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The inevitable result of having an insurrectionist controlling the GOP? – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Can anyone point me to a link explaining how voter registration works in the USA.

    I don't get this concept of needing to identify as "Republican" or "Democrat" or "Independent" in advance, and then taking part in that party's Primary, but you can also vote in the other Primary.

    What is the point?

    I am very uncomfortable with self-ID for voters. There should be a clear and objective set of measures that can be universally applied, to determine affiliation. Voters should not merely be able to declare "I'm a Democrat" or whatever.
    I once encountered someone in a MAGA hat in the Democrat locker room. People like that should have to stick to the Republican facilities until they have had their headwear surgically removed.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    Foxy said:

    The ground shifts, or at least the rural part of it appears to be:

    Rural voters more likely to back Labour than the Tories
    Poll puts Sir Keir Starmer’s party four points ahead in countryside after promises to support farmers and tackle sewage spills


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/01/10/rural-voters-more-likely-back-labour-than-tories-poll/

    In many rural areas it can be difficult to decide who is the best anti-Tory vote.
    True here certainly.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    edited January 10
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Can anyone point me to a link explaining how voter registration works in the USA.

    I don't get this concept of needing to identify as "Republican" or "Democrat" or "Independent" in advance, and then taking part in that party's Primary, but you can also vote in the other Primary.

    What is the point?

    I am very uncomfortable with self-ID for voters. There should be a clear and objective set of measures that can be universally applied, to determine affiliation. Voters should not merely be able to declare "I'm a Democrat" or whatever.
    Yes, the danger of self-ID is that you could end up with Republicans using Democrat toilets, or vice-versa.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    Foxy said:

    The ground shifts, or at least the rural part of it appears to be:

    Rural voters more likely to back Labour than the Tories
    Poll puts Sir Keir Starmer’s party four points ahead in countryside after promises to support farmers and tackle sewage spills


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/01/10/rural-voters-more-likely-back-labour-than-tories-poll/

    In many rural areas it can be difficult to decide who is the best anti-Tory vote.
    True here certainly.
    My Leics constituency too.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    MattW said:

    Can anyone point me to a link explaining how voter registration works in the USA.

    I don't get this concept of needing to identify as "Republican" or "Democrat" or "Independent" in advance, and then taking part in that party's Primary, but you can also vote in the other Primary.

    What is the point?

    "but you can also vote in the other Primary"

    Err, usually you can NOT do that. But depends on specific state law AND what it is you mean.

    For example, in WA State you must pick a party in order for your presidential primary vote to count; but you are free to pick ANOTHER party at the next presidential primary.

    In states with party registration, you are free to change from one to another (or neither) but there are deadlines; for example, a New Hampshire voter who is today a registered Democrat can NOT change registration and vote in 2024 Republican primary; same other way around.

    However, in Iowa, voters CAN change their party registration, up to and including Caucus Night next Monday.

    Also note that in states with closed party primaries (and not just presidential) dominated by one party or the other, pretty common for folks who consider themselves in one food group, to register with the opposite party, in order to vote in that party's primaries - which is where many elections are decided for practical purposes.

    For example, decades ago when he lived in Louisiana, my GOPer father was a registered Democrat for just that reason. Yet he almost always voted Republican in the fall. And when he moved to another, more politially-competitive state (back then anyway) he registered as . . . wait for it . . . a Republican.

    BEWARE OF "ONE SIZE FITS ALL" EXPLANATIONS!
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,076
    stodge said:

    It seems then those convicted as a result of the Post Office scandal are to have their convictions overturned via legislation.

    Yes, that doesn't sit well with me either. It sets a dangerous precedent and a prime example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Of course, we see Sunak playing to the populist crowd - he sees the public wanting "something" to be done to put right the scandal and he's decided using Parliament to overturn legal decisions is the right "something".

    We can all accept and understand there was a miscarriage of justice which needs to be corrected but imagine how this could be misused in the future. Guilty people having their convictions overturned by legislation - imagine where that ends, yes, it could be another miscarriage like and innocent person wrongly convicted of murder but it could be a "friend" of a future Government convicted of a crime who uses his or her influence to get the conviction quashed.

    The Courts have mechanisms to overturn convictions - let's use those and speed the process rather than invoke legislation.

    1) Horizon data was presented in court - falsely and likely with perjury - as a system that could not make mistakes.

    2) This was the primary evidence - no trial, let alone conviction, would have happened without it.

    3) The Horizon software was full of bugs and errors.

    4) Thus, if nothing else, all trials that relied on Horizon data to convict should be considered mistrials and commenced again if other evidence was also beyond reasonable doubt.

    How this happens is academic. Perhaps we should have a case representing all sub postmasters going to the supreme court to invalidate the convictions. But that is seemingly not possible given the snails pace at which things have occured.

    If a system fails we should compensate those failed by it. And then work out how to improve the system going forward such that these extraordinary measures weren't necessary.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Can anyone point me to a link explaining how voter registration works in the USA.

    I don't get this concept of needing to identify as "Republican" or "Democrat" or "Independent" in advance, and then taking part in that party's Primary, but you can also vote in the other Primary.

    What is the point?

    I am very uncomfortable with self-ID for voters. There should be a clear and objective set of measures that can be universally applied, to determine affiliation. Voters should not merely be able to declare "I'm a Democrat" or whatever.
    RINOs
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,244
    edited January 10

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    My dear old mother thought eating in the street was "common" and I still can't bring myself to do it. But I did get to sample Vietnamese street food when they set up a suspiciously clean stall in the breakfast room of our 5-star Hanoi hotel.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Why would one walk down a Cornish pasty? You'd slip and drop the stake bake. Which would be marginally less painful than eating it, but there y'go.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    Last year, I was two miles from the end of a marathon, and running through Croydon. I was really hungry, so I nipped into a Greggs, bought a sausage roll, and ate it as I jogged down the road.

    To be quite clear: this was *not* a good idea...
    Absolutely. Running a marathon is never a good idea.
    Especially as any road through Croydon with a Greggs is almost certainly a bus route.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Nigelb said:

    Chris said:

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
    I've seen some crazy fantasies from right-wing loonies, but making the Confederate States a British Protectorate in order to stymie the USA has to beat them all.
    How is it a 'crazy fantasy'? I'm not proposing that this should happen, it's a historical counterfactual of the type often discussed here. Just you being an unpleasant little turd as usual I suppose.
    Because the Southern states would have had even less regard for an imperial Britain holding power over them than taking their chances with the North.

    Perhaps not 'crazy', but it is fantasy.
    Plus, having passed the Slavery Abolition Act in 1833, Britain, under a Liberal government by 1861, would have struggled to justify to the nation's public why they should support a bunch of slave states.
    Whadaya mean "would have"?

    Seeing as how HMG circa 1861 in fact DID struggle to justify it's pro-Confederate policy to the British Public. In particular the textile workers of Lancashire (most of whom were denied the vote) who did NOT endorse the illiberal Liberal government, despite the "cotton famine" and resultant unemployment.

    Wiki below barely scratches the surface, but still worth checking out.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_and_the_American_Civil_War
    Well indeed.
  • We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    Last year, I was two miles from the end of a marathon, and running through Croydon. I was really hungry, so I nipped into a Greggs, bought a sausage roll, and ate it as I jogged down the road.

    To be quite clear: this was *not* a good idea...
    Absolutely. Running a marathon is never a good idea.
    I think you're supposed to call it running a snickers nowadays.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,556

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    My dear old mother thought eating in the street was "common" and I still can't bring myself to do it. But I did get to sample Vietnamese street food when they set up a suspiciously clean stall in the breakfast room of our 5-star Hanoi hotel.
    Metropole?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,556

    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Can anyone point me to a link explaining how voter registration works in the USA.

    I don't get this concept of needing to identify as "Republican" or "Democrat" or "Independent" in advance, and then taking part in that party's Primary, but you can also vote in the other Primary.

    What is the point?

    I am very uncomfortable with self-ID for voters. There should be a clear and objective set of measures that can be universally applied, to determine affiliation. Voters should not merely be able to declare "I'm a Democrat" or whatever.
    Yes, the danger of self-ID is that you could end up with Republicans using Democrat toilets, or vice-versa.
    Democrats would never use a hole in the ground...
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    Ratters said:

    stodge said:

    It seems then those convicted as a result of the Post Office scandal are to have their convictions overturned via legislation.

    Yes, that doesn't sit well with me either. It sets a dangerous precedent and a prime example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Of course, we see Sunak playing to the populist crowd - he sees the public wanting "something" to be done to put right the scandal and he's decided using Parliament to overturn legal decisions is the right "something".

    We can all accept and understand there was a miscarriage of justice which needs to be corrected but imagine how this could be misused in the future. Guilty people having their convictions overturned by legislation - imagine where that ends, yes, it could be another miscarriage like and innocent person wrongly convicted of murder but it could be a "friend" of a future Government convicted of a crime who uses his or her influence to get the conviction quashed.

    The Courts have mechanisms to overturn convictions - let's use those and speed the process rather than invoke legislation.

    1) Horizon data was presented in court - falsely and likely with perjury - as a system that could not make mistakes.

    2) This was the primary evidence - no trial, let alone conviction, would have happened without it.

    3) The Horizon software was full of bugs and errors.

    4) Thus, if nothing else, all trials that relied on Horizon data to convict should be considered mistrials and commenced again if other evidence was also beyond reasonable doubt.

    How this happens is academic. Perhaps we should have a case representing all sub postmasters going to the supreme court to invalidate the convictions. But that is seemingly not possible given the snails pace at which things have occured.

    If a system fails we should compensate those failed by it. And then work out how to improve the system going forward such that these extraordinary measures weren't necessary.
    I’ve got some questions about your post, Apologies if this has already been asked and answered that I’ve missed.

    The same system still there today. There’s no plan to get rid of it. Are the problems with it over - is it tweaked and trustable now? Or just not used in court evidence?

    So the scandal only refers to convictions between which dates?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited January 10
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Another good poll for Labour from Savanta albeit with old fieldwork (January 5-7).Interesting though to see a sharp fall in the Labour lead across the 2024 polls to date from 24 with YouGov to 16 with Redfield & Wilton though as we know that's right up there with comparing apples with bulldozers.

    Let's see where the midweek polls take us and see if the PO story is getting any real traction in terms of changing votes and minds. It's unclear currently.

    Savanta are usually one of the better Conservative pollsters and Labour will be happy to see their biggest lead since October last year. Savanta is a UK rather than GB pollster so the swing is 15.5% from Conservative to Labour which is still in "solid majority" territory before tactical voting.

    Under normal circumstances any bad news is bad news for the incumbent. Farage's takedown of Starmer may change that.

    isam said:

    Get out of this one Sir Keir Starmer

    YOU claim YOU were responsible for all prosecutions in England and Wales

    YOU claim the buck stops at the top level

    YOU were Director of Public prosecutions when innocent people were wrongfully convicted in the post office scandal



    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745142278409138524?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    It is indeed very bad that Britain's first three miscarriages happened on his watch.

    How do you know the three were innocent? Perhaps they are the guilty ones that Alex Chalk suggests will unfortunately be allowed through the net by his blanket acquittal.
    I do wonder why these cases went to the CPS, rather than being private prosecutions. What was different about them?

    But neither do we want to go to the other extreme, and suggest that because "I was DPP you know" Starmer was tangentially involved in their cases, they're guilty.
    If Starmer and Davey resign, and I am not suggesting they should not, and Sunak gets away scot-free with rehiring Jujitsu on manifold occasions we can safely say the country is no longer a functioning democracy. A post- democracy that is run by Farage and the Tory client media.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    That's a Cornish patsy. But she really needs two for the full benefit.

    Seriously though, is there anything finer than a hot Cornish pasty on cold winter's day?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,567
    IanB2 said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    Last year, I was two miles from the end of a marathon, and running through Croydon. I was really hungry, so I nipped into a Greggs, bought a sausage roll, and ate it as I jogged down the road.

    To be quite clear: this was *not* a good idea...
    Absolutely. Running a marathon is never a good idea.
    Especially as any road through Croydon with a Greggs is almost certainly a bus route.
    It was on North End, so pedestrianised. :)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
    I've seen some crazy fantasies from right-wing loonies, but making the Confederate States a British Protectorate in order to stymie the USA has to beat them all.
    Talking about fantasies, why should I get bollocked on PB the other day for accurately predicting that the New York Tunnels would have just this boring and humdrum explanation?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/09/brooklyn-synagogue-secret-tunnel-dispute-arrests
    Quoting the article:

    "The reason for the tunnel’s creation remains undisclosed."
    Guess: a certain traditional ceremony or ritual has been banned by the elders. The tunnel-builders disagree, and perform it secretly at night. The humdrum part? This ceremony is dead boring.
    Boring comes into it certainly.
    That's quite a breakthrough - do you have a mole on the inside?
    I am not allowed to tell you the hole truth.
    You're not exactly a mine of information.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Another good poll for Labour from Savanta albeit with old fieldwork (January 5-7).Interesting though to see a sharp fall in the Labour lead across the 2024 polls to date from 24 with YouGov to 16 with Redfield & Wilton though as we know that's right up there with comparing apples with bulldozers.

    Let's see where the midweek polls take us and see if the PO story is getting any real traction in terms of changing votes and minds. It's unclear currently.

    Savanta are usually one of the better Conservative pollsters and Labour will be happy to see their biggest lead since October last year. Savanta is a UK rather than GB pollster so the swing is 15.5% from Conservative to Labour which is still in "solid majority" territory before tactical voting.

    Under normal circumstances any bad news is bad news for the incumbent. Farage's takedown of Starmer may change that.

    isam said:

    Get out of this one Sir Keir Starmer

    YOU claim YOU were responsible for all prosecutions in England and Wales

    YOU claim the buck stops at the top level

    YOU were Director of Public prosecutions when innocent people were wrongfully convicted in the post office scandal



    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745142278409138524?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    It is indeed very bad that Britain's first three miscarriages happened on his watch.

    How do you know the three were innocent? Perhaps they are the guilty ones that Alex Chalk suggests will unfortunately be allowed through the net by his blanket acquittal.
    I do wonder why these cases went to the CPS, rather than being private prosecutions. What was different about them?

    But neither do we want to go to the other extreme, and suggest that because "I was DPP you know" Starmer was tangentially involved in their cases, they're guilty.
    If Starmer and Davey resign, and I am not suggesting they should not, and Sunak gets away scot-free with rehiring Jujitsu on manifold occasions we can safely say the country is no longer a functioning democracy. A post- democracy that is run by Farage and the Tory client media.
    I'm sorry - how important is Farage really? You and the Express may hang on his word - no one else does.

    Absolutely no reason why either Starmer or Davey should resign unless every Conservative Minister involved also resigns.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653

    Ratters said:

    stodge said:

    It seems then those convicted as a result of the Post Office scandal are to have their convictions overturned via legislation.

    Yes, that doesn't sit well with me either. It sets a dangerous precedent and a prime example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Of course, we see Sunak playing to the populist crowd - he sees the public wanting "something" to be done to put right the scandal and he's decided using Parliament to overturn legal decisions is the right "something".

    We can all accept and understand there was a miscarriage of justice which needs to be corrected but imagine how this could be misused in the future. Guilty people having their convictions overturned by legislation - imagine where that ends, yes, it could be another miscarriage like and innocent person wrongly convicted of murder but it could be a "friend" of a future Government convicted of a crime who uses his or her influence to get the conviction quashed.

    The Courts have mechanisms to overturn convictions - let's use those and speed the process rather than invoke legislation.

    1) Horizon data was presented in court - falsely and likely with perjury - as a system that could not make mistakes.

    2) This was the primary evidence - no trial, let alone conviction, would have happened without it.

    3) The Horizon software was full of bugs and errors.

    4) Thus, if nothing else, all trials that relied on Horizon data to convict should be considered mistrials and commenced again if other evidence was also beyond reasonable doubt.

    How this happens is academic. Perhaps we should have a case representing all sub postmasters going to the supreme court to invalidate the convictions. But that is seemingly not possible given the snails pace at which things have occured.

    If a system fails we should compensate those failed by it. And then work out how to improve the system going forward such that these extraordinary measures weren't necessary.
    I’ve got some questions about your post, Apologies if this has already been asked and answered that I’ve missed.

    The same system still there today. There’s no plan to get rid of it. Are the problems with it over - is it tweaked and trustable now? Or just not used in court evidence?

    So the scandal only refers to convictions between which dates?
    In contrast to cheese, the nature of systems is that they become less bug-ridden the older they get.
  • Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    JosiasJessop, have you ever considered running in the Boston Marathon?

    Challenging course, from Concord to Bean Town . . . but NOT as challenging as for British runners in April 1775 . . .
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,556

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    That's a Cornish patsy. But she really needs two for the full benefit.

    Seriously though, is there anything finer than a hot Cornish pasty on cold winter's day?
    Yes. A hot chocolate.

    With marshmallows.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,567

    JosiasJessop, have you ever considered running in the Boston Marathon?

    Challenging course, from Concord to Bean Town . . . but NOT as challenging as for British runners in April 1775 . . .

    Frankly, no. I've never done any officially-timed run - I leave those for Mrs J, who is the runner in the family. I just go off and do my own thing (tm).

    I hope to sort-of do one later in the year, as part of a sprint triathlon. If I can get the swimming right...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,815

    Anyone watch the Conservative Party Political Broadcast just now? (missed it myself)

    Rishi being dishy :lol:
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    That's a Cornish patsy. But she really needs two for the full benefit.

    Seriously though, is there anything finer than a hot Cornish pasty on cold winter's day?
    To eat OR to stick in your pocket as hand-warmer?
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,076

    Ratters said:

    stodge said:

    It seems then those convicted as a result of the Post Office scandal are to have their convictions overturned via legislation.

    Yes, that doesn't sit well with me either. It sets a dangerous precedent and a prime example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Of course, we see Sunak playing to the populist crowd - he sees the public wanting "something" to be done to put right the scandal and he's decided using Parliament to overturn legal decisions is the right "something".

    We can all accept and understand there was a miscarriage of justice which needs to be corrected but imagine how this could be misused in the future. Guilty people having their convictions overturned by legislation - imagine where that ends, yes, it could be another miscarriage like and innocent person wrongly convicted of murder but it could be a "friend" of a future Government convicted of a crime who uses his or her influence to get the conviction quashed.

    The Courts have mechanisms to overturn convictions - let's use those and speed the process rather than invoke legislation.

    1) Horizon data was presented in court - falsely and likely with perjury - as a system that could not make mistakes.

    2) This was the primary evidence - no trial, let alone conviction, would have happened without it.

    3) The Horizon software was full of bugs and errors.

    4) Thus, if nothing else, all trials that relied on Horizon data to convict should be considered mistrials and commenced again if other evidence was also beyond reasonable doubt.

    How this happens is academic. Perhaps we should have a case representing all sub postmasters going to the supreme court to invalidate the convictions. But that is seemingly not possible given the snails pace at which things have occured.

    If a system fails we should compensate those failed by it. And then work out how to improve the system going forward such that these extraordinary measures weren't necessary.
    I’ve got some questions about your post, Apologies if this has already been asked and answered that I’ve missed.

    The same system still there today. There’s no plan to get rid of it. Are the problems with it over - is it tweaked and trustable now? Or just not used in court evidence?

    So the scandal only refers to convictions between which dates?
    I'm not sure when the last conviction was, but I'd be highly surprised if any jury accepted Horizon data as gospel in the years since its shortcomings have been public.

    There's a broader question as to what extent any software can be relied upon - particularly if there's not full disclosure of all ledger entries relating to it. And proof of a cash shortfall at the aggregate level (which there wasn't).
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    edited January 10

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    @SeaShantyIrish2
    • pastie - small circular flesh-coloured fabric disks used to obscure the nipple and enable striptease artists to remain within local regulations. See also merkin.
    • pasty - a combination of certain meat and veg folded within a strip of pastry with the open edge closed by a crimp; the crimp provides a way of holding it if your hands are dirty. Claimed as a cultural artifact by the Cornish.
    also
    • pasty - pale wan expression worn by a Caucasian who has seen or eaten something they find disagreeable
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    edited January 10

    IanB2 said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    Last year, I was two miles from the end of a marathon, and running through Croydon. I was really hungry, so I nipped into a Greggs, bought a sausage roll, and ate it as I jogged down the road.

    To be quite clear: this was *not* a good idea...
    Absolutely. Running a marathon is never a good idea.
    Especially as any road through Croydon with a Greggs is almost certainly a bus route.
    It was on North End, so pedestrianised. :)
    North End sounds like Preston not Croydon.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068

    Anyone watch the Conservative Party Political Broadcast just now? (missed it myself)

    Rishi being dishy :lol:
    You will have a Rishi on a little dishy. You will have a bloater when the boat comes in.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494

    isam said:

    Get out of this one Sir Keir Starmer

    YOU claim YOU were responsible for all prosecutions in England and Wales

    YOU claim the buck stops at the top level

    YOU were Director of Public prosecutions when innocent people were wrongfully convicted in the post office scandal



    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745142278409138524?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    It is indeed very bad that Britain's first three miscarriages happened on his watch.

    How do you know the three were innocent? Perhaps they are the guilty ones that Alex Chalk suggests will unfortunately be allowed through the net by his blanket acquittal.
    I do wonder why these cases went to the CPS, rather than being private prosecutions. What was different about them?

    But neither do we want to go to the other extreme, and suggest that because "I was DPP you know" Starmer was tangentially involved in their cases, they're guilty.
    “I do wonder why these cases went to the CPS, rather than being private prosecutions. What was different about them?”

    That is a good question. I’m not an expert, and I’m guessing, but maybe it’s because what everyone now trusts is unsafe convictions where the computer data was used in court, but in some instances it wasn’t the only evidence? There was other evidence. Such as CCTV showing money put into handbags gets taken straight to the police not post office? So if the police arrest you, you fall under Starmer?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Another good poll for Labour from Savanta albeit with old fieldwork (January 5-7).Interesting though to see a sharp fall in the Labour lead across the 2024 polls to date from 24 with YouGov to 16 with Redfield & Wilton though as we know that's right up there with comparing apples with bulldozers.

    Let's see where the midweek polls take us and see if the PO story is getting any real traction in terms of changing votes and minds. It's unclear currently.

    Savanta are usually one of the better Conservative pollsters and Labour will be happy to see their biggest lead since October last year. Savanta is a UK rather than GB pollster so the swing is 15.5% from Conservative to Labour which is still in "solid majority" territory before tactical voting.

    Under normal circumstances any bad news is bad news for the incumbent. Farage's takedown of Starmer may change that.

    isam said:

    Get out of this one Sir Keir Starmer

    YOU claim YOU were responsible for all prosecutions in England and Wales

    YOU claim the buck stops at the top level

    YOU were Director of Public prosecutions when innocent people were wrongfully convicted in the post office scandal



    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745142278409138524?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    It is indeed very bad that Britain's first three miscarriages happened on his watch.

    How do you know the three were innocent? Perhaps they are the guilty ones that Alex Chalk suggests will unfortunately be allowed through the net by his blanket acquittal.
    I do wonder why these cases went to the CPS, rather than being private prosecutions. What was different about them?

    But neither do we want to go to the other extreme, and suggest that because "I was DPP you know" Starmer was tangentially involved in their cases, they're guilty.
    If Starmer and Davey resign, and I am not suggesting they should not, and Sunak gets away scot-free with rehiring Jujitsu on manifold occasions we can safely say the country is no longer a functioning democracy. A post- democracy that is run by Farage and the Tory client media.
    Farage thinks that the Labour will win the next two elections. You don’t. So he can’t be right all the time.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,240

    MattW said:

    Can anyone point me to a link explaining how voter registration works in the USA.

    I don't get this concept of needing to identify as "Republican" or "Democrat" or "Independent" in advance, and then taking part in that party's Primary, but you can also vote in the other Primary.

    What is the point?

    "but you can also vote in the other Primary"

    Err, usually you can NOT do that. But depends on specific state law AND what it is you mean.

    For example, in WA State you must pick a party in order for your presidential primary vote to count; but you are free to pick ANOTHER party at the next presidential primary.

    In states with party registration, you are free to change from one to another (or neither) but there are deadlines; for example, a New Hampshire voter who is today a registered Democrat can NOT change registration and vote in 2024 Republican primary; same other way around.

    However, in Iowa, voters CAN change their party registration, up to and including Caucus Night next Monday.

    Also note that in states with closed party primaries (and not just presidential) dominated by one party or the other, pretty common for folks who consider themselves in one food group, to register with the opposite party, in order to vote in that party's primaries - which is where many elections are decided for practical purposes.

    For example, decades ago when he lived in Louisiana, my GOPer father was a registered Democrat for just that reason. Yet he almost always voted Republican in the fall. And when he moved to another, more politially-competitive state (back then anyway) he registered as . . . wait for it . . . a Republican.

    BEWARE OF "ONE SIZE FITS ALL" EXPLANATIONS!
    It does occur to me that you should register for the other party, either to vote for the candidate most likely to lose, or for the candidate you consider the least objectionable should your side lose
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    The context is somewhat different.

    As far as the earlier case is concerned the crime for which they were convicted was decriminalised and the decriminalisation backdated.

    Defrauding the Post Office remains a crime.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,606
    edited January 10

    JosiasJessop, have you ever considered running in the Boston Marathon?

    Challenging course, from Concord to Bean Town . . . but NOT as challenging as for British runners in April 1775 . . .

    The Boston marathon has fairly tough entry requirements, although I see they've gone woke by adding 'non-binary' qualifying times which are equivalent to the female ones.

    https://www.baa.org/races/boston-marathon/qualify
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    Not quite the same thing. In those cases the criminal records were wiped, in the same way as a juvenile’s record can be, or a spent conviction under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act is. The convictions were not overturned. They were still guilty. What’s being proposed here is to change the verdict. Similar but not the same.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    viewcode said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    @SeaShantyIrish2
    • pastie - small circular flesh-coloured fabric disks used to obscure the nipple and enable striptease artists to remain within local regulations. See also merkin.
    • pasty - a combination of certain meat and veg folded within a strip of pastry with the open edge closed by a crimp; the crimp provides a way of holding it if your hands are dirty. Claimed as a cultural artifact by the Cornish.
    also
    • pasty - pale wan expression worn by a Caucasian who has seen or eaten something they find disagreeable
    One end had jam in it.
  • ...

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    The context is somewhat different.

    As far as the earlier case is concerned the crime for which they were convicted was decriminalised and the decriminalisation backdated.

    Defrauding the Post Office remains a crime.
    The context seems similar enough. They could have required people to appeal through the courts for the other scheme but didn't.

    Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale. Parliament stepping in to right the wrong seems reasonable to me - again if they were convicting over the wish of the courts to acquit that'd be different, but to provide a means to clear a miscarriage of justice seems reasonable and within precedence.

    Actions like this should only ever be a one way ratchet.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801
    Watching the final episode of Bates v The Post Office. Weirdly something keeps keeps getting stuck in my eye.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    DougSeal said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Another good poll for Labour from Savanta albeit with old fieldwork (January 5-7).Interesting though to see a sharp fall in the Labour lead across the 2024 polls to date from 24 with YouGov to 16 with Redfield & Wilton though as we know that's right up there with comparing apples with bulldozers.

    Let's see where the midweek polls take us and see if the PO story is getting any real traction in terms of changing votes and minds. It's unclear currently.

    Savanta are usually one of the better Conservative pollsters and Labour will be happy to see their biggest lead since October last year. Savanta is a UK rather than GB pollster so the swing is 15.5% from Conservative to Labour which is still in "solid majority" territory before tactical voting.

    Under normal circumstances any bad news is bad news for the incumbent. Farage's takedown of Starmer may change that.

    isam said:

    Get out of this one Sir Keir Starmer

    YOU claim YOU were responsible for all prosecutions in England and Wales

    YOU claim the buck stops at the top level

    YOU were Director of Public prosecutions when innocent people were wrongfully convicted in the post office scandal



    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745142278409138524?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    It is indeed very bad that Britain's first three miscarriages happened on his watch.

    How do you know the three were innocent? Perhaps they are the guilty ones that Alex Chalk suggests will unfortunately be allowed through the net by his blanket acquittal.
    I do wonder why these cases went to the CPS, rather than being private prosecutions. What was different about them?

    But neither do we want to go to the other extreme, and suggest that because "I was DPP you know" Starmer was tangentially involved in their cases, they're guilty.
    If Starmer and Davey resign, and I am not suggesting they should not, and Sunak gets away scot-free with rehiring Jujitsu on manifold occasions we can safely say the country is no longer a functioning democracy. A post- democracy that is run by Farage and the Tory client media.
    Farage thinks that the Labour will win the next two elections. You don’t. So he can’t be right all the time.
    Perlease, I am no fan, but Farage may take down Starmer, he took down Alison Rose, and he took down the UK's post 2016 prosperity.

    I wake up at night having nightmares about Sheffield Rallies and the 1992 GE. I'm not making that mistake again.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    They accept cash, too.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    edited January 10
    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    Not quite the same thing. In those cases the criminal records were wiped, in the same way as a juvenile’s record can be, or a spent conviction under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act is. The convictions were not overturned. They were still guilty. What’s being proposed here is to change the verdict. Similar but not the same.
    IANAL but surely if the conviction is wiped, it has been overturned?

    A spent conviction is completely different, it can be disregarded in certain circumstances but it still exists and could still be declared in eg an enhanced DBS check. Similarly surely sealing a juvenile's records is not the same as wiping them.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214
    edited January 10
    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    Not quite the same thing. In those cases the criminal records were wiped, in the same way as a juvenile’s record can be, or a spent conviction under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act is. The convictions were not overturned. They were still guilty. What’s being proposed here is to change the verdict. Similar but not the same.
    The difference between "There's no reason to think that X didn't do this, and it's the fault of Parliament that it was against the law at the time when it shouldn't have been" and "Y didn't do this and it's the fault of the legal system that it concluded that they had"?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    The context is somewhat different.

    As far as the earlier case is concerned the crime for which they were convicted was decriminalised and the decriminalisation backdated.

    Defrauding the Post Office remains a crime.
    The context seems similar enough. They could have required people to appeal through the courts for the other scheme but didn't.

    Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale. Parliament stepping in to right the wrong seems reasonable to me - again if they were convicting over the wish of the courts to acquit that'd be different, but to provide a means to clear a miscarriage of justice seems reasonable and within precedence.

    Actions like this should only ever be a one way ratchet.
    "Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale".

    This makes as much sense as your promotion of the Laffer Curve.

    Alex Chalk suggests a shortcoming of his blanket acquittal is the small percentage who were genuinely guilty also walk free as innocent men and women.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Another good poll for Labour from Savanta albeit with old fieldwork (January 5-7).Interesting though to see a sharp fall in the Labour lead across the 2024 polls to date from 24 with YouGov to 16 with Redfield & Wilton though as we know that's right up there with comparing apples with bulldozers.

    Let's see where the midweek polls take us and see if the PO story is getting any real traction in terms of changing votes and minds. It's unclear currently.

    Savanta are usually one of the better Conservative pollsters and Labour will be happy to see their biggest lead since October last year. Savanta is a UK rather than GB pollster so the swing is 15.5% from Conservative to Labour which is still in "solid majority" territory before tactical voting.

    Under normal circumstances any bad news is bad news for the incumbent. Farage's takedown of Starmer may change that.

    isam said:

    Get out of this one Sir Keir Starmer

    YOU claim YOU were responsible for all prosecutions in England and Wales

    YOU claim the buck stops at the top level

    YOU were Director of Public prosecutions when innocent people were wrongfully convicted in the post office scandal



    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745142278409138524?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    It is indeed very bad that Britain's first three miscarriages happened on his watch.

    How do you know the three were innocent? Perhaps they are the guilty ones that Alex Chalk suggests will unfortunately be allowed through the net by his blanket acquittal.
    I do wonder why these cases went to the CPS, rather than being private prosecutions. What was different about them?

    But neither do we want to go to the other extreme, and suggest that because "I was DPP you know" Starmer was tangentially involved in their cases, they're guilty.
    If Starmer and Davey resign, and I am not suggesting they should not, and Sunak gets away scot-free with rehiring Jujitsu on manifold occasions we can safely say the country is no longer a functioning democracy. A post- democracy that is run by Farage and the Tory client media.
    I'm sorry - how important is Farage really? You and the Express may hang on his word - no one else does.

    Absolutely no reason why either Starmer or Davey should resign unless every Conservative Minister involved also resigns.
    Indeed. @MexicanPete is obsessed with SKS to such an extent that Big John Owls looks like a mildly interested observer of SKS in comparison.

    PB is much the worse for Mexican’s predictable, repetitive bilge night after night.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631
    viewcode said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    @SeaShantyIrish2
    • pastie - small circular flesh-coloured fabric disks used to obscure the nipple and enable striptease artists to remain within local regulations. See also merkin.
    • pasty - a combination of certain meat and veg folded within a strip of pastry with the open edge closed by a crimp; the crimp provides a way of holding it if your hands are dirty. Claimed as a cultural artifact by the Cornish.
    also
    • pasty - pale wan expression worn by a Caucasian who has seen or eaten something they find disagreeable
    Is the strip-tease pastie an American thing?

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    Although one positive is they do still deal in cash.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    Not quite the same thing. In those cases the criminal records were wiped, in the same way as a juvenile’s record can be, or a spent conviction under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act is. The convictions were not overturned. They were still guilty. What’s being proposed here is to change the verdict. Similar but not the same.
    IANAL but surely if the conviction is wiped, it has been overturned?

    A spent conviction is completely different, it can be disregarded in certain circumstances but it still exists and could still be declared in eg an enhanced DBS check.
    The situation isn’t quite the same. For the various homosexual crimes, they weren’t claiming that the conviction was incorrect, just that the laws was unjust. Whereas for the post office cases, they are claiming a miscarriage of justice.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    In my part of London, we have Wenzel's. Much better.
  • ...

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    The context is somewhat different.

    As far as the earlier case is concerned the crime for which they were convicted was decriminalised and the decriminalisation backdated.

    Defrauding the Post Office remains a crime.
    The context seems similar enough. They could have required people to appeal through the courts for the other scheme but didn't.

    Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale. Parliament stepping in to right the wrong seems reasonable to me - again if they were convicting over the wish of the courts to acquit that'd be different, but to provide a means to clear a miscarriage of justice seems reasonable and within precedence.

    Actions like this should only ever be a one way ratchet.
    "Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale".

    This makes as much sense as your promotion of the Laffer Curve.

    Alex Chalk suggests a shortcoming of his blanket acquittal is the small percentage who were genuinely guilty also walk free as innocent men and women.
    Shit happens.

    Its better to acquit someone who is guilty but there's reasonable doubt, than it is to convict the innocent.

    There's reasonable doubt now surely on everyone convicted under Horizon. A blanket acquittal is entirely reasonable.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    RobD said:

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    They accept cash, too.
    So what?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    RobD said:

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    They accept cash, too.
    So what?

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    Although one positive is they do still deal in cash.
    I couldn’t care less whether they deal in cash or otherwise.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,631

    RobD said:

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    They accept cash, too.
    So what?
    Fear not, they do contactless too when purchasing a vegan sausage roll. Very tasty too, but that is the nature of hot salty fat.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,214
    stodge said:

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    In my part of London, we have Wenzel's. Much better.
    Not just your part of London either; they've made it out to "Essex, actually" Romford as well.

    Damn hipster nonsense. (Though they do sell actual loaves of bread, which feels fairly fundamental for a bakers.)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    Not quite the same thing. In those cases the criminal records were wiped, in the same way as a juvenile’s record can be, or a spent conviction under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act is. The convictions were not overturned. They were still guilty. What’s being proposed here is to change the verdict. Similar but not the same.
    IANAL but surely if the conviction is wiped, it has been overturned?

    A spent conviction is completely different, it can be disregarded in certain circumstances but it still exists and could still be declared in eg an enhanced DBS check. Similarly surely sealing a juvenile's records is not the same as wiping them.
    IIAL. It has the same practical effect but it is technically different. The record of the conviction is deleted but the conviction stands. It’s not the same as declaring someone acquitted. For all practical purposes it is the same but it’s not. As the link you post says -

    “ Under the scheme, people who were unjustly criminalised will receive a pardon. Convictions will be deleted from official records and individuals will not be required to disclose them during court proceedings or when applying for jobs.”

    Again - the conviction remains. The record of the conviction is deleted with the same effect as being overturned. As I said earlier today, a pardon is the state saying “you are/were guilty but we forgive you unconditionally”.

    The practical effect is the same save that the moral satisfaction of being able to say that your conviction has been quashed is. It there.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,556
    Cyclefree said:

    Shamelessly self-promoting comment to follow:

    1. I said a law should be passed overturning the subpostmasters convictions on here on 28 December 2023

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4640786#Comment_4640786.

    Today in Parliament the PM talks about hardworking postmasters serving their communities suffering an outrageous miscarriage of justice and promises such a law. He even sends out to Tory party members the following message.





    2. He promises to speed up compensation payments.

    Well, I urged him to do this on 8 May of last year - see here: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/05/08/the-cheque-is-in-the-post/

    And again on 18 July (https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/07/18/a-missed-opportunity/) when I also pointed out that the subpostmasters were small businesses - once the party's natural supporters, which might be a reason, on top of very many others, for doing right by them.

    What took Sunak so long?

    Perhaps he would do better to read this website.

    Better advice; better political instincts; better informed and ahead of others when it comes to the topics that matter and the actions to be taken.

    Buff those nails!
  • Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    They accept cash, too.
    So what?
    Fear not, they do contactless too when purchasing a vegan sausage roll. Very tasty too, but that is the nature of hot salty fat.
    Rest assured they also do real food, like a proper sausage roll.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494

    Anyone watch the Conservative Party Political Broadcast just now? (missed it myself)

    Rishi being dishy :lol:
    Hopefully not. They are using him far too much. He’s so hated and unpopular he’s suppressing the Conservative vote now.

    He’s overdone the good news persona. Whatever he promises now, the instinctive reaction from voters is: believe it when we see it from him.

    If they use different presenters, these adverts would be 100% better.

    And before you think of replying, who’s popular in this rotten borough of a government, I’m talking fresh, different faces and voices to front the re-election campaign - Atkins, Trott, Coutinho, Badenoch, Glenn, Mourdant. Over using Rishi with his unpopularity as it is, not only suppresses effectiveness of the messaging, but it’s pushing Sunak’s own ratings further down.

    Anyone disagree?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,556

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    The context is somewhat different.

    As far as the earlier case is concerned the crime for which they were convicted was decriminalised and the decriminalisation backdated.

    Defrauding the Post Office remains a crime.
    The context seems similar enough. They could have required people to appeal through the courts for the other scheme but didn't.

    Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale. Parliament stepping in to right the wrong seems reasonable to me - again if they were convicting over the wish of the courts to acquit that'd be different, but to provide a means to clear a miscarriage of justice seems reasonable and within precedence.

    Actions like this should only ever be a one way ratchet.
    "Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale".

    This makes as much sense as your promotion of the Laffer Curve.

    Alex Chalk suggests a shortcoming of his blanket acquittal is the small percentage who were genuinely guilty also walk free as innocent men and women.
    One of the compelling arguments against the death penalty is it is better that guilty go free than the innocent do not. I think this same principle applies in this instance.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,567

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    Or alternatively: handy if you're in a hurry and want to get a quick snack to eat; like MaccyD's, it may not be high cuisine, but you know what you'll get. I quite like their egg, ham and mayo rolls. It's better quality than most supermarket sandwiches - and tastier.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    They accept cash, too.
    So what?
    Fear not, they do contactless too when purchasing a vegan sausage roll. Very tasty too, but that is the nature of hot salty fat.
    They could accept old toenails as payment for the all the difference it would make to me.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Cyclefree said:

    Shamelessly self-promoting comment to follow:

    1. I said a law should be passed overturning the subpostmasters convictions on here on 28 December 2023

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4640786#Comment_4640786.

    Today in Parliament the PM talks about hardworking postmasters serving their communities suffering an outrageous miscarriage of justice and promises such a law. He even sends out to Tory party members the following message.





    2. He promises to speed up compensation payments.

    Well, I urged him to do this on 8 May of last year - see here: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/05/08/the-cheque-is-in-the-post/

    And again on 18 July (https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/07/18/a-missed-opportunity/) when I also pointed out that the subpostmasters were small businesses - once the party's natural supporters, which might be a reason, on top of very many others, for doing right by them.

    What took Sunak so long?

    Perhaps he would do better to read this website.

    Better advice; better political instincts; better informed and ahead of others when it comes to the topics that matter and the actions to be taken.

    You are perfectly entitled to some shameless self-promotion. You have driven the importance of an unwinding scandal on this site and over a lengthy timescale.

    I doubted the impact it would have, nonetheless it could yet see the defenestration of two opposition leaders.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    That's a Cornish patsy. But she really needs two for the full benefit.

    Seriously though, is there anything finer than a hot Cornish pasty on cold winter's day?
    A hot bridie.

    FIGHT.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,567

    JosiasJessop, have you ever considered running in the Boston Marathon?

    Challenging course, from Concord to Bean Town . . . but NOT as challenging as for British runners in April 1775 . . .

    The Boston marathon has fairly tough entry requirements, although I see they've gone woke by adding 'non-binary' qualifying times which are equivalent to the female ones.

    https://www.baa.org/races/boston-marathon/qualify
    Yeah, I'd get nowhere near those times. Sadly. even for my age group. 3hr 25 is a fast time for a 50-year old IMV. If you look at (1), I think it puts you into the 'advanced' category...

    (1): https://runninglevel.com/running-times/marathon-times
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    @SeaShantyIrish2
    • pastie - small circular flesh-coloured fabric disks used to obscure the nipple and enable striptease artists to remain within local regulations. See also merkin.
    • pasty - a combination of certain meat and veg folded within a strip of pastry with the open edge closed by a crimp; the crimp provides a way of holding it if your hands are dirty. Claimed as a cultural artifact by the Cornish.
    also
    • pasty - pale wan expression worn by a Caucasian who has seen or eaten something they find disagreeable
    Is the strip-tease pastie an American thing?

    Unknown. I am often struck by the things I know that most people don't, and the things I don't know that they do. For example I once asked a colleague who was using the phrase "dry sex" what it was, a question that was received with incredulity (I genuinely didn't know). I don't know where I got the pastie info from, but the images it invokes in my mind makes me think it was from gumshoe novels set in the 30s/50s, sort of a LA Confidential vibe. It was not from personal knowledge of strippers, a field of knowledge which remains entirely academic to me, thank goodness.

    I saw a little grey squirrel earlier today. I was going to lunch at the roadside caff near my home and a little squirrel popped out of a hedge. He darted back and forth but seemed uncertain, so I crossed the road and he followed me, step-by-step, using me as a shield against the traffic. When we both got to the other side I wished him good-day and he disappeared into the undergrowth

    The world is full of absolutely horrible things, and thanks to this site and my inquisitive mind I know far too much about them. It is nice sometimes to reflect on the little good things in the world, and hopefully the squirrel's adventures are one of them.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Greggs is shit.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    The context is somewhat different.

    As far as the earlier case is concerned the crime for which they were convicted was decriminalised and the decriminalisation backdated.

    Defrauding the Post Office remains a crime.
    The context seems similar enough. They could have required people to appeal through the courts for the other scheme but didn't.

    Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale. Parliament stepping in to right the wrong seems reasonable to me - again if they were convicting over the wish of the courts to acquit that'd be different, but to provide a means to clear a miscarriage of justice seems reasonable and within precedence.

    Actions like this should only ever be a one way ratchet.
    "Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale".

    This makes as much sense as your promotion of the Laffer Curve.

    Alex Chalk suggests a shortcoming of his blanket acquittal is the small percentage who were genuinely guilty also walk free as innocent men and women.
    One of the compelling arguments against the death penalty is it is better that guilty go free than the innocent do not. I think this same principle applies in this instance.
    A serious question if you don't mind. Would you canvass and vote for a pro- capital punishment Conservative Party led by Braverman, Patel or Jenrick?

    Anyway, I have pissed Anabob off, so my work is done!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,549

    RobD said:

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    They accept cash, too.
    So what?

    Greggs is utter shite.

    Beige, cheap, crap non-food for people that don’t like food.

    Although one positive is they do still deal in cash.
    I couldn’t care less whether they deal in cash or otherwise.
    But the rest of us do.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    @SeaShantyIrish2
    • pastie - small circular flesh-coloured fabric disks used to obscure the nipple and enable striptease artists to remain within local regulations. See also merkin.
    • pasty - a combination of certain meat and veg folded within a strip of pastry with the open edge closed by a crimp; the crimp provides a way of holding it if your hands are dirty. Claimed as a cultural artifact by the Cornish.
    also
    • pasty - pale wan expression worn by a Caucasian who has seen or eaten something they find disagreeable
    Is the strip-tease pastie an American thing?

    Certainly as old as the Moulin Rouge - so I'd guess even older. Though the burlesque craze a few years ago on the back of 'Betty Paige Madness' really brought it to the fore here.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494
    Cyclefree said:

    Shamelessly self-promoting comment to follow:

    1. I said a law should be passed overturning the subpostmasters convictions on here on 28 December 2023

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4640786#Comment_4640786.

    Today in Parliament the PM talks about hardworking postmasters serving their communities suffering an outrageous miscarriage of justice and promises such a law. He even sends out to Tory party members the following message.





    2. He promises to speed up compensation payments.

    Well, I urged him to do this on 8 May of last year - see here: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/05/08/the-cheque-is-in-the-post/

    And again on 18 July (https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/07/18/a-missed-opportunity/) when I also pointed out that the subpostmasters were small businesses - once the party's natural supporters, which might be a reason, on top of very many others, for doing right by them.

    What took Sunak so long?

    Perhaps he would do better to read this website.

    Better advice; better political instincts; better informed and ahead of others when it comes to the topics that matter and the actions to be taken.

    What do you make of his plan though? How do you rate the options available, and which one would you go for?

    Let’s be honest, today Sunak, under pressure to act, is making election year promises from a Primeminster and government that will no longer be in power but in opposition at the end of the year when these promises come to the crunch.

    Sunak’s chosen option for justice for Wronged Postmasters has to be analysed and compared to other options, not just gone along with, as though today is the end of it. Where they were named in paper and jailed individually as crooks, they won’t be exonerated individually, could that bit be improved on? Where they are asked to sign saying they are innocent and not a crook, does that not still cast aspirations of not believing your innocence, could that bit not be improved on?

    Before the website with Better advice; better political instincts; better informed and ahead of others when it comes to the topics that matter and the betterer actions to be taken, gets too carried away with itself. when the politicians, Davey, Starmer Truss and Sunak all chose the overly expensive, regressive winter payments scheme over NIESR sliding Price Cap, when I lost faith politicians can get these big calls right for the country, it wasn’t just too much of their own parties and the media, but also too much of the PB herd went along with that mistake, so we got regressive and overly expensive winter payments scheme, and didn’t question that one enough.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,815
    Foxy said:


    LAB: 45% (+2)
    CON: 26% (-1)
    LDM: 10% (=)
    REF: 8% (-1)
    GRN: 5% (+2)

    via @Savanta_UK, 5-7 Jan

    (Changes with 17 Dec)

    Broken, sleazy Tories and Reform on the slide!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,567
    edited January 10

    Greggs is shit.

    That's a shame, as when I was in a store earlier, it said to me: "I really love that Anabobazina off PoliticalBetting. com. I yearn for him. I want him to lick my delicious sausage roll and imbibe my scorching hot coffee, before we get undressed on top of the sizzling pizza slices so he can play with my doughy nuts..."

    Greggs wants you. Why do you spurn it so?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,770
    @kinabalu I think I saw you rhapsodising on the subject of fudge donuts earlier. If you're ever in St Andrews I recommend you get one from Fisher and Donaldson. I guarantee that it will be one of the most delicious things you ever eat.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Greggs is shit.

    That's a shame, as when I was in a store earlier, it said to me: "I really love that Anabobazina off PoliticalBetting. com. I yearn for him. I want him to lick my delicious sausage roll and imbibe my scorching hot coffee, before we get undressed on top of the sizzling pizza slices so he can play with my doughy nuts..."

    Greggs wants you. Why do you spurn it so?
    You forgot the empire biscuits, only available in Scotland, for obvious political reasons.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,988
    ohnotnow said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    @SeaShantyIrish2
    • pastie - small circular flesh-coloured fabric disks used to obscure the nipple and enable striptease artists to remain within local regulations. See also merkin.
    • pasty - a combination of certain meat and veg folded within a strip of pastry with the open edge closed by a crimp; the crimp provides a way of holding it if your hands are dirty. Claimed as a cultural artifact by the Cornish.
    also
    • pasty - pale wan expression worn by a Caucasian who has seen or eaten something they find disagreeable
    Is the strip-tease pastie an American thing?

    Certainly as old as the Moulin Rouge - so I'd guess even older. Though the burlesque craze a few years ago on the back of 'Betty Paige Madness' really brought it to the fore here.
    I don't recall ever seeing one in an American strip club, but at a birthday party a burlesque performer was invited to give a 'dance' class as entertainment, and handed them out to the guests
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,556

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    The context is somewhat different.

    As far as the earlier case is concerned the crime for which they were convicted was decriminalised and the decriminalisation backdated.

    Defrauding the Post Office remains a crime.
    The context seems similar enough. They could have required people to appeal through the courts for the other scheme but didn't.

    Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale. Parliament stepping in to right the wrong seems reasonable to me - again if they were convicting over the wish of the courts to acquit that'd be different, but to provide a means to clear a miscarriage of justice seems reasonable and within precedence.

    Actions like this should only ever be a one way ratchet.
    "Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale".

    This makes as much sense as your promotion of the Laffer Curve.

    Alex Chalk suggests a shortcoming of his blanket acquittal is the small percentage who were genuinely guilty also walk free as innocent men and women.
    One of the compelling arguments against the death penalty is it is better that guilty go free than the innocent do not. I think this same principle applies in this instance.
    A serious question if you don't mind. Would you canvass and vote for a pro- capital punishment Conservative Party led by ?

    Anyway, I have pissed Anabob off, so my work is done!
    No, I wouldn't. But I'd expect Braverman, Patel or Jenrick to get hammered anyway, so I'd support my current MP - the man not the Party - as he would not support such a policy. They will need MPs like him to have a basis of recovery.

    That Anabob - what a snowflake, eh? :)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174

    In other news, I fear it's only a matter of time before the Houthis get lucky.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67932725

    Very worrying. Michael Clarke good on this as always:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW_pq4udeYQ
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,412
    Cyclefree said:

    Shamelessly self-promoting comment to follow:

    1. I said a law should be passed overturning the subpostmasters convictions on here on 28 December 2023

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4640786#Comment_4640786.

    Today in Parliament the PM talks about hardworking postmasters serving their communities suffering an outrageous miscarriage of justice and promises such a law. He even sends out to Tory party members the following message.





    2. He promises to speed up compensation payments.

    Well, I urged him to do this on 8 May of last year - see here: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/05/08/the-cheque-is-in-the-post/

    And again on 18 July (https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/07/18/a-missed-opportunity/) when I also pointed out that the subpostmasters were small businesses - once the party's natural supporters, which might be a reason, on top of very many others, for doing right by them.

    What took Sunak so long?

    Perhaps he would do better to read this website.

    Better advice; better political instincts; better informed and ahead of others when it comes to the topics that matter and the actions to be taken.

    You deserve a lot of praise for campaigning on this issue via PB and other outlets. However, the only reason that Sunak is acting on this now is because of the public response to the ITV drama.

    The lesson here is that to get anything changed you must engender a public outcry - the bigger the outcry, the bigger the change. Not easy to do if you're not an ITV drama commissioner.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,801

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    The context is somewhat different.

    As far as the earlier case is concerned the crime for which they were convicted was decriminalised and the decriminalisation backdated.

    Defrauding the Post Office remains a crime.
    The context seems similar enough. They could have required people to appeal through the courts for the other scheme but didn't.

    Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale. Parliament stepping in to right the wrong seems reasonable to me - again if they were convicting over the wish of the courts to acquit that'd be different, but to provide a means to clear a miscarriage of justice seems reasonable and within precedence.

    Actions like this should only ever be a one way ratchet.
    "Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale".

    This makes as much sense as your promotion of the Laffer Curve.

    Alex Chalk suggests a shortcoming of his blanket acquittal is the small percentage who were genuinely guilty also walk free as innocent men and women.
    He’s right of course. I said the same this morning. But sometimes the needs of the innocent outweigh the obligations of the guilty. This is such a time.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,606

    JosiasJessop, have you ever considered running in the Boston Marathon?

    Challenging course, from Concord to Bean Town . . . but NOT as challenging as for British runners in April 1775 . . .

    The Boston marathon has fairly tough entry requirements, although I see they've gone woke by adding 'non-binary' qualifying times which are equivalent to the female ones.

    https://www.baa.org/races/boston-marathon/qualify
    Yeah, I'd get nowhere near those times. Sadly. even for my age group. 3hr 25 is a fast time for a 50-year old IMV. If you look at (1), I think it puts you into the 'advanced' category...

    (1): https://runninglevel.com/running-times/marathon-times
    Yes, for many 'fun' runners, qualifying for Boston is like qualifying for the Olympics.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,494

    ...

    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Is literally everyone now happy with the government overriding the courts to overturn all the PO convictions btw? It's the sort of "principle" point where I'd expect somebody to rebel. Probably David Davis.

    No, I think it sets a very poor precedent.
    It's the work of a government which couldn't be arsed until a week ago, and doesn't now want to do the hard work of sorting it out through the courts rather than parliamentary fiat.

    Some of the PO victims aren't very happy about it, either.
    How's it a poor precedent when its been done before?

    Eg for the past decade Parliament has overridden the courts to enable the overturning of prior convictions for buggery or alternative then-illegal homosexuality convictions. In the past year, that scheme has been widened.

    Parliament overriding the courts to convict would be problematic, but where there has been gross miscarriages of justice, Parliament overriding to acquit seems entirely acceptable.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-historic-convictions-for-homosexuality-to-be-wiped
    The context is somewhat different.

    As far as the earlier case is concerned the crime for which they were convicted was decriminalised and the decriminalisation backdated.

    Defrauding the Post Office remains a crime.
    The context seems similar enough. They could have required people to appeal through the courts for the other scheme but didn't.

    Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale. Parliament stepping in to right the wrong seems reasonable to me - again if they were convicting over the wish of the courts to acquit that'd be different, but to provide a means to clear a miscarriage of justice seems reasonable and within precedence.

    Actions like this should only ever be a one way ratchet.
    "Defrauding the Post Office is a crime, but that didn't happen and it didn't happen on an industrial scale".

    This makes as much sense as your promotion of the Laffer Curve.

    Alex Chalk suggests a shortcoming of his blanket acquittal is the small percentage who were genuinely guilty also walk free as innocent men and women.
    One of the compelling arguments against the death penalty is it is better that guilty go free than the innocent do not. I think this same principle applies in this instance.
    A serious question if you don't mind. Would you canvass and vote for a pro- capital punishment Conservative Party led by Braverman, Patel or Jenrick?

    Anyway, I have pissed Anabob off, so my work is done!
    Go back to your supalyx, you’re losing it.

    How does your heavily pushed “Rishi knocking Starmer out the park all last week” narrative sit with all last weeks polling where the Tories have dropped in everysingleone!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,873

    Anyone watch the Conservative Party Political Broadcast just now? (missed it myself)

    Rishi being dishy :lol:
    Hopefully not. They are using him far too much. He’s so hated and unpopular he’s suppressing the Conservative vote now.

    He’s overdone the good news persona. Whatever he promises now, the instinctive reaction from voters is: believe it when we see it from him.

    If they use different presenters, these adverts would be 100% better.

    And before you think of replying, who’s popular in this rotten borough of a government, I’m talking fresh, different faces and voices to front the re-election campaign - Atkins, Trott, Coutinho, Badenoch, Glenn, Mourdant. Over using Rishi with his unpopularity as it is, not only suppresses effectiveness of the messaging, but it’s pushing Sunak’s own ratings further down.

    Anyone disagree?
    Rishi is ill-served by his spin doctors. They throw away his solid, technocrat credentials by Boris-like rants at PMQs. Today should be a triumph for the Prime Minister who at a stroke will free the Post Office 7 or 700 or 7,000, however many it is. Instead CCHQ has wrecked it by sending its allies over the top in pursuit of Keir Starmer. Instead of Good Old Rishi, it's what did Starmer do?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    JosiasJessop, have you ever considered running in the Boston Marathon?

    Challenging course, from Concord to Bean Town . . . but NOT as challenging as for British runners in April 1775 . . .

    Frankly, no. I've never done any officially-timed run - I leave those for Mrs J, who is the runner in the family. I just go off and do my own thing (tm).

    I hope to sort-of do one later in the year, as part of a sprint triathlon. If I can get the swimming right...
    Well, am sure you'd be more than welcome on a Patriot Day ramble though - even sporting a Union Jack. And likely to make the cut, based on what you've posted here.

    Not just a major runners race, but beloved civic institution in Middlesex AND Suffolk (counties in Mass).

    IF you ever decided to try, read up first on that very first less-than-fun run. Great reasonably-recent book (can't recall author) gives virtually mile-by-mile description of the gauntlet the Redcoats had to endure on return march to Boston, with more militia arriving by the minute as news spread.

    Including even Lexington militia - same men that British troops routed on the town green on the way to Concord - after somebody fired "the shot heard round the world". Who managed to shake off their shock, get their shit back together . . . and were there along the road to meet & greet when the British column returned to their town . . .

    Which says volumes about their discipline and leadership, and that of the entire Massachusetts militia. Obviously NOT quite up to British Army standard; but also hardly the rabble often believe, on both sides of Atlantic (and Pacific).

    Two stories that have stuck with me, about two different guys there that day, both local Mass farmers

    > one a very old man, clearly cantankerous old coot, who lived along the road; when told the redcoats would soon be at his door, said (I paraphrase) damn them! an Englishman's home is his castle! Then grabbed his old gun, stood his ground, refused to cease & desist when so ordered. And died at his door.

    > another farmer, younger and wiser, a veteran who'd served with British versus the French with fellow New Englanders the previous decade. He road a horse, and (it quickly transpired) was very skilled marksmen. So skilled that he rode along the edges of the column, at safe distance - for him - stopping occasionally to shot another hapless redcoat - preferably an officer.

    On perhaps more positive note, pleased to inform, that YOUR odds of encountering hostile gunfire along the route are today somewhat reduced, though sadly hardly zero.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    ohnotnow said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    That's a Cornish patsy. But she really needs two for the full benefit.

    Seriously though, is there anything finer than a hot Cornish pasty on cold winter's day?
    A hot bridie.

    FIGHT.
    Well-fired macaroni Scots pie, or vegan haggis ditto. Or both if hungry.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    viewcode said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    @SeaShantyIrish2
    • pastie - small circular flesh-coloured fabric disks used to obscure the nipple and enable striptease artists to remain within local regulations. See also merkin.
    • pasty - a combination of certain meat and veg folded within a strip of pastry with the open edge closed by a crimp; the crimp provides a way of holding it if your hands are dirty. Claimed as a cultural artifact by the Cornish.
    also
    • pasty - pale wan expression worn by a Caucasian who has seen or eaten something they find disagreeable
    Am wondering, has a Cornish stripper ever worn pasty pasties as part of the act?

    Surely TSE can give definitive answer!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,988
    Carnyx said:

    Well-fired macaroni Scots pie

    The one occasion when it really is Scotch
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    Well-fired macaroni Scots pie

    The one occasion when it really is Scotch
    Just plain pie around here, in the deli and the chippie, actually. I was explaining to our southern colleagues.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    Carnyx said:

    ohnotnow said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    That's a Cornish patsy. But she really needs two for the full benefit.

    Seriously though, is there anything finer than a hot Cornish pasty on cold winter's day?
    A hot bridie.

    FIGHT.
    Well-fired macaroni Scots pie, or vegan haggis ditto. Or both if hungry.
    I took a couple of friends from Sheffield over to Arran for a trip and introduced them to Macaroni Pies. It was, I think, a life changing experience.

    A somewhat shortened life, admittedly. But still.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,606
    ohnotnow said:

    Carnyx said:

    ohnotnow said:

    We are forever seeing TV chefs swanning off to some distant shore and eulogising about the 'Street Food' that they purchase from some squalid shack that nobody in their right mind would go anywhere near.

    If you want street food, buy a Greggs steak bake and eat it as you walk down the pavement.

    A Cornish pasty surely?
    Isn't that what strip-tease artiste's in St Ives's burlesque houses used to wear - strategically?
    That's a Cornish patsy. But she really needs two for the full benefit.

    Seriously though, is there anything finer than a hot Cornish pasty on cold winter's day?
    A hot bridie.

    FIGHT.
    Well-fired macaroni Scots pie, or vegan haggis ditto. Or both if hungry.
    I took a couple of friends from Sheffield over to Arran for a trip and introduced them to Macaroni Pies. It was, I think, a life changing experience.

    A somewhat shortened life, admittedly. But still.
    I suppose you could adapt the concept and put any pasta recipe in a pie.

    https://scottishscran.com/scottish-macaroni-pie-recipe/

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398

    Cyclefree said:

    Shamelessly self-promoting comment to follow:

    1. I said a law should be passed overturning the subpostmasters convictions on here on 28 December 2023

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4640786#Comment_4640786.

    Today in Parliament the PM talks about hardworking postmasters serving their communities suffering an outrageous miscarriage of justice and promises such a law. He even sends out to Tory party members the following message.





    2. He promises to speed up compensation payments.

    Well, I urged him to do this on 8 May of last year - see here: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/05/08/the-cheque-is-in-the-post/

    And again on 18 July (https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/07/18/a-missed-opportunity/) when I also pointed out that the subpostmasters were small businesses - once the party's natural supporters, which might be a reason, on top of very many others, for doing right by them.

    What took Sunak so long?

    Perhaps he would do better to read this website.

    Better advice; better political instincts; better informed and ahead of others when it comes to the topics that matter and the actions to be taken.

    What do you make of his plan though? How do you rate the options available, and which one would you go for?

    Let’s be honest, today Sunak, under pressure to act, is making election year promises from a Primeminster and government that will no longer be in power but in opposition at the end of the year when these promises come to the crunch.

    Sunak’s chosen option for justice for Wronged Postmasters has to be analysed and compared to other options, not just gone along with, as though today is the end of it. Where they were named in paper and jailed individually as crooks, they won’t be exonerated individually, could that bit be improved on? Where they are asked to sign saying they are innocent and not a crook, does that not still cast aspirations of not believing your innocence, could that bit not be improved on?

    Before the website with Better advice; better political instincts; better informed and ahead of others when it comes to the topics that matter and the betterer actions to be taken, gets too carried away with itself. when the politicians, Davey, Starmer Truss and Sunak all chose the overly expensive, regressive winter payments scheme over NIESR sliding Price Cap, when I lost faith politicians can get these big calls right for the country, it wasn’t just too much of their own parties and the media, but also too much of the PB herd went along with that mistake, so we got regressive and overly expensive winter payments scheme, and didn’t question that one enough.
    The legislation to exonerate postmasters and promises to 'speed up payments' were all quite predictable political consequences should the post office crisis blow up, as it now has. I think that the main issue for the victims is that something actually now happens and it doesn't go back in to the long grass whilst everyone moves on to try to solve the next 'injustice'. At least with some legislation then they do get the convictions removed.

    It is worth looking back at the Andrew Malkinson case last year, the guy who was jailed for 18 years but the conviction was then overturned. The government 'acted' then, setting up a public Inquiry etc. But as of last October he was living in a tent still waiting for his promised compensation.

  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,779
    Apologies if this has already been posted.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-67932247

    HS2 to Birmingham may cost £65bn, railway boss says

    The London to Birmingham stretch of the HS2 railway could cost more than £65bn in current prices, the boss of the company building it has said.

    Sir Jonathan Thompson said a rise in the cost of materials such as concrete and steel over the past few years have added £8bn to £10bn.

    In October the government cancelled the sections between the West Midlands, Manchester, and the East Midlands.

    Now HS2 Ltd and the government disagree on the cost of building the rest.
This discussion has been closed.