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Despite things going suboptimally so far Labour still has the benefit of the doubt

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Comments

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,789

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Christ I hate getting old

    Just wait until organs stop working. No, not that one, the important ones. No, the important important ones. Oh, never mind... :)
    Actually growing old is just another phase in life, and as you age you realise that you cannot do as you did, as in my case no more foreign travel, regular hospital visits (that I am grateful for), and even now using a stick but you are still alive when many of your peers are not and you just say a silent prayer of gratitude for all your blessings
    It annoys me. I don't like being defeated, despite years of practice. It tasks me. I'm very solutions-orientated (surprise!) and I hate the fact of a problem I can't solve.

    The science-fiction author Christopher Priest once wrote a short story called "Inverted World" (distinct from his novel of the same name), an adventure set in an Earth transposed to a non-Euclidean universe, where the only points of gravitational stability were stable even though the earth was moving, which meant that every city had to move constantly East to West to stay alive, building bridges to cross rivers as they went. The short story deals with [spoilers] how they cope when they arrive at the Portuguese coast and they try to build a bridge across the Atlantic...

    I hate the fact that the Atlantic coast is approaching... :(
  • felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Insulting the working class live on TV is OK then
    Working class and bigots are not synonyms.

    As much as some people wish to pretend they are.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392

    Is there going to be a TV debate between Kemi and JENRICK?

    Might be entertaining.

    I agree, could get a bit tasty.
    GB News are doing leaders debate I believe.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,467
    edited October 11

    felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Insulting the working class live on TV is OK then
    He said (privately, as he thought) to a colleague that she was a bigoted woman. Which she was. He didn't stand up on the Six O'Clock News and declare it to the nation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    Incompetent from the start.. unlikely to change. There are some pretty nasty people in the Labour Party who will cause trouble... just as there were nasty Tories in the last Govt.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Christ I hate getting old

    Just wait until organs stop working. No, not that one, the important ones. No, the important important ones. Oh, never mind... :)
    Yeah I’m still quite fit and healthy so I should stop whining. I’ve got friends my age already dead or dying (to be cheerful)

    It’s just that I drift through life pretending I look “ohh about 43” (which I did well into my 50s). And then occasionally I get a reminder of reality. Like a passport photo
    Your ears will start to get bigger once you're past 70. Don't know how you feel about that.
    Isn’t that an optical illusion because it’s actually your head shrinking and the ears stay the same?

    Still not exactly wonderful
    No the ears and nose grow the full length of the life.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,467
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    Arf. Fair point.
  • felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Insulting the working class live on TV is OK then
    He said (privately, as he thought) to a colleague that she was a bigoted woman. Which she was. He didn't stand up on the Six O'Clock News and declare it to the nation.
    The six o'clock news did though and the media revelled in their gotcha moment
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,467

    felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Insulting the working class live on TV is OK then
    He said (privately, as he thought) to a colleague that she was a bigoted woman. Which she was. He didn't stand up on the Six O'Clock News and declare it to the nation.
    The six o'clock news did though and the media revelled in their gotcha moment
    And that was Brown's fault... how?
  • Is there going to be a TV debate between Kemi and JENRICK?

    Might be entertaining.

    I agree, could get a bit tasty.
    GB News are doing leaders debate I believe.
    I will not watch as I do not watch GB news
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    edited October 11

    felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Insulting the working class live on TV is OK then
    Brown was an Idiot despite some on here who thought he was a genius cf Jonathan...
  • felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Insulting the working class live on TV is OK then
    He said (privately, as he thought) to a colleague that she was a bigoted woman. Which she was. He didn't stand up on the Six O'Clock News and declare it to the nation.
    The six o'clock news did though and the media revelled in their gotcha moment
    And that was Brown's fault... how?
    He said it
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Mrs Duffy was a long-standing Rochdale resident who had watched the town population change enormously over her later years. People like her need sympathy and major efforts towards re-education on both sides.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,796
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Christ I hate getting old

    Just wait until organs stop working. No, not that one, the important ones. No, the important important ones. Oh, never mind... :)
    Yeah I’m still quite fit and healthy so I should stop whining. I’ve got friends my age already dead or dying (to be cheerful)

    It’s just that I drift through life pretending I look “ohh about 43” (which I did well into my 50s). And then occasionally I get a reminder of reality. Like a passport photo
    Your ears will start to get bigger once you're past 70. Don't know how you feel about that.
    Your..er..downstairs ears as well I’m told.
    A button mushroom with a dried out old baseball mitt hanging from it as it was described to me.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    edited October 11
    Two other observations on that polling.

    One is that most of the government's actions have been more popular than unpopular. And the big negative- the prison releases- was pretty much inevitable, even if the riots hadn't happened. The problem seems to be that there haven't been enough government actions. That really ought to be fixable, which is not to say that it will be.

    The other is the partisan split on the got better/got worse question. It's telling us something, but are RefCon voters really experiencing reality as worse since July?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,467

    felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Insulting the working class live on TV is OK then
    He said (privately, as he thought) to a colleague that she was a bigoted woman. Which she was. He didn't stand up on the Six O'Clock News and declare it to the nation.
    The six o'clock news did though and the media revelled in their gotcha moment
    And that was Brown's fault... how?
    He said it
    Well yes, but he didn't say it publicly. I'm sure you have been critical of others in private conversations, we all have.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231
    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Christ I hate getting old

    Just wait until organs stop working. No, not that one, the important ones. No, the important important ones. Oh, never mind... :)
    Yeah I’m still quite fit and healthy so I should stop whining. I’ve got friends my age already dead or dying (to be cheerful)

    It’s just that I drift through life pretending I look “ohh about 43” (which I did well into my 50s). And then occasionally I get a reminder of reality. Like a passport photo
    This YouTube details why common facial techniques (fillers, Botox, thread lifts, partial lifts) don't work once you go past 50 since the 50-plus problems are caused by muscle weakness and collagen-poor skin sagging, which those techniques don't address or have bad failure rates

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUWJR72eIPI

    Ones that still work for men your age would be hair transplants, skin resurfacing, upper and lower blepharoplasties and full deep-plane facelifts that address the face and neck. You will also want to consider liposuction around the waist. If you do Ozempic pair it with exercise to minimise skin sagging: what you have doesn't snap back any more. Stop taking drugs (I know, I know, but you aren't 17 any more). Get your pancreas checked: if you develop diabetes you won't heal any more and that really messes you up.

    Swimming weekly is always good advice.

    You have the money and time and health to do these things and you will be grateful for it at 70.
    :lol:

    Where are you getting this nonsense from?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,467

    felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Mrs Duffy was a long-standing Rochdale resident who had watched the town population change enormously over her later years. People like her need sympathy and major efforts towards re-education on both sides.
    Agree that there are reasons for her becoming bigoted. But a bigot she was.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,055
    Taz said:

    Labour rampers continue to cling on to the Budget, but in truth, Reeves has little option but to raise taxes *somewhere*, and the subsequent squealing is hardly going to restore Labour popularity.

    In any case, the job of the Budget is not to make the government popular.

    Starmer has simply failed to push out a vision.
    That’s what Britain sorely lacks.

    I voted labour, I feel a little let down. I absolutely believed the ‘ready for govt’ line they span. In reality it was on a par with the ‘oven ready deal’ lone.

    I’m hoping the budget steadies the ship but it is misstep after misstep.

    They still have time to turn it around.
    Yes. If they're able to get a hold on things that are important to the public, all this shaky start will be long-forgotten well before the next GE.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    In a choice between DP and its potential investment and the Transport Secretary Number 10 throws Louise Haigh under the bus.

    Still, she still has the engagement on social media to comfort her.

    https://x.com/itvjoel/status/1844766992424661364?s=61
  • felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Insulting the working class live on TV is OK then
    He said (privately, as he thought) to a colleague that she was a bigoted woman. Which she was. He didn't stand up on the Six O'Clock News and declare it to the nation.
    The six o'clock news did though and the media revelled in their gotcha moment
    And that was Brown's fault... how?
    He said it
    Well yes, but he didn't say it publicly. I'm sure you have been critical of others in private conversations, we all have.
    This is the moment

    https://youtu.be/jFl_evwML2M?si=f49vpptGZIl9sOLq
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528

    Labour rampers continue to cling on to the Budget, but in truth, Reeves has little option but to raise taxes *somewhere*, and the subsequent squealing is hardly going to restore Labour popularity.

    In any case, the job of the Budget is not to make the government popular.

    Starmer has simply failed to push out a vision.
    That’s what Britain sorely lacks.

    Yes this is what I don't understand, the budget won't help make Labour more popular. Again, what bothers me is that they've done no homework and not prepared the ground at all before the election. Labour came in and the first thing they did was give in to the unions, it has set the scene for voters realising (correctly or incorrectly) that they haven't changed and the next 5 years will be spent paying ever more tax to pay for a bigger and bigger state.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Mrs Duffy was a long-standing Rochdale resident who had watched the town population change enormously over her later years. People like her need sympathy and major efforts towards re-education on both sides.
    Agree that there are reasons for her becoming bigoted. But a bigot she was.
    There's no uniform standard of bigotry, so you can't say that with anything like confidence. My recollection is that she was just giving a factual report. And given that it was Rochdale, and we now know what was happening there, potentially she was showing enormous restraint.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    We haven't even had one day with 1000+ people crossing yet. We did have close to 1000 one day, but numbers are down on average, and the government aren't banging on about the issue all the time. I think its saliency will drop.
    It will drop naturally from this point forward because of us getting into the stormy season. Labour will hope that they will be able to effectively use the breathing space to change the narrative - either through some effectove action to stop the crossings or through changing people's perceptions of the crossing. They have about 6 months to do this.

    If I were advising them I would suggest a number of things.

    1. Have an effective asylum system in place in France. Properly manned and located at the actual ports rather than in Paris. STart showingsome asylum seekers being granted asylum and let into the country doing it properly rather than risking the crossing.

    2. Reverse May's idiotic decision to include students in the net migration figures.

    3. Spend some serious time and money explaining how immigration is necessary and helps the country rather than pandering to the Reform/Tory vote. Change the narrative on immigration whilst exhibting proper control over the numbers (note this is very different to necessariy reducing net migration). Make it clear that those entering the country legally are doing it at the Country's invitation because we want them rather than making it seem like it is something over which we have no control.

    4. Do to the people smugglers what they did to the rioters. Heavy and hard. And advertise that fact just as they did with the rioters. Gross negligent manslaughter carries a maximum of life imprisonment so anyone driving a boat where people die is charged with that.
    There is the small issue here that they make one of the migrants drive the boat
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Christ I hate getting old

    Just wait until organs stop working. No, not that one, the important ones. No, the important important ones. Oh, never mind... :)
    Yeah I’m still quite fit and healthy so I should stop whining. I’ve got friends my age already dead or dying (to be cheerful)

    It’s just that I drift through life pretending I look “ohh about 43” (which I did well into my 50s). And then occasionally I get a reminder of reality. Like a passport photo
    Your ears will start to get bigger once you're past 70. Don't know how you feel about that.
    Isn’t that an optical illusion because it’s actually your head shrinking and the ears stay the same?

    Still not exactly wonderful
    No the ears and nose grow the full length of the life.
    Ear hairs seem to grow at a rapid rate once you pass 50.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    You didn't. You're far too right wing on every level to be able to do that. You'd have been betraying your deepest beliefs.

    No, you're just saying you did for the following reasons: 1. So you don’t look like a loser. 2. To try and taint the landslide.

    But it's not really working. Not with me anyway.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,135
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    The last time a Tory was elected in Camden Town was probably at this 1937 by-election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_St_Pancras_North_by-election
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    Don't worry. If Starmer panics and clamps down on immigration completely I'm sure he's capable of killing London's energy too.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    The last time a Tory was elected in Camden Town was probably at this 1937 by-election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_St_Pancras_North_by-election
    Camden has some slight chance of being nice.

    I think there was a Waitrose and then it retreated.

    Just bomb, very heavily, all of it, and then rebuild - it could be nice.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    You didn't. You're far too right wing on every level to be able to do that. You'd have been betraying your deepest beliefs.

    No, you're just saying you did for the following reasons: 1. So you don’t look like a loser. 2. To try and taint the landslide.

    But it's not really working. Not with me anyway.
    “Taint the landslide”. My god - you really do believe this

    One more time. I voted in hope rather than expectation. No way I was voting Tory after that shit show - and 1m migrants a year

    I was tempted by Reform but then Farage made that apparently pro-Putin remark and I thought Ugh

    Lib Dems and greens lol

    So I thought: why not give Labour one chance. In the hope - against all the evidence - that they actually will be good and they’ve secretly got some brilliant ideas. If they are to enact great reforms they will need a large majority. So be it

    I expected to be disappointed. My expectations have been overwhelmingly fulfilled

    There. That’s the last time I’ll explain it. And it’s also the last and only time I will ever vote Labour
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392
    Not been good polling in swing states this week for Harris. Looking pretty bleak frankly.

    Aditya Chakrabortty looks at why these voters don't feel the economy is working for them and why they will vote Trump 2.0

    "I checked in on Mike Stout. We first talked in a diner in Pittsburgh in 2012, the year Obama won re-election. Mike and his wife, Steffi, had worked in Pennsylvania’s steel industry, with good union pay and pensions.

    Life for the Stouts has been frozen for years. At the root of democratic capitalism is an old promise: tomorrow will be better than today. But that promise was broken long ago for Mike’s family and many of his friends’ households, too. He knew plenty of former steelworkers in this swing state who next month would vote Trump. Sure he was a liar, “but at least he lies to their faces, rather than ignoring them”."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/10/kamala-harris-presidential-election-us-economy-wages
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,135
    Canadian Tories are now averaging a lead of 20% in the opinion polls. Looks pretty unrecoverable for Trudeau.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_45th_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    Omnium said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    The last time a Tory was elected in Camden Town was probably at this 1937 by-election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_St_Pancras_North_by-election
    Camden has some slight chance of being nice.

    I think there was a Waitrose and then it retreated.

    Just bomb, very heavily, all of it, and then rebuild - it could be nice.
    Nah. It’s beautiful in its own gritty fucked up post-industrial way. You step over the fent addicts, attracted by the throbbing energy of it all

    And then you get quiet moments when suddenly the crowds thin - for a moment - this is just now


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    You didn't. You're far too right wing on every level to be able to do that. You'd have been betraying your deepest beliefs.

    No, you're just saying you did for the following reasons: 1. So you don’t look like a loser. 2. To try and taint the landslide.

    But it's not really working. Not with me anyway.
    “Taint the landslide”. My god - you really do believe this

    One more time. I voted in hope rather than expectation. No way I was voting Tory after that shit show - and 1m migrants a year

    I was tempted by Reform but then Farage made that apparently pro-Putin remark and I thought Ugh

    Lib Dems and greens lol

    So I thought: why not give Labour one chance. In the hope - against all the evidence - that they actually will be good and they’ve secretly got some brilliant ideas. If they are to enact great reforms they will need a large majority. So be it

    I expected to be disappointed. My expectations have been overwhelmingly fulfilled

    There. That’s the last time I’ll explain it. And it’s also the last and only time I will ever vote Labour
    Look. I agree Labour have been a shitshow so far, apart from locking up rioters very quickly and throwing away the key, but it is a tad early to just write this government off.

    At least give them a year.

    Thatch was in deep shit quite quickly on iirc.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Christ I hate getting old

    Just wait until organs stop working. No, not that one, the important ones. No, the important important ones. Oh, never mind... :)
    Yeah I’m still quite fit and healthy so I should stop whining. I’ve got friends my age already dead or dying (to be cheerful)

    It’s just that I drift through life pretending I look “ohh about 43” (which I did well into my 50s). And then occasionally I get a reminder of reality. Like a passport photo
    Your ears will start to get bigger once you're past 70. Don't know how you feel about that.
    Your..er..downstairs ears as well I’m told.
    A button mushroom with a dried out old baseball mitt hanging from it as it was described to me.
    That is quite vivid. I like button mushrooms but the next one is going to test me.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392

    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    Don't worry. If Starmer panics and clamps down on immigration completely I'm sure he's capable of killing London's energy too.
    Maybe we could just only allow migration into Camden? Keep up Leon's supply of the young and the hot.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    You didn't. You're far too right wing on every level to be able to do that. You'd have been betraying your deepest beliefs.

    No, you're just saying you did for the following reasons: 1. So you don’t look like a loser. 2. To try and taint the landslide.

    But it's not really working. Not with me anyway.
    “Taint the landslide”. My god - you really do believe this

    One more time. I voted in hope rather than expectation. No way I was voting Tory after that shit show - and 1m migrants a year

    I was tempted by Reform but then Farage made that apparently pro-Putin remark and I thought Ugh

    Lib Dems and greens lol

    So I thought: why not give Labour one chance. In the hope - against all the evidence - that they actually will be good and they’ve secretly got some brilliant ideas. If they are to enact great reforms they will need a large majority. So be it

    I expected to be disappointed. My expectations have been overwhelmingly fulfilled

    There. That’s the last time I’ll explain it. And it’s also the last and only time I will ever vote Labour
    Look. I agree Labour have been a shitshow so far, apart from locking up rioters very quickly and throwing away the key, but it is a tad early to just write this government off.

    At least give them a year.

    Thatch was in deep shit quite quickly on iirc.

    Nope. The Chagos surrender alone is enough for me to loathe them into eternity
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392
    MaxPB said:

    Labour rampers continue to cling on to the Budget, but in truth, Reeves has little option but to raise taxes *somewhere*, and the subsequent squealing is hardly going to restore Labour popularity.

    In any case, the job of the Budget is not to make the government popular.

    Starmer has simply failed to push out a vision.
    That’s what Britain sorely lacks.

    Yes this is what I don't understand, the budget won't help make Labour more popular. Again, what bothers me is that they've done no homework and not prepared the ground at all before the election. Labour came in and the first thing they did was give in to the unions, it has set the scene for voters realising (correctly or incorrectly) that they haven't changed and the next 5 years will be spent paying ever more tax to pay for a bigger and bigger state.
    A reminder once again that Blair and Brown were bloody good.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    The last time a Tory was elected in Camden Town was probably at this 1937 by-election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_St_Pancras_North_by-election
    Camden has some slight chance of being nice.

    I think there was a Waitrose and then it retreated.

    Just bomb, very heavily, all of it, and then rebuild - it could be nice.
    Nah. It’s beautiful in its own gritty fucked up post-industrial way. You step over the fent addicts, attracted by the throbbing energy of it all

    And then you get quiet moments when suddenly the crowds thin - for a moment - this is just now


    That's a great snap.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,789
    edited October 11

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    Leon said:

    Christ I hate getting old

    Just wait until organs stop working. No, not that one, the important ones. No, the important important ones. Oh, never mind... :)
    Yeah I’m still quite fit and healthy so I should stop whining. I’ve got friends my age already dead or dying (to be cheerful)

    It’s just that I drift through life pretending I look “ohh about 43” (which I did well into my 50s). And then occasionally I get a reminder of reality. Like a passport photo
    This YouTube details why common facial techniques (fillers, Botox, thread lifts, partial lifts) don't work once you go past 50 since the 50-plus problems are caused by muscle weakness and collagen-poor skin sagging, which those techniques don't address or have bad failure rates

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUWJR72eIPI

    Ones that still work for men your age would be hair transplants, skin resurfacing, upper and lower blepharoplasties and full deep-plane facelifts that address the face and neck. You will also want to consider liposuction around the waist. If you do Ozempic pair it with exercise to minimise skin sagging: what you have doesn't snap back any more. Stop taking drugs (I know, I know, but you aren't 17 any more). Get your pancreas checked: if you develop diabetes you won't heal any more and that really messes you up.

    Swimming weekly is always good advice.

    You have the money and time and health to do these things and you will be grateful for it at 70.
    :lol:

    Where are you getting this nonsense from?
    A small mail order firm in Cleveland. Where do you get yours from? :)

    OK, I'll bite. Which ones are nonsense?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,584

    MaxPB said:

    Labour rampers continue to cling on to the Budget, but in truth, Reeves has little option but to raise taxes *somewhere*, and the subsequent squealing is hardly going to restore Labour popularity.

    In any case, the job of the Budget is not to make the government popular.

    Starmer has simply failed to push out a vision.
    That’s what Britain sorely lacks.

    Yes this is what I don't understand, the budget won't help make Labour more popular. Again, what bothers me is that they've done no homework and not prepared the ground at all before the election. Labour came in and the first thing they did was give in to the unions, it has set the scene for voters realising (correctly or incorrectly) that they haven't changed and the next 5 years will be spent paying ever more tax to pay for a bigger and bigger state.
    A reminder once again that Blair and Brown were bloody good.
    Or at least, had rather more of a xlue than this lot.
    I thought at the time I loathed Tony Blair. Then Gordon Brown took over and it turned out what I felt about Blair had actually been mild dislike.

    All that said, I have a very Tory friend (sorry, shades of another poster here) who owns a SME who consider Gordon Brown the best wealth-creating chancellor of all the time he owned a business. So clearly he wasn't as bad as I assumed.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,317
    Andy_JS said:

    Canadian Tories are now averaging a lead of 20% in the opinion polls. Looks pretty unrecoverable for Trudeau.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_45th_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls

    Who would have guessed that progressivism in Canada would hit the buffers? It seemed invincible until very recently.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,280

    Two other observations on that polling.

    One is that most of the government's actions have been more popular than unpopular. And the big negative- the prison releases- was pretty much inevitable, even if the riots hadn't happened. The problem seems to be that there haven't been enough government actions. That really ought to be fixable, which is not to say that it will be.

    The other is the partisan split on the got better/got worse question. It's telling us something, but are RefCon voters really experiencing reality as worse since July?

    A lot of that voting bloc are pensioners, who've now lost their WFA. So reality is worse for them as far as they are concerned.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:

    Labour rampers continue to cling on to the Budget, but in truth, Reeves has little option but to raise taxes *somewhere*, and the subsequent squealing is hardly going to restore Labour popularity.

    In any case, the job of the Budget is not to make the government popular.

    Starmer has simply failed to push out a vision.
    That’s what Britain sorely lacks.

    Yes this is what I don't understand, the budget won't help make Labour more popular. Again, what bothers me is that they've done no homework and not prepared the ground at all before the election. Labour came in and the first thing they did was give in to the unions, it has set the scene for voters realising (correctly or incorrectly) that they haven't changed and the next 5 years will be spent paying ever more tax to pay for a bigger and bigger state.
    A reminder once again that Blair and Brown were bloody good.
    Or at least, had rather more of a xlue than this lot.
    I thought at the time I loathed Tony Blair. Then Gordon Brown took over and it turned out what I felt about Blair had actually been mild dislike.

    All that said, I have a very Tory friend (sorry, shades of another poster here) who owns a SME who consider Gordon Brown the best wealth-creating chancellor of all the time he owned a business. So clearly he wasn't as bad as I assumed.
    Brown rose a boom - and ignored any signs it was a boom until after the crash.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    edited October 11
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    The last time a Tory was elected in Camden Town was probably at this 1937 by-election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_St_Pancras_North_by-election
    Camden has some slight chance of being nice.

    I think there was a Waitrose and then it retreated.

    Just bomb, very heavily, all of it, and then rebuild - it could be nice.
    Nah. It’s beautiful in its own gritty fucked up post-industrial way. You step over the fent addicts, attracted by the throbbing energy of it all

    And then you get quiet moments when suddenly the crowds thin - for a moment - this is just now


    That's a great snap.
    Thanks

    I remember walking through Camden Market sometime during the pando, probably lockdown 3, when it was this bitterly cold bleak deserted place. Not a soul. Doors falling off hinges. Smashed windows. Monumentally sad...

    And I thought "this is it, it will never recover. London is finished, Camden is finished, this is some awful inflection point..."

    And now it is back, bigger than ever, and completely RAMMED with kids and families and teens all having a blast

    A lesson there
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,584
    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    London doesn't have to do it alone.
    The growth in Manchester over the past ten years jas been remarkable. Manchester is, if anything*, a younger city than London. It's hard, in Manchester, to recognise the story of national decline. Granted there is a lot of grot - but good grief it's a different city to 20 years ago. Which in turn was a very different city to 20 years before that.

    *figure pulled out of my arse but feels right.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,983
    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    But you forget. Starmer has now set up a super tough “border control task force” which will sort everything

    I’m beginning to conclude Starmer is

    1 actually quite stupid and

    2 he therefore really believes crap like this. He’s a Woke apparatchik. He thinks everything can be solved by more bureaucracy
    To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is more stupid, the stupid guy or the guy that voted for him?
    A man is allowed to dream, even if it becomes a nightmare

    Old Cornish saying
    You voted for this, own it.
    That doesn't make sense. Making a decision doesn't compel you to stick pretend-cheerfully to it despite everything (though often it is human nature to do so). If you decide to go to a pub, and it turns out to be shit (because it has karaoke on, for example, or because all the decent beer is off), you don't have to pretend it's turned out brilliantly. It's entirely reasonable to say 'actually I wish I'd chosen somewhere else'.
    But going from voting Labour to viewing them as Satan's representatives on earth in the space of a few weeks is not rationally explicable.

    One side of the equation or the other is wrong. Either he didn't vote Labour or the anger and derision is mainly for show

    I think I know which. But it doesn't really matter so I'll leave it there. We don't want a loose meandering thread.
    I’m afraid I did vote Labour. But I like how it irks you

    Also, are you seriously doubting my ability to do a complete volte face over… SEVERAL MONTHS?

    I can change my entire religion in an afternoon. Then change it back again after a beer
    The last time a Tory was elected in Camden Town was probably at this 1937 by-election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_St_Pancras_North_by-election
    Camden has some slight chance of being nice.

    I think there was a Waitrose and then it retreated.

    Just bomb, very heavily, all of it, and then rebuild - it could be nice.
    Nah. It’s beautiful in its own gritty fucked up post-industrial way. You step over the fent addicts, attracted by the throbbing energy of it all

    And then you get quiet moments when suddenly the crowds thin - for a moment - this is just now


    That's a great snap.
    Thanks

    I remember walking through Camden Market sometime during the pando, probably lockdown 3, when it was this bitterly cold bleak deserted place. Not a soul. Doors falling off hinges. Smashed windows. Monumentally sad...

    And I thought "this is it, it will never recover. London is finished, Camden is finished, this is some awful inflection point..."

    And now it is back, bigger than ever, and completely RAMMED with kids and families and teens all having a blast

    A lesson there
    Those days when you could stalk the streets of London were amazing. It's back but not so great.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    edited October 11
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    London doesn't have to do it alone.
    The growth in Manchester over the past ten years jas been remarkable. Manchester is, if anything*, a younger city than London. It's hard, in Manchester, to recognise the story of national decline. Granted there is a lot of grot - but good grief it's a different city to 20 years ago. Which in turn was a very different city to 20 years before that.

    *figure pulled out of my arse but feels right.
    I really must visit Manchester again. I haven't been for 15 years at least: I need to see this change

    Also I like early industrial sites and cities, they have noom

    One of the noomiest places on earth is Coalbrookdale. You can sense that - yes, the world changed here

    Incidentally CERN also has that. Tons of Noom. A trillion trillion bosons of Noom, whizzing around the Large Hadron Collider, smashing into glittering Noomons

    CERN is almost as powerfully noomy as Coalbrookdale. It is that good
  • My girlfriend dumped me by text — and my iPhone sent me a summary

    Software engineer Nick Spreen was testing Apple AI when it summarised a text message as: ‘No longer in a relationship; wants belongings from apartment.’
    new


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/technology-uk/article/my-girlfriend-dumped-me-by-text-and-my-iphone-sent-me-a-summary-znsmq5qdd
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,983

    Labour rampers continue to cling on to the Budget, but in truth, Reeves has little option but to raise taxes *somewhere*, and the subsequent squealing is hardly going to restore Labour popularity.

    In any case, the job of the Budget is not to make the government popular.

    Starmer has simply failed to push out a vision.
    That’s what Britain sorely lacks.

    That's because he has no vision.

    He's a tedious administrator who defies the State and bureaucracy.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,764
    edited October 11

    Not been good polling in swing states this week for Harris. Looking pretty bleak frankly.

    Aditya Chakrabortty looks at why these voters don't feel the economy is working for them and why they will vote Trump 2.0

    "I checked in on Mike Stout. We first talked in a diner in Pittsburgh in 2012, the year Obama won re-election. Mike and his wife, Steffi, had worked in Pennsylvania’s steel industry, with good union pay and pensions.

    Life for the Stouts has been frozen for years. At the root of democratic capitalism is an old promise: tomorrow will be better than today. But that promise was broken long ago for Mike’s family and many of his friends’ households, too. He knew plenty of former steelworkers in this swing state who next month would vote Trump. Sure he was a liar, “but at least he lies to their faces, rather than ignoring them”."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/10/kamala-harris-presidential-election-us-economy-wages

    I agree not great polls, but I think bleak is perhaps a tad overegging it.

    Fundamentally the polling shows its a tossup. We have always known it will be close.

    I think on balance Harris is still more likely to win than Trump. Dems are investing heavily in GOTV, there are positives down-ballot, and her favourability ratings are OK.

    BUT that's not to suggest it's a shoo in.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
    Spain senses our weakness. This is just one of the consequences of the Chagos Surrender, just one of the many reasons it was a catastrophic and unforced moral, military and political error
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    ...

    felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    No, Torpedogate was a veritable flesh wound compared with RAFgate... one speaks only of the latter in hushed tones. It is simply not suitable for a family forum.
    I always think it shows a weakness when a poster apologises for an error but then some still seem to delight in ignoring it

    I corrected my mistake about taking down the ballistic missiles and replicated the Ministry of Defence statement tha RAF planes were involved in the action that night

    Pity we are not all perfect but can correct our errors

    In over 62,000 posts I have erred on occasions but try to convey accurate information often accompanied by quotes from Sky, Guardian, Independent and others
    This is a Conservative blog and you are quite rightly all piling into the Commies.

    BigG. you have been like a terrier in calling out the most egregious corruption of the last decade. Currygate, Goonergate, Glassesgate, Victoria'ssecretgate, RAFgate, Angie'shousegate and Torpedogate, to name but a few.

    Anabob you are not playing nicely on BigG's gates. "Go, walk out the door,...you're not welcome anymore". It's all going a bit Correct Horse Battery with everyone piling in on you, I thought Felix was particularly vicious.

    @Anabobazina they have tumbled your game and you need a really flamboyant flounce to go out in style! My anti- PBTory flounce a fortnight ago was a bit shite so I can't offer up any advice
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,829
    Andy_JS said:

    Canadian Tories are now averaging a lead of 20% in the opinion polls. Looks pretty unrecoverable for Trudeau.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_45th_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls

    Nowhere before him, and Nowhere at the end.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,280
    Can anyone actually name any wrong decisions *yet* Labour have made other than WFA cut that 1) Sunak and Hunt *wouldn't have done* and 2) are unpopular with the public?
    Because early release of prisoners, handing over sovereignty over the Chagos Islands etc. would have happened under Sunak anyway and coming to terms with the unions is broadly supported.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,878
    edited October 11
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    London doesn't have to do it alone.
    The growth in Manchester over the past ten years jas been remarkable. Manchester is, if anything*, a younger city than London. It's hard, in Manchester, to recognise the story of national decline. Granted there is a lot of grot - but good grief it's a different city to 20 years ago. Which in turn was a very different city to 20 years before that.

    *figure pulled out of my arse but feels right.
    Yes, Manchester is a definitely on the up - largely because it offers all the amenities of London, with much of the opportunities, and at a fraction of the cost.

    (It's a shame the airport is so shit.)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,344

    Can anyone actually name any wrong decisions *yet* Labour have made other than WFA cut that 1) Sunak and Hunt *wouldn't have done* and 2) are unpopular with the public?
    Because early release of prisoners, handing over sovereignty over the Chagos Islands etc. would have happened under Sunak anyway and coming to terms with the unions is broadly supported.

    £22 bn on carbon capture.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Can anyone actually name any wrong decisions *yet* Labour have made other than WFA cut that 1) Sunak and Hunt *wouldn't have done* and 2) are unpopular with the public?
    Because early release of prisoners, handing over sovereignty over the Chagos Islands etc. would have happened under Sunak anyway and coming to terms with the unions is broadly supported.

    £22 bn on carbon capture.
    But then you are not too keen on the Conservative promotion of mini nukes either. Better join the tidal barrage Greens.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
    Spain senses our weakness. This is just one of the consequences of the Chagos Surrender, just one of the many reasons it was a catastrophic and unforced moral, military and political error
    Yeah but, people will say “fair do’s”.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,412
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
    Spain senses our weakness. This is just one of the consequences of the Chagos Surrender, just one of the many reasons it was a catastrophic and unforced moral, military and political error
    Off to St Malo for lunch tomorrow - will demolish some oysters for you.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,280

    Can anyone actually name any wrong decisions *yet* Labour have made other than WFA cut that 1) Sunak and Hunt *wouldn't have done* and 2) are unpopular with the public?
    Because early release of prisoners, handing over sovereignty over the Chagos Islands etc. would have happened under Sunak anyway and coming to terms with the unions is broadly supported.

    £22 bn on carbon capture.
    1) Pretty crucial if we are serious about net zero (particularly industries who need natural gas and can't find an alternative)
    2) It's over 25 years
    3) Can't find much evidence of a public outcry outside the usual suspects (e.g partisan Tories, anti-woke grifters).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,829
    Nigelb said:

    Tesla's robot walks like Joe Biden....
    https://x.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1844780441292754994

    Building robots to move like humans may be technically impressive but surely for actual use of robotics restricting to human shapes and dimensions is missing the main point of having machines be able to be more efficient than us.

    Except the inevitable sex robots.
  • Private Eye have deleted this but I fucking LOL'd


  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,474
    Net +5% for the Chagos deal I see.
  • Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
    Spain senses our weakness. This is just one of the consequences of the Chagos Surrender, just one of the many reasons it was a catastrophic and unforced moral, military and political error
    Another Brexit dividend.

    If only somebody had flagged this up before the referendum, oh wait they did.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,344

    Can anyone actually name any wrong decisions *yet* Labour have made other than WFA cut that 1) Sunak and Hunt *wouldn't have done* and 2) are unpopular with the public?
    Because early release of prisoners, handing over sovereignty over the Chagos Islands etc. would have happened under Sunak anyway and coming to terms with the unions is broadly supported.

    £22 bn on carbon capture.
    1) Pretty crucial if we are serious about net zero (particularly industries who need natural gas and can't find an alternative)
    2) It's over 25 years
    3) Can't find much evidence of a public outcry outside the usual suspects (e.g partisan Tories, anti-woke grifters).
    Very poorly thought out, shows Labour in thrawl to big oil.

    Jumped within weeks of getting power, when there should have been far more consideration of our energy policy for the next 25 years.

    2/10
  • xyzxyzxyzxyzxyzxyz Posts: 49
    Encouraging the 20% of the working age population who are economically inactive by tightening sickness and unemployment benefits would reduce the need for immigration and reduce the deficit.

    Can U.K. jobs still be advertised abroad at 80% of U.K. rates?

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Rwanda is surprisingly close

    I thought the cancellation would be MORE popular. Shows the pressure on Starmer to stop the boats is still there, big time

    Yup, and as more people arrive and we get more days of 1000+ illegals and videos and Nige signal boosting it across the country that number will only get less favourable for Labour. Ending the Rwanda plan was only acceptable if another replacement policy was ready to replace it "smashing the people smuggler gangs" is just a laughable slogan yet that's what replaced Rwanda as both a deterrent and removals policy.
    We haven't even had one day with 1000+ people crossing yet. We did have close to 1000 one day, but numbers are down on average, and the government aren't banging on about the issue all the time. I think its saliency will drop.
    It will drop naturally from this point forward because of us getting into the stormy season. Labour will hope that they will be able to effectively use the breathing space to change the narrative - either through some effectove action to stop the crossings or through changing people's perceptions of the crossing. They have about 6 months to do this.

    If I were advising them I would suggest a number of things.

    1. Have an effective asylum system in place in France. Properly manned and located at the actual ports rather than in Paris. STart showingsome asylum seekers being granted asylum and let into the country doing it properly rather than risking the crossing.

    2. Reverse May's idiotic decision to include students in the net migration figures.

    3. Spend some serious time and money explaining how immigration is necessary and helps the country rather than pandering to the Reform/Tory vote. Change the narrative on immigration whilst exhibting proper control over the numbers (note this is very different to necessariy reducing net migration). Make it clear that those entering the country legally are doing it at the Country's invitation because we want them rather than making it seem like it is something over which we have no control.

    4. Do to the people smugglers what they did to the rioters. Heavy and hard. And advertise that fact just as they did with the rioters. Gross negligent manslaughter carries a maximum of life imprisonment so anyone driving a boat where people die is charged with that.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,135
    "‘I’m not sorry for what I do’: inside the people smuggling gangs in Calais

    The Times tracks down a Kurdish man allegedly behind deadly trips on the Channel. Known as ‘Red’, he boasts he can earn €50,000 a day"

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/im-not-sorry-for-what-i-do-inside-the-people-smuggling-gangs-in-calais-nnq6mqcz8
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,255
    The Chagos deal was a craven surrender.

    Though, to the US, mostly.

    That both Tories and Labour are complicit is simply depressing.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Andy_JS said:

    Canadian Tories are now averaging a lead of 20% in the opinion polls. Looks pretty unrecoverable for Trudeau.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_45th_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls

    The latest Pallas poll puts the lead at 22 points

    https://pallas-data.ca/2024/10/10/pallas-federal-poll-cpc-44-lpc-22-ndp-19-green-4/

    Fascinating to read the Conservatives lead by 30 among men but are only level pegging among women.

    In July here, men voted 23% Conservative and 17% Reform but women voted 26% Conservative and 12% Reform. I'm trying to recall if this gender disparity was showing in the pre-election polls.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,151
    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Canadian Tories are now averaging a lead of 20% in the opinion polls. Looks pretty unrecoverable for Trudeau.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_45th_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls

    Who would have guessed that progressivism in Canada would hit the buffers? It seemed invincible until very recently.
    Covid still playing out? Has there been a major western government that presided over Covid/lockdown and got re-elected in a subsequent election?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,983
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
    Spain senses our weakness. This is just one of the consequences of the Chagos Surrender, just one of the many reasons it was a catastrophic and unforced moral, military and political error
    Spain know a mug when they see one.

    They can read the news just as well as us, and they know he's a tool.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,983
    rcs1000 said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    London doesn't have to do it alone.
    The growth in Manchester over the past ten years jas been remarkable. Manchester is, if anything*, a younger city than London. It's hard, in Manchester, to recognise the story of national decline. Granted there is a lot of grot - but good grief it's a different city to 20 years ago. Which in turn was a very different city to 20 years before that.

    *figure pulled out of my arse but feels right.
    Yes, Manchester is a definitely on the up - largely because it offers all the amenities of London, with much of the opportunities, and at a fraction of the cost.

    (It's a shame the airport is so shit.)
    Weather is shit too. And parts of Manchester are edgier and more bleak.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,280

    Can anyone actually name any wrong decisions *yet* Labour have made other than WFA cut that 1) Sunak and Hunt *wouldn't have done* and 2) are unpopular with the public?
    Because early release of prisoners, handing over sovereignty over the Chagos Islands etc. would have happened under Sunak anyway and coming to terms with the unions is broadly supported.

    £22 bn on carbon capture.
    1) Pretty crucial if we are serious about net zero (particularly industries who need natural gas and can't find an alternative)
    2) It's over 25 years
    3) Can't find much evidence of a public outcry outside the usual suspects (e.g partisan Tories, anti-woke grifters).
    Very poorly thought out, shows Labour in thrawl to big oil.

    Jumped within weeks of getting power, when there should have been far more consideration of our energy policy for the next 25 years.

    2/10
    In thrall to big oil? I thought Labour was killing the North Sea according to PB Tories. Make your mind up.
    How are glass production companies, for instance, going to decarbonise without CCUS by the way?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,151

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
    Spain senses our weakness. This is just one of the consequences of the Chagos Surrender, just one of the many reasons it was a catastrophic and unforced moral, military and political error
    Spain know a mug when they see one.

    They can read the news just as well as us, and they know he's a tool.
    maker?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
    Spain senses our weakness. This is just one of the consequences of the Chagos Surrender, just one of the many reasons it was a catastrophic and unforced moral, military and political error
    I doubt Starmer will fold but you’re right, it does sense our weakness.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,317
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    London doesn't have to do it alone.
    The growth in Manchester over the past ten years jas been remarkable. Manchester is, if anything*, a younger city than London. It's hard, in Manchester, to recognise the story of national decline. Granted there is a lot of grot - but good grief it's a different city to 20 years ago. Which in turn was a very different city to 20 years before that.

    *figure pulled out of my arse but feels right.
    Birmingham is very similar; at one point recently it claimed to be the youngest city in Europe. It has everything and the potential is vast. Also housing is very cheap, you can buy a 1 bed flat in a nice area for £130k. People should quit London for Birmingham.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,488
    Taz said:

    In a choice between DP and its potential investment and the Transport Secretary Number 10 throws Louise Haigh under the bus.

    Still, she still has the engagement on social media to comfort her.

    https://x.com/itvjoel/status/1844766992424661364?s=61

    It seems like a PR tantum - they'll announce the investment in a month instead, at a guess.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,255
    darkage said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    London doesn't have to do it alone.
    The growth in Manchester over the past ten years jas been remarkable. Manchester is, if anything*, a younger city than London. It's hard, in Manchester, to recognise the story of national decline. Granted there is a lot of grot - but good grief it's a different city to 20 years ago. Which in turn was a very different city to 20 years before that.

    *figure pulled out of my arse but feels right.
    Birmingham is very similar; at one point recently it claimed to be the youngest city in Europe. It has everything and the potential is vast. Also housing is very cheap, you can buy a 1 bed flat in a nice area for £130k. People should quit London for Birmingham.
    Birmingham is probably the most dismal urban experience in the Western hemisphere.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,983
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
    Spain senses our weakness. This is just one of the consequences of the Chagos Surrender, just one of the many reasons it was a catastrophic and unforced moral, military and political error
    I doubt Starmer will fold but you’re right, it does sense our weakness.
    You doubt he will fold?

    Why would you have any doubt whatsoever?

    Starmer will say: you make a bloody good point, where do I sign, and then move on to the next surrender.

    I don't think there's any trench he'd fight in.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,474
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Canadian Tories are now averaging a lead of 20% in the opinion polls. Looks pretty unrecoverable for Trudeau.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_45th_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls

    The latest Pallas poll puts the lead at 22 points

    https://pallas-data.ca/2024/10/10/pallas-federal-poll-cpc-44-lpc-22-ndp-19-green-4/

    Fascinating to read the Conservatives lead by 30 among men but are only level pegging among women.

    In July here, men voted 23% Conservative and 17% Reform but women voted 26% Conservative and 12% Reform. I'm trying to recall if this gender disparity was showing in the pre-election polls.

    It's an increasing phenomenon. Women are much more liberal than men.

    South Korea has the biggest division I think.



    https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2f35-41bf-9d4c-994db4e12998
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662

    felix said:

    Forget the polls PB is such fun as the apologists led by chief moron Anabobazina are now begging posters to be nice. They should really be re-reading Animal Farm. Politics is a grubby business and as all good conservatives know the troughs tempt all the piggies with remarkable speed this time.

    It's funny to see posters who acted all moral at pointing out failures by the Conservative Party and its MPs, who are suddenly blind to issues now Labour is in government. Especially whilst they still decry the Conservatives.

    It sorta shows that it was not morality that drove their criticisms, but naked partisanship. (*)

    Fortunately, not every posted suffers from this affliction.

    (*) For some odd reason, I initially wrote that as parsnipship. Which opens up some intriguing possibilities. A ship made out of a parsnip? A ship carrying nothing but parsnips? The state of being a parsnip?
    Aren’t you the poster who gives a green-ish card to Johnson while continuing to castigate Keir for his curry?
    Was I giving a "green-ish card" to Johnson? I don't think so...

    I was certainly the poster who was castigating Johnson back as far as his time as MoL, and stating that he would not be a good PM. I also stated well before the election that Starmer would probably be better than Sunak, but would have problems because he is not a salesman.

    But currygate's interesting. One of my criticisms of Johnson was that he had a habit of not learning lessons: when he makes a mistake, he's either too stupid, too stubborn or too proud to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Currygate was a mistake from the optics POV at least; and Starmer's making similar mistakes again. And again.
    I think Starmer fucked up the optics here badly.

    But currygate really wasn’t interesting. It was a load of bollocks served up by alt-right journalists and the ever credulous BigG
    Were you here for RAFgate? That one was a proper zinger. I only learned of it the other day thanks to @TheScreamingEagles 's explanation. Wow. Just wow.
    Was that the same as torpedo gate?

    On one level, you have to salute BigG’s indefatigabilty.

    No wonder he was selected as special driver for Windsor Davies MP in 1948!
    Special driver for the late Wyn Roberts at elections, especially the Falklands one when we had many questions about the sinking of the Belgrano, and finally for David Jones in 2010 when in our campaign car Brown's 'bigotgate' came over live

    How we laughed
    Brown was right about Mrs Duffy –– she was/is a bigot. He should have stuck to his guns!
    Mrs Duffy was a long-standing Rochdale resident who had watched the town population change enormously over her later years. People like her need sympathy and major efforts towards re-education on both sides.
    Agree that there are reasons for her becoming bigoted. But a bigot she was.
    Whatever. It caused a lot of damage.tp McDoom and the Labour Party
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,151
    On Topic: Basically it seems people are already fed up with Labour but not yet ready to call time on them.

    But just three months into a new "change" government all the polling is absolutely appalling for Labour, honestly.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,255
    If you look back at Mrs Duffy’s actual comments, she seems like a veritable centrist dad compared with what you hear and read these days.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,255
    GIN1138 said:

    On Topic: Basically it seems people are already fed up with Labour but not yet ready to call time on them.

    But just three months into a new "change" government all the polling is absolutely appalling for Labour, honestly.

    Because they’ve not offered any change.

    Instead focusing on various not broke / don’t fix issues.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392
    John Gray in New Statesman says it has to be Kemi Badenoch.

    She is the only candidate he argues who understands what the conservatives need to do to take a "floundering" labour government which is a hotchpotch of State knows best technocracy and progressive legalists.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,135

    John Gray in New Statesman says it has to be Kemi Badenoch.

    She is the only candidate he argues who understands what the conservatives need to do to take a "floundering" labour government which is a hotchpotch of State knows best technocracy and progressive legalists.

    I trust his judgement.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    Strange how the pro-Conservative Standard somehow managed to omit the Liberal Democrat gain from the Conservatives in Ealing's Hanger Hill Ward:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-by-election-result-losing-tories-reform-greens-lib-dems-b1187301.html#comments-area
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,983

    If you look back at Mrs Duffy’s actual comments, she seems like a veritable centrist dad compared with what you hear and read these days.

    But the fact she was (and to some still is) seen as a Bigot speaks volumes about the prejudices of the Liberal-Left establishment.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,255

    John Gray in New Statesman says it has to be Kemi Badenoch.

    She is the only candidate he argues who understands what the conservatives need to do to take a "floundering" labour government which is a hotchpotch of State knows best technocracy and progressive legalists.

    He’s essentially correct.
    Though I doubt Badenoch has the bulwarks, frankly.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,488

    darkage said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    London doesn't have to do it alone.
    The growth in Manchester over the past ten years jas been remarkable. Manchester is, if anything*, a younger city than London. It's hard, in Manchester, to recognise the story of national decline. Granted there is a lot of grot - but good grief it's a different city to 20 years ago. Which in turn was a very different city to 20 years before that.

    *figure pulled out of my arse but feels right.
    Birmingham is very similar; at one point recently it claimed to be the youngest city in Europe. It has everything and the potential is vast. Also housing is very cheap, you can buy a 1 bed flat in a nice area for £130k. People should quit London for Birmingham.
    Birmingham is probably the most dismal urban experience in the Western hemisphere.
    I grew up in suburban Birmingham. Pleasant enough. The city centre wants another few decades of regeneration, though. People started moving back into the city centre in the 1990s with developments like Brindley Place, but it rather stalled.

    The £130k flats can be found even walking distance from HS2.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,135

    darkage said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    London doesn't have to do it alone.
    The growth in Manchester over the past ten years jas been remarkable. Manchester is, if anything*, a younger city than London. It's hard, in Manchester, to recognise the story of national decline. Granted there is a lot of grot - but good grief it's a different city to 20 years ago. Which in turn was a very different city to 20 years before that.

    *figure pulled out of my arse but feels right.
    Birmingham is very similar; at one point recently it claimed to be the youngest city in Europe. It has everything and the potential is vast. Also housing is very cheap, you can buy a 1 bed flat in a nice area for £130k. People should quit London for Birmingham.
    Birmingham is probably the most dismal urban experience in the Western hemisphere.
    It's my local big city. Been there twice in the last week, once for this concert.

    https://bmusic.co.uk/events/bc-2024-25-lviv-national-philharmonic-orchestra-of-ukraine
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,983
    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Canadian Tories are now averaging a lead of 20% in the opinion polls. Looks pretty unrecoverable for Trudeau.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_45th_Canadian_federal_election#National_polls

    The latest Pallas poll puts the lead at 22 points

    https://pallas-data.ca/2024/10/10/pallas-federal-poll-cpc-44-lpc-22-ndp-19-green-4/

    Fascinating to read the Conservatives lead by 30 among men but are only level pegging among women.

    In July here, men voted 23% Conservative and 17% Reform but women voted 26% Conservative and 12% Reform. I'm trying to recall if this gender disparity was showing in the pre-election polls.

    It's an increasing phenomenon. Women are much more liberal than men.

    South Korea has the biggest division I think.



    https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2f35-41bf-9d4c-994db4e12998
    They keeping banging on about white men being a problem, which pisses off white men and drives division, without doing anything to bring either closer together or solve any underlying issues.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,983
    GIN1138 said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Spain imposes surprise border checks on Gibraltar

    A huge queue formed at the border as the Rock’s government reciprocated, but both sides stopped inspecting passports within four hours"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/11/spain-imposes-surprise-border-checks-on-gibraltar/

    Starmer will fold to Spain, in full, in weeks.

    He might even surrender control of the airport.
    Spain senses our weakness. This is just one of the consequences of the Chagos Surrender, just one of the many reasons it was a catastrophic and unforced moral, military and political error
    Spain know a mug when they see one.

    They can read the news just as well as us, and they know he's a tool.
    maker?
    His description of his father is entirely accurate: he made tools.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,255
    carnforth said:

    darkage said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    If there is hope for the UK it is in London

    I’m walking through Camden Market. The youthful energy is insane. No other city - not even New York - matches it. Something unique in the air. Far more dynamic than any city in the EU

    London PULSATES. What is being hatched here in this crazy mash of energetic people from all over?

    It may yet save us

    London doesn't have to do it alone.
    The growth in Manchester over the past ten years jas been remarkable. Manchester is, if anything*, a younger city than London. It's hard, in Manchester, to recognise the story of national decline. Granted there is a lot of grot - but good grief it's a different city to 20 years ago. Which in turn was a very different city to 20 years before that.

    *figure pulled out of my arse but feels right.
    Birmingham is very similar; at one point recently it claimed to be the youngest city in Europe. It has everything and the potential is vast. Also housing is very cheap, you can buy a 1 bed flat in a nice area for £130k. People should quit London for Birmingham.
    Birmingham is probably the most dismal urban experience in the Western hemisphere.
    I grew up in suburban Birmingham. Pleasant enough. The city centre wants another few decades of regeneration, though. People started moving back into the city centre in the 1990s with developments like Brindley Place, but it rather stalled.

    The £130k flats can be found even walking distance from HS2.
    Like all second tier British cities, it suffers from a fatal lack of local autonomy and therefore investment.

    But even by British standards, it’s a bit shit.

    Not sure what the urban version of “rizz” is, but Birmingham doesn’t have much of it. Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool are all better.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,280
    GIN1138 said:

    On Topic: Basically it seems people are already fed up with Labour but not yet ready to call time on them.

    But just three months into a new "change" government all the polling is absolutely appalling for Labour, honestly.

    Tories weren't exactly popular 6 months in.
    https://cdn.yougov.com/today_uk_import/YG-Archives-Pol-ST-results-101210_0.pdf
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