri, Italy (4%); Orlando, Florida (4%); Nashua, New Hampshire (3%); Baltimore, Maryland (3%); San Diego, California (2%); Nagoya, Japan (2%); and various locations outside the continental U.S. (2%),” the notice stated.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/lockheed-contract-for-145-f-35-jets-some-work-for-uk/
It's a good long while since I realised it was just prejudice but the feeling is still there.
Merry Christmas one and all!! 🎄 🎅
Edit. Malcolm beat me to it.
The ticketing system should be programmed to charge extra to tourists who waste station capacity when it would be quicker and easier to walk.
But it's the map that's the problem. Topologically correct but geographically misleading.
That is it, now. Have a Good Christmas.
Is the The Long Kiss Goodnight a Christmas movie?
https://arstechnica.com/culture/2024/12/why-the-long-kiss-goodnight-is-a-great-alt-christmas-movie/
Add to a 'ramen bowl' with miso broth, noodles, sliced chicken or steak, spring onions and sliced fresh chilli
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Hs96dinUk
It's as if half the priests of the Roman Imperial Cult [edit] claimed that they didn't need to worship Juno because reasons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4dI9mVDI3E