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I suspect this will go on every Labour leaflet during the general election campaign

SystemSystem Posts: 11,713
edited April 27 in General
I suspect this will go on every Labour leaflet during the general election campaign – politicalbetting.com

?NEW: Former Tory minister defects to Labour?Conservative MP Dan Poulter says Tories have become a “nationalist party of the right” which has abandoned compassion & the NHSStory: https://t.co/nA3qLE6YJD

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    edited April 27
    First again!
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878

    First again!

    But will Poulter be the first of a wave of Tory > Labour defectors?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,050
    edited April 27
    His local council area was won by the Greens last year, with the Tories failing to put up candidates in some areas.

    https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2023/05/05/greens-make-history-by-winning-majority-control-of-mid-suffolk-council/
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    FPT

    legatus said:

    RobD said:

    legatus said:

    Rayner is a nasty piece of work...period.

    Most of the Tories have shown themselves to be a lower form of life.Rayner is far from perfect but has never stooped to their levels of dehumanisation.
    Quite a sweeping generalisation there.
    I know someone who has opted out of organ donation on the basis that he did not wish to risk helping a Tory voter.
    I know somebody who has done the same but they didn't want their organs helping a Labour supporter given Labour's mass murder of brown people in India/Pakistan and latterly in Iraq.

    Labour's dehumanisation is quite sick from Attlee to Blair.
    Are you back in the Tory camp for the GE, TSE? I think we should be told as it has obvious implications for betting.
    It will have no implication on betting.

    I will be my objective self, even when I was in the Tory fold I advised laying the Tories/backing Labour when there was value.

    Take the Angela Rayner story, I've described it as the thinnest of thin gruels, and advised backing her to remain Labour Deputy Leader at the election.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,802
    Oooops.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626
    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,178
    You'd need quite a big swing to overcome Poulter
    - we are talking golf aren't we?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    edited April 27

    FPT

    legatus said:

    RobD said:

    legatus said:

    Rayner is a nasty piece of work...period.

    Most of the Tories have shown themselves to be a lower form of life.Rayner is far from perfect but has never stooped to their levels of dehumanisation.
    Quite a sweeping generalisation there.
    I know someone who has opted out of organ donation on the basis that he did not wish to risk helping a Tory voter.
    I know somebody who has done the same but they didn't want their organs helping a Labour supporter given Labour's mass murder of brown people in India/Pakistan and latterly in Iraq.

    Labour's dehumanisation is quite sick from Attlee to Blair.
    Are you back in the Tory camp for the GE, TSE? I think we should be told as it has obvious implications for betting.
    It will have no implication on betting.

    I will be my objective self, even when I was in the Tory fold I advised laying the Tories/backing Labour when there was value.

    Take the Angela Rayner story, I've described it as the thinnest of thin gruels, and advised backing her to remain Labour Deputy Leader at the election.
    Come on, I'm teasing - your voting intention is none of our business.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878
    Andy_JS said:

    Tories are now down to 345 seats in the Commons. Their majority has been halved since the election by defections, by-elections.

    ... and most of all scandal.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,879

    First again!

    But will Poulter be the first of a wave of Tory > Labour defectors?
    Surely he now believes Labour > Tory?
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,774
    Who?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,178
    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That is how the system is evolving. The NHS has massive waiting lists/times for many treatments. So the people who cannot wait, and can afford not to, go private. Dentistry led the way

  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,031
    Reposted from the end of the last thread

    Looking at his majority I might have to agree that he might be genuine in his claimed reasons. That does look like one of the safer Tory seats.

    To add: I am sure there wil be some attempts at defections from those with smaller majorities who think it might save them.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626
    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That said, one of the reasons I might vote for my MP, Sir Kir Breton Starmer, is that the only hope of radical NHS reform (which it desperately needs) is with Labour, paradoxically. The Tories are terrified of the NHS as an issue, and will only ever hose money at it, while genuflecting and saying “behold the sacred NHS, we are not worthy”

    Whereas Wes Streeting is much more sensible, admits it is no longer “the envy of the world” and talks about real changes

    🙏
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806
    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That's a factor, but nobody, nobody, and nobody imagines the system as efficient. Even private healthcare is a lumbering oaf of inefficiency. For the NHS though the situation is so bad that the care delivered is hugely impaired.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,879

    Who?

    Dr?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644

    Reposted from the end of the last thread

    Looking at his majority I might have to agree that he might be genuine in his claimed reasons. That does look like one of the safer Tory seats.

    To add: I am sure there wil be some attempts at defections from those with smaller majorities who think it might save them.

    He's even more of a Cameroon than I am which is saying something.

    He genuinely believes the Tories have been an ultra nationalist nasty right wing party.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That's a factor, but nobody, nobody, and nobody imagines the system as efficient. Even private healthcare is a lumbering oaf of inefficiency. For the NHS though the situation is so bad that the care delivered is hugely impaired.
    A friend of mine went to see another friend of mine who is very sick in a London hospital just yesterday. He said the hospital is so run down and sad it was like “a Tarkosvky movie”

    Enough. We spend trillions on this thing. The NHS was acceptable when it was cheap and cheerful. Now it is no longer cheap and it certainly isn’t cheerful
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,178

    Who?

    Dr?
    No

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626

    Reposted from the end of the last thread

    Looking at his majority I might have to agree that he might be genuine in his claimed reasons. That does look like one of the safer Tory seats.

    To add: I am sure there wil be some attempts at defections from those with smaller majorities who think it might save them.

    He's even more of a Cameroon than I am which is saying something.

    He genuinely believes the Tories have been an ultra nationalist nasty right wing party.
    It’s absolutely delusional. What nationalist nasty right wing party allows in 1.4m migrants in 2 years and is so scared of the guardian it won’t deport anyone ever?
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,774
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That's a factor, but nobody, nobody, and nobody imagines the system as efficient. Even private healthcare is a lumbering oaf of inefficiency. For the NHS though the situation is so bad that the care delivered is hugely impaired.
    A friend of mine went to see another friend of mine who is very sick in a London hospital just yesterday. He said the hospital is so run down and sad it was like “a Tarkosvky movie”

    Enough. We spend trillions on this thing. The NHS was acceptable when it was cheap and cheerful. Now it is no longer cheap and it certainly isn’t cheerful
    But was it like Solaris or Stalker (assuming it wasn't like Andrei Rublev)?
  • Options
    NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 725
    How far along are Labour with selections around the country? Will they parachute him into a seat they expect to win, as part of the deal, I wonder. Like when Shaun Woodward defected and went from Witney to St Helens in the second Blair term.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    NeilVW said:

    How far along are Labour with selections around the country? Will they parachute him into a seat they expect to win, as part of the deal, I wonder. Like when Shaun Woodward defected and went from Witney to St Helens in the second Blair term.

    He's standing down from the Commons at the next election.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That's a factor, but nobody, nobody, and nobody imagines the system as efficient. Even private healthcare is a lumbering oaf of inefficiency. For the NHS though the situation is so bad that the care delivered is hugely impaired.
    A friend of mine went to see another friend of mine who is very sick in a London hospital just yesterday. He said the hospital is so run down and sad it was like “a Tarkosvky movie”

    Enough. We spend trillions on this thing. The NHS was acceptable when it was cheap and cheerful. Now it is no longer cheap and it certainly isn’t cheerful
    Yes. I'm not sure I'd choose Streeting as the man to change it. I'm not sure Labour have anyone that has endeavour on their cv other than Starmer himself.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That's a factor, but nobody, nobody, and nobody imagines the system as efficient. Even private healthcare is a lumbering oaf of inefficiency. For the NHS though the situation is so bad that the care delivered is hugely impaired.
    A friend of mine went to see another friend of mine who is very sick in a London hospital just yesterday. He said the hospital is so run down and sad it was like “a Tarkosvky movie”

    Enough. We spend trillions on this thing. The NHS was acceptable when it was cheap and cheerful. Now it is no longer cheap and it certainly isn’t cheerful
    Yes. I'm not sure I'd choose Streeting as the man to change it. I'm not sure Labour have anyone that has endeavour on their cv other than Starmer himself.
    What choice do we have?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,475
    Popcorn-tastic!!!
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,536
    edited April 27
    Leon said:

    Reposted from the end of the last thread

    Looking at his majority I might have to agree that he might be genuine in his claimed reasons. That does look like one of the safer Tory seats.

    To add: I am sure there wil be some attempts at defections from those with smaller majorities who think it might save them.

    He's even more of a Cameroon than I am which is saying something.

    He genuinely believes the Tories have been an ultra nationalist nasty right wing party.
    It’s absolutely delusional. What nationalist nasty right wing party allows in 1.4m migrants in 2 years and is so scared of the guardian it won’t deport anyone ever?
    An incompetent one.

    If you’re going to be nasty, and the trains are still late, that’s a fail.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,475
    Number of letters needed to Sir Graham has just dropped by one.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,604

    Reposted from the end of the last thread

    Looking at his majority I might have to agree that he might be genuine in his claimed reasons. That does look like one of the safer Tory seats.

    To add: I am sure there wil be some attempts at defections from those with smaller majorities who think it might save them.

    He's even more of a Cameroon than I am which is saying something.

    He genuinely believes the Tories have been an ultra nationalist nasty right wing party.
    Then it's positive for all concerned that he's found a party that he feels at home in. One somewhat wonders why he insisted on attaching himself to the Tory Party and getting its nasty nationalist members to knock on doors for him in the first place, but he's done the right thing now, and more should follow his example if that's the way they feel.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,615
    geoffw said:

    Who?

    Dr?
    No

    Not without a long waiting list, anyway.

    Rishi's "Britain, yourself together and get back to work" speech was last Friday. That speech doesn't look so clever today. Time to set the "Days since last f#£& up" counter back to zero.

    Mental health in the NHS has always been low on the priority list. Things have improved somewhat in the last couple of decades. New Labour worked out that faster treatment of mental health has a pretty good benefit:cost ratio, as well as improving human happiness. That's kept going since 2010, but not enough.

    And yes, some of that is the external pressures of COVID, smartphones and the worrying world we live in. But also how much is spent on healthcare and what types.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,251
    Richi is losing the election 1 seat at a time...
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,065
    I just noticed the Democrats' recent press campaign to unseat the chronically unwell Justice Sotomayor. Perhaps they too "just noticed" that they control the White House and Senate, and are unlikely to do so for some time.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That's a factor, but nobody, nobody, and nobody imagines the system as efficient. Even private healthcare is a lumbering oaf of inefficiency. For the NHS though the situation is so bad that the care delivered is hugely impaired.
    A friend of mine went to see another friend of mine who is very sick in a London hospital just yesterday. He said the hospital is so run down and sad it was like “a Tarkosvky movie”

    Enough. We spend trillions on this thing. The NHS was acceptable when it was cheap and cheerful. Now it is no longer cheap and it certainly isn’t cheerful
    Yes. I'm not sure I'd choose Streeting as the man to change it. I'm not sure Labour have anyone that has endeavour on their cv other than Starmer himself.
    What choice do we have?
    Well, you could throw your hat in the ring. I could too - on an anti-Leon ticket!

    The pool of potential future ministers that have any merit is pretty dry. I've been trying to work out if Reform are in any way coherent, but I suspect not.

    There's a candidate in the London mayoral elections under the SDP banner - maybe, maybe. Certainly not the LDs though.

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Reposted from the end of the last thread

    Looking at his majority I might have to agree that he might be genuine in his claimed reasons. That does look like one of the safer Tory seats.

    To add: I am sure there wil be some attempts at defections from those with smaller majorities who think it might save them.

    He's even more of a Cameroon than I am which is saying something.

    He genuinely believes the Tories have been an ultra nationalist nasty right wing party.
    It’s absolutely delusional. What nationalist nasty right wing party allows in 1.4m migrants in 2 years and is so scared of the guardian it won’t deport anyone ever?
    An incompetent one.

    If you’re going to be nasty, and the trains are still late, that’s a fail.
    Indeed. That’s the worst of it all. The Tories pretend to be nasty and right wing and authoritarian so they get all the hate that comes with that; yet in reality they are high tax high spend high migration. They are further left than Blair

    I absolutely despise them. I hope they go extinct
  • Options
    MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,464
    edited April 27
    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    It was doing fine 'tll 2010.


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    megasaurmegasaur Posts: 121
    Small defection in Suffolk, not many dead. The Tories have pumped money into the NHS (20 billion a year extra from T May) and everyone can see it is useless because it just is, plus COVID effects. I don't think 24 hours to save it from the Tories is an effective line any more

    What I do think is, we have an ex chancellor pm heavily beholden to the actual chancellor. Chancellors do stuff in Autumn Statements in late November (abolish iht and stamp duty and so on). The value in December GE at 8 and January at 20 is extraordinary.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,626
    Some generally pro-Ukraine accounts are reporting a significant Russian breakthrough

    No idea if it’s true. But the sources for this are unusual if it’s not true. Also no idea what “significant” means
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,366
    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    rNHS will always be understaffed and underfunded in the eyes of many, irrespective of however many people and how much cash is thrown at it.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,880
    edited April 27
    On the subject of NHS. This happened just up the road at QMC recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/26/woman-found-too-late-under-coat-in-nottingham-ae-after-eight-hour-wait

    Mind you, she wouldn't have got to theatre anywhere else in the East Midlands. All the neuro-surgery is at QMC.

    It's pretty grim out there, but it's because of failures in parts of the system that other bits are a mess. That ED wouldn't be so busy if Primary Care and Social Care was functioning well. It's also a failure of training by whoever did the triage. That story had Subarachnoid haemorrhage all over it.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,704
    Yuk. Turncoat.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,377
    NeilVW said:

    How far along are Labour with selections around the country? Will they parachute him into a seat they expect to win, as part of the deal, I wonder. Like when Shaun Woodward defected and went from Witney to St Helens in the second Blair term.

    They've been selected pretty much everywhere, though for various tactical or personal reasons (typically restricted employment or health) the announcement has been delayed in some constituencies. But in this particular case he doesn't want to stand again anyway.

    I was helping to run a Labour street stand in Wantage this morning, a small town where the LibDems dominated last year but Tories got 19-25% - Labour didn't stand at all. Plenty of Labour support today, three LibDems and also several Reform UK, but only one overt Tory (a nice very elderly lady). No special reason why people should volunteer their preference to another party's street stall, but I do sense that the party is withering away down to the "I always vote Tory out of habit" people. It's quite a while since someone said to me that they really like what Sunak is doing.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    So about that election Rishi was going to call on Monday... ;)
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,079
    edited April 27
    Nationalism is that stance that states that policy should be organised around the nation-state and centered on and for the people of that state. It's usually deprecated when it's used for blood and soil purposes, but that's not innate to the concept.

    The present UK Conservative Party is importing 500K-1M people per year to stimulate growth, exporting profits to countries around the world at a rate of knots, and selling off bits of land to whichever foreign sovereign wealth fund has a surplus this week. It has ministers of many different faiths and race. It makes Michael Foot look like Margaret Thatcher. Its current incarnation is less nationalist than any British party in power that I can think of.

    I will never get over how dumb some MPs are about politics.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,178
    Leon said:

    Some generally pro-Ukraine accounts are reporting a significant Russian breakthrough

    No idea if it’s true. But the sources for this are unusual if it’s not true. Also no idea what “significant” means

    Is it Chasiv Yar?
    https://kyivindependent.com/russia-wants-to-capture-chasiv-yar-why-is-this-town-so-important/
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,758

    Who?

    I can't explain.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,031
    This is just one more reason why we need rid of this bunch of incompetents

    Rolls-Royce scales back plans to build nuclear factories in UK
    Curtailing comes after repeated delays to an ongoing government design competition

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/27/rolls-royce-plans-build-smr-water-vessel-factory-uk/
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,031

    Who?

    I can't explain.
    You think it's love?
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,018
    Foxy said:

    On the subject of NHS. This happened just up the road at QMC recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/26/woman-found-too-late-under-coat-in-nottingham-ae-after-eight-hour-wait

    Mind you, she wouldn't have got to theatre anywhere else in the East Midlands. All the neuro-surgery is at QMC.

    It's pretty grim out there, but it's because of failures in parts of the system that other bits are a mess. That ED wouldn't be so busy if Primary Care and Social Care was functioning well. It's also a failure of training by whoever did the triage. That story had Subarachnoid haemorrhage all over it.

    I can't believe they rely on people answering to their name. She can't be the first person to lose consciousness in A&E. And as you say, those symptoms should scare a layman, let alone the triage person.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,079

    Yuk. Turncoat.

    Nobody likes a traitor. Or, if they do, ever trusts them again.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,758

    Number of letters needed to Sir Graham has just dropped by one.

    But so has the number who would vote to get rid of Sunak.
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,074
    This is a very brave move by Poulter given his seat is a in strong Tory area . So hard to see him holding this in the GE .

    Regardless , the optics of a doctor abandoning the Tories over the NHS is horrific for Sunak .

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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,879
    viewcode said:

    Yuk. Turncoat.

    Nobody likes a traitor. Or, if they do, ever trusts them again.
    Err, wasn't the most popular British politician of all time a switcher?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,758
    Leon said:

    Reposted from the end of the last thread

    Looking at his majority I might have to agree that he might be genuine in his claimed reasons. That does look like one of the safer Tory seats.

    To add: I am sure there wil be some attempts at defections from those with smaller majorities who think it might save them.

    He's even more of a Cameroon than I am which is saying something.

    He genuinely believes the Tories have been an ultra nationalist nasty right wing party.
    It’s absolutely delusional. What nationalist nasty right wing party allows in 1.4m migrants in 2 years and is so scared of the guardian it won’t deport anyone ever?
    But aren't 1.3m of them card carrying members of the BJP?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    viewcode said:

    Yuk. Turncoat.

    Nobody likes a traitor. Or, if they do, ever trusts them again.
    Sir Winston Churchill was a dirty double rat and everyone eventually trusted him.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,880
    nico679 said:

    This is a very brave move by Poulter given his seat is a in strong Tory area . So hard to see him holding this in the GE .

    Regardless , the optics of a doctor abandoning the Tories over the NHS is horrific for Sunak .

    He is standing down.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644

    viewcode said:

    Yuk. Turncoat.

    Nobody likes a traitor. Or, if they do, ever trusts them again.
    Err, wasn't the most popular British politician of all time a switcher?
    He was a traitorous turncoat twice.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,880

    Leon said:

    Reposted from the end of the last thread

    Looking at his majority I might have to agree that he might be genuine in his claimed reasons. That does look like one of the safer Tory seats.

    To add: I am sure there wil be some attempts at defections from those with smaller majorities who think it might save them.

    He's even more of a Cameroon than I am which is saying something.

    He genuinely believes the Tories have been an ultra nationalist nasty right wing party.
    It’s absolutely delusional. What nationalist nasty right wing party allows in 1.4m migrants in 2 years and is so scared of the guardian it won’t deport anyone ever?
    But aren't 1.3m of them card carrying members of the BJP?
    Didn't know the BJP had such big Ukranian and Hong Kong membership.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,079

    viewcode said:

    Yuk. Turncoat.

    Nobody likes a traitor. Or, if they do, ever trusts them again.
    Err, wasn't the most popular British politician of all time a switcher?
    What, Lembit Opik? :)
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,604

    viewcode said:

    Yuk. Turncoat.

    Nobody likes a traitor. Or, if they do, ever trusts them again.
    Err, wasn't the most popular British politician of all time a switcher?
    He was a traitorous turncoat twice.
    Please don't use such language about Mr Kilroy-Silk.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    viewcode said:

    Yuk. Turncoat.

    Nobody likes a traitor. Or, if they do, ever trusts them again.
    Err, wasn't the most popular British politician of all time a switcher?
    He was a traitorous turncoat twice.
    And what do you conclude from that? Given the results.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    Talking about traitorous turncoats.

    Soviet double agent Anthony Blunt may have helped Hitler too

    In 1979 the art historian was outed as one of the Cambridge spies recruited by Stalin.

    Shocking new evidence suggests he may also have passed deadly secrets to the Nazis, Robert Verkaik reports


    This is not the story I intended to tell. I set out to write a book about a distant relative, Eddy Verkaik, who had fought in the Dutch resistance during the Second World War. Eddy had helped alert the British to the treachery of a fellow Dutch resistance fighter — a terrifying giant of a man known as “King Kong”: Christiaan Lindemans.

    Lindemans had betrayed Operation Market Garden, the ambitious and ill-fated Allied airborne mission that dropped thousands of paratroopers into the Nazi-occupied Netherlands, the 80th anniversary of which falls this September. Had it succeeded, it would have kicked open the door to the heart of Germany and brought the conflict to a speedy end. In the event the Allies lost more than 17,000 men in what was to be their final defeat of the war.

    But one day in the archive everything changed. I discovered a second double agent had betrayed Operation Market Garden to the Germans — a spy codenamed Josephine, whom history had all but forgotten and whose identity has never been revealed. As I started to pull on that thread, who should pop out but Anthony Blunt, one of the Cambridge spies — the group of upper-class double agents who, for years during the Second World War and the Cold War, passed British and American secrets to their communist masters in Russia.

    For decades Blunt has widely been regarded as one of the more harmless of that group. But my research would suggest he was perhaps the most devastatingly treacherous — and without realising it I had uncovered one of the greatest spy mysteries of the 20th century, a story with ramifications that are still felt to this day.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anthony-blunt-soviet-russian-spy-nazis-xsn37f8dx
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 5,074
    Foxy said:

    nico679 said:

    This is a very brave move by Poulter given his seat is a in strong Tory area . So hard to see him holding this in the GE .

    Regardless , the optics of a doctor abandoning the Tories over the NHS is horrific for Sunak .

    He is standing down.
    Yes my mistake. This defection is a very big deal given his role in the NHS .
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,079
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    rNHS will always be understaffed and underfunded in the eyes of many, irrespective of however many people and how much cash is thrown at it.
    Is that the rump "r" as used for Scottish Nationalists (as in "rUK"), or the Yorkshire "r" as in rSteve, rYvonne, rKelly and rMam?
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    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,231
    GIN1138 said:

    So about that election Rishi was going to call on Monday... ;)

    Rishi is probably polishing the podium now ready for Monday 👍
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,377
    Leon said:

    Some generally pro-Ukraine accounts are reporting a significant Russian breakthrough

    No idea if it’s true. But the sources for this are unusual if it’s not true. Also no idea what “significant” means

    Yes, Tom Cooper, an Austrian military analyst who is emphatically pro-Ukraine (even raised money to help buy equipment), has been reporting gradual erosion for some time - it's not a collapse, but a series of retreats by kilometres along the front, with heavy casualties on both sides. His blogs are tiresomely sarcastic for my taste (he's not an admirer of Western aid), but generally very carefully sourced:

    https://xxtomcooperxx.substack.com/

    That said, I suspect it's Russia trying to exploit the position before the new US supplies arrive, and we'll be back to stalemate in a month or two.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878

    Number of letters needed to Sir Graham has just dropped by one.

    Albeit, Brady can probably tear up one of the letters now.
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    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,614
    1. Dan Poulter's seat is one the Tories would hold even if they're slaughtered at the GE - he was safe unless the Tories went under 50 seats. As far as I can find out he was at no risk of being deselected.
    2. Poulter does not want to be a Labour MP - he's getting out.
    3. Anybody who questions the genuineness of Poulter's motives is ignoring 1. and 2.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,475
    Foxy said:

    On the subject of NHS. This happened just up the road at QMC recently:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/26/woman-found-too-late-under-coat-in-nottingham-ae-after-eight-hour-wait

    Mind you, she wouldn't have got to theatre anywhere else in the East Midlands. All the neuro-surgery is at QMC.

    It's pretty grim out there, but it's because of failures in parts of the system that other bits are a mess. That ED wouldn't be so busy if Primary Care and Social Care was functioning well. It's also a failure of training by whoever did the triage. That story had Subarachnoid haemorrhage all over it.

    Absolutely appalling.

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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,704

    This is just one more reason why we need rid of this bunch of incompetents

    Rolls-Royce scales back plans to build nuclear factories in UK
    Curtailing comes after repeated delays to an ongoing government design competition

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/27/rolls-royce-plans-build-smr-water-vessel-factory-uk/

    I'm quite close to this and I can confirm RR is really pissed off at how HMG has fucked around and delayed on this.

    However, I think this is a British institutional thing with our government structures and civil service and not a political one. Labour certainly wouldn't be able to do it any faster.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,878

    Reposted from the end of the last thread

    Looking at his majority I might have to agree that he might be genuine in his claimed reasons. That does look like one of the safer Tory seats.

    To add: I am sure there wil be some attempts at defections from those with smaller majorities who think it might save them.

    He's even more of a Cameroon than I am which is saying something.

    He genuinely believes the Tories have been an ultra nationalist nasty right wing party.
    Blimey, a sensible Tory. Where's he been hiding?
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,683
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That's a factor, but nobody, nobody, and nobody imagines the system as efficient. Even private healthcare is a lumbering oaf of inefficiency. For the NHS though the situation is so bad that the care delivered is hugely impaired.
    I went private recently. The first chap doddled a list of tests and other people he wanted me to see on an iPad as he went. By the time he’d finished (10 minutes) his secretory had lined up the tests and appointments for me - a couple of options for each. Calendar ics for each, straight to my phone.

    All that done, I was back for the results 3 days later. Another 10 minutes and done.

    Seemed like a very streamlined setup to me.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,050

    1. Dan Poulter's seat is one the Tories would hold even if they're slaughtered at the GE - he was safe unless the Tories went under 50 seats. As far as I can find out he was at no risk of being deselected.
    2. Poulter does not want to be a Labour MP - he's getting out.
    3. Anybody who questions the genuineness of Poulter's motives is ignoring 1. and 2.

    But on the other hand, as I mentioned earlier, his local council area was won by the Greens last year. Maybe the Tory vote is a lot softer than it looks.
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    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,879
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Yuk. Turncoat.

    Nobody likes a traitor. Or, if they do, ever trusts them again.
    Err, wasn't the most popular British politician of all time a switcher?
    What, Lembit Opik? :)
    Now you are just being cheeky.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,704

    viewcode said:

    Yuk. Turncoat.

    Nobody likes a traitor. Or, if they do, ever trusts them again.
    Sir Winston Churchill was a dirty double rat and everyone eventually trusted him.
    Except they didn't. Even in 1940 he was widely suspected in the Tory Party, and to some extent always was.

    It was his war record that saved him. And even then he was a bit odd in his final premiership too, which essentially was quasi-Victorian - focused largely on imperial and foreign policy and domestically ineffective.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,505
    edited April 27
    Leon said:

    Some generally pro-Ukraine accounts are reporting a significant Russian breakthrough

    No idea if it’s true. But the sources for this are unusual if it’s not true. Also no idea what “significant” means

    I see that warmonitor3 is reporting that. I stopped following that account when they reported a breakthrough at Robotyne, which ended up being a bit underwhelming. Certainly not what people normally think of as a breakthrough.

    Also, a bit strange that they don't say where.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,615

    viewcode said:

    Nationalism is that stance that states that policy should be organised around the nation-state and centered on and for the people of that state. It's usually deprecated when it's used for blood and soil purposes, but that's not innate to the concept.

    The present UK Conservative Party is importing 500K-1M people per year to stimulate growth, exporting profits to countries around the world at a rate of knots, and selling off bits of land to whichever foreign sovereign wealth fund has a surplus this week. It has ministers of many different faiths and race. It makes Michael Foot look like Margaret Thatcher. Its current incarnation is less nationalist than any British party in power that I can think of.

    I will never get over how dumb some MPs are about politics.

    The problem with this Government as far as Nationalism goes is not the big actions. You are right,it is acting in just the same globalist way it always has. The problem is that it thinks (knows?) such behaviour is unpopular and that it has negative repercussions for the public and so it pretnds it isn't like that. And the only way it can think of to do that is to be inhuman (using the IMO accurate term debated in the previous thread) about the individuals unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time to get used by them. So asylum seekers are public enemy number one because they have the right profile and are not able to fight back.

    The fundamental problems with this Government are it is inept, dishonest, vindictive and corrupt. It is also, at its heart, globalist, which is neither necessarily good nor bad with a Government that is not inept, dishonest, vindictive and corrupt but is disastrous with one that is because it is unable to deal with the strains and contradictions that globalism brings. So it responds by picking on little people as a scape goat.
    The irony of 2019 onwards (and probably 2016 itself).

    The people who voted for it may have been largely nationalists, hoping for some version of a nationalist project.

    But the people at the top were globalists, who hoped to appease the plebs with some flag-waving rhetoric. That's why we ended up here.

    I'm not bothered about Rishi's past, but I'm interested in how he sees his future. Does anyone seriously think he will stay in the UK a second longer than strictly necessary?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    So Poulter wants 'NHS reform' does he ?

    He'll need more than good luck to get both Labour and the NHS to support that.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,604

    1. Dan Poulter's seat is one the Tories would hold even if they're slaughtered at the GE - he was safe unless the Tories went under 50 seats. As far as I can find out he was at no risk of being deselected.
    2. Poulter does not want to be a Labour MP - he's getting out.
    3. Anybody who questions the genuineness of Poulter's motives is ignoring 1. and 2.

    4. Let's see whether there is any post-Westminster NHS advisory role in the gift of Starmer in the offing. Or in my case, let's hope that Starmer isn't elected so it never happens.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,475

    Keir Starmer
    @Keir_Starmer

    It’s fantastic to welcome Dr Dan Poulter MP to today’s changed Labour Party.

    It’s time to end the Conservative chaos, turn the page, and get Britain’s future back. I’m really pleased that Dan has decided to join us on this journey.

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1784260677390987666
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,880
    edited April 27

    So Poulter wants 'NHS reform' does he ?

    He'll need more than good luck to get both Labour and the NHS to support that.

    Everyone supports reforming the NHS. They just have different reforms in mind.
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    CJtheOptimistCJtheOptimist Posts: 255
    ydoethur said:

    Really? You have a bank near you?
    Good point. This is creepy , though
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    What utter bollocks. The NHS now gets plenty of money - about the European average IIRC?

    What it desperately needs is massive reform, and a switch to contributory welfare rather than “free to everyone, come on in”

    That said, one of the reasons I might vote for my MP, Sir Kir Breton Starmer, is that the only hope of radical NHS reform (which it desperately needs) is with Labour, paradoxically. The Tories are terrified of the NHS as an issue, and will only ever hose money at it, while genuflecting and saying “behold the sacred NHS, we are not worthy”

    Whereas Wes Streeting is much more sensible, admits it is no longer “the envy of the world” and talks about real changes

    🙏
    Streeting seems well meaning but he has as much chance of implementing real changes as Frank Field did of implementing his welfare reform ideas in 1997.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    One of the micro improvements we've had in recent years is live cricket on YouTube.

    Not just at county level but quite a few local clubs provide it now as well.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,475
    James O'Brien
    @mrjamesob
    ·
    1h
    Hours after Downing Street briefed friendly journalists that they'd had a great week, a former Minister defects to Labour...

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,145

    1. Dan Poulter's seat is one the Tories would hold even if they're slaughtered at the GE - he was safe unless the Tories went under 50 seats. As far as I can find out he was at no risk of being deselected.
    2. Poulter does not want to be a Labour MP - he's getting out.
    3. Anybody who questions the genuineness of Poulter's motives is ignoring 1. and 2.

    4. Let's see whether there is any post-Westminster NHS advisory role in the gift of Starmer in the offing. Or in my case, let's hope that Starmer isn't elected so it never happens.
    Is reading something before commenting on it against your religion or something?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,050

    ydoethur said:

    Really? You have a bank near you?
    Good point. This is creepy , though
    Thanks for flagging this up.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644
    Hold on, Royal Mail do deliveries on Saturdays?

    End of Saturday post? Royal Mail may cut deliveries after union gives in

    CWU, which represents 110,000 postal workers, has signalled that it would back a change to universal service obligation rules — which could mean up to 9,000 daily rounds are stopped


    Union leaders have conceded for the first time that they will accept an end to six-day-a-week letter deliveries, clearing the way for Royal Mail to enact historic cuts to postal services.

    The Communication Workers Union (CWU), which represents 110,000 postal workers and brought services to a standstill with industrial action in 2022, has been one of the biggest hurdles to Royal Mail reducing its loss-making daily deliveries.

    But it is now ready to back the company’s proposed reforms, admitting that the current service is “no longer financially viable”.

    Royal Mail is pushing to reform the universal service obligation (USO) — legally binding rules that stipulate letters must be delivered to every UK household six days a week. It wants to shift to delivering second-class post only every other day, and slowing down bulk letters from government organisations and businesses.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/end-of-saturday-post-royal-mail-could-cut-deliveries-after-union-gives-up-c68bcjbhs
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,145
    Foxy said:

    So Poulter wants 'NHS reform' does he ?

    He'll need more than good luck to get both Labour and the NHS to support that.

    Everyone supports reforming the NHS. They just have different reforms in mind.
    Some of those 'reforms' seem to be little more than spending ever more money and employing ever more people.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,683

    This is just one more reason why we need rid of this bunch of incompetents

    Rolls-Royce scales back plans to build nuclear factories in UK
    Curtailing comes after repeated delays to an ongoing government design competition

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/27/rolls-royce-plans-build-smr-water-vessel-factory-uk/

    I'm quite close to this and I can confirm RR is really pissed off at how HMG has fucked around and delayed on this.

    However, I think this is a British institutional thing with our government structures and civil service and not a political one. Labour certainly wouldn't be able to do it any faster.
    The long history of government run projects says hello.

    Some years ago a chap I worked with bid on a small piece of IT work. He sneaked into the contract a no changes clause - he could refuse changes. He delivered the work onto time and on budget. His description of the horror and anger when he rebuffed attempts at pointless changes.

    He actually accepted a couple of real changes.

  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930

    James O'Brien
    @mrjamesob
    ·
    1h
    Hours after Downing Street briefed friendly journalists that they'd had a great week, a former Minister defects to Labour...

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob

    Just like the end days of El Gord isn't it?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,644

    ydoethur said:

    Really? You have a bank near you?
    Good point. This is creepy , though
    It's nothing to worry about, people like me already have access to your bank accounts and everybody else's in the UK.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 9,872

    Leon said:

    Some generally pro-Ukraine accounts are reporting a significant Russian breakthrough

    No idea if it’s true. But the sources for this are unusual if it’s not true. Also no idea what “significant” means

    I see that warmonitor3 is reporting that. I stopped following that account when they reported a breakthrough at Robotyne, which ended up being a bit underwhelming. Certainly not what people normally think of as a breakthrough.

    Also, a bit strange that they don't say where.
    Let’s hope this is Russia’s Ludendorff offensive.
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,615

    ydoethur said:

    Really? You have a bank near you?
    Good point. This is creepy , though
    It's nothing to worry about, people like me already have access to your bank accounts and everybody else's in the UK.
    There are others like you?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,482

    ydoethur said:

    Really? You have a bank near you?
    Good point. This is creepy , though
    It's nothing to worry about, people like me already have access to your bank accounts and everybody else's in the UK.
    Horizon wouldn't be an improvement on whatever Centrica are using but it's very hard to imagine it could be much worse.
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    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,231
    GIN1138 said:

    James O'Brien
    @mrjamesob
    ·
    1h
    Hours after Downing Street briefed friendly journalists that they'd had a great week, a former Minister defects to Labour...

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob

    Just like the end days of El Gord isn't it?
    LAB got 260 in 2010. Rishi would be quite pleased with that in the GE!
  • Options
    ClippPClippP Posts: 1,706
    edited April 27
    He is right in his diagnosis, of course, but he is wrong in terms of his prescription. He should have gone over to the Lib Dems. You need a sound economy if you want to be able to spend money to help ordinary people.
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