Yet again Prime Minister Sunak has a bit of a shocker at PMQs. Leaden footed, crass and failure to think on his feet.
The PM always uses this opportunity to hold him to account as a vent at the opposition leader, particularly the last question - ‘twas ever thus. But, for some reason Sunak is rubbish at this part. He goes through his - presumably tested lines - each week with no alteration or nuance. What is the point?
I am sure he has said his line about Starmer’s u-turn on definition of a woman many times. Whatever you think about the point you’d imagine that the Prime Minister would have the smarts to omit it given the circumstances.
That with the thoughtless and offensive bet on flying asylum seekers to Africa just makes him look more of a prat than usual. How is the poor lamb going to cope during a campaign? He lost to Truss (who lost to a lettuce) the last time he give persuading people a go (albeit the people concerned were Conservative Party members). What chance has he with the general public?
This Government has got to stop using the trans community as a punchline at PMQs.
We @ToryReformGroup have consistently warned of this “othering” of one of the most marginalised communities in the U.K. We have seen recently what horrors some trans people have been subjected to.
This 100%. It doesn't just become wrong because the murdered girl's mum was there in person. She could still have seen it on TV. The girl herself probably saw these kinds of comments before she was killed. Her murderers probably did too. Politicians' words matter. Well done the Tory Reform Group for trying to get their party to stop weaponising this issue in this grotesque way.
Replying to @alexwickhamPM’s spokesperson doubles down on Sunak’s trans joke in front of Esther Ghey — declines to apologise — defends it as “legitimate”
My best guess is Sunak will try and make this into another round of making the press ask Starmer if "women can have a penis" and watching Starmer squirm because he is also willing to press the big transphobia button, but has the sense not to do it in front of a dead transgirl's mother or in LGBTQ+ History month. It's worked in the past, and many of this parish agree with it and fuel the flames of it.
I don't think he will get the chance. GBeebies people on TwiX are happy. Everyone else seems horrified.
My best guess is Sunak will try and make this into another round of making the press ask Starmer if "women can have a penis" and watching Starmer squirm because he is also willing to press the big transphobia button, but has the sense not to do it in front of a dead transgirl's mother or in LGBTQ+ History month. It's worked in the past, and many of this parish agree with it and fuel the flames of it.
I don't think he will get the chance. GBeebies people on TwiX are happy. Everyone else seems horrified.
Maybe - but if the British press are likely to be weirdly on the side of Rishi Sunak for anything I'm willing to bet it's transphobia
Replying to @alexwickhamPM’s spokesperson doubles down on Sunak’s trans joke in front of Esther Ghey — declines to apologise — defends it as “legitimate”
Yes, it is legitimate but that is no defence. He should really apologise. It was tactless and insensitive. Show some ruddy empathy for once, Sunak, you great twit.
I haven't seen much personal criticism of Sunak from those who know him well - in comparison to say Cameron (woman problem/flashman), Osborne (snide), Brown (rude/bullying), Johnson (where do we begin?).
He is however like me the product of a 1990s all boys boarding school. Very different to a previous generation but there is a certain crassness that can remain in the system.
What did Big Rish say? (Trying to buy BMW seats on FB and didn't see it.)
You'll have to watch the clip for the full effect.
- Murder victim (who happens to be Trans) mother is in the HoC - Starmer pays tribute - Sunak makes anti-woke culture war joke about definition of woman
@lewis_goodall No 10 doubling down. It’s a mistake. It’ll make ten times as big. And though they might think the public are frothing about the culture war, most will just think it’s indecent and poor taste. It’ll also alienate exactly the sort of MPs on whom Sunak relies in the party.
Replying to @alexwickhamPM’s spokesperson doubles down on Sunak’s trans joke in front of Esther Ghey — declines to apologise — defends it as “legitimate”
Yes, it is legitimate but that is no defence. He should really apologise. It was tactless and insensitive. Show some ruddy empathy for once, Sunak, you great twit.
I mean, there is zero difference between you and him right now. It isn't legitimate, it's a transphobic dogwhistle aimed at giving people like you red meat. Just because it makes your political position look like it's only held by heartless ghouls because he happened to say it in front on a dead girl's mother are you any way annoyed he said it.
The thing is, Sunak presumably supports trans rights. So, what's he supposed to apologise for?
That said, he's a bloody idiot for saying anything around that subject today.
He could apologise for being a twat (although it may get a little repetitive after a while).
The most problematic thing for Sunak is people just think he's an arsehole. Simple as that.
And he is. He's not stupid. He seems to be hard working. He is not exceptionally dishonest for a politician. He seems reasonably decisive. But, he's an arsehole and that taints everything else he says and does.
He is a technocrat and not in anyway a politician
Yes, I think he would have done better in a technocratic government such as Italy sometimes has when the politicians have screwed up more spectacularly than normal.
His arrogance, insularity and indifference make him completely unsuited for modern politics. I feel its time to bring out my Bill Clinton story again.
Joe Klein was watching Bill fight for some middle ground against Union members in NH, sort of Blair, third way sort of stuff. It wasn't popular but he held his ground. Klein had his daughter with him. As Clinton is leaving he sees them in the crowd and he goes to speak to the daughter, Amy. He says that he's the reason that she had not been seeing much of her daddy recently because he had been following him around. "But let me tell you Amy, he talks about you all the time."
Time for a rant. Did any party leader offer condolences to the mother of Shea Gordon? No? Really? Not 'trans' enough to get headlines? His murderers were jailed for life yesterday.
It increasingly feels like Rishi Sunak’s amorality and all-consuming avariciousness is rote in a way we’ve not quite seen before. There’s nowt but his ‘right’ to win, grab power. No character, opinions, beliefs (even bad ones). A distant echo of a man dropped into a PM’s suit
Chinese and Middle East shoppers will pay the non vat rate whether its in Paris or London. If we get more tax indirectly through the extra tourism and related jobs than we do from the vat on tourist shopping then its a no brainer to me. A good example where the answer is not left or right specific but context specific.
Keir Starmer will be meeting Brianna Ghey’s mother, Esther, at her request.
I mean this is the first person he has willingly met that he knew ahead of time is not trans exclusionary - he did his interview with Mumsnetters where he said he disagrees with Gillick and has defended his openly transphobic MPs to the hilt. SKS isn't just a U-turner; he's a full on Janus - and you can drop the j as well.
Wildly off topic, how on earth can a two bedroom apartment contain more than 200 boxes of stuff, and need a third 3.5t truck to transport it all? 🤷♂️
We have been in this house 30 years now. The idea of moving is quite terrifying.
It’s taken eight men a full day of packing and moving out, that after wifey and I spent the last two days preparing and moving out valuables, documents and clothes.
Now five days in an hotel apartment to lol forward to, before doing it all over again at the other end next week. Woo!!
I mean the "knowing the difference between a man and a woman" dogwhistle on the week of the Brianna Ghey judgement whilst her mother is in attendance for PMQs does kinda seem pretty shitty and transphobic - yeah.
Since Tim was mentioned..
And now literally called to apologise by an MP an refuses to do so... twat
Cleverley is a Bluto bearded boor who’d had a few drinks, what’s Rishi’s excuse?
Somehow this feels even worse then not saying anything
"This is the last question, he he says he wants to address a point to Brianna Ghey’s mother. He says:
I said earlier this week what happened was an unspeakable and shocking tragedy. And, as I said earlier this week, in the face of that for her mother to demonstrate the compassion and empathy that she did last weekend, I thought demonstrated the very best of humanity in the face of seeing the very worst of humanity, and she deserves all our admiration.
He does not apologise."
Of course not. If you apologise, you are admitting you did something wrong.
There is no such thing as a tourist tax. We simply ask that they pay the price everyone else does. Just encourages silly beggar my neighbour copying. For 'anti-London' read anti oligarch.
Wildly off topic, how on earth can a two bedroom apartment contain more than 200 boxes of stuff, and need a third 3.5t truck to transport it all? 🤷♂️
We have been in this house 30 years now. The idea of moving is quite terrifying.
It’s taken eight men a full day of packing and moving out, that after wifey and I spent the last two days preparing and moving out valuables, documents and clothes.
Now five days in an hotel apartment to lol forward to, before doing it all over again at the other end next week. Woo!!
If you are anything like us some of those 200 boxes will be in the garage for the next 20 years or so.
Keir Starmer will be meeting Brianna Ghey’s mother, Esther, at her request.
I mean this is the first person he has willingly met that he knew ahead of time is not trans exclusionary - he did his interview with Mumsnetters where he said he disagrees with Gillick and has defended his openly transphobic MPs to the hilt. SKS isn't just a U-turner; he's a full on Janus - and you can drop the j as well.
I do enjoy how the crank left attack the same issues as the crank right.
Chinese and Middle East shoppers will pay the non vat rate whether its in Paris or London. If we get more tax indirectly through the extra tourism and related jobs than we do from the vat on tourist shopping then its a no brainer to me. A good example where the answer is not left or right specific but context specific.
True, but the question was whether opening it up to europeans would alter the balance. If it did, upon leaving the customs union, we had to either ban EU passports from being used to reclaim (unfair) or abandon the scheme altogether.
Keir Starmer will be meeting Brianna Ghey’s mother, Esther, at her request.
I mean this is the first person he has willingly met that he knew ahead of time is not trans exclusionary - he did his interview with Mumsnetters where he said he disagrees with Gillick and has defended his openly transphobic MPs to the hilt. SKS isn't just a U-turner; he's a full on Janus - and you can drop the j as well.
Weird how you side with the right on so many issues.
Time for a rant. Did any party leader offer condolences to the mother of Shea Gordon? No? Really? Not 'trans' enough to get headlines? His murderers were jailed for life yesterday.
I have absolutely no idea what Rishi Sunak is doing in politics. I can only imagine that just as when the authorities at Winchester school told him he should be head boy, someone (a cruel person) told him he should be PM.
A spokeswoman for Keir Starmer said: "We don't think that the country wants or deserve a prime minister who thinks minorities are a punchbag. He should reflect on his comments and apologise."
I have absolutely no idea what Rishi Sunak is doing in politics. I can only imagine that just as when the authorities at Winchester school told him he should be head boy, someone (a cruel person) told him he should be PM.
Head boy / girl types never make for good PMs it seems. May was terrible in the role too, though perhaps for different reasons.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
I have absolutely no idea what Rishi Sunak is doing in politics. I can only imagine that just as when the authorities at Winchester school told him he should be head boy, someone (a cruel person) told him he should be PM.
Head boy / girl types never make for good PMs it seems. May was terrible in the role too, though perhaps for different reasons.
Are there any counter-examples?
I doubt it. "Biddable rule-taker with a desire to be seen as 'better than the plebs'" is not a great personality type for "leader".
Time for a rant. Did any party leader offer condolences to the mother of Shea Gordon? No? Really? Not 'trans' enough to get headlines? His murderers were jailed for life yesterday.
Yep, it's very obvious. But I'd add it's not just about the victim but also the perpetrator(s). Had Shea Gordon been murdered by white boys, it would have received a lot more attention.
Chinese and Middle East shoppers will pay the non vat rate whether its in Paris or London. If we get more tax indirectly through the extra tourism and related jobs than we do from the vat on tourist shopping then its a no brainer to me. A good example where the answer is not left or right specific but context specific.
True, but the question was whether opening it up to europeans would alter the balance. If it did, upon leaving the customs union, we had to either ban EU passports from being used to reclaim (unfair) or abandon the scheme altogether.
Replying to @alexwickhamPM’s spokesperson doubles down on Sunak’s trans joke in front of Esther Ghey — declines to apologise — defends it as “legitimate”
Yes, it is legitimate but that is no defence. He should really apologise. It was tactless and insensitive. Show some ruddy empathy for once, Sunak, you great twit.
I mean, there is zero difference between you and him right now. It isn't legitimate, it's a transphobic dogwhistle aimed at giving people like you red meat. Just because it makes your political position look like it's only held by heartless ghouls because he happened to say it in front on a dead girl's mother are you any way annoyed he said it.
It is perfectly legitimate and there is a debate to be had.
Yes, I am annoyed at the tactless way in which he said it and his doubling down.
Doesn't mean the issue is not one that needs addressing and the concerns of women listening to.
Main difference between this and 'bigotgate' is that Gordon Brown didn't know he was on a hot mic, and Rishi Sunak said it live on television.
In retrospect I feel a little sympathy for GB in that situation. He was obviously knackered, run down, depressed and had had another wearing encounter with the general public. He was wrong to call her a bigot - she wasn't (although she did sort of answer her own question asking where all the eastern europeans were coming from). But it was a hot mic and an unguarded moment, and he went out of his way to not just apologise publicly but also had a good long private meeting with her as well.
He was a very flawed man, with some bad ideas, driven to mad despair; enormously unsuited to the role he had craved for so long. But I don't think he was a bad person, or an arsehole, as Sunak has been pithily summed up below.
Main difference between this and 'bigotgate' is that Gordon Brown didn't know he was on a hot mic, and Rishi Sunak said it live on television.
In retrospect I feel a little sympathy for GB in that situation. He was obviously knackered, run down, depressed and had had another wearing encounter with the general public. He was wrong to call her a bigot - she wasn't (although she did sort of answer her own question asking where all the eastern europeans were coming from). But it was a hot mic and an unguarded moment, and he went out of his way to not just apologise publicly but also had a good long private meeting with her as well.
He was a very flawed man, with some bad ideas, driven to mad despair; enormously unsuited to the role he had craved for so long. But I don't think he was a bad person, or an arsehole, as Sunak has been pithily summed up below.
Disagree. Mrs Duffy was/is a bigot. Silly mistake by Brown saying it, but he was right about her.
Time for a rant. Did any party leader offer condolences to the mother of Shea Gordon? No? Really? Not 'trans' enough to get headlines? His murderers were jailed for life yesterday.
Yep, it's very obvious. But I'd add it's not just about the victim but also the perpetrator(s). Had Shea Gordon been murdered by white boys, it would have received a lot more attention.
I think Rushi Sunak’s continuing blunders are now raising questions about whether he can get through an election campaign without creating serious collateral damage for his party.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
Yes hopefully he will be back. I thought that while each individual poster responding to his views was reasonable the weight of them together might have felt like bullying, and triggered his extreme reaction. I hope he feels better and rejoins the fray. I do think we should think about what makes this an attractive venue to commune with people across the political spectrum - a key aspect is a degree of mutual respect and kindness that can be lacking elsewhere - and seek to maintain it, it is a precious thing.
A spokeswoman for Keir Starmer said: "We don't think that the country wants or deserve a prime minister who thinks minorities are a punchbag. He should reflect on his comments and apologise."
That's rich, coming from someone who campaigned at the last two elections for someone who thought exactly that to be PM.
I think it was @RMCunliffe who asked: if Sunak had stuck to the responsible-technocrat image that suits him much more than the right-leaning-culture-warrior, would he be any worse off in either the polls or with the parliamentary Tory party?
A spokeswoman for Keir Starmer said: "We don't think that the country wants or deserve a prime minister who thinks minorities are a punchbag. He should reflect on his comments and apologise."
That's rich, coming from someone who campaigned at the last two elections for someone who thought exactly that to be PM.
I take it the Labour Party can rely on your vote at the next election.
I think Rushi Sunak’s continuing blunders are now raising questions about whether he can get through an election campaign without creating serious collateral damage for his party.
Not an issue. Standard advice from CCHQ's Australian election consultants is to avoid interviews and the great unwashed, even if it means hiding in a fridge.
Time for a rant. Did any party leader offer condolences to the mother of Shea Gordon? No? Really? Not 'trans' enough to get headlines? His murderers were jailed for life yesterday.
Yep, it's very obvious. But I'd add it's not just about the victim but also the perpetrator(s). Had Shea Gordon been murdered by white boys, it would have received a lot more attention.
The media were all of that until it started to come out that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Yes, ethnicity and other characteristics of the criminal also have an effect. Again, there's more research from the US.
I find it sad the both left and right fixate on one person's sad murder and fail to even note anothers. Far sadder that pathetic attempts to point score over it (both left and right are doing this right now).
Sunak can't have failed to realise the furore his sick "joke" was bound to cause - he's not that stupid.
So it must therefore have been deliberate - cooked up between him and his advisors ahead of time, with the intention of shoring up his position by... er, appealing to bigots. Lovely.
Dog whistles are meant to produce a noise at too high a pitch for all but the intended recipients to notice. Today, everyone could hear what Rishi said, and they'll also have noticed his refusals to apologise.
It seems increasingly likely that the Tories will need more than a decade out of power to detoxify themselves.
My best guess is Sunak will try and make this into another round of making the press ask Starmer if "women can have a penis" and watching Starmer squirm because he is also willing to press the big transphobia button, but has the sense not to do it in front of a dead transgirl's mother or in LGBTQ+ History month. It's worked in the past, and many of this parish agree with it and fuel the flames of it.
Though at the end Sunak did express sorrow at the tragic death of Ghey, and did refer to her with feminine pronouns. As she was under 18, Brihana must have been pre-op in terms of genitalia so Sunak implicitly accepts that a woman can have a penis.
It was an astonishingly crass PMQs performance today. Surely there will be a VONC this spring.
I was looking through the script for an intro video we're doing for an upcoming conference. You know the sort: dramatic music, scratchy TV tuning effects, news pictures of dramatic and terrible things happening around the world, then some tenuous link with the topic of the actual conference.
It struck me that a lot of the dramatic end of world stuff was a bit old hat and that actually looking between the lines there are a few pieces of good news. There's no longer an energy crisis. Debt and Equity markets are pretty stable. Inflation and interest rates have peaked and inflation is now coming down globally. The US and China seem to be getting on a bit better. We feel a few steps further from Ukraine related nuclear armageddon than 2 years ago. The only really novel threats are the fallout from the Israel-Gaza conflict but we've been there many times before, the rise of AI, and the prospect of a Trump-induced trade war.
I told them to cut out some of the older hat stuff and focus on what's really new, and maybe even include a few good things.
With respect, your most pressing problem seems to be which colour stone you're going to go with in the refurb of your French vineyard garden wall. The vast majority of the UK population are still facing insane prices, higher mortgages and expensive energy. The roads are shite, no one can get a doctor's appointment and Dentists are rarer than sane Tories. It's grim out there.
*available* dentists; there are umpteen trillion unavailable ones, unless you pay, both of which makes it even more frustrating of course. 90% of them aren't taking on new NHS patients, IIRC.
Time for a rant. Did any party leader offer condolences to the mother of Shea Gordon? No? Really? Not 'trans' enough to get headlines? His murderers were jailed for life yesterday.
Yep, it's very obvious. But I'd add it's not just about the victim but also the perpetrator(s). Had Shea Gordon been murdered by white boys, it would have received a lot more attention.
The media were all of that until it started to come out that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Yes, ethnicity and other characteristics of the criminal also have an effect. Again, there's more research from the US.
I find it sad the both left and right fixate on one person's sad murder and fail to even note anothers. Far sadder that pathetic attempts to point score over it (both left and right are doing this right now).
There are about 2 murders a day. How would any of them get attention if all of them are to be mandated equal attention?
(That is assuming only UK murders deserve attention, if all global murders need equal attention then there are over 1000 a day).
My best guess is Sunak will try and make this into another round of making the press ask Starmer if "women can have a penis" and watching Starmer squirm because he is also willing to press the big transphobia button, but has the sense not to do it in front of a dead transgirl's mother or in LGBTQ+ History month. It's worked in the past, and many of this parish agree with it and fuel the flames of it.
Though at the end Sunak did express sorrow at the tragic death of Ghey, and did refer to her with feminine pronouns. As she was under 18, Brihana must have been pre-op in terms of genitalia so Sunak implicitly accepts that a woman can have a penis.
It was an astonishingly crass PMQs performance today. Surely there will be a VONC this spring.
Err, no. I would use whatever pronouns someone asked me to use. Doesn't mean I think they are or are not a woman.
Replying to @alexwickhamPM’s spokesperson doubles down on Sunak’s trans joke in front of Esther Ghey — declines to apologise — defends it as “legitimate”
Yes, it is legitimate but that is no defence. He should really apologise. It was tactless and insensitive. Show some ruddy empathy for once, Sunak, you great twit.
I mean, there is zero difference between you and him right now. It isn't legitimate, it's a transphobic dogwhistle aimed at giving people like you red meat. Just because it makes your political position look like it's only held by heartless ghouls because he happened to say it in front on a dead girl's mother are you any way annoyed he said it.
It is perfectly legitimate and there is a debate to be had.
Yes, I am annoyed at the tactless way in which he said it and his doubling down.
Doesn't mean the issue is not one that needs addressing and the concerns of women listening to.
There are a bazillion legitimate questions for us to sort out about the rights of trans people and how they should interact with the rights of others. Especially those who have reason to fear abuses of trans rights or the dilution of their identity.
What's not legitimate is to say that the number of trans people is zero, or that these non existent people don't have rights. And when someone says "X doesn't know what a woman is", that only makes sense if you deny the possibility that trans people exist. Once that possibly is acknowledged, then it's at least a little bit complicated.
As for Rishi, high office reveals character, and his is turning out to not be very nice. One of the occupational hazards of being a nerdy mathmo is to forget that those numbers have actual people behind them. (Speaking as a nerdy mathmo.)
Same for culture warriors- just because there isn't a physical battle, it doesn't stop real people getting hurt.
What did Big Rish say? (Trying to buy BMW seats on FB and didn't see it.)
You'll have to watch the clip for the full effect.
- Murder victim (who happens to be Trans) mother is in the HoC - Starmer pays tribute - Sunak makes anti-woke culture war joke about definition of woman
If we hadn't had the Truss Experience to compare him to I think people would be judging Sunak a lot more harshly.
The scariest thing might be that even with the benefit of hindsight Truss and Sunak were both comfortably in the top half performers in Bozo's cabinet, probably both in the top quarter. How bad would the others have been!?
John Bruton, former Taoiseach of Ireland, died yesterday...
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
Yes hopefully he will be back. I thought that while each individual poster responding to his views was reasonable the weight of them together might have felt like bullying, and triggered his extreme reaction. I hope he feels better and rejoins the fray. I do think we should think about what makes this an attractive venue to commune with people across the political spectrum - a key aspect is a degree of mutual respect and kindness that can be lacking elsewhere - and seek to maintain it, it is a precious thing.
Telling people how to refer to the unelected spongers that rule over all of us from their literal palace and throne of gold is not something I have much time for, nor consider particularly respectful. If Casino wants to be an aristocratic boot licker, that's down to them. But trying to make others do so is extremely aggravating and he can do one.
My best guess is Sunak will try and make this into another round of making the press ask Starmer if "women can have a penis" and watching Starmer squirm because he is also willing to press the big transphobia button, but has the sense not to do it in front of a dead transgirl's mother or in LGBTQ+ History month. It's worked in the past, and many of this parish agree with it and fuel the flames of it.
Though at the end Sunak did express sorrow at the tragic death of Ghey, and did refer to her with feminine pronouns. As she was under 18, Brihana must have been pre-op in terms of genitalia so Sunak implicitly accepts that a woman can have a penis.
It was an astonishingly crass PMQs performance today. Surely there will be a VONC this spring.
To think we're, in the UK, collectively in the position where the nature of a single named person's genitalia has become matter for political argument.
But one of the saddest things about any murder is how it [edit] has so often made someone's life fair game and allows people to declare open season for raking it over.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh I get the horrible feeling that a media row about “what is a woman” is precisely the row Number 10 wants to have.
It is, but most people care more about their mortgage or whether their local school is collapsing than other people's willies/fannies when it comes to choosing who ought to run the country.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
I have met quite a few people IRL to buy and sell stuff after getting to know them on car/motorbike forums and FB groups. In my experience, people are pretty much like they are online.
The exception was somebody I tried to buy a Mk.6 GTI from, when I got to the house he was clearly about 16 and the car clearly belonged to his (presumably holidaying) parents.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
Rishi's joke today falls in the opposite category. A deliberately "goady joke" made in public that he would, (I think, could be wrong), be very unlikely to make privately or anonymously.
Wildly off topic, how on earth can a two bedroom apartment contain more than 200 boxes of stuff, and need a third 3.5t truck to transport it all? 🤷♂️
We have been in this house 30 years now. The idea of moving is quite terrifying.
It’s taken eight men a full day of packing and moving out, that after wifey and I spent the last two days preparing and moving out valuables, documents and clothes.
Now five days in an hotel apartment to lol forward to, before doing it all over again at the other end next week. Woo!!
If you are anything like us some of those 200 boxes will be in the garage for the next 20 years or so.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
I have absolutely no idea what Rishi Sunak is doing in politics. I can only imagine that just as when the authorities at Winchester school told him he should be head boy, someone (a cruel person) told him he should be PM.
Head boy / girl types never make for good PMs it seems. May was terrible in the role too, though perhaps for different reasons.
Are there any counter-examples?
Harold Wilson. Always the exception to any "over-achievers don't do well in politics" generalisation, but almost certainly the only one.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
I have met quite a few people IRL to buy and sell stuff after getting to know them on car/motorbike forums and FB groups. In my experience, people are pretty much like they are online.
The exception was somebody I tried to buy a Mk.6 GTI from, when I got to the house he was clearly about 16 and the car clearly belonged to his (presumably holidaying) parents.
During the pandemic I was an absolute dick on Twitter, even more so than I am on here. I would just want to start an argument. I was an actual and factual troll. The pandemic mentally did me in and my outlet for the anger and frustration I felt was arguing with the innocent denizens of Twitter. I was part of the problem. I've banned myself from the platform now because I was, personally, aiding its decent into the cesspool it has become. Sorry!
Replying to @alexwickhamPM’s spokesperson doubles down on Sunak’s trans joke in front of Esther Ghey — declines to apologise — defends it as “legitimate”
Yes, it is legitimate but that is no defence. He should really apologise. It was tactless and insensitive. Show some ruddy empathy for once, Sunak, you great twit.
I mean, there is zero difference between you and him right now. It isn't legitimate, it's a transphobic dogwhistle aimed at giving people like you red meat. Just because it makes your political position look like it's only held by heartless ghouls because he happened to say it in front on a dead girl's mother are you any way annoyed he said it.
It is perfectly legitimate and there is a debate to be had.
Yes, I am annoyed at the tactless way in which he said it and his doubling down.
Doesn't mean the issue is not one that needs addressing and the concerns of women listening to.
What's the debate? Do trans people exist, and are they a threat to womanhood? Fuck that debate - they exist, and no they aren't.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
I have met quite a few people IRL to buy and sell stuff after getting to know them on car/motorbike forums and FB groups. In my experience, people are pretty much like they are online.
The exception was somebody I tried to buy a Mk.6 GTI from, when I got to the house he was clearly about 16 and the car clearly belonged to his (presumably holidaying) parents.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh I get the horrible feeling that a media row about “what is a woman” is precisely the row Number 10 wants to have.
Missing the point. It was the insensitivity of doing it while Brianna's mother was in the chamber. It is exactly the type of argument most Britons (I think) don't want. Most of us are intrinsically live and let live and have no interest in the polarisation that has occurred. The culture war shite is all No 10 have at the mo and it palpably isn't working.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh I get the horrible feeling that a media row about “what is a woman” is precisely the row Number 10 wants to have.
Sunak will get positive headlines in the Mail, Express and Telegraph, as well as support from GB News. Unfortunately for him, most people don’t read the Mail, Express or Telegraph, or watch GB News.
One of the more run of the mill Trumpworld acquaintances.
Trump Pardon Recipient Fined $20 Million in Predatory Lending Case ... "Mr. Braun’s family relied on its connections to the family of Jared Kushner to help open the doors of the White House and ultimately have his case brought before Mr. Trump." https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1755221427182096816
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
I'm a republican too, with similar, if less trenchant, views. The thing is, though, I don't see the point in arguing with a passionate monarchist such as Casino, who's entitled to his views.
Why didn't you (and others) just ignore his posts rather than winding him up? It was all a bit pointless, and nearly led to the outbreak of WW 3 yesterday.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh I get the horrible feeling that a media row about “what is a woman” is precisely the row Number 10 wants to have.
Missing the point. It was the insensitivity of doing it while Brianna's mother was in the chamber. It is exactly the type of argument most Britons (I think) don't want. Most of us are intrinsically live and let live and have no interest in the polarisation that has occurred. The culture war shite is all No 10 have at the mo and it palpably isn't working.
Even worse if they think you are doing a bad job on the things that matter to them like health, tax, the economy, crime, migration, education, housing, environment, infrastructure, investment, care and ........
For those tempted to think that Rishi's comments today are some kind of 4D chess of masterful political triangulation, I'd point you to his political track record to date.
I'm sure it was planned (the line itself, with its alliteration and whatnot, is clearly prewritten) but as ever he has chosen to piss directly into the wind and is already getting the facial uric blowback. The man is truly inept.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
You and Charles shit in public? That's a bit entitled.
Have you thought, @Leon, that this board might actually be representative of the country? And there are very few right-wingers left?
Even I wouldn't go that far. 40% of the country voted Labour in 2017, and 32% in 2019 - I don't think anywhere near that number of posters here supported Corbyn's Labour at that time. I would guess this forum is disproportionately older, wealthier, and male than the electorate as a whole.
And fortunately, therefore less likely to vote for an anti-Semite to be PM.
Jeremy Corbyn was not personally antisemitic. Speaking of which, did you see that anti-Zionism is now a protected characteristic?
I've been anticipating this, although with a degree of dread. You will recall my stance regarding British free-speech (it doesn't exist and can only be understood as an expression of power) and given the growth of UK antisemitism it was inevitable somebody would try this.
The Equality Act has a problem: it freezes morality as it existed in 2010. But morality changes over time. The techniques evolved by gender-critical proponents (establish the contra-belief as a protected belief, then logically extend the expression of that belief by a person to a protected characteristic, then voila!) can be extended to other characteristics as they become unfashionable over time, enabling the Equality Act to be worked around/subverted/just plain ignored if you have sufficient money and time. I don't think people have worked this out yet.
People's stances on the trans issue depend on their opinions of trans people. But if you pull out and look at the arguments from a distance they afford a fascinating, if not necessarily pleasant, insight into how morality and politics works in the UK. You will recall the saying about never looking too closely at the sausage factory
Doubtless @Leon was chuckling away at Sunak’s quip at Starmer at PMQs. Loves a laugh does our Leon.
Loved it. Mega Bantz
I actually suspect he put it in JUST FOR ME
Nice one, Rishirooney
May you fall from an extremely high height and have a long time to contemplate smacking into the ground.
IT WAS A JOKE
I was riffing off the weird PB idea that my opinion even matters, like Rishi consults me to see if I guffaw at his jibes
FWIW I think what he said was crass, unfunny and simply weird in its mistiming. He suffers from a really bad Tin Ear, he has quite low emotional intellligence. Think back to his "actually I don't know any working class people" line as a young man, you can kinda see what he meant by it, but it came over terribly
He is still that guy, I suspect. Highly intelligent, scholarly and hard working, an ideal technocrat (as others have noted) but prone to daft and awkward remarks because he doesn't see how they come over
He's not the worst PM in history, he is capable, well meaning, a little ruthless maybe, but he lacks that essential EQ
For those tempted to think that Rishi's comments today are some kind of 4D chess of masterful political triangulation, I'd point you to his political track record to date.
I'm sure it was planned (the line itself, with its alliteration and whatnot, is clearly prewritten) but as ever he has chosen to piss directly into the wind and is already getting the facial uric blowback. The man is truly inept.
He is sitting in Downing Street right now while all his SPADs tell him how great it was
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
I'm a republican too, with similar, if less trenchant, views. The thing is, though, I don't see the point in arguing with a passionate monarchist such as Casino, who's entitled to his views.
Why didn't you (and others) just ignore his posts rather than winding him up? It was all a bit pointless.
Actually it was the CR jumped very unpleasantly on 148 for saying 'Chaz' in an otherwise unexceptional post. Only conclusion is that 148 had sinned for not saying 'His Most Gracious M ajesty Charles III Rex, Defensor Fidei, etc. etc.', ie that he had to do just as CR wanted.
I heard the start of PMQs on my way to swimming, and my goodness. Sunak's a shit.
I haven't read all the thread, so I'll just say one point: this put's Ghey's mother into a difficult situation. The media will want to know her reaction to this, and I guess she, like most of us, has had zero training in how to deal with the media. I can only hope the media are kind and understanding now her daughter's death has become even more political.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh I get the horrible feeling that a media row about “what is a woman” is precisely the row Number 10 wants to have.
Sunak will get positive headlines in the Mail, Express and Telegraph, as well as support from GB News. Unfortunately for him, most people don’t read the Mail, Express or Telegraph, or watch GB News.
Mail circulation only around 700000 now down from over 2 million a few years ago.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
You and Charles shit in public? That's a bit entitled.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
I'm a republican too, with similar, if less trenchant, views. The thing is, though, I don't see the point in arguing with a passionate monarchist such as Casino, who's entitled to his views.
Why didn't you (and others) just ignore his posts rather than winding him up? It was all a bit pointless, and nearly led to the outbreak of WW 3 yesterday.
I would like to see CR back but it all kicked off because someone called Charles, Chaz. Seriously Allie, I think your argument could be more easily applied in reverse.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
You and Charles shit in public? That's a bit entitled.
Ha that's how I read it too.
Complete with fur-lined khazis and Grooms of the Stool.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh I get the horrible feeling that a media row about “what is a woman” is precisely the row Number 10 wants to have.
Sunak will get positive headlines in the Mail, Express and Telegraph, as well as support from GB News. Unfortunately for him, most people don’t read the Mail, Express or Telegraph, or watch GB News.
Mail circulation only around 700000 now down from over 2 million a few years ago.
It is in the top ten most visited English-speaking websites in the world, which - these days - is a far more important metric
I heard the start of PMQs on my way to swimming, and my goodness. Sunak's a shit.
I haven't read all the thread, so I'll just say one point: this put's Ghey's mother into a difficult situation. The media will want to know her reaction to this, and I guess she, like most of us, has had zero training in how to deal with the media. I can only hope the media are kind and understanding now her daughter's death has become even more political.
Yeah, right...
She has conducted herself with incredible dignity throughout such an awful time. I think she will be fine, leaving aside whether she should be put in the situation to start with.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh I get the horrible feeling that a media row about “what is a woman” is precisely the row Number 10 wants to have.
Sunak will get positive headlines in the Mail, Express and Telegraph, as well as support from GB News. Unfortunately for him, most people don’t read the Mail, Express or Telegraph, or watch GB News.
Mail circulation only around 700000 now down from over 2 million a few years ago.
It is in the top ten most visited English-speaking websites in the world, which - these days - is a far more important metric
Yes but those visitors will likely only read the odd article.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
I'm a republican too, with similar, if less trenchant, views. The thing is, though, I don't see the point in arguing with a passionate monarchist such as Casino, who's entitled to his views.
Why didn't you (and others) just ignore his posts rather than winding him up? It was all a bit pointless, and nearly led to the outbreak of WW 3 yesterday.
Because he's a thin-skinned, sanctimonious bully. If you can't take it, don't deal it.
Continuing on from the discussion yesterday about PR - it's interesting to see who it might benefit the most (this is not a question about PR, but it is an attempt to see what people might vote if FPTP was not an issue):
Do you ever get the feeling that both the Republicans and Democrats are tryimg to lose the Presidential Election?
As a Septugenarian myself, it looks like it. Polls show that Biden will beat Trump but lose to Haley, yet the GOP will insist on electing the brainless one as their candidate. Onyl Haley seems to have functioning brain tissue and Biden can't be hidden forever. He'll wander off on his own soon and the secret will be out.
If they both avoid the man with the scythe, I just hope they pick a good deputy.
Time for a rant. Did any party leader offer condolences to the mother of Shea Gordon? No? Really? Not 'trans' enough to get headlines? His murderers were jailed for life yesterday.
As ever, only certain crimes get the attention.
Whilst you are correct, it does have to be pointed out that Sunak did not accuse Starmer of being insufficiently anti-Shea in front of Shea's mother. There's being right and being brutal, and Sunak seems to be going the full Trump.
Tom Harwood @tomhfh I get the horrible feeling that a media row about “what is a woman” is precisely the row Number 10 wants to have.
Sunak will get positive headlines in the Mail, Express and Telegraph, as well as support from GB News. Unfortunately for him, most people don’t read the Mail, Express or Telegraph, or watch GB News.
Mail circulation only around 700000 now down from over 2 million a few years ago.
What is this circulation thing you speak of? A new tracking metric or a prehistoric counting method for passed its sell by date media?
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
You and Charles shit in public? That's a bit entitled.
To be fair, we'll all get to do it as well, the way things are going with local authorities.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
I'm a republican too, with similar, if less trenchant, views. The thing is, though, I don't see the point in arguing with a passionate monarchist such as Casino, who's entitled to his views.
Why didn't you (and others) just ignore his posts rather than winding him up? It was all a bit pointless, and nearly led to the outbreak of WW 3 yesterday.
Because he's a thin-skinned, sanctimonious bully. If you can't take it, don't deal it.
And you evidently are the same?
CR's been a little off with me in the past as well - sometimes quite hilariously. I've almost certainly been 'off' with him at times as well. But AFAIR CR has stated that he does have problems with his mental health, and kicking someone when they're obviously down isn't a good look.
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
James Bond is ace. Moonraker is the best film.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
In my undergraduate days I caused a bit of annoyance due to my position on the royals - I went to the debate society and refused to engage in any of the economic or tradition arguments of the royals and going straight for the absurd - the idea they have "magic special blood" - because, at the end of the day, that is what every argument for them really is defending.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
I'm a republican too, with similar, if less trenchant, views. The thing is, though, I don't see the point in arguing with a passionate monarchist such as Casino, who's entitled to his views.
Why didn't you (and others) just ignore his posts rather than winding him up? It was all a bit pointless, and nearly led to the outbreak of WW 3 yesterday.
Because monarchism offends me in such a core way, right to the bone. No one is special because of their blood. And if you believe they are, you and they deserve to be belittled. And if Casino has a problem with that and wants to jog around a car park together to manage his feelings, I'm happy to bring a picnic basket.
Comments
The PM always uses this opportunity to hold him to account as a vent at the opposition leader, particularly the last question - ‘twas ever thus. But, for some reason Sunak is rubbish at this part. He goes through his - presumably tested lines - each week with no alteration or nuance. What is the point?
I am sure he has said his line about Starmer’s u-turn on definition of a woman many times. Whatever you think about the point you’d imagine that the Prime Minister would have the smarts to omit it given the circumstances.
That with the thoughtless and offensive bet on flying asylum seekers to Africa just makes him look more of a prat than usual. How is the poor lamb going to cope during a campaign? He lost to Truss (who lost to a lettuce) the last time he give persuading people a go (albeit the people concerned were Conservative Party members). What chance has he with the general public?
He stubbornly refuses to learn...
@alexwickham
Replying to @alexwickhamPM’s spokesperson doubles down on Sunak’s trans joke in front of Esther Ghey — declines to apologise — defends it as “legitimate”
He is however like me the product of a 1990s all boys boarding school. Very different to a previous generation but there is a certain crassness that can remain in the system.
No 10 doubling down. It’s a mistake. It’ll make ten times as big. And though they might think the public are frothing about the culture war, most will just think it’s indecent and poor taste. It’ll also alienate exactly the sort of MPs on whom Sunak relies in the party.
His arrogance, insularity and indifference make him completely unsuited for modern politics. I feel its time to bring out my Bill Clinton story again.
Joe Klein was watching Bill fight for some middle ground against Union members in NH, sort of Blair, third way sort of stuff. It wasn't popular but he held his ground. Klein had his daughter with him. As Clinton is leaving he sees them in the crowd and he goes to speak to the daughter, Amy.
He says that he's the reason that she had not been seeing much of her daddy recently because he had been following him around. "But let me tell you Amy, he talks about you all the time."
Now that's a politician.
Levelling up is clearly a thing of the past.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/hunt-knows-he-must-scrap-the-tourist-tax-but-the-politics-are-tricky/ar-BB1hNpcI?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=a99653ebf98341caaa0497ea84001ae0&ei=17
Keir Starmer will be meeting Brianna Ghey’s mother, Esther, at her request.
No?
Really?
Not 'trans' enough to get headlines? His murderers were jailed for life yesterday.
As ever, only certain crimes get the attention.
It increasingly feels like Rishi Sunak’s amorality and all-consuming avariciousness is rote in a way we’ve not quite seen before. There’s nowt but his ‘right’ to win, grab power. No character, opinions, beliefs (even bad ones). A distant echo of a man dropped into a PM’s suit
Now five days in an hotel apartment to lol forward to, before doing it all over again at the other end next week. Woo!!
Main difference between this and 'bigotgate' is that Gordon Brown didn't know he was on a hot mic, and Rishi Sunak said it live on television.
I have absolutely no idea what Rishi Sunak is doing in politics. I can only imagine that just as when the authorities at Winchester school told him he should be head boy, someone (a cruel person) told him he should be PM.
A spokeswoman for Keir Starmer said: "We don't think that the country wants or deserve a prime minister who thinks minorities are a punchbag. He should reflect on his comments and apologise."
Are there any counter-examples?
He had a weird moment yesterday whereby he offered out a poster and then immediately flounced off. He had sad before that he struggles to sleep due to having very young children, so this was probably to blame.
The guy can be a pompous arse at times (especially when it comes to royal matters). But he is an intelligent guy and can be very insightful. Also likes James Bond and trains, so clearly a good egg.
A good example is Sasha Johnson:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasha_Johnson
The media were all of that until it started to come out that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
https://data.london.gov.uk/blog/the-impact-of-ending-tax-free-shopping-on-the-uk-and-london-economies/
In Canada they think it pays for the exempt VAT by 1.9:1
Yes, I am annoyed at the tactless way in which he said it and his doubling down.
Doesn't mean the issue is not one that needs addressing and the concerns of women listening to.
He was a very flawed man, with some bad ideas, driven to mad despair; enormously unsuited to the role he had craved for so long. But I don't think he was a bad person, or an arsehole, as Sunak has been pithily summed up below.
I think Rushi Sunak’s continuing blunders are now raising questions about whether he can get through an election campaign without creating serious collateral damage for his party.
His point though, although it was somewhat extreme offering someone out to make it, is that people will say stuff online that they would never dare say to anyone’s face in public. You do not know the person you are abusing or trying to wind up. You do not know how it will impact them.
I think that is certainly the case of many people here. Dura Ace would be the exception of course. I think he would probably say more in public.
So, yes, he flounced and it was not edifying but I get the frustration. Some people here just like to bait and taunt and also deliberately misrepresent. He just seemed to tire of it yesterday.
I think it was @RMCunliffe who asked: if Sunak had stuck to the responsible-technocrat image that suits him much more than the right-leaning-culture-warrior, would he be any worse off in either the polls or with the parliamentary Tory party?
Very much doubt it.
So it must therefore have been deliberate - cooked up between him and his advisors ahead of time, with the intention of shoring up his position by... er, appealing to bigots. Lovely.
Dog whistles are meant to produce a noise at too high a pitch for all but the intended recipients to notice. Today, everyone could hear what Rishi said, and they'll also have noticed his refusals to apologise.
It seems increasingly likely that the Tories will need more than a decade out of power to detoxify themselves.
It was an astonishingly crass PMQs performance today. Surely there will be a VONC this spring.
(That is assuming only UK murders deserve attention, if all global murders need equal attention then there are over 1000 a day).
What's not legitimate is to say that the number of trans people is zero, or that these non existent people don't have rights. And when someone says "X doesn't know what a woman is", that only makes sense if you deny the possibility that trans people exist. Once that possibly is acknowledged, then it's at least a little bit complicated.
As for Rishi, high office reveals character, and his is turning out to not be very nice. One of the occupational hazards of being a nerdy mathmo is to forget that those numbers have actual people behind them. (Speaking as a nerdy mathmo.)
Same for culture warriors- just because there isn't a physical battle, it doesn't stop real people getting hurt.
Tom Harwood
@tomhfh
I get the horrible feeling that a media row about “what is a woman” is precisely the row Number 10 wants to have.
I actually suspect he put it in JUST FOR ME
Nice one, Rishirooney
But one of the saddest things about any murder is how it [edit] has so often made someone's life fair game and allows people to declare open season for raking it over.
Others, such as @ping and @Alistair , have deserted the site it seems.
The exception was somebody I tried to buy a Mk.6 GTI from, when I got to the house he was clearly about 16 and the car clearly belonged to his (presumably holidaying) parents.
I have, indeed, called the monarchs unelected spongers in public (indeed, even with my grandparents who mostly agree if had a soft spot for Lizzie) and I would happily say the same things in a public setting. I can't remember if I have said Charles and I shit the same in public - but I did use a less scatological summary of the "do we not all bleed" argument in arguing that monarchs are just mere mortals too.
Trump Pardon Recipient Fined $20 Million in Predatory Lending Case ... "Mr. Braun’s family relied on its connections to the family of Jared Kushner to help open the doors of the White House and ultimately have his case brought before Mr. Trump."
https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1755221427182096816
Why didn't you (and others) just ignore his posts rather than winding him up? It was all a bit pointless, and nearly led to the outbreak of WW 3 yesterday.
I'm sure it was planned (the line itself, with its alliteration and whatnot, is clearly prewritten) but as ever he has chosen to piss directly into the wind and is already getting the facial uric blowback. The man is truly inept.
The Equality Act has a problem: it freezes morality as it existed in 2010. But morality changes over time. The techniques evolved by gender-critical proponents (establish the contra-belief as a protected belief, then logically extend the expression of that belief by a person to a protected characteristic, then voila!) can be extended to other characteristics as they become unfashionable over time, enabling the Equality Act to be worked around/subverted/just plain ignored if you have sufficient money and time. I don't think people have worked this out yet.
People's stances on the trans issue depend on their opinions of trans people. But if you pull out and look at the arguments from a distance they afford a fascinating, if not necessarily pleasant, insight into how morality and politics works in the UK. You will recall the saying about never looking too closely at the sausage factory
I was riffing off the weird PB idea that my opinion even matters, like Rishi consults me to see if I guffaw at his jibes
FWIW I think what he said was crass, unfunny and simply weird in its mistiming. He suffers from a really bad Tin Ear, he has quite low emotional intellligence. Think back to his "actually I don't know any working class people" line as a young man, you can kinda see what he meant by it, but it came over terribly
He is still that guy, I suspect. Highly intelligent, scholarly and hard working, an ideal technocrat (as others have noted) but prone to daft and awkward remarks because he doesn't see how they come over
He's not the worst PM in history, he is capable, well meaning, a little ruthless maybe, but he lacks that essential EQ
I haven't read all the thread, so I'll just say one point: this put's Ghey's mother into a difficult situation. The media will want to know her reaction to this, and I guess she, like most of us, has had zero training in how to deal with the media. I can only hope the media are kind and understanding now her daughter's death has become even more political.
Yeah, right...
https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1755215366064582932
🗳️ How Brits would vote if all parties had an equal chance of winning in their area:
🟥 LAB 34% (-10)
🟦 CON 21% (-7)
🟩 GRN 19% (+13)
🟧 LD 12% (+1)
🟪 REF 8% (+1)
As a Septugenarian myself, it looks like it. Polls show that Biden will beat Trump but lose to Haley, yet the GOP will insist on electing the brainless one as their candidate. Onyl Haley seems to have functioning brain tissue and Biden can't be hidden forever. He'll wander off on his own soon and the secret will be out.
If they both avoid the man with the scythe, I just hope they pick a good deputy.
mail website has about 25m readers per month.
CR's been a little off with me in the past as well - sometimes quite hilariously. I've almost certainly been 'off' with him at times as well. But AFAIR CR has stated that he does have problems with his mental health, and kicking someone when they're obviously down isn't a good look.