Sunak should be looking for a new Home Secretary – politicalbetting.com

TheKitchenCabinet said:

On topic, I don’t often say this but @tse is right - it is a distasteful joke anyway but he is HS and it is unacceptable.

TBF, Sunak also needs to go - I think he gets challenged in Q1

Not often I get to agree with a TKC posting (with the first part anyway) so leapt to hit the like button.

Happy/Merry Christmas to you & yours!

An anniversary I don’t think we marked yesterday,

Happy December 23rd.

The most important day in American history.

#OTD in 1783 General George #Washington surrendered his commission and set his most important precedent…giving up power
https://twitter.com/craigbrucesmith/status/1738671227726594217

George III called him ‘one of the greatest of all men’ for doing so.

...

Mortimer said:

MattW said:

Just off the phone with a friend who I planned to invite for a meal during the week.

It seems he caught COVID at his own gym's Christmas Party, so he's self-isolating throughout.

He'll be feeling like MUD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ6kJ7GWtv0

Snap! Been doing the same since Tuesday! I think I got it at a Christmas party too.

Incidentally, exact same symptoms (albeit in a slightly milder form) as I had in December 2019. We've pushed Xmas plans back a couple of days...

Unlike me, he didn't qualify for the autumn COVID jab.

I'll be dropping off a Christmas Box tomorrow, but since he's a non-drinking protein guzzling gym owner it was a bit difficult.

So he's getting several of:

A pack of mini "free from" mince pies.
A box of small, expensive chocolates.
A jar of posh fruit conserve.
A mini one man Christmas pud.
A bottle of Rochester Mulled Spiced Berry punch.
And some nuts.

And I'm keeping the bottle of gin.

isam said:

Crass remarks indeed. The kind of thing you hear everyday in a kind of “my missus/mother in law” way, but not really what you expect from senior politicians

What did George Osborne say about Theresa May? Chop her up and put her in his freezer? I was always surprised he didn’t get more stick for it. Alastair Meeks and I argued about it on here at the time, I was surprised that he thought it was fair comment

Why were you surprised? Classic Meeks I'd have said.

Mortimer said:

MattW said:

Just off the phone with a friend who I planned to invite for a meal during the week.

It seems he caught COVID at his own gym's Christmas Party, so he's self-isolating throughout.

He'll be feeling like MUD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ6kJ7GWtv0

Snap! Been doing the same since Tuesday! I think I got it at a Christmas party too.

Incidentally, exact same symptoms (albeit in a slightly milder form) as I had in December 2019. We've pushed Xmas plans back a couple of days...

Get well soon.

I’ve had a couple of Xmases with flu, and it’s not much fun.

Scott_xP said:

...

Ewwww

Nigelb said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

IF you discover that current North Dakota Governor and alleged Republican POTUS hopeful Doug Burgum is getting stuck in to your chimney, sure sign that Santa Claus is on his way!

Do you know WHY???

Leon has lent you some of his psychedelics ?

Er, no - too rich for my blood!

WRT the Home Secretary, in the actual world all sorts of humour is in amazingly bad taste, and while I see everyone's point, it is possible to get too pearl clutchy about it.

As significant as his bad joking, being HS means not that you cannot say anything, but that your judgement is up for consideration every time you say anything apart from the party line in respect of which people you allow it to be said to That it went public means he got it wrong, and that is a serious lack of judgement. In genuine private people say all kinds of things which would get them sacked and execrated.

Nigelb said:

An anniversary I don’t think we marked yesterday,

Happy December 23rd.

The most important day in American history.

#OTD in 1783 General George #Washington surrendered his commission and set his most important precedent…giving up power
https://twitter.com/craigbrucesmith/status/1738671227726594217

George III called him ‘one of the greatest of all men’ for doing so.

Another anniversary is the siege of Bastogne. Next Xmas is the 80th anniversary

algarkirk said:

WRT the Home Secretary, in the actual world all sorts of humour is in amazingly bad taste, and while I see everyone's point, it is possible to get too pearl clutchy about it.

As significant as his bad joking, being HS means not that you cannot say anything, but that your judgement is up for consideration every time you say anything apart from the party line in respect of which people you allow it to be said to That it went public means he got it wrong, and that is a serious lack of judgement. In genuine private people say all kinds of things which would get them sacked and execrated.

I'm slightly of the view that the HS is the person that can say whatever they like. Otherwise who is free to test the boundaries?

I am off to the pub shortly 🍺

Happy Christmas to all PB participants 👍

Nigelb said:

Photo of Swansea police arresting drunk man likened to Renaissance art
Image was taken just after midnight on last Friday before Christmas, also known as Black Eye Friday for its drunken revelry
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/24/photo-of-swansea-police-arresting-drunk-likened-to-renaissance-art

Love the photographer’s comment.
..Born in Greece, Legakis has lived in Wales for 23 years and is still baffled by the British attitude towards alcohol. “I still do not understand it at all. You get people on a Monday saying ‘I can’t wait to get drunk on Friday’. This would never happen in Greece.”

I worked for a year as a temp teacher in the naughties in a Swansea School and the attitude was prevalent in the staff room with most teachers!! If the amount of money spent on alcohol was redirected I suspect most families would be able to tackle the cost of living crisis much more easily. Our local shop in pembs makes most of it's money on alcohol, lottery and cigs/vapes I am sure.

algarkirk said:

WRT the Home Secretary, in the actual world all sorts of humour is in amazingly bad taste, and while I see everyone's point, it is possible to get too pearl clutchy about it.

As significant as his bad joking, being HS means not that you cannot say anything, but that your judgement is up for consideration every time you say anything apart from the party line in respect of which people you allow it to be said to That it went public means he got it wrong, and that is a serious lack of judgement. In genuine private people say all kinds of things which would get them sacked and execrated.

The joke itself (whilst not funny) is sort of self-deprecating really - saying his wife has to be medicated so she doesn't go off and find a better husband. It doesn't make me think of Cleverly as a potential rapist, and I don’t see that it would make 'women feel less secure', though that's for a woman to judge. It does (combined with shithole-gate) make me think that Cleverly can't keep his cakehole shut when he thinks he's making a funny. The very short space between these incidents is concerning.

As a matter of fact, I do see a way forward for Sunak here - sack or demote Cleverly, and bring back Patel. It would make Sunak less vulnerable on his right flank, and would (if he cares) undermine Braverman's leadership ambitions, just as the rise of Braverman has damaged Patel's. Those two have a similar profile and modus operandi, and whilst we should be able to have two or more tough-talking British Asian females in senior cabinet posts, that's not the way it's worked out so far.

AverageNinja said:

Please can you reinstate @Leon.

Note that Eugene V. Debs (my avatar) was released from federal prison on Christmas Day, 1921, following commutation of his sentence for sedition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs

SO perhaps yet another Christmas amnesty is in the works?

Luckyguy1983 said:

algarkirk said:

WRT the Home Secretary, in the actual world all sorts of humour is in amazingly bad taste, and while I see everyone's point, it is possible to get too pearl clutchy about it.

As significant as his bad joking, being HS means not that you cannot say anything, but that your judgement is up for consideration every time you say anything apart from the party line in respect of which people you allow it to be said to That it went public means he got it wrong, and that is a serious lack of judgement. In genuine private people say all kinds of things which would get them sacked and execrated.

The joke itself (whilst not funny) is sort of self-deprecating really - saying his wife has to be medicated so she doesn't go off and find a better husband. It doesn't make me think of Cleverly as a potential rapist, and I don’t see that it would make 'women feel less secure', though that's for a woman to judge. It does (combined with shithole-gate) make me think that Cleverly can't keep his cakehole shut when he thinks he's making a funny. The very short space between these incidents is concerning.

As a matter of fact, I do see a way forward for Sunak here - sack or demote Cleverly, and bring back Patel. It would make Sunak less vulnerable on his right flank, and would (if he cares) undermine Braverman's leadership ambitions, just as the rise of Braverman has damaged Patel's. Those two have a similar profile and modus operandi, and whilst we should be able to have two or more tough-talking British Asian females in senior cabinet posts, that's not the way it's worked out so far.

Patel would either to do a significant volte face on the Wethersfield base or swallow an amount of her words.

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

AverageNinja said:

Please can you reinstate @Leon.

Note that Eugene V. Debs (my avatar) was released from federal prison on Christmas Day, 1921, following commutation of his sentence for sedition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs

SO perhaps yet another Christmas amnesty is in the works?

"It's Christmas...it's the time of miracles" - Snape Hans Gruber

Luckyguy1983 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

viewcode said:

Nigelb said:

An anniversary I don’t think we marked yesterday,

Happy December 23rd.

The most important day in American history.

#OTD in 1783 General George #Washington surrendered his commission and set his most important precedent…giving up power
https://twitter.com/craigbrucesmith/status/1738671227726594217

George III called him ‘one of the greatest of all men’ for doing so.

Another anniversary is the siege of Bastogne. Next Xmas is the 80th anniversary

Until then . . .

I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas - Bing Crosby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIVI4cE9PPo&list=PLu-UhHyzDOW2am8q3BRg3_u4B_TDlngws&index=4

Christmas pub quiz question - No Googling - Name the original film in which Crosby sings 'I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas'.

Holiday Inn.
I caught the tail end of Sound of Music,
we had a slice each of Christmas cake and now we're waiting for Carols from
Kings to start.

It's beginning to feel a lot like Christmas.

viewcode said:

Are we having the usual present tomorrow? Will Santa @MikeSmithson and the elves @TSE and @rcs1000 be bringing us the Xmas Crossword Of Impossibility And Puns?

Sounds like a whiff of burning (2,4).

AverageNinja said:

Please can you reinstate @Leon.

It's not Easter you know

viewcode said:

Are we having the usual present tomorrow? Will Santa @MikeSmithson and the elves @TSE and @rcs1000 be bringing us the Xmas Crossword Of Impossibility And Puns?

Yes, StJohn sent me the PB Christmas crossword a week last Sunday.

If you all denounce Die Hard the idea of it as a Christmas movie now then I shall publish it tomorrow.

Luckyguy1983 said:

isam said:

Crass remarks indeed. The kind of thing you hear everyday in a kind of “my missus/mother in law” way, but not really what you expect from senior politicians

What did George Osborne say about Theresa May? Chop her up and put her in his freezer? I was always surprised he didn’t get more stick for it. Alastair Meeks and I argued about it on here at the time, I was surprised that he thought it was fair comment

Why were you surprised? Classic Meeks I'd have said.

I agreed with him on quite a lot of things actually, and kept in touch a lot away from here. I could never understand though, why he was so outraged about Nigel Farage saying he was ready to "don khaki, pick up a rifle and head for the front lines", an obvious metaphor for returning to politics in 2017 if Brexit was thwarted, yet thought Osborne’s comments perfectly ok. They had to be both wrong or both fine for me, albeit Osborne’s seemed more deranged - you just wouldn’t say it

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

Are we having the usual present tomorrow? Will Santa @MikeSmithson and the elves @TSE and @rcs1000 be bringing us the Xmas Crossword Of Impossibility And Puns?

Yes, StJohn sent me the PB Christmas crossword a week last Sunday.

If you all denounce Die Hard as a Christmas movie now then I shall publish it tomorrow.

I'm really surprised you want us to denounce Die Hard, but even more so that you want us to denounce it by calling it a Christmas movie.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

MoonRabbit said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Ratcliffe buys 25% of Man Utd confirmed and has control of all football operations

But not the purse strings.

Seems on football he has and is investing nearly quarter of a billion of his own money

It is a strange relationship but Glazers giving up control of football matters is good and hopefully the start of the end of their ownership

Maybe, or perhaps the Glazers are shrewd enough to see that if someone else can restore the playing side, there will be even more dollars flowing back across the Atlantic.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

MoonRabbit said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Ratcliffe buys 25% of Man Utd confirmed and has control of all football operations

But not the purse strings.

Seems on football he has and is investing nearly quarter of a billion of his own money

It is a strange relationship but Glazers giving up control of football matters is good and hopefully the start of the end of their ownership

Maybe, or perhaps the Glazers are shrewd enough to see that if someone else can restore the playing side, there will be even more dollars flowing back across the Atlantic.

Possibly but improvement of on field performance is key for everyone

Mind you look at Chelsea who have spent huge sums and are even worse than United

FPT @NickPalmer

Re: StateCos

There is a huge difference between “taking responsibility” and “interfering”

Minister should act like boards/shareholders of nationalised companies and take responsibility for the strategic direction. They will be held accountable by the voters

In practice the “Whitehall knows best” (whether ministers or civil servants) attitude prevails and they micro manage. For example, I think it was water, but one of the utilities suffered chronic underinvestment on state hands because infrastructure capex wasn’t sexy compared to schools and hospitals or pay rises for nurses.

I’ve seen nothing in the last 30 years to suggest that politicians have changed their approach

I’d be more open to other structures (eg mutuals) with the state playing the role of an important stakeholder than straight state ownership.

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

Are we having the usual present tomorrow? Will Santa @MikeSmithson and the elves @TSE and @rcs1000 be bringing us the Xmas Crossword Of Impossibility And Puns?

Yes, StJohn sent me the PB Christmas crossword a week last Sunday.

If you all denounce Die Hard as a Christmas movie now then I shall publish it tomorrow.

Re: "DH" would MUCH rather watch 24-7 webcam of Yule-log burning . . . or Marley's toenail growing . . .

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Nigelb said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

viewcode said:

Nigelb said:

An anniversary I don’t think we marked yesterday,

Happy December 23rd.

The most important day in American history.

#OTD in 1783 General George #Washington surrendered his commission and set his most important precedent…giving up power
https://twitter.com/craigbrucesmith/status/1738671227726594217

George III called him ‘one of the greatest of all men’ for doing so.

Another anniversary is the siege of Bastogne. Next Xmas is the 80th anniversary

Until then . . .

I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas - Bing Crosby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIVI4cE9PPo&list=PLu-UhHyzDOW2am8q3BRg3_u4B_TDlngws&index=4

Christmas pub quiz question - No Googling - Name the original film in which Crosby sings 'I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas'.

I see someone got there first.

This is my favourite Bing Crosby story.

How Bing Crosby Made Silicon Valley Possible
https://www.honest-broker.com/p/how-bing-crosby-made-silicon-valley

For what it's worth (less than 2-cents perhaps) Bing Crosby was a native of Washington State, born in Tacoma, raised in Spokane.

First time I was in WA State, Bing was still the most famous (summer) property owner at Hayden Lake, a resort area just outside of Spokane; 2nd-most (in)famous being the Aryan Nations.

In subsequent decades, the Aryan Nations was booted out of Hayden Lake after losing big court case, while Bing Crosby's reputation took a belly flop following allegations of child abuse by his eldest child.

However, appears that that's increasing forgotten/ignored/unknown by early 21st-centurians.

Personally think we should take the rough AND the smooth in our pseudo-stately stride . . .

Yes, he was a bit of a shit, and his singing isn't my cup of tea - but he was a hugely consequential figure.

isam said:

AverageNinja said:

isam said:

Crass remarks indeed. The kind of thing you hear everyday in a kind of “my missus/mother in law” way, but not really what you expect from senior politicians

What did George Osborne say about Theresa May? Chop her up and put her in his freezer? I was always surprised he didn’t get more stick for it. Alastair Meeks and I argued about it on here at the time, I was surprised that he thought it was fair comment

What a horrible comment.

He was no longer an MP when he made it mind you

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/13/george-osborne-criticised-for-gruesome-remarks-against-theresa-
may

How about the Labour MPs who wanted to hang Esther McVey or the comments that Angela Raynor made about stories?

There is a very unpleasant / immature edge to many of our politicians who don’t understand what is acceptable behaviour

Stuartinromford said:

When was the last "I loused up, and resigning is the most honourable thing I can do" resignation?

Does Matt Hancock count?

Carrington

Big_G_NorthWales said:

He should be sacked for such crass comments, especially as he is Home Secretary, but I doubt he will

Just another example of a government's end days and the only question is whether it will be in May or October

Both traditionally revolutionary months

But holding on to October doesn’t work out well for the incumbents

OldKingCole said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

algarkirk said:

WRT the Home Secretary, in the actual world all sorts of humour is in amazingly bad taste, and while I see everyone's point, it is possible to get too pearl clutchy about it.

As significant as his bad joking, being HS means not that you cannot say anything, but that your judgement is up for consideration every time you say anything apart from the party line in respect of which people you allow it to be said to That it went public means he got it wrong, and that is a serious lack of judgement. In genuine private people say all kinds of things which would get them sacked and execrated.

The joke itself (whilst not funny) is sort of self-deprecating really - saying his wife has to be medicated so she doesn't go off and find a better husband. It doesn't make me think of Cleverly as a potential rapist, and I don’t see that it would make 'women feel less secure', though that's for a woman to judge. It does (combined with shithole-gate) make me think that Cleverly can't keep his cakehole shut when he thinks he's making a funny. The very short space between these incidents is concerning.

As a matter of fact, I do see a way forward for Sunak here - sack or demote Cleverly, and bring back Patel. It would make Sunak less vulnerable on his right flank, and would (if he cares) undermine Braverman's leadership ambitions, just as the rise of Braverman has damaged Patel's. Those two have a similar profile and modus operandi, and whilst we should be able to have two or more tough-talking British Asian females in senior cabinet posts, that's not the way it's worked out so far.

Patel would either to do a significant volte face on the Wethersfield base or swallow an amount of her words.

I suspect that could be papered over OK. I think Patel would love to be a Minister again, for the future leadership prospects.

Happy Christmas to all who are celebrating it today and tomorrow. May the New Year bring peace and justice to more of the world.

-

StillWaters said:

isam said:

AverageNinja said:

isam said:

Crass remarks indeed. The kind of thing you hear everyday in a kind of “my missus/mother in law” way, but not really what you expect from senior politicians

What did George Osborne say about Theresa May? Chop her up and put her in his freezer? I was always surprised he didn’t get more stick for it. Alastair Meeks and I argued about it on here at the time, I was surprised that he thought it was fair comment

What a horrible comment.

He was no longer an MP when he made it mind you

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/13/george-osborne-criticised-for-gruesome-remarks-against-theresa-
may

How about the Labour MPs who wanted to hang Esther McVey or the comments that Angela Raynor made about stories?

There is a very unpleasant / immature edge to many of our politicians who don’t understand what is acceptable behaviour

Don’t think any Labour MPs said such. David Dimbleby had to read out John McDonnell’s denial of the claim by Esther McVey on the 2015 election programme that he had called for her lynching.

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

Are we having the usual present tomorrow? Will Santa @MikeSmithson and the elves @TSE and @rcs1000 be bringing us the Xmas Crossword Of Impossibility And Puns?

Yes, StJohn sent me the PB Christmas crossword a week last Sunday.

If you all denounce Die Hard as a Christmas movie now then I shall publish it tomorrow.

I denounce it as an unrepentant Christmas movie.

As non-Christmas Christmas films go, The Long Kiss Goodnight takes some beating:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Xkb4lyRKQ&pp=ygUXVGhlIGxvbmcga2lzcyBnb29kbmlnaHQ=

Luckyguy1983 said:

Nigelb said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

viewcode said:

Are we having the usual present tomorrow? Will Santa @MikeSmithson and the elves @TSE and @rcs1000 be bringing us the Xmas Crossword Of Impossibility And Puns?

Yes, StJohn sent me the PB Christmas crossword a week last Sunday.

If you all denounce Die Hard as a Christmas movie now then I shall publish it tomorrow.

I denounce it as an unrepentant Christmas movie.

As non-Christmas Christmas films go, The Long Kiss Goodnight takes some beating:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Xkb4lyRKQ&pp=ygUXVGhlIGxvbmcga2lzcyBnb29kbmlnaHQ=

Merry Xmas Mr Lawrence is the best non-Christmas Christmas film by miles.

A little more on that communtation: "Just before Christmas in 1921, [President Warren G.] Harding, a conservative and mild-mannered Republican, commuted the 10-year sentence of the Socialist [Eugene] Debs, who had been convicted of violating the Espionage Act of 1917. On Dec. 26, Harding welcomed Debs to the White House, eager to meet him before he returned to civilian life after being released from federal prison in Atlanta.
. . .
Though most of his advisers and the first lady argued against the commutation, Harding believed that his use of the pardon power would help heal a divided nation after the deadliest war in world history and a flu pandemic that killed at least 675,000 Americans and tens of millions around the globe.
. . .
On the same day he freed Debs, Harding commuted the sentences of 23 other political prisoners, activists and Industrial Workers of the World union members who spoke out against the war."
source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/01/06/warren-harding-eugene-debs/

StillWaters said:

Stuartinromford said:

When was the last "I loused up, and resigning is the most honourable thing I can do" resignation?

Does Matt Hancock count?

Carrington

Did he louse up, or did he inherit the problem? In the Crichel Down case the Minister basically resigned for a civil servant's failings (maladministration of the return of land i n Dorset to the original owners once the war was over).

StillWaters said:

FPT @NickPalmer

Re: StateCos

There is a huge difference between “taking responsibility” and “interfering”

Minister should act like boards/shareholders of nationalised companies and take responsibility for the strategic direction. They will be held accountable by the voters

In practice the “Whitehall knows best” (whether ministers or civil servants) attitude prevails and they micro manage. For example, I think it was water, but one of the utilities suffered chronic underinvestment on state hands because infrastructure capex wasn’t sexy compared to schools and hospitals or pay rises for nurses.

I’ve seen nothing in the last 30 years to suggest that politicians have changed their approach

I’d be more open to other structures (eg mutuals) with the state playing the role of an important stakeholder than straight state ownership.

Turn them into Public Benefit companies with a restructured and much beefed up regulator?

Jim_Miller said:

A little more on that communtation: "Just before Christmas in 1921, [President Warren G.] Harding, a conservative and mild-mannered Republican, commuted the 10-year sentence of the Socialist [Eugene] Debs, who had been convicted of violating the Espionage Act of 1917. On Dec. 26, Harding welcomed Debs to the White House, eager to meet him before he returned to civilian life after being released from federal prison in Atlanta.
. . .
Though most of his advisers and the first lady argued against the commutation, Harding believed that his use of the pardon power would help heal a divided nation after the deadliest war in world history and a flu pandemic that killed at least 675,000 Americans and tens of millions around the globe.
. . .
On the same day he freed Debs, Harding commuted the sentences of 23 other political prisoners, activists and Industrial Workers of the World union members who spoke out against the war."
source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/01/06/warren-harding-eugene-debs/

Gosh.

Hadn't the Communists suffered enough in prison without trying to make sense of Harding's garbled efforts at English?

Carnyx said:

StillWaters said:

Stuartinromford said:

When was the last "I loused up, and resigning is the most honourable thing I can do" resignation?

Does Matt Hancock count?

Carrington

Did he louse up, or did he inherit the problem? In the Crichel Down case the Minister basically resigned for a civil servant's failings (maladministration of the return of land i n Dorset to the original owners once the war was over).

It was more complex than that, because he (Dugdale) knew about and approved the sale of the land despite pretending he hadn't.

AverageNinja said:

Please can you reinstate @Leon.

A Christmas Pardon would be kind of appropriate.

Jim_Miller said:

A little more on that communtation: "Just before Christmas in 1921, [President Warren G.] Harding, a conservative and mild-mannered Republican, commuted the 10-year sentence of the Socialist [Eugene] Debs, who had been convicted of violating the Espionage Act of 1917. On Dec. 26, Harding welcomed Debs to the White House, eager to meet him before he returned to civilian life after being released from federal prison in Atlanta.
. . .
Though most of his advisers and the first lady argued against the commutation, Harding believed that his use of the pardon power would help heal a divided nation after the deadliest war in world history and a flu pandemic that killed at least 675,000 Americans and tens of millions around the globe.
. . .
On the same day he freed Debs, Harding commuted the sentences of 23 other political prisoners, activists and Industrial Workers of the World union members who spoke out against the war."
source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/01/06/warren-harding-eugene-debs/

Until March 1921, biggest roadblock to release of Eugene Debs from durance vile was Woodrow Wilson. Who (sick or sicker) staunchly refused to consider pardoning DVD let alone commuting his sentence.

Whereas WW's own Dept of Justice and his Attorney General Mitchell Palmer (no softy he) were recommending a pardon in final months of his term.

By then, public opinion in USA had shifted sharply from wartime super-patriotism to post-war skepticism and cynicism about the Great War.

One result being epic landslide against Wilsonian Democracy in favor of standpat Republicanism under Warren Harding. Another being increasing public sympathy for Debs and others in his situation.

But especially for Debs, who by the time of WWI was something of an American institution, having been a major labor leader since 1890s, and run three time for President since for the Socialist Party. Along the way, his public persona became fixed: a radical of revolutionary intent and fiery rhetoric with a heart of gold.

Guy who'd give his coat to an old hobo without one in a snowstorm. Who was also highly esteemed by rich capitalists in his own hometown of Terre Haute, Indiana - hardly a hotbed of radicalism then or now. And who made friends with the wardens at every jail and prison where he served time.

Warren Harding was a better president than his contemporaries or latter generations gave/give him credit for being. Certainly one of the plus marks in his ledger - personally, politically and presidentially - was his treatment of and respect for Eugene Victor Debs.

StillWaters said:

FPT @NickPalmer

Re: StateCos

There is a huge difference between “taking responsibility” and “interfering”

Minister should act like boards/shareholders of nationalised companies and take responsibility for the strategic direction. They will be held accountable by the voters

In practice the “Whitehall knows best” (whether ministers or civil servants) attitude prevails and they micro manage. For example, I think it was water, but one of the utilities suffered chronic underinvestment on state hands because infrastructure capex wasn’t sexy compared to schools and hospitals or pay rises for nurses.

I’ve seen nothing in the last 30 years to suggest that politicians have changed their approach

I’d be more open to other structures (eg mutuals) with the state playing the role of an important stakeholder than straight state ownership.

The classic of the genre was a chemical plant, when it was nationalised.

It needed to be replaced with a modern plant and moved to nearer a good port.

This was denounced as insane - spending money to move jobs from a government constituency to an opposition one. And reducing the number of jobs (productivity). And taking more than one parliamentary term.

AverageNinja said:

Please can you reinstate @Leon.

AverageNinja said:

Please can you reinstate @Leon.

Leon is not banned

MarqueeMark said:

Santa on a tricky run between Kyiv and Moscow.


Eek......

Whole area NOT big on celebrating on December 25, as Santa likely already knows.

Something I learned as a little kid, living in area with large number of Eastern Orthodox neighbors.

ydoethur said:

Jim_Miller said:

A little more on that communtation: "Just before Christmas in 1921, [President Warren G.] Harding, a conservative and mild-mannered Republican, commuted the 10-year sentence of the Socialist [Eugene] Debs, who had been convicted of violating the Espionage Act of 1917. On Dec. 26, Harding welcomed Debs to the White House, eager to meet him before he returned to civilian life after being released from federal prison in Atlanta.
. . .
Though most of his advisers and the first lady argued against the commutation, Harding believed that his use of the pardon power would help heal a divided nation after the deadliest war in world history and a flu pandemic that killed at least 675,000 Americans and tens of millions around the globe.
. . .
On the same day he freed Debs, Harding commuted the sentences of 23 other political prisoners, activists and Industrial Workers of the World union members who spoke out against the war."
source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/01/06/warren-harding-eugene-debs/

Gosh.

Hadn't the Communists suffered enough in prison without trying to make sense of Harding's garbled efforts at English?

Harding did far more than his share of bloviation.

However, he also coined "normalcy" which in the past century has gone from being regarded as mangling the English language, to (methinks) a perfectly respectable English word.

Speaking as one of the very few - perhaps only - PBer to have paid my person respects at the Tomb of Warren G. Harding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harding_Tomb

"I DEEM it a privilege to join here in the dedication of the tomb of Warren G. Harding, 29th President of the United States. . . . He gave his life in worthy accomplishment for his country. He was a man of delicate sense of honor, of sympathetic heart, of transcendent gentleness of soul – who reached out for friendship, who gave of it loyally and generously in his every thought and deed. He was a man of passionate patriotism. He was a man of deep religious feeling. He was devoted to his fellow men. . . ." - Herbert Hoover, June 16, 1931

ydoethur said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

ydoethur said:

Jim_Miller said:

A little more on that communtation: "Just before Christmas in 1921, [President Warren G.] Harding, a conservative and mild-mannered Republican, commuted the 10-year sentence of the Socialist [Eugene] Debs, who had been convicted of violating the Espionage Act of 1917. On Dec. 26, Harding welcomed Debs to the White House, eager to meet him before he returned to civilian life after being released from federal prison in Atlanta.
. . .
Though most of his advisers and the first lady argued against the commutation, Harding believed that his use of the pardon power would help heal a divided nation after the deadliest war in world history and a flu pandemic that killed at least 675,000 Americans and tens of millions around the globe.
. . .
On the same day he freed Debs, Harding commuted the sentences of 23 other political prisoners, activists and Industrial Workers of the World union members who spoke out against the war."
source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/01/06/warren-harding-eugene-debs/

Gosh.

Hadn't the Communists suffered enough in prison without trying to make sense of Harding's garbled efforts at English?

Harding did far more than his share of bloviation.

However, he also coined "normalcy" which in the past century has gone from being regarded as mangling the English language, to (methinks) a perfectly respectable English word.

Speaking as one of the very few - perhaps only - PBer to have paid my person respects at the Tomb of Warren G. Harding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harding_Tomb

"I DEEM it a privilege to join here in the dedication of the tomb of Warren G. Harding, 29th President of the United States. . . . He gave his life in worthy accomplishment for his country. He was a man of delicate sense of honor, of sympathetic heart, of transcendent gentleness of soul – who reached out for friendship, who gave of it loyally and generously in his every thought and deed. He was a man of passionate patriotism. He was a man of deep religious feeling. He was devoted to his fellow men. . . ." - Herbert Hoover, June 16, 1931

'He gave his life in service of his country:' wasn't it a heart attack brought on by banging his secretary? Or am I misremembering that bit?

You're misrembering.

He died, it appears, as unintended consequence of visiting Seattle, Washington.

"Harding went to bed early the evening of July 27, 1923, a few hours after giving the speech at the University of Washington. Later that night, he called for his physician Charles E. Sawyer, complaining of pain in the upper abdomen. Sawyer thought that it was a recurrence of stomach upset, but Dr. Joel T. Boone suspected a heart problem. The press was told Harding had experienced an "acute gastrointestinal attack" and his scheduled weekend in Portland was cancelled.

He felt better the next day, as the train rushed to San Francisco, where they arrived the morning of July 29. He insisted on walking from the train to the car, and was then rushed to the Palace Hotel, where he suffered a relapse. Doctors found that not only was his heart causing problems, but also that he had pneumonia, and he was confined to bed rest in his hotel room. Doctors treated him with liquid caffeine and digitalis, and he seemed to improve. Hoover released Harding's foreign policy address advocating membership in the World Court, and the president was pleased that it was favorably received.

By the afternoon of August 2, Harding's condition still seemed to be improving and his doctors allowed him to sit up in bed. At around 7:30 pm that evening, Florence was reading to him "A Calm Review of a Calm Man", a flattering article about him from The Saturday Evening Post; she paused and he told her, "That's good. Go on, read some more."

Those were to be his last words. She resumed reading when, a few seconds later, Harding twisted convulsively and collapsed back in the bed, gasping. Florence Harding immediately called the doctors into the room, but they were unable to revive him with stimulants; Harding was pronounced dead a few minutes later, at the age of 57. Harding's death was initially attributed to a cerebral hemorrhage, as doctors at the time did not generally understand the symptoms of cardiac arrest. Florence Harding did not consent to have the president autopsied."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_G._Harding