How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
We have seen more institutional vandalism in the last decade than we have in the previous seven: unlawful prorogation of Parliament; restrictions on the right to vote; the criminalisation of peaceful protest; the rejection of the rule of law; legislating that black is white; and so on.
I dislike all of those things (except the prorogation where I think we just ended up with an odd court decision, but then one’s views on that probably correlated with whether one thought it was a necessary measure to stop Parliament being silly) but I don’t view them as institutional vandalism. The anti-protest stuff is authoritarian rubbish that I am sure Labour will double down on, and we have seen that Labour will end up doing a different form of Rwanda anyway.
In a way you are highlighting all the bits of this Gvt I dislike because they remind me of 97-10.
What I mean by institutional vandalism is that I expect the British Museum to start giving away its treasures to every country with a silly grievance like Greece. I expect wigs to disappear from court rooms, and no one to stop the BBC killing of the Last Night of the Proms. I expect jury trial to be further restricted (as an “efficiency” measure) and I expect Parliament to be rebuilt, and whilst out of Westminster many of the traditions to die.
Actually maybe I won’t vote Labour…. It’ll all happen in the booth. The trouble is I despise this government for any number of other reasons, with Rwanda high on the list.
Isn’t the British Museum chair a Tory, George Osborne? It’s just that the British Museum has been doing a fairly poor job lately of holding on to its treasures, with over 2000 stolen: https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-66626619 If that’s what they’re like with a Tory chair under a Tory government, it’s not exactly a good argument to vote Conservative.
Are the streets of Clacton “mean”? I’ve not had the opportunity of visiting, but based on nearby Southend I’d guess they are more “bracing” and “filled with the mingled aromas of seaweed and frying chips”.
The streets of Jaywick are pretty mean.
Jaywick sounds like it should be somewhere in Northumberland.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
You must have a very unfortunate life if all of those apply to you.
But for other people its a time of full employment, pay rises, interest on their savings, no problems in seeing a doctor or dentist, minimal crime and cheap wine, beer and toothbrushes at supermarkets.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Innate tribalism? Mate…take a look at yourself.
You’re privileged and comfortable enough in a Conservative society. Good for you. But for many other people the Tories have been interfering in their families’ lives with disastrous effect. The Windrush generation and anyone with a variable rate mortgage to name but two. They need a break from it. Others actually need government help. It’s because of those two groups, not the small minority unaffected by Tory interference, that it is looking likely your tribe will have a somewhat suboptimal election.
It's word like "privileged", that feature so heavily in the Labour lexicon, which I find so deeply disturbing.
I started off with zero in the bank account post graduation, and I was on an average salary 10 years ago. I only entered the tax trap 2.5 years ago with a big promotion.
It's the thin end of the wedge of a war on aspiration and success that will damage the country, to all of our detriment.
I'm sure others might get to this too, but your line "I started off with zero in the bank account post graduation" precisely plays into the hidden nature of your privilege; that you envisage this as somehow starting from zero just shows how blinkered you are.
Not a dig at you personally by the way, many others see the world in the same way. Indeed I probably did when I was younger and more naive
Russians launched a 16-vehicle convoy attack west of Avdiivka.
Footage shows all 16 vehicles being destroyed. Being a Russian tanker must now have a lower life expectancy than WW2 U-boat crews.
Plus claims another 58 pieces of Russian artillery were destroyed yesterday.
One trend I've noticed recently is Russian armoured vehicles being disabled by a first drone, then the crew being hunted down by other drones as they try to escape. There are a huge number of drones on the battlefield now, and soldiers have no defence against them.
90% of Ukrainian drones are manufactured in Ukraine. The lack of artillery ammunition while waiting for Congress to approve more support did hurt Ukraine, but they aren't entirely dependent on external support, and their own drones may well be a large part of their eventual victory.
Farage in parliament gives the BBC and other useful idiots an opportunity to keep platforming him.
No. Keep him out.
For those who believe in PR, do they really want Reform to get 0 seats from 10-20% of the vote?
Yes.
Because it will increase the pressure for a fair voting system.
Alternatively, it shows the value in keeping FPTP.
This is a point that seems lost on many posters.
The “weird” projections we are seeing are precisely the point of FPTP which is designed to keep fringe parties out unless and until they can demonstrate deep support in one or more local constituencies.
It’s not “undemocratic”.
Is that true? AFAIK the Reform Act 1884 was about equalising constituencies and getting rid of (most of) the multi-member seats. Was keeping fringe parties out really a motivating factor?
Yeah, I think it's dubious to say FPTP was "designed to" do anything -- it's one of the simplest and most natural seeming voting systems, which is why it's so widespread. I think effects like tending to exclude fringe parties, pushing towards a two party model, and tending to give governing majorities rather than coalitions are all emergent outcomes from the process rather than explicit effects aimed at by those who set up the system. (Which isn't to say they're not good arguments against change now we are where we are, if you happen to think they're good. Personally I prefer PR and will take the rough, like a block of Reform MPs, with the smooth, like everybody's vote being effective at a national level.)
FPTP is the natural way of organising things if you see the local area as the fundamental political unit. If you think MPs should and do look out first and foremost for their area, FPTP is a good fit. If you think MPs should or actually do tend to look out of national or party interests, then it's not a good fit.
Similarly, if you think voters tend to turn up to vote with this or that man or woman in mind, then FPTP seems a good choice. If you think voters turn up with this or that party in mind, then FPTP seems a bad choice.
Personally, I think both the way voters vote and the way MPs behave is much more inclined towards nation and party than local. Which isn't to say that local factors don't get a look in.
In my view, Holyrood has the best of both worlds. It's very proportional to votes cast, but still has constituency MSPs to keep the localism focus. I have multiple MSPs I can go to: a constituency one and several regional ones.
The problem with the Holyrood system of PR is that the party hierarchy choose the order of the list MSPs.Therefore you get the most obsequious loyalists at the top of the list. With STV, numpties are less likely to pick up alternative votes.
Russians launched a 16-vehicle convoy attack west of Avdiivka.
Footage shows all 16 vehicles being destroyed. Being a Russian tanker must now have a lower life expectancy than WW2 U-boat crews.
Plus claims another 58 pieces of Russian artillery were destroyed yesterday.
The Russian tabloids are trying to make Kamala Harris leaving the summit on Ukraine early into the big story.
Wait until they find out what the Russian delegation did!
Not much evidence of major Russian interference in our election so far, unless it’s being done very subtly. You’d think there would be lots of social media amplification of Farage and reform, and probably also of Gaza talking points and WPGB.
Perhaps the Euro elections and now the snap French election mean they’re focusing efforts elsewhere.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. And Starmer's not even going to deliver equality.
A regular line that's trotted out like it's some sort of killer point, but with zero truth in it.
It's there purely to justify dismissing any opposition to destructive policies.
Destructive policies? What have we had under the Tories? Waiting times for court cases up. NHS waiting lists up. Asylum claims waiting list up. Driving test waiting lists up.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. And Starmer's not even going to deliver equality.
A regular line that's trotted out like it's some sort of killer point, but with zero truth in it.
It's there purely to justify dismissing any opposition to destructive policies.
Destructive policies? What have we had under the Tories? Waiting times for court cases up. NHS waiting lists up. Asylum claims waiting list up. Driving test waiting lists up.
This is why Tory scare tactics just don’t work this time. It’s “Britain’s broken (by us), don’t let Labour ruin it”.
Also why Labour if they’re ruthless enough will be able to use scare tactics against the Tories in 2028 even if they themselves are unpopular by then. All they need to do is remind people of the 2019-2024 parliament.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
I would suggest you spend more time looking for another school for your son, rather than keep blaming labour (who aren't yet in power) for a school closing with falling rolls and poor financial management. There are plenty of other independent schools, good ones at that, who will pick up the flotsam and jetsom from failing schools.
Charming.
These are the sorts of people you're getting into bed with if you vote Labour, folks.
Russians launched a 16-vehicle convoy attack west of Avdiivka.
Footage shows all 16 vehicles being destroyed. Being a Russian tanker must now have a lower life expectancy than WW2 U-boat crews.
Plus claims another 58 pieces of Russian artillery were destroyed yesterday.
The Russian tabloids are trying to make Kamala Harris leaving the summit on Ukraine early into the big story.
Wait until they find out what the Russian delegation did!
Not much evidence of major Russian interference in our election so far, unless it’s being done very subtly. You’d think there would be lots of social media amplification of Farage and reform, and probably also of Gaza talking points and WPGB.
Perhaps the Euro elections and now the snap French election mean they’re focusing efforts elsewhere.
Or they already have reliable lieutenants in place...
Are the streets of Clacton “mean”? I’ve not had the opportunity of visiting, but based on nearby Southend I’d guess they are more “bracing” and “filled with the mingled aromas of seaweed and frying chips”.
The streets of Jaywick are pretty mean.
Jaywick sounds like it should be somewhere in Northumberland.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
You must have a very unfortunate life if all of those apply to you.
But for other people its a time of full employment, pay rises, interest on their savings, no problems in seeing a doctor or dentist, minimal crime and cheap wine, beer and toothbrushes at supermarkets.
Financially, I've never been more comfortable, and that will be true of a lot of people.
But, that does not give the current government a pass for all of its unforced errors.
Are the streets of Clacton “mean”? I’ve not had the opportunity of visiting, but based on nearby Southend I’d guess they are more “bracing” and “filled with the mingled aromas of seaweed and frying chips”.
Are the streets of Clacton “mean”? I’ve not had the opportunity of visiting, but based on nearby Southend I’d guess they are more “bracing” and “filled with the mingled aromas of seaweed and frying chips”.
The streets of Jaywick are pretty mean.
Jaywick sounds like it should be somewhere in Northumberland.
Farage in parliament gives the BBC and other useful idiots an opportunity to keep platforming him.
No. Keep him out.
For those who believe in PR, do they really want Reform to get 0 seats from 10-20% of the vote?
Yes.
Because it will increase the pressure for a fair voting system.
Alternatively, it shows the value in keeping FPTP.
This is a point that seems lost on many posters.
The “weird” projections we are seeing are precisely the point of FPTP which is designed to keep fringe parties out unless and until they can demonstrate deep support in one or more local constituencies.
It’s not “undemocratic”.
People preferring FPTP or not liking PR is of course fine. However as a fan of PR I do want to challenge other PR fans who think Reform should have zero representation with 10-20% of the vote. Its hypocrisy imo.
It would be hypocrisy if I’d seen any PR fan saying that, but I haven’t.
It seems a common sentiment from plenty of people who I would mostly agree with on here. Foxy explicitly at 9:09 on this thread as one example.
noneoftheabove said: For those who believe in PR, do they really want Reform to get 0 seats from 10-20% of the vote? Foxy: Yes. Because it will increase the pressure for a fair voting system.
He’s not saying that Reform should get no representation under a PR system. He’s saying that the flaws in FPTP will be more apparent if RefUK get no seats under the current system.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
I would suggest you spend more time looking for another school for your son, rather than keep blaming labour (who aren't yet in power) for a school closing with falling rolls and poor financial management. There are plenty of other independent schools, good ones at that, who will pick up the flotsam and jetsom from failing schools.
Charming.
These are the sorts of people you're getting into bed with if you vote Labour, folks.
...does anybody know the emoji symbol for a handbag?...
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
I would suggest you spend more time looking for another school for your son, rather than keep blaming labour (who aren't yet in power) for a school closing with falling rolls and poor financial management. There are plenty of other independent schools, good ones at that, who will pick up the flotsam and jetsom from failing schools.
Charming.
These are the sorts of people you're getting into bed with if you vote Labour, folks.
It’s the sort of free market thinking that has characterised Conservative ideology for decades. And the sort of sentiment eagerly expressed by Brexiteers every time anyone dared suggest leaving the EU might have real world effects on businesses. (Recall Boris’ now famous riposte when presented by one such complaint).
Russians launched a 16-vehicle convoy attack west of Avdiivka.
Footage shows all 16 vehicles being destroyed. Being a Russian tanker must now have a lower life expectancy than WW2 U-boat crews.
Plus claims another 58 pieces of Russian artillery were destroyed yesterday.
The Russian tabloids are trying to make Kamala Harris leaving the summit on Ukraine early into the big story.
Wait until they find out what the Russian delegation did!
Not much evidence of major Russian interference in our election so far, unless it’s being done very subtly. You’d think there would be lots of social media amplification of Farage and reform, and probably also of Gaza talking points and WPGB.
Perhaps the Euro elections and now the snap French election mean they’re focusing efforts elsewhere.
The likely result might be chaotic enough for them. I don’t mean the sense of who’s in power (clear Labour majority) but in stoking up Reform “unfairness” sentiment later? Also who’s to say we aren’t about to be bombarded for the finish…?
I suspect that Labour selecting a non-white candidate for Clacton, Brexit central, may limit their appeal to some sections of the electorate there. However, good on them for doing so.
I would love to be proved wrong, and my heart would sing if Jovan beat Farage.
A lot of Labour candidates seen as promising will have been given constituencies to fight with a view to gaining experience and nothing more. Now at least a few of them are likely to end up in Parliament. Maybe not in Clacton, though. It might have been different on the other side of the Thames Estuary.
This MRP for Clacton just doesn't pass the sniff test.
Firstly, explain to me how the Labour vote goes up nearly double. Nationally, the Labour vote is up barely a third on 2019 levels. That needs some extraordinary special pleading.
Secondly, explain why a portion of that Labour vote isn't going to Farage.
It makes no sense.
Isn't the whole point of MRP that it doesn't imply a uniform swing, and is instead based on demographics, which might include greater switching by Leave voters as the impact of that unwinds, for example.
I'm also sceptical about aspects of MRP stuff. But it's certainly true that the Labour vote cannot mathematically be up a third in Liverpool Walton, for example, and will be up more in other places.
Yes, it is a strength of MRP that it adjusts for demographics but a weakness is that it can take no account of special, local factors that might be in play in an individual constituency: a planning dispute; hospital closure; Nigel Farage.
Farage in parliament gives the BBC and other useful idiots an opportunity to keep platforming him.
No. Keep him out.
For those who believe in PR, do they really want Reform to get 0 seats from 10-20% of the vote?
Yes.
Because it will increase the pressure for a fair voting system.
Alternatively, it shows the value in keeping FPTP.
This is a point that seems lost on many posters.
The “weird” projections we are seeing are precisely the point of FPTP which is designed to keep fringe parties out unless and until they can demonstrate deep support in one or more local constituencies.
It’s not “undemocratic”.
People preferring FPTP or not liking PR is of course fine. However as a fan of PR I do want to challenge other PR fans who think Reform should have zero representation with 10-20% of the vote. Its hypocrisy imo.
It would be hypocrisy if I’d seen any PR fan saying that, but I haven’t.
It seems a common sentiment from plenty of people who I would mostly agree with on here. Foxy explicitly at 9:09 on this thread as one example.
noneoftheabove said: For those who believe in PR, do they really want Reform to get 0 seats from 10-20% of the vote? Foxy: Yes. Because it will increase the pressure for a fair voting system.
He’s not saying that Reform should get no representation under a PR system. He’s saying that the flaws in FPTP will be more apparent if RefUK get no seats under the current system.
Ok to make it clear. For the next parliament I think Reform should be getting some seats and won't begrudge them that, because I believe in PR and their views represent a significant minority of the country and therefore deserve representation. I don't approve of cheering on Reform getting zero seats despite them being about the last party I would vote for.
Are the streets of Clacton “mean”? I’ve not had the opportunity of visiting, but based on nearby Southend I’d guess they are more “bracing” and “filled with the mingled aromas of seaweed and frying chips”.
The streets of Jaywick are pretty mean.
Jaywick sounds like it should be somewhere in Northumberland.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
One reason I hate this government is because I know I'd hate the alternatives, but the Conservatives left no stone unturned in making people vote for the alternatives.
All we're getting is a choice between different brands of dogshit.
What I find nauseating is the whining self-entitlement Conservative politicians have that they can behave as they want but 40% of voters still have an obligation to vote for them to keep out Labour.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
You must have a very unfortunate life if all of those apply to you.
But for other people its a time of full employment, pay rises, interest on their savings, no problems in seeing a doctor or dentist, minimal crime and cheap wine, beer and toothbrushes at supermarkets.
Have you checked out the opinion polls? As to your second paragraph that would appear to apply to approximately 20% of those polled.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
He is though. The failed school he keeps crying about it is failing because 14 years of Conservative rule has reduced the number of people with children in this country who can afford their fees.
Farage in parliament gives the BBC and other useful idiots an opportunity to keep platforming him.
No. Keep him out.
For those who believe in PR, do they really want Reform to get 0 seats from 10-20% of the vote?
Yes.
Because it will increase the pressure for a fair voting system.
Alternatively, it shows the value in keeping FPTP.
This is a point that seems lost on many posters.
The “weird” projections we are seeing are precisely the point of FPTP which is designed to keep fringe parties out unless and until they can demonstrate deep support in one or more local constituencies.
It’s not “undemocratic”.
Is that true? AFAIK the Reform Act 1884 was about equalising constituencies and getting rid of (most of) the multi-member seats. Was keeping fringe parties out really a motivating factor?
Yeah, I think it's dubious to say FPTP was "designed to" do anything -- it's one of the simplest and most natural seeming voting systems, which is why it's so widespread. I think effects like tending to exclude fringe parties, pushing towards a two party model, and tending to give governing majorities rather than coalitions are all emergent outcomes from the process rather than explicit effects aimed at by those who set up the system. (Which isn't to say they're not good arguments against change now we are where we are, if you happen to think they're good. Personally I prefer PR and will take the rough, like a block of Reform MPs, with the smooth, like everybody's vote being effective at a national level.)
FPTP is the natural way of organising things if you see the local area as the fundamental political unit. If you think MPs should and do look out first and foremost for their area, FPTP is a good fit. If you think MPs should or actually do tend to look out of national or party interests, then it's not a good fit.
Similarly, if you think voters tend to turn up to vote with this or that man or woman in mind, then FPTP seems a good choice. If you think voters turn up with this or that party in mind, then FPTP seems a bad choice.
Personally, I think both the way voters vote and the way MPs behave is much more inclined towards nation and party than local. Which isn't to say that local factors don't get a look in.
In my view, Holyrood has the best of both worlds. It's very proportional to votes cast, but still has constituency MSPs to keep the localism focus. I have multiple MSPs I can go to: a constituency one and several regional ones.
The problem with the Holyrood system of PR is that the party hierarchy choose the order of the list MSPs.Therefore you get the most obsequious loyalists at the top of the list. With STV, numpties are less likely to pick up alternative votes.
I like STV as well, but I still prefer the HR system. Don't forget that in FPTP party management of candidates is still a thing, as we've seen with Labour candidates being deselected recently.
Clacton is a complicated seat it seems. Three parties neck and neck where there is a high motivation for supporters of all other parties to vote tactically against Reform. But tactically for whom? If you generally despise the Tories but want to keep Farage out should you vote tactically for the Conservatives or vote Labour?
As no-one knows what's going on in Clacton, 13 - 1 Labour looks excellent value.
Clacton is a prime example of a chaos election in the making. For all that "Farage will win" took root the polls show that it is pretty close.
Expect a fair number of "no way!" results...
For fans of alternative political histories, it's all turning a bit Fourth Lectern-y for comfort.
Whatever its other merits, FPTP goes bonkers with 4 players.
It is entirely possible that the Greens and Reform between them will take a fifth of the popular vote in England and end up with precisely zero representation in the next House of Commons. It's only a little less likely that Ed Davey could become Leader of the Opposition with half of that. It's bonkers, however you try to justify it.
Clacton is a complicated seat it seems. Three parties neck and neck where there is a high motivation for supporters of all other parties to vote tactically against Reform. But tactically for whom? If you generally despise the Tories but want to keep Farage out should you vote tactically for the Conservatives or vote Labour?
As no-one knows what's going on in Clacton, 13 - 1 Labour looks excellent value.
Clacton is a prime example of a chaos election in the making. For all that "Farage will win" took root the polls show that it is pretty close.
Expect a fair number of "no way!" results...
For fans of alternative political histories, it's all turning a bit Fourth Lectern-y for comfort.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
Are the streets of Clacton “mean”? I’ve not had the opportunity of visiting, but based on nearby Southend I’d guess they are more “bracing” and “filled with the mingled aromas of seaweed and frying chips”.
The streets of Jaywick are pretty mean.
Jaywick sounds like it should be somewhere in Northumberland.
It gives Essex a bad name.
gives?
There are a lot of good things about my county. Including the cricket team. I’m not starry-eyed though; we’ve got our problems.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not wanting to let Farage win is one thing. Voting Tory tactically is another...
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
I respect the disagreement and agree growth has to be the route out. I think if the Tories' experiment with austerity in 2010 had delivered growth you'd be looking at another majority in a couple of weeks.
However, I also disagree on the root causes of our mess. In my view the central reason the Tories deserve to be out of power is their schizophrenic approach to 'balancing the books'; on the one hand perpetuating the nonsense the government borrowing is like putting money on a credit card (hence austerity rather than a sensible, cautious programme of borrowing for investment whilst interest rates were so low in the 2010s), then throwing all that out of the window in a fit of madness with Truss.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
You will presumably believe businesses that say their results have been adversely affected by Brexit then? Rather than dismissing it as remainer whining.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
One reason I hate this government is because I know I'd hate the alternatives, but the Conservatives left no stone unturned in making people vote for the alternatives.
All we're getting is a choice between different brands of dogshit.
I think actually that SKS strategy is very logical.
Rochdale correctly diagnosed this as a "hate" election - which is very depressing, in and of itself - and therefore the best way for SKS to exploit that is for him to (a) make it a referendum on the Conservatives and absolutely nothing else, and, (b) allow anyone who hates them to project onto him whatever they wish, and therefore be careful not to pledge, say, or do anything that might divide those votes.
Of course, that means he either won't be able to do anything much at all in office, if he's interested in maintaining that, or he intends to and he will and he risks becoming unpopular and his tenure short.
Hate, once let loose, can rapidly spin in all directions.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
We have seen more institutional vandalism in the last decade than we have in the previous seven: unlawful prorogation of Parliament; restrictions on the right to vote; the criminalisation of peaceful protest; the rejection of the rule of law; legislating that black is white; and so on.
I dislike all of those things (except the prorogation where I think we just ended up with an odd court decision, but then one’s views on that probably correlated with whether one thought it was a necessary measure to stop Parliament being silly) but I don’t view them as institutional vandalism. The anti-protest stuff is authoritarian rubbish that I am sure Labour will double down on, and we have seen that Labour will end up doing a different form of Rwanda anyway.
In a way you are highlighting all the bits of this Gvt I dislike because they remind me of 97-10.
What I mean by institutional vandalism is that I expect the British Museum to start giving away its treasures to every country with a silly grievance like Greece. I expect wigs to disappear from court rooms, and no one to stop the BBC killing of the Last Night of the Proms. I expect jury trial to be further restricted (as an “efficiency” measure) and I expect Parliament to be rebuilt, and whilst out of Westminster many of the traditions to die.
Actually maybe I won’t vote Labour…. It’ll all happen in the booth. The trouble is I despise this government for any number of other reasons, with Rwanda high on the list.
Isn’t the British Museum chair a Tory, George Osborne? It’s just that the British Museum has been doing a fairly poor job lately of holding on to its treasures, with over 2000 stolen: https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-66626619 If that’s what they’re like with a Tory chair under a Tory government, it’s not exactly a good argument to vote Conservative.
It coulld have been worse, much worse.
Muriel Gray Appointed to the board of trustees of The British Museum in December 2015. She resigned from this role in November 2023.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
One reason I hate this government is because I know I'd hate the alternatives, but the Conservatives left no stone unturned in making people vote for the alternatives.
All we're getting is a choice between different brands of dogshit.
I think actually that SKS strategy is very logical.
Rochdale correctly diagnosed this as a "hate" election - which is very depressing, in and of itself - and therefore the best way for SKS to exploit that is for him to (a) make it a referendum on the Conservatives and absolutely nothing else, and, (b) allow anyone who hates them to project onto him whatever they wish, and therefore be careful not to pledge, say, or do anything that might divide those votes.
Of course, that means he either won't be able to do anything much at all in office, if he's interested in maintaining that, or he intends to and he will and he risks becoming unpopular and his tenure short.
Hate, once let loose, can rapidly spin in all directions.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
None of them will understand what the policy means until it’s enacted:
- All the public schools outside of the elite bracket will be in real trouble and might close. - Their bursaries will end, as will all their support to nearby state schools (e.g. playing fields, swimming pools, and theatres). - The parents will buy up housing stock around good state schools and displace those parents and kids. - The remaining public schools, elite only, will survive and be even less integrated. - The country will be more divided, and social mobility will decrease.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
One reason I hate this government is because I know I'd hate the alternatives, but the Conservatives left no stone unturned in making people vote for the alternatives.
All we're getting is a choice between different brands of dogshit.
What I find nauseating is the whining self-entitlement Conservative politicians have that they can behave as they want but 40% of voters still have an obligation to vote for them to keep out Labour.
The behaviour of Conservative politicians is utterly appalling. And I agree with all Sean's criticism of them as an administration, and much of the rest.
But, in picking a government? What I think is best for me and my family, and the country, over the alternatives?
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
You must have a very unfortunate life if all of those apply to you.
But for other people its a time of full employment, pay rises, interest on their savings, no problems in seeing a doctor or dentist, minimal crime and cheap wine, beer and toothbrushes at supermarkets.
Have you checked out the opinion polls? As to your second paragraph that would appear to apply to approximately 20% of those polled.
There are millions of people who are doing well and who will vote for other parties.
Including many PBers.
And why not - just because things are going well for you does not mean you're obligated to vote for the government, especially a government as tired, sleazy and self-obsessed as this one.
There's no need to make exaggerated claims that everyone is suffering under a collapse of civilisation not seen since the fall of the Roman Empire.
There are problems but there always have been and always will be problems and there's likely fewer now than in many other times or in many other places.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
I would suggest you spend more time looking for another school for your son, rather than keep blaming labour (who aren't yet in power) for a school closing with falling rolls and poor financial management. There are plenty of other independent schools, good ones at that, who will pick up the flotsam and jetsom from failing schools.
Charming.
These are the sorts of people you're getting into bed with if you vote Labour, folks.
...does anybody know the emoji symbol for a handbag?...
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
One reason I hate this government is because I know I'd hate the alternatives, but the Conservatives left no stone unturned in making people vote for the alternatives.
All we're getting is a choice between different brands of dogshit.
What I find nauseating is the whining self-entitlement Conservative politicians have that they can behave as they want but 40% of voters still have an obligation to vote for them to keep out Labour.
The behaviour of Conservative politicians is utterly appalling. And I agree with all Sean's criticism of them as an administration, and much of the rest.
But, in picking a government? What I think is best for me and my family, and the country, over the alternatives?
I'm afraid I still plump for them over Labour.
Which is why we need to change the system and therefore why I am a Liberal Democrat.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
The policy was specifically cited in a letter sent by a school whose management had failed to attract enough pupils over a sustained period of time and who wanted to avoid taking responsibility for that failure. It's what managements do.
Closing down Sure Start centres was a Tory decision taken on the basis that it would not adversely affect their voting demographic. It has had an appalling impact on countless individual young lives and many communities. You had no problem with it.
That's what you're voting for if you vote Tory, folks.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
I would suggest you spend more time looking for another school for your son, rather than keep blaming labour (who aren't yet in power) for a school closing with falling rolls and poor financial management. There are plenty of other independent schools, good ones at that, who will pick up the flotsam and jetsom from failing schools.
Charming.
These are the sorts of people you're getting into bed with if you vote Labour, folks.
It’s the sort of free market thinking that has characterised Conservative ideology for decades. And the sort of sentiment eagerly expressed by Brexiteers every time anyone dared suggest leaving the EU might have real world effects on businesses. (Recall Boris’ now famous riposte when presented by one such complaint).
You're just a tad obsessed by Brexit and the EU, aren't you?
For me, the political arguments overcame the immediate economic ones. Also, our values on this are probably different - you favouring, innately, internationalist governance whereas I prefer national self-determination - but, in the long-term, as the economies diversify and alter, I don't think there's even much in the economic arguments, and they might even be positive.
I've been making these points one way or another on here pretty consistently for the last 8 years. But, like the football, it never ends.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. And Starmer's not even going to deliver equality.
A regular line that's trotted out like it's some sort of killer point, but with zero truth in it.
It's there purely to justify dismissing any opposition to destructive policies.
Destructive policies? What have we had under the Tories? Waiting times for court cases up. NHS waiting lists up. Asylum claims waiting list up. Driving test waiting lists up.
Do you fantasise about being at the dispatch box saying all that?
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
None of them will understand what the policy means until it’s enacted:
- All the public schools outside of the elite bracket will be in real trouble and might close. - Their bursaries will end, as will all their support to nearby state schools (e.g. playing fields, swimming pools, and theatres). - The parents will buy up housing stock around good state schools and displace those parents and kids. - The remaining public schools, elite only, will survive and be even less integrated. - The country will be more divided, and social mobility will decrease.
Project Fear. Alternatively, in a couple of years' time it will all be forgotten. Private schools will absorb some of the costs and, miraculously, most parents will find the bit of extra money. As ever, some private schools will close, and others will open.
Currently, around 7% are privately educated. I'd wager that figure barely changes by the end of this decade.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
You must have a very unfortunate life if all of those apply to you.
But for other people its a time of full employment, pay rises, interest on their savings, no problems in seeing a doctor or dentist, minimal crime and cheap wine, beer and toothbrushes at supermarkets.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that's all personal experience! Full disclosure: teeth are fine, no sexual assault. The rest apply
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
None of them will understand what the policy means until it’s enacted:
- All the public schools outside of the elite bracket will be in real trouble and might close. - Their bursaries will end, as will all their support to nearby state schools (e.g. playing fields, swimming pools, and theatres). - The parents will buy up housing stock around good state schools and displace those parents and kids. - The remaining public schools, elite only, will survive and be even less integrated. - The country will be more divided, and social mobility will decrease.
The entire private schools policy is symbolic. It will have a marginal effect (it'll upset some people a great deal, just not very many) and the money raised will be a drop in the ocean.
It's all part of the minimal risk strategy, in which Labour simultaneously runs on a change message AND promises to change as little as possible.
This won't survive contact with the reality of Government. Then we'll get to find out what they're really like.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
One reason I hate this government is because I know I'd hate the alternatives, but the Conservatives left no stone unturned in making people vote for the alternatives.
All we're getting is a choice between different brands of dogshit.
What I find nauseating is the whining self-entitlement Conservative politicians have that they can behave as they want but 40% of voters still have an obligation to vote for them to keep out Labour.
The behaviour of Conservative politicians is utterly appalling. And I agree with all Sean's criticism of them as an administration, and much of the rest.
But, in picking a government? What I think is best for me and my family, and the country, over the alternatives?
I'm afraid I still plump for them over Labour.
A thorough examination is needed as to why so many Conservative politicians have disgraced themselves.
Until that augean stables of sleaze is cleared out the party will not be fit for government.
And its not a problem which started with Boris either - Osborne's yachting with oligarchs in 2008 was an early illustration of it.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
I would suggest you spend more time looking for another school for your son, rather than keep blaming labour (who aren't yet in power) for a school closing with falling rolls and poor financial management. There are plenty of other independent schools, good ones at that, who will pick up the flotsam and jetsom from failing schools.
Charming.
These are the sorts of people you're getting into bed with if you vote Labour, folks.
It’s the sort of free market thinking that has characterised Conservative ideology for decades. And the sort of sentiment eagerly expressed by Brexiteers every time anyone dared suggest leaving the EU might have real world effects on businesses. (Recall Boris’ now famous riposte when presented by one such complaint).
You're just a tad obsessed by Brexit and the EU, aren't you?
For me, the political arguments overcame the immediate economic ones. Also, our values on this are probably different - you favouring, innately, internationalist governance whereas I prefer national self-determination - but, in the long-term, as the economies diversify and alter, I don't think there's even much in the economic arguments, and they might even be positive.
I've been making these points one way or another on here pretty consistently for the last 8 years. But, like the football, it never ends.
I assume that for Labour the political arguments for applying VAT to school fees also outweigh any immediate economic ones. There is an inconsistency in your attitude to collateral damage between these two issues which is wholly partisan.
A reminder that a. I am a Lib Dem and our policy is not to apply VAT to fees, b. I have a son in a private school.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
None of them will understand what the policy means until it’s enacted:
- All the public schools outside of the elite bracket will be in real trouble and might close. - Their bursaries will end, as will all their support to nearby state schools (e.g. playing fields, swimming pools, and theatres). - The parents will buy up housing stock around good state schools and displace those parents and kids. - The remaining public schools, elite only, will survive and be even less integrated. - The country will be more divided, and social mobility will decrease.
Project Fear. Alternatively, in a couple of years' time it will all be forgotten. Private schools will absorb some of the costs and, miraculously, most parents will find the bit of extra money. As ever, some private schools will close, and others will open.
Currently, around 7% are privately educated. I'd wager that figure barely changes by the end of this decade.
Can you give me a good reason why any of the support to the state sector or bursaries will endure? It was encouraged by the charitable status.
I would never send my child to public school, but I don’t understand why others hate them to much. It’s like private healthcare, I don’t use it but I have no issue with being there: and would have no issues with either attracting tax breaks.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
One reason I hate this government is because I know I'd hate the alternatives, but the Conservatives left no stone unturned in making people vote for the alternatives.
All we're getting is a choice between different brands of dogshit.
This is why Farage is getting 20%.
If there was a box with none of the above on Ballot papers and a rule that if it got most votes a rerun would be had with all candidates and parties standing in the original disqualified, there would be very few elected MPs on July 5th.
Rather than smearing those who vote for Farage and Trump, they should be saying "what are we doing so wrong that millions of ordinary decent people vote for Farage and Trump and thanking their lucky stars that Farage and Trump are not actually the Fascists they claim they claim they are.
With a few more years of arrogant top down Liberal Technocracy, we might well end up witb a charismstic actual fascist appearing. Especially if tax and spend policies continue and the economy implodes (the inevitable result of tax and spend).
The likes of Hitler and PIRA don't con stupid people, they exploit a legitimate monstrous injustice (the treatment of Germany after World War 1 and the post partition treatment of catholics in NI).
If you don't want a fascist government, examine your conscience and get rid of the greviance, rather than doubling down and smearing those with the greviance as gammons and deplorables.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
The policy was specifically cited in a letter sent by a school whose management had failed to attract enough pupils over a sustained period of time and who wanted to avoid taking responsibility for that failure. It's what managements do.
Closing down Sure Start centres was a Tory decision taken on the basis that it would not adversely affect their voting demographic. It has had an appalling impact on countless individual young lives and many communities. You had no problem with it.
That's what you're voting for if you vote Tory, folks.
You haven't a clue what you're talking about. This directly affects my son, his teachers - who will lose their jobs - and our local community, which loses a school that's been here almost 90 years. This is all deeply personal and upsetting locally here, and I've had teachers who are personal friends in tears with us discussing it. Most recently yesterday at Anstey Park where we met up with one for a takeaway coffee and a playdate.
You'll forgive me if I don't have much time for you calling me a liar.
You don't want to admit that any policy Labour proposes, or enacts, can do any damage, whereas you are all too ready to move the spotlight back onto Tory ones where, funnily enough, you are happy to admit they do.
It just shows you up to be a rather-limited partisan stooge, I'm afraid, and your posts on this subject this morning has lowered my respect for you.
Quite funny seeing The Herd going around this morning liking each others posts, particularly the nasty, aggressive and personal ones.
It says so much about them, and the new administration they want to see in office.
Yuk.
Is the herd just anyone who doesn't agree with your narrow world view? I'm not fussed about Labour, and I'm not voting for them. It's just that anyone sane would never vote for 5 more years of the goat rodeo that the current Tory party has become. Is VAT on education really worth 5 more years of the malevolence and incompetence that is on offer?
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Innate tribalism? Mate…take a look at yourself.
You’re privileged and comfortable enough in a Conservative society. Good for you. But for many other people the Tories have been interfering in their families’ lives with disastrous effect. The Windrush generation and anyone with a variable rate mortgage to name but two. They need a break from it. Others actually need government help. It’s because of those two groups, not the small minority unaffected by Tory interference, that it is looking likely your tribe will have a somewhat suboptimal election.
It's word like "privileged", that feature so heavily in the Labour lexicon, which I find so deeply disturbing.
I started off with zero in the bank account post graduation, and I was on an average salary 10 years ago. I only entered the tax trap 2.5 years ago with a big promotion.
It's the thin end of the wedge of a war on aspiration and success that will damage the country, to all of our detriment.
Good for you. I have a similar story. Very similar. We got lucky. But there are very few stories like that which is why you are losing. The Conservative Party is not the party of aspiration. It’s a tax and spend party with a side helping of culture war. It’s not the party of anyone in particular. It’s let down the “Red Wall”, it’s let down the “Blue Wall” so it seeks to find enemies within amongst everyone else to rally them in the absence of delivering any benefits. These are the so-called enemies within, decent taxpayers like me, so called “leftie” lawyers, along with teachers, civil servants (aka “the blob”), judges (aka “Enemies of the People”), nurses, the Windrush Generation, junior doctors (the cause of NHS waiting lists according to Sunak), farmers, Europeans (aka “Citizens of Nowhere”), people with mortgages, North Londoners, and anyone who eats Tofu. What constituency is left for you to target? Pensioners it seems.
You cannot say the Tory Party is a party of aspiration or anyone. It’s a party of a war against anyone it thinks can cause a wedge to win it a few votes a amongst the retired. It’s made so many enemies that most current predictions are not necessary to your party’s advantage. Although you’ve three weeks to turn that round so you’d better get cracking on explaining what a second Sunak term (or first full term) would look like.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
One reason I hate this government is because I know I'd hate the alternatives, but the Conservatives left no stone unturned in making people vote for the alternatives.
All we're getting is a choice between different brands of dogshit.
I think actually that SKS strategy is very logical.
Rochdale correctly diagnosed this as a "hate" election - which is very depressing, in and of itself - and therefore the best way for SKS to exploit that is for him to (a) make it a referendum on the Conservatives and absolutely nothing else, and, (b) allow anyone who hates them to project onto him whatever they wish, and therefore be careful not to pledge, say, or do anything that might divide those votes.
I don’t think hatred of this current Conservative iteration required any stoking by SKS.
They brought it upon themselves. A complete sh*tshow from Boris Johnson, through Liz Truss, to Rishi Sunak.
I'm putting together a list of themed election-night snacks. So far I have:
Labour - Revels, because you don't know what you're going to get. Tories - Crackers, because that's what they've been. Reform - Pork pie. Greens - Lentil crisps. SNP - Shortbread. Plaid Cymru - Welsh cakes.
I'm only missing something for the Liberal Democrats. Any ideas?
I'm putting together a list of themed election-night snacks. So far I have:
Labour - Revels, because you don't know what you're going to get. Tories - Crackers, because that's what they've been. Reform - Pork pie. Greens - Lentil crisps. SNP - Shortbread. Plaid Cymru - Welsh cakes.
I'm only missing something for the Liberal Democrats. Any ideas?
No doubt you'll approve, and maybe have a go yourself, but it's a cowardly and weak way of engaging in political debate, that commands zero respect from me.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not wanting to let Farage win is one thing. Voting Tory tactically is another...
I would.
In fact there are a number of Tory MPs I would vote for simply on their quaity as MPs. One is standing in my neighbouring constituency of Cheltenham.
No doubt you'll approve, and maybe have a go yourself, but it's a cowardly and weak way of engaging in political debate, that commands zero respect from me.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
Yes, the economic situation is not great - and Covid-19, Ukraine and the deteriorating geopolitical situation has much to answer for that - but funding public services better depends on economic growth, not ideology.
I think Labour will deliver the latter but not the former. You clearly disagree, and that's fine.
One reason I hate this government is because I know I'd hate the alternatives, but the Conservatives left no stone unturned in making people vote for the alternatives.
All we're getting is a choice between different brands of dogshit.
I think actually that SKS strategy is very logical.
Rochdale correctly diagnosed this as a "hate" election - which is very depressing, in and of itself - and therefore the best way for SKS to exploit that is for him to (a) make it a referendum on the Conservatives and absolutely nothing else, and, (b) allow anyone who hates them to project onto him whatever they wish, and therefore be careful not to pledge, say, or do anything that might divide those votes.
I don’t think hatred of this current Conservative iteration required any stoking by SKS.
They brought it upon themselves. A complete sh*tshow from Boris Johnson, through Liz Truss, to Rishi Sunak.
I'm putting together a list of themed election-night snacks. So far I have:
Labour - Revels, because you don't know what you're going to get. Tories - Crackers, because that's what they've been. Reform - Pork pie. Greens - Lentil crisps. SNP - Shortbread. Plaid Cymru - Welsh cakes.
I'm only missing something for the Liberal Democrats. Any ideas?
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Innate tribalism? Mate…take a look at yourself.
You’re privileged and comfortable enough in a Conservative society. Good for you. But for many other people the Tories have been interfering in their families’ lives with disastrous effect. The Windrush generation and anyone with a variable rate mortgage to name but two. They need a break from it. Others actually need government help. It’s because of those two groups, not the small minority unaffected by Tory interference, that it is looking likely your tribe will have a somewhat suboptimal election.
It's word like "privileged", that feature so heavily in the Labour lexicon, which I find so deeply disturbing.
I started off with zero in the bank account post graduation, and I was on an average salary 10 years ago. I only entered the tax trap 2.5 years ago with a big promotion.
It's the thin end of the wedge of a war on aspiration and success that will damage the country, to all of our detriment.
Good for you. I have a similar story. Very similar. We got lucky. But there are very few stories like that which is why you are losing. The Conservative Party is not the party of aspiration. It’s a tax and spend party with a side helping of culture war. It’s not the party of anyone in particular. It’s let down the “Red Wall”, it’s let down the “Blue Wall” so it seeks to find enemies within amongst everyone else to rally them in the absence of delivering any benefits. These are the so-called enemies within, decent taxpayers like me, so called “leftie” lawyers, along with teachers, civil servants (aka “the blob”), judges (aka “Enemies of the People”), nurses, the Windrush Generation, junior doctors (the cause of NHS waiting lists according to Sunak), farmers, Europeans (aka “Citizens of Nowhere”), people with mortgages, North Londoners, and anyone who eats Tofu. What constituency is left for you to target? Pensioners it seems.
You cannot say the Tory Party is a party of aspiration or anyone. It’s a party of a war against anyone it thinks can cause a wedge to win it a few votes a amongst the retired. It’s made so many enemies that most current predictions are not necessary to your party’s advantage. Although you’ve three weeks to turn that round so you’d better get cracking on explaining what a second Sunak term (or first full term) would look like.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
The policy was specifically cited in a letter sent by a school whose management had failed to attract enough pupils over a sustained period of time and who wanted to avoid taking responsibility for that failure. It's what managements do.
Closing down Sure Start centres was a Tory decision taken on the basis that it would not adversely affect their voting demographic. It has had an appalling impact on countless individual young lives and many communities. You had no problem with it.
That's what you're voting for if you vote Tory, folks.
You haven't a clue what you're talking about. This directly affects my son, his teachers - who will lose their jobs - and our local community, which loses a school that's been here almost 90 years. This is all deeply personal and upsetting locally here, and I've had teachers who are personal friends in tears with us discussing it. Most recently yesterday at Anstey Park where we met up with one for a takeaway coffee and a playdate.
You'll forgive me if I don't have much time for you calling me a liar.
You don't want to admit that any policy Labour proposes, or enacts, can do any damage, whereas you are all too ready to move the spotlight back onto Tory ones where, funnily enough, you are happy to admit they do.
It just shows you up to be a rather-limited partisan stooge, I'm afraid, and your posts on this subject this morning has lowered my respect for you.
I don't really understand why Starmer is persisting with this VAT on schools policy. It is a red bone to the most bigoted part of his electorate, one that he dosen't need to win, and one that will cost the taxpayer far more than it saves if even a small portion of public schoolchildren switch to the state sector.
If you don't want public schools then nationalise them and order them to admit pupils by ability not wealth.
The same goes with certain so called comprehensives with exclusive catchment areas. They in reality select by wealth (the wealth needed to move into the catchment area).
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Many would have had the same blindness towards what the Tories are like when voting for them in 2019, especially as Johnson was good at talking up the 'levelling up' fiction. They then got a rude awakening with the crap we've all had to put up with since. You're just describing the natural cycle of our two-party system, fed by our remarkable ability to show collective amnesia.
As for your last sentence: - Inflation and mortgage rates over the past year or so? - Rotting teeth because there are no dentists left? - Spending all morning on the phone only to be told there are no appointments left for my sick one-year old? - Waiting four years for a sexual assault case to be heard? - Having to teach kids who have EHCPs that say they can only succeed in school with one-to-one support and yet who have no funding for that one-to-one support - etc etc etc
If this is what leaving me and my family alone looks like, I'll take my chances with the other lot, thanks.
You must have a very unfortunate life if all of those apply to you.
But for other people its a time of full employment, pay rises, interest on their savings, no problems in seeing a doctor or dentist, minimal crime and cheap wine, beer and toothbrushes at supermarkets.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that's all personal experience! Full disclosure: teeth are fine, no sexual assault. The rest apply
Just to add I am definitely one of the privileged ones. I work two jobs (you lot are currently distracting me from my team of exam markers who can't work out how to mark a grade 9 vectors GCSE question, the dolts), but am lucky enough to spend Fridays with my kids rather than at school, hence saving a day of childcare. I get to spend my marking money on a week skydiving in Spain in October (just affixing my helmet for the impending barrage from @topping for my rank hypocrisy on climate change) so can't complain that I'm on the breadline. I've got some savings too.
On a broader point you are absolutely right to challenge the tendency to catastrophise the present situation; many, nay most, are fine. But I do see lots of the real world through my students at school and for a significant minority (far more than a decade ago) life ain't pretty right now.
I'm putting together a list of themed election-night snacks. So far I have:
Labour - Revels, because you don't know what you're going to get. Tories - Crackers, because that's what they've been. Reform - Pork pie. Greens - Lentil crisps. SNP - Shortbread. Plaid Cymru - Welsh cakes.
I'm only missing something for the Liberal Democrats. Any ideas?
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
The policy was specifically cited in a letter sent by a school whose management had failed to attract enough pupils over a sustained period of time and who wanted to avoid taking responsibility for that failure. It's what managements do.
Closing down Sure Start centres was a Tory decision taken on the basis that it would not adversely affect their voting demographic. It has had an appalling impact on countless individual young lives and many communities. You had no problem with it.
That's what you're voting for if you vote Tory, folks.
You haven't a clue what you're talking about. This directly affects my son, his teachers - who will lose their jobs - and our local community, which loses a school that's been here almost 90 years. This is all deeply personal and upsetting locally here, and I've had teachers who are personal friends in tears with us discussing it. Most recently yesterday at Anstey Park where we met up with one for a takeaway coffee and a playdate.
You'll forgive me if I don't have much time for you calling me a liar.
You don't want to admit that any policy Labour proposes, or enacts, can do any damage, whereas you are all too ready to move the spotlight back onto Tory ones where, funnily enough, you are happy to admit they do.
It just shows you up to be a rather-limited partisan stooge, I'm afraid, and your posts on this subject this morning has lowered my respect for you.
I don't really understand why Starmer is persisting with this VAT on schools policy. It is a red bone to the most bigoted part of his electorate, one that he dosen't need to win, and one that will cost the taxpayer far more than it saves if even a small portion of public schoolchildren switch to the state sector.
If you don't want public schools then nationalise them and order them to admit pupils by ability not wealth.
The same goes with certain so called comprehensives with exclusive catchment areas. They in reality select by wealth (the wealth needed to move into the catchment area).
It’s a keep the members and door knockers happy policy - one that is finally being implemented after sitting in the manifestos for 30+ years
No doubt you'll approve, and maybe have a go yourself, but it's a cowardly and weak way of engaging in political debate, that commands zero respect from me.
But you've got to suck it up, like you used to tell Remainers. The Tories ain't getting back in and you'll go mad carrying in the way you do. For your own wellbeing, you need to let it go.
Something very odd. Despite Labour having a policy of VAT on private school fees for several years, and the likelihood that they would win the next election, the number of private schools and pupils has been increasing:
PB's pro-vat-on-schools contingent told us a school closing can't be due to VAT because Labour haven't been elected yet. Can't have it both ways.
The Guardian is simply pandering to the prejudices of its own readers, who are predictably lapping it up.
It tells you nothing of the nationality of such pupils or what schools are increasing their rolls.
It's the small, marginal, independent schools that will be hit by this, and indeed are already being hit, not the Etons and Winchesters where its perfectly possible they modify their models and continue to expand and take a larger overseas contingent.
Just like our universities do.
Kings Canterbury had to make redundancies because the Chinese students suddenly stopped coming. Many reasons for that but VAT isn’t one of them. I’m no tribal Labour supporter but at least they care about parents who want their kids to be better off than them. The Tories have given up because their electorate’s kids left home 10 or more years ago.
Quite funny seeing The Herd going around this morning liking each others posts, particularly the nasty, aggressive and personal ones.
It says so much about them, and the new administration they want to see in office.
Yuk.
You have this weird bee in your bonnet about people liking posts. It's not the first time you've commented bitterly on it. I don't understand it.
We used to have Only Fools and Horses, Yes Minister and Fawlty Towers for comedy. After 14 years of Tory rule all we are left with is quite funny when a few nerdy politicos like another nerdy politicos post that a different nerdy politico dislikes on an obscure website....
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
I would suggest you spend more time looking for another school for your son, rather than keep blaming labour (who aren't yet in power) for a school closing with falling rolls and poor financial management. There are plenty of other independent schools, good ones at that, who will pick up the flotsam and jetsom from failing schools.
Charming.
These are the sorts of people you're getting into bed with if you vote Labour, folks.
It’s the sort of free market thinking that has characterised Conservative ideology for decades. And the sort of sentiment eagerly expressed by Brexiteers every time anyone dared suggest leaving the EU might have real world effects on businesses. (Recall Boris’ now famous riposte when presented by one such complaint).
You're just a tad obsessed by Brexit and the EU, aren't you?
For me, the political arguments overcame the immediate economic ones. Also, our values on this are probably different - you favouring, innately, internationalist governance whereas I prefer national self-determination - but, in the long-term, as the economies diversify and alter, I don't think there's even much in the economic arguments, and they might even be positive.
I've been making these points one way or another on here pretty consistently for the last 8 years. But, like the football, it never ends.
I assume that for Labour the political arguments for applying VAT to school fees also outweigh any immediate economic ones. There is an inconsistency in your attitude to collateral damage between these two issues which is wholly partisan.
A reminder that a. I am a Lib Dem and our policy is not to apply VAT to fees, b. I have a son in a private school.
So, unless I agree with you I'm inconsistent, right?
It's a real stretch to try and link education policy to Brexit, but good on you for trying.
Cybernats update! I am kept entertained by some of the comments that get posted. People supporting a party who openly advocate inward migration to Scotland seem to be unhappy with my funny accent. I am not for Scotland and should go home. And yet the same people are quite happy with their candidate Seamus Logan with his funny accent. He shouldn't go home.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
No, you haven't. But you want to believe you have been and that is fine. I just wish more people who are apoplectic about VAT on private school fees had cared as much about the cuts to Sure Start centres the government they supported inflicted on so many. Maybe a lot of young lives would have turned out a lot better than they have.
Er, yes I have. The policy was specifically cited in the letter issued to parents and teachers by the Board of Trustees as a key factor in dropping the academic roll for next year. The school exists in an area that's not particularly wealthy, and a 20% price demand shock was one that local parents simply couldn't afford; it was enough to tip the school into bankruptcy.
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
The policy was specifically cited in a letter sent by a school whose management had failed to attract enough pupils over a sustained period of time and who wanted to avoid taking responsibility for that failure. It's what managements do.
Closing down Sure Start centres was a Tory decision taken on the basis that it would not adversely affect their voting demographic. It has had an appalling impact on countless individual young lives and many communities. You had no problem with it.
That's what you're voting for if you vote Tory, folks.
You haven't a clue what you're talking about. This directly affects my son, his teachers - who will lose their jobs - and our local community, which loses a school that's been here almost 90 years. This is all deeply personal and upsetting locally here, and I've had teachers who are personal friends in tears with us discussing it. Most recently yesterday at Anstey Park where we met up with one for a takeaway coffee and a playdate.
You'll forgive me if I don't have much time for you calling me a liar.
You don't want to admit that any policy Labour proposes, or enacts, can do any damage, whereas you are all too ready to move the spotlight back onto Tory ones where, funnily enough, you are happy to admit they do.
It just shows you up to be a rather-limited partisan stooge, I'm afraid, and your posts on this subject this morning has lowered my respect for you.
I don't really understand why Starmer is persisting with this VAT on schools policy. It is a red bone to the most bigoted part of his electorate, one that he dosen't need to win, and one that will cost the taxpayer far more than it saves if even a small portion of public schoolchildren switch to the state sector.
If you don't want public schools then nationalise them and order them to admit pupils by ability not wealth.
The same goes with certain so called comprehensives with exclusive catchment areas. They in reality select by wealth (the wealth needed to move into the catchment area).
It’s a keep the members and door knockers happy policy - one that is finally being implemented after sitting in the manifestos for 30+ years
While trolling Telegraph Readers is enormous fun, it is not good policy and will likely bite them on the backside if they do actually implement it.
How many Labour/LibDem voters will want to risk letting in Farage as their MP? If there is one seat for tactical voting to support the Tory candidate, this is it...
Not really. Green and LD could deliver for Labour.
The problem however is the media are generating their scoop for the 4th July by cosying up to Farage. Isn't he on Kuenssberg today?
Even then, a Labour win would depend on the Con/Ref split being spot-on. Are there enough Conservatives prepared to trek out to Clacton to strangle Reform at late middle age?
But, objectively, Farage taking just enough votes to let Labour in would, objectively, be very very funny.
Why? Its just the entire election writ small.
Labour would probably have won anyway, it is time for a change and the Tories are exhausted, but the massacre will be a result of Reform/Farage splitting the centre right vote in 2. I think Farage is ok with that; he just needs someone to rail against and a dominant Labour government will do fine. Whether Reform voters have thought this through, however, is another matter.
If you (a) like Reform a lot and/or want an opportunity to vent and (b) think Lab and Con are two sides of the same coin, then what is there left to think about?
For all the many faults of the present government, and they are legion, those on the right who think that a Labour government is just going to be more of the same are in for a disappointing decade. They may not recognise their country when it is over.
Yep, many have simply forgotten what a Labour government means.
I think a fair few newer voters on the soft left will be surprised at the authoritarianism. The Labour Party has never pretended to be Liberal. You can see the start of it in the promise to bring back ASBOs. I think I am going to hold my nose and vote Labour but those will be the things that make be regret it. There will also inevitably be institutional vandalism through a lack of a sense of history.
All of that.
The leitmotif is its innate tribalism and desire to reshape and reorder society through regulation, taxation, nannying, authoritarianism, into whatever it pleases. It's happy to use bullying and threats to achieve this and to restructure institutions to stack the deck in its favour. It *will* interfere into your everyday life and pressure you to comply in your personal and professional life or there will be financial and legal consequences for you. It won't brook much dissent.
It's why I'm sticking with the Conservatives. For all their faults, they leave me and my family alone.
Of course they do. They look after their own. You are not affected by the stuff they do to other people.
And, I've already been affected by the stuff that Labour do to other people.
Hell would freeze over before I'd vote for them.
I would suggest you spend more time looking for another school for your son, rather than keep blaming labour (who aren't yet in power) for a school closing with falling rolls and poor financial management. There are plenty of other independent schools, good ones at that, who will pick up the flotsam and jetsom from failing schools.
Charming.
These are the sorts of people you're getting into bed with if you vote Labour, folks.
It’s the sort of free market thinking that has characterised Conservative ideology for decades. And the sort of sentiment eagerly expressed by Brexiteers every time anyone dared suggest leaving the EU might have real world effects on businesses. (Recall Boris’ now famous riposte when presented by one such complaint).
You're just a tad obsessed by Brexit and the EU, aren't you?
For me, the political arguments overcame the immediate economic ones. Also, our values on this are probably different - you favouring, innately, internationalist governance whereas I prefer national self-determination - but, in the long-term, as the economies diversify and alter, I don't think there's even much in the economic arguments, and they might even be positive.
I've been making these points one way or another on here pretty consistently for the last 8 years. But, like the football, it never ends.
Also for @southamobserver etc arguing the opposite side on VAT for school fees, policies have consequences and it is unhelpful to pretend they don't. At the margin some private schools will close because of the VAT measure and some childrens' education will be disrupted. If you are in favour of the VAT measure you need to argue that it's worth it in the interests of fairness.
Likewise Brexiteers need to argue less trade, less investment, less prosperity and fewer personal freedoms is worth it for reasons that make sense to them.
No doubt you'll approve, and maybe have a go yourself, but it's a cowardly and weak way of engaging in political debate, that commands zero respect from me.
But you've got to suck it up, like you used to tell Remainers. The Tories ain't getting back in and you'll go mad carrying in the way you do. For your own wellbeing, you need to let it go.
My own wellbeing would be greatly enhanced by people like you avoiding snide personal attacks on the welfare of my family because it's politically convenient for you to stick the boot in.
So … leaving aside partisanship, in so far as that’s possible. I reckon:
- The Conservatives will do better than their current polling c. 25%, perhaps up to 27%. They will still be the main Opposition with 100+ seats. Maybe 150+
- Labour will do worse than 1997 on votes (37-39%, maybe sneaking above 40%) but better on seats. c.400+
- The LibDems will do well on seats: 40+
- Reform will underperform: 11-12%. Potentially 0 seats.
- The Greens won’t get above 5%. Remember their highest ever is 3.8%
Cybernats update! I am kept entertained by some of the comments that get posted. People supporting a party who openly advocate inward migration to Scotland seem to be unhappy with my funny accent. I am not for Scotland and should go home. And yet the same people are quite happy with their candidate Seamus Logan with his funny accent. He shouldn't go home.
Are the SNP looking to build a one party state?
You're seeing first hand the dark heart of (Scottish) nationalism.
It is why it must be rejected and everyone in Scotland should vote tactically to stop the SNP.
I'm putting together a list of themed election-night snacks. So far I have:
Labour - Revels, because you don't know what you're going to get. Tories - Crackers, because that's what they've been. Reform - Pork pie. Greens - Lentil crisps. SNP - Shortbread. Plaid Cymru - Welsh cakes.
I'm only missing something for the Liberal Democrats. Any ideas?
No doubt you'll approve, and maybe have a go yourself, but it's a cowardly and weak way of engaging in political debate, that commands zero respect from me.
Britain has always had a 'crab bucket' mentality, i.e. when one crab tries to escape, the other crabs prevent him, by dragging him back into the bucket.
Contrast and compare that to the US, which has an aspirational mentality. Get filthy rich, send your kids to the most expensive school in the country, buy a big gaudy McMansion with all the trimmings, whatever floats your boat. Buy a boat too, come to think of it.
Whereas in the UK we sneer, and that sneer can come from those above or below you on the pecking order. "A bit of a social climber" "Such a tacky house" "Buys his own furniture, don't you know" etc.
The idea is that everyone is expected to know their place. And British people _hate_ people who don't know their place. Because it reminds them that they, too, don't have to accept their place, but are too pathetic to do anything about it.
Comments
Perhaps it really is all about Change.
A certain kind of person doesn’t like the way things are changing. They call it ‘woke’ but really it’s about change.
They are like Gaffer Gamgee. “I can't abide change, especially change for the worst.”
But for other people its a time of full employment, pay rises, interest on their savings, no problems in seeing a doctor or dentist, minimal crime and cheap wine, beer and toothbrushes at supermarkets.
Not a dig at you personally by the way, many others see the world in the same way. Indeed I probably did when I was younger and more naive
90% of Ukrainian drones are manufactured in Ukraine. The lack of artillery ammunition while waiting for Congress to approve more support did hurt Ukraine, but they aren't entirely dependent on external support, and their own drones may well be a large part of their eventual victory.
Perhaps the Euro elections and now the snap French election mean they’re focusing efforts elsewhere.
Also why Labour if they’re ruthless enough will be able to use scare tactics against the Tories in 2028 even if they themselves are unpopular by then. All they need to do is remind people of the 2019-2024 parliament.
These are the sorts of people you're getting into bed with if you vote Labour, folks.
But, that does not give the current government a pass for all of its unforced errors.
It is not in manifesto iirc.
Massive for many families if actually true.
Don't forget that in FPTP party management of candidates is still a thing, as we've seen with Labour candidates being deselected recently.
And due to the instability, was succeeded by another election, with the Greens surging as well : https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fifth-Lectern-After-Fourth-happens-ebook/dp/B00PNNYRGM/
I know you want to tell me differently. It's much easier for you to dismiss it because otherwise you might have to engage with it, which would mean admitting that a Labour policy is already doing real damage only weeks before a GE.
However, your last two sentences are so very telling because there the mask slips and you try and flip it around with a bit of "whataboutery"; deep down, buried beneath your cognitive dissonance, you know that's it.
But, as far as you're concerned, an eye for an eye.
Again, that's what you're voting for if you vote Labour, folks.
I’m not starry-eyed though; we’ve got our problems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF-EB97Halg&ab_channel=TheSun
On daily Ukrainian claimed losses:
https://index.minfin.com.ua/en/russian-invading/casualties/
However, I also disagree on the root causes of our mess. In my view the central reason the Tories deserve to be out of power is their schizophrenic approach to 'balancing the books'; on the one hand perpetuating the nonsense the government borrowing is like putting money on a credit card (hence austerity rather than a sensible, cautious programme of borrowing for investment whilst interest rates were so low in the 2010s), then throwing all that out of the window in a fit of madness with Truss.
Rochdale correctly diagnosed this as a "hate" election - which is very depressing, in and of itself - and therefore the best way for SKS to exploit that is for him to (a) make it a referendum on the Conservatives and absolutely nothing else, and, (b) allow anyone who hates them to project onto him whatever they wish, and therefore be careful not to pledge, say, or do anything that might divide those votes.
Of course, that means he either won't be able to do anything much at all in office, if he's interested in maintaining that, or he intends to and he will and he risks becoming unpopular and his tenure short.
Hate, once let loose, can rapidly spin in all directions.
Muriel Gray
Appointed to the board of trustees of The British Museum in December 2015. She resigned from this role in November 2023.
- All the public schools outside of the elite bracket will be in real trouble and might close.
- Their bursaries will end, as will all their support to nearby state schools (e.g. playing fields, swimming pools, and theatres).
- The parents will buy up housing stock around good state schools and displace those parents and kids.
- The remaining public schools, elite only, will survive and be even less integrated.
- The country will be more divided, and social mobility will decrease.
Laters...
But, in picking a government? What I think is best for me and my family, and the country, over the alternatives?
I'm afraid I still plump for them over Labour.
Including many PBers.
And why not - just because things are going well for you does not mean you're obligated to vote for the government, especially a government as tired, sleazy and self-obsessed as this one.
There's no need to make exaggerated claims that everyone is suffering under a collapse of civilisation not seen since the fall of the Roman Empire.
There are problems but there always have been and always will be problems and there's likely fewer now than in many other times or in many other places.
Closing down Sure Start centres was a Tory decision taken on the basis that it would not adversely affect their voting demographic. It has had an appalling impact on countless individual young lives and many communities. You had no problem with it.
That's what you're voting for if you vote Tory, folks.
For me, the political arguments overcame the immediate economic ones. Also, our values on this are probably different - you favouring, innately, internationalist governance whereas I prefer national self-determination - but, in the long-term, as the economies diversify and alter, I don't think there's even much in the economic arguments, and they might even be positive.
I've been making these points one way or another on here pretty consistently for the last 8 years. But, like the football, it never ends.
Alternatively, in a couple of years' time it will all be forgotten. Private schools will absorb some of the costs and, miraculously, most parents will find the bit of extra money. As ever, some private schools will close, and others will open.
Currently, around 7% are privately educated. I'd wager that figure barely changes by the end of this decade.
It says so much about them, and the new administration they want to see in office.
Yuk.
It's all part of the minimal risk strategy, in which Labour simultaneously runs on a change message AND promises to change as little as possible.
This won't survive contact with the reality of Government. Then we'll get to find out what they're really like.
Until that augean stables of sleaze is cleared out the party will not be fit for government.
And its not a problem which started with Boris either - Osborne's yachting with oligarchs in 2008 was an early illustration of it.
A reminder that a. I am a Lib Dem and our policy is not to apply VAT to fees, b. I have a son in a private school.
I would never send my child to public school, but I don’t understand why others hate them to much. It’s like private healthcare, I don’t use it but I have no issue with being there: and would have no issues with either attracting tax breaks.
Personal and aggressive works both ways you know
Unbelievable
https://news.sky.com/story/missouri-woman-who-spent-43-years-behind-bars-has-murder-conviction-overturned-13153817
If there was a box with none of the above on Ballot papers and a rule that if it got most votes a rerun would be had with all candidates and parties standing in the original disqualified, there would be very few elected MPs on July 5th.
Rather than smearing those who vote for Farage and Trump, they should be saying "what are we doing so wrong that millions of ordinary decent people vote for Farage and Trump and thanking their lucky stars that Farage and Trump are not actually the Fascists they claim they claim they are.
With a few more years of arrogant top down Liberal Technocracy, we might well end up witb a charismstic actual fascist appearing. Especially if tax and spend policies continue and the economy implodes (the inevitable result of tax and spend).
The likes of Hitler and PIRA don't con stupid people, they exploit a legitimate monstrous injustice (the treatment of Germany after World War 1 and the post partition treatment of catholics in NI).
If you don't want a fascist government, examine your conscience and get rid of the greviance, rather than doubling down and smearing those with the greviance as gammons and deplorables.
You'll forgive me if I don't have much time for you calling me a liar.
You don't want to admit that any policy Labour proposes, or enacts, can do any damage, whereas you are all too ready to move the spotlight back onto Tory ones where, funnily enough, you are happy to admit they do.
It just shows you up to be a rather-limited partisan stooge, I'm afraid, and your posts on this subject this morning has lowered my respect for you.
I'm not fussed about Labour, and I'm not voting for them. It's just that anyone sane would never vote for 5 more years of the goat rodeo that the current Tory party has become. Is VAT on education really worth 5 more years of the malevolence and incompetence that is on offer?
You cannot say the Tory Party is a party of aspiration or anyone. It’s a party of a war against anyone it thinks can cause a wedge to win it a few votes a amongst the retired. It’s made so many enemies that most current predictions are not necessary to your party’s advantage. Although you’ve three weeks to turn that round so you’d better get cracking on explaining what a second Sunak term (or first full term) would look like.
They brought it upon themselves. A complete sh*tshow from Boris Johnson, through Liz Truss, to Rishi Sunak.
Labour - Revels, because you don't know what you're going to get.
Tories - Crackers, because that's what they've been.
Reform - Pork pie.
Greens - Lentil crisps.
SNP - Shortbread.
Plaid Cymru - Welsh cakes.
I'm only missing something for the Liberal Democrats. Any ideas?
No doubt you'll approve, and maybe have a go yourself, but it's a cowardly and weak way of engaging in political debate, that commands zero respect from me.
In fact there are a number of Tory MPs I would vote for simply on their quaity as MPs. One is standing in my neighbouring constituency of Cheltenham.
If you don't want public schools then nationalise them and order them to admit pupils by ability not wealth.
The same goes with certain so called comprehensives with exclusive catchment areas. They in reality select by wealth (the wealth needed to move into the catchment area).
On a broader point you are absolutely right to challenge the tendency to catastrophise the present situation; many, nay most, are fine. But I do see lots of the real world through my students at school and for a significant minority (far more than a decade ago) life ain't pretty right now.
Let me be clear: going after my son is off limits. And implying he's "flotsam and jetsam" is off limits.
Have a go at me if you like, but do that again and I'll be reporting you to the Mods.
It's a real stretch to try and link education policy to Brexit, but good on you for trying.
Are the SNP looking to build a one party state?
Likewise Brexiteers need to argue less trade, less investment, less prosperity and fewer personal freedoms is worth it for reasons that make sense to them.
Just a tip.
- The Conservatives will do better than their current polling c. 25%, perhaps up to 27%. They will still be the main Opposition with 100+ seats. Maybe 150+
- Labour will do worse than 1997 on votes (37-39%, maybe sneaking above 40%) but better on seats. c.400+
- The LibDems will do well on seats: 40+
- Reform will underperform: 11-12%. Potentially 0 seats.
- The Greens won’t get above 5%. Remember their highest ever is 3.8%
I could be utterly wrong
It is why it must be rejected and everyone in Scotland should vote tactically to stop the SNP.
Contrast and compare that to the US, which has an aspirational mentality. Get filthy rich, send your kids to the most expensive school in the country, buy a big gaudy McMansion with all the trimmings, whatever floats your boat. Buy a boat too, come to think of it.
Whereas in the UK we sneer, and that sneer can come from those above or below you on the pecking order. "A bit of a social climber" "Such a tacky house" "Buys his own furniture, don't you know" etc.
The idea is that everyone is expected to know their place. And British people _hate_ people who don't know their place. Because it reminds them that they, too, don't have to accept their place, but are too pathetic to do anything about it.