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Smoking, like cash, will soon be obsolete for younger generations – politicalbetting.com

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  • Andy_JS said:

    Support cash if you can.

    I don't get your Luddite obsession with cash.

    The sooner cash is eliminated the better. Filthy, dangerous, horrid thing.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135
    HYUFD said:

    I suspect a big smirk on Michael Martin's face on election night as the fresh faced young Harris has seen his big lead collapse to nothing after his gaffe with a carer and his FG will now end up junior partner again to MM's FF.

    Compared to the last Irish election in 2020 though SF are the biggest losers down 4%, FF down 1% and FG unchanged.

    Of the minor parties the Greens down 3%, Labour and PBF unchanged and Aontu the biggest gainers up almost 3%
    On this poll the SocDems are up 3.1% on 2020 and Aontu are up 2.1%

    "Aontu the biggest gainers."

    Although, the SocDems are standing only 26 candidates, while Aontu have a candidate in every one of the 43 constituencies.
  • And indeed for many customers, who have come to realise that cash is pointless.
    Mixing the conversations of cash and petrol stations, when I went to it a few days ago I joined the queue to pay and there was a lady at the front paying in stacks of coins which took ages to get counted. Stood there waiting while piles of coins were counted, then when she finished she turned around and saw the large queue behind her and said "oh, there wasn't a queue when I arrived".

    No, I bet there wasn't!

    Thankfully after she'd gone everyone else in front of me wasn't dicking around with cash and then I could just pay contactless myself.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135
    HYUFD said:

    They may but have been leaking to Aontu, who as the most anti immigration and anti abortion of the Irish parties shows even Ireland is not immune to the western swing to the populist right
    Aontu and Independent Ireland doing well could well be the story of this election, though at the moment it's mostly notable for the very modest changes on nearly five years ago.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,008

    One thing to bear in mind with the Irish election is that Sinn Fein have been much more ambitious with their candidate selection this time. They have 71 candidates, while in 2020 they stood only 42, of which 37 were elected. If they had stood more candidates in 2020 it's generally thought that they would have had more TDs elected, so they could make quite a few gains even with roughly the same vote share split, which was 24.5% - 22.2% - 20.9% for SF - FF - FG last time.

    What a good question. You are wondering if they can maintain efficiency of vote with extra candidates?

    Last time they must have targeted their most winnable, now stretching to least winnable targets? Yet it being great unknown how they do in these new targets, and they could win most through vote efficiency?

    We know who forms the government though, it won’t come as a surprise, with FF still no intention to coalition with SF, that it’s another FF-FG coalition.

    Back to SF standing more candidates, and my question, have FG and FF areas hardly shifted down the decades, guaranteeing them rock solid areas, for want of a better term the government changing “swing states” always tend to be the same ones as well? So is it right to guess, in such a 2 party system for so long, SF are a far greater threat in FF heartlands than FG heartlands?
  • For a moment I was getting my head round Bibi having Carling on tap in his man cave.
    Fridge full of fruit "cider" and Corona and a shelf of coloured gins as well, if the neck oil is off there's nothing worth drinking.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Mixing the conversations of cash and petrol stations, when I went to it a few days ago I joined the queue to pay and there was a lady at the front paying in stacks of coins which took ages to get counted. Stood there waiting while piles of coins were counted, then when she finished she turned around and saw the large queue behind her and said "oh, there wasn't a queue when I arrived".

    No, I bet there wasn't!

    Thankfully after she'd gone everyone else in front of me wasn't dicking around with cash and then I could just pay contactless myself.
    Ha! That’s another (less cited) reason why lots of shops and cafes etc have gone cashless… it only takes one crackpot to insist on paying in coinage and they risk losing customers due to the queue.

    Speed matters. One of the first businesses I ever saw going cashless (a coffee shop in Holborn, several years ago) said this was the main reason for its decision. Its business resolved on selling as much coffee as possible in a rush window between 8am and 9am. If the queue was too long, its customers went elsewhere.
  • Dopermean said:

    Fridge full of fruit "cider" and Corona and a shelf of coloured gins as well, if the neck oil is off there's nothing worth drinking.
    In contrast, reportedly, Clarkson serves up some decent beers despite being a devotee of delicately pink 'lady petrol'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534

    Aontu and Independent Ireland doing well could well be the story of this election, though at the moment it's mostly notable for the very modest changes on nearly five years ago.
    Independent Ireland also want tighter border controls to cut immigration and are particularly strong in rural areas and pro farmer
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Dopermean said:

    Fridge full of fruit "cider" and Corona and a shelf of coloured gins as well, if the neck oil is off there's nothing worth drinking.
    Indeed. Not a single cask ale on offer. What has the Black Country come to? Maybe stick with a nice kipper tie, as they say in Oldbury.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,008
    HYUFD said:

    Independent Ireland also want tighter border controls to cut immigration and are particularly strong in rural areas and pro farmer
    At the greater expense of FF or FG?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,973

    "You only use them when desperate" - well where else do you charge?

    Please don't say "at home".
    Well yeah. That's why it's so expensive - there isn't anywhere else convenient, a bit like motorway petrol stations, but on steroids. The demand curve is very steep.
  • HYUFD said:

    Independent Ireland also want tighter border controls to cut immigration and are particularly strong in rural areas and pro farmer
    KEEP CALMER
    and
    VOTE FARMER
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,236
    edited November 2024
    On the issue of cash, much to Anabobazina's chagrin, I am happy to predict that the UK will follow the progressive example of Norway and Sweden and reverse the trend away from cash, mandating that shops must accept it and advising all citizens to keep and use it.

    I am sure Anabob will sadly never see the light but those with more forethought have already rejected the cashless future.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,140
    edited November 2024

    On the issue of cash, much to Anabobazina's chagrin, I am happy to predict that the UK will follow the progressive example of Norway and Sweden and reverse the trend away from cash, mandating that shops must accept it and advising all citizens to keep and use it.

    I am sure Anabob will sadly never see the light but those with more forethought have already rejected the cashless future.

    I was in Oslo a few days ago and didn't see many people using cash, although when I tried it once in a convenience shop they did accept it. (Didn't know they'd just introduced a law saying cash must be accepted as Richard mentions below).

    https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/44934/norways-cashless-economy-drive-halted-by-new-cash-payment-rules
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    On the issue of cash, much to Anabobazina's chagrin, I am happy to predict that the UK will follow the progressive example of Norway and Sweden and reverse the trend away from cash, mandating that shops must accept it and advising all citizens to keep and use it.

    I am sure Anabob will sadly never see the light but those with more forethought have already rejected the cashless future.

    Do they also mandate that online businesses must accept cash? Or is it a regulation they only burden bricks-and-mortar outlets with?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,534

    At the greater expense of FF or FG?
    Probably FG
  • Do they also mandate that online businesses must accept cash? Or is it a regulation they only burden bricks-and-mortar outlets with?
    Read the article Andy links to. Or look for yourself. There are plenty more news articles about both Norway and Sweden reversing the drive towards a cashless society for many of the reasons you have always claimed don't matter. Clearly they have more foresight than you.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,767
    edited November 2024
    CNN just called two of the remaining House races - one each for Rep and Dem. So position now:

    Reps 220, Dems 214

    One race to call:

    CA 13 - Dem leads by 234 votes (total votes cast 209,000)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,140
    After arriving at Manchester Airport from Oslo, I ended up at Crewe train station, needed a coffee, and the platform cafe was only accepting cash because of a fault with their systems. Shows why cash can still be important.
  • No I won’t support cash if I can.

    It’s an archaic technology much as the cheque is.

    Does anyone miss the cheque?

    Why would anyone miss cash?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    edited November 2024

    Read the article Andy links to. Or look for yourself. There are plenty more news articles about both Norway and Sweden reversing the drive towards a cashless society for many of the reasons you have always claimed don't matter. Clearly they have more foresight than you.
    I’ve read the piece. It’s very light on detail. I do doubt though whether they will extend this burden to online businesses, which already have an edge over physical shops. Unless they make it universal, it’s yet more bad news for the high street. Going cashless is (or was) a neat way for proper shops to reduce their overheads.
  • Cash is as archaic as a physical phone line.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,140

    Cash is as archaic as a physical phone line.

    Don't broadband connections use physical phone lines?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,934

    I think that is a bit of fiction from the Daily Telegraph. Surely the vibe the Labour Party is putting out about the Chagos deal now is that it is not set in stone, and they have no intention to bring it to Parliament untill after Trump is sworn in.

    The truth could be a far more interesting story than what the Telegraph has gone with. Starmer government happy for Trump to ride to their rescue and “own the killing” of the Chagos deal, so they won’t have to do it themselves. Any hit from losing this deal will only last days or hours.

    Based on half hearted vibes and feet dragging now coming out of Labour on Chagos deal, I’m 100% convinced it’s not going to happen.
    Good point Rabbit. The Telegraph, a paper I took for decades (mainly because of their sports coverage) is now less reliable than Viz comic for accuracy of journalistic content.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,934

    Cash is as archaic as a physical phone line.

    To where would all those scammers call if no one had landlines?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Don't broadband connections use physical phone lines?
    They are being replaced with fibre. It’s basically the same as cash, going away slowly.

    People in general don’t have a phone line for the phone. That’s the point I was making.

    By the time I die cash won’t exist.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,934
    Andy_JS said:

    Don't broadband connections use physical phone lines?
    These days the "landline" piggybacks off the broadband line. A volte face from dial up internet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited November 2024
    Sharon Stone blames ‘ignorant, uneducated’ Americans for Trump’s win

    Adolescence is naive and ignorant and arrogant. And we are in our ignorant, arrogant adolescence. So, Americans who don’t travel, who 80 per cent don’t have a passport, who are uneducated, are in their extraordinary naivety.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2024/11/27/sharon-stone-blames-ignorant-uneducated-americans-trump-win/

    Ignornant, arrogant.....80% not having passports hasn't been true for ages. It 50/50 now and more travel than ever before due to the low cost airlines (at least until the crazy inflation).

    Calling half the country thickos seems a suboptimal approach.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,008
    edited November 2024

    Good point Rabbit. The Telegraph, a paper I took for decades (mainly because of their sports coverage) is now less reliable than Viz comic for accuracy of journalistic content.
    I can feel it changing even in my lifetime. Not just telegraph - who do cover racing very well - but all papers. What used to be on front, politics and current affairs, they used to try to be accurate, just spin it a bit - now they print things for effect, or playing politics, without even a nod to the truthful story.

    With Chagos, former head of MI6 hates it, Trumps incoming government hates it, new Mauritius PM doesn’t like it, the vibe now from Labour is happy to see it fold, on grounds others don’t like what they agreed with outgoing PM with nod from outgoing President. Absolute opposite from what Telegraph take is. Is it simply trying to set it up as huge humiliation and disaster for Starmer, who “fails to get through what he wanted?”
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited November 2024

    I can feel it changing even in my lifetime. Not just telegraph - who do cover racing very well - but all papers. What used to be on front, politics and current affairs, they used to try to be accurate, just spin it a bit - now they print things for effect, or playing politics, without even a nod to the truthful story.

    With Chagos, former head of MI6 hates it, Trumps incoming government hates it, new Mauritius PM doesn’t like it, the vibe now from Labour is happy to see it fold, on grounds others don’t like what they agreed with outgoing PM with nod from outgoing President. Absolute opposite from what Telegraph take is. Is it simply trying to set it up as huge humiliation and disaster for Starmer, who “fails to get away with what he wanted?”
    Its all about the clicks....Even the BBC do, lots more celeb nonsense e.g. Fans fume at missing Jason Donovan in Rocky Horror ....and it is a total non-story. Star doesn't do all performances, nooooooo, that never happens in showbiz, and his day off was displayed on websites and booking.
  • Lib Dem leader Ed Davey in bid for Christmas No 1
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy4q24ynp3o

    Disappointed its not the theme tune from The Fall Guy
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,140

    Sharon Stone blames ‘ignorant, uneducated’ Americans for Trump’s win

    Adolescence is naive and ignorant and arrogant. And we are in our ignorant, arrogant adolescence. So, Americans who don’t travel, who 80 per cent don’t have a passport, who are uneducated, are in their extraordinary naivety.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2024/11/27/sharon-stone-blames-ignorant-uneducated-americans-trump-win/

    Ignornant, arrogant.....80% not having passports hasn't been true for ages. It 50/50 now and more travel than ever before due to the low cost airlines (at least until the crazy inflation).

    Calling half the country thickos seems a suboptimal approach.

    Not a smart strategy for changing minds.
  • Czech billionaire set to clinch deal to buy Royal Mail
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy9j3revppqo

    What the angle here? The real estate Royal Mail own?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,140
    Good news. Let's hope they find it this time.

    "Fresh search for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 to start within weeks off the coast of Western Australia more than a decade after the tragedy"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14061169/new-search-malaysia-airlines-flight-MH370.html
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,008
    edited November 2024

    Its all about the clicks....Even the BBC do, lots more celeb nonsense e.g. Fans fume at missing Jason Donovan in Rocky Horror ....and it is a total non-story. Star doesn't do all performances, nooooooo, that never happens in showbiz, and his day off was displayed on websites and booking.
    You are absolutely right Urq, what used to be solid news websites have gone all clickbait.

    The MailOnline is worst/way ahead of the game with its a very very odd universe. As you say, it’s all set up that it’s important to care about the “Celebrity Bake Off Soggy Bottom Shame” story. And the story about someone we have never heard of and inexplicably have 2 forenames and appearance of fortune to have survived so much cosmetic modification, having coffee with a friend without engagement ring on shocker. let’s invent a name - Mystery as Mercedeh Zoe spotted in Starbucks without engagement ring.

    Like we care? Like it even makes any sense? 🤷‍♀️
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,140
    Maybe people vote for idiots when they feel there are too many "smart arses" around, as a sort of compensation.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,735

    No I won’t support cash if I can.

    It’s an archaic technology much as the cheque is.

    Does anyone miss the cheque?

    Why would anyone miss cash?

    Our milkman only accepted cheques until last year. To be fair, they are good for leaving outside your house inside a sandwich bag stuffed into an empty milk bottle. No one else can use them other than the recipient.

    But he did then discover internet banking.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,846
    edited November 2024
    Ofcom's annual Online Nation report provides more evidence for Elon that Britain is a communist hellhole as TwiX falls in the social media chart.

    Top 10
    1. YouTube
    2. Facebook
    3. Instagram
    4. TikTok
    5. Reddit
    6. TwiX
    7. LinkedIn
    8. Quora
    9. Pinterest
    10. Snapchat
    From page 41 of https://www.ofcom.org.uk/siteassets/resources/documents/research-and-data/online-research/online-nation/2024/online-nation-2024-report.pdf
  • Re Netanyahu arrest. It would not be unprecedented. We arrested Pinochet on a Spanish (?) warrant.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,846
    edited November 2024
    MattW said:

    As I understand the way this works (Elec Eng degree), streetlights used to have bulbs which would be High Pressure Sodium (the orange ones), or some form of incandescent. These would need maybe 200W of power, which would reduce by 60-80% when they were changed to LED (hence revenue savings).

    There would be a high power circuit along the street supplying a lot of lamps (use ~30 as an illustrative number, so 200W each = 6kW power perhaps from a 7kW circuit to give headroom). Then each streetlamp would have smaller wires inside the lamp standard. They would be in parallel so when one goes pop it does not kill all 30 streetlamps.

    When they drop to 50-60W required by the LED, that leaves 60-80% of the street cable capacity spare as the streetlamps are a smaller load now, or ~100-140W per streetlamp.

    So that leaves capacity to install your 4kW charger one every 25 or 30 or however many streetlamps, or a 2.5kW charger more often, or whatever, wired as a new parallel load from the street cable.

    It won't support a charger every streetlamp, but it may give a couple every street - which is enough to make a start on the infra, and is useful for top up charging, or if you use it for an afternoon or overnight once a week.

    There could be other factors, such as the supply might be 3-phase (I think 4 or 6 wires inside the street cable), so that even if something goes pop in the street it would only take out 1/3 of lights not the whole lot.

    Newer estates etc would have a somewhat different design of electricity infrastructure, as required.

    That's my understanding. HTH.
    Lamp post (and street-side) chargers are starting to appear round here but not yet in any great numbers. It is all right saying they are available for all-night charging but that is not really the case if someone else got there first. No-one will set their alarm for 2am so they can move the car once the battery is full; that charger will be blocked for the whole night. Even that assumes the first car is electric rather than just looking for a handy place to park.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,113

    I know some of you PB Tories believe Netanyah to be a great guy, but he really is not a nice man. Even Tory grandee Max Hastings believes him to be a very unpleasant chap.

    (Snip)
    I need to pull you up on that. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one poster who has said Netanyahu is a great guy, let alone PB Tories. Many posters were saying he was a shit before October 6th.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,113
    On a potential Russian collapse:

    We need to remember the Soviet experience in Afghanistan, for ten years to 1989. In those ten grinding years, they suffered fifteen thousand killed, and fifty thousand injured. The withdrawal was, in part, powered by the mothers and wives of the soldiers.

    We have seen far higher Russian casualties in Ukraine, yet the population are not revolting. Why?

    It cannot just be media control; the Soviet press and media were not exactly free. IMV it may well be that the great Russian public remember what happened after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.

    Before, Russia was a great power as dominant leader of the USSR. The withdrawal from Afghanistan was more a consequence of the collapse of the Soviet Union than a cause, but politically it showed the other Soviet republics that the Soviet Union was a hollow shell and was beatable. So the Soviet Union split, and Russia was plunged into a decade of economic and social chaos. This ended after a strong and stable leader took over the reins.

    This is all within living memory. I posit (perhaps incorrectly...) that many Russian citizens equate defeat in Afghanistan with a diminishment of their country, and are afraid that the same thing will happen with a defeat in Ukraine. And they trust that their leader will pick them out of the morass, as he did twenty years ago. It is safer to continue on, with the prospect of a larger (territorially...) Russia and increased Russian worldwide influence, than it is to stop the war, with the chaos that could cause. They see the potential rewards of success as greater than the risks of failure. The current pain is only temporary.

    The connection is not that strong; the Afghanistan war was relatively cheap (monetarily) for Russia, and the Soviet Union's political and fiscal problems were legion years before they even invaded Afghanistan. The withdrawal might be seen as an effect of the Soviet Union's problems, rather than a cause. But the Russian people might not remember it that way,
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Opponents of actual cash are proponents, unwittingly (I hope), of making us alarmingly vulnerable to unfortunate systems failures and errors, and, worse, deliberate hacking attempts by foreign actors.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Andy_JS said:
    Thankfully they went on to collapse nearly as fast as the rouble. 319/8 at the close of play.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,934
    edited November 2024

    I need to pull you up on that. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one poster who has said Netanyahu is a great guy, let alone PB Tories. Many posters were saying he was a shit before October 6th.
    I specifically suggested "some" and I'm not going to embarrass the guilty, although there is a particular mindset here which would have "right wing good" everything else very bad. @DecrepiterJohnL mentioned Pinochet earlier. There we have an example of that mindset. Although rounding up left wingers and moderates and taking them to a convenient stadium might find some merits of itself here anyway.

    Surely tacit support for Netanyahu on here is a given when several posters have justified the flattening of Gaza, the West Bank and South and Central Beirut as a proportionate reaction to October 7?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,051
    biggles said:

    Our milkman only accepted cheques until last year. To be fair, they are good for leaving outside your house inside a sandwich bag stuffed into an empty milk bottle. No one else can use them other than the recipient.

    But he did then discover internet banking.
    This talk of cheques is making me feel nostalgic. I haven’t used and probably not even seen a cheque since 2007 when I left for Switzerland. I was with a friend the other Friday and he was sorting out some payments for his daughter’s school trip and various other school things on a weird app the school used and we laughed that it was so much easier in a way when you could give a child or be given a cheque to take into school.

    There was something a lot more satisfying about writing out a big fat cheque for a car or something than typing numbers into your phone or computer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,934

    Got me a small discount on my takeout this evening :D
    Mr. Anabob “How much for 2 fish suppers?” Chip shop staff “£25 or £20 for cash.”.Mr Anabob “Here’s my card. It’s worth £5 for the convenience of not using cash”.

    That sort of makes one of Anabob's points for him. A recorded for posterity transaction is auditable and very good for the exchequer. Cash hobbles and the grey economy are less easy to manage without notes and coins.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,113

    I specifically suggested "some" and I'm not going to embarrass the guilty, although there is a particular mindset here which would have "right wing good" everything else very bad. @DecrepiterJohnL mentioned Pinochet earlier. There we have an example of that mindset. Although rounding up left wingers and moderates and taking them to a convenient stadium might find some merits of itself here anyway.

    Surely tacit support for Netanyahu on here is a given when several posters have justified the flattening of Gaza, the West Bank and South and Central Beirut as a proportionate reaction to October 7?
    As I say, I cannot remember anyone saying "Netanyahu is a great guy". That's different from saying that Israel is in a terrible position due to Palestinian actions, and had to do something. Although most of the 'PB Tories' on here seem to say what they did was wrong/too much, and that Netanyahu is a shit.

    As for your comment: I'd argue that's also the case for leftists, on steroids. We even have idiots who praise Stalin, Lenin, and the Soviet Union. And as for tankies...
  • Mr. Pete, the state tracking when, where, and how much you spend is not an argument in favour of digital cash.

    "But think of all the state surveillance you're missing out on with cash!"
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,934
    algarkirk said:

    Kemi's problem, in addition to so far just not being all that good, is that everything she says either points up the uselessness of the governing outfit she was part of by agreeing with it, or by shifting away from it, or by drawing attention to how hard it is for Labour to deal with the Tory legacy.

    Unless and until - there is time - she deals with core philosophy, core principle and coherent policy, and what it is to be a mainstream Tory right now (I voted Tory for 50 years and have no idea what they think on any of these things) she is wasting her time and ours.
    She was better yesterday, at least not laying it on thick about Trump/ Musk/Lindsey Graham's hostility towards the Labour Government. Stellantis was an easy hit except 15 months ago they had set out Brexit as the key reason for closing Luton (are there really only 1100 jobs left at Vauxhall in Luton already?) And the ELV target programme was set by her Government (N.B. They were not wrong). Starmer "jetting off" to the G20 was also an odd jibe and supporting the Russian hijacked petition to call for a rerun of the election was naive and a future hostage to fortune for when she becomes PM.
  • Fucksake, getting light at 7.03am
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Mr. Anabob “How much for 2 fish suppers?” Chip shop staff “£25 or £20 for cash.”.Mr Anabob “Here’s my card. It’s worth £5 for the convenience of not using cash”.
    That sort of makes one of Anabob's points for him. A recorded for posterity transaction is auditable and very good for the exchequer. Cash hobbles and the grey economy are less easy to manage without notes and coins.

    Indeed it does. I have many more points on this topic too, which I am happy to share with my friends here on PB. 😃
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,785

    She was better yesterday, at least not laying it on thick about Trump/ Musk/Lindsey Graham's hostility towards the Labour Government. Stellantis was an easy hit except 15 months ago they had set out Brexit as the key reason for closing Luton (are there really only 1100 jobs left at Vauxhall in Luton already?) And the ELV target programme was set by her Government (N.B. They were not wrong). Starmer "jetting off" to the G20 was also an odd jibe and supporting the Russian hijacked petition to call for a rerun of the election was naive and a future hostage to fortune for when she becomes PM.
    I have just caught up with PMQs on BBC Sounds, and thought a pretty poor performance by Badenoch. I expected this to be her strength, but she is all over the place and Starmer seems increasingly used to batting her questions away.

    It's a bit early to call her as another flopped Tory leader, but she does need to come up with a more coherent narrative. Her own speech at the CBI was rambling and vague.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Good morning, everyone.

    Opponents of actual cash are proponents, unwittingly (I hope), of making us alarmingly vulnerable to unfortunate systems failures and errors, and, worse, deliberate hacking attempts by foreign actors.

    Just imagine for a moment that there might be better ways of fostering financial security than demanding a reluctant populace walks around with tokens and shards in its pocket/handbag.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,934
    Sandpit said:

    Thankfully they went on to collapse nearly as fast as the rouble. 319/8 at the close of play.
    I think that is probably about par but we won't know until England bat. NZ's bowlers did very well against India.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Mr. Pete, the state tracking when, where, and how much you spend is not an argument in favour of digital cash.

    "But think of all the state surveillance you're missing out on with cash!"

    (Use the reply button FFS)

    Do you think ‘The State’ knows how much wine I bought last month, or how often I use Betfair?
  • Mr. Anabobazina, stop complaining about the lack of a reply button, 'FFS'.

    "(Use the reply button FFS)

    Do you think ‘The State’ knows how much wine I bought last month, or how often I use Betfair? "

    My mother used to work in a school. In the early days when they first started collecting information about the race of children the school was reassured that data would never be used for anything really. Later, the school got criticised for not having 'enough' non-white children.

    If there's ever no actual money and it's all virtual, the data collected will put together a comprehensive profile of people. Spending habits and movements. It's also perfect for a 0.5% transaction tax, which cannot be evaded in any way. If the information is viewed by someone it should not be, that can be used to see where someone is, what they're spending, etc.

    I have zero faith in the UK political class and state sector not to be careless, authoritarian, and needlessly balloon the number of people with access to such information.

    And that's without considering how monumentally dangerous and stupid it would be to create a situation in which a systems failure or nefarious acts could leave people unable to pay bills or buy food.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,602

    I don't get your Luddite obsession with cash.

    The sooner cash is eliminated the better. Filthy, dangerous, horrid thing.
    Have you read about Synapse?

    Your reliance on technology for your world wealth is short sighted to say the least

    https://news.bloomberglaw.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/matt-levines-money-stuff-synapse-still-cant-find-its-money?context=search&index=0

    The summary:

    People thought that they had money in a bank

    There is money in the bank

    Synapse was the company keeping the record of who owned what money

    Synapse went pop

    Now the banks don’t know whose money is whose
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,990
    edited November 2024
    Those who normally hate regulation and red tape on business seem very keen to regulate and impose red tape on them when it suits. British business has never been required to accept cash in exchange for goods or services.
  • Foxy said:

    I have just caught up with PMQs on BBC Sounds, and thought a pretty poor performance by Badenoch. I expected this to be her strength, but she is all over the place and Starmer seems increasingly used to batting her questions away.

    It's a bit early to call her as another flopped Tory leader, but she does need to come up with a more coherent narrative. Her own speech at the CBI was rambling and vague.

    Yesterday highlighted two of the challenges Badenoch faces. One is that internet memes don't, by themselves, make a political leader. Referencing The Petition was just silly.

    The other is that she was a moderately senior figure in the 2019-24 governments. The record of that government is going to stick to her like a piece of discarded chewing gum.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,934
    Foxy said:

    I have just caught up with PMQs on BBC Sounds, and thought a pretty poor performance by Badenoch. I expected this to be her strength, but she is all over the place and Starmer seems increasingly used to batting her questions away.

    It's a bit early to call her as another flopped Tory leader, but she does need to come up with a more coherent narrative. Her own speech at the CBI was rambling and vague.

    In my adult life by far the best at PMQs was the new Chancellor of Oxford. He was extremely witty, quick on his feet and informed. Even someone as skilled as Blair was caught out regularly. Sad to say it didn't do him any good with the general public.

    Kemi has a lot to do to make the Tories a credible party of government. She needs to find credible ways of reducing the size of the State, reducing the tax burden, increasing both public and private investment, skills and training in the UK and providing public services at a cost that the economy can bare. Being better at PMQs probably doesn't even feature on the list.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,934

    As I say, I cannot remember anyone saying "Netanyahu is a great guy". That's different from saying that Israel is in a terrible position due to Palestinian actions, and had to do something. Although most of the 'PB Tories' on here seem to say what they did was wrong/too much, and that Netanyahu is a shit.

    As for your comment: I'd argue that's also the case for leftists, on steroids. We even have idiots who praise Stalin, Lenin, and the Soviet Union. And as for tankies...
    "Palestinian actions"? Are you suggesting Hamas were acting on behalf of the women and children of Gaza? I would suggest they were operating on behalf of their own sick agenda, nothing more, nothing less.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135

    On a potential Russian collapse:

    We need to remember the Soviet experience in Afghanistan, for ten years to 1989. In those ten grinding years, they suffered fifteen thousand killed, and fifty thousand injured. The withdrawal was, in part, powered by the mothers and wives of the soldiers.

    We have seen far higher Russian casualties in Ukraine, yet the population are not revolting. Why?

    It cannot just be media control; the Soviet press and media were not exactly free. IMV it may well be that the great Russian public remember what happened after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.

    Before, Russia was a great power as dominant leader of the USSR. The withdrawal from Afghanistan was more a consequence of the collapse of the Soviet Union than a cause, but politically it showed the other Soviet republics that the Soviet Union was a hollow shell and was beatable. So the Soviet Union split, and Russia was plunged into a decade of economic and social chaos. This ended after a strong and stable leader took over the reins.

    This is all within living memory. I posit (perhaps incorrectly...) that many Russian citizens equate defeat in Afghanistan with a diminishment of their country, and are afraid that the same thing will happen with a defeat in Ukraine. And they trust that their leader will pick them out of the morass, as he did twenty years ago. It is safer to continue on, with the prospect of a larger (territorially...) Russia and increased Russian worldwide influence, than it is to stop the war, with the chaos that could cause. They see the potential rewards of success as greater than the risks of failure. The current pain is only temporary.

    The connection is not that strong; the Afghanistan war was relatively cheap (monetarily) for Russia, and the Soviet Union's political and fiscal problems were legion years before they even invaded Afghanistan. The withdrawal might be seen as an effect of the Soviet Union's problems, rather than a cause. But the Russian people might not remember it that way,

    That's an interesting idea.

    One other factor might be time. As well as the number of deaths it takes time for opinions to change and for people to gain the confidence to protest. So it took many years for the movement of mothers and wives to grow.

    We know Putin has done a lot to shield core Russia from the war. Were there perhaps more casualties of soldiers from Moscow during Afghanistan? That could be an important difference.

    And post-Soviet Russia is perhaps a bit less shy about compensating bereaved families financially. Had the USSR provided cars and a stack of roubles to grieving mothers, would the anti-war protest movement gained as much traction?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,602

    No I won’t support cash if I can.

    It’s an archaic technology much as the cheque is.

    Does anyone miss the cheque?

    Why would anyone miss cash?

    Yes, I miss the cheque

    When I feel that a business has behaved poorly I insist on paying with a check

    It is a wonderfully British form of passive aggression and I’d hate to lose that option
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,869
    DavidL said:

    In my adult life by far the best at PMQs was the new Chancellor of Oxford. He was extremely witty, quick on his feet and informed. Even someone as skilled as Blair was caught out regularly. Sad to say it didn't do him any good with the general public.

    Kemi has a lot to do to make the Tories a credible party of government. She needs to find credible ways of reducing the size of the State, reducing the tax burden, increasing both public and private investment, skills and training in the UK and providing public services at a cost that the economy can bare. Being better at PMQs probably doesn't even feature on the list.
    Is there any reason she'll be any better at the really hard stuff?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,934

    Fucksake, getting light at 7.03am

    Thank you Leon.
  • Mr. Gate, that's correct, before digital money existed and payment apps, nobody legislated to make real money something that had to be expected.

    It should be, at least for vital goods and services.

    Being able to pay with money is not some bizarre, arcane desire. It's the normal way of doing things.

    A banking system failing will not make your fiver disappear. A twenty pound note will still function regardless of the actions of foreign hackers.
  • "Palestinian actions"? Are you suggesting Hamas were acting on behalf of the women and children of Gaza? I would suggest they were operating on behalf of their own sick agenda, nothing more, nothing less.
    Good morning

    I have never said Netanyahu is a great guy and shame on you for suggesting it

    He and Hamas are both heinous but I posed a fair question which you twisted and implied something that I utterly reject

    Maybe address the question

    What do you think if Netanyahu was arrested in the UK not least as only yesterday France rejected the idea
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,602

    Czech billionaire set to clinch deal to buy Royal Mail
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy9j3revppqo

    What the angle here? The real estate Royal Mail own?

    Can we say the Czech’s in the post?

    I think he owns a logistics company in Eastern Europe, so a shift to parcel delivery
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,135

    (Use the reply button FFS)

    Do you think ‘The State’ knows how much wine I bought last month, or how often I use Betfair?
    I am still hoping to buy a house. I have been told by my mortgage broker not to use my card to make any purchases at an off licence, or in the pub, because the bank wants six months of bank statements and if they see anything like that I will get flagged as a potential alcoholic, and alcoholics are one of the groups more likely to default on a mortgage.

    Similarly there are proposals for the betting companies to be told to share information about how much their customers bet, on the basis of identifying "problem gamblers", and restricting their gambling.

    These are two examples. When the data is there, it will be used.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,934
    Chris said:

    Is there any reason she'll be any better at the really hard stuff?
    Possibly not, her efforts in respect of the Post Office do not inspire confidence. But that is the priority. The Tories need a group of thinkers that she can engage with just like Thatcher and Cameron had. No one person has the answers to all these questions, let alone having the time to develop the detail of what is required.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,785
    DavidL said:

    In my adult life by far the best at PMQs was the new Chancellor of Oxford. He was extremely witty, quick on his feet and informed. Even someone as skilled as Blair was caught out regularly. Sad to say it didn't do him any good with the general public.

    Kemi has a lot to do to make the Tories a credible party of government. She needs to find credible ways of reducing the size of the State, reducing the tax burden, increasing both public and private investment, skills and training in the UK and providing public services at a cost that the economy can bare. Being better at PMQs probably doesn't even feature on the list.
    I think the reason that she is proving so piss-poor at PMQs is precisely because she hasn't got a plan on the things in her second paragraph, or at least not one that her party would back. I suspect that she would slash welfare and scrap the featherbedding of pensioners, but knows that would kill off the Tory grey vote.
  • NEW THREAD

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,602

    On a potential Russian collapse:

    We need to remember the Soviet experience in Afghanistan, for ten years to 1989. In those ten grinding years, they suffered fifteen thousand killed, and fifty thousand injured. The withdrawal was, in part, powered by the mothers and wives of the soldiers.

    We have seen far higher Russian casualties in Ukraine, yet the population are not revolting. Why?

    It cannot just be media control; the Soviet press and media were not exactly free. IMV it may well be that the great Russian public remember what happened after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan.

    Before, Russia was a great power as dominant leader of the USSR. The withdrawal from Afghanistan was more a consequence of the collapse of the Soviet Union than a cause, but politically it showed the other Soviet republics that the Soviet Union was a hollow shell and was beatable. So the Soviet Union split, and Russia was plunged into a decade of economic and social chaos. This ended after a strong and stable leader took over the reins.

    This is all within living memory. I posit (perhaps incorrectly...) that many Russian citizens equate defeat in Afghanistan with a diminishment of their country, and are afraid that the same thing will happen with a defeat in Ukraine. And they trust that their leader will pick them out of the morass, as he did twenty years ago. It is safer to continue on, with the prospect of a larger (territorially...) Russia and increased Russian worldwide influence, than it is to stop the war, with the chaos that could cause. They see the potential rewards of success as greater than the risks of failure. The current pain is only temporary.

    The connection is not that strong; the Afghanistan war was relatively cheap (monetarily) for Russia, and the Soviet Union's political and fiscal problems were legion years before they even invaded Afghanistan. The withdrawal might be seen as an effect of the Soviet Union's problems, rather than a cause. But the Russian people might not remember it that way,

    I don’t know about Afghanistan but one of the features of the Ukrainian invasion is who the Russian soldiers are.

    It’s minorities and mercenaries who are doing the dying. Not fine upstanding young Muscovites. That may change the ability to the wives and mothers to apply political pressure.

    (Plus the babushkas are one of Putin’s strongest support bases, presumably because of the memory of better times as you suggest)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,785

    Good morning

    I have never said Netanyahu is a great guy and shame on you for suggesting it

    He and Hamas are both heinous but I posed a fair question which you twisted and implied something that I utterly reject

    Maybe address the question

    What do you think if Netanyahu was arrested in the UK not least as only yesterday France rejected the idea
    I would be fine with him being arrested and tried at the ICC.

    Let him defend his war crimes there.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,934
    Foxy said:

    I think the reason that she is proving so piss-poor at PMQs is precisely because she hasn't got a plan on the things in her second paragraph, or at least not one that her party would back. I suspect that she would slash welfare and scrap the featherbedding of pensioners, but knows that would kill off the Tory grey vote.
    Its early days and there is a hell of a lot of work to do. The last Conservative government completely lost its way because it didn't have a clear vision of what it was trying to achieve. The result was a program of completely daft ideas (like Rwanda) and very few policies that were actually relevant to people. So far Labour in government are proving much the same. Good government is hard work. Osborne was the last one to really apply himself to it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,934

    Fucksake, getting light at 7.03am

    Thank you Leon.

    Mr. Pete, the state tracking when, where, and how much you spend is not an argument in favour of digital cash.

    "But think of all the state surveillance you're missing out on with cash!"

    All your recorded spending can be used not only by HMRC but your card use can be used by law enforcement to retrace your whereabouts in the event of substantiating criminality. Although if the PDQ machine doesn't convict you the CCTV at the gas station when paying by cash can.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,113

    That's an interesting idea.

    One other factor might be time. As well as the number of deaths it takes time for opinions to change and for people to gain the confidence to protest. So it took many years for the movement of mothers and wives to grow.

    We know Putin has done a lot to shield core Russia from the war. Were there perhaps more casualties of soldiers from Moscow during Afghanistan? That could be an important difference.

    And post-Soviet Russia is perhaps a bit less shy about compensating bereaved families financially. Had the USSR provided cars and a stack of roubles to grieving mothers, would the anti-war protest movement gained as much traction?
    From memory, a quarter of 'Russian' casualties in Afghanistan were Ukrainian. Which is an interesting little factoid.
  • DavidL said:

    Possibly not, her efforts in respect of the Post Office do not inspire confidence. But that is the priority. The Tories need a group of thinkers that she can engage with just like Thatcher and Cameron had. No one person has the answers to all these questions, let alone having the time to develop the detail of what is required.
    As I said yesterday Kemi is young and has a lot to learn but she is different and has plenty of time to grow into her role and change the perception of the public about the party

    The pile on her yesterday came from posters who wouldn't vote for her anyway and it's a bit rich when their party languishes with a 19% approval rating and Reeves has delivered an anti growth budget widely attacked by those who actually create the wealth to pay for her public sector largesse
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Mr. Anabobazina, stop complaining about the lack of a reply button, 'FFS'.

    "(Use the reply button FFS)

    Do you think ‘The State’ knows how much wine I bought last month, or how often I use Betfair? "

    My mother used to work in a school. In the early days when they first started collecting information about the race of children the school was reassured that data would never be used for anything really. Later, the school got criticised for not having 'enough' non-white children.

    If there's ever no actual money and it's all virtual, the data collected will put together a comprehensive profile of people. Spending habits and movements. It's also perfect for a 0.5% transaction tax, which cannot be evaded in any way. If the information is viewed by someone it should not be, that can be used to see where someone is, what they're spending, etc.

    I have zero faith in the UK political class and state sector not to be careless, authoritarian, and needlessly balloon the number of people with access to such information.

    And that's without considering how monumentally dangerous and stupid it would be to create a situation in which a systems failure or nefarious acts could leave people unable to pay bills or buy food.

    There is no lack of reply button, it’s there. You just inexplicably fail to use it… which means other posters have to trawl back up the thread to ascertain what you are referring to!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,113

    "Palestinian actions"? Are you suggesting Hamas were acting on behalf of the women and children of Gaza? I would suggest they were operating on behalf of their own sick agenda, nothing more, nothing less.
    You've somewhat moved the discussion away from what you originally said.

    Well, the Hamas operatives are Palestinians, not some strange furry aliens from the Planet Zog.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    I am still hoping to buy a house. I have been told by my mortgage broker not to use my card to make any purchases at an off licence, or in the pub, because the bank wants six months of bank statements and if they see anything like that I will get flagged as a potential alcoholic, and alcoholics are one of the groups more likely to default on a mortgage.

    Similarly there are proposals for the betting companies to be told to share information about how much their customers bet, on the basis of identifying "problem gamblers", and restricting their gambling.

    These are two examples. When the data is there, it will be used.

    I am still hoping to buy a house. I have been told by my mortgage broker not to use my card to make any purchases at an off licence, or in the pub, because the bank wants six months of bank statements and if they see anything like that I will get flagged as a potential alcoholic, and alcoholics are one of the groups more likely to default on a mortgage.

    Similarly there are proposals for the betting companies to be told to share information about how much their customers bet, on the basis of identifying "problem gamblers", and restricting their gambling.

    These are two examples. When the data is there, it will be used.
    The your broker is an idiot. All the banks is looking for is whether you can afford the mortgage, salary etc. This “my mortgage depends on my not using my card in the pub” is an only-on-PB classic I’m afraid.
  • I’ve read the piece. It’s very light on detail. I do doubt though whether they will extend this burden to online businesses, which already have an edge over physical shops. Unless they make it universal, it’s yet more bad news for the high street. Going cashless is (or was) a neat way for proper shops to reduce their overheads.
    It was and is utterly insignificant in comparison to the other costs imposed by Government. And when the digital system breaks down, as it does regularly now on a local level, people can still buy stuff. At least a dozen times this year I have seen signs in shops saying 'cash only' because the internet is down.In Bingham a couple of months ago the whole town had to revert to cash only because the digital system wasn't working. Without cash how much money would be lost by those shops (actually a lot was lost because many people didn't have cash). And that is before you even start to consider malign players.
  • The your broker is an idiot. All the banks is looking for is whether you can afford the mortgage, salary etc. This “my mortgage depends on my not using my card in the pub” is an only-on-PB classic I’m afraid.
    I have this bridge for you to buy.


    But cash only. ;)
  • DavidL said:

    In my adult life by far the best at PMQs was the new Chancellor of Oxford. He was extremely witty, quick on his feet and informed. Even someone as skilled as Blair was caught out regularly. Sad to say it didn't do him any good with the general public.

    Kemi has a lot to do to make the Tories a credible party of government. She needs to find credible ways of reducing the size of the State, reducing the tax burden, increasing both public and private investment, skills and training in the UK and providing public services at a cost that the economy can bare. Being better at PMQs probably doesn't even feature on the list.
    However, there's also the question of who does what. Someone needs to be doing the policy wonk work to think through a Conservative plan for the 2030s and beyond, but that's what think tankers and philosophical MPs are for.

    Kemi has some specific jobs that only she can do. One is setting the big picture direction of travel. Another is choosing the best lieutenants from the MPs she has available. But the key one is being the only current Conservative politician who most voters have headspace for. She has to look and sound more plausible than the incumbent, or it's game over.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,934

    As I said yesterday Kemi is young and has a lot to learn but she is different and has plenty of time to grow into her role and change the perception of the public about the party

    The pile on her yesterday came from posters who wouldn't vote for her anyway and it's a bit rich when their party languishes with a 19% approval rating and Reeves has delivered an anti growth budget widely attacked by those who actually create the wealth to pay for her public sector largesse
    As a citizen of the UK I have been genuinely disappointed with the new government so far. Its not too late for there to be some upside and no sane person is going to wish them other than well since we live with the consequences. There was some new ideas yesterday on rejigging Job Centres that sounded hopeful and I have liked some of what Streeting has been saying.

    The budget was a massive disappointment. There was so little original thinking. So little new ideas for investment. So much additional spending without any real thought of whether this was affordable and compatible with growth. She would have been better increasing IT than making it more expensive to employ people. She should have hidden this by sorting out the mess with NI and IT and by making everyone pay the same rate. But no, we had a depressing combination of incompetence, contradictory policies and incoherence. I'd really hoped for better.
  • Andy_JS said:

    My local Marks and Spencer cafe has just become cashless. Disappointing. You also have to use big screens to order things, like in McDonalds or Burger King.

    Which is utterly ghastly, and people hate.

    There will be a backlash to this.
  • Andy_JS said:

    My local Marks and Spencer cafe has just become cashless. Disappointing. You also have to use big screens to order things, like in McDonalds or Burger King.

    Which is utterly ghastly, and people hate.

    There will be a backlash to this.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,195

    Aontu and Independent Ireland doing well could well be the story of this election, though at the moment it's mostly notable for the very modest changes on nearly five years ago.
    How does one pronounce Aontu ?

    It's easier to say than, perhaps, Illaungraffanavrankagh - but can someone elucidite?
This discussion has been closed.