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Why not relax, and converse into the night on the day’s events in PB NightHawks.
Comments
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First again!0
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Green Party Leader Natalie Bennett: Ukip voters are “simply lashing out” like “a small child”
Says the loony toon who wants to remove all immigration controls.0 -
11 is interesting.
So Dave was right about gay marriage it seems, though I think even the kippers are coming round to it. Small c conservatism is fading.0 -
It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but what's Ed's thinking?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....0 -
Ironic coming from a party very keen on direct action when it suits them.manofkent2014 said:Green Party Leader Natalie Bennett: Ukip voters are “simply lashing out” like “a small child”
Says the loony toon who wants to remove all immigration controls.0 -
Let's suppose that over the next 6 weeks leading up to Christmas, the Tories were to establish a clear and consistent pattern of a 3% - 5% lead in the polls, what are the chances of:
(i) A belated putsch against Miliband or
(ii) Miliband resigns as Labour leader.
Next to nil in both cases I suspect, but it would be interesting to hear what Labourites think.0 -
Not you too Roger! First SO, then BenM and now you.Roger said:It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but Ed?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....0 -
Roger said:
It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but what's Ed's thinking?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....
I think there is a lot of doubt that Brown was an excellent Chancellor.0 -
There's a very great deal of doubt that Brown was 'an outstanding chancellor'. he was certainly an outstanding political operator but that's a different thing.Roger said:It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but Ed?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....
But you're right about Ed.0 -
When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade.Roger said:It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but what's Ed's thinking?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....0 -
There'd be a certain Basil who'd be in dire need of medical attention.peter_from_putney said:Let's suppose that over the next 6 weeks leading up to Christmas, the Tories were to establish a clear and consistent pattern of a 3% - 5% lead in the polls, what are the chances of:
(i) A belated putsch against Miliband or
(ii) Miliband resigns as Labour leader.
Next to nil in both cases I suspect, but it would be interesting to hear what Labourites think.
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Tonight's friendly matches:
Norway are losing against Iceland
Netherlands are losing against Mexico
Argentina are losing against Croatia
Iceland and Belgium is currently 1-10 -
Article 4 is certainly a good article for those of us on the Left who are sick of Labour having nothing to offer except "we're not the Tories".
I agree that Ed Miliband does potentially have the bare bones of a good argument to make which WOULD be accepted by the public - that big businesses and the super-rich are just being allowed to speed too far away from us, and they must be reined in for the sake of the rest of us - but he and the other prats in the shadow cabinet (Ed Balls especially) are just too scared to actually follow through with the policies that are needed. They're just going to have to grit their teeth and put up with the taunts of "Marxists!" and "lurch to the left!" from the idiot media and the business establishment themselves, because we can see now that the alternative (having nothing to say whatsoever) is going to mean even their core support leeching away, never mind the "centre-ground" voters.0 -
Why is the nighthawks thread starting earlier and earlier ?
Are we on audreyanne's dinner party timing schedule or something ?
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Sorry Jonathan. I was so pissed off with his performance yesterday at the CBI conference that I just gave up. (I love your no right turn. Why can't Ed think of something as eye-catching?)0
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..... or a meringue pie.TheScreamingEagles said:
When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade.Roger said:It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but what's Ed's thinking?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....0 -
Yeah Brown's plan was to get Ed to write his manifesto for him......Roger said:It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but what's Ed's thinking?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....
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Was 9.15 yesterday.another_richard said:Why is the nighthawks thread starting earlier and earlier ?
Are we on audreyanne's dinner party timing schedule or something ?
The last thread was approaching 600 comments, so save server costs I launched nighthawks now.
Plus, I want an early night tonight.0 -
As a non Ed supporter, I wouldn't argue that big business and the super rich are getting away with too much.Danny565 said:Article 4 is certainly a good article for those of us on the Left who are sick of Labour having nothing to offer except "we're not the Tories".
I agree that Ed Miliband does potentially have the bare bones of a good argument to make which WOULD be accepted by the public - that big businesses and the super-rich are just being allowed to speed too far away from us, and they must be reined in for the sake of the rest of us - but he and the other prats in the shadow cabinet (Ed Balls especially) are just too scared to actually follow through with the policies that are needed.
The first essential is to prevent tax avoidance and tax evasion. The former requires regulations and laws and international agreements. The Amazons and Philip Greenes of this world need to contribute to the societies that fund them. The latter is difficult, as it includes illegal practices, which can be hard to track down when the perpetrators are more professional than the enforcers.0 -
Is there any imported wealth generated elsewhere - personal or company -that is parked in Britain avoiding taxes outside the UK and paying them here instead?
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@another_richard
If the government's response to the despicable child rape saga in Rotherham is as it seems, ie the square root of eff all, then I will be livid.
If, as I long to believe, there's far more going on behind the scenes and we'll soon see the fruits of their efforts then I can understand on a number of levels why they would have been so reticent about revealing what they're up to.
You don't have to think too far back to remember when angry mobs were attacking paediatricians. It's not hard to imagine that similar mobs would be attacking all kinds of Yorkshire Asians.
The time being taken may well be a direct consequence of the depths that they have discovered that this scandal reaches, and a justifiable worry that publicising their findings will lead to far more mob action.
Although I'm not entirely comfortable with this wait and see approach, it may be better than the alternatives.0 -
No. 4 made me cringe even more than Ed M. The idea that the son of a millionaire from north London 'gets' inequality is so funny. Wrong, wrong, wrong on just so many levels. The Independent sinks to a new low with this sort of garbage.0
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Ladbrokes have Owen Paterson at 66-1 for next Tory leader and Betfair no offers.I've always felt if Cameron were to suffer a challenge from anywhere,a sacked and none too happy Paterson will be the flagbearer of those who deny anthropogenic climate change.He may be a runner in the race and is well connected in the shooting and foxhunting set.
He is a back-to-lay option still and he doesn't say no here.
http://www.desmogblog.com/2014/11/12/sacked-environment-secretary-dodges-question-whether-he-will-challenge-conservative-party-leadership0 -
How about a game of googling Ed Miliband to find some new story about him, good or bad ?
Here's my opener:
' Carers for disabled people, who have been involved in one of the longest strikes in the history of the health service, accused Ed Miliband in a private meeting of failure to offer public support for their cause. The carers, who have been on strike for 90 days, told the Labour leader of their deep disappointment with what they say is his failure to help his constituents in Doncaster.
Sixty carers are striking in support of a living wage for staff within the privatised care service, now run by the private equity-owned Care UK. At a 45-minute meeting on Friday, three representatives of the strikers handed Miliband a letter which read: “Mr Miliband, it’s not easy to sit here and say this: we have had private, but no public, support from you or any of the local Labour MPs. The local Labour party and councillors have been worse. We have not had one word of support or visit to our picket line from any of the local Labour party. We cannot tell you how disappointing this has been for us. Most of us have been Labour voters all our lives, a good proportion of us are your constituents … It’s time to get off the fence. We want you to publicly state your support for our action.”
The leaking of the row will be an embarrassment for Miliband, who is MP for Doncaster North.
Care UK, whose majority shareholder is a private equity firm, Bridgepoint Capital, took over services for people with severe learning disabilities in Doncaster, South Yorkshire, from the NHS this year, cutting wages of staff who had been on NHS terms by up to 35%, while bringing in 100 new workers on £7 an hour. '
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/25/miliband-carers-failure-pay-strike
How can EdM make a mess like this of something which should 'meat and drink' to a Labour politician ?
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Number 4 demonstrates the utter delusion of the left. One only needs to ask one question. How much energy poverty have the deranged energy policies designed by Ed Miliband created?0
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At least you lot in Labour now know he we felt when IDS was leading us.Roger said:Eagle
That's for Tories surely?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hro4AdTYiTA
View it as character building.0 -
i) The rules don't allow it (unless they engineer a move of the 2015 conference to before the election, which would appear ludicrous.)peter_from_putney said:Let's suppose that over the next 6 weeks leading up to Christmas, the Tories were to establish a clear and consistent pattern of a 3% - 5% lead in the polls, what are the chances of:
(i) A belated putsch against Miliband or
(ii) Miliband resigns as Labour leader.
Next to nil in both cases I suspect, but it would be interesting to hear what Labourites think.
ii) Harman gets the gig. Then the NEC would have to decide if a leadership contest was practical. If not, Harman would 'lead' Labour into the election, without being a real leader.
I expect Labour are now coming to terms with likely defeat in 2015, which in itself should not cause grown-up politicians to panic. But if Miliband looks like snatching a rout from the jaws of defeat (cf. L&N model prediction) that equanimity could change...0 -
Or alternatively you can play the Ed Miliband Speech game!
http://games.usvsth3m.com/choose-your-own/miliband-speech-simulator/0 -
Sorry, Brown was bleedin useless. A veritable wrecking ball, the damage from which will take ages to repair. Destroyed pensions, "Brown's bottom" gold sale, ran a big deficit when the economy was running hot ( but turbo charged by debt growth ), the endless stealth tax rises, private finance jiggery pokery and on and on.Roger said:It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but what's Ed's thinking?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....
The incredible thing is Ed appears even more clueless... nods to rent controls, gas price freeze ( as the wholesale price now plummets!), magical house building in the hundreds of thousands from nowhere having threatened to confiscate the land in the first place, and the defecit is so important he forgot it from his conference speech ( maybe it's gone for a walk on Hampstead Heath and is talking to strangers on park benches there?). We should be afraid.0 -
By it's very nature difficult to know for sure.chestnut said:Is there any imported wealth generated elsewhere - personal or company -that is parked in Britain avoiding taxes outside the UK and paying them here instead?
What I can say is that Osborne expected that the introduction of a 15% annual penalty charge on residential property held through corporate envelopes (i.e. where an offshore company owns a property and the beneficial owner is not known) would result in most of them unwinding the structure and revealing the identity of the owner.
He got something of a windfall (IIRC more than £1bn p.a. in additional tax) from people who chose to pay up rather than reveal their identity.
You can only speculate about their motives for such a decision.0 -
IDS wasn't leading the Tories 6 months before the election though!TheScreamingEagles said:
At least you lot in Labour now know he we felt when IDS was leading us.Roger said:Eagle
That's for Tories surely?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hro4AdTYiTA
View it as character building.0 -
If there are consistent Tory leads before Xmas, then part of me thinks Ed will take it upon himself to go.
I personally think Alan Johnson WOULD step up if Miliband quit. Despite his talk of how he doesn't think he'd be up to it and how he wouldn't want the job in any circumstances, he did once admit that he would've been willing to become PM if Labour had gone into coalition with the Lib Dems after the 2010 election:Actually, he says casually, there was a time when he did come very close to standing for the leadership. "There was one period when we were negotiating because it was a hung parliament and the Liberal Democrats had talked to the Tories and it had broken down on the Sunday over the Alternative Vote, and Sunday night/Monday they came to talk to us. It looked as if we might form a coalition with the Lib Dems. The condition they laid down was that Gordon had to go and we all knew that anyway, he was going to step down, and I thought, well if there's a leadership election in these circumstances I'll stand because it would need someone just to hold things together for three years and then hand over to the younger generation." I'm open-mouthed while he continues to recount this story as if he's just telling me what he had for tea last night.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/28/alan-johnson-prime-minister-almost0 -
We dodged a bullet with that one.david_herdson said:
IDS wasn't leading the Tories 6 months before the election though!TheScreamingEagles said:
At least you lot in Labour now know he we felt when IDS was leading us.Roger said:Eagle
That's for Tories surely?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hro4AdTYiTA
View it as character building.0 -
Dave was right on gay marriage. Brave too probably.foxinsoxuk said:11 is interesting.
So Dave was right about gay marriage it seems, though I think even the kippers are coming round to it. Small c conservatism is fading.0 -
Ed Balls killed me.......manofkent2014 said:Or alternatively you can play the Ed Miliband Speech game!
http://games.usvsth3m.com/choose-your-own/miliband-speech-simulator/
You feel the bone in your nose splinter with Ballses’ first blow. He knocks you down, enormous pumpkin head glowing with rage.
Once the shock has passed, the pain starts as the blows rain down. Balls advances on you. Surely he’s not going to sit on you. Surely.
The last thing you hear is you skull creaking as it takes the weight of the Balls.YOU DIE.
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If Nathalie Bennet becomes PM would the last one out turn the lights off.. Oh hang on.....manofkent2014 said:Green Party Leader Natalie Bennett: Ukip voters are “simply lashing out” like “a small child”
Says the loony toon who wants to remove all immigration controls.0 -
I'll try and cheer up the Labour supporters.
Look on the bright side and Ed performs as badly as we all expect next year, we will be spared Dan Hodges running naked down the Mall.0 -
Didn't he have a similar bet about UKIP not polling above 10% or something?TheScreamingEagles said:I'll try and cheer up the Labour supporters.
Look on the bright side and Ed performs as badly as we all expect next year, we will be spared Dan Hodges running naked down the Mall.0 -
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/apr/28/alan-johnson-prime-minister-almostDanny565 said:If there are consistent Tory leads before Xmas, then part of me thinks Ed will take it upon himself to go.
I personally think Alan Johnson WOULD step up if Miliband quit. Despite his talk of how he doesn't think he'd be up to it and how he wouldn't want the job in any circumstances, he did once admit that he would've been willing to become PM if Labour had gone into coalition with the Lib Dems after the 2010 election:Actually, he says casually, there was a time when he did come very close to standing for the leadership. "There was one period when we were negotiating because it was a hung parliament and the Liberal Democrats had talked to the Tories and it had broken down on the Sunday over the Alternative Vote, and Sunday night/Monday they came to talk to us. It looked as if we might form a coalition with the Lib Dems. The condition they laid down was that Gordon had to go and we all knew that anyway, he was going to step down, and I thought, well if there's a leadership election in these circumstances I'll stand because it would need someone just to hold things together for three years and then hand over to the younger generation." I'm open-mouthed while he continues to recount this story as if he's just telling me what he had for tea last night.
I really don't understand the attraction of Johnson. He made a complete balls up of being shadow chancellor effectively in one speech. Why do people think he could stand the rigours of scrutiny that a Prime Ministerial candidate would undergo?0 -
Oh yeah.Danny565 said:
Didn't he have a similar bet about UKIP not polling above 10% or something?TheScreamingEagles said:I'll try and cheer up the Labour supporters.
Look on the bright side and Ed performs as badly as we all expect next year, we will be spared Dan Hodges running naked down the Mall.
I'll try and come up with another way to cheer you all up0 -
Talking of Ed, here comes Foot! (1964)0
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True, but then dodging a bullet is possible with a bit of foresight and action.TheScreamingEagles said:
We dodged a bullet with that one.david_herdson said:
IDS wasn't leading the Tories 6 months before the election though!TheScreamingEagles said:
At least you lot in Labour now know he we felt when IDS was leading us.Roger said:Eagle
That's for Tories surely?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hro4AdTYiTA
View it as character building.
What's intriguing is how it's only now that Ed's ratings have really taken a tumble, though Labour's poll share has been on the slide for two years.0 -
I remember less than a year ago, Miliband was still out-polling Cameron on a fairly regular basis. How long ago those days seem.david_herdson said:
True, but then dodging a bullet is possible with a bit of foresight and action.TheScreamingEagles said:
We dodged a bullet with that one.david_herdson said:
IDS wasn't leading the Tories 6 months before the election though!TheScreamingEagles said:
At least you lot in Labour now know he we felt when IDS was leading us.Roger said:Eagle
That's for Tories surely?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hro4AdTYiTA
View it as character building.
What's intriguing is how it's only now that Ed's ratings have really taken a tumble, though Labour's poll share has been on the slide for two years.0 -
Sir Alec goes...
Never showed up for his own count.0 -
I agree with the thrust of the article at 4 so why was the most passionate and believable Labour politician delivering this message the Labour candidate in Rochester?
It's time our dear stopped taking his feeble pills and started leading or he'll lose and lose badly0 -
The similarity between IDS and Ed for me is the poor conference speech that accelerated things.david_herdson said:
True, but then dodging a bullet is possible with a bit of foresight and action.TheScreamingEagles said:
We dodged a bullet with that one.david_herdson said:
IDS wasn't leading the Tories 6 months before the election though!TheScreamingEagles said:
At least you lot in Labour now know he we felt when IDS was leading us.Roger said:Eagle
That's for Tories surely?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hro4AdTYiTA
View it as character building.
What's intriguing is how it's only now that Ed's ratings have really taken a tumble, though Labour's poll share has been on the slide for two years.
I cringe just thinking about that 2003 conference speech.
Most of the shadow cabinet agreed with me.
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Thanks for the response.JonnyJimmy said:@another_richard
If the government's response to the despicable child rape saga in Rotherham is as it seems, ie the square root of eff all, then I will be livid.
If, as I long to believe, there's far more going on behind the scenes and we'll soon see the fruits of their efforts then I can understand on a number of levels why they would have been so reticent about revealing what they're up to.
You don't have to think too far back to remember when angry mobs were attacking paediatricians. It's not hard to imagine that similar mobs would be attacking all kinds of Yorkshire Asians.
The time being taken may well be a direct consequence of the depths that they have discovered that this scandal reaches, and a justifiable worry that publicising their findings will lead to far more mob action.
Although I'm not entirely comfortable with this wait and see approach, it may be better than the alternatives.
Now it may well be that the government is doing something 'behind the scenes' but after over four years in office this government has so far done the square root of eff all on this issue I have my doubts. There comes a point where you become certain that a course of action has been decided on and nothing will change - for me that was when Downing Street stated that 'lessons have been learnt' in response to the Jay Report. Whenever I hear that phrase I am certain that nothing will be done.
Contrast with Keith Vaz, not a man I would expect to have good words for, but who has done good work on the issue with the Home Affairs Select Committee.
I can understand your point about not wanting to defame entire sections of society but that concern about 'community cohesion' was one of the reasons behind the criminal toleration of the police and local council. Likewise in other locations right back to the Channel 4 report on Keighley in 2004. The continuation of this toleration now encourages people to seek their own form of 'justice'.
Meanwhile there are new victims around the country every day.
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Well done at number 10.... superb restraint.
I see Farage wants to privatise the NHS now or he did... policies outside of johnny foreigners aren't really UKIPs forte as we know.0 -
Is there anyone left other than Nick Palmer to admit that Ed is crap?0
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I don't seem to be able to quote Andy JS's first post but one of tonights matches is Ed Balls v reality.0
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I can't agree Roger (phew) re Brown - the rest I'm v happy to nod along with as a PBBLUE - Arguably for the first few years Brown was ok but from 2000 onwards, a total spiv which too many bought and even some do today... IRoger said:It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but what's Ed's thinking?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....0 -
C. R. Attlee is now speaking...0
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Well said. There's little doubt he was utter 'MARK RECKLESS' in fact.philiph said:Roger said:It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but what's Ed's thinking?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....
I think there is a lot of doubt that Brown was an excellent Chancellor.0 -
Labour supporters like the policies that Ed Miliband puts forward - it's why he got elected in the first place. They don't like Labour falling in the polls though, and it's only recently that drop has become undeniable.david_herdson said:
True, but then dodging a bullet is possible with a bit of foresight and action.TheScreamingEagles said:
We dodged a bullet with that one.david_herdson said:
IDS wasn't leading the Tories 6 months before the election though!TheScreamingEagles said:
At least you lot in Labour now know he we felt when IDS was leading us.Roger said:Eagle
That's for Tories surely?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hro4AdTYiTA
View it as character building.
What's intriguing is how it's only now that Ed's ratings have really taken a tumble, though Labour's poll share has been on the slide for two years.0 -
First, why, as Ipsos MORI's managing director for public affairs, Bobby Duffy, has pointed out, has it "long been recognised in studies of attitudes to immigration that the areas with the lowest immigrant numbers are often those that express the greatest concern about immigration"?
Because (a) the segment of the population that are immigrants themselves tend to have less of an issue with immigration and (b) people that do not like the effects of immigration move out to areas with less of it.
Second, why, when "net migration is down a quarter from its peak under Labour and... from outside the European Union is down to its lowest level since 1998" - as Cameron boasted at PMQs on 29 October - has concern about immigration continued to skyrocket, to a point where it now tops the list of voters' priorities?
Because people's issue is with the total number of immigrants in the country, not the last quarter's immigration figures.
Third, why do people think that far more immigrants live in the UK than actually do?
People aren't good at judging absolute numbers unless they are familiar with a statistics, but that doesn't mean they are incorrect about the judgment. Football fans can tell you if a Lionel Messi was a thunderbolt even if they can't put a mile per hour number on it.
Fourth, why was 70% of the public telling Gallup as long ago as 1978 that Britain was "being swamped" by people with different cultures, even though net migration at the time was negative - more people were leaving the UK than were arriving - and had been so for more than a decade?
See question 2. This isn't difficult.
Fifth, perhaps crucially and chillingly, why do a quarter (26%) of Britons - and, tellingly, a majority (51%) of Ukip supporters - think the government "should encourage immigrants and their families to leave Britain (including family members who were born in Britain)", according to a YouGov poll in April?
I don't know because I don't hold such views. Perhaps you could ask them. On that note, why does Mehdi Hassan believe that non-Muslims are unthinking animals? He's got a lot of nerve alleging other people are bigots.0 -
Would Ed M really manage to do anything about inequality? I hate to go all 'look at the past' here, but Labour were in power for a long time and he was working at the heart of the project, so if he had a problem with a lack of action of inequality it apparently didn't bother him before, or he felt nothing could be done about it, or it was not worth the price, and what about either of those has changed.0
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Unlike Edpeter_from_putney said:First again!
Looks like he is going to need all of that intellectual self confidence0 -
The biggest driver of inequality is differential education. But the unions and their membes are quite happy with the status quo - so resist change.kle4 said:Would Ed M really manage to do anything about inequality? I hate to go all 'look at the past' here, but Labour were in power for a long time and he was working at the heart of the project, so if he had a problem with a lack of action of inequality it apparently didn't bother him before, or he felt nothing could be done about it, or it was not worth the price, and what about either of those has changed.
Do you think Ed is the man to lead a reform of the education system?0 -
It is good but also an advert for Viagra I thought?Roger said:Sorry Jonathan. I was so pissed off with his performance yesterday at the CBI conference that I just gave up. (I love your no right turn. Why can't Ed think of something as eye-catching?)
0 -
Brown was OK when he was pretending to be Ken Clarke.Scrapheap_as_was said:
I can't agree Roger (phew) re Brown - the rest I'm v happy to nod along with as a PBBLUE - Arguably for the first few years Brown was ok but from 2000 onwards, a total spiv which too many bought and even some do today... IRoger said:It's unfortunate for Labour that they should have a penchant for selecting MP's whose ambition exceeds their abilities. There is no doubt that Brown was an outstanding chancellor but not a leader. Ed even less so. Cameron armed with his public school/Eton ethos might believe he was born to rule......but what's Ed's thinking?
I thought Brown had a plan. I even-with no evidence whatsoever-thought Ed might have one. Possibly keeping his powder dry. I thought his conference speech
might be a wolf whistle that I couldn't pick up on.
..........Well we're now looking at Christmas and even I as a Labour supporter can't think of a single reason why I should vote Labour. Well maybe not being Tory but the Greens aren't Tory either.
Labour have chosen a lemon and it's time to make a move.....0 -
Harold on his way to the Palace...0
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Seldom have I seen a more punch worthy face than Bloodworth's. His article is too dull to finish.felix said:No. 4 made me cringe even more than Ed M. The idea that the son of a millionaire from north London 'gets' inequality is so funny. Wrong, wrong, wrong on just so many levels. The Independent sinks to a new low with this sort of garbage.
0 -
5. Turnout went up 2 elections in a row. Yes people hold politicians in low esteem, but it seems pessimistic to assume turnout will decline below historic lows. With any luck UKIP really will galvanize some previous non-voters, and this might counter uninspired LD, Con and Lab voters staying home.
I think it was one issue where he can categorically be stated to have been brave, which is very rare for him, because he knew it would cause divisions in the party and cost him some votes (and I cannot believe he expected a sudden rush of gay marriage supporting non-Tories to turn to him to replace them), but he did it anyway. Maybe that was politically foolish in the short term and he was focusing on the long term, maybe he just felt it was time it was done, but it was a bold and brave decision.welshowl said:
Dave was right on gay marriage. Brave too probably.foxinsoxuk said:11 is interesting.
So Dave was right about gay marriage it seems, though I think even the kippers are coming round to it. Small c conservatism is fading.
0 -
I know, took everything not to call them TPDScrapheap_as_was said:Well done at number 10.... superb restraint.
I see Farage wants to privatise the NHS now or he did... policies outside of johnny foreigners aren't really UKIPs forte as we know.0 -
Brown F8cked UK PLC bigtime. Why anyone (apart from Neil) could think otherwise is beyond belief.. lets not forget how many peoples pensions he royally screwed or how he sold our gold for a couple of mars bars.0
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8. Hmm, I don't agree with the complete dismissive tone of the piece, and I normally cannot stand Mehdi Hasan, but as someone relaxed about immigration it is actually intriguing to see someone not taking the most extreme opposed position or trying to appeal to those outright opposed even when they themselves are not opposed.0
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With even Roger thinking of voting Green, it's time to think carefully about this market with Paddy Power:
GREEN PARTY PERCENTAGE OF VOTES AT 2015 GENERAL ELECTION
Under 4% 5/6
4% or over 5/6
It's complicated because the Greens won't stand in every seat, so in practice you probably need a national vote share equivalent of 6% or maybe a bit more to reach 4% in votes cast.0 -
What annoyed me about the paediatrician incident was the sneering from Guardianistas, the guys who had messed up the education of these people. Also, why are the WWC so privileged to have convicted paedophiles placed amongst them to rape their children? Why are WWC children deemed to be fair game for such treatment by the BBC and Labour Party?JonnyJimmy said:You don't have to think too far back to remember when angry mobs were attacking paediatricians. It's not hard to imagine that similar mobs would be attacking all kinds of Yorkshire Asians.
Why Yorkshire? The scandal seems to extend at least to Rochdale.
Why Asian? No sign of Indians, Chinese, Thais, Japanese etc. being involved.
I wouldn't worry about random attacks on these people in any case. I felt threatened by the disgraceful media vilification during the Papal Visit in 2010. Much threat, zero action.
Your reasoning of potential threats to public order was probably the exact bullshit that those who allowed the abuse to continue followed.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.0 -
Labour get their 316th seat just as Harold arrives...0
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"So Dave was right about gay marriage it seems, though I think even the kippers are coming round to it. Small c conservatism is fading."
Having listened to the radio this morning where people were queuing up to say a Sheffield footballer should never be allowed near a football ground again and then a similar number up in arms because the parole board have decided to release a 78 year old man after 48 years in prison it doesn't feel like small c conservatism is fading. But I suppose it depends how you define it.0 -
Phone rings to tell Dimbleby China has exploded the Bomb...0
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EdM 'forgets' to mention the deficit in his conference speech.welshowl said:
The incredible thing is Ed appears even more clueless... nods to rent controls, gas price freeze ( as the wholesale price now plummets!), magical house building in the hundreds of thousands from nowhere having threatened to confiscate the land in the first place, and the defecit is so important he forgot it from his conference speech ( maybe it's gone for a walk on Hampstead Heath and is talking to strangers on park benches there?). We should be afraid.
Cameron lies again about "paying down Britain's debts" in his conference speech.
The election debates will interesting.
0 -
Butler saying parties don't get back in after only a short period in Opposition...0
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It is perfectly possible for the son of a millionaire from north London to 'get' inequality, even if they have have always had a privileged life, as Ed M himself said early on in his leadership, that he was not a member of the 'squeezed middle'. My only problem with that is that Labour attacks, when they are being lazy, imply that Cameron cannot get such issues or understand such issues because he is posh, which would seem to indicate they believe people like Cameron and Miliband cannot get such things. It's amazing how often they make the mistake of implying because Cameron is posh and out of touch he cannot understand such concerns, when their own variably posh and out of touch leaders can, when all they have to do is say that Tories of any stripe do not understand such things. It'd be wrong, but not so obviously hypocritical.felix said:No. 4 made me cringe even more than Ed M. The idea that the son of a millionaire from north London 'gets' inequality is so funny. Wrong, wrong, wrong on just so many levels. The Independent sinks to a new low with this sort of garbage.
That said, my skepticism Ed could do something about it remains, though I do not doubt his sincerity. He seems a pleasant enough chap.
0 -
Roger, you should listen with both ears.. many on r2 contradicted the police officer to say he had served long enough. I don't agree ,.. he should rot in prison for what he did...., but hey lets not let the truth get in the way of a political point.Roger said:
"So Dave was right about gay marriage it seems, though I think even the kippers are coming round to it. Small c conservatism is fading."
Having listened to the radio this morning where people were queuing up to say a Sheffield footballer should never be allowed near a football ground again and then a similar number up in arms because the parole board have decided to release a 78 year old man after 48 years in prison it doesn't feel like small c conservatism is fading. But I suppose it depends how you define it.0 -
Good point. I fear they might fall just short myself.antifrank said:With even Roger thinking of voting Green, it's time to think carefully about this market with Paddy Power:
GREEN PARTY PERCENTAGE OF VOTES AT 2015 GENERAL ELECTION
Under 4% 5/6
4% or over 5/6
It's complicated because the Greens won't stand in every seat, so in practice you probably need a national vote share equivalent of 6% or maybe a bit more to reach 4% in votes cast.0 -
In light of Roger's revelation, surely the better bet should be Lab polling less than they did in 2010?antifrank said:With even Roger thinking of voting Green, it's time to think carefully about this market with Paddy Power:
GREEN PARTY PERCENTAGE OF VOTES AT 2015 GENERAL ELECTION
Under 4% 5/6
4% or over 5/6
It's complicated because the Greens won't stand in every seat, so in practice you probably need a national vote share equivalent of 6% or maybe a bit more to reach 4% in votes cast.0 -
I'm at the dogs on the night of the DD get together and it occurs to me my plan to own a dog will allows the opportunity to name him or her "Traitorous Pig Dog" at that time... I may need to accelerate that plan!TheScreamingEagles said:
I know, took everything not to call them TPDScrapheap_as_was said:Well done at number 10.... superb restraint.
I see Farage wants to privatise the NHS now or he did... policies outside of johnny foreigners aren't really UKIPs forte as we know.0 -
Agreed on Keith Vaz, he's been the Labour MP who's most impressed me in this parliament. Given my feelings on him in the past that's a real surprise.another_richard said:
Thanks for the response.
Now it may well be that the government is doing something 'behind the scenes' but after over four years in office this government has so far done the square root of eff all on this issue I have my doubts. There comes a point where you become certain that a course of action has been decided on and nothing will change - for me that was when Downing Street stated that 'lessons have been learnt' in response to the Jay Report. Whenever I hear that phrase I am certain that nothing will be done.
Contrast with Keith Vaz, not a man I would expect to have good words for, but who has done good work on the issue with the Home Affairs Select Committee.
I can understand your point about not wanting to defame entire sections of society but that concern about 'community cohesion' was one of the reasons behind the criminal toleration of the police and local council. Likewise in other locations right back to the Channel 4 report on Keighley in 2004. The continuation of this toleration now encourages people to seek their own form of 'justice'.
Meanwhile there are new victims around the country every day.
On Rotherham, and other places where we know similar scandals have occurred as well as no doubt others where it hasn't yet been uncovered, if the only official response remains that "lessons have been learnt" then I'll regard that as entirely unforgivable.
Just from the Jay Report there seems to me to be enough evidence to have already at least have suspended a good proportion of the police and social services in that area. I can understand that there may be problems with doing so on a both a legal front (without yet having sufficient evidence against them to make a watertight case) and a practical front (can those areas be sufficiently policed/socially serviced with such reduced manpower).
I can also understand that revealing what the powers that be could be, should be and I hope are doing might make it easier for the perpetrators (and those in authority who have allowed them to get away with it) to cover their tracks.
What has happened is a disgraceful tragedy and we need to make sure that as many of those responsible for it as possible are properly punished.0 -
Sod the dogs, come visit me at Dirty Dicks.Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm at the dogs on the night of the DD get together and it occurs to me my plan to own a dog will allows the opportunity to name him or her "Traitorous Pig Dog" at that time... I may need to accelerate that plan!TheScreamingEagles said:
I know, took everything not to call them TPDScrapheap_as_was said:Well done at number 10.... superb restraint.
I see Farage wants to privatise the NHS now or he did... policies outside of johnny foreigners aren't really UKIPs forte as we know.
Have I ever told you about my plan to buy a race horse and name it "My Face"0 -
Don't be fooled. Roger has no intention of voting Green... Roger is very well connected in certain spheres(or seems to be;) . The Greens are loons (ask anyone in Brighton)...0
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You have a point in that we are still awash with red ink, but at least Dave seems to remember the fact, even if they've not been as successful as they would've liked to have been about reducing it. Ed clearly just pays lip service and doesn't care and or understand. Still the bond market will sort him out (and us with him) if he doesn't wise up. (There again rising bond yields might ease some of the pain of Gordon's pensions massacres so it would be an ill wind and all that....)another_richard said:
EdM 'forgets' to mention the deficit in his conference speech.welshowl said:
The incredible thing is Ed appears even more clueless... nods to rent controls, gas price freeze ( as the wholesale price now plummets!), magical house building in the hundreds of thousands from nowhere having threatened to confiscate the land in the first place, and the defecit is so important he forgot it from his conference speech ( maybe it's gone for a walk on Hampstead Heath and is talking to strangers on park benches there?). We should be afraid.
Cameron lies again about "paying down Britain's debts" in his conference speech.
The election debates will interesting.0 -
Owning a racing greyhound is a cheap and exciting hobby, Scrapheap.Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm at the dogs on the night of the DD get together and it occurs to me my plan to own a dog will allows the opportunity to name him or her "Traitorous Pig Dog" at that time... I may need to accelerate that plan!TheScreamingEagles said:
I know, took everything not to call them TPDScrapheap_as_was said:Well done at number 10.... superb restraint.
I see Farage wants to privatise the NHS now or he did... policies outside of johnny foreigners aren't really UKIPs forte as we know.
Not sure you will get away with naming one Traitorous Pig Dog though. They have rules about these things.
How about Perdicas? It sounds nice, vaguely classical even, but it is of course an anagram of...well, work it out for yourself.0 -
You may have mentioned the plan once beforeTheScreamingEagles said:
Sod the dogs, come visit me at Dirty Dicks.Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm at the dogs on the night of the DD get together and it occurs to me my plan to own a dog will allows the opportunity to name him or her "Traitorous Pig Dog" at that time... I may need to accelerate that plan!TheScreamingEagles said:
I know, took everything not to call them TPDScrapheap_as_was said:Well done at number 10.... superb restraint.
I see Farage wants to privatise the NHS now or he did... policies outside of johnny foreigners aren't really UKIPs forte as we know.
Have I ever told you about my plan to buy a race horse and name it "My Face"
0 -
True. Just consider attitudes to sex in general compared to sex with children, leaving a large number of embarrassing documents just waiting to be dug up as discussed and exposed by many including on this site.kle4 said:
I think things can get a little more complicated - society may seem to be getting more conservative in some respect even as liberalism abounds in others.Roger said:
it doesn't feel like small c conservatism is fading. But I suppose it depends how you define it.0 -
@CCHQPress: With his TENTH leadership relaunch due tomorrow, it's little wonder the Labour party are concluding @Ed_Miliband's just not up to it0
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Die scrap?Peter_the_Punter said:
Owning a racing greyhound is a cheap and exciting hobby, Scrapheap.Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm at the dogs on the night of the DD get together and it occurs to me my plan to own a dog will allows the opportunity to name him or her "Traitorous Pig Dog" at that time... I may need to accelerate that plan!TheScreamingEagles said:
I know, took everything not to call them TPDScrapheap_as_was said:Well done at number 10.... superb restraint.
I see Farage wants to privatise the NHS now or he did... policies outside of johnny foreigners aren't really UKIPs forte as we know.
Not sure you will get away with naming one Traitorous Pig Dog though. They have rules about these things.
How about Perdicas? It sounds nice, vaguely classical even, but it is of course an anagram of...well, work it out for yourself.0 -
#4 – poor chaps deluded.0
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Which is not a bad rule of thumb, though as always, not a golden rule.RodCrosby said:Butler saying parties don't get back in after only a short period in Opposition...
0 -
Mehdi is an utter cockSocrates said:First, why, as Ipsos MORI's managing director for public affairs, Bobby Duffy, has pointed out, has it "long been recognised in studies of attitudes to immigration that the areas with the lowest immigrant numbers are often those that express the greatest concern about immigration"?
Because (a) the segment of the population that are immigrants themselves tend to have less of an issue with immigration and (b) people that do not like the effects of immigration move out to areas with less of it.
Second, why, when "net migration is down a quarter from its peak under Labour and... from outside the European Union is down to its lowest level since 1998" - as Cameron boasted at PMQs on 29 October - has concern about immigration continued to skyrocket, to a point where it now tops the list of voters' priorities?
Because people's issue is with the total number of immigrants in the country, not the last quarter's immigration figures.
Third, why do people think that far more immigrants live in the UK than actually do?
People aren't good at judging absolute numbers unless they are familiar with a statistics, but that doesn't mean they are incorrect about the judgment. Football fans can tell you if a Lionel Messi was a thunderbolt even if they can't put a mile per hour number on it.
Fourth, why was 70% of the public telling Gallup as long ago as 1978 that Britain was "being swamped" by people with different cultures, even though net migration at the time was negative - more people were leaving the UK than were arriving - and had been so for more than a decade?
See question 2. This isn't difficult.
Fifth, perhaps crucially and chillingly, why do a quarter (26%) of Britons - and, tellingly, a majority (51%) of Ukip supporters - think the government "should encourage immigrants and their families to leave Britain (including family members who were born in Britain)", according to a YouGov poll in April?
I don't know because I don't hold such views. Perhaps you could ask them. On that note, why does Mehdi Hassan believe that non-Muslims are unthinking animals? He's got a lot of nerve alleging other people are bigots.0 -
But that it precisely the tribal Labour mentality: the Tories cannot understand inequality because they are Tories; we 'get it' because we are Labour.kle4 said:
It is perfectly possible for the son of a millionaire from north London to 'get' inequality, even if they have have always had a privileged life, as Ed M himself said early on in his leadership, that he was not a member of the 'squeezed middle'. My only problem with that is that Labour attacks, when they are being lazy, imply that Cameron cannot get such issues or understand such issues because he is posh, which would seem to indicate they believe people like Cameron and Miliband cannot get such things. It's amazing how often they make the mistake of implying because Cameron is posh and out of touch he cannot understand such concerns, when their own variably posh and out of touch leaders can, when all they have to do is say that Tories of any stripe do not understand such things. It'd be wrong, but not so obviously hypocritical.felix said:No. 4 made me cringe even more than Ed M. The idea that the son of a millionaire from north London 'gets' inequality is so funny. Wrong, wrong, wrong on just so many levels. The Independent sinks to a new low with this sort of garbage.
That said, my skepticism Ed could do something about it remains, though I do not doubt his sincerity. He seems a pleasant enough chap.
Now, Labour isn't the only party to have intellectually lazy members and supporters, nor to ascribe to themselves and their opponents characteristics or values that are at best caricatures and at worst plain falsehoods, but they are particularly good at it.0 -
Don't blow those Rochester winnings all at once !Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm at the dogs on the night of the DD get together and it occurs to me my plan to own a dog will allows the opportunity to name him or her "Traitorous Pig Dog" at that time... I may need to accelerate that plan!TheScreamingEagles said:
I know, took everything not to call them TPDScrapheap_as_was said:Well done at number 10.... superb restraint.
I see Farage wants to privatise the NHS now or he did... policies outside of johnny foreigners aren't really UKIPs forte as we know.0 -
I said "I can understand on a number of levels" then gave one example. You seem to have taken that one example as the sum total of my understanding why we may have yet not seen the full extent of the government's response.Ninoinoz said:
What annoyed me about the paediatrician incident was the sneering from Guardianistas, the guys who had messed up the education of these people. Also, why are the WWC so privileged to have convicted paedophiles placed amongst them to rape their children? Why are WWC children deemed to be fair game for such treatment by the BBC and Labour Party?JonnyJimmy said:You don't have to think too far back to remember when angry mobs were attacking paediatricians. It's not hard to imagine that similar mobs would be attacking all kinds of Yorkshire Asians.
Why Yorkshire? The scandal seems to extend at least to Rochdale.
Why Asian? No sign of Indians, Chinese, Thais, Japanese etc. being involved.
I wouldn't worry about random attacks on these people in any case. I felt threatened by the disgraceful media vilification during the Papal Visit in 2010. Much threat, zero action.
Your reasoning of potential threats to public order was probably the exact bullshit that those who allowed the abuse to continue followed.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
I'm not trying to cover anything up about this, I don't want to and wouldn't have any way of of doing so if I did want to.
I'm hoping as hard as I can that there are sensible reasons for the whole known truth to not have already been revealed to us.
I've lost friends (amongst liberal luvvies in London I used to know) for trying to discuss this issue with them. They decided I was a racist for even raising it.
Please don't treat me as though I'm some extension of an establishment cover up on this.0 -
That's a brilliant interview with Natalie Bennett at link 6 - and, even if you don't agree with her, the bit where the pigeon intervenes at around 5 minutes into the video is worth a look.0
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Big big story in the Times
Lord Ashcroft back among Tories’ top donors0 -
erm, I think I prefer PTP's!Ninoinoz said:
Die scrap?Peter_the_Punter said:
Owning a racing greyhound is a cheap and exciting hobby, Scrapheap.Scrapheap_as_was said:
I'm at the dogs on the night of the DD get together and it occurs to me my plan to own a dog will allows the opportunity to name him or her "Traitorous Pig Dog" at that time... I may need to accelerate that plan!TheScreamingEagles said:
I know, took everything not to call them TPDScrapheap_as_was said:Well done at number 10.... superb restraint.
I see Farage wants to privatise the NHS now or he did... policies outside of johnny foreigners aren't really UKIPs forte as we know.
Not sure you will get away with naming one Traitorous Pig Dog though. They have rules about these things.
How about Perdicas? It sounds nice, vaguely classical even, but it is of course an anagram of...well, work it out for yourself.
How about Reckless Tw@ or might that be too subtle?0
