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YouGov/Telegraph mega poll with forecasts for each seat predicts CON disaster – politicalbetting.com

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824
    edited January 2024
    I’m literally having one of the best meals of my life. Reviewing a restaurant for the Gazette. Fine dining Khmer cuisine on Sisowath Quay, from an all female team, as well

    Anywhere else this would be 2 star, or 3, or who cares about fucking Michelin stars. Incroyable

    https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g293940-d23332170-Reviews-Sombok_Restaurant-Phnom_Penh.html

    I just had the beef with prahok

    It’s $12!!!
  • TOPPING said:

    Go on then. Turn your laptop off for 20 mins. Do your bit you selfish git.
    I'm already doing my bit. Six times a year I use my EV to ferry my lad and his stuff back and forth to uni. This is slightly less convenient then using my old petrol car because I have to stop for 20 minutes or so on the way back to recharge. It's not a great hardship, but apparently more than most are prepared to suffer.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,266

    MAGA - Make Andrea Great Again

    (Some may be skeptical that "Again" is applicable here...)
    Make Andrea Grate Again seems more plausible :wink:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    edited January 2024
    Lower Thames Crossing tunnel - £800m spent so far on the planning applicaition, 359,000 pages which, if laid end-to-end, would be four times longer than the 14-mile tunnel they’re trying to build.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/15/thames-crossing-plan-uk-biggest-planning-application/

    Everything currently wrong with the UK, summed up in one article.

    Just F****** Do It.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    isam said:

    It looks like he has been gifted a majority by the Tories benching their best player then scoring a couple of own goals, but I’d say below 100, because when the usually uninterested public see lots of him in the campaign they’ll think “I can’t vote for this berk”

    Let’s see. The last time the favourite to win the GE was such a wet blanket was 2017, and Theresa May was much shorter in the betting to win a majority, so anything’s possible
    Oh behave.

    Johnson wasn't benched. He had previously been on a yellow for unsporting conduct and was already in the tunnel before the ref could show him a straight red for a studs up, two footed lunge.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,188

    But also, where the houses are, relative to where people want to live and where employers want to locate themselves.

    Part of the lament of the Red Wall towns is that opportunities have moved away from them. Which is true, sad, but probably inevitable. Larger cities (which doesn't have to mean just London) are where it's at.
    In the South (both East and West) there is enough prosperity to support small (especially quaint) towns and villages. Barring one or two exceptions, this just doesn't seem to be the case in the North. I'm guessing its because private enterprise is simply far more heavily skewed in the South.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    edited January 2024

    Nobody is believing that everyone is just going to stop using energy, least of all me.

    I was thinking more about, for example, the current media campaign against electric vehicles. The implication is that people would be stupid to buy them because they cannot (yet) do all that petrol/diesel cars can and for the same or lower cost. The idea that people might perhaps be prepared to endure any slight hardship, such as a 20 minute wait to recharge, in order to lessen their impact on the environment is, apparently, laughable. It seems that altruism is for idiots.
    Fair enough.
    I think the bigger problem with EVs is that there aren't really any cheap models with limited capabilities, and as yet production capacity is very limited. That ought not to be all that far off, though.

    I'd quite happily run something along the lines of the Kia Ray* EV.
    It would probably induce cerebral convulsions in DuraAce, but it would meet about 90% of my driving requirements.
    https://electrek.co/2023/09/21/kias-ray-ev-6000-pre-orders-korea-starting-20k/

    *I was overtaken by one of the petrol models doing around 90 mph on a Korean motorway. Strange sight.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    Because that is an abstract thought. 20mins (assuming that is the charge time and the charger is the right type and there is no one in the queue in front of you).

    That is a big ask "for the greater good" whatever tf that is.

    Why don't you turn off your computer (let's round it up to an hour, say) and do nothing - you can imagine yourself at a BP garage on the A3 for example.

    It will be for the greater good.

    Let us know how you get on when you turn the laptop back on.
    I have the unpopular opinion that we just need fewer cars, electric or otherwise. We don't have the resources to get all the lithium and such to replace every fuel burning car on the road with an electric one, and the method of mining will have its own environmental issues - as will the changes to infrastructure to support them. The personal car is atomising and destructive for social cohesion - every driver believes they have a right to the road and every other driver or pedestrian is in their way. Our infrastructure is so lopsidedly in favour of drivers that local and regional public transport is godawful outside London and (arguably) Manchester, and if we just switch to electric cars we'll still see arguments for widening roads and so on and so on.

    (to indulge in some anecdata) I saw someone online bemoaned how a tram was only half full, and how much space it took up on the road, taking a video from their car that had to stop for the tram to pass by. The driver was alone in the car. Most journeys in cars are done by single occupants. Public transport is so much more space efficient than car journeys - it just needs government investment to make it functional for people and they'll use it. Instead we've had decades of slashing apart our societal infrastructure, and a focus on the individual vehicle - and it has warped everything. People will shop a 20 minute drive away rather than walk to shops (which no longer exist because the superduper market can only exist when cars are supreme). People live 45mins - 1 hour driving commutes away (if they're lucky) meaning that their entire livelihoods is dependent on their car to get them there (which means jobs can be centralised in urban areas, whilst rural areas are ignored and are underinvested in).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824

    We've done this. You will spout your 5 theories, and I will say its the same old same old of some credulous fools being taken in by either a mistaken true believer (Grusch, genuinely coming to the wrong conclusions about what 'recovery of alien craft' means - hint alien might just mean not US) and grifters who have worked out there is money to be made spinning yarns about Project Sign, Grudge, Bluebook, etc etc etc.
    Mate. You still believe in the Wet Market just because you find lab leak “upsetting”. The time when you were worth listening to on anything scientific is long gone
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,955
    Leon said:

    I’m literally having one of the best meals of my life. Reviewing a restaurant for the Gazette. Fine dining Khmer cuisine on Sisowath Quay, from an all female team, as well

    Anywhere else this would be 2 star, or 3, or who cares about fucking Michelin stars. Incroyable

    https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g293940-d23332170-Reviews-Sombok_Restaurant-Phnom_Penh.html

    I just had the beef with prahok

    It’s $12!!!

    Are you still on the Ozempic?!!

    Doesn't seem to have affected your enjoyment of food...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,685
    edited January 2024
    Leon said:

    I’m literally having one of the best meals of my life. Reviewing a restaurant for the Gazette. Fine dining Khmer cuisine on Sisowath Quay, from an all female team, as well

    Anywhere else this would be 2 star, or 3, or who cares about fucking Michelin stars. Incroyable

    https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g293940-d23332170-Reviews-Sombok_Restaurant-Phnom_Penh.html

    I just had the beef with prahok

    It’s $12!!!

    I should really feeds you all dog!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,266
    TOPPING said:

    Go on then. Turn your laptop off for 20 mins. Do your bit you selfish git.
    I would take you up on that, but I'm worried that whoever gets the additional excess* solar power will just waste it on something silly like commenting on PB. Far better to keep it here and put it to good use :wink:

    *exporting at the moment
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    "Immigration is a factor, but not a significant one."

    No.

    Simply no.

    You have got your own political bugbears, and are desperately trying to put the 'reasons' onto those. Instead of looking at the reality (or realty...) as I did with the figures below.

    As ever, the situation is complex, but to say immigration is not a significant factor in the housing crisis is ridiculous.

    (And before anyone pipes up, I am not anti-immigration for rather obvious reasons...)
    Would "dealing" with immigration solve the housing crisis? No. Getting immigration down to net zero, or even slightly net negative would not deal with the issue of housing. That's why I say it is not a significant factor - you cannot "fix" this issue via immigration based solutions.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Sandpit said:

    The GOP Establishment and their friends in the media, have spent the last few weeks shilling mercilessly for Haley, the Uniparty candidate for 2024.
    The entire US media has spent the last few years shilling for Trump, so fair's fair.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355

    Years ago, I was struck by parallel results in two polls in the UK and the US. Respondents were asked whether they considered their nation basically good with some faults, or basically bad, with some redeeming features.

    In the US, then, almost all Republicans chose the first, and about half of Democrats chose the second. The results were similar in the UK, with almost all Conservatives choosing the first, and about half of Labour members choosing the second.

    This helps explain many things, including the religious beliefs of many Greens. If, they think, our nations have sinned against Mother Nature, we deserve some punishment.

    (For the record: I would choose the first, for both nations, and think much data supports me. If anyone is interested in the specifics, I may be able to find descriptions of the polls, but won't promise to even look until at least next weekend.)

    I would tactically vote Labour to block the Greens.

    The are the most dangerous party, if you ask me.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715

    I'm already doing my bit. Six times a year I use my EV to ferry my lad and his stuff back and forth to uni. This is slightly less convenient then using my old petrol car because I have to stop for 20 minutes or so on the way back to recharge. It's not a great hardship, but apparently more than most are prepared to suffer.
    Well done you. But it is not (imo) for people to mandate what is and what isn't a hardship for others. Asking others to make a lifestyle change which you believe is trivial is assuming a lot.

    I mean you have (at least) two cars for no doubt very good reasons but it shows that you might be neither cash poor nor time poor. Maybe you are both in which case there's me assuming things.

    As @Casino_Royale pointed out, the way things are going to change is if/when there is an incentive to do so. The incentive of "saving the planet" I'm afraid, and perhaps disappointingly, is too nebulous for most people.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355

    Canada, Australia and New Zealand are not pinning up the whole West. They are enjoying the benefits of a West being pinned up by the US. If one wants an alternative to the US (a federal system with an integrated economy and common currency) as that linchpin, then loose alliances aren't going to deliver it.
    I don't want an alternative to the US. I want the West to arm and ally.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,397
    148grss said:

    Would "dealing" with immigration solve the housing crisis? No. Getting immigration down to net zero, or even slightly net negative would not deal with the issue of housing. That's why I say it is not a significant factor - you cannot "fix" this issue via immigration based solutions.
    No single measure would magically 'deal' with the issue, as it is multi-factorial. But the idea that immigration isn't one of the significant pressures on housing, if not the most significant factor, is ridiculous.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Nigelb said:

    The entire US media has spent the last few years shilling for Trump, so fair's fair.
    Most of them have been calling him the devil incarnate for the past three years, that’s hardly shilling for them.

    What they all do know though, is that hating on Trump generates views and clicks, so he’s good for business even if they hate his guts.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,397

    Housing crisis is significantly down to immigration.
    But without immigration we would have other different crises.
    The answer, of course, is to plan for immigration and build appropriate amounts, of not just housing, but also wider infrastructure.
    And though I'm hesitant to say it, the 'right' sort of immigration. Allow people in with skills we need, and not just anyone who pays people smugglers to get in.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    Selebian said:

    I would take you up on that, but I'm worried that whoever gets the additional excess* solar power will just waste it on something silly like commenting on PB. Far better to keep it here and put it to good use :wink:

    *exporting at the moment
    Wait, you are able to install solar panels on your 18th floor council flat? That's brilliant.
  • Sandpit said:

    Lower Thames Crossing tunnel - £800m spent so far on the planning applicaition, 359,000 pages which, if laid end-to-end, would be four times longer than the 14-mile tunnel they’re trying to build.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/15/thames-crossing-plan-uk-biggest-planning-application/

    Everything currently wrong with the UK, summed up in one article.

    Just F****** Do It.

    Boris scrapped the East London River Crossing in 2008! (not just the Garden Bridge!)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    TOPPING said:

    Well done you. But it is not (imo) for people to mandate what is and what isn't a hardship for others. Asking others to make a lifestyle change which you believe is trivial is assuming a lot.

    I mean you have (at least) two cars for no doubt very good reasons but it shows that you might be neither cash poor nor time poor. Maybe you are both in which case there's me assuming things.

    As @Casino_Royale pointed out, the way things are going to change is if/when there is an incentive to do so. The incentive of "saving the planet" I'm afraid, and perhaps disappointingly, is too nebulous for most people.
    I'm pretty sure that by 2030 my home will be completely decarbonised, it will not have negatively affected my lifestyle at all, and it will have saved me money. That's how fast the tech and supply chain is moving.

    Aviation and maritime fuels are interesting challenges, as is sustainable farming, but I bet you my mortgage technical and scientific solutions to those are found too.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Might be best to avoid Yemeni waters for commercial vessels for now tbh.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715

    No single measure would magically 'deal' with the issue, as it is multi-factorial. But the idea that immigration isn't one of the significant pressures on housing, if not the most significant factor, is ridiculous.
    But it's nonsensical to say so. Any factor is an issue. Why not only get families to have one child or ban divorce. Immigration may be a factor but as we realise so acutely right now, it is essential to the functioning of our society.

    The issue is that we don't have enough houses. We should build more but, despite the fact that every single election manifesto has included a promise to do so, we don't seem to be able to do this. cf ironically cutting immigration.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Dura_Ace said:

    That Coot is FUCKED. I doff my ushanka to the crew that got that on the ground and walked away.

    That and the Mainstay shootdown happened a long way to the east so a blue-on-blue is the more likely event.

    The A-50 was always the target in the Shar sim. I think they paid BAE to model that then ran out of money and couldn’t get any DLC with other aircraft. I must have virtually shot down hundreds of them.
    About a billion a pop, aren't they ?
    Are the Coots really fifty years old ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Sandpit said:

    Most of them have been calling him the devil incarnate for the past three years, that’s hardly shilling for them.

    What they all do know though, is that hating on Trump generates views and clicks, so he’s good for business even if they hate his guts.
    You miss the point.

    They quote him verbatim in the headlines. Always. Which is a favour they don't often extend to his opponents.
    Nothing else really matters.

    And no, most of the press report politics as 'both sides'.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Pulpstar said:

    Might be best to avoid Yemeni waters for commercial vessels for now tbh.
    That means avoiding the Suez Canal. Just not possible.

    Every Western navy is on the way there, to make sure the ships have safe passage. That’s why you have a navy in the first place.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    TOPPING said:

    Those beastly oil companies "Big Oil" made you fuck off to Tenerife on your holibobs. Bastards.
    My 1st flight for 12 years as it happens. Although even if I were a frequent flier it wouldn't mean that the oil companies didn't systematically lie for decades about the climate impact of their product.

    The search for relevance in your comments on this goes on.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824
    These guys. Bravo. Fucking amazing food

    An absolute stand out meal where everything is simultaneously surprising, and healthy AND utterly delicious is so rare. I can’t recall the last time

    Sombok. Go there!


  • Nigelb said:

    About a billion a pop, aren't they ?
    Are the Coots really fifty years old ?
    Derived from the Il-18 4-prop airliner.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-18
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Leon said:

    Mate. You still believe in the Wet Market just because you find lab leak “upsetting”. The time when you were worth listening to on anything scientific is long gone
    Mate, you spend too much time on TwitterX.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,559
    Nigelb said:

    About a billion a pop, aren't they ?
    Well, that's the invoice price...

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,397
    Sandpit said:

    That means avoiding the Suez Canal. Just not possible.

    Every Western navy is on the way there, to make sure the ships have safe passage. That’s why you have a navy in the first place.
    And the Hamas-supporters screech about our attacks against Yemen...

    (I'm not arguing that our attacks are effective; they may or may not be. Just that the Houthi's actions need to be quashed.)
  • On EVs, power and charging I think the big barrier is this:
    Most cars spend most of their time parked. Which means that for most users most of the time there is no need to think about charging if you can charge when parked. Which for millions means parked at home as we sleep.

    A car that refuels as you sleep is just something people struggle with as they are so used to filling stations...
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    But it's nonsensical to say so. Any factor is an issue. Why not only get families to have one child or ban divorce. Immigration may be a factor but as we realise so acutely right now, it is essential to the functioning of our society.

    The issue is that we don't have enough houses. We should build more but, despite the fact that every single election manifesto has included a promise to do so, we don't seem to be able to do this. cf ironically cutting immigration.
    But the answer has to be more specific than just build more - build more actually affordable housing where it is needed and for the people who need it and make sure it isn't just sold off to private landlords or investment companies. And that means popping, or deflating, the housing market. And that will be a big big problem. It's a rather awful Catch22 - you can't get young people on the housing ladder (and therefore more willing to embrace Thatcherism) without dealing with the consequences of Thatcherism (stagnating wages made up by treating houses as an ever inflating asset that can be leveraged later in life to make up for all the savings you don't have due to your stagnant wages).
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48371-yougov-mrp-shows-labour-would-win-1997-style-landslide-if-election-were-held-today

    YouGov have published their own write up of their MRP.

    They also provide some notes of the Telegraph commentary.

    The Daily Telegraph wrote that “In constituencies across England and Wales, the Labour vote is up by an average of just four per cent compared to 2019”. This is somewhat of a red herring. There is a sum using certain notional results whereby the estimated Labour share looks like a mean of a four point rise on their 2019 performance. However, this is not the correct way to look at either implied national changes nor what is happening at the constituency level.

    If we aggregate up all our constituency level figures and then weight them according to likely voter population, the headline vote intention figures come out at the following:

    Labour 39.5%, Conservatives 26%, Lib Dems 12.5%, Reform 9%, Greens 7.5%, SNP 3%, Plaid 0.5%, Others 2%.

    A separate note by the Daily Telegraph suggested that the presence of Reform UK is the difference between Labour securing a majority and not. This is their own calculation using our data, and appears to be based simply on adding the Conservative and Reform UK vote shares together in each constituency, which is not a reliable way of measuring their impact.

    Were Reform UK not to contest the election, it is extremely unlikely that all, or even a majority, of their voters would transfer to the Conservatives. Some would go to UKIP and splinter parties, some to Labour and other established parties, and some would simply stay at home – YouGov polling in October found only 31% of Reform UK voters would be willing to vote Conservative if Reform UK were not standing in their constituency.

    Finally, the Daily Telegraph also said that the YouGov MRP model does not account for tactical voting in its estimated shares. This is not the case – our model does provision for tactical voting in its design, including by estimating constituency competition effects as part of the model equation. It does not, however, apply any post-hoc readjustments to vote share estimates based on any assumed model of tactical voting beyond what we already have in the data.

    Thanks for sharing that. I did comment at the start of the thread to the effect that what the Telegraph had said in its write up implied some rather strange national vote shares and as such raised doubts in my mind about the methodology of the vote estimates used by the MRP. As it turns out, I was right to have doubts but the doubts should instead have questioned the ability of the Telegraph to accurately report the facts, for the vote shares were not as implied by the Telegraph.

    I think that the weakest part of the MRP analysis could still be the ability to predict the direction of swingback of undecided voters based on demographic characteristics. However, as the only reference I have seen to that happening was in the Telegraph, and YouGov are silent on that in their own write up, maybe the Telegraph have also got their facts wrong on that too. Or have not. Who knows?

    Anyway, in a poll that (probably) allowed for swingback of undecided voters, Labour still have a 13.5% lead in national vote share and with the Greens and Lib Dems together standing on a combined 20% there is plenty of scope for further tactical voting to make things worse for the Conservatives.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    On EVs, power and charging I think the big barrier is this:
    Most cars spend most of their time parked. Which means that for most users most of the time there is no need to think about charging if you can charge when parked. Which for millions means parked at home as we sleep.

    A car that refuels as you sleep is just something people struggle with as they are so used to filling stations...

    If you’re lucky enough to have a house with a driveway, absolutely.

    If you’re not that lucky, on the other hand, the race to EVs is all sticks and no carrots at the moment.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,567
    So, crunched Dylan Difford's vote switcher charts to get some numbers (no graphics) on how the polling swing to Labour is made up.

    His chart shows Labour 44.1, Con 25.0 predicted vote share, which is a 15.5% GB swing to Labour (about 15.0% UK).

    That 15.5% is made of:

    Death of voters: +1.15% swing
    First time young voters: +0.65% swing
    Newly allowed to vote: est+0.4% swing
    (his total voter base is about 800k higher than existed in 2019, allowing NI, so this is 20% of his DNV-> will vote switchers)
    TOTAL DEMOGRAPHIC SWING: +2.2%

    Switching to/from LD/SNP/Green: +1%
    (Labour makes good losses to Green by LD/SNP gains. Con doesn't make good losses to LD)
    Switching to/from Ref/other: +2.65%
    Direct Con to/from Lab switching: +5%
    TOTAL SWITCHING SWING: +8.65%

    2019 votes saying will not vote: +0.5%
    (Con don't lose that many more than Lab)
    2019 DNVs saying they will vote: +1.5%
    (see newly allowed note too)
    Exclude don't knows (post-Opinium swing): +2.65%
    TOTAL TURNOUT SWING: 4.65%
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    kinabalu said:

    My 1st flight for 12 years as it happens. Although even if I were a frequent flier it wouldn't mean that the oil companies didn't systematically lie for decades about the climate impact of their product.

    The search for relevance in your comments on this goes on.
    Oh. Sozza. So the oil companies told you that there was no climate impact of their product and up until this morning you believed them. And you're a smoker IIRC. I have some bad news for you on that front.

    The relevance of my comment is that you spout off bollocks about Big Oil Made Us Do It but you ignore it. Last week you flew to Tenerife and this is post-exposure of the deadly climate impacts of Big Oil.

    You hypocritical fucker.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,266
    TOPPING said:

    Wait, you are able to install solar panels on your 18th floor council flat? That's brilliant.
    18 floors? Luxury! Round here we're lucky to get two!

    Nearest 18 storey building must be in that there Leeds, I should think. Went there once, lots of cars and people and noise :open_mouth:
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    Leon said:

    These guys. Bravo. Fucking amazing food

    An absolute stand out meal where everything is simultaneously surprising, and healthy AND utterly delicious is so rare. I can’t recall the last time

    Sombok. Go there!


    Ok, everyone ready? Right, on the count of three, everyone say: "it came from a lab!"
  • And the Hamas-supporters screech about our attacks against Yemen...

    (I'm not arguing that our attacks are effective; they may or may not be. Just that the Houthi's actions need to be quashed.)
    Broken, sleazy Houthis on the slide?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    kinabalu said:

    We have seen some shocks in recent years, haven't we. But here I really would be - shocked. I think the Lab majority will be 3 digits.

    Just thinking, now you're well and truly back on PB we can do a bet if you like to supplement our current one.

    We 'cash out' the £300/£100 'Starmer PM post GE' bet at say £250 to me. I think that's slightly in your favour at current prices.

    But we don't settle. Instead we do a 'double or quits' on Labour outright majority at the GE.

    If it's 100 or above I win £500
    If it's below 100 we are Flat

    How does that sound?
    Sounds like you’ve forgotten that bet is either void or you’ve got it with @rcs1000
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    Selebian said:

    18 floors? Luxury! Round here we're lucky to get two!

    Nearest 18 storey building must be in that there Leeds, I should think. Went there once, lots of cars and people and noise :open_mouth:
    Ghastly.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    And the Hamas-supporters screech about our attacks against Yemen...

    (I'm not arguing that our attacks are effective; they may or may not be. Just that the Houthi's actions need to be quashed.)
    Countries have a duty to stop genocides - if Yemen believe (like many other nations do) that Israel's actions are tantamount to genocide, they have duty to attempt to blockade Israel and prevent armaments getting in. Blockades seem to be good when the West does it, but not when anyone else does... Of course, the next move would be for a coalition of nations in southern Africa to start monitoring the Cape of Good Hope in a similar way, slowing down shipping even further. I'm sure we'd quickly see the US and UK bombing South Africa. Because this has nothing to do with a "rules based international order" and everything to do with making money and Western interests.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    148grss said:

    But the answer has to be more specific than just build more - build more actually affordable housing where it is needed and for the people who need it and make sure it isn't just sold off to private landlords or investment companies. And that means popping, or deflating, the housing market. And that will be a big big problem. It's a rather awful Catch22 - you can't get young people on the housing ladder (and therefore more willing to embrace Thatcherism) without dealing with the consequences of Thatcherism (stagnating wages made up by treating houses as an ever inflating asset that can be leveraged later in life to make up for all the savings you don't have due to your stagnant wages).
    Oh bloody hell it's Fatcha's fault now, is it?

    Governments of all stripes, and with plenty of time to do it, have promised more housing (presumably using taxpayers' money) so the only conclusion we can draw is that we don't actually want to do it.

    But immigration is neither here nor there wrt the level of or pressure on housebuilding.
  • Sandpit said:

    If you’re lucky enough to have a house with a driveway, absolutely.

    If you’re not that lucky, on the other hand, the race to EVs is all sticks and no carrots at the moment.
    And that sizeable gap in the plan allows in all kinds of guff. What I don't understand is why the clickbait the morons merchants don't get them to ask "how do I charge it at my terraced house" - a valid point - instead of telling them it will explode / the battery will need to be replaced and costs £50k / "they" will remotely immobilise your car to trap you in your 15 minute city" etc.

    There is a desperation from many people to pull EVs apart that they cling onto any straw being offered.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    Oh. Sozza. So the oil companies told you that there was no climate impact of their product and up until this morning you believed them. And you're a smoker IIRC. I have some bad news for you on that front.

    The relevance of my comment is that you spout off bollocks about Big Oil Made Us Do It but you ignore it. Last week you flew to Tenerife and this is post-exposure of the deadly climate impacts of Big Oil.

    You hypocritical fucker.
    15% of people who fly frequently take 70% of all UK flights, while more than half the UK population don't fly at all in any given year. As always the issue is structural and not really about individual choices. Those frequent fliers tend to be wealthier and tend to fly for pleasure or work for multinational corporations. You're literally doing the comic meme.


  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    Oh bloody hell it's Fatcha's fault now, is it?

    Governments of all stripes, and with plenty of time to do it, have promised more housing (presumably using taxpayers' money) so the only conclusion we can draw is that we don't actually want to do it.

    But immigration is neither here nor there wrt the level of or pressure on housebuilding.
    Thatcherism is more than just Thatcher - indeed Blair "the heir to Thatcher" and Cameron "the heir to Blair" perpetuated Thatcherism.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,856
    148grss said:

    Thatcherism is more than just Thatcher - indeed Blair "the heir to Thatcher" and Cameron "the heir to Blair" perpetuated Thatcherism.
    This is too simplistic to be illuminating. The Blairite constitutional revolution and embrace of mass immigration was not Thatcherism.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    148grss said:

    15% of people who fly frequently take 70% of all UK flights, while more than half the UK population don't fly at all in any given year. As always the issue is structural and not really about individual choices. Those frequent fliers tend to be wealthier and tend to fly for pleasure or work for multinational corporations. You're literally doing the comic meme.


    Cliches are cliches for a reason. @kini was shouting the odds about beastly Big Oil yet fucked off on holiday using flights that are killing the planet. He says that they lied to us but whether they did or not I would put it in the tobacco companies are lying to us bucket. He was aware of the Big Lie when he booked the tickets.

    So put your money where your mouth is. Or rather, don't put your money where your mouth is.

    So yes hypocrite is exactly right. Believe there is a climate crisis? Don't fly to Tenerife.

    But it's only every 12 years everyone cries. But that is exactly what you criticise when people, analogously say "but the UK is a tiny part of world emissions".
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    isam said:

    Sounds like you’ve forgotten that bet is either void or you’ve got it with @rcs1000
    Come off it. Why would it be void? It's between me and you.

    RCS hasn't agreed to take it. If he does, fine by me, but he hasn't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    edited January 2024
    148grss said:

    Thatcherism is more than just Thatcher - indeed Blair "the heir to Thatcher" and Cameron "the heir to Blair" perpetuated Thatcherism.
    So you are railing against a political system that the overwhelming majority of your fellow citizens voted for.

    Fair enough. I know that you have a particular political philosophy and I respect it, much as I disagree with it. But you should also be aware of the limitations and weaknesses of attempting such a wholesale restructuring of our society which, experience has shown, most people simply don't want.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,856
    On the US elections, a Trump-Haley ticket might be Biden's worst nightmare.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,824
    Some stats

    The median age in Cambodia is 27. Just 27! And it feels like it. The whole country bursts with youthful vigour and optimism

    Meanwhile the fertility rate is still well above replacement - 2.4 - and life expectancy has now surged to 76 (not far behind America, incredibly)

    If I knew how to turn personal foreign investment into money (I don’t) I would invest in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia

    They all have remarkably bright futures (technology and war permitting). Lands of bright promise
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,137
    The YOPers at CCHQ have got hold of photoshop again...


  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,244

    Ok, everyone ready? Right, on the count of three, everyone say: "it came from a lab!"
    It's Korea where they eat dogs. Not Cambodia.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    .

    This is too simplistic to be illuminating. The Blairite constitutional revolution and embrace of mass immigration was not Thatcherism.
    The housing policy pretty well was, though.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    kinabalu said:

    Come off it. Why would it be void? It's between me and you.

    RCS hasn't agreed to take it. If he does, fine by me, but he hasn't.
    You agreed it was either void or you had it with Robert
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    In a logistics meeting. UK government giving a 3 month grace period on new paperwork restrictions imposed on 31/1 because if they don't there would be chaos at the border. French authorities giving no such leeway.

    Stock up anything that includes non UK meat / dairy. Which is an awful lot of products...

    What about non-dairy perishables such as tomatoes, etc.? Or am I missing something?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,630
    Leon said:

    Mate. You still believe in the Wet Market just because you find lab leak “upsetting”. The time when you were worth listening to on anything scientific is long gone
    You do love to try to wind people up. I'm very happy with my scientific credential, thanks. And I don't find the lab leak theory upsetting - I just haven't seen convincing evidence that confirms it or denies it. There's a big difference.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    .

    It's Korea where they eat dogs. Not Cambodia.
    They just legislated to ban that.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    Cliches are cliches for a reason. @kini was shouting the odds about beastly Big Oil yet fucked off on holiday using flights that are killing the planet. He says that they lied to us but whether they did or not I would put it in the tobacco companies are lying to us bucket. He was aware of the Big Lie when he booked the tickets.

    So put your money where your mouth is. Or rather, don't put your money where your mouth is.

    So yes hypocrite is exactly right. Believe there is a climate crisis? Don't fly to Tenerife.

    But it's only every 12 years everyone cries. But that is exactly what you criticise when people, analogously say "but the UK is a tiny part of world emissions".
    A person flying once in a dozen years is not comparable to the argument "the UK is a tiny part of world emissions" because what the UK does is offshore its emissions in other countries and is a huge part of world consumption per capita. You can point the finger at China or India, but the factories powered by fossil fuels are not making products for a primarily domestic consumer base, but a Western one.

    The only way to make your individual carbon footprint good is to be wealthy enough to buy carbon credits (which we haven't materially made work yet, so are a lie) or to go hide in a cave. Is flying to Tenerife a luxury, yes, but if we lived in a sensible world it would be a sustainable luxury if only we regulated those who take the most flights and developed methods to offset that.

    It's like animal products; there is a whole spectrum between being a vegan and eating the average daily meat of a US citizen. If those who did it the most were willing to reduce, everyone could have a little bit and it still be okay (from an environmental standpoint, ignoring any arguments from animal welfare). But because they predominantly don't, those who advocate for veganism from an environmental perspective have to do be full (pardon the pun) cold turkey on the issue.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    Scott_xP said:

    The YOPers at CCHQ have got hold of photoshop again...


    Very effective poster. I mean despicable for several reasons but I'm sure it will be effective.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    It's Korea where they eat dogs. Not Cambodia.
    They have fermented mudfish instead. Which are at least less cuddly and not man's best friend afaik.

    https://www.beatthebucketlist.com/blog/cambodian-street-food
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,397
    148grss said:

    Countries have a duty to stop genocides - if Yemen believe (like many other nations do) that Israel's actions are tantamount to genocide, they have duty to attempt to blockade Israel and prevent armaments getting in. Blockades seem to be good when the West does it, but not when anyone else does... Of course, the next move would be for a coalition of nations in southern Africa to start monitoring the Cape of Good Hope in a similar way, slowing down shipping even further. I'm sure we'd quickly see the US and UK bombing South Africa. Because this has nothing to do with a "rules based international order" and everything to do with making money and Western interests.
    What the Houthis are doing is f-all to do with Israel - it's to do with Iran and Russia's war with the west.

    I'm amazed at how easily people on the left back those whose views are utterly counter to leftist, or even socialist, values.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Leon said:

    Some stats

    The median age in Cambodia is 27. Just 27! And it feels like it. The whole country bursts with youthful vigour and optimism

    Meanwhile the fertility rate is still well above replacement - 2.4 - and life expectancy has now surged to 76 (not far behind America, incredibly)

    If I knew how to turn personal foreign investment into money (I don’t) I would invest in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia

    They all have remarkably bright futures (technology and war permitting). Lands of bright promise

    Japan and Korea have heavily invested in Vietnam.

    Median age of Niger is 15.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,630

    On EVs, power and charging I think the big barrier is this:
    Most cars spend most of their time parked. Which means that for most users most of the time there is no need to think about charging if you can charge when parked. Which for millions means parked at home as we sleep.

    A car that refuels as you sleep is just something people struggle with as they are so used to filling stations...

    Fine for those with drives. less good for those who park on the street (currently - I am sure solutions can be found for that). A friend hates his work Tesla for just that reason - he lives in a flat and has to make a specific journey to charge. No overnight charge for him.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    148grss said:

    A person flying once in a dozen years is not comparable to the argument "the UK is a tiny part of world emissions"
    It is exactly analogous. The excuse is it's only once what harm does it do in the greater scheme of things. The analogous excuse is it's only the UK which accounts for X.XX% of global emissions.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,856
    Nigelb said:

    .

    The housing policy pretty well was, though.
    Except that Thatcher/Lawson/Major allowed the housing market to correct after it overheated, whereas Blair/Brown/Cameron/Osborne kept on propping it up however they could.
  • .
    Scott_xP said:

    The YOPers at CCHQ have got hold of photoshop again...


    Thats ok. Their next poster is him jailing sub-postmasters. The one after that is him opening the door to a girls hospital ward for Jimmy Saville. The one after that is him letting the bat out of the Wuhan lab...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    TOPPING said:

    Oh. Sozza. So the oil companies told you that there was no climate impact of their product and up until this morning you believed them. And you're a smoker IIRC. I have some bad news for you on that front.

    The relevance of my comment is that you spout off bollocks about Big Oil Made Us Do It but you ignore it. Last week you flew to Tenerife and this is post-exposure of the deadly climate impacts of Big Oil.

    You hypocritical fucker.
    I merely pointed out that the oil companies lied for decades about the climate impact of their product. Surprised such a bland recital of historical fact should get you in such a tizz. Maybe you need a holiday. If so I can definitely recommend Tenerife. Lovely it was.
  • On the US elections, a Trump-Haley ticket might be Biden's worst nightmare.

    It might be but I suspect it won't happen as Haley would infuriate much of the base (there is a good chance Haley would become President in the next few years) and his comments about her would be easy fodder for the Democrats to use. If he wants a female VP pick, then probably Joni Ernst or (probably more maybe) Elise Stefanik.
  • .

    Thats ok. Their next poster is him jailing sub-postmasters. The one after that is him opening the door to a girls hospital ward for Jimmy Saville. The one after that is him letting the bat out of the Wuhan lab...
    Black Death? Starmer that one too. I don't know he gets away with it. Not to mention he had a korma once. At least go for a tikka masala even if you can't handle a phal or vindaloo.
  • TheKitchenCabinetTheKitchenCabinet Posts: 2,275
    edited January 2024
    I'm sure this has been mentioned given the numerous reporting of Trump's court cases on here but, just in case it hasn't, the Georgia case looks to be imploding in spectacular fashion as Fani Willis has refused to deny she had an affair with her prosecutor on the Trump case.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,555
    YouGov provide a downloadable spreadsheet of the MRP 2024 results per consistency.

    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_MRP_January_2024_results.csv

    Largest Conservative majority is 16% (37% Vs 21% Lab) in Christchurch.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    What the Houthis are doing is f-all to do with Israel - it's to do with Iran and Russia's war with the west.

    I'm amazed at how easily people on the left back those whose views are utterly counter to leftist, or even socialist, values.
    The Houthis are, indeed, mostly bad. Mostly bad actors can sometimes do good things for good reasons; just as mostly good actors can sometimes do bad things for bad reasons. Maybe the Houthis are doing a good thing for a bad reason - I can't read the mind of a collection of people half the world away, only read the public statements they make.
  • NEW THREAD

  • .

    Thats ok. Their next poster is him jailing sub-postmasters. The one after that is him opening the door to a girls hospital ward for Jimmy Saville. The one after that is him letting the bat out of the Wuhan lab...
    Some great ideas there Rochdale.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    It might be but I suspect it won't happen as Haley would infuriate much of the base (there is a good chance Haley would become President in the next few years) and his comments about her would be easy fodder for the Democrats to use. If he wants a female VP pick, then probably Joni Ernst or (probably more maybe) Elise Stefanik.
    Trump will not pick Haley, and I doubt Haley would accept. And I don't think it will be either of those - I think it will be Arizonas failed governor candidate for the GOP Kari Lake.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,724

    I don't want an alternative to the US. I want the West to arm and ally.
    You introduced the topic by talking about how the "US pins up the whole West". Do you think the West is viable without that pin? If we don't have the US, is a looser "arm and ally" strategy going to be to uphold the West in the same way?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,724

    And though I'm hesitant to say it, the 'right' sort of immigration. Allow people in with skills we need, and not just anyone who pays people smugglers to get in.
    The number of people let in based on their skills has been much, much higher than the number of people getting in via people smugglers in every year since WWII.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    Leon said:

    I’m a Boomer and I had a ton of fun in the 1990s. Also in the 2010s
    Been having fun since 70's and still booming
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,312

    YouGov provide a downloadable spreadsheet of the MRP 2024 results per consistency.

    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_MRP_January_2024_results.csv

    Largest Conservative majority is 16% (37% Vs 21% Lab) in Christchurch.

    In that csv... there are no Conservative gains. That's quite unusual. Even in a solid majority some awkward-bugger seats go the other way.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155
    TOPPING said:

    It is exactly analogous. The excuse is it's only once what harm does it do in the greater scheme of things. The analogous excuse is it's only the UK which accounts for X.XX% of global emissions.
    Actually, if CO2 emissions were a "once in a while" thing, it would be fine. That they are not is the major problem. That they are not is, mostly, due to the consumption of the West. If every person on the planet Earth lived like the average person in the UK you would need the resources of more than 3 Earths; if every person on the planet Earth lived like the average person in China or India that hovers around 1 Earths worth of resources. This is massively off kilter not only because the average persons consumption is much greater in the UK (and the West in general) but also because of the acceptance of lifestyles of extreme consumption beyond normal persons ken. Again, CO2 emissions in China and India, for example, are mainly for the benefit of consumption that takes place outside of their own countries - due to colonial and post colonial organisations of economies, offshoring and the ever hungry profit motive that needs to see infinite growth to be considered successful. It doesn't matter if we no longer emit the CO2 from factories within our borders if our populace is still incentivised and prioritised when it comes to consuming the goods that come from those emissions.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,715
    kinabalu said:

    I merely pointed out that the oil companies lied for decades about the climate impact of their product. Surprised such a bland recital of historical fact should get you in such a tizz. Maybe you need a holiday. If so I can definitely recommend Tenerife. Lovely it was.
    Can I cycle there?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,397
    148grss said:

    The Houthis are, indeed, mostly bad. Mostly bad actors can sometimes do good things for good reasons; just as mostly good actors can sometimes do bad things for bad reasons. Maybe the Houthis are doing a good thing for a bad reason - I can't read the mind of a collection of people half the world away, only read the public statements they make.
    If you're saying firing missiles at civilian ships is a 'good thing' then you've disappeared down a moral black hole.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,724
    148grss said:

    Countries have a duty to stop genocides - if Yemen believe (like many other nations do) that Israel's actions are tantamount to genocide, they have duty to attempt to blockade Israel and prevent armaments getting in. Blockades seem to be good when the West does it, but not when anyone else does... Of course, the next move would be for a coalition of nations in southern Africa to start monitoring the Cape of Good Hope in a similar way, slowing down shipping even further. I'm sure we'd quickly see the US and UK bombing South Africa. Because this has nothing to do with a "rules based international order" and everything to do with making money and Western interests.
    I don't know what the Houthis believes they are doing, but they are attacking ships that aren't going to/from Israel. Their actions are not a blockade of Israel, or if they are, they are a very incompetent and ineffective blockade of Israel.

  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,266
    In this area, I have been seeing a partial solution to the charging problem for electric cars that might -- I repeat might, since I don't know enough about Britain to be sure -- be a partial solution you can use, too. A large regional chain, selling mostly food, but a little bit of almost everything else, Fred Meyer, is installing charging stations in its parking lots. Here's an example, near me: https://chargehub.com/en/stations/wa/bellevue/fred-meyer-023-bellevue.html?locId=36451 (Seattle is just off the map, to the west.)

    They have had these stations for several years now, and jsut recently added Tesla charging stations to the one I visit, from time to time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Meyer
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    isam said:

    You agreed it was either void or you had it with Robert
    RCS never replied to that 'netting' proposition of yours. It was left unresolved. If he is happy to take it then fine, but he hasn't said so. So I'm assuming he isn't.

    £100 at 3/1 Starmer to be PM after the GE. That's our bet.
  • Let no man lower you so low as to hate him - Martin Luther King, Jr

    Plenty of stuff - and guff - in media this MLK Day re: tonight's Iowa Republican precinct caucuses; best wait for tonight's results & etc.

    In the meantime . . .

    New York Times ($) - In Race to Replace George Santos, Financial Questions Re-emerge
    Mazi Pilip, the Republican candidate running in New York’s Third District, drew scrutiny after her initial financial disclosure was missing required information.

    The Republican nominee in a special House election to replace George Santos in New York provided a hazy glimpse into her personal finances this week, submitting a sworn financial statement to Congress that prompted questions and led her to amend the filing.

    The little-known candidate, Mazi Pilip, reported between $1 million and $5.2 million in assets, largely comprising her husband’s medical practice and Bitcoin investments. In an unusual disclosure, she said the couple owed and later repaid as much as $250,000 to the I.R.S. last year.

    But the initial financial report Ms. Pilip filed with the House Ethics Committee on Wednesday appeared to be missing other important required information, including whether the assets were owned solely by herself or her husband, Dr. Adalbert Pilip, or whether they were owned jointly.

    And despite making past statements that she stopped working there in 2021 when she ran for the Nassau County Legislature, Ms. Pilip reported receiving a $50,000 salary from the family medical practice in 2022 and 2023.

    The inconsistencies seemed nowhere near the level of Mr. Santos’s widespread misstatements, which prompted federal prosecutors to charge him with falsifying congressional records before he was expelled. But after inquiries from The New York Times, Ms. Pilip materially amended the statement on Friday.

    The updated paperwork disclosed for the first time that she had a legislative pension; identified her husband as the sole owner of the medical practice, New York Comprehensive Medical Care; and disclosed previously unreported investments and liabilities, including at least $50,000 in medical school loans for Dr. Pilip.

    Ms. Pilip also revised her earned income, reporting that she had earned far less from the medical practice: $13,472 in 2022 and nothing in 2023. (She earned $80,000 as a local lawmaker.)

    Her campaign played down the initial omissions as innocent mistakes by a team working on an abbreviated schedule before next month’s special election. . . .

    Ethics experts said the changes warranted further study. All House candidates must file disclosure forms annually, attesting that the information is “true, complete and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief” at risk of prosecution.

    “The canary in the mine can be discrepancies on their financial disclosure statements,” said Kedric Payne, the senior director of ethics at the Campaign Legal Center. . . .
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    edited January 2024
    kinabalu said:

    RCS never replied to that 'netting' proposition of yours. It was left unresolved. If he is happy to take it then fine, but he hasn't said so. So I'm assuming he isn't.

    £100 at 3/1 Starmer to be PM after the GE. That's our bet.
    No it isn’t. I suggested voiding it or Robert paying you. There was no option to keep it, and you replied

    “ Happy whatever, I mean. We can keep it or we can void it. Your suggestion is also fine by me if it's fine by rcs.”

    So you’re happy to void it, or Robert pays you
  • YouGov provide a downloadable spreadsheet of the MRP 2024 results per consistency.

    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_MRP_January_2024_results.csv

    Largest Conservative majority is 16% (37% Vs 21% Lab) in Christchurch.

    Looking at that spreadsheet you can see the path between the 120 majority forecast and 180 as Blair got in 1997. Too many seats with the Tories just about clinging on as Lab/LD split the vote. In reality so many of those will go to the closest challenger...
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,266
    DuraAce - You certainly know far more about about Britain's ability to build good warships than I do, but I figure that what you have done in the past, you can do again.

    (Incidentally, locating new shipyards and factories in distressed areas might make political sense, as well as economic sense.)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,724

    I'm sure this has been mentioned given the numerous reporting of Trump's court cases on here but, just in case it hasn't, the Georgia case looks to be imploding in spectacular fashion as Fani Willis has refused to deny she had an affair with her prosecutor on the Trump case.

    Whether she did or did not have an affair with her prosecutor is not a cause why the case would fail, however.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    148grss said:

    Countries have a duty to stop genocides - if Yemen believe (like many other nations do) that Israel's actions are tantamount to genocide, they have duty to attempt to blockade Israel and prevent armaments getting in. Blockades seem to be good when the West does it, but not when anyone else does... Of course, the next move would be for a coalition of nations in southern Africa to start monitoring the Cape of Good Hope in a similar way, slowing down shipping even further. I'm sure we'd quickly see the US and UK bombing South Africa. Because this has nothing to do with a "rules based international order" and everything to do with making money and Western interests.
    Only thing the Houthis need is a good thrashing , bomb them back to the stone age for their stupidity.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    If you're saying firing missiles at civilian ships is a 'good thing' then you've disappeared down a moral black hole.
    Israel is bombing hundreds of thousands of civilians and people are saying just that. Indeed, the UK and the US have started bombing Yemen, I'm sure there will be civilians killed in those strikes. How many civilians do we kill with our blockades, our sanctions? No one cares that civilians are dying - they care that Western interests are being threatened, that the free flow of goods is being slowed. The evidence put forward by South Africa the other day has seriously doomer pilled me - the reaction (and, indeed, lack of it) from Western media and powers is telling. At the end of the day, to the West, the non-West is where it's fine if people die violent deaths at the hands of whoever. It's only when a country in the club is threatened that anyone cares. And I no longer care about keeping up the pretence that that is fine to believe. If it doesn't matter that tens of thousands of Palestinian children are being slaughtered, why should I care if some civilian ships are fired on? It's a moral mole hill next to a mountain of corpses.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,012
    The Tories are about as buggered as Andy Dufresne.
This discussion has been closed.