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Kaboom! Is Sunak the Tory David Lloyd George? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,605
    dixiedean said:

    Attention will now turn to the Reform manifesto.
    Will it contain the eyewatering spending cuts that Tice proposed?
    Along with the slashing of NHS waiting lists?
    And tax cuts?
    Paid for by a cull of Diversity Officers?

    Is this not basically Trumpish - reason does not apply.


  • Techne poll
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Cicero said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    New-fangled chart on Wikipedia:

    image

    Hahah. If you extrapolate those trends (absurd but fun) Labour end up about 33%, Reform end up around 26%, the Tories and LDs both get about 15%

    Baxtered:

    Labour: 375
    Reform: 127
    LDs: 67
    Con: 39

    Starmer is PM. Farage is the LOTO

    By the election of 2028 the rump of the Tories have been absorbed into Reform and Farage becomes PM
    Reform have no real ground game, so I think your orgasmic reaction is misplaced. The Lib Dems are fighting their targets intensely. Reform have candidates that will explode and have no real target strategy beyond Clacton and Ashfield. IF you believe those numbers, then by all means go all in, but if I were you I would prepare to be very disappointed.
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    New-fangled chart on Wikipedia:

    image

    Hahah. If you extrapolate those trends (absurd but fun) Labour end up about 33%, Reform end up around 26%, the Tories and LDs both get about 15%

    Baxtered:

    Labour: 375
    Reform: 127
    LDs: 67
    Con: 39

    Starmer is PM. Farage is the LOTO

    By the election of 2028 the rump of the Tories have been absorbed into Reform and Farage becomes PM
    Reform have no real ground game, so I think your orgasmic reaction is misplaced. The Lib Dems are fighting their targets intensely. Reform have candidates that will explode and have no real target strategy beyond Clacton and Ashfield. IF you believe those numbers, then by all means go
    all in, but if I were you I would prepare to be very disappointed.
    Did you miss the *absurd but fun" bit?
    Its certainly absurd, you have to have some grounding in reality, otherwise you end up like Grant Shapps, and who wants that?
    Well, the reality is: Reform have just overtaken the Tories, and this with one of the most respected pollsters out there. THAT is the reality
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,941
    Better hair from Penny this evening. Still the worst on the panel, however.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,554
    MattW said:

    Spotted my first placard this morning - Ashfield Independent.

    Chatting to a friend tonight where his street is blighted by a traveller take-over-and-develop-land-illegally problem. It's a genuine problem, of which I will say no more.

    He says his street is pretty much a Reform zone, since Lee Anderson has been giving them attention even now.

    Just popping out for an evening cycle around a couple of estates to see what placards are around.

    First canvass attempt today. Yellow badge so door closed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,613
    GIN1138 said:

    Have to admit, this poll is a genuine KABOOOOOM poll - Doesn't happen very often, so savour it!

    Are we truly living in an era of the end of one major party and rise of another? Probably not. But the question reasonably being raised is exciting in itself.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,532



    Techne poll

    Not bad for SKS :)
  • Clutch_BromptonClutch_Brompton Posts: 735
    edited June 13
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    LoL

    Lab: 37% (-1)
    Reform: 19% (+2)
    Con: 18% (nc)
    Lib Dem: 14% (-1)
    Green: 7 (-1)
    SNP: 3 (+1)
    Plaid: 1 (nc)
    Other: 2 (+1)

    Loving the 37% landslide mainly because i am on Lab less than 12.9m votes but also because democracy is fooked

    SKS fans please explain
    YouGov is now polling using the candidates by name and party in the voters constituency. I know because I was in this poll (as an Undecided). So increasingly we are seeing a sharpening of Tactical Voting.

    You poll as undecided? I never knew you were a Tory!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,331
    mwadams said:

    Definitely a trend now.

    But SKS's personal ratings are still going up, intriguing.

    Tactical voting.
    Yes. The LDs are getting a bit more visibility, and Labour seem secure enough (and the election near enough) for Lab supporters in appropriate constituencies to start telling pollsters that they *will* be voting LD rather than *hypothetically* voting Labour.
    The dead giveaway in this poll is that 44% of Liberal voters want a Labour Super-Majority.

    But, instead, several PBers seem to be saying, explicitly or implicitly, that Labour should be more worried than the Tories
    about the Faragasm.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,630
    Andy_JS said:

    LoL

    Lab: 37% (-1)
    Reform: 19% (+2)
    Con: 18% (nc)
    Lib Dem: 14% (-1)
    Green: 7 (-1)
    SNP: 3 (+1)
    Plaid: 1 (nc)
    Other: 2 (+1)

    Loving the 37% landslide mainly because i am on Lab less than 12.9m votes but also because democracy is fooked

    SKS fans please explain
    Starting to look like the more people see of SKS the less they are likely to vote Lab.

    Early days but I am currently ecstatic with my GE2024 bets

    And indeed SKS fans please explain why Lab have gone from 46 to 37 in a week with YG

    Will end up on 10% at that rate!!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,390
    tlg86 said:

    I reckon Labour will be more worried by Reform than the Tories.

    I really don't think so! Being 19 points ahead with 3 weeks to go is not a worrying position.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,546
    edited June 13



    Techne poll

    And breathe...

    Edit: that poll is dated tomorrow. Do they have one for the 4th July? Could save a lot of angst for everyone.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,613

    mwadams said:

    Definitely a trend now.

    But SKS's personal ratings are still going up, intriguing.

    Tactical voting.
    Yes. The LDs are getting a bit more visibility, and Labour seem secure enough (and the election near enough) for Lab supporters in appropriate constituencies to start telling pollsters that they *will* be voting LD rather than *hypothetically* voting Labour.
    The dead giveaway in this poll is that 44% of Liberal voters want a Labour Super-Majority.

    But, instead, several PBers seem to be saying, explicitly or implicitly, that Labour should be more worried than the Tories
    about the Faragasm.
    People say that about all the various Farage entities. Has it ever been true?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,672

    TimS said:

    I think Reform are now (temporarily) taking voters from both Tories and Labour.

    This is the mid campaign version of the Cleggasm. They’ll fall back again in due course.

    Clegg finished on 23%...
    Yes, and I remember the night well. It was depressing. Scarcely different vote share from 2005, and we lost seats.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    geoffw said:

    Tactical voting on the right comes into play. This needs voter awareness of Reform/Tory strength in their constituencies

    This assumes that the rump Tory support is willing to touch Reform with a ten foot bargepole. Hardly a given.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,050

    ydoethur said:

    On a point of order:

    David Lloyd George was not a Liberal when he was PM. He was suspended from the party in 1916 following his coup against Asquith and not readmitted until 1923.

    See I knew you'd pick up on this.

    I was going to originally say the last Liberal to be PM but Churchill complicated that.
    You could have picked Asquith.

    The somewhat dry* donnish figure who came from modest backgrounds via multiple scholarships to public school and Oxbridge but simply couldn't relate to ordinary people and wasn't especially smart at politics.

    *Leaving aside the drinking and sex mania.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,613



    Techne poll

    And breathe...
    A good poll for the Tories being 19%....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,322

    Maybe we've been looking in the wrong party for the Portillo moment of this election. It could be someone who would have had a place in Starmer's cabinet losing their seat unexpectedly to Reform.

    Someone like Lisa Nandy could be vulnerable.

    Can tell you aren't a Wiganer.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,532
    Got a leaflet from Wes Streeting's Labour yesterday, but zip from the other parties in Ilford North.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 3,151
    edited June 13

    Andy_JS said:

    LoL

    Lab: 37% (-1)
    Reform: 19% (+2)
    Con: 18% (nc)
    Lib Dem: 14% (-1)
    Green: 7 (-1)
    SNP: 3 (+1)
    Plaid: 1 (nc)
    Other: 2 (+1)

    Loving the 37% landslide mainly because i am on Lab less than 12.9m votes but also because democracy is fooked

    SKS fans please explain
    Starting to look like the more people see of SKS the less they are likely to vote Lab.

    Early days but I am currently ecstatic with my GE2024 bets

    And indeed SKS fans please explain why Lab have gone from 46 to 37 in a week with YG

    Will end up on 10% at that rate!!
    Then why are his own ratings going up?

    Because the methodology changed...
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,113

    Andy_JS said:

    LoL

    Lab: 37% (-1)
    Reform: 19% (+2)
    Con: 18% (nc)
    Lib Dem: 14% (-1)
    Green: 7 (-1)
    SNP: 3 (+1)
    Plaid: 1 (nc)
    Other: 2 (+1)

    Loving the 37% landslide mainly because i am on Lab less than 12.9m votes but also because democracy is fooked

    SKS fans please explain
    Starting to look like the more people see of SKS the less they are likely to vote Lab.

    Early days but I am currently ecstatic with my GE2024 bets

    And indeed SKS fans please explain why Lab have gone from 46 to 37 in a week with YG

    Will end up on 10% at that rate!!
    Looking like labour is slipping slightly in the polls but no one will gain from it as the opposition is split.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,500

    I'm beginning to realise that I have woefully underestimated the amount of snacks I need for election night.

    What snacks do you think you will need?

    I think a box of chocolates might be a good option for a Labour-style snack. "Labour is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get." They've given precious little away in the manifesto...
    That's a bag of Revels.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,390

    Wot? No Sir Ed Davey??

    He'll be Leader of th
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    LoL

    Lab: 37% (-1)
    Reform: 19% (+2)
    Con: 18% (nc)
    Lib Dem: 14% (-1)
    Green: 7 (-1)
    SNP: 3 (+1)
    Plaid: 1 (nc)
    Other: 2 (+1)

    Loving the 37% landslide mainly because i am on Lab less than 12.9m votes but also because democracy is fooked

    SKS fans please explain
    YouGov is now polling using the candidates by name and party in the voters constituency. I know because I was in this poll (as an Undecided). So increasingly we are seeing a sharpening of Tactical Voting.

    You poll as undecided? I never knew you were a Tory!
    I am genuinely undecided how I will vote. Likely LD, but could go Green.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,652
    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    Tactical voting on the right comes into play. This needs voter awareness of Reform/Tory strength in their constituencies

    This assumes that the rump Tory support is willing to touch Reform with a ten foot bargepole. Hardly a given.
    You are right, the 'rump' won't vote tactically, but the fringe might well

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,261



    Techne poll

    Not trying to be funny but why is that poll dated tomorrow?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,197
    Starmer getting very shirty over toolmakergate:

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1801301642463019196

    The people laughing at Starmer last night for saying his dad was a toolmaker for the zillionth time were apparently doing it out of disrespect and snobbery. Don’t think that’s quite what happened to be honest!
  • REF + Con = 37%

    LAB + LD + GREEN = 58%

    Hence the Lab majority - but one vulnerable to future swings and roundabouts.

    Yes Reform likely won’t do much if they stick around 19% but the point is if less-tuned in Tory voters start noticing what’s happening they *might* switch, and then who knows what will happen.

    Of course it won’t be straightforward, but last week people were saying the same about Crossover.

    We are in uncharted territory and uncharted things could happen.

    This isn't yet cross-over. It is one poll. However, this one poll may lead to cross-over. We will see
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,532
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I think Reform are now (temporarily) taking voters from both Tories and Labour.

    This is the mid campaign version of the Cleggasm. They’ll fall back again in due course.

    Clegg finished on 23%...
    Yes, and I remember the night well. It was depressing. Scarcely different vote share from 2005, and we lost seats.
    LibDems - Drowning their sorrows here!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,331

    Andy_JS said:

    LoL

    Lab: 37% (-1)
    Reform: 19% (+2)
    Con: 18% (nc)
    Lib Dem: 14% (-1)
    Green: 7 (-1)
    SNP: 3 (+1)
    Plaid: 1 (nc)
    Other: 2 (+1)

    Loving the 37% landslide mainly because i am on Lab less than 12.9m votes but also because democracy is fooked

    SKS fans please explain
    Starting to look like the more people see of SKS the less they are likely to vote Lab.

    Early days but I am currently ecstatic with my GE2024 bets

    And indeed SKS fans please explain why Lab have gone from 46 to 37 in a week with YG

    Will end up on 10% at that rate!!
    Then why are his own ratings going up?

    Because the methodology changed...
    The best thing to do with Owls is ignore him. He is simply a troll. Once a good poster but driven quite deranged by his weird obsession with Sir Keir.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,113
    This seven way debate is shite.
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 578
    Efficiency of Labour / Lib Dem tactical vote and the depressed Tory vote is not being accounted for enough.

    Even 37 is not nearly as bad for Labour as it might look.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,050
    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    LoL

    Lab: 37% (-1)
    Reform: 19% (+2)
    Con: 18% (nc)
    Lib Dem: 14% (-1)
    Green: 7 (-1)
    SNP: 3 (+1)
    Plaid: 1 (nc)
    Other: 2 (+1)

    Loving the 37% landslide mainly because i am on Lab less than 12.9m votes but also because democracy is fooked

    SKS fans please explain
    Starting to look like the more people see of SKS the less they are likely to vote Lab.

    Early days but I am currently ecstatic with my GE2024 bets

    And indeed SKS fans please explain why Lab have gone from 46 to 37 in a week with YG

    Will end up on 10% at that rate!!
    Looking like labour is slipping slightly in the polls but no one will gain from it as the opposition is split.
    Could it be 1931 in reverse?

    It's not impossible.

    Personally I still think it unlikely.

    Any seat total above 350 and Starmer really does deserve to be spoken of in the same breath as Attlee.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,050

    Starmer getting very shirty over toolmakergate:

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1801301642463019196

    The people laughing at Starmer last night for saying his dad was a toolmaker for the zillionth time were apparently doing it out of disrespect and snobbery. Don’t think that’s quite what happened to be honest!

    Well, that sort of attitude does suggest BJO is right* and his dad made a tool.

    *Only about that.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    geoffw said:

    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    Tactical voting on the right comes into play. This needs voter awareness of Reform/Tory strength in their constituencies

    This assumes that the rump Tory support is willing to touch Reform with a ten foot bargepole. Hardly a given.
    You are right, the 'rump' won't vote tactically, but the fringe might well

    I don't know, is there anyone left in that Tory vote share who might still be willing to defect or are they down to the core?

    I'd previously have said their core in a GE would be 30%, so I don't know. We're all guessing at this stage. Potentially some very odd things about to happen.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,052
    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    New-fangled chart on Wikipedia:

    image

    Hahah. If you extrapolate those trends (absurd but fun) Labour end up about 33%, Reform end up around 26%, the Tories and LDs both get about 15%

    Baxtered:

    Labour: 375
    Reform: 127
    LDs: 67
    Con: 39

    Starmer is PM. Farage is the LOTO

    By the election of 2028 the rump of the Tories have been absorbed into Reform and Farage becomes PM
    Reform have no real ground game, so I think your orgasmic reaction is misplaced. The Lib Dems are fighting their targets intensely. Reform have candidates that will explode and have no real target strategy beyond Clacton and Ashfield. IF you believe those numbers, then by all means go all in, but if I were you I would prepare to be very disappointed.
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    New-fangled chart on Wikipedia:

    image

    Hahah. If you extrapolate those trends (absurd but fun) Labour end up about 33%, Reform end up around 26%, the Tories and LDs both get about 15%

    Baxtered:

    Labour: 375
    Reform: 127
    LDs: 67
    Con: 39

    Starmer is PM. Farage is the LOTO

    By the election of 2028 the rump of the Tories have been absorbed into Reform and Farage becomes PM
    Reform have no real ground game, so I think your orgasmic reaction is misplaced. The Lib Dems are fighting their targets intensely. Reform have candidates that will explode and have no real target strategy beyond Clacton and Ashfield. IF you believe those numbers, then by all means go
    all in, but if I were you I would prepare to be very disappointed.
    Did you miss the *absurd but fun" bit?
    Its certainly absurd, you have to have some grounding in reality, otherwise you end up like Grant Shapps, and who wants that?
    Well, the reality is: Reform have just overtaken the Tories, and this with one of the most respected pollsters out there. THAT is the reality
    Not convinced, I would wait for few more polls before you reach for the Kleenex.
  • I am bemused at the polls all showing SKS and Labour's approval going up but yet the poll ratings going down. Sunak's own ratings continue to fall.

    I am sceptical about this methodology change from YouGov.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,045
    edited June 13
    GB News is already making hay with the Yougov poll on twitter ,though, and for instance.

    That's the kind of publicity that changes things.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,917

    tlg86 said:

    I reckon Labour will be more worried by Reform than the Tories.

    Yes, if Reform continue to rise, they become competitive in Labour Leave seats. That's the nightmare scenario for Labour.
    If Reform do win a bunch of seats I'd be looking at South Yorks for where some of them will be.
  • tlg86 said:

    I reckon Labour will be more worried by Reform than the Tories.

    No, as @Cicero points out Reform have no real ground game.
    I suspect Lab aren't worried by either of them - this GE at least. A large part of the core right-wing vote will be voting next week remember. Not much time for momentum to build
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,022
    Labour's average poll rating = 40.5%, taking the last 10 polls to be published.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,554

    Starmer getting very shirty over toolmakergate:

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1801301642463019196

    The people laughing at Starmer last night for saying his dad was a toolmaker for the zillionth time were apparently doing it out of disrespect and snobbery. Don’t think that’s quite what happened to be honest!

    Yes the video of him talking to GBNews was very worrying. Came across every inch the dour chippy lefty seeing slights round every corner, and looking forward to screwing his perceived oppressors (who will by and large be less wealthy and middle class than he).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,532
    geoffw said:

    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    Tactical voting on the right comes into play. This needs voter awareness of Reform/Tory strength in their constituencies

    This assumes that the rump Tory support is willing to touch Reform with a ten foot bargepole. Hardly a given.
    You are right, the 'rump' won't vote tactically, but the fringe might well

    Will the Tory Remnant merge with Reform?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,331
    Taz said:

    This seven way debate is shite.

    It is really bad.
  • Efficiency of Labour / Lib Dem tactical vote and the depressed Tory vote is not being accounted for enough.

    Even 37 is not nearly as bad for Labour as it might look.

    We're at the point where a 20 point lead is apparently "bad".
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,605

    Better hair from Penny this evening. Still the worst on the panel, however.

    You must have missed Ben Bradshaw this morning on Times Radio. He was like a bleached Beaker.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,673
    edited June 13
    Foxy said:

    I wonder if a panicked Sunak might now agree to a head-to-head debate with Farage?

    He would be crazy to. He cannot debate, while Farage is good at bombastic rhetoric but nothing else.
    I'm reminded of an old other-PB story, which I'll paraphrase.

    "David Hasselhoff, at the height of his Knight Rider and early pop fame, was visiting apartheid South Africa. A bus pulled up and he tried to get on, but was told it was a bus "just for the blacks" so he wasn't allowed. He turned on the security team saying "David Hasselhoff might not be allowed, but Michael Knight sure can!" and leapt, dramatically, onto the bus to wild applause from the passengers."

    I sometime watch the over-eager "head boy" Rishi in interviews and think of that story.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,113
    The labour fall in Yougov is quite noticeable and it looks like it’s going to Reform if you take the graph on face value.

    Wonder what the data behind it shows.

    https://x.com/yougov/status/1801338289422573581?s=61
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,050
    edited June 13

    Taz said:

    This seven way debate is shite.

    I know but... we're doing our best.

    Is the one on the telly any better?
    The one on the telly probably doesn't have a discussion on whether Asquith, Lloyd George or Truss was the last Liberal PM.

    So I'm claiming it for us.

    Edit - bollocks, I forgot Churchill. But to be fair, if he qualifies so does Truss.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    Tories are sub 20 with 4 pollsters. Its over. They will disintegrate over the next 3 weeks. I cant see them being the opposition.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,500

    Starmer getting very shirty over toolmakergate:

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1801301642463019196

    The people laughing at Starmer last night for saying his dad was a toolmaker for the zillionth time were apparently doing it out of disrespect and snobbery. Don’t think that’s quite what happened to be honest!

    Wait till Starmer sees what pb said about his shirt on the last thread.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,113
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    Andy_JS said:

    LoL

    Lab: 37% (-1)
    Reform: 19% (+2)
    Con: 18% (nc)
    Lib Dem: 14% (-1)
    Green: 7 (-1)
    SNP: 3 (+1)
    Plaid: 1 (nc)
    Other: 2 (+1)

    Loving the 37% landslide mainly because i am on Lab less than 12.9m votes but also because democracy is fooked

    SKS fans please explain
    Starting to look like the more people see of SKS the less they are likely to vote Lab.

    Early days but I am currently ecstatic with my GE2024 bets

    And indeed SKS fans please explain why Lab have gone from 46 to 37 in a week with YG

    Will end up on 10% at that rate!!
    Looking like labour is slipping slightly in the polls but no one will gain from it as the opposition is split.
    Could it be 1931 in reverse?

    It's not impossible.

    Personally I still think it unlikely.

    Any seat total above 350 and Starmer really does deserve to be spoken of in the same breath as Attlee.
    I’d agree and I think he will be seen in future as transformational for the labour movement..
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,197
    dixiedean said:

    Maybe we've been looking in the wrong party for the Portillo moment of this election. It could be someone who would have had a place in Starmer's cabinet losing their seat unexpectedly to Reform.

    Someone like Lisa Nandy could be vulnerable.

    Can tell you aren't a Wiganer.
    Her majority was slashed by 10k votes by BoJo and the Tory + Brexit Party vote last time was neck-and-neck with Labour.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,050
    PB, I am disappointed that I don't think one person had a guess at the answer to this question:

    There once was a man called Farage
    Who ran a quite seedy garage
    He sold many used cars*
    And hung round in bars
    But the whole thing was a fucking mirage.

    *That's a reference to one of his speeches. Will check back later to see if anyone got it.
  • My milkshake brings all the boys to Farage
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,052

    geoffw said:

    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    Tactical voting on the right comes into play. This needs voter awareness of Reform/Tory strength in their constituencies

    This assumes that the rump Tory support is willing to touch Reform with a ten foot bargepole. Hardly a given.
    You are right, the 'rump' won't vote tactically, but the fringe might well

    Will the Tory Remnant merge with Reform?
    No. Especially if we switch to PR.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,265
    edited June 13



    Techne poll

    Not trying to be funny but why is that poll dated tomorrow?
    Techne has enabled AI precognition.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,652
    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    Tactical voting on the right comes into play. This needs voter awareness of Reform/Tory strength in their constituencies

    This assumes that the rump Tory support is willing to touch Reform with a ten foot bargepole. Hardly a given.
    You are right, the 'rump' won't vote tactically, but the fringe might well

    I don't know, is there anyone left in that Tory vote share who might still be willing to defect or are they down to the core?

    I'd previously have said their core in a GE would be 30%, so I don't know. We're all guessing at this stage. Potentially some very odd things about to happen.
    Tories are a broad church, from one-nationers to Manchester liberals, social conservatives, tradionalists, Thatcherites, Eurosceptics and Redwallers. Where is the core nowadays? It is hard to say
  • Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    New-fangled chart on Wikipedia:

    image

    Hahah. If you extrapolate those trends (absurd but fun) Labour end up about 33%, Reform end up around 26%, the Tories and LDs both get about 15%

    Baxtered:

    Labour: 375
    Reform: 127
    LDs: 67
    Con: 39

    Starmer is PM. Farage is the LOTO

    By the election of 2028 the rump of the Tories have been absorbed into Reform and Farage becomes PM
    Reform have no real ground game, so I think your orgasmic reaction is misplaced. The Lib Dems are fighting their targets intensely. Reform have candidates that will explode and have no real target strategy beyond Clacton and Ashfield. IF you believe those numbers, then by all means go all in, but if I were you I would prepare to be very disappointed.
    The only party to knock on my door and hand deliver a leaflet - probably would have canvassed me but I was holding a meeting - has been Reform.
  • The reality at the moment is that YouGov have changed their methodology to one we've never seen before, so it's untested.

    So they might get it spot on, they might not.

    My scepticism with the current polls is that the ratings of the leaders and the polls are now becoming out of alignment, which previously has shown the polls up.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,603
    Meanwhile, BMG:

    Lab 41 (-1)
    Con 21 (-2)
    Ref 14 (-2)
    LD 12 (+3)
    Grn 6 (=)

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/1801296925775233292
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,385

    I am bemused at the polls all showing SKS and Labour's approval going up but yet the poll ratings going down. Sunak's own ratings continue to fall.

    I am sceptical about this methodology change from YouGov.

    Remember that SKS approval rating is not a function of approval for the other leaders, while Labour's vote share is a function of support for other parties.

    It's possible that the absolute number of people who are going to vote Labour is actually increasing even while the proportion falls. Any drop in Reform support in particular could see Labour bump back up to the mid-40s.

    And/or this is tactical. Labour to LD switchers are much more of a threat to the Tories than Reform voters coming out of the non-voting woodwork.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,113

    Taz said:

    This seven way debate is shite.

    I know but... we're doing our best.

    Is the one on the telly any better?
    It makes PB debates seem top of the Premier League. It is somewhat Vauxhall Conference.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,022
    edited June 13

    Tories are sub 20 with 4 pollsters. Its over. They will disintegrate over the next 3 weeks. I cant see them being the opposition.

    Strange because Sunak and Hunt were supposed to be "the adults back in the room" for the Tories. What went wrong?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,546



    Techne poll

    Not trying to be funny but why is that poll dated tomorrow?
    I wondered the same but the poll is showing (dated as 14/6/2024) on their tracker graph, so it's legit.

    https://www.techneuk.com/archive/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,265
    Biden: "I'm extremely proud of my son Hunter. He has overcome an addition ... I said I would abide by the jury decision. I will do that. I will not pardon him."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1801329832627741060
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,672
    Taz said:

    The labour fall in Yougov is quite noticeable and it looks like it’s going to Reform if you take the graph on face value.

    Wonder what the data behind it shows.

    https://x.com/yougov/status/1801338289422573581?s=61

    It does make me semi-question my focus on the bloc votes of LLG vs RefCon. On the basis Reform seems to be an anti-Tory vote and therefore takes some voters from other non-Tory parties.

    The blocs are still useful reference points though, not least because there is very little volatility between polls. RefCon are up a bit - 1-2% in a few polls this week. But some of that may be DK or Labour switchers.

    I predict the squeeze will start in earnest soon though, now people are focused on the election. Expect Con to rise at least 5, probably 7-8%, and Labour to recover 2-3%, mainly off Green and a bit of Ref. I think LD will settle close to or a bit below where ot is currently.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,554
    Leon said:

    Starmer getting very shirty over toolmakergate:

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1801301642463019196

    The people laughing at Starmer last night for saying his dad was a toolmaker for the zillionth time were apparently doing it out of disrespect and snobbery. Don’t think that’s quite what happened to be honest!

    Actually no I’m with Starmer there. He’s defending his Dad and he’s a bit prickly about his Dad being laughed at. Good for Kir, stick up for the working classes, and defend your old man. Nowt wrong with that!
    Absolutely no one was laughing at his dad and it's only his Po-faced nature which makes him unable to see that. They were laughing at his constant repetition of a strange line to try and claim he's a man of the people.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,630
    UK Polling Wiki has tonights YG as a 24% Lab Lead

    37-19?

    37-18?

    Apparently is 24
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,613
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    This seven way debate is shite.

    I know but... we're doing our best.

    Is the one on the telly any better?
    It makes PB debates seem top of the Premier League. It is somewhat Vauxhall Conference.
    PBers have experience debating, politicians generally do not.
  • Eabhal said:

    I am bemused at the polls all showing SKS and Labour's approval going up but yet the poll ratings going down. Sunak's own ratings continue to fall.

    I am sceptical about this methodology change from YouGov.

    Remember that SKS approval rating is not a function of approval for the other leaders, while Labour's vote share is a function of support for other parties.

    It's possible that the absolute number of people who are going to vote Labour is actually increasing even while the proportion falls. Any drop in Reform support in particular could see Labour bump back up to the mid-40s.

    And/or this is tactical. Labour to LD switchers are much more of a threat to the Tories than Reform voters coming out of the non-voting woodwork.
    My feeling is that the changes are down to movement between Labour and the Lib Dems.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,331
    edited June 13
    Techne

    LAB 43 (-1)
    CON 19 (-1)
    REF 16 (+1)
    LIB 11 (+1)
    GRN 6 (=0)
    SNP 2 (=0)

    F/W 12-13 June
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,052
    edited June 13
    MikeL said:

    Meanwhile, BMG:

    Lab 41 (-1)
    Con 21 (-2)
    Ref 14 (-2)
    LD 12 (+3)
    Grn 6 (=)

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/1801296925775233292

    This is, what? The fourth poll showing the Lib Dems moving up, beyond the margin of error.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    New-fangled chart on Wikipedia:

    image

    Hahah. If you extrapolate those trends (absurd but fun) Labour end up about 33%, Reform end up around 26%, the Tories and LDs both get about 15%

    Baxtered:

    Labour: 375
    Reform: 127
    LDs: 67
    Con: 39

    Starmer is PM. Farage is the LOTO

    By the election of 2028 the rump of the Tories have been absorbed into Reform and Farage becomes PM
    Reform have no real ground game, so I think your orgasmic reaction is misplaced. The Lib Dems are fighting their targets intensely. Reform have candidates that will explode and have no real target strategy beyond Clacton and Ashfield. IF you believe those numbers, then by all means go all in, but if I were you I would prepare to be very disappointed.
    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    New-fangled chart on Wikipedia:

    image

    Hahah. If you extrapolate those trends (absurd but fun) Labour end up about 33%, Reform end up around 26%, the Tories and LDs both get about 15%

    Baxtered:

    Labour: 375
    Reform: 127
    LDs: 67
    Con: 39

    Starmer is PM. Farage is the LOTO

    By the election of 2028 the rump of the Tories have been absorbed into Reform and Farage becomes PM
    Reform have no real ground game, so I think your orgasmic reaction is misplaced. The Lib Dems are fighting their targets intensely. Reform have candidates that will explode and have no real target strategy beyond Clacton and Ashfield. IF you believe those numbers, then by all means go
    all in, but if I were you I would prepare to be very disappointed.
    Did you miss the *absurd but fun" bit?
    Its certainly absurd, you have to have some grounding in reality, otherwise you end up like Grant Shapps, and who wants that?
    Well, the reality is: Reform have just overtaken the Tories, and this with one of the most respected pollsters out there. THAT is the reality
    Mmmm, is it? We have one pollster who says so in one poll.
    You're doing that Leon thing where you go from the existence of SOME evidence to bulletproof certainty in a flash.
    I’m literally saying Reform have overtaken the Tories with ONE of our most respected pollsters


    You’re doing that Farooq thing where you twist anything I say into fake and perverse gibberish coz you’ve got some weird obsession about me
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,613
    Nigelb said:

    Biden: "I'm extremely proud of my son Hunter. He has overcome an addition ... I said I would abide by the jury decision. I will do that. I will not pardon him."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1801329832627741060

    He could always pardon Hunter if he loses the election - won't matter then.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    Andy_JS said:

    Tories are sub 20 with 4 pollsters. Its over. They will disintegrate over the next 3 weeks. I cant see them being the opposition.

    Strange because Sunak and Hunt were supposed to be "the adults back in the room" for the Tories. What went wrong?
    14 years and nothing to show. People have had enough.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,546

    UK Polling Wiki has tonights YG as a 24% Lab Lead

    37-19?

    37-18?

    Apparently is 24

    Saw that, clearly typing error. Your regular reminder that wiki is maintained by an army of unpaid volunteers.
  • That Green share also seems a bit implausible.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,486
    2010 general election campaign PB Angus Reid Poll about three weeks out

    LD 33%
    Con 32%
    Lab 23%

    Conclusion, polls three weeks out are not always reliable.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,052

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    New-fangled chart on Wikipedia:

    image

    Hahah. If you extrapolate those trends (absurd but fun) Labour end up about 33%, Reform end up around 26%, the Tories and LDs both get about 15%

    Baxtered:

    Labour: 375
    Reform: 127
    LDs: 67
    Con: 39

    Starmer is PM. Farage is the LOTO

    By the election of 2028 the rump of the Tories have been absorbed into Reform and Farage becomes PM
    Reform have no real ground game, so I think your orgasmic reaction is misplaced. The Lib Dems are fighting their targets intensely. Reform have candidates that will explode and have no real target strategy beyond Clacton and Ashfield. IF you believe those numbers, then by all means go all in, but if I were you I would prepare to be very disappointed.
    The only party to knock on my door and hand deliver a leaflet - probably would have canvassed me but I was holding a meeting - has been Reform.
    Which seat?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,045
    edited June 13
    Well, I did mention earlier that this election was a test of Yougov's credibility as the pre-eminent pollster.

    Last week it was pointed out to me that other pollsters also had Reform at a certain level, but so far no-one else has Reform ahead. Either Yougov are the savvy old uncle, or they've got it wrong so far, but this poll is already taking a life of its own on social media, which might be what is significant.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,113
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    This seven way debate is shite.

    I know but... we're doing our best.

    Is the one on the telly any better?
    It makes PB debates seem top of the Premier League. It is somewhat Vauxhall Conference.
    PBers have experience debating, politicians generally do not.
    Is this the right place for an argument ?

    I’ve told you once.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,613
    edited June 13

    Nigelb said:

    Biden: "I'm extremely proud of my son Hunter. He has overcome an addition ... I said I would abide by the jury decision. I will do that. I will not pardon him."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1801329832627741060

    Classy.

    That's how you respond to a court verdict, not like Trump.
    Biden is old and frail, but he's fundamentally decent. Trump is old and frail, and, well, I'll let people fill in the difference.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,652
    Leon said:

    Starmer getting very shirty over toolmakergate:

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1801301642463019196

    The people laughing at Starmer last night for saying his dad was a toolmaker for the zillionth time were apparently doing it out of disrespect and snobbery. Don’t think that’s quite what happened to be honest!

    Actually no I’m with Starmer there. He’s defending his Dad and he’s a bit prickly about his Dad being laughed at. Good for Kir, stick up for the working classes, and defend your old man. Nowt wrong with that!
    Didn't see it, but I can't imagine they were mocking his old man. Weren't they laughing at the tool hisself?

  • MikeL said:

    Meanwhile, BMG:

    Lab 41 (-1)
    Con 21 (-2)
    Ref 14 (-2)
    LD 12 (+3)
    Grn 6 (=)

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/1801296925775233292

    The trend seems to be that Labour after initially going up at the start of the campaign, has dropped to where it was before the campaign started - and Sunak has cratered the Tories.

    Anything else?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,033
    ...
    GIN1138 said:

    Have to admit, this poll is a genuine KABOOOOOM - Doesn't happen very often, so savour it!

    Indeed, Labour on 37 is a disaster for Starmer.

    Andy_JS said:

    LoL

    Lab: 37% (-1)
    Reform: 19% (+2)
    Con: 18% (nc)
    Lib Dem: 14% (-1)
    Green: 7 (-1)
    SNP: 3 (+1)
    Plaid: 1 (nc)
    Other: 2 (+1)

    Loving the 37% landslide mainly because i am on Lab less than 12.9m votes but also because democracy is fooked

    SKS fans please explain
    Starting to look like the more people see of SKS the less they are likely to vote Lab.

    Early days but I am currently ecstatic with my GE2024 bets

    And indeed SKS fans please explain why Lab have gone from 46 to 37 in a week with YG

    Will end up on 10% at that rate!!
    Starmer's campaign is an unmitigated disaster, but let's not forget where Corbyn landed in 2019.

    P S. Have YouGov changed their methodology?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,193

    Efficiency of Labour / Lib Dem tactical vote and the depressed Tory vote is not being accounted for enough.

    Even 37 is not nearly as bad for Labour as it might look.

    We're at the point where a 20 point lead is apparently "bad".
    Can you post your source/link for that Techne poll please.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,613
    Jonathan said:

    2010 general election campaign PB Angus Reid Poll about three weeks out

    LD 33%
    Con 32%
    Lab 23%

    Conclusion, polls three weeks out are not always reliable.

    True enough. But are the trends we have been seeing generally plausible?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    edited June 13
    Jonathan said:

    2010 general election campaign PB Angus Reid Poll about three weeks out

    LD 33%
    Con 32%
    Lab 23%

    Conclusion, polls three weeks out are not always reliable.

    Cleggasm Vs Nigegasm ?
  • Cicero said:

    Cicero said:

    Leon said:

    New-fangled chart on Wikipedia:

    image

    Hahah. If you extrapolate those trends (absurd but fun) Labour end up about 33%, Reform end up around 26%, the Tories and LDs both get about 15%

    Baxtered:

    Labour: 375
    Reform: 127
    LDs: 67
    Con: 39

    Starmer is PM. Farage is the LOTO

    By the election of 2028 the rump of the Tories have been absorbed into Reform and Farage becomes PM
    Reform have no real ground game, so I think your orgasmic reaction is misplaced. The Lib Dems are fighting their targets intensely. Reform have candidates that will explode and have no real target strategy beyond Clacton and Ashfield. IF you believe those numbers, then by all means go all in, but if I were you I would prepare to be very disappointed.
    The only party to knock on my door and hand deliver a leaflet - probably would have canvassed me but I was holding a meeting - has been Reform.
    Which seat?
    West Lancashire. Safe Labour and the MP is off campaigning elsewhere, but it would be nice to see the useless local Conservatives humbled.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,050
    edited June 13
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Biden: "I'm extremely proud of my son Hunter. He has overcome an addition ... I said I would abide by the jury decision. I will do that. I will not pardon him."
    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1801329832627741060

    He could always pardon Hunter if he loses the election - won't matter then.
    Or if he wins. Term limits (leaving aside biological ones).

    But I can't help wondering if the person he (Biden) will offer a pardon to for all federal crimes if he wins is actually Trump.

    It won't affect Georgia or New York but it would take much of the wind out of Republican sails.

    And it would mean Trump admitting his guilt...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,193
    Cicero said:

    ydoethur said:

    On a point of order:

    David Lloyd George was not a Liberal when he was PM. He was suspended from the party in 1916 following his coup against Asquith and not readmitted until 1923.

    See I knew you'd pick up on this.

    I was going to originally say the last Liberal to be PM but Churchill complicated that.
    *cough* Liz Truss... :wink:
    She was a Liberal Democrat, not a Liberal.

    #Pedantry
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,546
    Who let the polls out?

    Who? Who? Who?
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    MikeL said:

    Meanwhile, BMG:

    Lab 41 (-1)
    Con 21 (-2)
    Ref 14 (-2)
    LD 12 (+3)
    Grn 6 (=)

    https://x.com/HugoGye/status/1801296925775233292

    Quite important to take a broad sweep of polls not just to latch onto the a poll one likes

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,658

    It’s happened!

    Yeah, Oman have collapsed and are giving England a real chance to do dramatic things to their NRR. Bah.

    Or do you mean the politics?
This discussion has been closed.