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The inevitable result of having an insurrectionist controlling the GOP? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 14 in General
The inevitable result of having an insurrectionist controlling the GOP? – politicalbetting.com

"Do you think it's likely there will be a civil war in America in the next ten years?"All:No: 42%Yes: 41%Those who say yes among:Republicans: 49%Independents: 39%Democrats: 34%Trump Voters: 51%Biden Voters: 32%YouGov / Jan 2, 2024 / n=3087

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,961
    edited January 10
    First like Le Royaume-Uni.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,285

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
  • First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,147
    Legitimately second
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,221
    FPT:
    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I’m surprised Starmer didn’t go on the Post Office scandal.

    Are you also still surprised that, despite the facts having been in plain sight for more than a decade, everyone’s only worrying about it now?
    Oh it's ridiculous and PB among others has done excellent work covering it. But politics is very reactive and I was surprised that Starmer didn't ask any questions on it. Yes, I know there was the statement this afternoon, but he could have still asked pertinent questions about the big subject.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,147
    edited January 10
    FPT

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:


    tlg86 said:

    I’m surprised Starmer didn’t go on the Post Office scandal.

    His silence has been absolutely thunderous.

    Given New Labour commissioned and pushed out Horizon they're up to their necks in it. He's decided silence is the best strategy and is probably all too happy for Ed Davey to take the hit.
    Can you people take responsibility for anything? It was the brainchild of Peter Lilley when he was a minister in Major's Government. Not absolving the 1997-2010 administration but, really, do some basic fact checking before spouting off will you?
    Nothing wrong with my facts.

    The Herd just can't stand it. They want to pretend it had nothing to do with them.

    Nothing at all.
    "The Herd"; "the Blob"...

    Examples of Tory paranoia.
    Nah, reflects our sheep-like regulars who are desperate to scrub any responsibility of Labour from the record.

    There's plenty on here. We all know their names.
    There is a time-value element to this which is quite important. The evidence for a huge miscarriage of justice has grown over time, as have the efforts to conceal it.

    Blaming the Tories for commissioning it in the 90s is silly. Blaming the Tories for awarding Vennels a CBE in 2019 , along with Cabinet Office and NHS jobs... seems fair to me.
    The basic idea of a computerised post office counter system reporting to HQ, doing the books etc was sensible. In fact, the standard way of doing things in most of retail.

    The problem was

    1) The implementation was crap
    2) The crapness resulted in the prosecutions.
    3) Managers with write-only minds failed to notice anything
    4) When they did notice, they lied and covered up. Then lied and covered up. And carried on with the prosecutions.
    5) As this went up the chain, so did the lying about it. Until everyone who knew was lying like Professors of Lying at Lying University in Lyingshire.
    6) Meanwhile they were doing "Fuck you, pay me"* to all the SPMs

    1) was required to create the disaster. But 2-6) were required to make the slow motion disaster destroy so many lives.

    1) on it's own might have resulted in a handful of mistaken prosecutions, before the fuck up was corrected.

    *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c3bhh8fqYs
    That's a good (but sad...) list. I'd just like to add two points:

    *) Essentially, the cover-up caused this mess. When the PO realised something was wrong - which they must have done fairly early on - instead of admitting it and sorting it out, they lied and continued as before.

    Strictly, when the PO realised something was wrong, they were willing to fund an independent investigation and fund an independent mediation scheme. Arbuthnot has said that his initial interactions with Vennells et al were constructive.

    When they realised that what was wrong was a huge iceberg that would sink the entire ship, then somehow - yet to be established - they decided to obstruct and cover up. Which is shameful, and the main task of the inquiry to uncover.

    Paradoxically, their original willingness to open their books is evidence that, at the top of the organisation at least, they didn’t have a full understanding of the abject shambles they were sitting on, long after it was apparent to people further down whose working lives were deep within it.
    Yes, it shouldn't be forgotten that Vennells set up the independent inquiry by Second Sight voluntarily and at the PO's expense. As you indicate, it was only later when it started to report adverse findings that she backtracked.

    And lest we be tempted to slag off all politicians, James Arbuthnot (my former MP) stands out like a beacon of light and reason.
    Arbuthnot is on record as saying that, when he was first contacted by his constituent Jo Hamilton’s experience (now dramatised for us all), he raised it with someone he knew senior in the Federation, and was told that the system was working well and that Hamilton must be doing something wrong. So he let it rest.

    Which he accepted, until some time later he got complaints from constituents that their village SPSO was closed. When he asked about it, he found out that PO auditors had suspended the postmaster because of unexplained shortfalls, and when he investigated further he discovered that this subpostmaster was new and had taken over the SPSO from another subpostmaster who had been forced out after shortfalls. That was when he connected the dots and wondered whether there might be a bigger picture.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,598
    I wish they’d just get on with it, TBH
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,186
    So vote Trump if you want a civil war. And they will.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,898
    Posted on the dead thread...
    I don't think many politicians or any party comes out of this PO scandal well. Nor does most of the press, with some exceptions. But for most of the extended period of time this scandal played out - pretty much my entire adult life - the public hasn't cared either. So perhaps you can understand why elected politicians didn't feel the need to involve themselves too deeply.
    I wonder whether the issue of complexity is the problem here. Although on one level the issue is simple - people lied to cover up problems with a product and tried to shift the blame for the problems onto innocent people - the details are quite complex, hard for the public or politicians to cut through especially when the experts can't be trusted. You see similar problems around other complex technical issues - epidemiology, trade with Europe - where politicians either deny responsibility or weaponise the complexity to deliberately misrepresent things.
    I wonder whether the real failure here lies with the House of Lords. Isn't the whole point of the unelected House that it is composed of people with expertise who can dig into complex issues, including ones that the public don't currently care about? Isn't this precisely the kind of issue that an effective HoL would have got stuck into a decade ago? Perhaps I've missed it but I don't think I've seen that kind of activity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,598
    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    williamglenn said:
    Timeline:

    January 15: Iowa - Democratic and Republican caucuses
    January 23: New Hampshire - Democratic and Republican primaries
    February 3: South Carolina - Democratic primary
    February 6: Nevada - Democratic and Republican primaries
    February 8: Nevada - party-organized caucuses
    February 24: South Carolina - Republican primary
    February 27: Michigan - Democratic and Republican primaries
    March 2: Idaho, Michigan, and Missouri - Republican caucuses
    March 3: District of Columbia - Republican primary
    March 4:North Dakota - Republican caucuses
    March 5: Super Tuesday

    SSI - Some slight (but still significant) additions & corrections to above:

    January 15 > Iowa - Democratic caucuses, as per wiki:
    In this cycle, in-person caucuses focusing only on party business will be held on January 15, but voting on candidates would be done exclusively via mail-in ballots from January 12 until Super Tuesday, March 5, 2024. This was the result of a compromise between the Iowa Democratic Party and the Democratic National Committee (DNC).\

    February 6 > Nevada Republican primary - NOTE that state GOP party rules bar any candidate appearing on this primary ballot, from receiving ANY pledged delegates, awarded sole on basis of Feb 8 Republican caucuses.

    February 8> Nevada - NOTE no Democratic caucuses; PLUS Virgin Islands = Republican caucus

    March 5 Super Tuesday > primaries in Alabama, Alaska (R only), California, Colorado, Iowa (D only), Maine, Mass, Minnesota, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, Utah (D only), Vermont, Virginia
    PLUS caucuses in American Samoa and Utah (R only)

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-primary-elections/calendar
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124

    Posted on the dead thread...
    I don't think many politicians or any party comes out of this PO scandal well. Nor does most of the press, with some exceptions. But for most of the extended period of time this scandal played out - pretty much my entire adult life - the public hasn't cared either. So perhaps you can understand why elected politicians didn't feel the need to involve themselves too deeply.
    I wonder whether the issue of complexity is the problem here. Although on one level the issue is simple - people lied to cover up problems with a product and tried to shift the blame for the problems onto innocent people - the details are quite complex, hard for the public or politicians to cut through especially when the experts can't be trusted. You see similar problems around other complex technical issues - epidemiology, trade with Europe - where politicians either deny responsibility or weaponise the complexity to deliberately misrepresent things.
    I wonder whether the real failure here lies with the House of Lords. Isn't the whole point of the unelected House that it is composed of people with expertise who can dig into complex issues, including ones that the public don't currently care about? Isn't this precisely the kind of issue that an effective HoL would have got stuck into a decade ago? Perhaps I've missed it but I don't think I've seen that kind of activity.

    There was a debate on the adoption of the famous Lee-Enfield rifle, in the House of Lords, around the turn of the 20th Cent.

    It is marvellous to read - former soldiers arguing from the point of view of practicality. Those wanting more accuracy vs reliability. Each listening to each other's arguments, presenting evidence, discussing alternatives. Lots of evident thinking.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198
    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    You are in our thoughts. Why don’t you set up a Go Fund Me to pay for a well earned holiday after you have gone through all of that, just so we don’t have to?
  • First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    Revoke the Treaty of Paris 1783.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590
    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    Grr I really don’t want more English people going to Guadeloupe.

    But if you are the Death in Paradise museum is a hoot, it really is just the police station set open when they aren’t filming.
  • FPT - Re PO Scandal

    Subscribers to Nick Wallis's email letters will have just received a mail with the following extraordinary extract:

    "Now read this - a comment sent for publication to a blog post I wrote from a purported for Fujitsu engineer using a dummy email address:

    "While I put through no phantom entries myself, I was aware how commonplace it was, and the trivially easy overriding of the rudimentary audit trail embedded in the software too.

    "What started as a prank swiftly became a crime, I prefer to believe most of the perpetrators never seriously consider that POL would treat the discrepancies so seriously and initiate prosecutions. It got totally out of hand. 90% of the phantoms were 'against' the agents, thus unjustly enriching POL.

    "Did you notice the disproportionate number of victims whose agent locations were in Wales?"


    Usual caveats apply. Could be fake, but if there is any substance to it this scandal has a bit to run yet.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    Revoke the Treaty of Paris 1783.
    Enforce the Treaty of Troyes, first
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,598
    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    You are in our thoughts. Why don’t you set up a Go Fund Me to pay for a well earned holiday after you have gone through all of that, just so we don’t have to?
    Thanks, it’s dark and lonely work, but someone has to do it. It’s actually quite nice to get some sympathy

    This glut of gigs is making it hard for me to do my one main summer ambition: a trip through the Stans. Uzbek, Kazakh, and onwards. I shall squeeze it in somehow


  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,147

    FPT - Re PO Scandal

    Subscribers to Nick Wallis's email letters will have just received a mail with the following extraordinary extract:

    "Now read this - a comment sent for publication to a blog post I wrote from a purported for Fujitsu engineer using a dummy email address:

    "While I put through no phantom entries myself, I was aware how commonplace it was, and the trivially easy overriding of the rudimentary audit trail embedded in the software too.

    "What started as a prank swiftly became a crime, I prefer to believe most of the perpetrators never seriously consider that POL would treat the discrepancies so seriously and initiate prosecutions. It got totally out of hand. 90% of the phantoms were 'against' the agents, thus unjustly enriching POL.

    "Did you notice the disproportionate number of victims whose agent locations were in Wales?"


    Usual caveats apply. Could be fake, but if there is any substance to it this scandal has a bit to run yet.

    Sounds fake to me, in all honesty.

    Remote access has preoccupied the lawyers, as a clear matter of principle, but I am confident that it has fairly little to do with this scandal.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    "the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh"

    Truly living the life. And yes, yes I'm sure it's fantastic now with a rooftop pool and any number of cocktails, blah, blah.
  • There is nothing wrong with the Second Amendment, it's just the crazy and wilful way people misinterpret it.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,645
    A Civil War between which two protagonists?

    The US Civil War was created by Progressive and Nationalist Abraham Lincoln refusing to compromise on slavery. There’s no current remotely similar situation in America.

    If Trump wins democratic contest, there’s no war.
    To install Trump despite the fact he loses the election? No.

    Unlike with Lincoln, there is no threat where either the answer is Trump, or prevention of Trump is the answer. Trump is no threat to democracy - t’s already proved there’s no war if Trump loses - he didn’t even squat but fled.

    The fear could be hyped up that if Trump got in he could dismantle the checks and balances of Democracy - but that would just be unproven hype, truth is he didn't last time, and the checks and balances of Democracy would prevent him from dismantling the checks and balances of democracy, unless you really wanted to go into silly territory with such an argument as to how it happens.

    My moneys on fact Trump can’t get anywhere near winning another election, far too many voters who thought he could be good and make a difference in 2016, now know they were absolutely mistaken - Trump is absolutely incompetent as a leader to deliver any agenda, let alone a difficult change one. That’s how he’s perceived now by 2016 swing voters who won it for him.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949
    edited January 10
    Next week's witnesses at the Post Office inquiry.

    "Fujitsu Prosecution Support

    Tuesday 16 January
    Rajbinder Sangha (née Bains) (Release Management Coordinator, Fujitsu Services Limited; former member of Fujitsu’s Fraud and Litigation Support Office)

    Wednesday 17 January
    John Simpkins (Team Leader within Fujitsu Software Support Centre)
    Gerald Barnes (Software Developer, Fujitsu)

    Thursday 18 January
    Peter Sewell (former Project Manager and Operations Team Manager, Post Office Account Security Team, Fujitsu)
    Donna Munro (former Systems Management Centre Team Leader and Security Operations Manager, Fujitsu)

    Friday 19 January
    William Paul Patterson (Director of Fujitsu Services Limited)"

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-4-hearing-schedule
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    You are in our thoughts. Why don’t you set up a Go Fund Me to pay for a well earned holiday after you have gone through all of that, just so we don’t have to?
    Thanks, it’s dark and lonely work, but someone has to do it. It’s actually quite nice to get some sympathy

    This glut of gigs is making it hard for me to do my one main summer ambition: a trip through the Stans. Uzbek, Kazakh, and onwards. I shall squeeze it in somehow


    Enjoy Turkmenistan, where you will see, er, the world's largest carpet.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,645
    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    Yep. Lambing season.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    Is there any similar polling for the UK, or other Western states? I'm interested in how much this varies.

    FWIW (in trying to find the above) there's polling from about 18 months ago from YouGov that is not all that different:
    https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/43553-two-in-five-americans-civil-war-somewhat-likely
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,285

    A Civil War between which two protagonists?

    The US Civil War was created by Progressive and Nationalist Abraham Lincoln refusing to compromise on slavery. There’s no current remotely similar situation in America.

    If Trump wins democratic contest, there’s no war.
    To install Trump despite the fact he loses the election? No.

    Unlike with Lincoln, there is no threat where either the answer is Trump, or prevention of Trump is the answer. Trump is no threat to democracy - t’s already proved there’s no war if Trump loses - he didn’t even squat but fled.

    The fear could be hyped up that if Trump got in he could dismantle the checks and balances of Democracy - but that would just be unproven hype, truth is he didn't last time, and the checks and balances of Democracy would prevent him from dismantling the checks and balances of democracy, unless you really wanted to go into silly territory with such an argument as to how it happens.

    My moneys on fact Trump can’t get anywhere near winning another election, far too many voters who thought he could be good and make a difference in 2016, now know they were absolutely mistaken - Trump is absolutely incompetent as a leader to deliver any agenda, let alone a difficult change one. That’s how he’s perceived now by 2016 swing voters who won it for him.

    What if Trump wins and then some of the states that wanted him disqualified reject his legitimacy?

    The Confederacy of Never-Trumpers.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,925
    “Civil War” I’m not sure about. Domestic unrest and civil turmoil, I am pretty sure is guaranteed in some form after the 2024 vote. Our hope must be that it is fleeting, and the country can repair itself.

    For actual all out civil conflict, I think you would need secession, really. That in an of itself isn’t (frighteningly) out of the question. Given the extreme polarisation in US society now, what is to prevent California, say, deciding it isn’t going to sit back and take the potential democratic backsliding of a second Trump presidency? What if Biden gets in again and red states allege fraud again, and decide they will leave the Union? It is probably unlikely, but it’s certainly worryingly more likely than it was 10 years ago.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    a

    There is nothing wrong with the Second Amendment, it's just the crazy and wilful way people misinterpret it.

    What's wrong with arming bears?
  • IanB2 said:

    FPT - Re PO Scandal

    Subscribers to Nick Wallis's email letters will have just received a mail with the following extraordinary extract:

    "Now read this - a comment sent for publication to a blog post I wrote from a purported for Fujitsu engineer using a dummy email address:

    "While I put through no phantom entries myself, I was aware how commonplace it was, and the trivially easy overriding of the rudimentary audit trail embedded in the software too.

    "What started as a prank swiftly became a crime, I prefer to believe most of the perpetrators never seriously consider that POL would treat the discrepancies so seriously and initiate prosecutions. It got totally out of hand. 90% of the phantoms were 'against' the agents, thus unjustly enriching POL.

    "Did you notice the disproportionate number of victims whose agent locations were in Wales?"


    Usual caveats apply. Could be fake, but if there is any substance to it this scandal has a bit to run yet.

    Sounds fake to me, in all honesty.

    Remote access has preoccupied the lawyers, as a clear matter of principle, but I am confident that it has fairly little to do with this scandal.
    Judgement must be suspended, but I have know IT people who did that kind of thing for a giggle.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    In case anyone is paying attention, weather forecast for next Monday's caucus night in Iowa is even more brutal than usual.

    Snow, ice and cold are a given . . . but THIS year is predicted to see the coldest night ever in Iowa caucus history, with temperatures not expected to warm up above 0 degrees Fahrenheit, or -18 Celsius.

    For context, previous record low temp on Iowa caucus night was in 2004, when daytime high was 16 F, or -9 C.

    SO one burning - or freezing? - question is, will there be differential turnout from Trump supporters versus backers of the rest of the Republican field?

    AND which candidate(s) may benefit - or not?

    My own guess is that this may NOT be to Trump's advantage.

    Of course, I'm somewhat biased. Seeing as how IF your truly were an Iowa resident, would definitely be attending local GOP caucus, regardless of frostbite risk, to cast my vote AGAINST Trump.

    You could bet on it!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124

    IanB2 said:

    FPT - Re PO Scandal

    Subscribers to Nick Wallis's email letters will have just received a mail with the following extraordinary extract:

    "Now read this - a comment sent for publication to a blog post I wrote from a purported for Fujitsu engineer using a dummy email address:

    "While I put through no phantom entries myself, I was aware how commonplace it was, and the trivially easy overriding of the rudimentary audit trail embedded in the software too.

    "What started as a prank swiftly became a crime, I prefer to believe most of the perpetrators never seriously consider that POL would treat the discrepancies so seriously and initiate prosecutions. It got totally out of hand. 90% of the phantoms were 'against' the agents, thus unjustly enriching POL.

    "Did you notice the disproportionate number of victims whose agent locations were in Wales?"


    Usual caveats apply. Could be fake, but if there is any substance to it this scandal has a bit to run yet.

    Sounds fake to me, in all honesty.

    Remote access has preoccupied the lawyers, as a clear matter of principle, but I am confident that it has fairly little to do with this scandal.
    Judgement must be suspended, but I have know IT people who did that kind of thing for a giggle.
    If a report of mine did that, I'd Boojam him/her
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342

    Posted on the dead thread...
    I don't think many politicians or any party comes out of this PO scandal well. Nor does most of the press, with some exceptions. But for most of the extended period of time this scandal played out - pretty much my entire adult life - the public hasn't cared either. So perhaps you can understand why elected politicians didn't feel the need to involve themselves too deeply.
    I wonder whether the issue of complexity is the problem here. Although on one level the issue is simple - people lied to cover up problems with a product and tried to shift the blame for the problems onto innocent people - the details are quite complex, hard for the public or politicians to cut through especially when the experts can't be trusted. You see similar problems around other complex technical issues - epidemiology, trade with Europe - where politicians either deny responsibility or weaponise the complexity to deliberately misrepresent things.
    I wonder whether the real failure here lies with the House of Lords. Isn't the whole point of the unelected House that it is composed of people with expertise who can dig into complex issues, including ones that the public don't currently care about? Isn't this precisely the kind of issue that an effective HoL would have got stuck into a decade ago? Perhaps I've missed it but I don't think I've seen that kind of activity.

    There was a debate on the adoption of the famous Lee-Enfield rifle, in the House of Lords, around the turn of the 20th Cent.

    It is marvellous to read - former soldiers arguing from the point of view of practicality. Those wanting more accuracy vs reliability. Each listening to each other's arguments, presenting evidence, discussing alternatives. Lots of evident thinking.
    Lots of very serious amateur shooters around then. Had been reading a fascinating book abotu the railway that had to be set up to provide for the numbers coming to Bisley and around the range complex - currently remaindered. One of those superficially nerdy railway books that throws a great deal of light on the social and other history of its time. IIRC the interest of the noble peers comes over in that too.

    https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_National_Rifle_Association_Its_Tramw/S04IEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=bisley+railway#&printsec=frontcover
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    You are in our thoughts. Why don’t you set up a Go Fund Me to pay for a well earned holiday after you have gone through all of that, just so we don’t have to?
    Thanks, it’s dark and lonely work, but someone has to do it. It’s actually quite nice to get some sympathy

    This glut of gigs is making it hard for me to do my one main summer ambition: a trip through the Stans. Uzbek, Kazakh, and onwards. I shall squeeze it in somehow


    Enjoy Turkmenistan, where you will see, er, the world's largest carpet.
    Isn't there also that big hole that's been on fire for decades?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Andy_JS said:

    Next week's witnesses at the Post Office inquiry.

    "Fujitsu Prosecution Support

    Tuesday 16 January
    Rajbinder Sangha (née Bains) (Release Management Coordinator, Fujitsu Services Limited; former member of Fujitsu’s Fraud and Litigation Support Office)

    Wednesday 17 January
    John Simpkins (Team Leader within Fujitsu Software Support Centre)
    Gerald Barnes (Software Developer, Fujitsu)

    Thursday 18 January
    Peter Sewell (former Project Manager and Operations Team Manager, Post Office Account Security Team, Fujitsu)
    Donna Munro (former Systems Management Centre Team Leader and Security Operations Manager, Fujitsu)

    Friday 19 January
    William Paul Patterson (Director of Fujitsu Services Limited)"

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-4-hearing-schedule

    As an American, the moniker "Fujitsu Services Limited" sounds VERY apt in this instance.

    UNLESS they mean "services" as a verb; that is, in the same sense, as a stallion "services" a mare?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,598
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    "the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh"

    Truly living the life. And yes, yes I'm sure it's fantastic now with a rooftop pool and any number of cocktails, blah, blah.
    Phnom Penh is fucking brilliant now. One of the most entertaining cities on the planet

    And I’ve been to a few entertaining cities

    It has all the hedonistic languor of Bangkok in about 1990, with the buzz of a young Chinese city in 2003, with the sizzle of Saigon in 2010. And brilliant food. And no one gives a fuck, it is quite lawless. And excellent French wine is possibly cheaper here than in France
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,124
    Carnyx said:

    Posted on the dead thread...
    I don't think many politicians or any party comes out of this PO scandal well. Nor does most of the press, with some exceptions. But for most of the extended period of time this scandal played out - pretty much my entire adult life - the public hasn't cared either. So perhaps you can understand why elected politicians didn't feel the need to involve themselves too deeply.
    I wonder whether the issue of complexity is the problem here. Although on one level the issue is simple - people lied to cover up problems with a product and tried to shift the blame for the problems onto innocent people - the details are quite complex, hard for the public or politicians to cut through especially when the experts can't be trusted. You see similar problems around other complex technical issues - epidemiology, trade with Europe - where politicians either deny responsibility or weaponise the complexity to deliberately misrepresent things.
    I wonder whether the real failure here lies with the House of Lords. Isn't the whole point of the unelected House that it is composed of people with expertise who can dig into complex issues, including ones that the public don't currently care about? Isn't this precisely the kind of issue that an effective HoL would have got stuck into a decade ago? Perhaps I've missed it but I don't think I've seen that kind of activity.

    There was a debate on the adoption of the famous Lee-Enfield rifle, in the House of Lords, around the turn of the 20th Cent.

    It is marvellous to read - former soldiers arguing from the point of view of practicality. Those wanting more accuracy vs reliability. Each listening to each other's arguments, presenting evidence, discussing alternatives. Lots of evident thinking.
    Lots of very serious amateur shooters around then. Had been reading a fascinating book abotu the railway that had to be set up to provide for the numbers coming to Bisley and around the range complex - currently remaindered. One of those superficially nerdy railway books that throws a great deal of light on the social and other history of its time. IIRC the interest of the noble peers comes over in that too.

    https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_National_Rifle_Association_Its_Tramw/S04IEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=bisley+railway#&printsec=frontcover
    Indeed. What especially struck me about the debate was that it was so moderate - the target shooters didn't just demand a 1,000 yard rifle nor the ex-soldiers a club which sprayed bullets. Both groups listened to the points from each other and came to an agreement that the Lee-Enfield was a sensible compromise.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949

    In case anyone is paying attention, weather forecast for next Monday's caucus night in Iowa is even more brutal than usual.

    Snow, ice and cold are a given . . . but THIS year is predicted to see the coldest night ever in Iowa caucus history, with temperatures not expected to warm up above 0 degrees Fahrenheit, or -18 Celsius.

    For context, previous record low temp on Iowa caucus night was in 2004, when daytime high was 16 F, or -9 C.

    SO one burning - or freezing? - question is, will there be differential turnout from Trump supporters versus backers of the rest of the Republican field?

    AND which candidate(s) may benefit - or not?

    My own guess is that this may NOT be to Trump's advantage.

    Of course, I'm somewhat biased. Seeing as how IF your truly were an Iowa resident, would definitely be attending local GOP caucus, regardless of frostbite risk, to cast my vote AGAINST Trump.

    You could bet on it!

    I'm surprised caucuses haven't been ruled unconstitutional, because they inevitably exclude a lot of people.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Isn't "Flint Knapper's Journal" really the "Carbon Burner's Gazette"?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,645
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I’m surprised Starmer didn’t go on the Post Office scandal.

    Are you also still surprised that, despite the facts having been in plain sight for more than a decade, everyone’s only worrying about it now?
    Oh it's ridiculous and PB among others has done excellent work covering it. But politics is very reactive and I was surprised that Starmer didn't ask any questions on it. Yes, I know there was the statement this afternoon, but he could have still asked pertinent questions about the big subject.
    If newspapers and PBers want to be even sillier, Hard Man of payouts Starmer merely said he would “look at” Generous Man of the People Sunak’s new legislation that would ensure victims are "swiftly exonerated and compensated by end of year” - Starmer did not say he would vote for the bill or back it. Why the hell wont he just say he will back it, have these victims not suffered enough for Starmer to now start playing House of Commons games and treating their plight as a political football 😈

    The reality is it’s not clear exactly how the mechanics of the Commons overturning hundreds of prosecutions will work. Sunak’s bill mechanism “sign this to say you are innocent, and face legal consequences if you are not” might not even be the better of the available options, whilst the promise of “exoneration and generously paid out by end of year” is, let’s be honest, an election year promise from a government that knows its under pressure today and will be in opposition at the end of the year when the promise comes to the crunch.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949
    edited January 10
    O/T

    The media has finally picked up on this problem.

    "Rise in drivers being dazzled by headlights: RAC blames brighter LEDs and more SUVs
    Four in five motorists say the problem of dazzling is getting worse each year
    Three quarters of drivers say they are regularly blinded by other car lights
    Cheap aftermarket LED bulbs and failure to adjust lights have also been blamed"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-12942101/Rise-drivers-dazzled-headlights-RAC-blames-brighter-LEDs-SUVs.html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,221
    IanB2 said:

    FPT

    IanB2 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Nigelb said:

    DougSeal said:


    tlg86 said:

    I’m surprised Starmer didn’t go on the Post Office scandal.

    His silence has been absolutely thunderous.

    Given New Labour commissioned and pushed out Horizon they're up to their necks in it. He's decided silence is the best strategy and is probably all too happy for Ed Davey to take the hit.
    Can you people take responsibility for anything? It was the brainchild of Peter Lilley when he was a minister in Major's Government. Not absolving the 1997-2010 administration but, really, do some basic fact checking before spouting off will you?
    Nothing wrong with my facts.

    The Herd just can't stand it. They want to pretend it had nothing to do with them.

    Nothing at all.
    "The Herd"; "the Blob"...

    Examples of Tory paranoia.
    Nah, reflects our sheep-like regulars who are desperate to scrub any responsibility of Labour from the record.

    There's plenty on here. We all know their names.
    There is a time-value element to this which is quite important. The evidence for a huge miscarriage of justice has grown over time, as have the efforts to conceal it.

    Blaming the Tories for commissioning it in the 90s is silly. Blaming the Tories for awarding Vennels a CBE in 2019 , along with Cabinet Office and NHS jobs... seems fair to me.
    The basic idea of a computerised post office counter system reporting to HQ, doing the books etc was sensible. In fact, the standard way of doing things in most of retail.

    The problem was

    1) The implementation was crap
    2) The crapness resulted in the prosecutions.
    3) Managers with write-only minds failed to notice anything
    4) When they did notice, they lied and covered up. Then lied and covered up. And carried on with the prosecutions.
    5) As this went up the chain, so did the lying about it. Until everyone who knew was lying like Professors of Lying at Lying University in Lyingshire.
    6) Meanwhile they were doing "Fuck you, pay me"* to all the SPMs

    1) was required to create the disaster. But 2-6) were required to make the slow motion disaster destroy so many lives.

    1) on it's own might have resulted in a handful of mistaken prosecutions, before the fuck up was corrected.

    *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c3bhh8fqYs
    That's a good (but sad...) list. I'd just like to add two points:

    *) Essentially, the cover-up caused this mess. When the PO realised something was wrong - which they must have done fairly early on - instead of admitting it and sorting it out, they lied and continued as before.

    Strictly, when the PO realised something was wrong, they were willing to fund an independent investigation and fund an independent mediation scheme. Arbuthnot has said that his initial interactions with Vennells et al were constructive.

    When they realised that what was wrong was a huge iceberg that would sink the entire ship, then somehow - yet to be established - they decided to obstruct and cover up. Which is shameful, and the main task of the inquiry to uncover.

    Paradoxically, their original willingness to open their books is evidence that, at the top of the organisation at least, they didn’t have a full understanding of the abject shambles they were sitting on, long after it was apparent to people further down whose working lives were deep within it.
    Yes, it shouldn't be forgotten that Vennells set up the independent inquiry by Second Sight voluntarily and at the PO's expense. As you indicate, it was only later when it started to report adverse findings that she backtracked.

    And lest we be tempted to slag off all politicians, James Arbuthnot (my former MP) stands out like a beacon of light and reason.
    Arbuthnot is on record as saying that, when he was first contacted by his constituent Jo Hamilton’s experience (now dramatised for us all), he raised it with someone he knew senior in the Federation, and was told that the system was working well and that Hamilton must be doing something wrong. So he let it rest.

    Which he accepted, until some time later he got complaints from constituents that their village SPSO was closed. When he asked about it, he found out that PO auditors had suspended the postmaster because of unexplained shortfalls, and when he investigated further he discovered that this subpostmaster was new and had taken over the SPSO from another subpostmaster who had been forced out after shortfalls. That was when he connected the dots and wondered whether there might be a bigger picture.
    That's interesting, my dad was asking me if that sort of thing had happened. Would be very unlucky to get two bad apples at the same place one after the other.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342
    edited January 10

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I’m surprised Starmer didn’t go on the Post Office scandal.

    Are you also still surprised that, despite the facts having been in plain sight for more than a decade, everyone’s only worrying about it now?
    Oh it's ridiculous and PB among others has done excellent work covering it. But politics is very reactive and I was surprised that Starmer didn't ask any questions on it. Yes, I know there was the statement this afternoon, but he could have still asked pertinent questions about the big subject.
    If newspapers and PBers want to be even sillier, Hard Man of payouts Starmer merely said he would “look at” Generous Man of the People Sunak’s new legislation that would ensure victims are "swiftly exonerated and compensated by end of year” - Starmer did not say he would vote for the bill or back it. Why the hell wont he just say he will back it, have these victims not suffered enough for Starmer to now start playing House of Commons games and treating their plight as a political football 😈

    The reality is it’s not clear exactly how the mechanics of the Commons overturning hundreds of prosecutions will work. Sunak’s bill mechanism “sign this to say you are innocent, and face legal consequences if you are not” might not even be the better of the available options, whilst the promise of “exoneration and generously paid out by end of year” is, let’s be honest, an election year promise from a government that knows its under pressure today and will be in opposition at the end of the year when the promise comes to the crunch.
    And here's another tanker-train of worms coming up, on exactly the same logic [edit] and "we want some too".

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/10/infected-blood-scandal-victims-families-call-for-action-amid-post-office-injustice
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,147
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    "the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh"

    Truly living the life. And yes, yes I'm sure it's fantastic now with a rooftop pool and any number of cocktails, blah, blah.
    Phnom Penh is fucking brilliant now. One of the most entertaining cities on the planet

    And I’ve been to a few entertaining cities

    It has all the hedonistic languor of Bangkok in about 1990, with the buzz of a young Chinese city in 2003, with the sizzle of Saigon in 2010. And brilliant food. And no one gives a fuck, it is quite lawless. And excellent French wine is possibly cheaper here than in France
    You should be banned from telling us about all the brilliant, and very occasionally dreadful, places you visit. It's all just too predictable.

    In future, just tell us about the mediocre places.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 56,598

    Isn't "Flint Knapper's Journal" really the "Carbon Burner's Gazette"?

    How do you think they make flint in the first place?


    “The majority of silica found in flint nodules is biogenic (produced by living organisms or biological processes). Although today's flint nodules are inorganic, the silica that formed them was originally sourced from the remains of sea sponges and siliceous planktonic micro-organisms (diatoms, radiolarians) during the late cretaceous period (60-95 million years ago”

    By killing off everything with my constant carbonogenic air-travels, I will create MORE flints
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342

    Isn't "Flint Knapper's Journal" really the "Carbon Burner's Gazette"?

    And (effectively, in terms of oxide production) nitrogen too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    You are in our thoughts. Why don’t you set up a Go Fund Me to pay for a well earned holiday after you have gone through all of that, just so we don’t have to?
    Thanks, it’s dark and lonely work, but someone has to do it. It’s actually quite nice to get some sympathy

    This glut of gigs is making it hard for me to do my one main summer ambition: a trip through the Stans. Uzbek, Kazakh, and onwards. I shall squeeze it in somehow


    Enjoy Turkmenistan, where you will see, er, the world's largest carpet.
    Isn't there also that big hole that's been on fire for decades?
    I think that is in Azerbaijan.

    Or else its the Bin Fires of Middlesbrough.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909

    Posted on the dead thread...
    I don't think many politicians or any party comes out of this PO scandal well. Nor does most of the press, with some exceptions. But for most of the extended period of time this scandal played out - pretty much my entire adult life - the public hasn't cared either. So perhaps you can understand why elected politicians didn't feel the need to involve themselves too deeply.
    I wonder whether the issue of complexity is the problem here. Although on one level the issue is simple - people lied to cover up problems with a product and tried to shift the blame for the problems onto innocent people - the details are quite complex, hard for the public or politicians to cut through especially when the experts can't be trusted. You see similar problems around other complex technical issues - epidemiology, trade with Europe - where politicians either deny responsibility or weaponise the complexity to deliberately misrepresent things.
    I wonder whether the real failure here lies with the House of Lords. Isn't the whole point of the unelected House that it is composed of people with expertise who can dig into complex issues, including ones that the public don't currently care about? Isn't this precisely the kind of issue that an effective HoL would have got stuck into a decade ago? Perhaps I've missed it but I don't think I've seen that kind of activity.

    Every system will have bad actors and genuine mistakes. The advantage of an open democratic system is that bad actors and honest mistakes should be discovered and rectified more quickly.

    I agree that the failure of various institutions in the country more widely to correct the mistakes and dishonest at the Post Office is the more worrying feature of the scandal.

    Have we not been discussing the problems with Horizon for as long as politicalbetting.com has been in existence? Why has it taken this long to get to this stage?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,186
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    "the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh"

    Truly living the life. And yes, yes I'm sure it's fantastic now with a rooftop pool and any number of cocktails, blah, blah.
    Phnom Penh is fucking brilliant now. One of the most entertaining cities on the planet

    And I’ve been to a few entertaining cities

    It has all the hedonistic languor of Bangkok in about 1990, with the buzz of a young Chinese city in 2003, with the sizzle of Saigon in 2010. And brilliant food. And no one gives a fuck, it is quite lawless. And excellent French wine is possibly cheaper here than in France
    But no Greggs. Forget it.
  • IanB2 said:

    Remote access has preoccupied the lawyers, as a clear matter of principle, but I am confident that it has fairly little to do with this scandal.

    The lack of a robust audit trail means we'll never know; I personally am inclined to believe unauthorised remote access isn't a major factor because there's no obvious gain from it in this case. But it is widespread in some IT companies, I've seen it regularly.

    A company I worked for in the past did IT support for, among others, dental practices. One chap got rather abruptly sacked when it was discovered he'd been accessing his local practice's server to jump the queue and get earlier appointments. He was only caught because the software used by the practice got an update with enhanced logging that he was unaware of, and someone noticed appointments being booked at 2am...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,831

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Andy_JS said:

    In case anyone is paying attention, weather forecast for next Monday's caucus night in Iowa is even more brutal than usual.

    Snow, ice and cold are a given . . . but THIS year is predicted to see the coldest night ever in Iowa caucus history, with temperatures not expected to warm up above 0 degrees Fahrenheit, or -18 Celsius.

    For context, previous record low temp on Iowa caucus night was in 2004, when daytime high was 16 F, or -9 C.

    SO one burning - or freezing? - question is, will there be differential turnout from Trump supporters versus backers of the rest of the Republican field?

    AND which candidate(s) may benefit - or not?

    My own guess is that this may NOT be to Trump's advantage.

    Of course, I'm somewhat biased. Seeing as how IF your truly were an Iowa resident, would definitely be attending local GOP caucus, regardless of frostbite risk, to cast my vote AGAINST Trump.

    You could bet on it!

    I'm surprised caucuses haven't been ruled unconstitutional, because they inevitably exclude a lot of people.
    Precisely the reason why Democratic Party has been replacing caucuses with primaries.

    Also the reason why the Republican Party has been doing the opposite.

    As for constitutionality or otherwise, note that SCOTUS has ruled in favor of right of political parties to exclude non-party members from nominating proceedings, and NOT just for presidential nominations.

    For example, decision (majority opinion by Antonin Scalia) declaring the old Washington State "blanket" primary (for everything except President) unconstitutional. Under this system, primary voters could vote for any (one) candidate regardless of party, with the top Democratic and top Republican vote-getters getting nominated.

    Best primary system in the freaking world from perspective of VOTERS - so naturally Scalia wanted it gone, thus ruling it was grossly unfair to PARTIES.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited January 10
    “During the war…”

    He does like to mention all the people he prosecuted as Director of Public ProsecutIons

    if he's happy to take the credit for the work the CPS did even when he wasn't the prosecuting lawyer he can take responsibility for their failures as well

    https://x.com/timmyvoe240886/status/1745099359820345791?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,186

    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    You are in our thoughts. Why don’t you set up a Go Fund Me to pay for a well earned holiday after you have gone through all of that, just so we don’t have to?
    Thanks, it’s dark and lonely work, but someone has to do it. It’s actually quite nice to get some sympathy

    This glut of gigs is making it hard for me to do my one main summer ambition: a trip through the Stans. Uzbek, Kazakh, and onwards. I shall squeeze it in somehow


    Enjoy Turkmenistan, where you will see, er, the world's largest carpet.
    Isn't there also that big hole that's been on fire for decades?
    I think that is in Azerbaijan.

    Or else its the Bin Fires of Middlesbrough.
    A nice piece of marketing:

    Middlesbrough - a big hole that's been on fire for decades.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,067
    edited January 10

    a

    There is nothing wrong with the Second Amendment, it's just the crazy and wilful way people misinterpret it.

    What's wrong with arming bears?
    No no no, it's a right to *Bear* arms

    https://youtu.be/rIZgiuWAsqQ?si=LH3QAfOjt78AHLrh
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,067

    Andy_JS said:

    Next week's witnesses at the Post Office inquiry.

    "Fujitsu Prosecution Support

    Tuesday 16 January
    Rajbinder Sangha (née Bains) (Release Management Coordinator, Fujitsu Services Limited; former member of Fujitsu’s Fraud and Litigation Support Office)

    Wednesday 17 January
    John Simpkins (Team Leader within Fujitsu Software Support Centre)
    Gerald Barnes (Software Developer, Fujitsu)

    Thursday 18 January
    Peter Sewell (former Project Manager and Operations Team Manager, Post Office Account Security Team, Fujitsu)
    Donna Munro (former Systems Management Centre Team Leader and Security Operations Manager, Fujitsu)

    Friday 19 January
    William Paul Patterson (Director of Fujitsu Services Limited)"

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-4-hearing-schedule

    As an American, the moniker "Fujitsu Services Limited" sounds VERY apt in this instance.

    UNLESS they mean "services" as a verb; that is, in the same sense, as a stallion "services" a mare?
    You know we have a chain of shops called "PoundLand"? I hear Americans find that funny for some reason...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,285
    Look at the crowd of people celebrating San Francisco voting for a Gaza ceasefire resolution:

    https://x.com/lea_suzuki/status/1744885313544352001
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,949

    Andy_JS said:

    Next week's witnesses at the Post Office inquiry.

    "Fujitsu Prosecution Support

    Tuesday 16 January
    Rajbinder Sangha (née Bains) (Release Management Coordinator, Fujitsu Services Limited; former member of Fujitsu’s Fraud and Litigation Support Office)

    Wednesday 17 January
    John Simpkins (Team Leader within Fujitsu Software Support Centre)
    Gerald Barnes (Software Developer, Fujitsu)

    Thursday 18 January
    Peter Sewell (former Project Manager and Operations Team Manager, Post Office Account Security Team, Fujitsu)
    Donna Munro (former Systems Management Centre Team Leader and Security Operations Manager, Fujitsu)

    Friday 19 January
    William Paul Patterson (Director of Fujitsu Services Limited)"

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-4-hearing-schedule

    As an American, the moniker "Fujitsu Services Limited" sounds VERY apt in this instance.

    UNLESS they mean "services" as a verb; that is, in the same sense, as a stallion "services" a mare?
    I didn't know American companies don't add Limited to the name.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
    No, because the southern States were an economic basket case. The UK wass already declining relatively, and investing overseas too much. Having the CSA would have been another debit area.

    And the matter of slavery. There'd have been another war of independence from the UK.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,232

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    "the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh"

    Truly living the life. And yes, yes I'm sure it's fantastic now with a rooftop pool and any number of cocktails, blah, blah.
    Phnom Penh is fucking brilliant now. One of the most entertaining cities on the planet

    And I’ve been to a few entertaining cities

    It has all the hedonistic languor of Bangkok in about 1990, with the buzz of a young Chinese city in 2003, with the sizzle of Saigon in 2010. And brilliant food. And no one gives a fuck, it is quite lawless. And excellent French wine is possibly cheaper here than in France
    But no Greggs. Forget it.
    Why do people actually like Greggs. I don't get it.
  • The government is expected to fire the starting gun this week on two by-elections that will give Rishi Sunak an early election-year test.

    The contests are in Wellingborough and Kingswood, both safe Tory seats. But with Labour leading in the polls, either could inflict a damaging defeat on the prime minister months before the general election, almost certainly to be held later this year.

    The Times understands that the writ needed to call a by-election will be moved for both seats on Thursday. After that, the vote must be held within 21 to 27 working days, with February 15 pencilled in by strategists.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/by-elections-kingswood-wellingsborough-tories-rishi-sunak-rzwtnnbsq
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    edited January 10

    The government is expected to fire the starting gun this week on two by-elections that will give Rishi Sunak an early election-year test.

    The contests are in Wellingborough and Kingswood, both safe Tory seats. But with Labour leading in the polls, either could inflict a damaging defeat on the prime minister months before the general election, almost certainly to be held later this year.

    The Times understands that the writ needed to call a by-election will be moved for both seats on Thursday. After that, the vote must be held within 21 to 27 working days, with February 15 pencilled in by strategists.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/by-elections-kingswood-wellingsborough-tories-rishi-sunak-rzwtnnbsq

    Post valentines day heartbreak for Rishi, I guess....
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Next week's witnesses at the Post Office inquiry.

    "Fujitsu Prosecution Support

    Tuesday 16 January
    Rajbinder Sangha (née Bains) (Release Management Coordinator, Fujitsu Services Limited; former member of Fujitsu’s Fraud and Litigation Support Office)

    Wednesday 17 January
    John Simpkins (Team Leader within Fujitsu Software Support Centre)
    Gerald Barnes (Software Developer, Fujitsu)

    Thursday 18 January
    Peter Sewell (former Project Manager and Operations Team Manager, Post Office Account Security Team, Fujitsu)
    Donna Munro (former Systems Management Centre Team Leader and Security Operations Manager, Fujitsu)

    Friday 19 January
    William Paul Patterson (Director of Fujitsu Services Limited)"

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-4-hearing-schedule

    As an American, the moniker "Fujitsu Services Limited" sounds VERY apt in this instance.

    UNLESS they mean "services" as a verb; that is, in the same sense, as a stallion "services" a mare?
    I didn't know American companies don't add Limited to the name.
    I think they go 'LLC'?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    edited January 10
    FPT: Andy_JS linking to an interesting piece in UnHerd reminded me of this practice, about a century ago in the US. Mines (and perhaps some factories) paid men's wages to their wives. Typically, the wife would come down to the mine with his lunch at noon on Saturdays, collect her husband's pay, and give him enough back so he could get drunk that night.

    Most people then thought that it was risky for a miner to have his full week's pay with him, while he was drinking.

    (Here's the UnHerd piece again: https://unherd.com/2024/01/why-women-still-rely-on-richer-men/ )
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Mortimer said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Next week's witnesses at the Post Office inquiry.

    "Fujitsu Prosecution Support

    Tuesday 16 January
    Rajbinder Sangha (née Bains) (Release Management Coordinator, Fujitsu Services Limited; former member of Fujitsu’s Fraud and Litigation Support Office)

    Wednesday 17 January
    John Simpkins (Team Leader within Fujitsu Software Support Centre)
    Gerald Barnes (Software Developer, Fujitsu)

    Thursday 18 January
    Peter Sewell (former Project Manager and Operations Team Manager, Post Office Account Security Team, Fujitsu)
    Donna Munro (former Systems Management Centre Team Leader and Security Operations Manager, Fujitsu)

    Friday 19 January
    William Paul Patterson (Director of Fujitsu Services Limited)"

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-4-hearing-schedule

    As an American, the moniker "Fujitsu Services Limited" sounds VERY apt in this instance.

    UNLESS they mean "services" as a verb; that is, in the same sense, as a stallion "services" a mare?
    I didn't know American companies don't add Limited to the name.
    I think they go 'LLC'?
    Isn't it "inc" ?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Seattle Times ($) - Alaska Airlines flight at a different altitude could have been ‘catastrophic’

    Several Alaska Airlines Flight 1282 passengers were hurt when a side of the Boeing 737 MAX 9 burst midflight last week — but injuries could have been much worse had circumstances been slightly different, according to local aviation medicine experts.

    The aircraft was about 20 minutes into the flight, headed to Southern California, and had climbed about 16,000 feet when a door plug blew out and left a wide hole in the plane. If the MAX 9 had been at cruising altitude — around 30,000 to 40,000 feet — injuries might have been “catastrophic,” said Dr. William Bensinger, a Seattle aviation medical examiner who’s spent more than 40 years treating and evaluating pilots.

    “The most concerning to me would be if someone was sitting in the seat next to the blowout,” Bensinger said. “Rapid decompression like that would cause air to rush out of the cabin, and if someone were sitting in that chair with their seatbelt off, they would get sucked out of the airplane. … It would have happened so fast you couldn’t react.”

    On Flight 1282, no one was in the seat directly next to the blowout, but a 15-year-old was sitting in the window seat directly ahead of the hole as the air rushed out of the passenger cabin. His mother, sitting in the middle seat next to him, described to The Seattle Times seeing her son’s seat twisting backward toward the hole, his seat headrest ripped off and sucked into the void and her son’s arms jerked upward. . . .

    She held on to her son tightly, hooking her arms beneath his arms and wrapped around his back. It wasn’t until after the flight, she said, that she noticed his clothing had been torn off his upper body.

    The 10,000- to 20,000-foot difference in altitude means a significant difference in air pressure and available oxygen levels, according to Bensinger. At 16,000 feet, air pressure is “about 90% lower” than what people are used to at sea level, and passengers have about half the level of oxygen they’d normally have, he said. At 30,000 feet, even less oxygen is available in the air — and temperatures are much colder.

    Cabins are generally pressurized between 4,000 and 8,000 feet, but if the door had blown out while the plane was at cruise level, people aboard would likely have had less than a minute before losing consciousness, Bensinger said. . . .

    SSI - Boeing, its subcontractor(s) AND the FAA have MUCH explaining to do, to put it most mildly.

    AND so does Alaska Airlines.

    Why? Because they knew the airplane in question had a PROBLEM with pressurization . . . and actually kept it from flying over the Pacific Ocean from West Coast to Hawaii and back . . . yet kept it flying on other routes!

    Note the plane was headed from Portland, Oregon to Ontario, California. Incident occurred shortly after takeoff, when plane was only half way up to normal cruising altitude.

    So IF it had happened say a hour later . . . .
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,214
    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Next week's witnesses at the Post Office inquiry.

    "Fujitsu Prosecution Support

    Tuesday 16 January
    Rajbinder Sangha (née Bains) (Release Management Coordinator, Fujitsu Services Limited; former member of Fujitsu’s Fraud and Litigation Support Office)

    Wednesday 17 January
    John Simpkins (Team Leader within Fujitsu Software Support Centre)
    Gerald Barnes (Software Developer, Fujitsu)

    Thursday 18 January
    Peter Sewell (former Project Manager and Operations Team Manager, Post Office Account Security Team, Fujitsu)
    Donna Munro (former Systems Management Centre Team Leader and Security Operations Manager, Fujitsu)

    Friday 19 January
    William Paul Patterson (Director of Fujitsu Services Limited)"

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-4-hearing-schedule

    As an American, the moniker "Fujitsu Services Limited" sounds VERY apt in this instance.

    UNLESS they mean "services" as a verb; that is, in the same sense, as a stallion "services" a mare?
    I didn't know American companies don't add Limited to the name.
    I think they go 'LLC'?
    Isn't it "inc" ?
    Inc is the equivalent of PLC (or SA, NV, AG etc), LLC is the equivalent of Ltd (or sarl, BV, GmbH etc).
  • Mortimer said:

    The government is expected to fire the starting gun this week on two by-elections that will give Rishi Sunak an early election-year test.

    The contests are in Wellingborough and Kingswood, both safe Tory seats. But with Labour leading in the polls, either could inflict a damaging defeat on the prime minister months before the general election, almost certainly to be held later this year.

    The Times understands that the writ needed to call a by-election will be moved for both seats on Thursday. After that, the vote must be held within 21 to 27 working days, with February 15 pencilled in by strategists.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/by-elections-kingswood-wellingsborough-tories-rishi-sunak-rzwtnnbsq

    Post valentines day heartbreak for Rishi, I guess....
    I've got a romantic weekend booked that weekend.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,453

    Mortimer said:

    The government is expected to fire the starting gun this week on two by-elections that will give Rishi Sunak an early election-year test.

    The contests are in Wellingborough and Kingswood, both safe Tory seats. But with Labour leading in the polls, either could inflict a damaging defeat on the prime minister months before the general election, almost certainly to be held later this year.

    The Times understands that the writ needed to call a by-election will be moved for both seats on Thursday. After that, the vote must be held within 21 to 27 working days, with February 15 pencilled in by strategists.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/by-elections-kingswood-wellingsborough-tories-rishi-sunak-rzwtnnbsq

    Post valentines day heartbreak for Rishi, I guess....
    I've got a romantic weekend booked that weekend.
    How bad would the results have to be to trigger a full-on leadership crisis for Sunak?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    FPT: Andy_JS linking to an interesting piece in UnHerd reminded me of this practice, about a century ago in the US. Mines (and perhaps some factories) paid men's wages to their wives. Typically, the wife would come down to the mine with his lunch at noon on Saturdays, collect her husband's pay, and give him enough back so he could get drunk that night.

    Most people then thought that it was risky for a miner to have his full week's pay with him, while he was drinking.

    (Here's the UnHerd piece again: https://unherd.com/2024/01/why-women-still-rely-on-richer-men/ )

    Do you have citation for your "paid . . . their wives" factoid? Sounds like bullshit to me.
  • Mortimer said:

    The government is expected to fire the starting gun this week on two by-elections that will give Rishi Sunak an early election-year test.

    The contests are in Wellingborough and Kingswood, both safe Tory seats. But with Labour leading in the polls, either could inflict a damaging defeat on the prime minister months before the general election, almost certainly to be held later this year.

    The Times understands that the writ needed to call a by-election will be moved for both seats on Thursday. After that, the vote must be held within 21 to 27 working days, with February 15 pencilled in by strategists.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/by-elections-kingswood-wellingsborough-tories-rishi-sunak-rzwtnnbsq

    Post valentines day heartbreak for Rishi, I guess....
    I've got a romantic weekend booked that weekend.
    How bad would the results have to be to trigger a full-on leadership crisis for Sunak?
    Finishing behind Reform.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,232

    Mortimer said:

    The government is expected to fire the starting gun this week on two by-elections that will give Rishi Sunak an early election-year test.

    The contests are in Wellingborough and Kingswood, both safe Tory seats. But with Labour leading in the polls, either could inflict a damaging defeat on the prime minister months before the general election, almost certainly to be held later this year.

    The Times understands that the writ needed to call a by-election will be moved for both seats on Thursday. After that, the vote must be held within 21 to 27 working days, with February 15 pencilled in by strategists.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/by-elections-kingswood-wellingsborough-tories-rishi-sunak-rzwtnnbsq

    Post valentines day heartbreak for Rishi, I guess....
    I've got a romantic weekend booked that weekend.
    If it's with the wife it doesn't count.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,038
    Off topic: MoonRabbit - If you are interested in Lincoln and the US Civil War, may I suggest that you read some of the classic works on it, for example, Sandburg's biography of Lincoln, or Bruce Catton's Centennial trilogy.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Next week's witnesses at the Post Office inquiry.

    "Fujitsu Prosecution Support

    Tuesday 16 January
    Rajbinder Sangha (née Bains) (Release Management Coordinator, Fujitsu Services Limited; former member of Fujitsu’s Fraud and Litigation Support Office)

    Wednesday 17 January
    John Simpkins (Team Leader within Fujitsu Software Support Centre)
    Gerald Barnes (Software Developer, Fujitsu)

    Thursday 18 January
    Peter Sewell (former Project Manager and Operations Team Manager, Post Office Account Security Team, Fujitsu)
    Donna Munro (former Systems Management Centre Team Leader and Security Operations Manager, Fujitsu)

    Friday 19 January
    William Paul Patterson (Director of Fujitsu Services Limited)"

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-4-hearing-schedule

    As an American, the moniker "Fujitsu Services Limited" sounds VERY apt in this instance.

    UNLESS they mean "services" as a verb; that is, in the same sense, as a stallion "services" a mare?
    I didn't know American companies don't add Limited to the name.
    Corporation (Corp for short). Which by definition are limited legal liability enterprises.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,453

    Mortimer said:

    The government is expected to fire the starting gun this week on two by-elections that will give Rishi Sunak an early election-year test.

    The contests are in Wellingborough and Kingswood, both safe Tory seats. But with Labour leading in the polls, either could inflict a damaging defeat on the prime minister months before the general election, almost certainly to be held later this year.

    The Times understands that the writ needed to call a by-election will be moved for both seats on Thursday. After that, the vote must be held within 21 to 27 working days, with February 15 pencilled in by strategists.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/by-elections-kingswood-wellingsborough-tories-rishi-sunak-rzwtnnbsq

    Post valentines day heartbreak for Rishi, I guess....
    I've got a romantic weekend booked that weekend.
    How bad would the results have to be to trigger a full-on leadership crisis for Sunak?
    Finishing behind Reform.
    That's OK then, aren't they sitting Kingswood out?
  • Mortimer said:

    The government is expected to fire the starting gun this week on two by-elections that will give Rishi Sunak an early election-year test.

    The contests are in Wellingborough and Kingswood, both safe Tory seats. But with Labour leading in the polls, either could inflict a damaging defeat on the prime minister months before the general election, almost certainly to be held later this year.

    The Times understands that the writ needed to call a by-election will be moved for both seats on Thursday. After that, the vote must be held within 21 to 27 working days, with February 15 pencilled in by strategists.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/by-elections-kingswood-wellingsborough-tories-rishi-sunak-rzwtnnbsq

    Post valentines day heartbreak for Rishi, I guess....
    I've got a romantic weekend booked that weekend.
    How bad would the results have to be to trigger a full-on leadership crisis for Sunak?
    Finishing behind Reform.
    That's OK then, aren't they sitting Kingswood out?
    Yup but not in Wellingborough.
  • Stocky said:

    Mortimer said:

    The government is expected to fire the starting gun this week on two by-elections that will give Rishi Sunak an early election-year test.

    The contests are in Wellingborough and Kingswood, both safe Tory seats. But with Labour leading in the polls, either could inflict a damaging defeat on the prime minister months before the general election, almost certainly to be held later this year.

    The Times understands that the writ needed to call a by-election will be moved for both seats on Thursday. After that, the vote must be held within 21 to 27 working days, with February 15 pencilled in by strategists.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/by-elections-kingswood-wellingsborough-tories-rishi-sunak-rzwtnnbsq

    Post valentines day heartbreak for Rishi, I guess....
    I've got a romantic weekend booked that weekend.
    If it's with the wife it doesn't count.
    Nope, not the wifey.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,779

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
    I've seen some crazy fantasies from right-wing loonies, but making the Confederate States a British Protectorate in order to stymie the USA has to beat them all.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    CatMan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Next week's witnesses at the Post Office inquiry.

    "Fujitsu Prosecution Support

    Tuesday 16 January
    Rajbinder Sangha (née Bains) (Release Management Coordinator, Fujitsu Services Limited; former member of Fujitsu’s Fraud and Litigation Support Office)

    Wednesday 17 January
    John Simpkins (Team Leader within Fujitsu Software Support Centre)
    Gerald Barnes (Software Developer, Fujitsu)

    Thursday 18 January
    Peter Sewell (former Project Manager and Operations Team Manager, Post Office Account Security Team, Fujitsu)
    Donna Munro (former Systems Management Centre Team Leader and Security Operations Manager, Fujitsu)

    Friday 19 January
    William Paul Patterson (Director of Fujitsu Services Limited)"

    https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/phase-4-hearing-schedule

    As an American, the moniker "Fujitsu Services Limited" sounds VERY apt in this instance.

    UNLESS they mean "services" as a verb; that is, in the same sense, as a stallion "services" a mare?
    You know we have a chain of shops called "PoundLand"? I hear Americans find that funny for some reason...
    What we have are "dollar" stores, don'tyaknow?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342
    Chris said:

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
    I've seen some crazy fantasies from right-wing loonies, but making the Confederate States a British Protectorate in order to stymie the USA has to beat them all.
    Talking about fantasies, why should I get bollocked on PB the other day for accurately predicting that the New York Tunnels would have just this boring and humdrum explanation?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/09/brooklyn-synagogue-secret-tunnel-dispute-arrests
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,418
    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    "the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh"

    Truly living the life. And yes, yes I'm sure it's fantastic now with a rooftop pool and any number of cocktails, blah, blah.
    Phnom Penh is fucking brilliant now. One of the most entertaining cities on the planet

    And I’ve been to a few entertaining cities

    It has all the hedonistic languor of Bangkok in about 1990, with the buzz of a young Chinese city in 2003, with the sizzle of Saigon in 2010. And brilliant food. And no one gives a fuck, it is quite lawless. And excellent French wine is possibly cheaper here than in France
    But no Greggs. Forget it.
    Why do people actually like Greggs. I don't get it.
    You are George Osborne AICMFP. Greggs is like McDonalds. Cheap, consistent and reasonably good.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,342

    FPT: Andy_JS linking to an interesting piece in UnHerd reminded me of this practice, about a century ago in the US. Mines (and perhaps some factories) paid men's wages to their wives. Typically, the wife would come down to the mine with his lunch at noon on Saturdays, collect her husband's pay, and give him enough back so he could get drunk that night.

    Most people then thought that it was risky for a miner to have his full week's pay with him, while he was drinking.

    (Here's the UnHerd piece again: https://unherd.com/2024/01/why-women-still-rely-on-richer-men/ )

    Do you have citation for your "paid . . . their wives" factoid? Sounds like bullshit to me.
    I do like the courteous cut and thrust of scholarly debate on PB.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    Chris said:

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
    I've seen some crazy fantasies from right-wing loonies, but making the Confederate States a British Protectorate in order to stymie the USA has to beat them all.
    There was the slight difficulty in that unlike the Union, we had abolished slavery, so not likely to garner enthusiastic support in Dixie!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121
    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    "the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh"

    Truly living the life. And yes, yes I'm sure it's fantastic now with a rooftop pool and any number of cocktails, blah, blah.
    Phnom Penh is fucking brilliant now. One of the most entertaining cities on the planet

    And I’ve been to a few entertaining cities

    It has all the hedonistic languor of Bangkok in about 1990, with the buzz of a young Chinese city in 2003, with the sizzle of Saigon in 2010. And brilliant food. And no one gives a fuck, it is quite lawless. And excellent French wine is possibly cheaper here than in France
    But no Greggs. Forget it.
    Why do people actually like Greggs. I don't get it.
    [Cut to Sunil force-feeding Stocky a bunch of Greggs vegan sausage rolls]
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198

    Look at the crowd of people celebrating San Francisco voting for a Gaza ceasefire resolution:

    https://x.com/lea_suzuki/status/1744885313544352001

    Yuck.

    Also, an irrelevant waste of everyone’s time. It doesn’t really matter whether China, Russia, the UK or France insist on a ceasefire, and we’re in the P5. The idea that anyone can get excited over a vote on what one city has to say in the U.S. seems bonkers to me.

    But then that’s rather the point isn’t it: only the fringe nutters turn up to these things, because only they think they matter. So you end up with “nuclear free Basingstoke” or whatever.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,737

    Posted on the dead thread...
    I don't think many politicians or any party comes out of this PO scandal well. Nor does most of the press, with some exceptions. But for most of the extended period of time this scandal played out - pretty much my entire adult life - the public hasn't cared either. So perhaps you can understand why elected politicians didn't feel the need to involve themselves too deeply.
    I wonder whether the issue of complexity is the problem here. Although on one level the issue is simple - people lied to cover up problems with a product and tried to shift the blame for the problems onto innocent people - the details are quite complex, hard for the public or politicians to cut through especially when the experts can't be trusted. You see similar problems around other complex technical issues - epidemiology, trade with Europe - where politicians either deny responsibility or weaponise the complexity to deliberately misrepresent things.
    I wonder whether the real failure here lies with the House of Lords. Isn't the whole point of the unelected House that it is composed of people with expertise who can dig into complex issues, including ones that the public don't currently care about? Isn't this precisely the kind of issue that an effective HoL would have got stuck into a decade ago? Perhaps I've missed it but I don't think I've seen that kind of activity.

    I do think in one sense this scandal taking so long to play out is a product of the fragmentation of media and showbizification of political coverage.

    It's easy to forget that there has been a lot of reporting on it, including on what are in theory flagship shows - there's been not one, but two, Panoramas.

    But it's never particularly caught fire in part because the public don't usually all watch linear TV of an evening anymore or buy enough papers that one banging on about it cuts through. It was never particularly covered as frontpage or bulletin-leading news in part because it wasn't sexy and was dragged out for so long.

    Yes it had a bit of David v Goliath, but it lacked the usual villains and Westminster soap opera that news websites like to use for clicks. It was also very difficult to understand and with diffuse blame. And didn't play into existing divides and debates.

    That's where the TV drama has an advantage - it can turn it into that - focusing blame and getting to the heart of what was appalling. It also has the advantage of the watercooler - when people see a great drama they recommend it and others watch, knowing that if they're new to the subject and don't understand it, they still might find the drama compelling.

    By 'showbizification' I mean lobby coverage now treats politics like showbiz - it loves tittle-tattle, picks favourites, and often covers what someone's saying on the surface rather than reality. And desperate for endless attention. So The Sun decides to come up with ever more odd reasons to hate Keir Starmer every day (rather than, y'know finding actual news that might be bad for him), while The Guardian and Telegraph tilt at culture war windmills because they believe it's what readers go for and share.

    Which is very bad for situations like this as end up in a vicious circle. It will only get the kind of blanket coverage it needs to break through and force politicians to act when it proves it's of interest to enough people, yet it can't prove that without said blanket coverage.

    So it bobs along on page 50, mid-bulletin on Radio 4, or in specialist publications, with no real pressure other than in the courts, to do something about it.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,034
    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
    I've seen some crazy fantasies from right-wing loonies, but making the Confederate States a British Protectorate in order to stymie the USA has to beat them all.
    Talking about fantasies, why should I get bollocked on PB the other day for accurately predicting that the New York Tunnels would have just this boring and humdrum explanation?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/09/brooklyn-synagogue-secret-tunnel-dispute-arrests
    What were they for in the end? The article doesn’t say.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,193

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    You could experiment with imposing various systems of PR in local elections.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Chris said:

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
    I've seen some crazy fantasies from right-wing loonies, but making the Confederate States a British Protectorate in order to stymie the USA has to beat them all.
    Well, it actually WAS policy of HMG during US Civil War. Led by among others (then) Conservative loony William E. Gladstone.

    Interesting, part of joint Anglo-Franco gambit that included French invasion of Mexico AND British construction & arming of Confederate warships, most notably CSS Alabama and CSS Shenandoah.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127
    Carnyx said:

    Chris said:

    First like Le Royaume-Uni.

    In the US civil war?
    Yes, we will take back control of the United States.

    I would make an excellent Viceroy of America.
    We didn't manage it in the last one, and we had a far better chance then. Arguably if we had offered the confederate states the protection of the British Empire we would have held the United States in permanent check, and been the pre-eminent world power for the 20th century at least.
    I've seen some crazy fantasies from right-wing loonies, but making the Confederate States a British Protectorate in order to stymie the USA has to beat them all.
    Talking about fantasies, why should I get bollocked on PB the other day for accurately predicting that the New York Tunnels would have just this boring and humdrum explanation?

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/09/brooklyn-synagogue-secret-tunnel-dispute-arrests
    They've got to hide their space lasers somewhere!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,418
    After careful consideration, we’ve made the decision to close Telegraph Wine Cellar.

    The Daily Telegraph is getting out of the booze business.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,232
    edited January 10

    Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    "the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh"

    Truly living the life. And yes, yes I'm sure it's fantastic now with a rooftop pool and any number of cocktails, blah, blah.
    Phnom Penh is fucking brilliant now. One of the most entertaining cities on the planet

    And I’ve been to a few entertaining cities

    It has all the hedonistic languor of Bangkok in about 1990, with the buzz of a young Chinese city in 2003, with the sizzle of Saigon in 2010. And brilliant food. And no one gives a fuck, it is quite lawless. And excellent French wine is possibly cheaper here than in France
    But no Greggs. Forget it.
    Why do people actually like Greggs. I don't get it.
    You are George Osborne AICMFP. Greggs is like McDonalds. Cheap, consistent and reasonably good.
    But it's just a slightly seedy chain of bakeries? I went in a Greggs once - the coffee was rank and the meat slice thing OK but greasy. At least McDonalds is a restaurant. I'm clearly missing something.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,710
    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I’m surprised Starmer didn’t go on the Post Office scandal.

    Are you also still surprised that, despite the facts having been in plain sight for more than a decade, everyone’s only worrying about it now?
    Oh it's ridiculous and PB among others has done excellent work covering it. But politics is very reactive and I was surprised that Starmer didn't ask any questions on it. Yes, I know there was the statement this afternoon, but he could have still asked pertinent questions about the big subject.
    If newspapers and PBers want to be even sillier, Hard Man of payouts Starmer merely said he would “look at” Generous Man of the People Sunak’s new legislation that would ensure victims are "swiftly exonerated and compensated by end of year” - Starmer did not say he would vote for the bill or back it. Why the hell wont he just say he will back it, have these victims not suffered enough for Starmer to now start playing House of Commons games and treating their plight as a political football 😈

    The reality is it’s not clear exactly how the mechanics of the Commons overturning hundreds of prosecutions will work. Sunak’s bill mechanism “sign this to say you are innocent, and face legal consequences if you are not” might not even be the better of the available options, whilst the promise of “exoneration and generously paid out by end of year” is, let’s be honest, an election year promise from a government that knows its under pressure today and will be in opposition at the end of the year when the promise comes to the crunch.
    And here's another tanker-train of worms coming up, on exactly the same logic [edit] and "we want some too".

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/10/infected-blood-scandal-victims-families-call-for-action-amid-post-office-injustice
    What about the people like Lee Castleton who was charged £300,000 or thereabouts costs as a result of pleading not guilty?
    I can’t see that being paid back although it ought to be.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,391
    edited January 10

    FPT: Andy_JS linking to an interesting piece in UnHerd reminded me of this practice, about a century ago in the US. Mines (and perhaps some factories) paid men's wages to their wives. Typically, the wife would come down to the mine with his lunch at noon on Saturdays, collect her husband's pay, and give him enough back so he could get drunk that night.

    Most people then thought that it was risky for a miner to have his full week's pay with him, while he was drinking.

    (Here's the UnHerd piece again: https://unherd.com/2024/01/why-women-still-rely-on-richer-men/ )

    Do you have citation for your "paid . . . their wives" factoid? Sounds like bullshit to me.
    I am not @Jim_Miller, but my source is: my grandparents. Or more specifically you gave your paypacket unopened to your wife. The past was a very different place.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,198

    Seattle Times ($) - Alaska Airlines flight at a different altitude could have been ‘catastrophic’

    Several Alaska Airlines Flight 1282 passengers were hurt when a side of the Boeing 737 MAX 9 burst midflight last week — but injuries could have been much worse had circumstances been slightly different, according to local aviation medicine experts.

    The aircraft was about 20 minutes into the flight, headed to Southern California, and had climbed about 16,000 feet when a door plug blew out and left a wide hole in the plane. If the MAX 9 had been at cruising altitude — around 30,000 to 40,000 feet — injuries might have been “catastrophic,” said Dr. William Bensinger, a Seattle aviation medical examiner who’s spent more than 40 years treating and evaluating pilots.

    “The most concerning to me would be if someone was sitting in the seat next to the blowout,” Bensinger said. “Rapid decompression like that would cause air to rush out of the cabin, and if someone were sitting in that chair with their seatbelt off, they would get sucked out of the airplane. … It would have happened so fast you couldn’t react.”

    On Flight 1282, no one was in the seat directly next to the blowout, but a 15-year-old was sitting in the window seat directly ahead of the hole as the air rushed out of the passenger cabin. His mother, sitting in the middle seat next to him, described to The Seattle Times seeing her son’s seat twisting backward toward the hole, his seat headrest ripped off and sucked into the void and her son’s arms jerked upward. . . .

    She held on to her son tightly, hooking her arms beneath his arms and wrapped around his back. It wasn’t until after the flight, she said, that she noticed his clothing had been torn off his upper body.

    The 10,000- to 20,000-foot difference in altitude means a significant difference in air pressure and available oxygen levels, according to Bensinger. At 16,000 feet, air pressure is “about 90% lower” than what people are used to at sea level, and passengers have about half the level of oxygen they’d normally have, he said. At 30,000 feet, even less oxygen is available in the air — and temperatures are much colder.

    Cabins are generally pressurized between 4,000 and 8,000 feet, but if the door had blown out while the plane was at cruise level, people aboard would likely have had less than a minute before losing consciousness, Bensinger said. . . .

    SSI - Boeing, its subcontractor(s) AND the FAA have MUCH explaining to do, to put it most mildly.

    AND so does Alaska Airlines.

    Why? Because they knew the airplane in question had a PROBLEM with pressurization . . . and actually kept it from flying over the Pacific Ocean from West Coast to Hawaii and back . . . yet kept it flying on other routes!

    Note the plane was headed from Portland, Oregon to Ontario, California. Incident occurred shortly after takeoff, when plane was only half way up to normal cruising altitude.

    So IF it had happened say a hour later . . . .

    Blimey. Are we used to always say you could trust a major western airline on safety checks and practices….
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,099
    Carnyx said:

    Posted on the dead thread...
    I don't think many politicians or any party comes out of this PO scandal well. Nor does most of the press, with some exceptions. But for most of the extended period of time this scandal played out - pretty much my entire adult life - the public hasn't cared either. So perhaps you can understand why elected politicians didn't feel the need to involve themselves too deeply.
    I wonder whether the issue of complexity is the problem here. Although on one level the issue is simple - people lied to cover up problems with a product and tried to shift the blame for the problems onto innocent people - the details are quite complex, hard for the public or politicians to cut through especially when the experts can't be trusted. You see similar problems around other complex technical issues - epidemiology, trade with Europe - where politicians either deny responsibility or weaponise the complexity to deliberately misrepresent things.
    I wonder whether the real failure here lies with the House of Lords. Isn't the whole point of the unelected House that it is composed of people with expertise who can dig into complex issues, including ones that the public don't currently care about? Isn't this precisely the kind of issue that an effective HoL would have got stuck into a decade ago? Perhaps I've missed it but I don't think I've seen that kind of activity.

    There was a debate on the adoption of the famous Lee-Enfield rifle, in the House of Lords, around the turn of the 20th Cent.

    It is marvellous to read - former soldiers arguing from the point of view of practicality. Those wanting more accuracy vs reliability. Each listening to each other's arguments, presenting evidence, discussing alternatives. Lots of evident thinking.
    Lots of very serious amateur shooters around then. Had been reading a fascinating book abotu the railway that had to be set up to provide for the numbers coming to Bisley and around the range complex - currently remaindered. One of those superficially nerdy railway books that throws a great deal of light on the social and other history of its time. IIRC the interest of the noble peers comes over in that too.

    https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_National_Rifle_Association_Its_Tramw/S04IEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=bisley+railway#&printsec=frontcover
    Not long after they moved in, my Dad saw a neighbour loading a gun case into his car, so asked him to bring back a rabbit.

    "I am going to Bisley" came the reply...
  • Andy_JS said:

    In case anyone is paying attention, weather forecast for next Monday's caucus night in Iowa is even more brutal than usual.

    Snow, ice and cold are a given . . . but THIS year is predicted to see the coldest night ever in Iowa caucus history, with temperatures not expected to warm up above 0 degrees Fahrenheit, or -18 Celsius.

    For context, previous record low temp on Iowa caucus night was in 2004, when daytime high was 16 F, or -9 C.

    SO one burning - or freezing? - question is, will there be differential turnout from Trump supporters versus backers of the rest of the Republican field?

    AND which candidate(s) may benefit - or not?

    My own guess is that this may NOT be to Trump's advantage.

    Of course, I'm somewhat biased. Seeing as how IF your truly were an Iowa resident, would definitely be attending local GOP caucus, regardless of frostbite risk, to cast my vote AGAINST Trump.

    You could bet on it!

    I'm surprised caucuses haven't been ruled unconstitutional, because they inevitably exclude a lot of people.
    It isn't that surprising in the sense that the US Constitution is silent on party nominating processes (parties weren't a thing and when they did come in it was a while before convention delegates were subject to election).

    The Supreme Court has nonetheless taken on a role based on party nomination being an integral part of the election process (and run at public expense now), and SSI has indicated cases. They do give quite a lot of leeway to varied processes between states, though, and I'd expect a very conservative court to be rather reluctant to move further towards standardising.

    A lot of the pressure to do so isn't really constitutional but public pressure on state and national parties. Caucuses are much less widely used than they were (and steps have been taken to widen participation even when used) not primarily due to constitutional law but the fact punters find them a pain in the arse.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,152
    Ghedebrav said:

    Leon said:

    biggles said:

    Leon said:

    The Knapper’s Gazette has just commissioned me to go America, as it happens. Also Brittany, Colombia, Italy, the French Caribbean, Bangkok, the most expensive hotel in Phnom Penh, and Moldova

    Busy season ahead

    You are in our thoughts. Why don’t you set up a Go Fund Me to pay for a well earned holiday after you have gone through all of that, just so we don’t have to?
    Thanks, it’s dark and lonely work, but someone has to do it. It’s actually quite nice to get some sympathy

    This glut of gigs is making it hard for me to do my one main summer ambition: a trip through the Stans. Uzbek, Kazakh, and onwards. I shall squeeze it in somehow


    Enjoy Turkmenistan, where you will see, er, the world's largest carpet.
    Isn't there also that big hole that's been on fire for decades?
    Leon's not there yet..
This discussion has been closed.