How the general election would have looked under different voting systems – politicalbetting.com

This is a very interesting read.
The proposals are pretty well tailor-made for the possibility of CPO-ing green or grey belt land, and building well over half a million houses, quickly.

The schemes would also generate somewhere between £50bn and £100bn in surplus value.

CREATING NEW TOWNS FAST AND WELL
https://www.britainremade.co.uk/newtowns

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Foxy said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

I'm amused by the notion private sector workers are going to be delighted to vote Labour given recent policies of flinging private sector taxpayers' cash at public sector workers and increasing taxes on the private sector while the public sector gets exempted.

Simple solution take a job in the public sector if you think it's well paid and easy money. I recommend a nursing assistant role on grade 2 (over 7000 vacancies )

It is fun how every 'public sector worker' becomes a nurse. And be glad of the private sector. That's the sole source of wages for the public sector.

That's just silly.

I do not only contribute to the economy when working at Spire, I do exactly the same work on the NHS. How is one a boost to the economy and the other a drain?

In purely financial terms, every public sector worker is a net cost. Your taxes in the public sector reduce the cost they don't make up for it.

Of course, the essential services (health, education, bin collection etc) are needed. But without the private sector they wouldn't be possible. If that were not the case, the state could simply employ everyone and watch miraculous tax revenues and endless growth.

Hammer the private sector to fund the desperately virtuous public sector and economic growth gets hit, which in the long term is not just bad for those in the private sector, but the zealous left so keen on spending tax revenue, which also drops.

Mr. Owls, the cultish applause for the NHS was indeed a disturbing trend,

Really enlightening to hear your thoughts on the disturbing trend of people being grateful for the NHS saving lives.

I think even ungrateful types like yourself still get treated for "free"

Mr. Owls, cultish devotion is always disturbing.

I didn't applaud for the local supermarket during the pandemic, even though I was very glad indeed it was there. As for ingratitude, I suppose you'll just have to use my avatar for a quick Two Minutes Hate.

Do you not have a Cultish devotion to Capitalism?

Or are some Cultish devotions acceptable?

Capitalism has plenty of flaws. It should be commercial democracy but the power of large firms can lead it to become more like commercial oligarchy. Taken too far, you can end up with US healthcare. But it's better than the alternatives. You certainly won't find me applauding capitalism on my doorstep, then condemning those who refuse to participate for their ingratitude.

twistedfirestopper3 said:

If working in the public sector is so lucrative and such a piece of piss to do, why don't you all quit your shit finance/legal/consulting/management/self publishing author jobs and get on the gravy train?

Who said it was easy?

I will say, though, that the supremely high level of job security sounds nice, given a mix of AI and tech giant algorithm fiddling has rather shafted me this year.

Oh, and on 'easy': getting pay rises certainly become that way under Starmer.

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Police arrest 93 gang members behind £4m thefts in shoplifting crackdown
A new police unit has for the first time mapped the gangs targeting shops around the country to see where they're operating.
https://news.sky.com/story/flatplan-13270885

Geography is not just for running through fields of wheat. Who knew?

At first glance it sounds like a big operation. But if £4m the retail value, they are probably selling it on <50% so <£2m. Divvied up between the 93 thats £21k each. Not unsubstantial but worth risking your liberty for? And then we are told the arrested ones are part of a much bigger crime gang. So far less than £21k each. Then expenses for travelling around the country.

Crime doesn't pay particularly well for most, maybe less than minimum wage, is what I take from that report.

I've only known a few minor villains but invariably they'd have been better off with proper jobs. And those at the top may as well be running major companies, albeit with alternative mechanisms for dispute resolution. This might also be why county lines gangs recruit children – if they waited till they were adults, they'd realise Tesco paid more for stacking shelves.

(Also please do not use less than symbols which confuse Vanilla. I've replaced them with html codes.)

(They also confuse the AI summaries of search results: < must be written as <. Gosh, thanks, Copilot.)

Mexicanpete said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Foxy said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

I'm amused by the notion private sector workers are going to be delighted to vote Labour given recent policies of flinging private sector taxpayers' cash at public sector workers and increasing taxes on the private sector while the public sector gets exempted.

Simple solution take a job in the public sector if you think it's well paid and easy money. I recommend a nursing assistant role on grade 2 (over 7000 vacancies )

It is fun how every 'public sector worker' becomes a nurse. And be glad of the private sector. That's the sole source of wages for the public sector.

That's just silly.

I do not only contribute to the economy when working at Spire, I do exactly the same work on the NHS. How is one a boost to the economy and the other a drain?

In purely financial terms, every public sector worker is a net cost. Your taxes in the public sector reduce the cost they don't make up for it.

Of course, the essential services (health, education, bin collection etc) are needed. But without the private sector they wouldn't be possible. If that were not the case, the state could simply employ everyone and watch miraculous tax revenues and endless growth.

Hammer the private sector to fund the desperately virtuous public sector and economic growth gets hit, which in the long term is not just bad for those in the private sector, but the zealous left so keen on spending tax revenue, which also drops.

Mr. Owls, the cultish applause for the NHS was indeed a disturbing trend,

Really enlightening to hear your thoughts on the disturbing trend of people being grateful for the NHS saving lives.

I think even ungrateful types like yourself still get treated for "free"

Mr. Owls, cultish devotion is always disturbing.

I didn't applaud for the local supermarket during the pandemic, even though I was very glad indeed it was there. As for ingratitude, I suppose you'll just have to use my avatar for a quick Two Minutes Hate.

Were there any other countries that had something similar to the applause for health workers thing (of which I did not partake)? Perhaps Britain is a country of cultish devotion (see also Royal family).

I hope you clapped for Boris when he took a bout of COVID for the team. He nearly died you know, but his resilience kept the national pecker up, so every Thursday we clapped for Boris. Stuff the lazy nurses.

Solid muscle. Especially between his ears.

bigjohnowls said:

On Topic.

Really interesting.

FPTP really is a rubbish system plus if any other system were used voting patterns would likely favour the smaller Parties like the Greens even more as people vote for the Party thet actually want rather than for one of the 2 big parties to stop the other big Party

Give it a couple of years and nobody except fringe loonies will vote green. How a socialist can vote for a party that advocates the working poor shivering in the cold while the Government subsidises the sovereign wealth funds of other nations billions to provide unreliable expensive power is utterly beyond me.

Luckyguy1983 said:

bigjohnowls said:

On Topic.

Really interesting.

FPTP really is a rubbish system plus if any other system were used voting patterns would likely favour the smaller Parties like the Greens even more as people vote for the Party thet actually want rather than for one of the 2 big parties to stop the other big Party

Give it a couple of years and nobody except fringe loonies will vote green. How a socialist can vote for a party that advocates the working poor shivering in the cold while the Government subsidises the sovereign wealth funds of other nations billions to provide unreliable expensive power is utterly beyond me.

They don't.

That I think is a deliberate misreading of the policy.

(And no, I don't vote Green in General Elections.)

DecrepiterJohnL said:

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Police arrest 93 gang members behind £4m thefts in shoplifting crackdown
A new police unit has for the first time mapped the gangs targeting shops around the country to see where they're operating.
https://news.sky.com/story/flatplan-13270885

Geography is not just for running through fields of wheat. Who knew?

At first glance it sounds like a big operation. But if £4m the retail value, they are probably selling it on <50% so <£2m. Divvied up between the 93 thats £21k each. Not unsubstantial but worth risking your liberty for? And then we are told the arrested ones are part of a much bigger crime gang. So far less than £21k each. Then expenses for travelling around the country.

Crime doesn't pay particularly well for most, maybe less than minimum wage, is what I take from that report.

I've only known a few minor villains but invariably they'd have been better off with proper jobs. And those at the top may as well be running major companies, albeit with alternative mechanisms for dispute resolution. This might also be why county lines gangs recruit children – if they waited till they were adults, they'd realise Tesco paid more for stacking shelves.

(Also please do not use less than symbols which confuse Vanilla. I've replaced them with html codes.)

(They also confuse the AI summaries of search results: < must be written as <. Gosh, thanks, Copilot.)

A number of years back - early 90s, I think - the Economist did a dive into the economics of the drug trade.

Nearly everyone in it was paid less than minimum wage - and that irregularly. A few windfalls, really. And drug dealing is often product before cash. So everyone is in debt to other people.

A tiny number get good money, an even tinier group got the riches.

This explains the continuous issue of theft and the constant Klingon Promotion system.

As they put it, 95% of people in the drugs trade would be better off working in fast food. More money for a start.

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Foxy said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

I'm amused by the notion private sector workers are going to be delighted to vote Labour given recent policies of flinging private sector taxpayers' cash at public sector workers and increasing taxes on the private sector while the public sector gets exempted.

Simple solution take a job in the public sector if you think it's well paid and easy money. I recommend a nursing assistant role on grade 2 (over 7000 vacancies )

It is fun how every 'public sector worker' becomes a nurse. And be glad of the private sector. That's the sole source of wages for the public sector.

That's just silly.

I do not only contribute to the economy when working at Spire, I do exactly the same work on the NHS. How is one a boost to the economy and the other a drain?

In purely financial terms, every public sector worker is a net cost. Your taxes in the public sector reduce the cost they don't make up for it.

Of course, the essential services (health, education, bin collection etc) are needed. But without the private sector they wouldn't be possible. If that were not the case, the state could simply employ everyone and watch miraculous tax revenues and endless growth.

Hammer the private sector to fund the desperately virtuous public sector and economic growth gets hit, which in the long term is not just bad for those in the private sector, but the zealous left so keen on spending tax revenue, which also drops.

Mr. Owls, the cultish applause for the NHS was indeed a disturbing trend,

Really enlightening to hear your thoughts on the disturbing trend of people being grateful for the NHS saving lives.

I think even ungrateful types like yourself still get treated for "free"

Mr. Owls, cultish devotion is always disturbing.

I didn't applaud for the local supermarket during the pandemic, even though I was very glad indeed it was there. As for ingratitude, I suppose you'll just have to use my avatar for a quick Two Minutes Hate.

Do you not have a Cultish devotion to Capitalism?

Or are some Cultish devotions acceptable?

Capitalism has plenty of flaws. It should be commercial democracy but the power of large firms can lead it to become more like commercial oligarchy. Taken too far, you can end up with US healthcare. But it's better than the alternatives. You certainly won't find me applauding capitalism on my doorstep, then condemning those who refuse to participate for their ingratitude.

{Adam Smith has entered the chat}

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

If working in the public sector is so lucrative and such a piece of piss to do, why don't you all quit your shit finance/legal/consulting/management/self publishing author jobs and get on the gravy train?

Who said it was easy?

I will say, though, that the supremely high level of job security sounds nice, given a mix of AI and tech giant algorithm fiddling has rather shafted me this year.

Oh, and on 'easy': getting pay rises certainly become that way under Starmer.

Genuinely, what would you pay a nurse? What should the person giving you CPR in the back of an ambulance be on an hour? How much is it worth to you to get dragged out of your burning house at 3 in the morning? Why shouldn't train drivers earn a good wage?
Is emptying bins not worthy of a decent pay packet? What about the office staff who keep all the plates spinning in the background?
You won't do these jobs, but don't want to pay the people who will do them. Why?

What is a decent pay packet? Genuine question - how can we define that?

Eabhal said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Foxy said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

I'm amused by the notion private sector workers are going to be delighted to vote Labour given recent policies of flinging private sector taxpayers' cash at public sector workers and increasing taxes on the private sector while the public sector gets exempted.

Simple solution take a job in the public sector if you think it's well paid and easy money. I recommend a nursing assistant role on grade 2 (over 7000 vacancies )

It is fun how every 'public sector worker' becomes a nurse. And be glad of the private sector. That's the sole source of wages for the public sector.

That's just silly.

I do not only contribute to the economy when working at Spire, I do exactly the same work on the NHS. How is one a boost to the economy and the other a drain?

In purely financial terms, every public sector worker is a net cost. Your taxes in the public sector reduce the cost they don't make up for it.

Of course, the essential services (health, education, bin collection etc) are needed. But without the private sector they wouldn't be possible. If that were not the case, the state could simply employ everyone and watch miraculous tax revenues and endless growth.

Hammer the private sector to fund the desperately virtuous public sector and economic growth gets hit, which in the long term is not just bad for those in the private sector, but the zealous left so keen on spending tax revenue, which also drops.

Mr. Owls, the cultish applause for the NHS was indeed a disturbing trend,

But the private sector has not provided much economic growth either in the UK - productivity growth has been dreadful there too.

True, but the private sector are still massive overachievers when compared to the Public Sector.

Foxy said:

Roger said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

If they aren’t dodging taxes then farmers are destroying our heritage. Ghastly people.

Farmer in court over ploughing D-Day training grounds

Natural England seeks permanent injunction to protect Mesolithic settlement and Second World War artefacts

A farmer is in a court row with the countryside protection watchdog after ploughing fields home to “irreplaceable” D-Day relics.

Andrew Cooper, a tenant of National Trust-owned Croyde Hoe Farm in North Devon, is facing legal action over claims he is ploughing protected fields with artefacts from the Second World War, and the Neolithic and Mesolithic eras.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/devon-farmer-court-row-ploughing-fields-d-day-relics/

Another gratuitous attack on the multi millionaire farming community. It's really got to stop. They'll be after the second home owners next.

You must be made aware of the poor plight of BTL landlords, who it seems Starmer expects to actually pay tax! Outrageous attack on the Private Sector.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/600000-landlords-death-tax-ticking-time-bomb/

And yet the various ways out of inheritance tax still exist.

Malmesbury said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Police arrest 93 gang members behind £4m thefts in shoplifting crackdown
A new police unit has for the first time mapped the gangs targeting shops around the country to see where they're operating.
https://news.sky.com/story/flatplan-13270885

Geography is not just for running through fields of wheat. Who knew?

At first glance it sounds like a big operation. But if £4m the retail value, they are probably selling it on <50% so <£2m. Divvied up between the 93 thats £21k each. Not unsubstantial but worth risking your liberty for? And then we are told the arrested ones are part of a much bigger crime gang. So far less than £21k each. Then expenses for travelling around the country.

Crime doesn't pay particularly well for most, maybe less than minimum wage, is what I take from that report.

I've only known a few minor villains but invariably they'd have been better off with proper jobs. And those at the top may as well be running major companies, albeit with alternative mechanisms for dispute resolution. This might also be why county lines gangs recruit children – if they waited till they were adults, they'd realise Tesco paid more for stacking shelves.

(Also please do not use less than symbols which confuse Vanilla. I've replaced them with html codes.)

(They also confuse the AI summaries of search results: < must be written as <. Gosh, thanks, Copilot.)

A number of years back - early 90s, I think - the Economist did a dive into the economics of the drug trade.

Nearly everyone in it was paid less than minimum wage - and that irregularly. A few windfalls, really. And drug dealing is often product before cash. So everyone is in debt to other people.

A tiny number get good money, an even tinier group got the riches.

This explains the continuous issue of theft and the constant Klingon Promotion system.

As they put it, 95% of people in the drugs trade would be better off working in fast food. More money for a start.

Freakonomics covered that in one of their books. A piece called “Why do drug dealers still live with their moms?”

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-apr-24-oe-dubner24-story.html

There’s even a TED talk on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UGC2nLnaes

Definitive statement on Syria.

https://x.com/Psythor/status/1866109877715661115

Dopermean said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

If they aren’t dodging taxes then farmers are destroying our heritage. Ghastly people.

Farmer in court over ploughing D-Day training grounds

Natural England seeks permanent injunction to protect Mesolithic settlement and Second World War artefacts

A farmer is in a court row with the countryside protection watchdog after ploughing fields home to “irreplaceable” D-Day relics.

Andrew Cooper, a tenant of National Trust-owned Croyde Hoe Farm in North Devon, is facing legal action over claims he is ploughing protected fields with artefacts from the Second World War, and the Neolithic and Mesolithic eras.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/devon-farmer-court-row-ploughing-fields-d-day-relics/

It reads like the Judge has been a bit of a pedantic d**k. Ruling that the protection only covers artefacts on the surface not buried. Does that mean that when he brings them to the surface by ploughing, which will damage them, that they are then protected?
DT BTL is hilariously confused, surely the origin of "Conservative" is "conserve"? (I jest)

I'm also surprised that you could economically grow crops on Baggy point.

Yes sheep and cattle about the only thing of any value for Baggy Point.

Dopermean said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

If they aren’t dodging taxes then farmers are destroying our heritage. Ghastly people.

Farmer in court over ploughing D-Day training grounds

Natural England seeks permanent injunction to protect Mesolithic settlement and Second World War artefacts

A farmer is in a court row with the countryside protection watchdog after ploughing fields home to “irreplaceable” D-Day relics.

Andrew Cooper, a tenant of National Trust-owned Croyde Hoe Farm in North Devon, is facing legal action over claims he is ploughing protected fields with artefacts from the Second World War, and the Neolithic and Mesolithic eras.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/devon-farmer-court-row-ploughing-fields-d-day-relics/

It reads like the Judge has been a bit of a pedantic d**k. Ruling that the protection only covers artefacts on the surface not buried. Does that mean that when he brings them to the surface by ploughing, which will damage them, that they are then protected?
DT BTL is hilariously confused, surely the origin of "Conservative" is "conserve"? (I jest)

I'm also surprised that you could economically grow crops on Baggy point.

The comic thing here is that after literal centuries of trying to protect stuff, the legal responsibility for such is confused. Process State at work.

The answer is - clear simple law on defining a protected piece of land, what is protected and by whom.

I would suspect that the main reason that this hasn't been sorted out is the problem of who then pays for maintaining land. Clear lines of responsibility would mean clear lines of responsibility.

Malmesbury said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

If working in the public sector is so lucrative and such a piece of piss to do, why don't you all quit your shit finance/legal/consulting/management/self publishing author jobs and get on the gravy train?

Who said it was easy?

I will say, though, that the supremely high level of job security sounds nice, given a mix of AI and tech giant algorithm fiddling has rather shafted me this year.

Oh, and on 'easy': getting pay rises certainly become that way under Starmer.

Genuinely, what would you pay a nurse? What should the person giving you CPR in the back of an ambulance be on an hour? How much is it worth to you to get dragged out of your burning house at 3 in the morning? Why shouldn't train drivers earn a good wage?
Is emptying bins not worthy of a decent pay packet? What about the office staff who keep all the plates spinning in the background?
You won't do these jobs, but don't want to pay the people who will do them. Why?

What is a decent pay packet? Genuine question - how can we define that?

I guess that depends on who is asking the question! Enough to at least allow you to participate in society, I guess. Enough to make working that job worth it.
A lot of Public sector jobs are a bit hard to price.

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Foxy said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

I'm amused by the notion private sector workers are going to be delighted to vote Labour given recent policies of flinging private sector taxpayers' cash at public sector workers and increasing taxes on the private sector while the public sector gets exempted.

Simple solution take a job in the public sector if you think it's well paid and easy money. I recommend a nursing assistant role on grade 2 (over 7000 vacancies )

It is fun how every 'public sector worker' becomes a nurse. And be glad of the private sector. That's the sole source of wages for the public sector.

That's just silly.

I do not only contribute to the economy when working at Spire, I do exactly the same work on the NHS. How is one a boost to the economy and the other a drain?

In purely financial terms, every public sector worker is a net cost. Your taxes in the public sector reduce the cost they don't make up for it.

Of course, the essential services (health, education, bin collection etc) are needed. But without the private sector they wouldn't be possible. If that were not the case, the state could simply employ everyone and watch miraculous tax revenues and endless growth.

Hammer the private sector to fund the desperately virtuous public sector and economic growth gets hit, which in the long term is not just bad for those in the private sector, but the zealous left so keen on spending tax revenue, which also drops.

Mr. Owls, the cultish applause for the NHS was indeed a disturbing trend,

Really enlightening to hear your thoughts on the disturbing trend of people being grateful for the NHS saving lives.

I think even ungrateful types like yourself still get treated for "free"

Mr. Owls, cultish devotion is always disturbing.

I didn't applaud for the local supermarket during the pandemic, even though I was very glad indeed it was there. As for ingratitude, I suppose you'll just have to use my avatar for a quick Two Minutes Hate.

Do you not have a Cultish devotion to Capitalism?

Or are some Cultish devotions acceptable?

Capitalism has plenty of flaws. It should be commercial democracy but the power of large firms can lead it to become more like commercial oligarchy. Taken too far, you can end up with US healthcare. But it's better than the alternatives. You certainly won't find me applauding capitalism on my doorstep, then condemning those who refuse to participate for their ingratitude.

OMG he used the quote button again!

turbotubbs said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Mexicanpete said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Foxy said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

I'm amused by the notion private sector workers are going to be delighted to vote Labour given recent policies of flinging private sector taxpayers' cash at public sector workers and increasing taxes on the private sector while the public sector gets exempted.

Simple solution take a job in the public sector if you think it's well paid and easy money. I recommend a nursing assistant role on grade 2 (over 7000 vacancies )

It is fun how every 'public sector worker' becomes a nurse. And be glad of the private sector. That's the sole source of wages for the public sector.

That's just silly.

I do not only contribute to the economy when working at Spire, I do exactly the same work on the NHS. How is one a boost to the economy and the other a drain?

In purely financial terms, every public sector worker is a net cost. Your taxes in the public sector reduce the cost they don't make up for it.

Of course, the essential services (health, education, bin collection etc) are needed. But without the private sector they wouldn't be possible. If that were not the case, the state could simply employ everyone and watch miraculous tax revenues and endless growth.

Hammer the private sector to fund the desperately virtuous public sector and economic growth gets hit, which in the long term is not just bad for those in the private sector, but the zealous left so keen on spending tax revenue, which also drops.

Mr. Owls, the cultish applause for the NHS was indeed a disturbing trend,

Really enlightening to hear your thoughts on the disturbing trend of people being grateful for the NHS saving lives.

I think even ungrateful types like yourself still get treated for "free"

Mr. Owls, cultish devotion is always disturbing.

I didn't applaud for the local supermarket during the pandemic, even though I was very glad indeed it was there. As for ingratitude, I suppose you'll just have to use my avatar for a quick Two Minutes Hate.

Were there any other countries that had something similar to the applause for health workers thing (of which I did not partake)? Perhaps Britain is a country of cultish devotion (see also Royal family).

I hope you clapped for Boris when he took a bout of COVID for the team. He nearly died you know, but his resilience kept the national pecker up, so every Thursday we clapped for Boris. Stuff the lazy nurses.

On a connected note, and to make a change of tedious bicker from CASH, private v public sectors etc.
The combination of John Simpson and a French institute may have veins in foreheads bulging, but that's a feature not a bug.



https://x.com/JohnSimpsonNews/status/1866184573182218522

That's as appalling graph. Why does it stop at July 2020? What's it trying to prove?

Here's a link to the actual study:

https://bmcglobalpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s44263-024-00103-z

Foxy said:

Roger said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

If they aren’t dodging taxes then farmers are destroying our heritage. Ghastly people.

Farmer in court over ploughing D-Day training grounds

Natural England seeks permanent injunction to protect Mesolithic settlement and Second World War artefacts

A farmer is in a court row with the countryside protection watchdog after ploughing fields home to “irreplaceable” D-Day relics.

Andrew Cooper, a tenant of National Trust-owned Croyde Hoe Farm in North Devon, is facing legal action over claims he is ploughing protected fields with artefacts from the Second World War, and the Neolithic and Mesolithic eras.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/devon-farmer-court-row-ploughing-fields-d-day-relics/

Another gratuitous attack on the multi millionaire farming community. It's really got to stop. They'll be after the second home owners next.

You must be made aware of the poor plight of BTL landlords, who it seems Starmer expects to actually pay tax! Outrageous attack on the Private Sector.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/600000-landlords-death-tax-ticking-time-bomb/

TBH that's just the Telegrunt's Grunt of the Day for the benefit of the Blue Rinse Brigade.

I don't see what the issue is - it's a normal tax liability. Though if the plan is to lessen IHT on family businesses, such should be included as business assets. I'm surprised that small incorporated LL businesses have not been addressed, which avoid much of the same taxes, as well as the rest ... one man bands etc.

Full piece: https://archive.ph/JVdE9

I did enjoy the other piece it linked me to:

‘Our £700k home is a money pit – how can I still retire at 60?’

(The guy is 34, living with partner in a 3400 sqft listed townhouse in Leicestershire.)

Er ... move somewhere smaller?

https://archive.ph/AiJMD

Roger said:

Morris_Dancer said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

If working in the public sector is so lucrative and such a piece of piss to do, why don't you all quit your shit finance/legal/consulting/management/self publishing author jobs and get on the gravy train?

Who said it was easy?

I will say, though, that the supremely high level of job security sounds nice, given a mix of AI and tech giant algorithm fiddling has rather shafted me this year.

Oh, and on 'easy': getting pay rises certainly become that way under Starmer.

Genuinely, what would you pay a nurse? What should the person giving you CPR in the back of an ambulance be on an hour? How much is it worth to you to get dragged out of your burning house at 3 in the morning? Why shouldn't train drivers earn a good wage?
Is emptying bins not worthy of a decent pay packet? What about the office staff who keep all the plates spinning in the background?
You won't do these jobs, but don't want to pay the people who will do them. Why?

Money isn't a matter of moral value, just economic value. A nurse always contributes more in that sense to society than a footballer. But the ridiculous wages of a footballer provides a shedload of cash via tax which can then pay nurses.

Also, I think you're exaggerating a teensy tiny bit:
"You won't do these jobs, but don't want to pay the people who will do them. Why?"

That's a nice caricature you've chosen to invent. Winning a argument is much easier when you invent the position of your opponent.

There's a difference between not wanting public sector workers to receive any salary whatsoever and observing the current Labour Government is not exactly brimming with defiant resistance every time a union wants a pay rise.

I think he's saying our values are distiorted and read PB for a few days and try to argue with him. All we hear is that public sector workers are scroungers....the government are robbing millionaire farmers blind....we want white babies....

..............actually that was when I realised I was in the wrong place...

If that's all you hear, you seem to be listening to about 1 poster.

MattW said:

Foxy said:

Roger said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

If they aren’t dodging taxes then farmers are destroying our heritage. Ghastly people.

Farmer in court over ploughing D-Day training grounds

Natural England seeks permanent injunction to protect Mesolithic settlement and Second World War artefacts

A farmer is in a court row with the countryside protection watchdog after ploughing fields home to “irreplaceable” D-Day relics.

Andrew Cooper, a tenant of National Trust-owned Croyde Hoe Farm in North Devon, is facing legal action over claims he is ploughing protected fields with artefacts from the Second World War, and the Neolithic and Mesolithic eras.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/devon-farmer-court-row-ploughing-fields-d-day-relics/

Another gratuitous attack on the multi millionaire farming community. It's really got to stop. They'll be after the second home owners next.

You must be made aware of the poor plight of BTL landlords, who it seems Starmer expects to actually pay tax! Outrageous attack on the Private Sector.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/600000-landlords-death-tax-ticking-time-bomb/

TBH that's just the Telegrunt's Grunt of the Day for the benefit of the Blue Rinse Brigade.

I don't see what the issue is - it's a normal tax liability. Though if the plan is to lessen IHT on family businesses, such should be included as business assets. I'm surprised that small incorporated LL businesses have not been addressed, which avoid much of the same taxes, as well as the rest ... one man bands etc.

Full piece: https://archive.ph/JVdE9

I did enjoy the other piece it linked me to:

‘Our £700k home is a money pit – how can I still retire at 60?’

(The guy is 34, living with partner in a 3400 sqft listed townhouse in Leicestershire.)

Er ... move somewhere smaller?

https://archive.ph/AiJMD

If you wanted to raise some big money, end the tax games for the big legal firms.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/starmer-tax-loophole-lawyers-law-firms-budget-b2651965.html

Morris_Dancer said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

If working in the public sector is so lucrative and such a piece of piss to do, why don't you all quit your shit finance/legal/consulting/management/self publishing author jobs and get on the gravy train?

Who said it was easy?

I will say, though, that the supremely high level of job security sounds nice, given a mix of AI and tech giant algorithm fiddling has rather shafted me this year.

Oh, and on 'easy': getting pay rises certainly become that way under Starmer.

Genuinely, what would you pay a nurse? What should the person giving you CPR in the back of an ambulance be on an hour? How much is it worth to you to get dragged out of your burning house at 3 in the morning? Why shouldn't train drivers earn a good wage?
Is emptying bins not worthy of a decent pay packet? What about the office staff who keep all the plates spinning in the background?
You won't do these jobs, but don't want to pay the people who will do them. Why?

Money isn't a matter of moral value, just economic value. A nurse always contributes more in that sense to society than a footballer. But the ridiculous wages of a footballer provides a shedload of cash via tax which can then pay nurses.

Also, I think you're exaggerating a teensy tiny bit:
"You won't do these jobs, but don't want to pay the people who will do them. Why?"

That's a nice caricature you've chosen to invent. Winning a argument is much easier when you invent the position of your opponent.

There's a difference between not wanting public sector workers to receive any salary whatsoever and observing the current Labour Government is not exactly brimming with defiant resistance every time a union wants a pay rise.

What have I invented? Every NHS trust, every Fire and Rescue Service, every Local Authority are recruiting all types of jobs, not just the glamorous "moral" ones. Fill yer boots, get on the gravy train.
I don't care about moral value, only that these jobs need doing, you want these jobs doing, and you definitely don't want to do these jobs yourself so you have to pay someone to do them. How much we pay is all we're debating.

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Farmer protest good

Brexit protest bad

Election petition good

Brexit petition bad

Farmer protest bad

Brexit protest good

Election petition bad

Brexit petition good

Works the other way too.

Foxy said:

Roger said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

If they aren’t dodging taxes then farmers are destroying our heritage. Ghastly people.

Farmer in court over ploughing D-Day training grounds

Natural England seeks permanent injunction to protect Mesolithic settlement and Second World War artefacts

A farmer is in a court row with the countryside protection watchdog after ploughing fields home to “irreplaceable” D-Day relics.

Andrew Cooper, a tenant of National Trust-owned Croyde Hoe Farm in North Devon, is facing legal action over claims he is ploughing protected fields with artefacts from the Second World War, and the Neolithic and Mesolithic eras.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/devon-farmer-court-row-ploughing-fields-d-day-relics/

Another gratuitous attack on the multi millionaire farming community. It's really got to stop. They'll be after the second home owners next.

You must be made aware of the poor plight of BTL landlords, who it seems Starmer expects to actually pay tax! Outrageous attack on the Private Sector.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/600000-landlords-death-tax-ticking-time-bomb/

In any other paper you'd think it was a spoof

Malmesbury said:

Dopermean said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

If they aren’t dodging taxes then farmers are destroying our heritage. Ghastly people.

Farmer in court over ploughing D-Day training grounds

Natural England seeks permanent injunction to protect Mesolithic settlement and Second World War artefacts

A farmer is in a court row with the countryside protection watchdog after ploughing fields home to “irreplaceable” D-Day relics.

Andrew Cooper, a tenant of National Trust-owned Croyde Hoe Farm in North Devon, is facing legal action over claims he is ploughing protected fields with artefacts from the Second World War, and the Neolithic and Mesolithic eras.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/devon-farmer-court-row-ploughing-fields-d-day-relics/

It reads like the Judge has been a bit of a pedantic d**k. Ruling that the protection only covers artefacts on the surface not buried. Does that mean that when he brings them to the surface by ploughing, which will damage them, that they are then protected?
DT BTL is hilariously confused, surely the origin of "Conservative" is "conserve"? (I jest)

I'm also surprised that you could economically grow crops on Baggy point.

The comic thing here is that after literal centuries of trying to protect stuff, the legal responsibility for such is confused. Process State at work.

The answer is - clear simple law on defining a protected piece of land, what is protected and by whom.

I would suspect that the main reason that this hasn't been sorted out is the problem of who then pays for maintaining land. Clear lines of responsibility would mean clear lines of responsibility.

The landowner is in this case National Trust. If the land has "irreplaceable artefacts" under the surface then a dig needs to be coordinated with them ASAP.

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Farmer protest good

Brexit protest bad

Election petition good

Brexit petition bad

Farmer protest bad

Brexit protest good

Election petition bad

Brexit petition good

Works the other way too.

I signed a petition to push forward with May's deal. The deal went down like cold sick with both remainers and brexiteers alike; it got about 20 signatures iirc. But I realised that we weren't in a good situation and practicality needed to be the order of the day.

MattW said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

I was in town with my wife yesterday driving along the main street and I approached a pedestrian crossing on green, with pedestrians waiting on either side, when a young woman on her mobile stepped out straight in front of me absolutely oblivious of her surroundings

I did stop and she 'jumped' out of her skin and made a beeline into the nearest shop with everyone looking on incredulously

It was all captured on my in car dash cam and you have to hope she learned a lesson from it, but I doubt it

She was very lucky that I anticipated her walking out in front of me

Isn't that one for an "I'm here, wake up!" toot, which is iirc the only valid reason for hooting?

Ashley Neal's learning point yesterday was quite interesting about Zebra Crossings with various complications such as if it's out because of road works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7csyGpWmlKM

She did get a 'toot' that woke her up and why she jumped out of her skin !!!!!!!!!!!

viewcode said:

rottenborough said:

Talk
@TalkTV

Student Connie Shaw, who was suspended from Leeds University radio, says she "won't apologise" for expressing gender-critical views.

"I don't know what I'd be apologising for. I'd find it very hard to start writing that letter."

https://x.com/TalkTV/status/1866468359983820864

#pbfreespeech

I’m not a big fan of this kind of thing. She has views, let’s hear them.

Nigelb said:

This is a very interesting read.
The proposals are pretty well tailor-made for the possibility of CPO-ing green or grey belt land, and building well over half a million houses, quickly.

The schemes would also generate somewhere between £50bn and £100bn in surplus value.

CREATING NEW TOWNS FAST AND WELL
https://www.britainremade.co.uk/newtowns

I had a quick look.

• It mandates trams. There's nothing a tram can't do that a bus can't do quicker and cheaper, and they have electric buses now with batteries.
  
• Much as I love "createstreets", I cannot share its approval of buildings over three stories. A building should be low enough for an old lady to get to the top floor with a stick, and for six men to carry her coffin down when she dies. Even the Soviets worked that out.
  

Shecorns88 said:

...The Treasury meanwhile could claw back the tax take shortfall from...gambling companies...

Taps the sign saying "politicalbetting.com"

I do wish we had some more Starmer fans here to balance out the site a bit. I feel like I’m the only one writing from that perspective.

We’ve still got a small contingent of lefties but overall the site feels far more hostile to the government that it has since I’ve been around these parts.

I liked this site because it had a range of views across the spectrum.

Shecorns88 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

If working in the public sector is so lucrative and such a piece of piss to do, why don't you all quit your shit finance/legal/consulting/management/self publishing author jobs and get on the gravy train?

Who said it was easy?

I will say, though, that the supremely high level of job security sounds nice, given a mix of AI and tech giant algorithm fiddling has rather shafted me this year.

Oh, and on 'easy': getting pay rises certainly become that way under Starmer.

Genuinely, what would you pay a nurse? What should the person giving you CPR in the back of an ambulance be on an hour? How much is it worth to you to get dragged out of your burning house at 3 in the morning? Why shouldn't train drivers earn a good wage?
Is emptying bins not worthy of a decent pay packet? What about the office staff who keep all the plates spinning in the background?
You won't do these jobs, but don't want to pay the people who will do them. Why?

Money isn't a matter of moral value, just economic value. A nurse always contributes more in that sense to society than a footballer. But the ridiculous wages of a footballer provides a shedload of cash via tax which can then pay nurses.

Also, I think you're exaggerating a teensy tiny bit:
"You won't do these jobs, but don't want to pay the people who will do them. Why?"

That's a nice caricature you've chosen to invent. Winning a argument is much easier when you invent the position of your opponent.

There's a difference between not wanting public sector workers to receive any salary whatsoever and observing the current Labour Government is not exactly brimming with defiant resistance every time a union wants a pay rise.

There is a simple way to define, reward and pay key Emergency Workers and other key roles and to help fill vital empty roles very quickly


Introduce a 10% basic and 30% higher tax rate for those roles. It would cost the relevant Departments of State nothing.

The Treasury meanwhile could claw back the tax take shortfall from merchant bankers, gambling companies, the likes of Amazon and Google and multi billionaires.

It's not rocket science and maybe the pragmatist SKS may consider it.

There is no "t" in CAN do

Given the massive increase in NHS employment it seems that there is no difficulty in filling empty roles.

turbotubbs said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Mexicanpete said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Foxy said:

Morris_Dancer said:

bigjohnowls said:

Morris_Dancer said:

I'm amused by the notion private sector workers are going to be delighted to vote Labour given recent policies of flinging private sector taxpayers' cash at public sector workers and increasing taxes on the private sector while the public sector gets exempted.

Simple solution take a job in the public sector if you think it's well paid and easy money. I recommend a nursing assistant role on grade 2 (over 7000 vacancies )

It is fun how every 'public sector worker' becomes a nurse. And be glad of the private sector. That's the sole source of wages for the public sector.

That's just silly.

I do not only contribute to the economy when working at Spire, I do exactly the same work on the NHS. How is one a boost to the economy and the other a drain?

In purely financial terms, every public sector worker is a net cost. Your taxes in the public sector reduce the cost they don't make up for it.

Of course, the essential services (health, education, bin collection etc) are needed. But without the private sector they wouldn't be possible. If that were not the case, the state could simply employ everyone and watch miraculous tax revenues and endless growth.

Hammer the private sector to fund the desperately virtuous public sector and economic growth gets hit, which in the long term is not just bad for those in the private sector, but the zealous left so keen on spending tax revenue, which also drops.

Mr. Owls, the cultish applause for the NHS was indeed a disturbing trend,

Really enlightening to hear your thoughts on the disturbing trend of people being grateful for the NHS saving lives.

I think even ungrateful types like yourself still get treated for "free"

Mr. Owls, cultish devotion is always disturbing.

I didn't applaud for the local supermarket during the pandemic, even though I was very glad indeed it was there. As for ingratitude, I suppose you'll just have to use my avatar for a quick Two Minutes Hate.

Were there any other countries that had something similar to the applause for health workers thing (of which I did not partake)? Perhaps Britain is a country of cultish devotion (see also Royal family).

I hope you clapped for Boris when he took a bout of COVID for the team. He nearly died you know, but his resilience kept the national pecker up, so every Thursday we clapped for Boris. Stuff the lazy nurses.

On a connected note, and to make a change of tedious bicker from CASH, private v public sectors etc.
The combination of John Simpson and a French institute may have veins in foreheads bulging, but that's a feature not a bug.



https://x.com/JohnSimpsonNews/status/1866184573182218522

That's as appalling graph. Why does it stop at July 2020? What's it trying to prove?

It's worse than you think: it's the excess death rate (per month?), not the absolute death rate or cumulative deaths. You need a graph of total excess deaths to tell which country was worse, not this graph.

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I do wish we had some more Starmer fans here to balance out the site a bit. I feel like I’m the only one writing from that perspective.

We’ve still got a small contingent of lefties but overall the site feels far more hostile to the government that it has since I’ve been around these parts.

I liked this site because it had a range of views across the spectrum.

That is because the site tends towards opposition.

So, when the government was Conservative, they were getting panned on a minute by minute basis.

So, when the government is Labour, they were getting panned on a minute by minute basis.

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I do wish we had some more Starmer fans here to balance out the site a bit. I feel like I’m the only one writing from that perspective.

We’ve still got a small contingent of lefties but overall the site feels far more hostile to the government that it has since I’ve been around these parts.

I liked this site because it had a range of views across the spectrum.

The demography of the site is skewed male and old which is not fertile territory for Labour recently.

But, also, Labour received only 33.7% of the vote, and that included a lot of people on here who did so primarily as a means to eject the incumbent Tory government. As far as PB.com is concerned there were an extraordinarily large number of first time Labour general election voters given that Labour only received such a low vote share.

So the circumstances aren't really that conducive to having more Starmer-supporting posters.

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I do wish we had some more Starmer fans here to balance out the site a bit. I feel like I’m the only one writing from that perspective.

We’ve still got a small contingent of lefties but overall the site feels far more hostile to the government that it has since I’ve been around these parts.

I liked this site because it had a range of views across the spectrum.

I would suggest that is a result of the direction of travel by the government and not taking the people with them

With an approval rate in yesterday's yougov of just 18% and elected on 33.8% of the electorate they are unpopular

Mind you @Shecorns88 is the Labour supporter most in love with his government on this forum

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I do wish we had some more Starmer fans here to balance out the site a bit. I feel like I’m the only one writing from that perspective.

We’ve still got a small contingent of lefties but overall the site feels far more hostile to the government that it has since I’ve been around these parts.

I liked this site because it had a range of views across the spectrum.

Starmer is shite though. He's better than what he replaced, but only because he isn't what he replaced. He's just working his notice.

Malmesbury said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

I do wish we had some more Starmer fans here to balance out the site a bit. I feel like I’m the only one writing from that perspective.

We’ve still got a small contingent of lefties but overall the site feels far more hostile to the government that it has since I’ve been around these parts.

I liked this site because it had a range of views across the spectrum.

That is because the site tends towards opposition.

So, when the government was Conservative, they were getting panned on a minute by minute basis.

So, when the government is Labour, they were getting panned on a minute by minute basis.

Opposition can be against a government's policies, against a government's incompetence or against a government's sleaze.

I think most here would agree that Starmer's government has given plenty of scope for people to oppose it on grounds of both incompetence and sleaze.

Eabhal said:

viewcode said:

Nigelb said:

This is a very interesting read.
The proposals are pretty well tailor-made for the possibility of CPO-ing green or grey belt land, and building well over half a million houses, quickly.

The schemes would also generate somewhere between £50bn and £100bn in surplus value.

CREATING NEW TOWNS FAST AND WELL
https://www.britainremade.co.uk/newtowns

I had a quick look.

• It mandates trams. There's nothing a tram can't do that a bus can't do quicker and cheaper, and they have electric buses now with batteries.
  
• Much as I love "createstreets", I cannot share its approval of buildings over three stories. A building should be low enough for an old lady to get to the top floor with a stick, and for six men to carry her coffin down when she dies. Even the Soviets worked that out.
  

Only 15% of us live in flats (compared with 60% in Germany). There are more than enough bungalows to go around for older people. Or people with disabilities get first dibs on ground floor flats.

Trams are great in built up areas because they can load people much more quickly than a bus, enjoy prioritised signals etc. You don't have charging/battery issues either.

Because buses don't actual travel that many miles in a day, batteries aren't a problem. Interestingly, there is a move to battery trams - getting rid of the overhead wires (for at least a portion of the journeys) is a massive saving. Both in money and time to get approval/construct.

There have also been some interesting experiments in the design of lengthened buses, with each segment using smart steering to follow the previous one.

The cost per mile of building tram lines is insane - and must be factored into the overall costs. Yes, more effective once running, but with the same money, you could line the roads with electric buses.

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Police arrest 93 gang members behind £4m thefts in shoplifting crackdown
A new police unit has for the first time mapped the gangs targeting shops around the country to see where they're operating.
https://news.sky.com/story/flatplan-13270885

Geography is not just for running through fields of wheat. Who knew?

At first glance it sounds like a big operation. But if £4m the retail value, they are probably selling it on "less than" 50% so "less than" £2m. Divvied up between the 93 thats £21k each. Not unsubstantial but worth risking your liberty for? And then we are told the arrested ones are part of a much bigger crime gang. So far less than £21k each. Then expenses for travelling around the country.

Crime doesn't pay particularly well for most, maybe less than minimum wage, is what I take from that report.

Note to PB moderators: it's not possible to reply to this message because Vanilla has decided not to escape the angle bracket used as a "less than" sign in the blockquote, so it always says "body 1 character too short".

Malmesbury said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

If working in the public sector is so lucrative and such a piece of piss to do, why don't you all quit your shit finance/legal/consulting/management/self publishing author jobs and get on the gravy train?

Who said it was easy?

I will say, though, that the supremely high level of job security sounds nice, given a mix of AI and tech giant algorithm fiddling has rather shafted me this year.

Oh, and on 'easy': getting pay rises certainly become that way under Starmer.

Genuinely, what would you pay a nurse? What should the person giving you CPR in the back of an ambulance be on an hour? How much is it worth to you to get dragged out of your burning house at 3 in the morning? Why shouldn't train drivers earn a good wage?
Is emptying bins not worthy of a decent pay packet? What about the office staff who keep all the plates spinning in the background?
You won't do these jobs, but don't want to pay the people who will do them. Why?

What is a decent pay packet? Genuine question - how can we define that?

It doesn't look like anyone has had a go at this yet. I'll stick my neck out and suggest that for someone in mid-career in a job with some responsibility or skill required, it ought to be possible to earn enough to house and feed a family.

SO, for someone where I live that means per month:
Rent 1600
Other bills 400
Food and groceries 800
Kids clothing activities etc 500
Car 250
Personal clothes etc x 2 200
Total after tax £3750 - what's that as a Gross salary, about £60k?

Note - no allowance for leisure spending or holidays.

Also note: my wife (when I had one) would have far exceeded the £200 per month joint personal allowance on her own. But she did work part time to fit around childcare as many mothers so supported herself and I think that's a reasonable assumption to make, but £100 doesn't make a lot of difference

This is based very much on my own historic records, for most of the time when my children were younger money was tight and I had to budget to the penny to work out what was unavoidable. You can quibble on the odd 50 or hundred maybe but that's my ballpark.

The other thing I would note is that housing costs are roughly 50% of that - if property wasn't so ridiculously expensive then a lot of people would be a lot better off.

carnforth said:

noneoftheabove said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Police arrest 93 gang members behind £4m thefts in shoplifting crackdown
A new police unit has for the first time mapped the gangs targeting shops around the country to see where they're operating.
https://news.sky.com/story/flatplan-13270885

Geography is not just for running through fields of wheat. Who knew?

At first glance it sounds like a big operation. But if £4m the retail value, they are probably selling it on "less than" 50% so "less than" £2m. Divvied up between the 93 thats £21k each. Not unsubstantial but worth risking your liberty for? And then we are told the arrested ones are part of a much bigger crime gang. So far less than £21k each. Then expenses for travelling around the country.

Crime doesn't pay particularly well for most, maybe less than minimum wage, is what I take from that report.

Note to PB moderators: it's not possible to reply to this message because Vanilla has decided not to escape the angle bracket used as a "less than" sign in the blockquote, so it always says "body 1 character too short".

Reply to my reply where I replaced the less than symbols with their html codes (and you can even edit out my bit!).

Malmesbury said:

Eabhal said:

viewcode said:

Nigelb said:

This is a very interesting read.
The proposals are pretty well tailor-made for the possibility of CPO-ing green or grey belt land, and building well over half a million houses, quickly.

The schemes would also generate somewhere between £50bn and £100bn in surplus value.

CREATING NEW TOWNS FAST AND WELL
https://www.britainremade.co.uk/newtowns

I had a quick look.

• It mandates trams. There's nothing a tram can't do that a bus can't do quicker and cheaper, and they have electric buses now with batteries.
  
• Much as I love "createstreets", I cannot share its approval of buildings over three stories. A building should be low enough for an old lady to get to the top floor with a stick, and for six men to carry her coffin down when she dies. Even the Soviets worked that out.
  

Only 15% of us live in flats (compared with 60% in Germany). There are more than enough bungalows to go around for older people. Or people with disabilities get first dibs on ground floor flats.

Trams are great in built up areas because they can load people much more quickly than a bus, enjoy prioritised signals etc. You don't have charging/battery issues either.

Because buses don't actual travel that many miles in a day, batteries aren't a problem. Interestingly, there is a move to battery trams - getting rid of the overhead wires (for at least a portion of the journeys) is a massive saving. Both in money and time to get approval/construct.

There have also been some interesting experiments in the design of lengthened buses, with each segment using smart steering to follow the previous one.

The cost per mile of building tram lines is insane - and must be factored into the overall costs. Yes, more effective once running, but with the same money, you could line the roads with electric buses.

I think the point of adding trams when the site is in development is because if you don’t implement it now it will never be done in this country

Eabhal said:

Malmesbury said:

Eabhal said:

viewcode said:

Nigelb said:

This is a very interesting read.
The proposals are pretty well tailor-made for the possibility of CPO-ing green or grey belt land, and building well over half a million houses, quickly.

The schemes would also generate somewhere between £50bn and £100bn in surplus value.

CREATING NEW TOWNS FAST AND WELL
https://www.britainremade.co.uk/newtowns

I had a quick look.

• It mandates trams. There's nothing a tram can't do that a bus can't do quicker and cheaper, and they have electric buses now with batteries.
  
• Much as I love "createstreets", I cannot share its approval of buildings over three stories. A building should be low enough for an old lady to get to the top floor with a stick, and for six men to carry her coffin down when she dies. Even the Soviets worked that out.
  

Only 15% of us live in flats (compared with 60% in Germany). There are more than enough bungalows to go around for older people. Or people with disabilities get first dibs on ground floor flats.

Trams are great in built up areas because they can load people much more quickly than a bus, enjoy prioritised signals etc. You don't have charging/battery issues either.

Because buses don't actual travel that many miles in a day, batteries aren't a problem. Interestingly, there is a move to battery trams - getting rid of the overhead wires (for at least a portion of the journeys) is a massive saving. Both in money and time to get approval/construct.

There have also been some interesting experiments in the design of lengthened buses, with each segment using smart steering to follow the previous one.

The cost per mile of building tram lines is insane - and must be factored into the overall costs. Yes, more effective once running, but with the same money, you could line the roads with electric buses.

I suppose I come from the privileged position of the best bus service anywhere in the UK, and therefore look at trams as the natural next step. 250 people every 5 mins with 1 minute stops makes a substantial difference, with bus overload on Princes Street etc

But for the rest of the UK, I understand why buses should come first:

That is interesting for London. The initial privatisation led to all shapes and colours of buses ploughing their own furrows but the uplift fits Ken Livingstone making them red again and under TfL control, but still privately operated. (Some London buses are run by the Paris bus company. You can tell by their logo of a diagonal squiggly line which for us cognoscenti is the River Seine.)

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Eabhal said:

Malmesbury said:

Eabhal said:

viewcode said:

Nigelb said:

This is a very interesting read.
The proposals are pretty well tailor-made for the possibility of CPO-ing green or grey belt land, and building well over half a million houses, quickly.

The schemes would also generate somewhere between £50bn and £100bn in surplus value.

CREATING NEW TOWNS FAST AND WELL
https://www.britainremade.co.uk/newtowns

I had a quick look.

• It mandates trams. There's nothing a tram can't do that a bus can't do quicker and cheaper, and they have electric buses now with batteries.
  
• Much as I love "createstreets", I cannot share its approval of buildings over three stories. A building should be low enough for an old lady to get to the top floor with a stick, and for six men to carry her coffin down when she dies. Even the Soviets worked that out.
  

Only 15% of us live in flats (compared with 60% in Germany). There are more than enough bungalows to go around for older people. Or people with disabilities get first dibs on ground floor flats.

Trams are great in built up areas because they can load people much more quickly than a bus, enjoy prioritised signals etc. You don't have charging/battery issues either.

Because buses don't actual travel that many miles in a day, batteries aren't a problem. Interestingly, there is a move to battery trams - getting rid of the overhead wires (for at least a portion of the journeys) is a massive saving. Both in money and time to get approval/construct.

There have also been some interesting experiments in the design of lengthened buses, with each segment using smart steering to follow the previous one.

The cost per mile of building tram lines is insane - and must be factored into the overall costs. Yes, more effective once running, but with the same money, you could line the roads with electric buses.

I suppose I come from the privileged position of the best bus service anywhere in the UK, and therefore look at trams as the natural next step. 250 people every 5 mins with 1 minute stops makes a substantial difference, with bus overload on Princes Street etc

But for the rest of the UK, I understand why buses should come first:

That is interesting for London. The initial privatisation led to all shapes and colours of buses ploughing their own furrows but the uplift fits Ken Livingstone making them red again and under TfL control, but still privately operated. (Some London buses are run by the Paris bus company. You can tell by their logo of a diagonal squiggly line which for us cognoscenti is the River Seine.)

The RATP one that is also a face? I did not know that about London buses!

Pulpstar said:

Malmesbury said:

Dopermean said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

If they aren’t dodging taxes then farmers are destroying our heritage. Ghastly people.

Farmer in court over ploughing D-Day training grounds

Natural England seeks permanent injunction to protect Mesolithic settlement and Second World War artefacts

A farmer is in a court row with the countryside protection watchdog after ploughing fields home to “irreplaceable” D-Day relics.

Andrew Cooper, a tenant of National Trust-owned Croyde Hoe Farm in North Devon, is facing legal action over claims he is ploughing protected fields with artefacts from the Second World War, and the Neolithic and Mesolithic eras.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/devon-farmer-court-row-ploughing-fields-d-day-relics/

It reads like the Judge has been a bit of a pedantic d**k. Ruling that the protection only covers artefacts on the surface not buried. Does that mean that when he brings them to the surface by ploughing, which will damage them, that they are then protected?
DT BTL is hilariously confused, surely the origin of "Conservative" is "conserve"? (I jest)

I'm also surprised that you could economically grow crops on Baggy point.

The comic thing here is that after literal centuries of trying to protect stuff, the legal responsibility for such is confused. Process State at work.

The answer is - clear simple law on defining a protected piece of land, what is protected and by whom.

I would suspect that the main reason that this hasn't been sorted out is the problem of who then pays for maintaining land. Clear lines of responsibility would mean clear lines of responsibility.

The landowner is in this case National Trust. If the land has "irreplaceable artefacts" under the surface then a dig needs to be coordinated with them ASAP.

Reading the piece, it doesn't seem to me to be about digs; it's mainly about a farmer who wants to do what he wants with his land without regulating bodies interfering.

A tenant farmer has fought the case to Appeal Court level, and is imo arguing on dots and tittles. The claim afaics is that archaeological remains only count if they are on the surface, which seems illogical.

He previously received ~£200k of grants to maintain some of his fields. The piece is not clear whether it is the same fields.

I'd punt that the Telegraph are on it either to stir up farmers or stir up dust in their campaign against the NT.

Full piece:
https://archive.is/20241209175655/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/09/devon-farmer-court-row-ploughing-fields-d-day-relics/

Big_G_NorthWales said:

MattW said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

I was in town with my wife yesterday driving along the main street and I approached a pedestrian crossing on green, with pedestrians waiting on either side, when a young woman on her mobile stepped out straight in front of me absolutely oblivious of her surroundings

I did stop and she 'jumped' out of her skin and made a beeline into the nearest shop with everyone looking on incredulously

It was all captured on my in car dash cam and you have to hope she learned a lesson from it, but I doubt it

She was very lucky that I anticipated her walking out in front of me

Isn't that one for an "I'm here, wake up!" toot, which is iirc the only valid reason for hooting?

Ashley Neal's learning point yesterday was quite interesting about Zebra Crossings with various complications such as if it's out because of road works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7csyGpWmlKM

She did get a 'toot' that woke her up and why she jumped out of her skin !!!!!!!!!!!

Great !!