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State of the Union – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,126
edited September 29 in General
imageState of the Union – politicalbetting.com

Welcome to the first in a strictly limited series. Every Monday [1] for the next 9 weeks, I’ll be doing a rundown of the forecasts from the main poll aggregators and analysts [2] for the 2024 US elections. Hopefully this will be useful as a baseline and a reference point for everyone.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • That's good stuff. I hope Princeton's mdel is better than its old state polling used to be. FWIW I'm with the Cook Report on this.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    Thanks for this James. It'll be an interesting series of snapshots on the race.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,707
    Latest comments still at the bottom?

    I see the Russian stock market is tanking again today. Not that I'm suggesting we can afford to relax. More a sign that we should keep our foot on the accelerator.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    Harris will win but Trump is favourite on the betting markets. Have I got this right?
  • algarkirk said:

    Harris will win but Trump is favourite on the betting markets. Have I got this right?

    Yah.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,789
    @jamesdoyle

    Dude! Nice article!
  • Many thanks James!

    Also big thanks @Andy_Cooke for his recent piece on FPTP at GE24.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392
    Looking forward to this Monday treat for next few weeks. Thanks @jamesdoyle
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,700
    Thanks for the header.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,595
    edited September 2

    Latest comments still at the bottom?

    I see the Russian stock market is tanking again today. Not that I'm suggesting we can afford to relax. More a sign that we should keep our foot on the accelerator.

    I can't imagine having a Moscow oil refinery blown up is doing much for confidence.

    These Ukrainian drones look like unsophisticated V1s except that they know where they are going. How on earth are they getting through Russian air defence (yes, I know there is a meme here)? Either there is some sophisticated radar mapping going on or they've run out of missiles.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392
    As for other polls to consider. I took a quick look at polling in final week or so of 2020 race and the predicted margin vs the actual result margin of 4.5%.

    The closest were IDP (investors thing) with 4% and Zogby and Axios/SurveyMonkey with 5%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    edited September 2
    So in summary it looks a closer election than 2020 in the US, when Biden beat Trump by 4.5% in the popular vote and won the EC by 306 to 232.

    Harris does seem to be doing better than Hillary Clinton did in 2016 in the EC though, when she got just 227 EC votes even if doing not much better in the popular vote than the 48.2% Hillary got. The Senate and House elections look close too
  • Are accurate election predictions luck or skill?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abmm85aqeWk

    Stand-up maths guy in a follow-up to his Count Binface count agent experience.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    edited September 2

    Are accurate election predictions luck or skill?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abmm85aqeWk

    Stand-up maths guy in a follow-up to his Count Binface count agent experience.

    Luck, mainly.
    (See, for example*, Nate Silver, 2008.)

    *And any successful predictions I have made.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,134
    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,134

    Are accurate election predictions luck or skill?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abmm85aqeWk

    Stand-up maths guy in a follow-up to his Count Binface count agent experience.

    Definitely not luck in my case. I predicted Lab 407, Con 127, LD 70 just before voting started at the general election, and that was thanks to being interested in election results for a long time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,344
    algarkirk said:

    Harris will win but Trump is favourite on the betting markets. Have I got this right?

    As my Granny used to say, down to "people with more money than sense..."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,226
    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but certainly there were some witnesses for the defence who could have been called who weren't at the trial
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    NOOM, ny friends, Montenegro has NOOM

    Not only did I nearly DIE this morning after being hurled from my canoe into the notoriously lethal class 834 “borovi” rapids of the world’s third deepest river canyon I have just this minute found THESE



    The Accursed Mountains are behind me and the stupefying Piva Gorge opens ahead, but right in front of me are these. The “stecci”, mysterious 13-15th century warrior tombs that no one quite understands, often engraved with pagan and pre-Christian symbols (swastikas, wheels, running deer) and placed in awesome noomy spots - like this - all of which says to some scholars the tradition of the stecci might actually stretch back to Eurasia’s megalithic past, to Stonehenge, Ggantija and even Gobekli Tepe

    Now, a beer
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,509
    Andy_JS said:

    Are accurate election predictions luck or skill?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abmm85aqeWk

    Stand-up maths guy in a follow-up to his Count Binface count agent experience.

    Definitely not luck in my case. I predicted Lab 407, Con 127, LD 70 just before voting started at the general election, and that was thanks to being interested in election results for a long time.
    That is one of the (profitable, thank you) exceptions to my "mainly".
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Latest comments still at the bottom?

    I see the Russian stock market is tanking again today. Not that I'm suggesting we can afford to relax. More a sign that we should keep our foot on the accelerator.

    I can't imagine having a Moscow oil refinery blown up is doing much for confidence.

    These Ukrainian drones look like unsophisticated V1s except that they know where they are going. How on earth are they getting through Russian air defence (yes, I know there is a meme here)? Either there is some sophisticated radar mapping going on or they've run out of missiles.
    The Russian air defence radar network under the Soviet Union was dense but unsophisticated. Especially against low flying.

    When Stealth tech came in, this reduced the radars with a detection range of 300 miles to a detection range of barely 20 miles. Which meant that instead of complete coverage, there were just small dots of coverage on a bi, big map.

    At that point the end of the Soviet Union came and there was no money to replace everything. So the old radars soldiered on, with less and less belief in their usefulness....

    The Russians still haven't really got a top end AWACS system going - especially in the look down area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev_A-50 has a very limited number of airframes. And serviceability is terrible.

    They did spend a lot on interceptors with look down capability - such as the Mig-31. But there are serviceability issues there and they've been using them, a lot, for lobbing missiles *at* Ukraine.

  • Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but I think the case has questions around it. I hope she is not innocent, in some ways. We have a terrible system in the UK regarding parole - essentially if you deny that you did the crime you were convicted of, you cannot be paroled, even if you are actually innocent.

    And as we know, an awful lot of wrongful convictions occur.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited September 2

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    The "vanity by election" was about an attempt by the government to bring in "indefinite detention without trial"

    Which would have been "indefinite detention of Muslims, without trial", given the prevailing terrorism threat of the day....

    But, hey, it must be good - all suspects are guilty. Obviously. Otherwise, they wouldn't be suspect!

    Just like the Forrest Gate chaps.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,112
    Continue to be fascinated that people are so confident about Harris winning.

    Seems as much of a toss up as last time to me, and the polls are closer than they were then, too....
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
  • Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    The "vanity by election" was about an attempt by the government to bring in "indefinite detention without trial"

    Which would have been "indefinite detention of Muslims, without trial", given the prevailing terrorism threat of the day....

    But, hey, it must be good - all suspects are guilty. Obviously. Otherwise, they wouldn't be suspect!

    Just like the Forrest Gate chaps.
    But what did his by election achieve?

    David Cameron gave him wide latitude on the Home Affairs brief and he could have achieved much but he chose to quit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    Andy_JS said:

    Are accurate election predictions luck or skill?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abmm85aqeWk

    Stand-up maths guy in a follow-up to his Count Binface count agent experience.

    Definitely not luck in my case. I predicted Lab 407, Con 127, LD 70 just before voting started at the general election, and that was thanks to being interested in election results for a long time.
    Chapeau. You are genuinely good at this. Far better than a lot of TV pundits and MSM prognosticators
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
    Why don't we just dispense with criminal trials in this country and let publications in New York pronounce on a British citizen's guilt or innocence? They clearly know more about this stuff than any of us, and it would save a fortune in court costs.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    The "vanity by election" was about an attempt by the government to bring in "indefinite detention without trial"

    Which would have been "indefinite detention of Muslims, without trial", given the prevailing terrorism threat of the day....

    But, hey, it must be good - all suspects are guilty. Obviously. Otherwise, they wouldn't be suspect!

    Just like the Forrest Gate chaps.
    But what did his by election achieve?

    David Cameron gave him wide latitude on the Home Affairs brief and he could have achieved much but he chose to quit.
    Killed any chance of it being tried again.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
    Why don't we just dispense with criminal trials in this country and let publications in New York pronounce on a British citizen's guilt or innocence? They clearly know more about this stuff than any of us, and it would save a fortune in court costs.
    They highlight all the issues that DD is raising now.

    Did you read the article?
  • Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but I think the case has questions around it. I hope she is not innocent, in some ways. We have a terrible system in the UK regarding parole - essentially if you deny that you did the crime you were convicted of, you cannot be paroled, even if you are actually innocent.

    And as we know, an awful lot of wrongful convictions occur.
    Apart from Priti P, have any of other Conservative leadership candidates given their views on the use of the noise?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    You should take your holidays in Ireland. It would reset your expectations on the weather, and make you thankful for Britain's drier climate.

    What I've found from living here is that my definition of what qualifies as wet weather has shifted. We had an enjoyable day out at Fota park a week ago. Perhaps half an inch of rain fell in the three or four hours we spent wandering around watching the big cats, giraffes, etc. It certainly wasn't dry, as such, but it wasn't so wet that it would keep you indoors.

    And today it's roasting. 19.1C and I'm melting it's so hot.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
    Why don't we just dispense with criminal trials in this country and let publications in New York pronounce on a British citizen's guilt or innocence? They clearly know more about this stuff than any of us, and it would save a fortune in court costs.
    Absolutely.

    Any idea of letting the Guilford 4, The Birmingham 7, Sally Clark etc out of prison is disgusting. In fact, let's hang them.

    All suspects are guilty. Otherwise they wouldn't be suspect.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    You should take your holidays in Ireland. It would reset your expectations on the weather, and make you thankful for Britain's drier climate.

    What I've found from living here is that my definition of what qualifies as wet weather has shifted. We had an enjoyable day out at Fota park a week ago. Perhaps half an inch of rain fell in the three or four hours we spent wandering around watching the big cats, giraffes, etc. It certainly wasn't dry, as such, but it wasn't so wet that it would keep you indoors.

    And today it's roasting. 19.1C and I'm melting it's so hot.
    The old truism about 'no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes'... And as I look out the window its raining again!
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
    Why don't we just dispense with criminal trials in this country and let publications in New York pronounce on a British citizen's guilt or innocence? They clearly know more about this stuff than any of us, and it would save a fortune in court costs.
    They highlight all the issues that DD is raising now.

    Did you read the article?
    Pity DD didn't put the same effort into this as he did for his Brexit prep.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
    Why don't we just dispense with criminal trials in this country and let publications in New York pronounce on a British citizen's guilt or innocence? They clearly know more about this stuff than any of us, and it would save a fortune in court costs.
    They highlight all the issues that DD is raising now.

    Did you read the article?
    Pity DD didn't put the same effort into this as he did for his Brexit prep.
    Did you read the article.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,570
    I had a few very nice dinners with a Democrat spokesperson this week. "It's going to be very close, but Kamala has more routes to victory than Trump, so that's a good thing at least" was my understanding of their position.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    You should take your holidays in Ireland. It would reset your expectations on the weather, and make you thankful for Britain's drier climate.

    What I've found from living here is that my definition of what qualifies as wet weather has shifted. We had an enjoyable day out at Fota park a week ago. Perhaps half an inch of rain fell in the three or four hours we spent wandering around watching the big cats, giraffes, etc. It certainly wasn't dry, as such, but it wasn't so wet that it would keep you indoors.

    And today it's roasting. 19.1C and I'm melting it's so hot.
    The old truism about 'no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes'... And as I look out the window its raining again!
    Summer clothes in Ireland is pairing your raincoat with shorts.
  • Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but I think the case has questions around it. I hope she is not innocent, in some ways. We have a terrible system in the UK regarding parole - essentially if you deny that you did the crime you were convicted of, you cannot be paroled, even if you are actually innocent.

    And as we know, an awful lot of wrongful convictions occur.
    Apart from Priti P, have any of other Conservative leadership candidates given their views on the use of the noise?
    Noose, dammit, noose.

    Blooming autocorrect.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

  • Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Exactly. Third time lucky. Free the Countess of Chester one.
  • TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
    Why don't we just dispense with criminal trials in this country and let publications in New York pronounce on a British citizen's guilt or innocence? They clearly know more about this stuff than any of us, and it would save a fortune in court costs.
    Absolutely.

    Any idea of letting the Guilford 4, The Birmingham 7, Sally Clark etc out of prison is disgusting. In fact, let's hang them.

    All suspects are guilty. Otherwise they wouldn't be suspect.
    Wasn't there a nudge & wink suggestion that either the Guildford 4 or Birmingham 7 were less innocent than the other lot? Trouble is I can't remember which way round it was or who said it.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,707
    Kemi making the case for an engineer as PM. Coming from an engineering family I can say there is a danger of appearing a bit aloof and asking why everyone can't see what is so obvious to the engineer.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

    The bad news is this August was actually not that bad - warmer than average and drier than average (though I suspect not sunnier, I’ll await the stats). That’s how shit our average climate is.

    It’s been best the further East you go. Like today. 24 degrees and sunny skies at my vineyard weather station in East Kent, 21 here in London.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    You should take your holidays in Ireland. It would reset your expectations on the weather, and make you thankful for Britain's drier climate.

    What I've found from living here is that my definition of what qualifies as wet weather has shifted. We had an enjoyable day out at Fota park a week ago. Perhaps half an inch of rain fell in the three or four hours we spent wandering around watching the big cats, giraffes, etc. It certainly wasn't dry, as such, but it wasn't so wet that it would keep you indoors.

    And today it's roasting. 19.1C and I'm melting it's so hot.
    The old truism about 'no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes'... And as I look out the window its raining again!
    It’s so dull here the solar powered pond fountain in the garden has stopped fountaining.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

    Anecdotally I cycle to work through local woods during the summer from May til September. Usually from June til October it is as dry as a bone, this year while drying a bit it had been very wet all summer..
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586

    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
    Why don't we just dispense with criminal trials in this country and let publications in New York pronounce on a British citizen's guilt or innocence? They clearly know more about this stuff than any of us, and it would save a fortune in court costs.
    Absolutely.

    Any idea of letting the Guilford 4, The Birmingham 7, Sally Clark etc out of prison is disgusting. In fact, let's hang them.

    All suspects are guilty. Otherwise they wouldn't be suspect.
    Wasn't there a nudge & wink suggestion that either the Guildford 4 or Birmingham 7 were less innocent than the other lot? Trouble is I can't remember which way round it was or who said it.
    The same thing that "they" say about Stephen Lawrence - "I've got a mate who was a copper. Not innocent at all, he says...."

    It's just in the case of Stephen Lawrence, it really shows what they are about.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Exactly. Third time lucky. Free the Countess of Chester one.
    What, you mean Catherine? :open_mouth:
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609

    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
    Why don't we just dispense with criminal trials in this country and let publications in New York pronounce on a British citizen's guilt or innocence? They clearly know more about this stuff than any of us, and it would save a fortune in court costs.
    Absolutely.

    Any idea of letting the Guilford 4, The Birmingham 7, Sally Clark etc out of prison is disgusting. In fact, let's hang them.

    All suspects are guilty. Otherwise they wouldn't be suspect.
    Wasn't there a nudge & wink suggestion that either the Guildford 4 or Birmingham 7 were less innocent than the other lot? Trouble is I can't remember which way round it was or who said it.
    The Guildford 4 were fewer innocents than the Birmingham 7, to be fair.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    TimS said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    You should take your holidays in Ireland. It would reset your expectations on the weather, and make you thankful for Britain's drier climate.

    What I've found from living here is that my definition of what qualifies as wet weather has shifted. We had an enjoyable day out at Fota park a week ago. Perhaps half an inch of rain fell in the three or four hours we spent wandering around watching the big cats, giraffes, etc. It certainly wasn't dry, as such, but it wasn't so wet that it would keep you indoors.

    And today it's roasting. 19.1C and I'm melting it's so hot.
    The old truism about 'no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes'... And as I look out the window its raining again!
    It’s so dull here the solar powered pond fountain in the garden has stopped fountaining.
    Its not the lack of sunlight, its the despair. Its just stopped trying.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    The spectre of the sub-postmasters convictions really ought to be on peoples minds, but sadly it seems not to be.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,668
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

    The bad news is this August was actually not that bad - warmer than average and drier than average (though I suspect not sunnier, I’ll await the stats). That’s how shit our average climate is.

    It’s been best the further East you go. Like today. 24 degrees and sunny skies at my vineyard weather station in East Kent, 21 here in London.
    Yes it will be warmer. But not sunnier in general. It will be greyer and wetter as we have experienced the last two years

    The AMOC (the Gulf Stream) is breaking down and - perhaps - the jet stream is veering south more often

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a46989602/amoc-collapse/
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    Kemi making the case for an engineer as PM. Coming from an engineering family I can say there is a danger of appearing a bit aloof and asking why everyone can't see what is so obvious to the engineer.

    Better an engineer than a lawyer!

    Looking back to the 1980s, better an engineer than a scientist, too.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

    The bad news is this August was actually not that bad - warmer than average and drier than average (though I suspect not sunnier, I’ll await the stats). That’s how shit our average climate is.

    It’s been best the further East you go. Like today. 24 degrees and sunny skies at my vineyard weather station in East Kent, 21 here in London.
    17C and central heating in Airedale.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,570

    mwadams said:

    I had a few very nice dinners with a Democrat spokesperson this week. "It's going to be very close, but Kamala has more routes to victory than Trump, so that's a good thing at least" was my understanding of their position.

    I think that's a fair assessment of the situation.

    Lots of posts here on the theme of "Trump is deranged, again. Kamala normal, so wins"

    The 45% behind Trump are voting for a fictional Trump. Their Saviour. They manage to turn any negative into a positive for him - convictions prove he is being persecuted etc. The actual real Trump is almost irrelevant in this, except by existing, to keep the self generated cult going.
    And, disappointingly, senior Republicans (I'm looking at the Bushes amongst others) have ceded the party to the cult and it's too late for them to speak up now.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,720
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

    The bad news is this August was actually not that bad - warmer than average and drier than average (though I suspect not sunnier, I’ll await the stats). That’s how shit our average climate is.

    It’s been best the further East you go. Like today. 24 degrees and sunny skies at my vineyard weather station in East Kent, 21 here in London.
    Yes it will be warmer. But not sunnier in general. It will be greyer and wetter as we have experienced the last two years

    The AMOC (the Gulf Stream) is breaking down and - perhaps - the jet stream is veering south more often

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a46989602/amoc-collapse/
    It’s actually getting sunnier too. UK annual average now around 1,450 hours compared with just over 1,300 in the early 20th century.

    But:

    1. The rise has been greater in winter than summer
    2. It’s still awful by international standards. Unutterably awful. Almost Aleutian levels of awfulness. Even down here in the South.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    I have not been following the Letby case too closely, but from what I have read, the really damning evidence is her diary and the notes found in her house.

    But they perhaps can be explained away. And she would make a very convenient scapegoat for systematic failures in a hospital. Who would want another Stafford case, if you can just blame one convenient nurse?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,314
    edited September 2
    Unsurprisingly, Danny Kruger has come out all guns blazing for Jenrick as leader, in a rather punchy article that, some may say, rather over-eggs Jenrick's track record. There's lots of gems in it, though my favourite, following a mere 14 years of Tory-led government, is:
    The UK has still not recovered from the global financial crisis or more generally from the effects of Labour’s last term of office.....
    Worth a read, I think if only for the giggles:
    https://conservativehome.com/2024/09/02/danny-kruger-only-jenrick-is-serious-about-the-challenges-facing-our-party-and-country/
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but certainly there were some witnesses for the defence who could have been called who weren't at the trial
    Interesting. So far I have seen nothing to indicate the convictions are not safe.

    You need to start with the 56 page court of appeal judgment, see if anything in that is properly open to precise criticism.

    You then have to guess why the defence didn't call its experts (see para 5), using the obvious explanation unless you have a better one.

    Then draft, in ordinary English, the precise (not vague or hand waving) ground or grounds which you argue render the convictions unsafe either because of fresh evidence (be precise), or that the evidence for the prosecution was in precise ways false, or failed to give scope for a jury to convict. Note there was corroboration of the evidence.

    Then ask and explain why the defence didn't use your grounds in their appeal.

    General and imprecise points about stats, rotas, other reasons for dying etc won't do.

    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392
    Leon said:

    NOOM, ny friends, Montenegro has NOOM

    Not only did I nearly DIE this morning after being hurled from my canoe into the notoriously lethal class 834 “borovi” rapids of the world’s third deepest river canyon I have just this minute found THESE



    The Accursed Mountains are behind me and the stupefying Piva Gorge opens ahead, but right in front of me are these. The “stecci”, mysterious 13-15th century warrior tombs that no one quite understands, often engraved with pagan and pre-Christian symbols (swastikas, wheels, running deer) and placed in awesome noomy spots - like this - all of which says to some scholars the tradition of the stecci might actually stretch back to Eurasia’s megalithic past, to Stonehenge, Ggantija and even Gobekli Tepe

    Now, a beer

    There's a bar there as well?

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

    The bad news is this August was actually not that bad - warmer than average and drier than average (though I suspect not sunnier, I’ll await the stats). That’s how shit our average climate is.

    It’s been best the further East you go. Like today. 24 degrees and sunny skies at my vineyard weather station in East Kent, 21 here in London.
    17C and central heating in Airedale.
    70% humidity here in the swamps of the Midlands.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    I have not been following the Letby case too closely, but from what I have read, the really damning evidence is her diary and the notes found in her house.

    But they perhaps can be explained away. And she would make a very convenient scapegoat for systematic failures in a hospital. Who would want another Stafford case, if you can just blame one convenient nurse?
    The jury heard her explanation - there is no such thing as evidence that cannot be explained, that's why we have trials - and very clearly rejected it. That's what juries are for.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited September 2

    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    I have not been following the Letby case too closely, but from what I have read, the really damning evidence is her diary and the notes found in her house.

    But they perhaps can be explained away. And she would make a very convenient scapegoat for systematic failures in a hospital. Who would want another Stafford case, if you can just blame one convenient nurse?
    I note that the New Yorker article doesn't appear to be available but plenty of articles say similar things, relating to the number and types of deaths in those units when she was and when she wasn't working there, the types of illnesses that were being treated, the staffing shortages which meant that people were called up to multiple shifts which made them a) present; and b) in demand.

    The diaries seem to be relating to guilt and self-hatred that I imagine might (might) come with presiding over, but not necessarily being responsible for an undoubtedly large number of infant deaths.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I was just planning to go swimming in a lake this evening. The water temperature should be more than fine with my wetsuit (in fact, perhaps a tad too warm), but then it started raining.

    "I'm not swimming in the rain!" I thought.

    Then I realised how utterly stoopid that was...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,583

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

    The bad news is this August was actually not that bad - warmer than average and drier than average (though I suspect not sunnier, I’ll await the stats). That’s how shit our average climate is.

    It’s been best the further East you go. Like today. 24 degrees and sunny skies at my vineyard weather station in East Kent, 21 here in London.
    17C and central heating in Airedale.
    I was thinking of this perennial debate earlier today as I drove to Widnes* under bracingly grim skies - a solid monotonous cover of deep grey. Quite imoressive in its way. But it was MUCH worse than it's been since before the summer holidays, which made me think what a good summer it's been in the North West.

    *I was going ice skating, if you must know. Followed by Nando's.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    I have not been following the Letby case too closely, but from what I have read, the really damning evidence is her diary and the notes found in her house.

    But they perhaps can be explained away. And she would make a very convenient scapegoat for systematic failures in a hospital. Who would want another Stafford case, if you can just blame one convenient nurse?
    The jury heard her explanation - there is no such thing as evidence that cannot be explained, that's why we have trials - and very clearly rejected it. That's what juries are for.
    Again, have you missed the ongoing and multiple cases of miscarriages of justice that this country has seen these recent months and years.

    Juries make decisions to the best of their abilities depending upon the evidence they are given. One party to the trial in this case was the NHS. Ponder that for a moment.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    I have not been following the Letby case too closely, but from what I have read, the really damning evidence is her diary and the notes found in her house.

    But they perhaps can be explained away. And she would make a very convenient scapegoat for systematic failures in a hospital. Who would want another Stafford case, if you can just blame one convenient nurse?
    If she is a scapegoat, not everyone was on board. For ages, the doctors said there's a problem and the managers refused to accept that Letby could be guilty. Perhaps the doctors were covering their backs, but the management certainly weren't doing that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,392

    mwadams said:

    I had a few very nice dinners with a Democrat spokesperson this week. "It's going to be very close, but Kamala has more routes to victory than Trump, so that's a good thing at least" was my understanding of their position.

    I think that's a fair assessment of the situation.

    Lots of posts here on the theme of "Trump is deranged, again. Kamala normal, so wins"

    The 45% behind Trump are voting for a fictional Trump. Their Saviour. They manage to turn any negative into a positive for him - convictions prove he is being persecuted etc. The actual real Trump is almost irrelevant in this, except by existing, to keep the self generated cult going.
    We no longer care about that 45%.

    Nor the 45% on the other side who are excited by a Harris presidency etc.

    It's the 10% who are undecided or persuadable that matter now.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    The spectre of the sub-postmasters convictions really ought to be on peoples minds, but sadly it seems not to be.
    This argument proves of course that miscarriages of justice occur. To move from that to 'Free the Letby One' is a large step. The point about the postmasters applies equally to every contested conviction there has ever been, including Ian Huntley, Ian Brady, Peter Sutcliffe et al. It applies neither more nor less to Letby until there is articulated clear grounds to found a further appeal. I have so far seen none; only generalised handwaving.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but certainly there were some witnesses for the defence who could have been called who weren't at the trial
    Interesting. So far I have seen nothing to indicate the convictions are not safe.

    You need to start with the 56 page court of appeal judgment, see if anything in that is properly open to precise criticism.

    You then have to guess why the defence didn't call its experts (see para 5), using the obvious explanation unless you have a better one.

    Then draft, in ordinary English, the precise (not vague or hand waving) ground or grounds which you argue render the convictions unsafe either because of fresh evidence (be precise), or that the evidence for the prosecution was in precise ways false, or failed to give scope for a jury to convict. Note there was corroboration of the evidence.

    Then ask and explain why the defence didn't use your grounds in their appeal.

    General and imprecise points about stats, rotas, other reasons for dying etc won't do.

    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf
    Have you ever worked at Womble Bond Dickinson by any chance?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    I have not been following the Letby case too closely, but from what I have read, the really damning evidence is her diary and the notes found in her house.

    But they perhaps can be explained away. And she would make a very convenient scapegoat for systematic failures in a hospital. Who would want another Stafford case, if you can just blame one convenient nurse?
    The jury heard her explanation - there is no such thing as evidence that cannot be explained, that's why we have trials - and very clearly rejected it. That's what juries are for.
    Again, have you missed the ongoing and multiple cases of miscarriages of justice that this country has seen these recent months and years.

    Juries make decisions to the best of their abilities depending upon the evidence they are given. One party to the trial in this case was the NHS. Ponder that for a moment.
    Yes there are miscarriages. This possibility applies in every contested case there has ever been. All I am saying is that I have not yet seen the precise grounds to suggest that this is one. I keep an open mind.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited September 2
    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    The spectre of the sub-postmasters convictions really ought to be on peoples minds, but sadly it seems not to be.
    This argument proves of course that miscarriages of justice occur. To move from that to 'Free the Letby One' is a large step. The point about the postmasters applies equally to every contested conviction there has ever been, including Ian Huntley, Ian Brady, Peter Sutcliffe et al. It applies neither more nor less to Letby until there is articulated clear grounds to found a further appeal. I have so far seen none; only generalised handwaving.
    Did you read the New Yorker article.

    Edit: here it is, the original seems no longer to be available.

    https://londonletter.substack.com/p/special-edition-the-lucy-letby-new
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,239

    TimS said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    You should take your holidays in Ireland. It would reset your expectations on the weather, and make you thankful for Britain's drier climate.

    What I've found from living here is that my definition of what qualifies as wet weather has shifted. We had an enjoyable day out at Fota park a week ago. Perhaps half an inch of rain fell in the three or four hours we spent wandering around watching the big cats, giraffes, etc. It certainly wasn't dry, as such, but it wasn't so wet that it would keep you indoors.

    And today it's roasting. 19.1C and I'm melting it's so hot.
    The old truism about 'no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes'... And as I look out the window its raining again!
    It’s so dull here the solar powered pond fountain in the garden has stopped fountaining.
    Its not the lack of sunlight, its the despair. Its just stopped trying.
    “It’s not the despair Laura. I can stand the despair. It’s the hope.”
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but certainly there were some witnesses for the defence who could have been called who weren't at the trial
    Interesting. So far I have seen nothing to indicate the convictions are not safe.

    You need to start with the 56 page court of appeal judgment, see if anything in that is properly open to precise criticism.

    You then have to guess why the defence didn't call its experts (see para 5), using the obvious explanation unless you have a better one.

    Then draft, in ordinary English, the precise (not vague or hand waving) ground or grounds which you argue render the convictions unsafe either because of fresh evidence (be precise), or that the evidence for the prosecution was in precise ways false, or failed to give scope for a jury to convict. Note there was corroboration of the evidence.

    Then ask and explain why the defence didn't use your grounds in their appeal.

    General and imprecise points about stats, rotas, other reasons for dying etc won't do.

    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf
    Have you ever worked at Womble Bond Dickinson by any chance?
    No, and your exact point in relation to the Letby trials is?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    The spectre of the sub-postmasters convictions really ought to be on peoples minds, but sadly it seems not to be.
    This argument proves of course that miscarriages of justice occur. To move from that to 'Free the Letby One' is a large step. The point about the postmasters applies equally to every contested conviction there has ever been, including Ian Huntley, Ian Brady, Peter Sutcliffe et al. It applies neither more nor less to Letby until there is articulated clear grounds to found a further appeal. I have so far seen none; only generalised handwaving.
    Did you read the New Yorker article.

    Edit: here it is, the original seems no longer to be available.

    https://londonletter.substack.com/p/special-edition-the-lucy-letby-new
    I'll have a look. Please, draft some precise grounds of appeal in ordinary English from its data.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited September 2
    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but certainly there were some witnesses for the defence who could have been called who weren't at the trial
    Interesting. So far I have seen nothing to indicate the convictions are not safe.

    You need to start with the 56 page court of appeal judgment, see if anything in that is properly open to precise criticism.

    You then have to guess why the defence didn't call its experts (see para 5), using the obvious explanation unless you have a better one.

    Then draft, in ordinary English, the precise (not vague or hand waving) ground or grounds which you argue render the convictions unsafe either because of fresh evidence (be precise), or that the evidence for the prosecution was in precise ways false, or failed to give scope for a jury to convict. Note there was corroboration of the evidence.

    Then ask and explain why the defence didn't use your grounds in their appeal.

    General and imprecise points about stats, rotas, other reasons for dying etc won't do.

    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf
    Have you ever worked at Womble Bond Dickinson by any chance?
    No, and your exact point in relation to the Letby trials is?
    Read the article. Then let's talk. I value your evidently informed view of it all.

    Edit: I mean there wasn't any evidence that she killed anyone but that doesn't seem to have mattered. Is that ever a factor in such trials? That there needs to be evidence for the crime. Perhaps not. Read the article and get back to me.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,134
    "March of the guys
    How did one honorific colonise our language?
    By Michael Duggan"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/march-of-the-guys/
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,657
    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Amazing that with so many recent and ongoing miscarriages of justice, including those relating to the NHS, that so many people once again are prepared to take at face value what seems to be a decision that has questions that probably should be answered.

    I suppose the @Stark_Dawnings of PB would have been applauding the sub-postmaster convictions.

    I have not been following the Letby case too closely, but from what I have read, the really damning evidence is her diary and the notes found in her house.

    But they perhaps can be explained away. And she would make a very convenient scapegoat for systematic failures in a hospital. Who would want another Stafford case, if you can just blame one convenient nurse?
    If she is a scapegoat, not everyone was on board. For ages, the doctors said there's a problem and the managers refused to accept that Letby could be guilty. Perhaps the doctors were covering their backs, but the management certainly weren't doing that.
    I was speaking to a friend over the weekend who recently did a stint working for the NHS. The stuff he was saying about the nepotism, incompetence and culture of fear amongst hospital management was astonishing. Quite possible to believe that they circled the wagons around Letby when others started raising concerns about one of their little angels.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,307
    Andy_JS said:

    "March of the guys
    How did one honorific colonise our language?
    By Michael Duggan"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/march-of-the-guys/

    Bro's got a point.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965
    Jezza formalising the Hamas grouping in parliament:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c24p2l11y12o
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,239
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but certainly there were some witnesses for the defence who could have been called who weren't at the trial
    Interesting. So far I have seen nothing to indicate the convictions are not safe.

    You need to start with the 56 page court of appeal judgment, see if anything in that is properly open to precise criticism.

    You then have to guess why the defence didn't call its experts (see para 5), using the obvious explanation unless you have a better one.

    Then draft, in ordinary English, the precise (not vague or hand waving) ground or grounds which you argue render the convictions unsafe either because of fresh evidence (be precise), or that the evidence for the prosecution was in precise ways false, or failed to give scope for a jury to convict. Note there was corroboration of the evidence.

    Then ask and explain why the defence didn't use your grounds in their appeal.

    General and imprecise points about stats, rotas, other reasons for dying etc won't do.

    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf
    The only explanation for why the defence didn’t call their own expert witness that I have seen that makes any sense is that they thought they had fatally undermined the credibility of the prosecution expert witness in court, so there was no need to call their own.

    As I understand things the prosecution expert witness cold approached the police in the first place & was involved in the building of the prosecution case before appearing on the stand as an expert witness. He also had previous history in the courts where an appeal judge described him as “tendentious and partisan”. Unfortunately for Letby’s defence, it turns out that, even if you convince a jury that a witness might be biased, if you don’t give them any alternative explanation for the facts of the case the jury may well decide that the only story they have been given is most probably the correct one.

    Having failed to call their expert witness in the original trial none of their expert evidence can be used at appeal, leaving any appeal dead in the water without any new evidence.

    In this interpretation the legal strategy decided on by her defence completely undermined whatever case they might have had & made it impossible to appeal afterwards.

    It does seem that, whatever else one might think of this case, the presentation to the jury of an “expert witness” as an independent third party bringing their neutral opinion to the court was completely at odds with reality & the wider context of the use of expert witnesses by the court in this fashion needs to be looked at.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

    The bad news is this August was actually not that bad - warmer than average and drier than average (though I suspect not sunnier, I’ll await the stats). That’s how shit our average climate is.

    It’s been best the further East you go. Like today. 24 degrees and sunny skies at my vineyard weather station in East Kent, 21 here in London.
    17C and central heating in Airedale.
    Thought you were a tougher bunch up north - stick another jumper on!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,307

    Jezza formalising the Hamas grouping in parliament:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c24p2l11y12o

    Why do you lump in anyone who has concern about Palestinians as Hamas?

    You’d lose your shit if I labelled every Israeli pro genocide for Israeli’s actions in the occupied territories ?
    Jezza and friends are not “anyone”.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I was just planning to go swimming in a lake this evening. The water temperature should be more than fine with my wetsuit (in fact, perhaps a tad too warm), but then it started raining.

    "I'm not swimming in the rain!" I thought.

    Then I realised how utterly stoopid that was...
    I quite like swimming in the sea in the rain - fewer people around mocking my inability to surf...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,069
    edited September 2
    "Good news Mel, the voters do want to hear from you..."

    a few participants absolutely loved his voice which they compared to David Attenborough and suggested he ought to have a career in Audio Books.

    https://www.moreincommon.org.uk/media/r4hodhtk/conservative-leadership-election-focus-groups-media-briefing-2-sept-2024.pdf
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,595
    edited September 2

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Second day of autumn, and we've got very autumnal weather. Grey, damp, chilly.

    We must have had under 10 days of actual summer weather this year.

    I blame the Labour government.

    I don't normally like to complain about the weather (or weather apps, as I know how they work). But back from another ghastly August week in Devon I've finally had enough. Last week was forecast to be largely sunny and dry. Yet in reality we had several days of grey skies and rain (and the apps were showing sunny skies at the time).

    In the words of a recent survivor of a life threatening existence - enough. Time to move the UK south by 500 miles. We have enough engineers on PB - there must be away?

    Or if not relocating the UK, lets roll back on our climate change mitigation. I keep being promised a warmer UK with a mediterranean climate - bring it on! Fire up the wood burners, tear down the wind farms and solar parks and burn that coal.

    Enough.
    I keep telling you all. I genuinely believe our climate has significantly worsened in the last few years and we now having something closer to anchorage Alaska or the Aleutian Islands

    Ie lots and lots of dreary cool greyness, all year, but the odd blasting week of hot hot hot. Except we won’t get the fun Alaskan snow

    It helps that I am typing this in balmy 26C on the Montenegrin plateau with a cold Niksicko beer
    I was mainly joking, but it does seem to have been a bit shit this year.

    In general we have terrible recall of weather from the past. I've been going on holiday to North Devon since I was born. My childhood memories are of sunny days on the beach, every day for a week. And yet that cannot be true (and asking my parents confirms it as not true). There was also the notorious bank holiday weather of 1986 - the Birmingham Superprix was on. We sat in the car at the beach and watched the rain lash down for hours.

    And yet this summer has been so dire that even I am downhearted...
    It hasn’t been “a bit shit” - the UK has just experienced its wettest 18 months on record and now it is likely heading into another wet autumn

    If you read weather geeks then quite a few are saying this is genuine climate change. Britain is shifting into a worse wetter greyer climate

    Paradoxically it will be warmer - or appear to be warmer - but that will come from milder but greyer winters and from greater warmth overnight due to more cloud cover

    We will get the worst of all worlds. Or, I should say, YOU will

    Probably the best place to live in Britain will be northern Scotland which might gain from more clear skies

    The bad news is this August was actually not that bad - warmer than average and drier than average (though I suspect not sunnier, I’ll await the stats). That’s how shit our average climate is.

    It’s been best the further East you go. Like today. 24 degrees and sunny skies at my vineyard weather station in East Kent, 21 here in London.
    17C and central heating in Airedale.
    Doors and windows open here in the Flatlands. 20C outside.

    There was <20mm rain last month and the second half of July was completely dry with no rain at all.

    No complaints from me (except when it was a bit too hot).


    Montenegro is one of the wettest countries in Europe, if not the wettest, BTW.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    DD guested on the Rest is Politics recently and did not come over well. Rather brittle and defensive.

    Do PBers listen to that prog btw? It's kind of a Centrist Dad heaven. You get the elegant (although slightly self-regarding and infused with class privilege) lilt of Rory Stewart interspersed with the pungent throb of Alastair Campbell, the both of them highly articulate, rational, animated by a deep dislike of populism. You listen to it for an hour or so and come away feeling calmer and more cheerful and grounded than when you started. Not many political podcasts do that but this one does.

    A quibble though. There's a nice mix of centre left and centre right sentiment but this doesn’t map across to objective neutrality on the parties. Stewart is not a partisan tory. He finds it easy to criticise them and to say positive things about Labour. Campbell otoh is the definition of tribal. He can’t say anything good about the Conservatives or bad about Labour (now it’s his sort of Labour again under SKS as opposed to the Corbyn version) without choking. This (imo) rather unbalances the show.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    DD guested on the Rest is Politics recently and did not come over well. Rather brittle and defensive.

    Do PBers listen to that prog btw? It's kind of a Centrist Dad heaven. You get the elegant (although slightly self-regarding and infused with class privilege) lilt of Rory Stewart interspersed with the pungent throb of Alastair Campbell, the both of them highly articulate, rational, animated by a deep dislike of populism. You listen to it for an hour or so and come away feeling calmer and more cheerful and grounded than when you started. Not many political podcasts do that but this one does.

    A quibble though. There's a nice mix of centre left and centre right sentiment but this doesn’t map across to objective neutrality on the parties. Stewart is not a partisan tory. He finds it easy to criticise them and to say positive things about Labour. Campbell otoh is the definition of tribal. He can’t say anything good about the Conservatives or bad about Labour (now it’s his sort of Labour again under SKS as opposed to the Corbyn version) without choking. This (imo) rather unbalances the show.
    I can't stand Campbell. He's a true, 100% shit who should be hiding his face away in anonymity somewhere. And Stewart should have remained in the party, rather than quitting.

    But yes, I do occasionally listen to RiP... ;)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,877
    TOPPING said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    He also thought Brexit would be sorted out in an afternoon and he also thought triggering a vanity by election was a good idea.

    Colour me sceptical.
    Very good edit: New Yorker, not New York Times article about it. But ofc we weren't at the trial and the only person who knows for sure is Lucy Letby.

    https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/new-yorker-lucy-letby-reporting-restrictions-contempt-of-court/
    That's a very helpful piece, as it fills in gaps in my knowledge.

    TL;DR: there's currently a gag order on Lucy Letby reporting because she is due to face trial again on one of the counts the original jury was hung on.

    I was confused why the New Yorker (and other magazines) were unable to report, and now I know.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,307
    kinabalu said:

    Do PBers listen to that prog btw? It's kind of a Centrist Dad heaven. You get the elegant (although slightly self-regarding and infused with class privilege) lilt of Rory Stewart interspersed with the pungent throb of Alastair Campbell, the both of them highly articulate, rational, animated by a deep dislike of populism.

    You've noticed his self-hatred too?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    TOPPING said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Former cabinet minister David Davis believes it’s ‘highly likely’ Lucy Letby is innocent"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/david-davis-lucy-letby-trial-innocent-conservatives-b2605544.html

    I wouldn't go that far but certainly there were some witnesses for the defence who could have been called who weren't at the trial
    Interesting. So far I have seen nothing to indicate the convictions are not safe.

    You need to start with the 56 page court of appeal judgment, see if anything in that is properly open to precise criticism.

    You then have to guess why the defence didn't call its experts (see para 5), using the obvious explanation unless you have a better one.

    Then draft, in ordinary English, the precise (not vague or hand waving) ground or grounds which you argue render the convictions unsafe either because of fresh evidence (be precise), or that the evidence for the prosecution was in precise ways false, or failed to give scope for a jury to convict. Note there was corroboration of the evidence.

    Then ask and explain why the defence didn't use your grounds in their appeal.

    General and imprecise points about stats, rotas, other reasons for dying etc won't do.

    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf
    Have you ever worked at Womble Bond Dickinson by any chance?
    No, and your exact point in relation to the Letby trials is?
    Read the article. Then let's talk. I value your evidently informed view of it all.

    Edit: I mean there wasn't any evidence that she killed anyone but that doesn't seem to have mattered. Is that ever a factor in such trials? That there needs to be evidence for the crime. Perhaps not. Read the article and get back to me.
    I have had a look at the New Yorker article, though I will need to look closer.

    Firstly, if there is no evidence that Letby killed someone, then she can't be convicted. I think you may mean there is no smoking gun or video of the events. There usually isn't. Evidence is often a series of threads of connecting evidence about time, place, opportunity, motive.

    The article. It's journalism. Thus far I cannot piece together, from this article, enough fragments to draft a short paragraph to describe why there are grounds to think the conviction is unsafe.

    Like Private Eye, it relies on an utterly desperate suggestion about the defence and why it called no expert evidence when it is known that they had expert reports:

    "Perhaps it had seemed that the prosecution's case was so weak that defence experts weren't necessary".

    I have a bridge to sell them if they believe any counsel, with a client who is going to get a whole life order on conviction, would fail to call scientific evidence that would help their case. (And do the same on the retrial).

    One small further point. I am keeping an open mind. The strongest case were the insulin cases, which were not the subject of the appeal specifically, unlike the embolism ones. I have not yey noticed even generalised hand waving about those. IIRC correctly it is not disputed by the defence that these babies were murdered. Worth keeping an eye on that element of the case.
This discussion has been closed.