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The SNP vs The Lib Dems – politicalbetting.com

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  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030

    nico679 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @benrileysmith
    EXCLUSIVE

    A senior Treasury minister questioned whether wealthy pensioners should get winter fuel payments last month

    John Glen, then Chief Sec, told Cambridge Uni event the money could be better spent on child poverty

    Listen to leaked recording below

    https://t.co/BVemtxGvV9

    Has John Glen been fired yet . That seemed almost to show some humanity . Fancy wanting to spend some money on poor children when you can watch them go hungry whilst you dish the goodies to your core voters !
    Aiui you can get child benefits on up to £100,000 a year, so it is not just the children of the poor. Either we have universal benefits or we don't. The justifications for universality are that it gives the rich a stake in maintaining benefits to the poor, and more mundanely that means testing would cost more than it saved. Whether that is true in the age of computers, I'm not sure.
    Simplest solution is to make it taxable income

    You wouldn’t save as much as means testing but you get 40-45% back and it would be essentially cost free from a financial perspective to implement
    Is it a situation where attempting to shrink the headline size of the state has paradoxically made things worse?

    (The argument against universal benefits always used to be that it was a waste to take money from people and then return it- cheaper and more efficient to just let them keep it in the first place. Now that transferring money is costs next to nothing, that might not be the case any more. And means testing, as well as being expensive, is the oldest andbiggest example of the sort of cliff edges that everyone sane thinks we should be getting out of the tax system.)
    It’s not the money transfer that is wasteful but percolating it through our government bureaucracy
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    Massa has conceded - this must be the first election I've ever seen where we've had a concession before any results are officially released.

    Very efficient of him, though makes him a bit of a spoilsport.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kle4 said:

    Milei looks like the winner.

    image

    I applaud his use of props, so long as he has been seen actually using it, otherwise that's just lame.
    Chain brake is on...
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 835
    edited November 2023
    kle4 said:

    Massa has conceded - this must be the first election I've ever seen where we've had a concession before any results are officially released.

    Very efficient of him, though makes him a bit of a spoilsport.
    Suggests that it isn't close, would expect Milei to have 51% minimum, 80% is counted now - Massa emphasised the vote was clear and transparent.

    I cashed out for a 50% profit which isn't too bad.

    Thinking about the wider situation, not sure to what extent Milei will have a majority in Congress for his agenda.

    All things considered, a pretty strong result for Massa (even if he loses by 10 points or more), given that inflation is 143% and he is the economy minister.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    There ought to be a term for PB Israel ultras who are more ultra than the Israelis themselves.

    There is a term. Genocide supporters but I only put a handful of PB Zionist Ultras and SKS into that category.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    edited November 2023
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    Milei looks like the winner.

    image

    I applaud his use of props, so long as he has been seen actually using it, otherwise that's just lame.
    Chain brake is on...
    I'm not unreasonable, he can do that most of the time, but I expect to see at least a few things sawn though as part of his victory rally else I shall be most disappointed.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,670

    There ought to be a term for PB Israel ultras who are more ultra than the Israelis themselves.

    There is a term. Genocide supporters but I only put a handful of PB Zionist Ultras and SKS into that category.

    Are you ok, hon?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625

    Andy_JS said:

    MoreInCommon poll out of line with most others.

    Lab 41%
    Con 29%
    LD 13%
    Reform 7%
    Green 5%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#National_poll_results

    It's an outlier :lol:
    Unlike the 30 point lead last week!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    ohnotnow said:

    There ought to be a term for PB Israel ultras who are more ultra than the Israelis themselves.

    There is a term. Genocide supporters but I only put a handful of PB Zionist Ultras and SKS into that category.

    Are you ok, hon?
    Yes thanks hope you are too
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826

    ICYMI Jewish ex-service personnel laid a Star of David wreath at the Cenotaph earlier today.

    Service at Cenotaph is held to remember Jewish veterans who fought Nazi fascism in WWII and mark 80th anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12768025/Service-Cenotaph-Jewish-veterans-Nazi-WWII-anniversary-Warsaw-Ghetto-uprising.html

    It is ironic that the Israelis have now killed more Gazan civilians than the Nazis did in thw Warsaw Ghetto break out. It really is time to stop.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    Roger said:

    ICYMI Jewish ex-service personnel laid a Star of David wreath at the Cenotaph earlier today.

    Service at Cenotaph is held to remember Jewish veterans who fought Nazi fascism in WWII and mark 80th anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12768025/Service-Cenotaph-Jewish-veterans-Nazi-WWII-anniversary-Warsaw-Ghetto-uprising.html

    It is ironic that the Israelis have now killed more Gazan civilians than the Nazis did in thw Warsaw Ghetto break out. It really is time to stop.
    SKS says not Rog.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    edited November 2023
    Milei is beating the cursed ratio by quite a lot. Argentinian news is showing 55.9% to 44.1%.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,005
    "Tom Phillips
    @tomphillipsin

    “Everyone’s tired. There’s a sort of suicidal temptation. It’s not that they think Milei will win and everything will improve. It’s that they want everything to go to hell. It’s about scorching the earth and starting from scratch.”

    https://twitter.com/tomphillipsin/status/1713171369456808074
  • Official results finally released (not until 88% counted!)

    Milei 55.9%

    Massa 44.1%
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    edited November 2023
    I was idly checking wikipedia to see if Cameron had selected a peerage title yet (he has - Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton), and I could not help but notice a particular and peculiar edit in the final line of the intro section.

    Previously it said

    Historians and scholars rank Cameron as an average to below-average prime minister.

    Now it says

    In historical rankings of prime ministers of the United Kingdom, academics and journalists have ranked Cameron in the fourth and third quintiles, respectively.

    It's the little differences that matter sometimes. A curious reframing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cameron
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826

    Andy_JS said:

    MoreInCommon poll out of line with most others.

    Lab 41%
    Con 29%
    LD 13%
    Reform 7%
    Green 5%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#National_poll_results

    It's an outlier :lol:
    Starmer committing Hara- Kiri in his defense of Israeli brutality. It wasn't as though his party didn't warn him. If he wants to be PM he has to be less dictatorial.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679
    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It will be interesting to see the size of next week's March against Anti-Semitism in London.

    Will the numbers be as large as in the similar recent Paris march?
    Will any politicians and, if so, from which parties attend?
    Will celebrities concerned by racism be there?
    Who will the attendees be?

    I didn't even know about it.
    https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/national-solidarity-march-against-antisemitism-registration-757934651947
    I am actually thinking of going, if only for five minutes, just to show willing. But I am fucked if I am registering. What the hell is the point of that?
    To have some idea about numbers, perhaps? I have a registration no. but no idea if I need to use it to prove anything.

    I would encourage everyone concerned to attend.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411
    Andy_JS said:

    "Tom Phillips
    @tomphillipsin

    “Everyone’s tired. There’s a sort of suicidal temptation. It’s not that they think Milei will win and everything will improve. It’s that they want everything to go to hell. It’s about scorching the earth and starting from scratch.”

    https://twitter.com/tomphillipsin/status/1713171369456808074

    People on PB don’t seem to understand how fucked Argentina is, economically.

    Try this for size - Argentines are emigrating to Peru to find work.

    Peru, which has worked so very hard to find the stupidest politicians in South America - they are rubbish at stealing money.
  • Good news coming out of Argentina.

    Hopefully Milei can be a genuine reformist and not a self-aggrandising narcissist like Trump.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,005

    Andy_JS said:

    "Tom Phillips
    @tomphillipsin

    “Everyone’s tired. There’s a sort of suicidal temptation. It’s not that they think Milei will win and everything will improve. It’s that they want everything to go to hell. It’s about scorching the earth and starting from scratch.”

    https://twitter.com/tomphillipsin/status/1713171369456808074

    People on PB don’t seem to understand how fucked Argentina is, economically.

    Try this for size - Argentines are emigrating to Peru to find work.

    Peru, which has worked so very hard to find the stupidest politicians in South America - they are rubbish at stealing money.
    Argentina was the 10th wealthiest country in the world in 1913.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Argentina
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,826

    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It will be interesting to see the size of next week's March against Anti-Semitism in London.

    Will the numbers be as large as in the similar recent Paris march?
    Will any politicians and, if so, from which parties attend?
    Will celebrities concerned by racism be there?
    Who will the attendees be?

    I didn't even know about it.
    https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/national-solidarity-march-against-antisemitism-registration-757934651947
    I am actually thinking of going, if only for five minutes, just to show willing. But I am fucked if I am registering. What the hell is the point of that?
    To have some idea about numbers, perhaps? I have a registration no. but no idea if I need to use it to prove anything.

    I would encourage everyone concerned to attend.
    It's damned stupid. Choose a time when it doesn't look like you are marching for Netanyahu.
  • HYUFD said:

    Milei now into 1.06, Atlas Intel pollster projects a victory for him with 52.5%.

    Some good news for the Vatican if true, Milei is anti abortion even if his comments about the Pope have been less than complimentary
    I have heard Milei described as "libertarian" which doesn't really fit with being anti-abortion.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    edited November 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Milei now into 1.06, Atlas Intel pollster projects a victory for him with 52.5%.

    Some good news for the Vatican if true, Milei is anti abortion even if his comments about the Pope have been less than complimentary
    I have heard Milei described as "libertarian" which doesn't really fit with being anti-abortion.
    Most self proclaimed libertarians are just in favour of different restrictions on individual liberty than some mainstream politicians, sometimes even more restrictions.

    Classical liberal is often pretty dicey as a self descriptor too.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Milei now into 1.06, Atlas Intel pollster projects a victory for him with 52.5%.

    Some good news for the Vatican if true, Milei is anti abortion even if his comments about the Pope have been less than complimentary
    I have heard Milei described as "libertarian" which doesn't really fit with being anti-abortion.
    Most self proclaimed libertarians are just in favour of different restrictions on individual liberty than some mainstream politicians, sometimes even more restrictions.

    Classical liberal is often pretty dicey as a self descriptor too.
    Oi! I call myself a Gladstonian liberal.

    But then I would be a brutal dictator who put to death anyone doing up their top button without a tie or wearing shoes with no socks.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411
    A
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Tom Phillips
    @tomphillipsin

    “Everyone’s tired. There’s a sort of suicidal temptation. It’s not that they think Milei will win and everything will improve. It’s that they want everything to go to hell. It’s about scorching the earth and starting from scratch.”

    https://twitter.com/tomphillipsin/status/1713171369456808074

    People on PB don’t seem to understand how fucked Argentina is, economically.

    Try this for size - Argentines are emigrating to Peru to find work.

    Peru, which has worked so very hard to find the stupidest politicians in South America - they are rubbish at stealing money.
    Argentina was the 10th wealthiest country in the world in 1913.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Argentina
    Yup. Shows just how much ruin there is in a country.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,362

    Good news coming out of Argentina.

    Hopefully Milei can be a genuine reformist and not a self-aggrandising narcissist like Trump.

    The guy waving a chainsaw about?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646
    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Milei now into 1.06, Atlas Intel pollster projects a victory for him with 52.5%.

    Some good news for the Vatican if true, Milei is anti abortion even if his comments about the Pope have been less than complimentary
    I have heard Milei described as "libertarian" which doesn't really fit with being anti-abortion.
    Most self proclaimed libertarians are just in favour of different restrictions on individual liberty than some mainstream politicians, sometimes even more restrictions.

    Classical liberal is often pretty dicey as a self descriptor too.
    Oi! I call myself a Gladstonian liberal.

    But then I would be a brutal dictator who put to death anyone doing up their top button without a tie or wearing shoes with no socks.
    Please run for office. :)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411
    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Milei now into 1.06, Atlas Intel pollster projects a victory for him with 52.5%.

    Some good news for the Vatican if true, Milei is anti abortion even if his comments about the Pope have been less than complimentary
    I have heard Milei described as "libertarian" which doesn't really fit with being anti-abortion.
    Most self proclaimed libertarians are just in favour of different restrictions on individual liberty than some mainstream politicians, sometimes even more restrictions.

    Classical liberal is often pretty dicey as a self descriptor too.
    Oi! I call myself a Gladstonian liberal.

    But then I would be a brutal dictator who put to death anyone doing up their top button without a tie or wearing shoes with no socks.
    As another Gladstonian Liberal, I’m not sure I can get behind your milk-and-water policies on the Sartorial Plague.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,005
    It looks like only 3 provinces in Argentina voted for Massa.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843

    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Milei now into 1.06, Atlas Intel pollster projects a victory for him with 52.5%.

    Some good news for the Vatican if true, Milei is anti abortion even if his comments about the Pope have been less than complimentary
    I have heard Milei described as "libertarian" which doesn't really fit with being anti-abortion.
    Most self proclaimed libertarians are just in favour of different restrictions on individual liberty than some mainstream politicians, sometimes even more restrictions.

    Classical liberal is often pretty dicey as a self descriptor too.
    Oi! I call myself a Gladstonian liberal.

    But then I would be a brutal dictator who put to death anyone doing up their top button without a tie or wearing shoes with no socks.
    As another Gladstonian Liberal, I’m not sure I can get behind your milk-and-water policies on the Sartorial Plague.
    A fair challenge. Do we still have the equipment in the Tower for someone to be hanged, drawn, and quartered?
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843
    Andy_JS said:

    It looks like only 3 provinces in Argentina voted for Massa.

    Would they, by any chance, include the capital and the most urban areas?
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 835
    edited November 2023
    biggles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It looks like only 3 provinces in Argentina voted for Massa.

    Would they, by any chance, include the capital and the most urban areas?
    No Milei won the capital comfortably, plus massive wins in Cordoba and Mendoza provinces (70%+) and 60% plus in Santa Fe.

    Massa had a narrow win in Buenos Aires province, plus Santiago del Estero and Formosa, while Milei was only about 1000 votes ahead in Chaco.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-argentina-election/
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,005

    biggles said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It looks like only 3 provinces in Argentina voted for Massa.

    Would they, by any chance, include the capital and the most urban areas?
    No Milei won the capital comfortably, plus massive wins in Cordoba and Mendoza provinces (70%+) and 60% plus in Santa Fe.

    Massa had a narrow win in Buenos Aires province, plus Santiago del Estero and Formosa.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-argentina-election/
    Are the poorest areas of the capital outside the city boundaries? The results might suggest so.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,646
    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Milei now into 1.06, Atlas Intel pollster projects a victory for him with 52.5%.

    Some good news for the Vatican if true, Milei is anti abortion even if his comments about the Pope have been less than complimentary
    I have heard Milei described as "libertarian" which doesn't really fit with being anti-abortion.
    Most self proclaimed libertarians are just in favour of different restrictions on individual liberty than some mainstream politicians, sometimes even more restrictions.

    Classical liberal is often pretty dicey as a self descriptor too.
    Oi! I call myself a Gladstonian liberal.

    But then I would be a brutal dictator who put to death anyone doing up their top button without a tie or wearing shoes with no socks.
    As another Gladstonian Liberal, I’m not sure I can get behind your milk-and-water policies on the Sartorial Plague.
    A fair challenge. Do we still have the equipment in the Tower for someone to be hanged, drawn, and quartered?
    (Narrator: in a little-known fact the Tower of London can still be legally used as a prison)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,005
    No-one did cold menace like Joss Ackland. RIP.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    It’s important to note that Javier Milei has a startling resemblance to a young Bernard Manning
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Andy_JS said:

    No-one did cold menace like Joss Ackland. RIP.

    Indeed. RIP.

    Joss Ackland starred in one of my favourite TV plays, but sadly one I haven't seen in years. It's called 'First and Last', and is about a retired man who suddenly decides to walk from Land's End to John O'Groats. Sometimes a star's less-well known works really strike a chord.

    I've no idea why someone going on a mad walk appeals to me..
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    Wtaf is going on at OpenAI?


    “OpenAI Board Stands by Decision to Force Sam Altman Out of C.E.O. Role
    After 48 hours of furious negotiations, the A.I. company said Mr. Altman would not return to his job and that former Twitch C.EO. Emmett Shear would be its interim boss.”

    (NYT)

    More boring rumours say it is a clash of commercial options, with various side hustles causing rancour

    Much more interesting rumours say this is related to the imminent inception of AGI. Or it is here already and they are all panicking - what to do, how to handle it

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Leon said:

    Wtaf is going on at OpenAI?


    “OpenAI Board Stands by Decision to Force Sam Altman Out of C.E.O. Role
    After 48 hours of furious negotiations, the A.I. company said Mr. Altman would not return to his job and that former Twitch C.EO. Emmett Shear would be its interim boss.”

    (NYT)

    More boring rumours say it is a clash of commercial options, with various side hustles causing rancour

    Much more interesting rumours say this is related to the imminent inception of AGI. Or it is here already and they are all panicking - what to do, how to handle it

    Yawn. :)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    ohnotnow said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    On Indy I think the change is not the support for YES, but the sense of it as an urgent necessity rather than a vague but pleasing aspiration

    For a long time the Nats - brilliantly - kept dangling the YES Indy carrot like the donkey electorate was gonna eat it any moment. Now the donkey realises the carrot was a hologram, and any nice food is a long way down the road

    Sure, the donkey would still LIKE a juicy carrot, but the donkey has accepted that there are now more pressing needs, like eating some grass, getting down the road, maybe humping a sexy jackass in the next village

    So 45% support for YES no longer translates into anything like 45 points for the SNP, coz the SNP don’t have any fake carrots left, and the new SNP are also really quite shit, and resented for the whole carrot thing, and because donkey is bored of carrying them

    I reckon the Nats are more likely to go under 30 seats than stay over, so the LDs are probably, rightly, modest favorites in this market

    The 2014 referendum was not a hologram and nor was the demand for another one after the Brexit-fuelled Holyrood victory of the SNP on that specific platform.

    Suspect your analogy comes mainly from a desire to present Sindy supporting Scottish people as donkies.
    What? Of course 2014 was not a hologram. My point is that AFTER that vote the idea of an imminent new vote became increasingly fantastical, in reality, yet the SNP managed to persuade everyone, and keep persuading them, that Sindyref2 was just a few inches away. One more heave

    That illusion is shattered. Stop being stupid. You’re already quite boring. Stupid AS WELL would make you unreadable
    But you didn't say that. You just said they've been dangling their carrots "for a long time". If by this you specifically meant since 2014 well ok (ish) but how would we be expected to guess that?

    After all you used to bang on about 2014 being very recent. So recent that it would be absurd to even think about another referendum despite it being voted for!

    See? Hoist again, I'm afraid. Bamboozled by Kuntibula the Logic Monster.
    Also given that we are being held hostage , it would not matter if SNP got ZERO votes , we would still have to do something else.
    Like what though? It's hard to see a Sindy route which doesn't go via another referendum - and that's in the gift of Westminster.
    Not if you look at it on the union treaty rather than some English later confection in English Law.
    That would require UDI, which Westminster, the successor to the 1707 English and Scottish Parliaments, wouldn't grant either
    Holyrood is the successor to the 1707 Scottish Parliament. Look at th eproceedings of the first session of that then emphatically Unionist body.
    The first Speaker was a Nat!

    And talking bollocks. The Estates of Scotland, to give them their correct name, were a different beast from the Scottish Parliament, and they were not prorogued, they were abolished.
    Surely the first speaker was David Steel.
    The first speaker was Winnie Ewing. (Although she was acting as speaker to oversee the oaths and Steel's election.)

    And a lot of rubbish she spoke.

    I blame autocorrect for the random capitalisation.
    so says one of our colonial masters
    I had no idea ydoethur had risen so high!
    Borderline Illuminati by the looks of things. It's like the Immortal ydoethur vs Salmond. There can be only one.
    We Welsh are just awesome. We’ve taken over England and Scotland and only Malc has noticed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    Endillion said:

    ydoethur said:

    Endillion said:

    biggles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    algarkirk said:

    The problem, we are told, with a “ceasefire”, is that it denies Israel’s right to defend itself.

    But after several weeks of bombing, all Israel has managed to do is kill ~10,000 Palestinians, of which many will be children.

    How many hostages have they recovered?
    How are Israel’s military aims distinguishable from simply expelling Palestinians from Gaza outright?

    Israel has lost Gen Z opinion, to the extent that’s important, and is losing the support of the reasonable minded in the West.

    Those middling people, who want to support good people on all sides, the state of Israel's right to exist without the threat of massacre or holocaust and the Palestinian's right to an autonomous state struggle with these questions, and find few answers from polemics of any sort:

    What is the best policy for supporting peace loving people on all sides

    How should Israel have responded instead if you oppose what they are doing

    What is the best policy for Palestinians who do want their autonomy and also recognise Israel's rights.
    My personal policy is that Israel must simultaneously make diplomatic overtures in support of a two-state solution, while focusing its military ambitions on recovery of its hostages, a blockade of Gaza, and surgical destruction of Hamas capability.

    Palestinian supporters must call for the immediate release of hostages, condemn Hamas, and call for the resumption of democracy in Gaza.

    Of course, I am a centrist dad, so these things are not going to happen. I agree it’s a bugger’s muddle, which is why by the way I kind of refuse to condemn those calling at present for a ceasefire.
    Two ways of solving problems.

    One is to have a map from here to the destination. The other is to have a vague idea of where the destination is, but basically look in front of you and do what seems to be the best choice of the immediate options available, then pause and reorientate and repeat.

    I've been musing on it in the context of sixth formers failing to do physics questions, but it's probably true more widely. It's usually best to have an advance plan all the way to the destination, but what do we do when that plan doesn't exist? We bumble, wander, try low-cost bets to see what happens. And usually, that gets us somewhere OK.

    So, right now, the realistic choices for Israel are to continue their current actions, or in some sense to pause or turn down their intensity, or to go in harder.

    Which of those is really going to give them the best odds of achieving what they want? Not sure that it's their current path. One of the criteria for a just war is that it has a reasonable chance of success.
    We know what Hamas's ideal destination is: no Israel.
    And for many on the Israeli Right, the ideal destination is no Arabs anywhere in Israel proper OR the Territories.
    'many' = 'a tiny few'
    If he'd said 'many on the Israeli right want to incorporate the West Bank into Israel and make Gaza uninhabitable,' however, he wouldn't have been far wrong.

    We may be watching it happen over the next few months.
    At some stage, I wonder if we need to stop giving Likud the cover of being called “on the right” as if they are a mainstream western party. “Hardline nationalist” seems fair.
    Likud are the direct descendants of Irgun, the terrorist organisation behind the bombing of the King David Hotel. Ancient history of course, but in 2006 Netanyahu described it as a “legitimate act”.

    Israel has basically been a Likud-run state for 20 years.
    PR's wonderful, isn't it?

    Your post is more or less correct, of course, but that 20 year period does include Likud co-founder Ariel Sharon's complete disengagement from Gaza in 2005 - a move that cost him and his party a huge amount, politically and personally.

    Sharon staked his reputation on the Gaza disengagement being a huge step towards long term peace, on the basis that it would be that much harder for Hamas and the other terror groups in Gaza to recruit, if there was no obvious enemy to fight against, and if Israel was seen to be providing water, jobs and other economic resources to the Strip. That theory has now been tested to destruction and been found severely wanting.
    Sharon was very brave to support Gaza disengagement.

    But let’s remember Sharon’s long career, including his responsibility for various civilian massacres when commanding Unit 101 for the IDF, and his championing of Israeli settlement in the West Bank.

    The problem with this whole situation is that very much, both sides are shits.

    My sympathies are with the Israeli left, and the even smaller number of Palestinians democrats.
    I think it is worth remembering Sharon was playing a very deep game in Gaza. It wasn't just, or even especially, that it would be a long step towards peace. It was to make annexing the West Bank (which is what he really wanted) easier by dividing the Palestinian Territories.

    Even as he ordered the settlers out of Gaza, he was authorising more settlements in the West Bank.
    I'm sorry, but that is complete bollocks. Almost no-one in Israel supports West Bank annexation - and certainly the Right do not - because the demographic implications lead long term to the destruction of the state of Israel. Netanyahu's goal in supporting settler movements is to create enough facts on the ground to render the negotiations required for a two state solution functionally impossible, and hence force the international community to come up with a plan that might actually work.

    Which, in practice, probably means the Arab world stepping up and offering resettlement for those in the West Bank refugee camps.
    I've been to both, and that's not what they tell me.

    Edit - as for your last two sentences, they're contradictory to the point of being completely nonsensical. You're saying the solution is to remove the Palestinians and then somehow that will mean Israel won't annex the West Bank because...reasons?
    Remove just the refugee camps, not the pre-existing towns and cities.
    Immediately that tells me you have never been to the West Bank...
    Not sure if your point is about the relative lack of a practical distinction, or that removing the one but not the other changes neither the facts on the ground nor the political climate - both of which I would agree with - but there is an important legal distinction to be made between the two, and a useful precedent that can be set.
    If you think there is ‘an important practical distinction’ to be made between refugee camps - most of which have been there since 1948 - and pre-existing settlements, all of which surged in population in 1948, you still don’t understand the West Bank.
  • NEW THREAD

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    edited November 2023
    Incidentally to build on our discussion yesterday:

    Ofsted 'seen as toxic' and schools should 'self-evaluate' instead, says inquiry
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-67449711

    First off, its premise is right but I think its conclusions miss the point. OFSTED is toxic and has to go. Pre-written reports by safeguarding risks based on a series of foolish tick boxes are as useless as Susan Acland-Hood, and certainly militate against good education.

    However, self-evaluation would mean very often no evaluation. Everybody should have a second check. There are ways that could be done constructively rather than punitively, as at present, but it should happen.

    Second, they overlook the issues in Ofsted's structure, which is careless. I suspect it's because the person chairing the report was responsible as Schools Minister for adding to its remit with such catastrophic results.

    However, we then come back to the significance of this. Lord Knight is a Labour peer and has shared platforms with Keir Starmer in the past. He's also a senior figure at the TES and a Fellow of the Institute for Education. He is very well-connected and if he's calling for OFSTED to be fundamentally reformed it suggests its days are numbered.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,652
    kle4 said:

    I was idly checking wikipedia to see if Cameron had selected a peerage title yet (he has - Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton), and I could not help but notice a particular and peculiar edit in the final line of the intro section.

    Previously it said

    Historians and scholars rank Cameron as an average to below-average prime minister.

    Now it says

    In historical rankings of prime ministers of the United Kingdom, academics and journalists have ranked Cameron in the fourth and third quintiles, respectively.

    It's the little differences that matter sometimes. A curious reframing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cameron

    Historians and scholars. Who gives a fuck. The Cameron led Coalition was one of the best of modern times given there was no money left after McDoom and his cronies had fucked everything up.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,052
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    Perhaps TSE can tell us how to interpret this ?

    Trump in Iowa: I Do Not Like ‘Golden Showers’ from Prostitutes —

    Gross and depraved speech by Trump raises more red flags 🚩

    Speaking at a small high school gymnasium in Fort Dodge, Iowa on Saturday, Trump told his supporters what he feels about being urinated on by prostitutes. To be precise, Trump told those who attended that he doesn’t like “golden showers” from “hookers” because he is a “germaphobe.”..

    https://twitter.com/meiselasb/status/1726118250449412486

    Is urine not basically sterile?
    One of those, "don't believe until officially denied" things... anyway the Russian kompromat video will confirm anyway, if rumour, and Steele, speaks true.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It will be interesting to see the size of next week's March against Anti-Semitism in London.

    Will the numbers be as large as in the similar recent Paris march?
    Will any politicians and, if so, from which parties attend?
    Will celebrities concerned by racism be there?
    Who will the attendees be?

    I didn't even know about it.
    https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/national-solidarity-march-against-antisemitism-registration-757934651947
    I am actually thinking of going, if only for five minutes, just to show willing. But I am fucked if I am registering. What the hell is the point of that?
    You don't have to register to go. But presumably it's so that they have some idea of numbers, to give you updates on the route and similar. I dunno.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557

    Leon said:

    Wtaf is going on at OpenAI?


    “OpenAI Board Stands by Decision to Force Sam Altman Out of C.E.O. Role
    After 48 hours of furious negotiations, the A.I. company said Mr. Altman would not return to his job and that former Twitch C.EO. Emmett Shear would be its interim boss.”

    (NYT)

    More boring rumours say it is a clash of commercial options, with various side hustles causing rancour

    Much more interesting rumours say this is related to the imminent inception of AGI. Or it is here already and they are all panicking - what to do, how to handle it

    Yawn. :)
    Yawn? Lol
This discussion has been closed.