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Northern Ireland [Westminster] Constituencies : Part One (Safe Seats) – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,854
edited June 24 in General
imageNorthern Ireland [Westminster] Constituencies : Part One (Safe Seats) – politicalbetting.com

With the Westminster General Election upcoming next month [July], We are all wondering which seats will be close and which constituencies are foregone conclusions.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 534
    First
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,900
    Second, and I look forward to part 2!
  • Options
    Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 328
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,516
    I believe Biden will win.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,261
    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,766
    Ta for that.
    First I've really heard about the election in NI.
  • Options
    bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 8,900
    dixiedean said:

    Ta for that.
    First I've really heard about the election in NI.

    Jeffrey Donaldson and his wife and due in court on the day before polling day. That’s not publicity the DUP wants!
  • Options
    spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,408
    I was thinking about this, in a roundabout way, there is a chance that the DUP could overtake the SNP on numbers of seats. if the SNP have a catastrophically bad night (a reverse of 2015) it could happen. to go from the third largest party to maybe the 5th or 6th (depending on Reform)
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,261
    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    Seriously. What is the plural for a kir Breton?

    My heads says Kirs Breton but my heart says that is somehow pretentious. I may need this essential lingo if the weather prevails this fine and I need lots of refreshment
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,658
    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
  • Options
    MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 853
    edited June 24
    FPT

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    I’d hate to intrude, but if ballot boxes don’t close till 10pm, that day can’t be over at 7.
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day. That is a matter of fact, not debate. BigG said twelve days, which is LauraK levels of innumeracy.
    If you say so though others may say so what - it is all rather silly a bit like having no cash
    Which the Tories will after this election.

    (he's retiring)

    As an aside. It is interesting how so many of the leading Tory Eurosceptics are Roman Catholic. Bill Cash, IDS, Moggster, Anne Widdicombe, Boris Johnson, Gove (allegedly), Sir Edward Leigh.
  • Options
    PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 534
    edited June 24
    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,139
    spudgfsh said:

    I was thinking about this, in a roundabout way, there is a chance that the DUP could overtake the SNP on numbers of seats. if the SNP have a catastrophically bad night (a reverse of 2015) it could happen. to go from the third largest party to maybe the 5th or 6th (depending on Reform)

    On current polling ranges and error margins potentially all the places from 2nd to 5th in seats are uncertain. The only thing not varying from poll to poll is 1st.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,139
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    Seriously. What is the plural for a kir Breton?

    My heads says Kirs Breton but my heart says that is somehow pretentious. I may need this essential lingo if the weather prevails this fine and I need lots of refreshment
    The French never have more than one Kir anyway, so it’s probably not come up before.
  • Options
    Is there an unwritten agreement between SF and SDLP that one won't stand in South Belfast and the other wont stand in Upper Bann?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,139

    First

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards of governments for decades to come?

    If it becomes the narrative going forward, I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    I think the root causes of the election result, the Tories’ collapse, as austerity, Brexit and Partygate. And I suspect the Conservative Party will conclude that the root cause is that they didn’t talk enough about immigration and tax cuts.
    And being in power during the highest inflation in decades. That one’s not their fault but we can see what it’s done to governments all around the world.
  • Options
    LloydBanksLloydBanks Posts: 30
    Would be kirs Bretons in French. In English I'd probably go for 'two Kir Breton' (like you sometimes hear 'Three Moretti')
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,457
    edited June 24
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    Seriously. What is the plural for a kir Breton?

    My heads says Kirs Breton but my heart says that is somehow pretentious. I may need this essential lingo if the weather prevails this fine and I need lots of refreshment
    Seriously? That's crème de cassis and cider, right?

    In which case the plural of a kir Breton ends up being 'a bucket of sick'.
  • Options
    GrandcanyonGrandcanyon Posts: 105

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,457
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    Seriously. What is the plural for a kir Breton?

    My heads says Kirs Breton but my heart says that is somehow pretentious. I may need this essential lingo if the weather prevails this fine and I need lots of refreshment
    The French never have more than one Kir anyway, so it’s probably not come up before.
    Two or three kirs Bretons with a few oysters and it's definitely coming up.
  • Options
    Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,333

    First

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards of governments for decades to come?

    If it becomes the narrative going forward, I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    That's a massive and crystallising factor, but I'm not sure it's as specific (or to put it another way, limited) to that.

    It's the drip-drip of that, PPE, Post Office (longer-running, but "when the music stops", etc), looking after the Patersons and Pinchers, Fisher Price Government with Liz and Kwasi, and (despite the narrative that he was doing the people's work at the time) some of the crowbars Boris employed to get Brexit done - there's a significant wing of his party's previous electorate who like Philip Hammond and aren't enamoured of proroguing parliament.

    That's why the current betting shenanigans are *so* damaging.. they may not be in the least bit illegal, but they stink like three-day old fish and add to the evidence file marked "in it for themselves and their mates rather than me".

    And for that drip-drip to have continued through the campaign is massively corrosive to the Tories' chance of recovery.

    On your concluding point.. yes, let's hope the message gets home.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,261

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
    One or two are perfect around 4pm on a hot afternoon, in my experience, the sweetness is perhaps akin to the desire for a scone and jam and cream at British teatime, never a bad thing - but I prefer the alcohol

    Brittany is seriously lovely, It may be my new favourite region of France, overtaking Languedoc and the Basque Country

    The only bits I have left to explore are parts of Normandy and the eastern fringe, tho I have been there a fair amount

    The roads are, as you say, astonishingly good. They actually have beautiful roundabouts. Who the fuck has beautiful roundabouts??? Not even Switzerland or the richest corners of the USA - Connecticut- SOCA - have beautiful roundabouts. I imagine some peculiar French college of roundabout design possibly in the Cevennes or near Amboise which has been going since Louis XI expressed a need for more lovely turnpikes in the 1530s, and which still prevails

    Indeed there is probably a French Guild of Roundabout Designers who elect a dozen Immortals every year but recently they are feeling threatened by South Korean motorway verge dudes so they are all going to vote Nazi
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,917
    Yay, @TheGreenMachine est arrive!
  • Options
    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,106

    First

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards of governments for decades to come?

    If it becomes the narrative going forward, I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    I think the root causes of the election result, the Tories’ collapse, as austerity, Brexit and Partygate. And I suspect the Conservative Party will conclude that the root cause is that they didn’t talk enough about immigration and tax cuts.
    In my leafy suburb of Birmingham, the biggest gripe is the perceived collapse of public services, especially the NHS. A common theme is how bloody difficult it is to get a doctor's appointment. This obviously has particularly resonance with older people, some of whom are planning on voting for someone other than the Conservatives for the first time in their life.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 61,084
    TimS said:

    First

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards of governments for decades to come?

    If it becomes the narrative going forward, I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    I think the root causes of the election result, the Tories’ collapse, as austerity, Brexit and Partygate. And I suspect the Conservative Party will conclude that the root cause is that they didn’t talk enough about immigration and tax cuts.
    And being in power during the highest inflation in decades. That one’s not their fault but we can see what it’s done to governments all around the world.
    As has Covid - by closing down the economy for 2 years at a cost of 450 billion plus

    The G7 photo of leaders had everyone in negative ratings

    And as for France!!!!
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088
    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    We’re you not moaning madly yesterday about how much hard work it all was? Enjoy it.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,592
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    Seriously. What is the plural for a kir Breton?

    My heads says Kirs Breton but my heart says that is somehow pretentious. I may need this essential lingo if the weather prevails this fine and I need lots of refreshment
    Isn't it the same audibly?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,261

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    Seriously. What is the plural for a kir Breton?

    My heads says Kirs Breton but my heart says that is somehow pretentious. I may need this essential lingo if the weather prevails this fine and I need lots of refreshment
    The French never have more than one Kir anyway, so it’s probably not come up before.
    Two or three kirs Bretons with a few oysters and it's definitely coming up.
    Ugh, no. Not with oysters

    I just had half a dozen fantastic Quiberons. Seriously good oystering

    I finished my gin and tonic with the first and moved on to lightly chilled Muscadet, is all good
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,592

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
    One or two are perfect around 4pm on a hot afternoon, in my experience, the sweetness is perhaps akin to the desire for a scone and jam and cream at British teatime, never a bad thing - but I prefer the alcohol

    Brittany is seriously lovely, It may be my new favourite region of France, overtaking Languedoc and the Basque Country

    The only bits I have left to explore are parts of Normandy and the eastern fringe, tho I have been there a fair amount

    The roads are, as you say, astonishingly good. They actually have beautiful roundabouts. Who the fuck has beautiful roundabouts??? Not even Switzerland or the richest corners of the USA - Connecticut- SOCA - have beautiful roundabouts. I imagine some peculiar French college of roundabout design possibly in the Cevennes or near Amboise which has been going since Louis XI expressed a need for more lovely turnpikes in the 1530s, and which still prevails

    Indeed there is probably a French Guild of Roundabout Designers who elect a dozen Immortals every year but recently they are feeling threatened by South Korean motorway verge dudes so they are all going to vote Nazi
    Beautiful roads, great railways. etc. That's what 45% GDP tax rates get you.

    I will get shouted down on here but I'd rather pay 45% GDP and have great infrastructure than 36% GDP and have the shite we have got in this country.
    The roads are visible. The freedom forgone is not.
  • Options
    Are these Tory people who put the bets on just incredibly thick?
  • Options
    GrandcanyonGrandcanyon Posts: 105
    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    If you think letting loved ones die alone is ok well its a view i suppose.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,457
    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    Indeed. Do they not have capitalisation of proper nouns in Russia?
  • Options
    Oh yay another Russian troll
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088

    Are these Tory people who put the bets on just incredibly thick?

    Probably not, but they were ignorant of the law, rules and chances of being discovered.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,332

    Are these Tory people who put the bets on just incredibly thick?

    Yes
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,457
    edited June 24
    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
    One or two are perfect around 4pm on a hot afternoon, in my experience, the sweetness is perhaps akin to the desire for a scone and jam and cream at British teatime, never a bad thing - but I prefer the alcohol

    Brittany is seriously lovely, It may be my new favourite region of France, overtaking Languedoc and the Basque Country

    The only bits I have left to explore are parts of Normandy and the eastern fringe, tho I have been there a fair amount

    The roads are, as you say, astonishingly good. They actually have beautiful roundabouts. Who the fuck has beautiful roundabouts??? Not even Switzerland or the richest corners of the USA - Connecticut- SOCA - have beautiful roundabouts. I imagine some peculiar French college of roundabout design possibly in the Cevennes or near Amboise which has been going since Louis XI expressed a need for more lovely turnpikes in the 1530s, and which still prevails

    Indeed there is probably a French Guild of Roundabout Designers who elect a dozen Immortals every year but recently they are feeling threatened by South Korean motorway verge dudes so they are all going to vote Nazi
    Beautiful roads, great railways. etc. That's what 45% GDP tax rates get you.

    I will get shouted down on here but I'd rather pay 45% GDP and have great infrastructure than 36% GDP and have the shite we have got in this country.
    The roads are visible. The freedom forgone is not.
    Ah yes, the freedom to replace your own tyres after hitting a pothole. Who would give up that fundamental human right, eh?
  • Options

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    That is fair comment, although in my experience of people whos relatives died alone was overwhelming fury at Johnson and the Tories for Unbritish Behaviour (not obeying the law).
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088

    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    If you think letting loved ones die alone is ok well its a view i suppose.
    It was a serious misjudgement, I think, but one made for honest reasons. People are angry about partygate, not because they are ashamed, but because they are proud of doing their bit, when others, who manifestly should have done better, did not.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,261

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    We’re you not moaning madly yesterday about how much hard work it all was? Enjoy it.
    I wasn’t moaning MADLY i was mildly bleating that it is harder work than it looks. It ain’t a holiday, they very often impose insanely punishing itineraries that you have to fight, eg tomorrow I am up at 6am so I can get to Belle Ile by 8 and see as much of it as possible in two days, because the locals want to show me the best of the island, food wine and cote sauvage

    Yes that sounds great but jeez it can be exhausting, also you have to be nice to EVERYONE and meet lots of guides and tourist people and restaurateurs and hoteliers and express a sincere interest in EVERYTHING. It helps that I am an enthusiast by nature

    And does anyone at home understand how hard it is having to do loads of amazing things and eat amazing food in amazing places for free? No they do NOT
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 33,457

    Are these Tory people who put the bets on just incredibly thick?

    Tautological question?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088

    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    Indeed. Do they not have capitalisation of proper nouns in Russia?
    Remember - not Russian, but likely Nigerian or elsewhere in Africa.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,592

    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
    One or two are perfect around 4pm on a hot afternoon, in my experience, the sweetness is perhaps akin to the desire for a scone and jam and cream at British teatime, never a bad thing - but I prefer the alcohol

    Brittany is seriously lovely, It may be my new favourite region of France, overtaking Languedoc and the Basque Country

    The only bits I have left to explore are parts of Normandy and the eastern fringe, tho I have been there a fair amount

    The roads are, as you say, astonishingly good. They actually have beautiful roundabouts. Who the fuck has beautiful roundabouts??? Not even Switzerland or the richest corners of the USA - Connecticut- SOCA - have beautiful roundabouts. I imagine some peculiar French college of roundabout design possibly in the Cevennes or near Amboise which has been going since Louis XI expressed a need for more lovely turnpikes in the 1530s, and which still prevails

    Indeed there is probably a French Guild of Roundabout Designers who elect a dozen Immortals every year but recently they are feeling threatened by South Korean motorway verge dudes so they are all going to vote Nazi
    Beautiful roads, great railways. etc. That's what 45% GDP tax rates get you.

    I will get shouted down on here but I'd rather pay 45% GDP and have great infrastructure than 36% GDP and have the shite we have got in this country.
    The roads are visible. The freedom forgone is not.
    Ah yes, the freedom to replace your own tyres after hitting a pothole. Who would give up that fundamental human right, eh?
    I'll take that over living like The Stepford Wives.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,128

    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    If you think letting loved ones die alone is ok well its a view i suppose.
    The real crime against humanity is letting you, from whatever God forsaken corner of the Earth you’re typing this from, loose on this board. You’re about as convincingly British as Dick van Dyke wearing a lederhosen.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,564

    First

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards of governments for decades to come?

    If it becomes the narrative going forward, I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    I think the root causes of the election result, the Tories’ collapse, as austerity, Brexit and Partygate. And I suspect the Conservative Party will conclude that the root cause is that they didn’t talk enough about immigration and tax cuts.
    That analysis will both appeal to the party membership and can be easily evidenced (in their minds, anyway) by looking at the size of the Reform vote.

    The fact that, the further they march rightwards, the more of their small-c conservative vote may defect to the Lib Dems in disgust, will be conveniently ignored.

    It seems to me that the chance of a hard right Tory rump achieving a revival depends crucially on Labour being as useless in Government as the Tories, and a populist leader then successfully knocking down the Red Wall for a second time. If everything goes right for them, a nasty hard right insurgency could become a really serious problem for the country. Alternatively, they could simply be shoved out of the way by the Liberal Democrats and permanently marginalised.

    How the Liberal Democrats as a party reconcile their own members' leftward leanings with having dozens of new MPs representing leafy shire constituencies will also be very important in all of this. There's currently a vacancy for a pragmatic, soft centre-right party that is receptive to appeals to help the vulnerable and rejects cruelty, but also dislikes anything that smells of socialism. Is Sir Ed ready to apply?
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    We’re you not moaning madly yesterday about how much hard work it all was? Enjoy it.
    I wasn’t moaning MADLY i was mildly bleating that it is harder work than it looks. It ain’t a holiday, they very often impose insanely punishing itineraries that you have to fight, eg tomorrow I am up at 6am so I can get to Belle Ile by 8 and see as much of it as possible in two days, because the locals want to show me the best of the island, food wine and cote sauvage

    Yes that sounds great but jeez it can be exhausting, also you have to be nice to EVERYONE and meet lots of guides and tourist people and restaurateurs and hoteliers and express a sincere interest in EVERYTHING. It helps that I am an enthusiast by nature

    And does anyone at home understand how hard it is having to do loads of amazing things and eat amazing food in amazing places for free? No they do NOT
    That’s a lot of words to say ‘no’.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,832

    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    Indeed. Do they not have capitalisation of proper nouns in Russia?
    Remember - not Russian, but likely Nigerian or elsewhere in Africa.
    They even outsource their trolling.

    #RussianJobsForRussianTrolls
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,516

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    We’re you not moaning madly yesterday about how much hard work it all was? Enjoy it.
    I wasn’t moaning MADLY i was mildly bleating that it is harder work than it looks. It ain’t a holiday, they very often impose insanely punishing itineraries that you have to fight, eg tomorrow I am up at 6am so I can get to Belle Ile by 8 and see as much of it as possible in two days, because the locals want to show me the best of the island, food wine and cote sauvage

    Yes that sounds great but jeez it can be exhausting, also you have to be nice to EVERYONE and meet lots of guides and tourist people and restaurateurs and hoteliers and express a sincere interest in EVERYTHING. It helps that I am an enthusiast by nature

    And does anyone at home understand how hard it is having to do loads of amazing things and eat amazing food in amazing places for free? No they do NOT
    Vanilla purge
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,486

    FPT

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    I’d hate to intrude, but if ballot boxes don’t close till 10pm, that day can’t be over at 7.
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day. That is a matter of fact, not debate. BigG said twelve days, which is LauraK levels of innumeracy.
    If you say so though others may say so what - it is all rather silly a bit like having no cash
    Which the Tories will after this election.

    (he's retiring)

    As an aside. It is interesting how so many of the leading Tory Eurosceptics are Roman Catholic. Bill Cash, IDS, Moggster, Anne Widdicombe, Boris Johnson, Gove (allegedly), Sir Edward Leigh.
    Whereas back in 1975 some of us campaigning for a Yes vote came across Nonconformists who were worried about being associated with the Treaty of Rome!
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,058
    edited June 24
    TimS said:

    First

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards of governments for decades to come?

    If it becomes the narrative going forward, I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    I think the root causes of the election result, the Tories’ collapse, as austerity, Brexit and Partygate. And I suspect the Conservative Party will conclude that the root cause is that they didn’t talk enough about immigration and tax cuts.
    And being in power during the highest inflation in decades. That one’s not their fault but we can see what it’s done to governments all around the world.
    This is (tragically) a big factor helping Trump's chances.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,261

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
    One or two are perfect around 4pm on a hot afternoon, in my experience, the sweetness is perhaps akin to the desire for a scone and jam and cream at British teatime, never a bad thing - but I prefer the alcohol

    Brittany is seriously lovely, It may be my new favourite region of France, overtaking Languedoc and the Basque Country

    The only bits I have left to explore are parts of Normandy and the eastern fringe, tho I have been there a fair amount

    The roads are, as you say, astonishingly good. They actually have beautiful roundabouts. Who the fuck has beautiful roundabouts??? Not even Switzerland or the richest corners of the USA - Connecticut- SOCA - have beautiful roundabouts. I imagine some peculiar French college of roundabout design possibly in the Cevennes or near Amboise which has been going since Louis XI expressed a need for more lovely turnpikes in the 1530s, and which still prevails

    Indeed there is probably a French Guild of Roundabout Designers who elect a dozen Immortals every year but recently they are feeling threatened by South Korean motorway verge dudes so they are all going to vote Nazi
    Beautiful roads, great railways. etc. That's what 45% GDP tax rates get you.

    I will get shouted down on here but I'd rather pay 45% GDP and have great infrastructure than 36% GDP and have the shite we have got in this country.
    I am tempted to agree. Given that Britain is now close to France on tax rates I would like us to have beautiful French towns, roads and railways and hospitals. Just do it

    Honestly, if that is Skyr Toolmakersson’s intention with his 900 majority, just get on and do it. And I will cope. Sadly I fear we are going to end up with EU tax rates and US public services, and oodles and oodles of Woke
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,766

    First

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards of governments for decades to come?

    If it becomes the narrative going forward, I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    I think the root causes of the election result, the Tories’ collapse, as austerity, Brexit and Partygate. And I suspect the Conservative Party will conclude that the root cause is that they didn’t talk enough about immigration and tax cuts.
    And the cost of living.
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,081

    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    Indeed. Do they not have capitalisation of proper nouns in Russia?
    They do, but almost all other languages don't capitalise the adjectives derived from them (including Russian). COVID is apparently lowercase in Russian.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,592

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    Wrongly, in the main: we are just measuring it better. But the government has such shit comms no one knows that.
  • Options

    Are these Tory people who put the bets on just incredibly thick?

    Both stupid (as in thick) and got the ethics of a backstreet second hand car salesman.

    If it would obviously look bad if the Newspapers knew you had done it, then you don't do it even if it is legal.

    If you have the ethics of an alleycat but are not stupid, then you don't do it unless it makes you so much money you don't care if you get caught a d have to resign (which is very unlikely to be the case here).



  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,907

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    And yet the 'sewage stuff' might all just be data measurement issues...
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,832

    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    Indeed. Do they not have capitalisation of proper nouns in Russia?
    They do, but almost all other languages don't capitalise the adjectives derived from them (including Russian). COVID is apparently lowercase in Russian.
    Its actually only the C that most style guides in English say should be capitalised.

    Thus making Covid a proper noun essentially in its own right.
  • Options
    MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 853
    edited June 24

    FPT

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    I’d hate to intrude, but if ballot boxes don’t close till 10pm, that day can’t be over at 7.
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day. That is a matter of fact, not debate. BigG said twelve days, which is LauraK levels of innumeracy.
    If you say so though others may say so what - it is all rather silly a bit like having no cash
    Which the Tories will after this election.

    (he's retiring)

    As an aside. It is interesting how so many of the leading Tory Eurosceptics are Roman Catholic. Bill Cash, IDS, Moggster, Anne Widdicombe, Boris Johnson, Gove (allegedly), Sir Edward Leigh.
    Whereas back in 1975 some of us campaigning for a Yes vote came across Nonconformists who were worried about being associated with the Treaty of Rome!
    Its a funny old world.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,128
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
    One or two are perfect around 4pm on a hot afternoon, in my experience, the sweetness is perhaps akin to the desire for a scone and jam and cream at British teatime, never a bad thing - but I prefer the alcohol

    Brittany is seriously lovely, It may be my new favourite region of France, overtaking Languedoc and the Basque Country

    The only bits I have left to explore are parts of Normandy and the eastern fringe, tho I have been there a fair amount

    The roads are, as you say, astonishingly good. They actually have beautiful roundabouts. Who the fuck has beautiful roundabouts??? Not even Switzerland or the richest corners of the USA - Connecticut- SOCA - have beautiful roundabouts. I imagine some peculiar French college of roundabout design possibly in the Cevennes or near Amboise which has been going since Louis XI expressed a need for more lovely turnpikes in the 1530s, and which still prevails

    Indeed there is probably a French Guild of Roundabout Designers who elect a dozen Immortals every year but recently they are feeling threatened by South Korean motorway verge dudes so they are all going to vote Nazi
    Beautiful roads, great railways. etc. That's what 45% GDP tax rates get you.

    I will get shouted down on here but I'd rather pay 45% GDP and have great infrastructure than 36% GDP and have the shite we have got in this country.
    I am tempted to agree. Given that Britain is now close to France on tax rates I would like us to have beautiful French towns, roads and railways and hospitals. Just do it

    Honestly, if that is Skyr Toolmakersson’s intention with his 900 majority, just get on and do it. And I will cope. Sadly I fear we are going to end up with EU tax rates and US public services, and oodles and oodles of Woke
    A lot of things work better in the States. New Haven, CT, City Hall picked up the phone after 4 rings when my wife called about her absentee ballot for November. We have never been able to get anyone at the Ashford Borough Council “Helpline” to actually answer. And no postal ballot for our election has arrived yet either,
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 12,233

    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    Indeed. Do they not have capitalisation of proper nouns in Russia?
    Remember - not Russian, but likely Nigerian or elsewhere in Africa.
    A Guyman or a Mugu ?

    That would be the question.
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,516
    carnforth said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    Wrongly, in the main: we are just measuring it better. But the government has such shit comms no one knows that.
    No, I don’t think that’s true. People were genuinely proud of the clean up of the rivers and beaches through the 70s and 80s and into the 90s. But between agricultural pollution and developments not being adequately served through investment from water companies alot of the progress has been undone. Tories who invariably refer to regulation as unnecessary red tape have been found out, Especially after promising Brexit would result in enhanced standards, something that was always a risible claim.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 19,832

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    Bear in mind my daughter was five at the time, and I think you may want to reconsider your answer. In 1 day from 8am on a day it will then be 8am on the next day. Tomorrow.

    A flat floor is not a flight of stairs with 1 step.
    1 day from 8am is 8am tomorrow, if we're going full 24 hour units, but today is a day which hasn't happened yet then too so if we're counting discrete days and not hours, then today ought to be counted.

    So if we are going off discrete days the question becomes whether you round up, or round down, essentially.

    Many years ago I worked in a business which very strictly operated on this principle for dating products. If a product was dated 8 days from now, then that would be a week today. Why? Because today always has to be counted was the rule. If it was dating products for 2 days, that would be today and tomorrow. If something was dated 1 day then that means by close of business today.

    All day today and then all day tomorrow ≠ 1 day.
    The context was the statement, "12 days until PM Starmer."

    You may have whatever strange definitions you want for other contexts, but in that context, we are effectively counting the gaps between days, because we are counting a duration of time from one point, "now" to a specific point, "then", which will be some time relatively early on July 5th - not until the end of July 5th.
    Today is a day.

    Tomorrow is a day.

    Today and tomorrow is two days.

    The election is on day eleven, but the results come out overnight and in day 12 we will have PM Starmer.

    If you want to count the gaps, then you can count the nights. 11 more nights. But like with a holiday you can get 5 days but 4 nights.
    Really?

    How many days until PM Starmer?

    What is your answer?
    Since its now 8pm I'll say 11.

    If you'd asked at 8am I'd say 12.

    I'm looking at booking my holiday for next year, we're looking at booking a 5 day, 4 night break. I'd be pissed off if I only got 4 days there.
    Yes. Those are two different contexts for use of the word day, as I explained earlier. This isn't unusual for English, why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    If we assume the PM switch happens at 11am on July 5th then it's just over ten and a half days until PM Starmer, though typically people would say 11 days whatever time that question was asked today.

    Thinking more about this, I think the old-fashioned way of saying something like this would be, "It's eleven days until the day we expect Starmer becomes PM."

    But anyway, this is exactly analogous to counting steps on a flight of stairs, and surely you don't count a single step as two?
    You're right I don't count any step as 2, I count each as 1 - but you don't discount any either.

    Just as I'd say my house has 2 stories in it, the ground floor and the top floor. You don't discount any either.

    Looking at the days between now and when Starmer comes in, the total is 12.

    1: Today
    2: Tomorrrow
    3: 26th
    4: 27th
    5: 28th
    6: 29th
    7: 30th
    8: 1st July
    9: 2nd
    10: 3rd
    11: 4th
    12: 5th

    No double counting necessary, just single counting each day. Only way you get to less than 12 is by discounting either today or the 5th or both.
    It's already today. So on one day it is tomorrow. That's why you count one day less in this context.

    In your house you move one floor up to get from the ground floor to the upper floor. Not two.

    We are counting the time between two days, not counting the days themselves. Do you not see?
    No, we are not. You are, but that wasn't the original quote. The original quote was "over the next 12 days".

    Over a period of time includes today. If I say on Monday morning in a meeting that over the next five days we have to get x, y and z done - then it has to be done by Friday, not a week on Monday.

    Today is day one of the next 12 days. Tomorrow is day two. We aren't talking steps, we're counting all the time - at the time the quote was made there were still polls to come out today, as well as polls to come out tomorrow and ultimately the actual poll that counts on day 12.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,658
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
    One or two are perfect around 4pm on a hot afternoon, in my experience, the sweetness is perhaps akin to the desire for a scone and jam and cream at British teatime, never a bad thing - but I prefer the alcohol

    Brittany is seriously lovely, It may be my new favourite region of France, overtaking Languedoc and the Basque Country

    The only bits I have left to explore are parts of Normandy and the eastern fringe, tho I have been there a fair amount

    The roads are, as you say, astonishingly good. They actually have beautiful roundabouts. Who the fuck has beautiful roundabouts??? Not even Switzerland or the richest corners of the USA - Connecticut- SOCA - have beautiful roundabouts. I imagine some peculiar French college of roundabout design possibly in the Cevennes or near Amboise which has been going since Louis XI expressed a need for more lovely turnpikes in the 1530s, and which still prevails

    Indeed there is probably a French Guild of Roundabout Designers who elect a dozen Immortals every year but recently they are feeling threatened by South Korean motorway verge dudes so they are all going to vote Nazi
    Ha! The roundabouts are indeed perfect. I do think they take their obsession with presentation to extremes (which is why they get mocked for it). But on the other hand, it makes the country what it is.
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,516
    edited June 24

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    And yet the 'sewage stuff' might all just be data measurement issues...
    I don’t think so. Number of recorded events suggest otherwise.

    The Rivers Trust says: However, even taking this into consideration, there’s no denying that 2023 was worse than 2021 for sewage spills. For England alone, last year was the worst on record for sewage spills – untreated sewage was discharged for over double the total number of hours than 2022, and over 163,000 more discharges counted.
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,205
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    Seriously. What is the plural for a kir Breton?

    My heads says Kirs Breton but my heart says that is somehow pretentious. I may need this essential lingo if the weather prevails this fine and I need lots of refreshment
    Kirou Brezhoneg, obvs.
  • Options
    carnforth said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    Wrongly, in the main: we are just measuring it better. But the government has such shit comms no one knows that.
    They would complaining ten times as much if water bills were increased enough to stop it. Even the Thames Water Crossrail Tribute tunnel will only reduce storm discharge of turds etc. just reduce them.

    It is a bit Cnuttish in a literal sense.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,941
    The prison population in the UK is expected to rise to 115000 , from 85000 at present.
    The cost of one year of incarceration is £50,000 per year. So as far as I can work out the cost of this rise would be £1.5 billion per year.
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,592
    edited June 24

    carnforth said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    Wrongly, in the main: we are just measuring it better. But the government has such shit comms no one knows that.
    No, I don’t think that’s true. People were genuinely proud of the clean up of the rivers and beaches through the 70s and 80s and into the 90s. But between agricultural pollution and developments not being adequately served through investment from water companies alot of the progress has been undone. Tories who invariably refer to regulation as unnecessary red tape have been found out, Especially after promising Brexit would result in enhanced standards, something that was always a risible claim.


    E.g e-coli from water sources continues its decline

    Swimming now is vastly safer than when we were children, and I was a child in the 90s.
  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,113

    Is there an unwritten agreement between SF and SDLP that one won't stand in South Belfast and the other wont stand in Upper Bann?

    SDLP are contesting all 18 seats, AFAIK.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    And yet the 'sewage stuff' might all just be data measurement issues...
    I think it’s got worse recently but also we only know it’s got worse because they are forced to measure and report it. I simply cannot square the dead rivers of the 1970s being somehow cleaner than those of 2024, albeit there are specific issues in some places. Many rivers 50 years ago were essentially dead, now salmon and trout have returned all over the land.
  • Options
    darkage said:

    The prison population in the UK is expected to rise to 115000 , from 85000 at present.
    The cost of one year of incarceration is £50,000 per year. So as far as I can work out the cost of this rise would be £1.5 billion per year.

    So bringing back the death penallty for things like walking on the cracks on the pavement would save the exchequer a fortune?
  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,113

    First

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards of governments for decades to come?

    If it becomes the narrative going forward, I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    I think the root causes of the election result, the Tories’ collapse, as austerity, Brexit and Partygate. And I suspect the Conservative Party will conclude that the root cause is that they didn’t talk enough about immigration and tax cuts.
    What austerity? They have hosed money at voters - look at the size of the National Debt.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    Bear in mind my daughter was five at the time, and I think you may want to reconsider your answer. In 1 day from 8am on a day it will then be 8am on the next day. Tomorrow.

    A flat floor is not a flight of stairs with 1 step.
    1 day from 8am is 8am tomorrow, if we're going full 24 hour units, but today is a day which hasn't happened yet then too so if we're counting discrete days and not hours, then today ought to be counted.

    So if we are going off discrete days the question becomes whether you round up, or round down, essentially.

    Many years ago I worked in a business which very strictly operated on this principle for dating products. If a product was dated 8 days from now, then that would be a week today. Why? Because today always has to be counted was the rule. If it was dating products for 2 days, that would be today and tomorrow. If something was dated 1 day then that means by close of business today.

    All day today and then all day tomorrow ≠ 1 day.
    The context was the statement, "12 days until PM Starmer."

    You may have whatever strange definitions you want for other contexts, but in that context, we are effectively counting the gaps between days, because we are counting a duration of time from one point, "now" to a specific point, "then", which will be some time relatively early on July 5th - not until the end of July 5th.
    Today is a day.

    Tomorrow is a day.

    Today and tomorrow is two days.

    The election is on day eleven, but the results come out overnight and in day 12 we will have PM Starmer.

    If you want to count the gaps, then you can count the nights. 11 more nights. But like with a holiday you can get 5 days but 4 nights.
    Really?

    How many days until PM Starmer?

    What is your answer?
    Since its now 8pm I'll say 11.

    If you'd asked at 8am I'd say 12.

    I'm looking at booking my holiday for next year, we're looking at booking a 5 day, 4 night break. I'd be pissed off if I only got 4 days there.
    Yes. Those are two different contexts for use of the word day, as I explained earlier. This isn't unusual for English, why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    If we assume the PM switch happens at 11am on July 5th then it's just over ten and a half days until PM Starmer, though typically people would say 11 days whatever time that question was asked today.

    Thinking more about this, I think the old-fashioned way of saying something like this would be, "It's eleven days until the day we expect Starmer becomes PM."

    But anyway, this is exactly analogous to counting steps on a flight of stairs, and surely you don't count a single step as two?
    You're right I don't count any step as 2, I count each as 1 - but you don't discount any either.

    Just as I'd say my house has 2 stories in it, the ground floor and the top floor. You don't discount any either.

    Looking at the days between now and when Starmer comes in, the total is 12.

    1: Today
    2: Tomorrrow
    3: 26th
    4: 27th
    5: 28th
    6: 29th
    7: 30th
    8: 1st July
    9: 2nd
    10: 3rd
    11: 4th
    12: 5th

    No double counting necessary, just single counting each day. Only way you get to less than 12 is by discounting either today or the 5th or both.
    It's already today. So on one day it is tomorrow. That's why you count one day less in this context.

    In your house you move one floor up to get from the ground floor to the upper floor. Not two.

    We are counting the time between two days, not counting the days themselves. Do you not see?
    No, we are not. You are, but that wasn't the original quote. The original quote was "over the next 12 days".

    Over a period of time includes today. If I say on Monday morning in a meeting that over the next five days we have to get x, y and z done - then it has to be done by Friday, not a week on Monday.

    Today is day one of the next 12 days. Tomorrow is day two. We aren't talking steps, we're counting all the time - at the time the quote was made there were still polls to come out today, as well as polls to come out tomorrow and ultimately the actual poll that counts on day 12.
    Most people do not include the current day. If you gave most people five days from 9.10 pm today they would expect it to be a Saturday deadline.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088
    And go Modric!
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,592

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    And yet the 'sewage stuff' might all just be data measurement issues...
    I don’t think so. Number of recorded events suggest otherwise.

    The Rivers Trust says: However, even taking this into consideration, there’s no denying that 2023 was worse than 2021 for sewage spills. For England alone, last year was the worst on record for sewage spills – untreated sewage was discharged for over double the total number of hours than 2022, and over 163,000 more discharges counted.
    Government has made water companies put measurement devices on all outflows recently. That is why more hours are being measured. Previously, many outflows measured 0 hours, simply because there was no measurement. Progress!
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,564

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage to stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    And yet the 'sewage stuff' might all just be data measurement issues...
    Whether it has got (even) worse just lately or the monitoring has just got better is immaterial. It doesn't change the fact that it is happening, the reason it is happening is that the water firms have been bled white in order to feed profits to the Emirate of Dubai and the Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund, and that they now want to impose enormous price hikes to fix the damage entirely at the expense of the put upon consumer, as opposed to Canadian pensioners or oil sheikhs.

    The chickens (and their vast quantities of shit dumped into various waterways) have come home to roost under a Conservative Government, and in this instance the entire problem originated under another Conservative Government that created these businesses in the first place. It's small wonder that the many, many people who are royally pissed off about this may not entirely trust a Conservative Government to put it all to rights.
  • Options

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    Bear in mind my daughter was five at the time, and I think you may want to reconsider your answer. In 1 day from 8am on a day it will then be 8am on the next day. Tomorrow.

    A flat floor is not a flight of stairs with 1 step.
    1 day from 8am is 8am tomorrow, if we're going full 24 hour units, but today is a day which hasn't happened yet then too so if we're counting discrete days and not hours, then today ought to be counted.

    So if we are going off discrete days the question becomes whether you round up, or round down, essentially.

    Many years ago I worked in a business which very strictly operated on this principle for dating products. If a product was dated 8 days from now, then that would be a week today. Why? Because today always has to be counted was the rule. If it was dating products for 2 days, that would be today and tomorrow. If something was dated 1 day then that means by close of business today.

    All day today and then all day tomorrow ≠ 1 day.
    The context was the statement, "12 days until PM Starmer."

    You may have whatever strange definitions you want for other contexts, but in that context, we are effectively counting the gaps between days, because we are counting a duration of time from one point, "now" to a specific point, "then", which will be some time relatively early on July 5th - not until the end of July 5th.
    Today is a day.

    Tomorrow is a day.

    Today and tomorrow is two days.

    The election is on day eleven, but the results come out overnight and in day 12 we will have PM Starmer.

    If you want to count the gaps, then you can count the nights. 11 more nights. But like with a holiday you can get 5 days but 4 nights.
    Really?

    How many days until PM Starmer?

    What is your answer?
    Since its now 8pm I'll say 11.

    If you'd asked at 8am I'd say 12.

    I'm looking at booking my holiday for next year, we're looking at booking a 5 day, 4 night break. I'd be pissed off if I only got 4 days there.
    Yes. Those are two different contexts for use of the word day, as I explained earlier. This isn't unusual for English, why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    If we assume the PM switch happens at 11am on July 5th then it's just over ten and a half days until PM Starmer, though typically people would say 11 days whatever time that question was asked today.

    Thinking more about this, I think the old-fashioned way of saying something like this would be, "It's eleven days until the day we expect Starmer becomes PM."

    But anyway, this is exactly analogous to counting steps on a flight of stairs, and surely you don't count a single step as two?
    You're right I don't count any step as 2, I count each as 1 - but you don't discount any either.

    Just as I'd say my house has 2 stories in it, the ground floor and the top floor. You don't discount any either.

    Looking at the days between now and when Starmer comes in, the total is 12.

    1: Today
    2: Tomorrrow
    3: 26th
    4: 27th
    5: 28th
    6: 29th
    7: 30th
    8: 1st July
    9: 2nd
    10: 3rd
    11: 4th
    12: 5th

    No double counting necessary, just single counting each day. Only way you get to less than 12 is by discounting either today or the 5th or both.
    It's already today. So on one day it is tomorrow. That's why you count one day less in this context.

    In your house you move one floor up to get from the ground floor to the upper floor. Not two.

    We are counting the time between two days, not counting the days themselves. Do you not see?
    No, we are not. You are, but that wasn't the original quote. The original quote was "over the next 12 days".

    Over a period of time includes today. If I say on Monday morning in a meeting that over the next five days we have to get x, y and z done - then it has to be done by Friday, not a week on Monday.

    Today is day one of the next 12 days. Tomorrow is day two. We aren't talking steps, we're counting all the time - at the time the quote was made there were still polls to come out today, as well as polls to come out tomorrow and ultimately the actual poll that counts on day 12.
    Most people do not include the current day. If you gave most people five days from 9.10 pm today they would expect it to be a Saturday deadline.
    Jeez. This debate is starting to give the dispute about the Filoque a run for its money as poisonous debates about pedantic semantics go.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,611
    darkage said:

    The prison population in the UK is expected to rise to 115000 , from 85000 at present.
    The cost of one year of incarceration is £50,000 per year. So as far as I can work out the cost of this rise would be £1.5 billion per year.

    I'm increasingly unconvinced it's much of an answer, to be honest.
  • Options

    And go Modric!

    Is that one of Leons aliases?
  • Options
    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,592
    pigeon said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage to stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    And yet the 'sewage stuff' might all just be data measurement issues...
    Whether it has got (even) worse just lately or the monitoring has just got better is immaterial. It doesn't change the fact that it is happening, the reason it is happening is that the water firms have been bled white in order to feed profits to the Emirate of Dubai and the Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund, and that they now want to impose enormous price hikes to fix the damage entirely at the expense of the put upon consumer, as opposed to Canadian pensioners or oil sheikhs.

    The chickens (and their vast quantities of shit dumped into various waterways) have come home to roost under a Conservative Government, and in this instance the entire problem originated under another Conservative Government that created these businesses in the first place. It's small wonder that the many, many people who are royally pissed off about this may not entirely trust a Conservative Government to put it all to rights.
    Correct. One can criticise the structure and behaviour of the privatised water system and its actors without these delusions about sewage. There are plenty of grounds on which to do so.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,611
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
    One or two are perfect around 4pm on a hot afternoon, in my experience, the sweetness is perhaps akin to the desire for a scone and jam and cream at British teatime, never a bad thing - but I prefer the alcohol

    Brittany is seriously lovely, It may be my new favourite region of France, overtaking Languedoc and the Basque Country

    The only bits I have left to explore are parts of Normandy and the eastern fringe, tho I have been there a fair amount

    The roads are, as you say, astonishingly good. They actually have beautiful roundabouts. Who the fuck has beautiful roundabouts??? Not even Switzerland or the richest corners of the USA - Connecticut- SOCA - have beautiful roundabouts. I imagine some peculiar French college of roundabout design possibly in the Cevennes or near Amboise which has been going since Louis XI expressed a need for more lovely turnpikes in the 1530s, and which still prevails

    Indeed there is probably a French Guild of Roundabout Designers who elect a dozen Immortals every year but recently they are feeling threatened by South Korean motorway verge dudes so they are all going to vote Nazi
    Beautiful roads, great railways. etc. That's what 45% GDP tax rates get you.

    I will get shouted down on here but I'd rather pay 45% GDP and have great infrastructure than 36% GDP and have the shite we have got in this country.
    I am tempted to agree. Given that Britain is now close to France on tax rates I would like us to have beautiful French towns, roads and railways and hospitals. Just do it

    Honestly, if that is Skyr Toolmakersson’s intention with his 900 majority, just get on and do it. And I will cope. Sadly I fear we are going to end up with EU tax rates and US public services, and oodles and oodles of Woke
    Yeah. The last bit.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088
    pigeon said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage to stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    And yet the 'sewage stuff' might all just be data measurement issues...
    Whether it has got (even) worse just lately or the monitoring has just got better is immaterial. It doesn't change the fact that it is happening, the reason it is happening is that the water firms have been bled white in order to feed profits to the Emirate of Dubai and the Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund, and that they now want to impose enormous price hikes to fix the damage entirely at the expense of the put upon consumer, as opposed to Canadian pensioners or oil sheikhs.

    The chickens (and their vast quantities of shit dumped into various waterways) have come home to roost under a Conservative Government, and in this instance the entire problem originated under another Conservative Government that created these businesses in the first place. It's small wonder that the many, many people who are royally pissed off about this may not entirely trust a Conservative Government to put it all to rights.
    It’s no5 just the water firms fault though. Near my house there was a plot of land that had four new builds put on it. And the whole space around them (not back gardens, but all the other space) just tarmaced. All that enhanced run off. A lot of the issue (not all) is heavy rain plus greater run off from developments like this (completed in 2023!).
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,256

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    Bear in mind my daughter was five at the time, and I think you may want to reconsider your answer. In 1 day from 8am on a day it will then be 8am on the next day. Tomorrow.

    A flat floor is not a flight of stairs with 1 step.
    1 day from 8am is 8am tomorrow, if we're going full 24 hour units, but today is a day which hasn't happened yet then too so if we're counting discrete days and not hours, then today ought to be counted.

    So if we are going off discrete days the question becomes whether you round up, or round down, essentially.

    Many years ago I worked in a business which very strictly operated on this principle for dating products. If a product was dated 8 days from now, then that would be a week today. Why? Because today always has to be counted was the rule. If it was dating products for 2 days, that would be today and tomorrow. If something was dated 1 day then that means by close of business today.

    All day today and then all day tomorrow ≠ 1 day.
    The context was the statement, "12 days until PM Starmer."

    You may have whatever strange definitions you want for other contexts, but in that context, we are effectively counting the gaps between days, because we are counting a duration of time from one point, "now" to a specific point, "then", which will be some time relatively early on July 5th - not until the end of July 5th.
    Today is a day.

    Tomorrow is a day.

    Today and tomorrow is two days.

    The election is on day eleven, but the results come out overnight and in day 12 we will have PM Starmer.

    If you want to count the gaps, then you can count the nights. 11 more nights. But like with a holiday you can get 5 days but 4 nights.
    Really?

    How many days until PM Starmer?

    What is your answer?
    Since its now 8pm I'll say 11.

    If you'd asked at 8am I'd say 12.

    I'm looking at booking my holiday for next year, we're looking at booking a 5 day, 4 night break. I'd be pissed off if I only got 4 days there.
    Yes. Those are two different contexts for use of the word day, as I explained earlier. This isn't unusual for English, why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    If we assume the PM switch happens at 11am on July 5th then it's just over ten and a half days until PM Starmer, though typically people would say 11 days whatever time that question was asked today.

    Thinking more about this, I think the old-fashioned way of saying something like this would be, "It's eleven days until the day we expect Starmer becomes PM."

    But anyway, this is exactly analogous to counting steps on a flight of stairs, and surely you don't count a single step as two?
    You're right I don't count any step as 2, I count each as 1 - but you don't discount any either.

    Just as I'd say my house has 2 stories in it, the ground floor and the top floor. You don't discount any either.

    Looking at the days between now and when Starmer comes in, the total is 12.

    1: Today
    2: Tomorrrow
    3: 26th
    4: 27th
    5: 28th
    6: 29th
    7: 30th
    8: 1st July
    9: 2nd
    10: 3rd
    11: 4th
    12: 5th

    No double counting necessary, just single counting each day. Only way you get to less than 12 is by discounting either today or the 5th or both.
    It's already today. So on one day it is tomorrow. That's why you count one day less in this context.

    In your house you move one floor up to get from the ground floor to the upper floor. Not two.

    We are counting the time between two days, not counting the days themselves. Do you not see?
    No, we are not. You are, but that wasn't the original quote. The original quote was "over the next 12 days".

    Over a period of time includes today. If I say on Monday morning in a meeting that over the next five days we have to get x, y and z done - then it has to be done by Friday, not a week on Monday.

    Today is day one of the next 12 days. Tomorrow is day two. We aren't talking steps, we're counting all the time - at the time the quote was made there were still polls to come out today, as well as polls to come out tomorrow and ultimately the actual poll that counts on day 12.
    Most people do not include the current day. If you gave most people five days from 9.10 pm today they would expect it to be a Saturday deadline.
    Jeez. This debate is starting to give the dispute about the Filoque a run for its money as poisonous debates about pedantic semantics go.
    Don't let them get onto the subject of how many days until the start of autumn!
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088
    carnforth said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Hard to underestimate the sewage stuff too. That has seriously angered people.
    And yet the 'sewage stuff' might all just be data measurement issues...
    I don’t think so. Number of recorded events suggest otherwise.

    The Rivers Trust says: However, even taking this into consideration, there’s no denying that 2023 was worse than 2021 for sewage spills. For England alone, last year was the worst on record for sewage spills – untreated sewage was discharged for over double the total number of hours than 2022, and over 163,000 more discharges counted.
    Government has made water companies put measurement devices on all outflows recently. That is why more hours are being measured. Previously, many outflows measured 0 hours, simply because there was no measurement. Progress!
    To understand a problem you must measure it.
    However measurement also tends to lead to distortion, as Tony Blair found out with GP appointments.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 16,088
    Foxy said:

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    Bear in mind my daughter was five at the time, and I think you may want to reconsider your answer. In 1 day from 8am on a day it will then be 8am on the next day. Tomorrow.

    A flat floor is not a flight of stairs with 1 step.
    1 day from 8am is 8am tomorrow, if we're going full 24 hour units, but today is a day which hasn't happened yet then too so if we're counting discrete days and not hours, then today ought to be counted.

    So if we are going off discrete days the question becomes whether you round up, or round down, essentially.

    Many years ago I worked in a business which very strictly operated on this principle for dating products. If a product was dated 8 days from now, then that would be a week today. Why? Because today always has to be counted was the rule. If it was dating products for 2 days, that would be today and tomorrow. If something was dated 1 day then that means by close of business today.

    All day today and then all day tomorrow ≠ 1 day.
    The context was the statement, "12 days until PM Starmer."

    You may have whatever strange definitions you want for other contexts, but in that context, we are effectively counting the gaps between days, because we are counting a duration of time from one point, "now" to a specific point, "then", which will be some time relatively early on July 5th - not until the end of July 5th.
    Today is a day.

    Tomorrow is a day.

    Today and tomorrow is two days.

    The election is on day eleven, but the results come out overnight and in day 12 we will have PM Starmer.

    If you want to count the gaps, then you can count the nights. 11 more nights. But like with a holiday you can get 5 days but 4 nights.
    Really?

    How many days until PM Starmer?

    What is your answer?
    Since its now 8pm I'll say 11.

    If you'd asked at 8am I'd say 12.

    I'm looking at booking my holiday for next year, we're looking at booking a 5 day, 4 night break. I'd be pissed off if I only got 4 days there.
    Yes. Those are two different contexts for use of the word day, as I explained earlier. This isn't unusual for English, why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    If we assume the PM switch happens at 11am on July 5th then it's just over ten and a half days until PM Starmer, though typically people would say 11 days whatever time that question was asked today.

    Thinking more about this, I think the old-fashioned way of saying something like this would be, "It's eleven days until the day we expect Starmer becomes PM."

    But anyway, this is exactly analogous to counting steps on a flight of stairs, and surely you don't count a single step as two?
    You're right I don't count any step as 2, I count each as 1 - but you don't discount any either.

    Just as I'd say my house has 2 stories in it, the ground floor and the top floor. You don't discount any either.

    Looking at the days between now and when Starmer comes in, the total is 12.

    1: Today
    2: Tomorrrow
    3: 26th
    4: 27th
    5: 28th
    6: 29th
    7: 30th
    8: 1st July
    9: 2nd
    10: 3rd
    11: 4th
    12: 5th

    No double counting necessary, just single counting each day. Only way you get to less than 12 is by discounting either today or the 5th or both.
    It's already today. So on one day it is tomorrow. That's why you count one day less in this context.

    In your house you move one floor up to get from the ground floor to the upper floor. Not two.

    We are counting the time between two days, not counting the days themselves. Do you not see?
    No, we are not. You are, but that wasn't the original quote. The original quote was "over the next 12 days".

    Over a period of time includes today. If I say on Monday morning in a meeting that over the next five days we have to get x, y and z done - then it has to be done by Friday, not a week on Monday.

    Today is day one of the next 12 days. Tomorrow is day two. We aren't talking steps, we're counting all the time - at the time the quote was made there were still polls to come out today, as well as polls to come out tomorrow and ultimately the actual poll that counts on day 12.
    Most people do not include the current day. If you gave most people five days from 9.10 pm today they would expect it to be a Saturday deadline.
    Jeez. This debate is starting to give the dispute about the Filoque a run for its money as poisonous debates about pedantic semantics go.
    Don't let them get onto the subject of how many days until the start of autumn!
    A perenial favourite. We’ve just had the start of summer (or not).
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,949
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Fuck me, have I lucked out with the weather or WHAT

    I cannot imagine a nicer thing than a free week (thank you, the French tax payer) touring the islands of Brittany in unfiltered summer sunshine, all exes paid, cars boats and hotels, plus oysters and kirs Breton included (kir Bretons? Sir Kirs Bretonnique?)

    Heh

    I think Kirs Breton is the more elegant formulation. As it is, I’m not massively keen on the drink (finding it too sweet). But, first world problems. Brittany is, as you say, lovely.
    One or two are perfect around 4pm on a hot afternoon, in my experience, the sweetness is perhaps akin to the desire for a scone and jam and cream at British teatime, never a bad thing - but I prefer the alcohol

    Brittany is seriously lovely, It may be my new favourite region of France, overtaking Languedoc and the Basque Country

    The only bits I have left to explore are parts of Normandy and the eastern fringe, tho I have been there a fair amount

    The roads are, as you say, astonishingly good. They actually have beautiful roundabouts. Who the fuck has beautiful roundabouts??? Not even Switzerland or the richest corners of the USA - Connecticut- SOCA - have beautiful roundabouts. I imagine some peculiar French college of roundabout design possibly in the Cevennes or near Amboise which has been going since Louis XI expressed a need for more lovely turnpikes in the 1530s, and which still prevails

    Indeed there is probably a French Guild of Roundabout Designers who elect a dozen Immortals every year but recently they are feeling threatened by South Korean motorway verge dudes so they are all going to vote Nazi
    You might actually be close to reality there.

    France has the most roundabouts in the world (though we have more per km of road), and they were little known in S Korea a decade or so back.

    First introduced in Jeju, in 2010, they are steadily being adopted in the name of efficient traffic management.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,182
    On topic (and thanks for the great thread @TheGreenMachine), the decline of the UUP is a sight to behold.

    You see that UUP, Tories? That’s your future that is…
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 40,058

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    Bear in mind my daughter was five at the time, and I think you may want to reconsider your answer. In 1 day from 8am on a day it will then be 8am on the next day. Tomorrow.

    A flat floor is not a flight of stairs with 1 step.
    1 day from 8am is 8am tomorrow, if we're going full 24 hour units, but today is a day which hasn't happened yet then too so if we're counting discrete days and not hours, then today ought to be counted.

    So if we are going off discrete days the question becomes whether you round up, or round down, essentially.

    Many years ago I worked in a business which very strictly operated on this principle for dating products. If a product was dated 8 days from now, then that would be a week today. Why? Because today always has to be counted was the rule. If it was dating products for 2 days, that would be today and tomorrow. If something was dated 1 day then that means by close of business today.

    All day today and then all day tomorrow ≠ 1 day.
    The context was the statement, "12 days until PM Starmer."

    You may have whatever strange definitions you want for other contexts, but in that context, we are effectively counting the gaps between days, because we are counting a duration of time from one point, "now" to a specific point, "then", which will be some time relatively early on July 5th - not until the end of July 5th.
    Today is a day.

    Tomorrow is a day.

    Today and tomorrow is two days.

    The election is on day eleven, but the results come out overnight and in day 12 we will have PM Starmer.

    If you want to count the gaps, then you can count the nights. 11 more nights. But like with a holiday you can get 5 days but 4 nights.
    Really?

    How many days until PM Starmer?

    What is your answer?
    Since its now 8pm I'll say 11.

    If you'd asked at 8am I'd say 12.

    I'm looking at booking my holiday for next year, we're looking at booking a 5 day, 4 night break. I'd be pissed off if I only got 4 days there.
    Yes. Those are two different contexts for use of the word day, as I explained earlier. This isn't unusual for English, why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    If we assume the PM switch happens at 11am on July 5th then it's just over ten and a half days until PM Starmer, though typically people would say 11 days whatever time that question was asked today.

    Thinking more about this, I think the old-fashioned way of saying something like this would be, "It's eleven days until the day we expect Starmer becomes PM."

    But anyway, this is exactly analogous to counting steps on a flight of stairs, and surely you don't count a single step as two?
    You're right I don't count any step as 2, I count each as 1 - but you don't discount any either.

    Just as I'd say my house has 2 stories in it, the ground floor and the top floor. You don't discount any either.

    Looking at the days between now and when Starmer comes in, the total is 12.

    1: Today
    2: Tomorrrow
    3: 26th
    4: 27th
    5: 28th
    6: 29th
    7: 30th
    8: 1st July
    9: 2nd
    10: 3rd
    11: 4th
    12: 5th

    No double counting necessary, just single counting each day. Only way you get to less than 12 is by discounting either today or the 5th or both.
    It's already today. So on one day it is tomorrow. That's why you count one day less in this context.

    In your house you move one floor up to get from the ground floor to the upper floor. Not two.

    We are counting the time between two days, not counting the days themselves. Do you not see?
    No, we are not. You are, but that wasn't the original quote. The original quote was "over the next 12 days".

    Over a period of time includes today. If I say on Monday morning in a meeting that over the next five days we have to get x, y and z done - then it has to be done by Friday, not a week on Monday.

    Today is day one of the next 12 days. Tomorrow is day two. We aren't talking steps, we're counting all the time - at the time the quote was made there were still polls to come out today, as well as polls to come out tomorrow and ultimately the actual poll that counts on day 12.
    Most people do not include the current day. If you gave most people five days from 9.10 pm today they would expect it to be a Saturday deadline.
    Jeez. This debate is starting to give the dispute about the Filoque a run for its money as poisonous debates about pedantic semantics go.
    Well I did say it wasn't debatable - but to the great detriment of the thread I was ignored.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,836

    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    If you think letting loved ones die alone is ok well its a view i suppose.
    If you think having loved ones die alone as invaders in a trench in Ukraine is OK, well it's a view I suppose....
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 50,160
    I would like to have seen Montana the Northern Irish railway network...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,949

    DougSeal said:

    OT: The more and more people I talk to, the more I think the story of this election is still Partygate.

    The thing that annoyed middle England like nothing else - that anecdotally has turned away so many people’s ‘lifelong Tory uncles/aunts’ - is probably more responsible than anything that happened since.

    And here is something that might reverberate.

    If the Tories do end up on 0-50 seats: Might it improve the public standards/accountability of governments for years to come?

    If ‘Partygate wot lost it’ becomes the narrative going forward - including other conduct related scandals - I imagine governments will become far far less tolerant of sloppy conduct - things like Gamblergate. Internal discipline will have to increase. Govts with huge majorities will no longer thing they are invulnerable - “Remember what happened to the Tories in 2024?”

    This might be an optimistic take on things. But regardless of your political persuasion, I think it would send a strong “Don’t mess with the British public” message for future governments of all stripes - and that can only be good for us all.

    Well "partygate" is such an issue because many of the british feel they were conned with the covid lockdowns and are ashamed of their part in it (for example letting people die alone). Interestingly this was where the biggest opposition to partygate came from from those who let their relatives die alone. But a large part of this is shame they let their loved ones die alone on the orders of the british state. This toxic shame leads to overwhelming hatred for those who enforced the measures/conned them.
    You are so embarrassingly bad at this I almost feel sorry for you.
    If you think letting loved ones die alone is ok well its a view i suppose.
    VP loves no one but himself.
    And even that’s doubtful.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,836

    dixiedean said:

    I can answer the question how many days to the election.
    Too many.

    Be happy it’s in July. We could still have been waiting till Jan…
    On the flip side, you may well have had the fun of seeing Leon win his zero seats bet....
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 21,658
    Foxy said:

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    Bear in mind my daughter was five at the time, and I think you may want to reconsider your answer. In 1 day from 8am on a day it will then be 8am on the next day. Tomorrow.

    A flat floor is not a flight of stairs with 1 step.
    1 day from 8am is 8am tomorrow, if we're going full 24 hour units, but today is a day which hasn't happened yet then too so if we're counting discrete days and not hours, then today ought to be counted.

    So if we are going off discrete days the question becomes whether you round up, or round down, essentially.

    Many years ago I worked in a business which very strictly operated on this principle for dating products. If a product was dated 8 days from now, then that would be a week today. Why? Because today always has to be counted was the rule. If it was dating products for 2 days, that would be today and tomorrow. If something was dated 1 day then that means by close of business today.

    All day today and then all day tomorrow ≠ 1 day.
    The context was the statement, "12 days until PM Starmer."

    You may have whatever strange definitions you want for other contexts, but in that context, we are effectively counting the gaps between days, because we are counting a duration of time from one point, "now" to a specific point, "then", which will be some time relatively early on July 5th - not until the end of July 5th.
    Today is a day.

    Tomorrow is a day.

    Today and tomorrow is two days.

    The election is on day eleven, but the results come out overnight and in day 12 we will have PM Starmer.

    If you want to count the gaps, then you can count the nights. 11 more nights. But like with a holiday you can get 5 days but 4 nights.
    Really?

    How many days until PM Starmer?

    What is your answer?
    Since its now 8pm I'll say 11.

    If you'd asked at 8am I'd say 12.

    I'm looking at booking my holiday for next year, we're looking at booking a 5 day, 4 night break. I'd be pissed off if I only got 4 days there.
    Yes. Those are two different contexts for use of the word day, as I explained earlier. This isn't unusual for English, why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    If we assume the PM switch happens at 11am on July 5th then it's just over ten and a half days until PM Starmer, though typically people would say 11 days whatever time that question was asked today.

    Thinking more about this, I think the old-fashioned way of saying something like this would be, "It's eleven days until the day we expect Starmer becomes PM."

    But anyway, this is exactly analogous to counting steps on a flight of stairs, and surely you don't count a single step as two?
    You're right I don't count any step as 2, I count each as 1 - but you don't discount any either.

    Just as I'd say my house has 2 stories in it, the ground floor and the top floor. You don't discount any either.

    Looking at the days between now and when Starmer comes in, the total is 12.

    1: Today
    2: Tomorrrow
    3: 26th
    4: 27th
    5: 28th
    6: 29th
    7: 30th
    8: 1st July
    9: 2nd
    10: 3rd
    11: 4th
    12: 5th

    No double counting necessary, just single counting each day. Only way you get to less than 12 is by discounting either today or the 5th or both.
    It's already today. So on one day it is tomorrow. That's why you count one day less in this context.

    In your house you move one floor up to get from the ground floor to the upper floor. Not two.

    We are counting the time between two days, not counting the days themselves. Do you not see?
    No, we are not. You are, but that wasn't the original quote. The original quote was "over the next 12 days".

    Over a period of time includes today. If I say on Monday morning in a meeting that over the next five days we have to get x, y and z done - then it has to be done by Friday, not a week on Monday.

    Today is day one of the next 12 days. Tomorrow is day two. We aren't talking steps, we're counting all the time - at the time the quote was made there were still polls to come out today, as well as polls to come out tomorrow and ultimately the actual poll that counts on day 12.
    Most people do not include the current day. If you gave most people five days from 9.10 pm today they would expect it to be a Saturday deadline.
    Jeez. This debate is starting to give the dispute about the Filoque a run for its money as poisonous debates about pedantic semantics go.
    Don't let them get onto the subject of how many days until the start of autumn!
    Guess the Weight of Boris Johnson is the classic of the genre.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,412

    Foxy said:

    .

    HYUFD said:

    🆕 @Moreincommon_ voting intention. Small changes but our highest Reform score yet. While Labour tick back up & lead by 16
    🔴 LAB 41% (+2)
    🔵 CON 25% (-)
    🟠 LIB DEM 10% (-1)
    🟣 REF UK 15% (+1)
    🟢 GRN 5% (-)
    🟡 SNP 2%(-1)
    Dates: 21-23/6 N: 2046 Tables: moreincommon.org.uk/our-work/votin…
    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1805274012135702821?s=19

    Reform up but Tories will be relieved their lead over Reform for 2nd is 10% ie double the 5% lead Reform have over the LDs for 3rd
    Why should the Tories be relieved ? They will lose and then have to rebuild a party.
    Actually that is inevitable and I may be mistaken but I cannot see much change in the polling over the next 12 days

    I suppose it will all come down to the 'hovering pen' over the ballot paper

    For me I just want Starmer in no 10 and for the country to move on
    Twelve days? You are Laura K and I claim by fiver.
    It is 12 days to the 5th July
    It is nine and a bit days until polling day.
    24,25,26,27,28,29,30,01,02,03,04 and result day 05 = 12 days
    I am getting flashbacks to arguments with my daughter about how to count steps.

    In 1 day it is the 25th, tomorrow not today, so it is 11 days until Friday evening, the day after the election.
    Do you count today or not is always a matter of some debate.

    For me the debate is wrapped up by thinking its nearly 7pm and I've got a beer open, so no, today is done.

    Had you said this at 8am this morning, I'd have looked at needing to work today and said yes today has to be counted.
    Bear in mind my daughter was five at the time, and I think you may want to reconsider your answer. In 1 day from 8am on a day it will then be 8am on the next day. Tomorrow.

    A flat floor is not a flight of stairs with 1 step.
    1 day from 8am is 8am tomorrow, if we're going full 24 hour units, but today is a day which hasn't happened yet then too so if we're counting discrete days and not hours, then today ought to be counted.

    So if we are going off discrete days the question becomes whether you round up, or round down, essentially.

    Many years ago I worked in a business which very strictly operated on this principle for dating products. If a product was dated 8 days from now, then that would be a week today. Why? Because today always has to be counted was the rule. If it was dating products for 2 days, that would be today and tomorrow. If something was dated 1 day then that means by close of business today.

    All day today and then all day tomorrow ≠ 1 day.
    The context was the statement, "12 days until PM Starmer."

    You may have whatever strange definitions you want for other contexts, but in that context, we are effectively counting the gaps between days, because we are counting a duration of time from one point, "now" to a specific point, "then", which will be some time relatively early on July 5th - not until the end of July 5th.
    Today is a day.

    Tomorrow is a day.

    Today and tomorrow is two days.

    The election is on day eleven, but the results come out overnight and in day 12 we will have PM Starmer.

    If you want to count the gaps, then you can count the nights. 11 more nights. But like with a holiday you can get 5 days but 4 nights.
    Really?

    How many days until PM Starmer?

    What is your answer?
    Since its now 8pm I'll say 11.

    If you'd asked at 8am I'd say 12.

    I'm looking at booking my holiday for next year, we're looking at booking a 5 day, 4 night break. I'd be pissed off if I only got 4 days there.
    Yes. Those are two different contexts for use of the word day, as I explained earlier. This isn't unusual for English, why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    If we assume the PM switch happens at 11am on July 5th then it's just over ten and a half days until PM Starmer, though typically people would say 11 days whatever time that question was asked today.

    Thinking more about this, I think the old-fashioned way of saying something like this would be, "It's eleven days until the day we expect Starmer becomes PM."

    But anyway, this is exactly analogous to counting steps on a flight of stairs, and surely you don't count a single step as two?
    You're right I don't count any step as 2, I count each as 1 - but you don't discount any either.

    Just as I'd say my house has 2 stories in it, the ground floor and the top floor. You don't discount any either.

    Looking at the days between now and when Starmer comes in, the total is 12.

    1: Today
    2: Tomorrrow
    3: 26th
    4: 27th
    5: 28th
    6: 29th
    7: 30th
    8: 1st July
    9: 2nd
    10: 3rd
    11: 4th
    12: 5th

    No double counting necessary, just single counting each day. Only way you get to less than 12 is by discounting either today or the 5th or both.
    It's already today. So on one day it is tomorrow. That's why you count one day less in this context.

    In your house you move one floor up to get from the ground floor to the upper floor. Not two.

    We are counting the time between two days, not counting the days themselves. Do you not see?
    No, we are not. You are, but that wasn't the original quote. The original quote was "over the next 12 days".

    Over a period of time includes today. If I say on Monday morning in a meeting that over the next five days we have to get x, y and z done - then it has to be done by Friday, not a week on Monday.

    Today is day one of the next 12 days. Tomorrow is day two. We aren't talking steps, we're counting all the time - at the time the quote was made there were still polls to come out today, as well as polls to come out tomorrow and ultimately the actual poll that counts on day 12.
    Most people do not include the current day. If you gave most people five days from 9.10 pm today they would expect it to be a Saturday deadline.
    Jeez. This debate is starting to give the dispute about the Filoque a run for its money as poisonous debates about pedantic semantics go.
    Don't let them get onto the subject of how many days until the start of autumn!
    A perenial favourite. We’ve just had the start of summer (or not).
    Well the summer weather has only just arrived.
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