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The inevitable result of having an insurrectionist controlling the GOP? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Regarding your second sentence, I've said it before and I'll say it again - just STOP copying content directly from my Tinder profile. It's clear breach of copyright, and I'm absolutely sick of it.
    Look for "Hot Salty Fat" on OnlyFans.com

    And ask for psephologists discount!
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,653
    Scott_xP said:

    I don't recall ever seeing one in an American strip club, but at a birthday party a burlesque performer was invited to give a 'dance' class as entertainment, and handed them out to the guests
    Yeah - in my experience the burlesque scene was mad for them. Working as a photographer at the time it was extremely tedious waiting for someone to try and 'safety glue' a pastie to their boob 20 times before giving up and just using sellotape.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,844

    Hopefully not. They are using him far too much. He’s so hated and unpopular he’s suppressing the Conservative vote now.

    He’s overdone the good news persona. Whatever he promises now, the instinctive reaction from voters is: believe it when we see it from him.

    If they use different presenters, these adverts would be 100% better.

    And before you think of replying, who’s popular in this rotten borough of a government, I’m talking fresh, different faces and voices to front the re-election campaign - Atkins, Trott, Coutinho, Badenoch, Glenn, Mourdant. Over using Rishi with his unpopularity as it is, not only suppresses effectiveness of the messaging, but it’s pushing Sunak’s own ratings further down.

    Anyone disagree?
    No. Their Facebook spend is hugely skewed toward ads going out from Sunak’s page not the Tory page. That tells me they're trying to feed Sunak's popularity (lost cause) so that he has a case to remain as leader. They don't care where it leaves the Party.

    The only thing I disagree with is your idea that they push forward the list of 'new talent' you've identified.
  • Yeah, I'd get nowhere near those times. Sadly. even for my age group. 3hr 25 is a fast time for a 50-year old IMV. If you look at (1), I think it puts you into the 'advanced' category...

    (1): https://runninglevel.com/running-times/marathon-times
    I've entered a couple of mountain bike races for this summer. I expect to be very near the back of the field, if not last. The good news is as I'm 57, I'm classified as a "grand veteran", and last year in both races that classification had only 2 riders! I'm probably guaranteed a podium position, even if I finish last!
  • IanB2 said:

    Strictly, when the PO realised something was wrong, they were willing to fund an independent investigation and fund an independent mediation scheme. Arbuthnot has said that his initial interactions with Vennells et al were constructive.

    When they realised that what was wrong was a huge iceberg that would sink the entire ship, then somehow - yet to be established - they decided to obstruct and cover up. Which is shameful, and the main task of the inquiry to uncover.

    Paradoxically, their original willingness to open their books is evidence that, at the top of the organisation at least, they didn’t have a full understanding of the abject shambles they were sitting on, long after it was apparent to people further down whose working lives were deep within it.
    The people at the top are ignorant of shit long after those further down are deep within it.

    In the beginning, there was a plan,
    And then came the assumptions,
    And the assumptions were without form,
    And the plan without substance,

    And the darkness was upon the face of the workers,
    And they spoke among themselves saying,
    "It is a crock of shit and it stinks."

    And the workers went unto their Supervisors and said,
    "It is a pile of dung, and we cannot live with the smell."

    And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying,
    "It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong,
    Such that none may abide by it."

    And the Managers went unto their Directors saying,
    "It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide by its strength."

    And the Directors spoke among themselves saying to one another,
    "It contains that which aids plants growth, and it is very strong."

    And the Directors went to the Vice Presidents saying unto them,
    "It promotes growth, and it is very powerful."

    And the Vice Presidents went to the President, saying unto him,
    "This new plan will actively promote the growth and vigor
    Of the company With very powerful effects."

    And the President looked upon the Plan
    And saw that it was good,
    And the Plan became Policy.

    And this, my friend, is how shit happens.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,133

    It was on North End, so pedestrianised. :)
    You ran 25 miles, and the bus stop was just 374 feet away….
  • ohnotnow said:

    Yeah - in my experience the burlesque scene was mad for them. Working as a photographer at the time it was extremely tedious waiting for someone to try and 'safety glue' a pastie to their boob 20 times before giving up and just using sellotape.
    Gentleman would have offered to assist. Did you?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    IanB2 said:

    You ran 25 miles, and the bus stop was just 374 feet away….
    The bus stop's no use, it's the bus you need.
  • For the record, I've never set foot in a Greggs, apart from once being called to a store light fitting that was giving off a "funny, burning smell". Smelt better than the food. The coffee was shite, but I am a coffee snob, so that's on me.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,278
    ohnotnow said:

    Apologies if this has already been posted.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-67932247

    HS2 to Birmingham may cost £65bn, railway boss says

    The London to Birmingham stretch of the HS2 railway could cost more than £65bn in current prices, the boss of the company building it has said.

    Sir Jonathan Thompson said a rise in the cost of materials such as concrete and steel over the past few years have added £8bn to £10bn.

    In October the government cancelled the sections between the West Midlands, Manchester, and the East Midlands.

    Now HS2 Ltd and the government disagree on the cost of building the rest.

    Not only that, but trains to Manchester will have fewer seats and be slower than at present. Welcome to Broken Britain!

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/trains-manchester-slower-fewer-seats-28421031
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    edited January 2024
    "The myth of Brooklyn’s ‘Jew tunnels’
    Why is so much of the West in the grip of anti-Semitic paranoia?
    Brendan O'Neill"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/01/10/the-myth-of-brooklyns-jew-tunnels/
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Andy_JS said:

    But the rest of us do.
    The rest of who exactly? Most ordinary people couldn’t give a crap. I accept there are weird fetishists on PB, but that is hardly news.
  • Good news for Lauren Boebert . . . sorta . . .

    AP (via Seattle Times) - Police investigation finds Colorado U.S. Rep. Lauren Boebert didn’t punch ex-husband as he claimed

    DENVER (AP) — U.S. Rep. Lauren Boebert has been cleared of domestic violence allegations made by her ex-husband during an altercation at a Colorado restaurant, police said Wednesday.

    Jayson Boebert had accused the congresswoman of punching him in the face but he later recanted, Silt police said in a statement. The restaurant did not have any surveillance video recording at the time and no witnesses came forward to provide a statement about what happened, police said.

    “Due to a lack of any evidence, the allegations of domestic violence against Rep. Lauren Boebert are unfounded and the investigation into Rep. Lauren Boebert is closed,” police said.

    Jayson Boebert was arrested Tuesday for third-degree criminal trespass, obstruction and disorderly conduct in connection with the restaurant incident, Kite said, along with other charges pursued by county authorities. He was released the same day, according to jail records.

    Jayson Boebert did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

    It’s unclear what happened at the Miner’s Claim restaurant but Boebert’s campaign released a statement Sunday in which she said she “didn’t punch Jayson in the face and no one was arrested. I will be consulting with my lawyer about the false claims he made against me and evaluate all of my legal options.” . . .
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Greggs is shit.

    Penny for your thoughts.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075

    No. Their Facebook spend is hugely skewed toward ads going out from Sunak’s page not the Tory page. That tells me they're trying to feed Sunak's popularity (lost cause) so that he has a case to remain as leader. They don't care where it leaves the Party.

    The only thing I disagree with is your idea that they push forward the list of 'new talent' you've identified.
    “ The only thing I disagree with is your idea that they push forward the list of 'new talent' you've identified.”.

    That’s because I’m trying to help the Conservative Party, and your not. You can’t wait for Braverman or Badenoch to take over.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited January 2024
    Andy_JS said:

    "The myth of Brooklyn’s ‘Jew tunnels’
    Why is so much of the West in the grip of anti-Semitic paranoia?
    Brendan O'Neill"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/01/10/the-myth-of-brooklyns-jew-tunnels/

    Quite. Finding a mucky mattress in a tunnel is hardly astounding. Anyone who has done an archaeological etc excavation will be very glad to have something relatively clean and soft to lie on when digging.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,569

    Yes, the danger of self-ID is that you could end up with Republicans using Democrat toilets, or vice-versa.
    Nobody would use Republican toilets. They're clogged full of shit.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075
    Cyclefree said:

    The drama touched a nerve because it epitomised what a lot of people feel about how this country is being run - for the benefit of a few, who think only of themselves, take the rest of us for mugs and are quite willing to abuse their power, even at the expense of others' lives, businesses, livelihoods and happiness.

    It is people like Nick Wallis, Computer Weekly and those lawyers who worked for the subpostmasters who deserve the real praise. And ITV for having the courage and budget to make this story real in a way that touched people's hearts. I bet they never imagined it would get this reaction.

    What Sunak has announced today is a start but there is much still to be done so the pressure needs to be kept up. I have not in fact seen the details because for work clients I have over the last two days been writing articles on the computer law and whistleblowing aspects of this. But now I have some time to catch up.
    “What Sunak has announced today is a start”

    Is it though? Has Sunak’s “can’t get anything right” government over complicated this, brought all sorts of unnecessary courts v parliament battles into this, to the determent of the victims? Or is Sunak’s Populist, Judge Hating Government even cynically using this in their long running populist cause against courts, to the determent of the victims?

    I don’t know But Was the option of a special case to go through the Court of Appeals not just as quick, but ultimately all round better experience and outcome for the victims, and devoid of any argued over precedents? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67940193
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,133

    James Arbuthnot is someone I know personally and a real hero of this story.

    Part of the problem with the Tory party is they've lost people like him.
    He wasn’t that great when he was younger, and when he was my MP the Tory councillors disliked him. He seems to have mellowed and matured since then.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,569
    Foxy said:

    Not only that, but trains to Manchester will have fewer seats and be slower than at present. Welcome to Broken Britain!

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/trains-manchester-slower-fewer-seats-28421031
    The boss building it is apparently unaware that due to their greater powers of acceleration HS2 trains will not, in fact, be slower on the WCML than current trains.

    We could do 125 without tilt already if we wanted.

    The issue is the lack of capacity.

    Well, among other issues, like the stupidity of the DfT in keeping only the most expensive part of the line.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,569
    Cyclefree said:

    The drama touched a nerve because it epitomised what a lot of people feel about how this country is being run - for the benefit of a few, who think only of themselves, take the rest of us for mugs and are quite willing to abuse their power, even at the expense of others' lives, businesses, livelihoods and happiness.

    It is people like Nick Wallis, Computer Weekly and those lawyers who worked for the subpostmasters who deserve the real praise. And ITV for having the courage and budget to make this story real in a way that touched people's hearts. I bet they never imagined it would get this reaction.

    What Sunak has announced today is a start but there is much still to be done so the pressure needs to be kept up. I have not in fact seen the details because for work clients I have over the last two days been writing articles on the computer law and whistleblowing aspects of this. But now I have some time to catch up.
    There is a certain irony of course that ITV's own boss is one of those who might and probably should face criminal charges over this.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,133
    edited January 2024

    The people at the top are ignorant of shit long after those further down are deep within it.

    In the beginning, there was a plan,
    And then came the assumptions,
    And the assumptions were without form,
    And the plan without substance,

    And the darkness was upon the face of the workers,
    And they spoke among themselves saying,
    "It is a crock of shit and it stinks."

    And the workers went unto their Supervisors and said,
    "It is a pile of dung, and we cannot live with the smell."

    And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying,
    "It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong,
    Such that none may abide by it."

    And the Managers went unto their Directors saying,
    "It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide by its strength."

    And the Directors spoke among themselves saying to one another,
    "It contains that which aids plants growth, and it is very strong."

    And the Directors went to the Vice Presidents saying unto them,
    "It promotes growth, and it is very powerful."

    And the Vice Presidents went to the President, saying unto him,
    "This new plan will actively promote the growth and vigor
    Of the company With very powerful effects."

    And the President looked upon the Plan
    And saw that it was good,
    And the Plan became Policy.

    And this, my friend, is how shit happens.
    That’s very evident from the evidence to the inquiry from Miller, Sweetman and Roberts. Compare and contrast.

    The problem the inquiry has is that people who have worked their way up to senior management rarely take strong positions and have expertise in the politics of compromise such that their real views rarely get set down anywhere as written evidence; all of them are constantly adjusting for what (they think) those around them think, and things are decided not in formal set piece meetings but in informal unrecorded chats. Coupled with their hazy recollections, and some probable deliberate amnesia, and they’re probably going to have to blame them all. Which will mean that any meaningful penalties will be corporate rather than individual.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    O/T but this is nice (esp for @bondegezou )

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/10/i-discovered-tree-kangaroo-only-seen-once-1928-aoe

    If sad at times:

    "On another trip to Papua New Guinea, I went looking for a little possum called Telefomin cuscus, which was believed to have gone extinct after extensive forest fires in 1997.

    I found one, but unfortunately it was being barbecued by a local family. I really wished they had found another source of protein, but you can’t blame people for needing food."
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    edited January 2024
    ydoethur said:

    There is a certain irony of course that ITV's own boss is one of those who might and probably should face criminal charges over this.
    Isn't Crozier at BT now? Another bunch of sharks and fiddlers.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,729
    Carnyx said:

    O/T but this is nice (esp for @bondegezou )

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/10/i-discovered-tree-kangaroo-only-seen-once-1928-aoe

    If sad at times:

    "On another trip to Papua New Guinea, I went looking for a little possum called Telefomin cuscus, which was believed to have gone extinct after extensive forest fires in 1997.

    I found one, but unfortunately it was being barbecued by a local family. I really wished they had found another source of protein, but you can’t blame people for needing food."

    Always nice to hear how the cousins back home are doing.
  • Carnyx said:

    Quite. Finding a mucky mattress in a tunnel is hardly astounding. Anyone who has done an archaeological etc excavation will be very glad to have something relatively clean and soft to lie on when digging.
    NOT finding a mucky mattress in NYC tunnel - now THAT really would be news.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,884
    DavidL said:

    The key for me in the case of the SPMs and those who died or had their lives ruined by contaminated blood is do we have a legal system and a system of Justice that can hold the powerful to account. Does that slightly dodgy blindfold that Justice has over her eyes when weighing the rights and wrongs exist or is it simply a delusion that kids us into believing we have a justice system worthy of the name?

    And that question has not been answered. It is not enough that victims of miscarriages of justice be acquitted or pardoned. It is not enough that they are compensated (as if mere money could right such wrongs).

    It will be answered in the affirmative when the senior management of such organisations go to jail and our assumptions about what people in high positions can get away with are altered.

    And it has not happened yet.

    The curious thing about the Post Office scandal to me is the sheer scale of it. If one of two unfortunate individuals had been wrongly convicted they might have thought they could get away with it. But we're talking industrial levels of misappropriation involving hundreds of individuals. How did they think they would cover that up?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,711
    Carnyx said:

    You forgot the empire biscuits, only available in Scotland, for obvious political reasons.
    Too much icing. This is the only scottish biscuit for me:

    https://groceries.aldi.co.uk/en-GB/p-simmers-abernethy-250g/011732007960

    At a staggering £2.36 per kilo, I'm not sure Greggs can compete.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,569
    In other news, apparently Russia is struggling due to ultra-low temperatures.

    Darth Putin of course is feasting on schadenfreude.

    https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1745088720519196941
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,844

    “ The only thing I disagree with is your idea that they push forward the list of 'new talent' you've identified.”.

    That’s because I’m trying to help the Conservative Party, and your not. You can’t wait for Braverman or Badenoch to take over.
    Hang on a minute, you're the one who gave Badenoch as one of your list of bright young things we should hear more from! I don't rate Badenoch - she talks a great talk and I wish she lived up to it but she doesn't. I also have big reservations about Braverman's leadership ambitions.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,569
    Former Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, who is not campaigning in Iowa and instead is staking his candidacy on New Hampshire, said at a town-hall event in the state that he would not endorse Ms. Haley unless she removed herself from potential consideration as Mr. Trump’s running mate.

    NY Times
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,844
    Carnyx said:

    O/T but this is nice (esp for @bondegezou )

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/10/i-discovered-tree-kangaroo-only-seen-once-1928-aoe

    If sad at times:

    "On another trip to Papua New Guinea, I went looking for a little possum called Telefomin cuscus, which was believed to have gone extinct after extensive forest fires in 1997.

    I found one, but unfortunately it was being barbecued by a local family. I really wished they had found another source of protein, but you can’t blame people for needing food."

    A sight better than other things they could have been eating.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,374

    I don't see that at all. The argument is Starmer has to go because the buck stopped with him. Surely if that is appropriate the same applies to the PM of the day. If Cameron is entitled to use the "I was told it was all Ok" card, so are the DPPs.

    I do nonetheless believe Starmer owes us an explanation.
    So, you wish SKS fans would explain this?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,729

    Yes. A hot chocolate.

    With marshmallows.
    I bought too much double cream over Xmas. Not paying attention when doing an online shop. Anyway, one thing led to another and I recommend making a hot chocolate with a mix of 60% double cream/40% whole milk.

    There was... I think they call it an intervention? And I'm not doing them any more, but I pass on the recipe.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,569
    ydoethur said:

    There is a certain irony of course that ITV's own boss is one of those who might and probably should face criminal charges over this.
    Eh? Carolyn McCall has had nothing to do with PO iirc.
  • Former Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, who is not campaigning in Iowa and instead is staking his candidacy on New Hampshire, said at a town-hall event in the state that he would not endorse Ms. Haley unless she removed herself from potential consideration as Mr. Trump’s running mate.

    NY Times

    More flatulence from Goodyear Blimp.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,148
    Sir Jon Thompson, executive chairman of HS2, admitted to the transport select committee that there could be a reduction in capacity once the line opened.

    He said: “In [this] scenario, there are less seats on the route from London to Manchester. In other words, capacity could go down.

    “The reason why I can’t be absolutely definitive about that is because it may, of course, be that somebody’s got a fantastic plan to resolve that, but I’m not aware of it.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-short-trains-fewer-seats-london-manchester-9p8schjhk
  • I bought too much double cream over Xmas. Not paying attention when doing an online shop. Anyway, one thing led to another and I recommend making a hot chocolate with a mix of 60% double cream/40% whole milk.

    There was... I think they call it an intervention? And I'm not doing them any more, but I pass on the recipe.
    Oooh, need to remember to try that when I start having chocolate again.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,844

    I bought too much double cream over Xmas. Not paying attention when doing an online shop. Anyway, one thing led to another and I recommend making a hot chocolate with a mix of 60% double cream/40% whole milk.

    There was... I think they call it an intervention? And I'm not doing them any more, but I pass on the recipe.
    It sounds delicious. Adding a tot of whisky to the mix could be a nice twist.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,148
    ...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,314

    Eh? Carolyn McCall has had nothing to do with PO iirc.
    From Popbitch https://popbitch.com/emails/hungarian-ventrilo-choir/

    "...A quick look at the cast list shows they’ve found someone to play Paula Vennells, the CEO of Post Office Ltd at the time, but there’s no-one playing Adam Crozier, who was CEO of Royal Mail Ltd.

    Crozier played a significant role in the real-life scandal, but looks to have been snipped out of the dramatisation. Maybe it was just too tricky to write the scene where Crozier left Royal Mail to become CEO of… ITV."
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    ...
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    That is very clever.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,729

    Oooh, need to remember to try that when I start having chocolate again.
    I used a Hotel Chocolat velvetiser to just melt chocolate (5 teaspoons) into the dairy mix.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,569
    Biden disapproval rating at +15% latest YouGov poll for Economist.

    He's got a hell of a job turning this around in less than twelve months.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327

    Yes. A hot chocolate.

    With marshmallows.
    Every one's a winner.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,729

    Biden disapproval rating at +15% latest YouGov poll for Economist.

    He's got a hell of a job turning this around in less than twelve months.

    Has any recent President ever faced such a torrent of concerted lies from the right-wing media? How does he counter that? That is my worry.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,569
    Scott_xP said:

    Sir Jon Thompson, executive chairman of HS2, admitted to the transport select committee that there could be a reduction in capacity once the line opened.

    He said: “In [this] scenario, there are less seats on the route from London to Manchester. In other words, capacity could go down.

    “The reason why I can’t be absolutely definitive about that is because it may, of course, be that somebody’s got a fantastic plan to resolve that, but I’m not aware of it.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hs2-short-trains-fewer-seats-london-manchester-9p8schjhk

    Sunak is an idiot.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,569

    Dixville Vote
    @DixvilleVote
    In the historic Tillotson House at The Balsams, Dixville Notch and its six voters will host New Hampshire’s only midnight vote of the 2024 #FITN Primary on January 23, continuing more than six-decades of tradition.

    🧵1/2

    https://twitter.com/DixvilleVote/status/1743378155363037640
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,278
    Carnyx said:

    O/T but this is nice (esp for @bondegezou )

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/jan/10/i-discovered-tree-kangaroo-only-seen-once-1928-aoe

    If sad at times:

    "On another trip to Papua New Guinea, I went looking for a little possum called Telefomin cuscus, which was believed to have gone extinct after extensive forest fires in 1997.

    I found one, but unfortunately it was being barbecued by a local family. I really wished they had found another source of protein, but you can’t blame people for needing food."

    Well, in PNG its quite a long way to the nearest Greggs.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,374

    Biden disapproval rating at +15% latest YouGov poll for Economist.

    He's got a hell of a job turning this around in less than twelve months.

    Basically under 10 months now.
  • Has any recent President ever faced such a torrent of concerted lies from the right-wing media? How does he counter that? That is my worry.
    Ah yes, the right wing, mmm, NYT, Washington Post, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, Vox, Salon errr and all the other right wing media

    Maybe his high disapproval rating has to do with people thinking he is sh1t….
  • Carnyx said:

    Well-fired macaroni Scots pie, or vegan haggis ditto. Or both if hungry.
    Vegan haggis from a van at Kilt Rock, Isle of Skye in 2019!
  • Foxy said:

    Well, in PNG its quite a long way to the nearest Greggs.
    A vegan possum bake for me, please :lol:
  • Biden disapproval rating at +15% latest YouGov poll for Economist.

    He's got a hell of a job turning this around in less than twelve months.

    If you and someone else are being chased by a bear, then you don't need to outrun the bear, you just need to outrun the other guy.

    Biden may not be popular, but he may be less unpopular than Trump.

    Nothing has changed since 2020 - he's acceptable, under the circumstances.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,161
    Letting Parliament meddle with convictions makes me feel very uneasy. Imagine if a Corbyn majority started to acquit violent protestors, or even terrorists, from 2017?

    The key difference with pardons is that the conviction still stands, right? Just that society has moved on from an outdated law. That way the law and courts are insulated from a meddling executive. The postmasters were convicted of theft or false accounting.

    The damage has already been done but there should be some mechanism for the courts to expedite these appeals, or address then en masse, and the Post Office, as wholly owned by the government, directed not to fight them.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,148
    @HuffPost

    JUST IN: Chris Christie Is Dropping Out Of 2024 GOP Presidential Race
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,419
    Scott_xP said:

    @HuffPost

    JUST IN: Chris Christie Is Dropping Out Of 2024 GOP Presidential Race

    No great surprise, but good news for Haley
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,729
    Eabhal said:

    Letting Parliament meddle with convictions makes me feel very uneasy. Imagine if a Corbyn majority started to acquit violent protestors, or even terrorists, from 2017?

    The key difference with pardons is that the conviction still stands, right? Just that society has moved on from an outdated law. That way the law and courts are insulated from a meddling executive. The postmasters were convicted of theft or false accounting.

    The damage has already been done but there should be some mechanism for the courts to expedite these appeals, or address then en masse, and the Post Office, as wholly owned by the government, directed not to fight them.

    BBC News comments on this here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67940193 There's an alternative suggestion that you set up a rapid appeal process to overturn false convictions in batches.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075
    edited January 2024
    darkage said:

    The legislation to exonerate postmasters and promises to 'speed up payments' were all quite predictable political consequences should the post office crisis blow up, as it now has. I think that the main issue for the victims is that something actually now happens and it doesn't go back in to the long grass whilst everyone moves on to try to solve the next 'injustice'. At least with some legislation then they do get the convictions removed.

    It is worth looking back at the Andrew Malkinson case last year, the guy who was jailed for 18 years but the conviction was then overturned. The government 'acted' then, setting up a public Inquiry etc. But as of last October he was living in a tent still waiting for his promised compensation.

    No.not for me.

    No.

    I don’t like the Tory Party saying it means guilty get off under the proposal - does it mean everyone now thought of as innocent, or now still suspected of might be guilty. Remember this flaw doesn’t have to be, happens only under the Sunak way of doing this. Other flaws in the Sunak scheme: Where the victims were named in paper and jailed individually as crooks, they won’t be exonerated individually in a court room. Where they are asked to sign saying they are innocent and not a crook in order to receive compensation, should they have to do that for the compensation, does that not still cast aspirations of not currently believing their innocence.

    And all these flaws unnecessary, as only happen in the Sunak way of doing this. As is completely unnecessary to bring the ultra Populist hobby horse of Parliament versus Courts into the mix.

    And we don’t know what years of convictions Sunak is limiting this to. We don’t know who gets compensation and who doesn’t. And we don’t know who gets what compensation, fairly for how they suffered. Sunak’s proposal is still a blank cheque in many regards.

    This explains Starmer’s very lukewarm warm response to Sunak’s proposal in the commons today. Sunak thinks everyone is so desperate now to see help for the victims, people have to support whatever he cobbles together and puts in front of them, because by the government bill route he can accuse them of using the victims as a political football if they object anyway. In other words, this is exactly what Sunak is playing at himself.

    Starmer and Davey should call Sunak out on this. They need to quickly move to make clear they reject Sunak’s scheme, and will vote against it. And ask for all party talks to establish an agreed all party approach, that both takes Parliament v Courts out of it, and treats the victims better.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,133

    No.not for me.

    No.

    I don’t like the Tory Party saying it means guilty get off under the proposal - does it mean everyone now thought of as innocent, or now still suspected of might be guilty. Remember this flaw doesn’t have to be, happens only under the Sunak way of doing this. Other flaws in the Sunak scheme: Where the victims were named in paper and jailed individually as crooks, they won’t be exonerated individually in a court room. Where they are asked to sign saying they are innocent and not a crook in order to receive compensation, should they have to do that for the compensation, does that not still cast aspirations of not currently believing their innocence.

    And all these flaws unnecessary, as only happen in the Sunak way of doing this. As is completely unnecessary to bring the ultra Populist hobby horse of Parliament versus Courts into the mix.

    And we don’t know what years of convictions Sunak is limiting this to. We don’t know who gets compensation and who doesn’t. And we don’t know who gets what compensation, fairly for how they suffered. Sunak’s proposal is still a blank cheque in many regards.

    This explains Starmer’s very lukewarm warm response to Sunak’s proposal in the commons today. Sunak thinks everyone is so desperate now to see help for the victims, people have to support whatever he cobbles together and puts in front of them, because by the government bill route he can accuse them of using the victims as a political football if they object anyway. In other words, this is exactly what Sunak is playing at himself.

    Starmer and Davey should call Sunak out on this. They need to quickly move to make clear they reject Sunak’s scheme, and will vote against it. And ask for all party talks to establish an agreed all party approach, that both takes Parliament v Courts out of it, and treats the victims better.
    That would be a gift. And not to them.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,075
    IanB2 said:

    That would be a gift. And not to them.
    Nope. It’s a principled stand, rather than a self serving political calculation.
  • No.not for me.

    No.

    I don’t like the Tory Party saying it means guilty get off under the proposal - does it mean everyone now thought of as innocent, or now still suspected of might be guilty. Remember this flaw doesn’t have to be, happens only under the Sunak way of doing this. Other flaws in the Sunak scheme: Where the victims were named in paper and jailed individually as crooks, they won’t be exonerated individually in a court room. Where they are asked to sign saying they are innocent and not a crook in order to recurve compensation, should they have to do that for the compensation, does that not still cast aspirations of not currently believing their innocence.

    And all these flaws unnecessary, as only happen in the Sunak way of doing this. As is completely unnecessary to bring the ultra Populist hobby horse of Parliament versus Courts into the mix.

    And we don’t know what years of convictions Sunak is limiting this to. We don’t know who gets compensation and who doesn’t. And we don’t know who gets what compensation, fairly for how they suffered. Sunak’s proposal is still a blank cheque in many regards.

    This explains Starmer’s very lukewarm warm response to Sunak’s proposal in the commons today. Sunak thinks everyone is so desperate now to see help for the victims, people have to support whatever he cobbles together and puts in front of them, because by the government bill route he can accuse them of using the victims as a political football if they object anyway. In other words, this is exactly what Sunak is playing at himself.

    Starmer and Davey should call Sunak out on this. They need to quickly move to make clear they reject Sunak’s scheme, and will vote against it. And ask for all party talks to establish an agreed all party approach, that both takes Parliament v Courts out of it, and treats the victims better.
    Sadly what you want is impractical. If the victims want to have their day in court that could delay exhoneration and payment for years. Unless of course you are just suggesting they turn up in court, stand up and get told by a judge they are innocent based on no actual judicail work at all. That I think the judges would object to very strongly and it would be as meaningful as the signed piee of paper you are deriding.

    This whole situation is a mess and there is no perfect, easy solution to it that would not take years to sort out. Hence the system they have come up with.

    You are guilty of allowing perfection to be the enemy of good.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,419
    Christie not endorsing Haley is good news for Haley.

  • Dixville Vote
    @DixvilleVote
    In the historic Tillotson House at The Balsams, Dixville Notch and its six voters will host New Hampshire’s only midnight vote of the 2024 #FITN Primary on January 23, continuing more than six-decades of tradition.

    🧵1/2

    https://twitter.com/DixvilleVote/status/1743378155363037640

    Previous Dixville resultswww

    2020 NH Presidential primary
    > Democratic = 1 for Bernie Sanders, 1 for Pete Buttigieg and 3 writein votes for Mike Bloomberg
    > Republican = 1 writein vote for Mike Bloomberg (0 each for Donald Trump and William Weld)

    2016 NH Primary
    > Democratic = 4 for Bernie Sanders
    > Republican = 3 for John Kasich, 2 for Donald Trump

    FYI/BTW "Dixville" is the name of the town, or what outside New England is called (in some states) a township; "Dixville Knotch" is a locality in the town, actual a hotel at Dixville Knotch State Park; with "knotch" meaning gap in the White Mountains.
  • I seem to recall there's one sub post master in prison because after money was missing and he was being accused, he murdered his wife. Something like that.

    Presumably he can't be released, as murder trumps fraud, but I do wonder if his fraud case will be amongst those quashed by the blanket primary legislation?

    There's a part of me that also wonders if he was even guilty of fraud before he murdered his wife, or if an ugly miscarriage of justice led to an even uglier end after he snapped in response to it?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    BBC News comments on this here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67940193 There's an alternative suggestion that you set up a rapid appeal process to overturn false convictions in batches.
    David Davis said Hollinrake wanted this to happen but the Post Office kept putting objections and so forth in
  • rcs1000 said:

    Christie not endorsing Haley is good news for Haley.

    rcs1000 said:

    Christie not endorsing Haley is good news for Haley.

    Voting for Chris Christie this year, is functional equivalent of buying home title protection from that other PB favorite, Newt Gingrich.

    Though purchasing an indulgence with assistance of 3rd Mrs Gingrich, the former US Ambassador to the Holy See, could turn out to be excellent value.
  • DavidL said:

    The key for me in the case of the SPMs and those who died or had their lives ruined by contaminated blood is do we have a legal system and a system of Justice that can hold the powerful to account. Does that slightly dodgy blindfold that Justice has over her eyes when weighing the rights and wrongs exist or is it simply a delusion that kids us into believing we have a justice system worthy of the name?

    And that question has not been answered. It is not enough that victims of miscarriages of justice be acquitted or pardoned. It is not enough that they are compensated (as if mere money could right such wrongs).

    It will be answered in the affirmative when the senior management of such organisations go to jail and our assumptions about what people in high positions can get away with are altered.

    And it has not happened yet.

    Apologies if I have missed it over the last few days but has anyone highlighted the appauling behaviour of the individuals who were tasked with auditing and investigating the SPMs? Not the managers but the actual people doing the face to face 'interviews'.

    They lied to the SPMs and I assume also lied to the courts. It would be nice to see some of these faceless, unnamed functionaries brought into the light of day and named and shamed, if not prosected for perverting the course of justice.

    *I say interviews but face to face threats would be more accurate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,569
    Scott_xP said:

    @HuffPost

    JUST IN: Chris Christie Is Dropping Out Of 2024 GOP Presidential Race

    Has Haley given him a private assurance she will not be Trump's running mate I wonder? Made a little easier if so by Trump going after her with a "birther" argument....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    I seem to recall there's one sub post master in prison because after money was missing and he was being accused, he murdered his wife. Something like that.

    Presumably he can't be released, as murder trumps fraud, but I do wonder if his fraud case will be amongst those quashed by the blanket primary legislation?

    There's a part of me that also wonders if he was even guilty of fraud before he murdered his wife, or if an ugly miscarriage of justice led to an even uglier end after he snapped in response to it?

    Overwhelmingly likely to be the latter I think. Yes of course his fraud conviction should be overturned, the main piece of evidence, Horizon is very obviously unsound.
    Of course it doesn't affect his murder conviction.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    ydoethur said:

    There is a certain irony of course that ITV's own boss is one of those who might and probably should face criminal charges over this.
    If you mean Adam Crozier, I read he was actually in charge of Royal Mail which is completely separate from the Post Office
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,569

    Vegan haggis from a van at Kilt Rock, Isle of Skye in 2019!
    Had a very tasty vegan haggis Wellington recently. I was round for dinner and being polite but it wasn't half bad.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,148
    @meridithmcgraw

    Hot mic alert! Christie could just be heard talking backstage on a livestream: "We know we're right but they don't want to hear it..."
    On Haley: "She's going to get smoked, you and I both know this. She's not up to this."
    Says DeSantis called him, "petrified..." then it ends.
  • Apologies if I have missed it over the last few days but has anyone highlighted the appauling behaviour of the individuals who were tasked with auditing and investigating the SPMs? Not the managers but the actual people doing the face to face 'interviews'.

    They lied to the SPMs and I assume also lied to the courts. It would be nice to see some of these faceless, unnamed functionaries brought into the light of day and named and shamed, if not prosected for perverting the course of justice.

    *I say interviews but face to face threats would be more accurate.
    Even worse, with apologies for responding to my own comment, I see from the Telegraph this evening that the investigators were paid a bonus for every successful conviction.

    Rotten to the core

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/10/post-office-executives-paid-bonuses-postmasters-conviction/
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    In May 2009 #KeirStarmer prosecuted Wendy Cousins, sub-postmistress of the Post Office branch in Hertford Heath, Herts. She was sentenced to 21 months’ imprisonment but died in 2022 before the Court of Appeal could formally exonerate her. #StarmerResign

    telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/…


    https://x.com/exraf_al/status/1745191403666198542?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • Has Haley given him a private assurance she will not be Trump's running mate I wonder? Made a little easier if so by Trump going after her with a "birther" argument....
    No.

    He's NOT dropping out as part of deal with Haley - though Trump & RDS will be shouting it to the rooftops.

    Christie deflating the Blimp as cover for tanking in NH, after bombing week before in Iowa.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    ...
    isam said:

    If you mean Adam Crozier, I read he was actually in charge of Royal Mail which is completely separate from the Post Office
    Come off it Mr Inconsistent.

    Starmer was boss of the CPS who prosecuted 3 people and you want him to serve 5 years in Pentonville because the buck stops with him. And Crozier, who was in ultimate charge of the Post Office by dint of being boss of Royal Mail you give a free pass, like he is Boris Johnson or something.
  • Nope. It’s a principled stand, rather than a self serving political calculation.
    "Starmer and Davey cause massive delay to exhoneration of postal fraud-case victims for political advantage"

    Not sure that would be the headlines they would welcome. But it would be the headlines. And the papers would be able to find plenty of SPMs amongst the 900 who would be happy to stand up and say it as well.
  • AverageNinjaAverageNinja Posts: 1,169
    isam said:

    In May 2009 #KeirStarmer prosecuted Wendy Cousins, sub-postmistress of the Post Office branch in Hertford Heath, Herts. She was sentenced to 21 months’ imprisonment but died in 2022 before the Court of Appeal could formally exonerate her. #StarmerResign

    telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/…


    https://x.com/exraf_al/status/1745191403666198542?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Copium.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,133
    isam said:

    If you mean Adam Crozier, I read he was actually in charge of Royal Mail which is completely separate from the Post Office
    Not back then, it wasn’t, although it was increasingly arms length
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited January 2024
    Scott_xP said:

    @meridithmcgraw

    Hot mic alert! Christie could just be heard talking backstage on a livestream: "We know we're right but they don't want to hear it..."
    On Haley: "She's going to get smoked, you and I both know this. She's not up to this."
    Says DeSantis called him, "petrified..." then it ends.

    Busy busy busy self self self promoting promoting promoting

    Addendum - Makes George Santos seem bashful.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    isam said:

    In May 2009 #KeirStarmer prosecuted Wendy Cousins, sub-postmistress of the Post Office branch in Hertford Heath, Herts. She was sentenced to 21 months’ imprisonment but died in 2022 before the Court of Appeal could formally exonerate her. #StarmerResign

    telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/…


    https://x.com/exraf_al/status/1745191403666198542?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Does this Tory shill mean "Starmer" or the "CPS"?
  • carnforth said:

    Too much icing. This is the only scottish biscuit for me:

    https://groceries.aldi.co.uk/en-GB/p-simmers-abernethy-250g/011732007960

    At a staggering £2.36 per kilo, I'm not sure Greggs can compete.
    I have unfortunately had to give up Abernethy biscuits, for the sake of my waistline.
    I used to have two with each of several cups of tea a day, until I read the small print and they were 60 calories each.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    edited January 2024

    ...

    Come off it Mr Inconsistent.

    Starmer was boss of the CPS who prosecuted 3 people and you want him to serve 5 years in Pentonville because the buck stops with him. And Crozier, who was in ultimate charge of the Post Office by dint of being boss of Royal Mail you give a free pass, like he is Boris Johnson or something.
    You’re very weird, but you’re right here. He does bear some responsibility for it, what I read was wrong if wiki is right. Though why I’d give him a free pass is beyond me
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,191
    FF43 said:

    The curious thing about the Post Office scandal to me is the sheer scale of it. If one of two unfortunate individuals had been wrongly convicted they might have thought they could get away with it. But we're talking industrial levels of misappropriation involving hundreds of individuals. How did they think they would cover that up?
    And the question remains, where did the allegedly missing money go? There was speculation in the drama it had ended up in a suspense account and from there to profits. I have read suggestions that the PO’s accounts showed material amounts of “other income “. It is just gobsmacking that this wasn’t put together.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    edited January 2024
    isam said:

    You’re very weird, but you’re right here. He does bear some responsibility for it, what I read was wrong if wiki is right. Though why I’d give him a free pass is beyond me
    You must have a long list of the guilty which is fair enough. But where do you place disgraced former Prime Minister Boris Johnson who allowed his Chancellor to significantly delay payments to the sub-Postmasters? Oh and who as Prime Minister allowed Fujitsu billions of pounds of Government IT contracts post scandal?
  • Previous Dixville resultswww

    2020 NH Presidential primary
    > Democratic = 1 for Bernie Sanders, 1 for Pete Buttigieg and 3 writein votes for Mike Bloomberg
    > Republican = 1 writein vote for Mike Bloomberg (0 each for Donald Trump and William Weld)

    2016 NH Primary
    > Democratic = 4 for Bernie Sanders
    > Republican = 3 for John Kasich, 2 for Donald Trump

    FYI/BTW "Dixville" is the name of the town, or what outside New England is called (in some states) a township; "Dixville Knotch" is a locality in the town, actual a hotel at Dixville Knotch State Park; with "knotch" meaning gap in the White Mountains.
    If all 6 voters vote, and all for the same candidate, does that break the secrecy of the ballot? xx
  • DavidL said:

    And the question remains, where did the allegedly missing money go? There was speculation in the drama it had ended up in a suspense account and from there to profits. I have read suggestions that the PO’s accounts showed material amounts of “other income “. It is just gobsmacking that this wasn’t put together.
    Last night we were discussing here the possibility that there were system accounting errors in both directions, but ones in the other direction were cancelled remotely.
  • If all 6 voters vote, and all for the same candidate, does that break the secrecy of the ballot? xx
    Yes, but not in this case, as the real motivation behind Midnight Voting is cheap national advertising for Dixville Knotch and its hotel. Also tradition, which of course New Englander have been turning into a profit center since circa1621.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    Did Fujitsu UK or its forerunner ICL fund any UK political parties?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716

    Biden disapproval rating at +15% latest YouGov poll for Economist.

    He's got a hell of a job turning this around in less than twelve months.

    For comparison (different pollster but) Obama was about 12 points underwater in Aug-Oct of 2011 despite getting Osama Bin Laden just a few months earlier, then he snapped back to parity at the end of the year. He finally gets a few points into positive territory around the party conferences.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/116479/barack-obama-presidential-job-approval.aspx
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,924
    edited January 2024

    You must have a long list of the guilty which is fair enough. But where do you place disgraced former Prime Minister Boris Johnson who allowed his Chancellor to significantly delay payments to the sub-Postmasters? Oh and who as Prime Minister allowed Fujitsu billions of pounds of Government IT contracts post scandal?
    I wonder whether Fujitsu winning contracts is down to the UK business being a creation of the government in the first place?

    I know it is a long time since Tony Benn et al but it was basically the company of choice for government systems at that time.

    The civil service has a long memory.
  • No.not for me.

    No.

    I don’t like the Tory Party saying it means guilty get off under the proposal - does it mean everyone now thought of as innocent, or now still suspected of might be guilty. Remember this flaw doesn’t have to be, happens only under the Sunak way of doing this. Other flaws in the Sunak scheme: Where the victims were named in paper and jailed individually as crooks, they won’t be exonerated individually in a court room. Where they are asked to sign saying they are innocent and not a crook in order to receive compensation, should they have to do that for the compensation, does that not still cast aspirations of not currently believing their innocence.

    And all these flaws unnecessary, as only happen in the Sunak way of doing this. As is completely unnecessary to bring the ultra Populist hobby horse of Parliament versus Courts into the mix.

    And we don’t know what years of convictions Sunak is limiting this to. We don’t know who gets compensation and who doesn’t. And we don’t know who gets what compensation, fairly for how they suffered. Sunak’s proposal is still a blank cheque in many regards.

    This explains Starmer’s very lukewarm warm response to Sunak’s proposal in the commons today. Sunak thinks everyone is so desperate now to see help for the victims, people have to support whatever he cobbles together and puts in front of them, because by the government bill route he can accuse them of using the victims as a political football if they object anyway. In other words, this is exactly what Sunak is playing at himself.

    Starmer and Davey should call Sunak out on this. They need to quickly move to make clear they reject Sunak’s scheme, and will vote against it. And ask for all party talks to establish an agreed all party approach, that both takes Parliament v Courts out of it, and treats the victims better.
    In this climate that would be very brave and a gift to Sunak
This discussion has been closed.