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A reminder. The Tory Party is the party of law and order – politicalbetting.com

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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    Cyclefree said:

    1. The possible impact on the US Presidential election. There are American hostages being held by Hamas. The US paid money to Iran recently in return for hostages. What impact might both of these facts have?

    Biden could end up going down as Jimmy Carter Mk 2.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,163

    Fake Gaza news floods Twitter as Musk loses grip on reality
    Bastion of online free speech struggles to contain disinformation amid severe staff cuts

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/11/fake-gaza-news-twitter-elon-musk-loses-grip-reality/ (£££)

    Why should Twitter 'contain' 'misinformation'? Censorship is not going to make everyone less misinformed - if anything it adds credence to the misinformation. People should accept there's a lot of bollocks on social media and use their common sense.
    Twitter has turned to shit under Elon, as a direct result of his mismanagement and alt-right fetish.

    There was always bollocks on Twitter but the noise:signal ratio has deteriorated rapidly.
    I can't say I've ever been attracted to the medium, despite using it professionally at times.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    algarkirk said:

    kyf_100 said:

    On topic, an interesting question would be whether or not prison building has kept up with the rise in the population over the last 20 years. We know that the building of homes, hospitals, schools, motorways, train lines, etc, hasn't kept pace with the population increase, so I thought it'd be interesting to get the numbers for prison capacity.

    The only dataset I can find starts in Jun 2011 and goes to Jun 2022, for "prison operational capacity" here - https://data.justice.gov.uk/prisons/offender-management#prison-opcap

    Prison Capacity, June 2011: 87,902.
    Prison Capacity, Jun, 2022: 82,857.

    UK Population, 2011: 63.26m
    UK Population, 2022: 67.50m

    So prison capacity has fallen by 5.7% during an 11 year period in which population has increased by 6.7%.

    A reminder that "build, build, build" doesn't just apply to houses, it applies to absolutely everything else.

    We are now years past the 'Prison Works' doctrine of Michael Howard. The proper conservative position is that, by now, the 'Prison Works' doctrine would be so effective that there would be far fewer prisoners because far fewer serious crimes are being committed.

    What the public actually want is fewer in prison because policing, prosecution, sentencing and rehabilitation has for years already been so effective that crime isn't a big issue.

    Are we nearly there yet? Asking for a friend.
    Prison takes dangerous people out of circulation. To that extent it works. But, it doesn't make them better people.
  • TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    Can't really disagree with you there.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,407
    pigeon said:

    Been away for a while, mostly due to a bereavement but have also been paying a good deal less attention to the constant diet of appalling news just lately - which is probably no bad thing.

    One hugely encouraging report tonight though: Starmer committing in unambiguous language to giving the Nimbies a bloody good kicking. If the rhetoric is ultimately backed by solid commitments in the manifesto then I might actually have to turn out and vote Labour, despite my deep cynicism that it makes any real difference to anything at all.

    It’s a good job Sir Keir Starmer is absolutely against NIMBYs. Imagine if this NIMbY had been elected Labour leader.

    https://www.camdennewjournal.co.uk/article/hs2vote?sp=19&sq=HS2
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843
    MikeL said:

    Lab needs 19% swing to win Mid Beds.

    Mid Beds isn't within the definition of the Blue Wall (as Con maj is too big) but even so it's in same part of country and must overall have quite similar characteristics.

    So if swing is "only" 12.5% in Blue Wall, can Lab get 19% swing in Mid Beds?

    I guess you would expect a higher swing due to the fact it's a by-election and also the Dorries factor. But even so it looks quite a tall order.

    There’s a Tory splitter independent taking “not Nadine” votes in the biggest town (ones the LibDems might usually have got). He will eat into the Tory vote. Not clear if that plus Labour/LibDem switchers is enough for a Labour win.
  • MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    I learnt something new about the USA this afternoon.

    Flag Retirement Drop Boxes:
    https://hiltonheadislandsc.gov/firerescue/flagbox.cfm

    It may sound silly, but I think that's one of the 1,001 little ways that civilised nations behave. Life doesn't have to be a war of all against all accompanied by screaming.
    US flags only, mind.

    They're very fussy. No-one here thinks anything of UJ knickers, but (certainly in the C20) Old Glory underwear was very much frowned on over there.
    I think it more tells us about the focus of a culture. We roughly have the symbolic role of the King for that, and worry less about flags.

    Consider the similar US oath of enlistment - swearing allegiance to the Constitution:

    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
    Or standing, hand over heart at the beginning of the school day, facing the flag in the corner and reciting:

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all"

    It's like a religious thing to them.
    Do non-Usonians get an opt-out of that?

    Say if a British or French or Japanese child is at a school in the USA?
    When we were on a school exchange to Virginia back in 1980 we were exempted from the oath. I suspect it depends on the school.
  • I'm going balls deep on Fiji to win on Sunday.

    England’s pool-stage hero George Ford is to be dropped from the team to face Fiji in their Rugby World Cup quarter-final on Sunday with Owen Farrell preferred at fly-half and Marcus Smith expected to start at full-back.

    In the boldest selection call of his career as a head coach, Steve Borthwick has axed Ford, who was man of the match in the opening two victories against Argentina and Japan, from his starting XV, while giving the reins to his captain Farrell and handing Smith just his second senior start at full-back.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/10/11/george-ford-dropped-england-rugby-world-cup-quarter-final/
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,250

    Cyclefree said:

    1. The possible impact on the US Presidential election. There are American hostages being held by Hamas. The US paid money to Iran recently in return for hostages. What impact might both of these facts have?

    Biden could end up going down as Jimmy Carter Mk 2.
    Quite feasibly.
    I am surprised by his unfavourables. But it seems to come down to “economy, stupid”, which despite showing a puissance that Europe would kill for, doesn’t “feel” strong.

    There’s a disconnect between the economic stats and the daily pain of inflated food prices and job insecurity.
    It’s possible too that the Biden boom has largely been experienced at the very bottom of the income ladder - ie people already voting Democratic - whereas middle income swing voters haven’t really felt it.
  • kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Crossover in the Blue Wall

    SKS Party Conference unbounce

    SKS Fans please explain

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Largest lead for the Conservatives since we started our Blue Wall tracker last October.

    Blue Wall VI (7 October):

    Conservative 36% (+5)
    Labour 32% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (-2)
    Green 3% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 10 September

    This represents a 12.5% Con to Lab swing since the general election.

    Labour finished third in these seats in 2019 under your boy Corbyn.
    Whats the swing since 2017?

    Nobody cares, because Theresa May won. And we have had a defining election since.
    I know Centrists would like to pretend 2017 never happened but it did and when you say Theresa May won she went into the Election with a Majority and came out of it without one.

    Biggest increase in Lab vote share since WW2
    I know Corbyn fans like to pretend 2019 never happened but it did. Boris Johnson went into the election without a majority and came away with a big one.

    Equal biggest drop in the opposition's seat number since WW2: Labour or Conservative.

    Edit to add: the 60 drop in Labour's seat total is tied with Michael Foot in 1983.
    I will never understand, even if I live to 150, why the 2017 election is so lionised.

    Expectations were exceeded, but the party still lost. So there are high points to draw on, but it obviously was not enough, and was followed by bigger failure.

    I don't think anyone has an issue recognising that 2017 happened (despite that being the confusing accusation), and against what people thought would happen represented a good result for Corbyn. But what good does it do to endlessly celebrate an increase in the vote that did not get them over the line as if that is all you need? If Sunak leads the Tories to hold onto largest party status but not enough to stay in power will his supporters bang on about that forevermore?
    If Labour had done as badly as expected in 2017 May would have remained PM and the Brexit result may have been less bad. We probably wouldn't have had Boris or Truss.
    So, probably a bad thing that they did better than expected.
    And, why did that happen? Because people didn't want the Tories to get their predicted landslide - not because they liked Corbyn's policies.
    CCHQ begs to differ which is why in 2019, Boris took the popular parts of Corbyn's 2017 platform.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,903

    kinabalu said:

    Crossover in the Blue Wall

    SKS Party Conference unbounce

    SKS Fans please explain

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Largest lead for the Conservatives since we started our Blue Wall tracker last October.

    Blue Wall VI (7 October):

    Conservative 36% (+5)
    Labour 32% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (-2)
    Green 3% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 10 September

    This represents a 12.5% Con to Lab swing since the general election.

    Labour finished third in these seats in 2019 under your boy Corbyn.
    Whats the swing since 2017?

    Nobody cares, because Theresa May won. And we have had a defining election since.
    I know Centrists would like to pretend 2017 never happened but it did and when you say Theresa May won she went into the Election with a Majority and came out of it without one.

    Biggest increase in Lab vote share since WW2
    Yep. 17 was a great result no question. Caused me to join up. Hope renewed. Felt like a win. Kind of was a win. Churlish of people to deny it. But then came the horror of 19. That can't be denied either. Time for a change. Enter SKS. And hasn't he just nailed it. Lucky, yes, but you can only beat what's in front of you, and boy is he ever doing that. Landslide coming.

    I'm on board bettingwise, as a party member, as a voter, and (most importantly) as a citizen. I have just this minute ordered my Sparkle With Starmer tee shirt from the club shop. I suggest you put your debilitating grudge aside and do the same. If you give me your size and colour I'd be happy to put it on my account.
    I haven't been a member since Milliband. Previously I had been involved since the '80s, and I was active in Camden and later Cardiff North and the Vale of Glamorgan. I made the error of voting for the wrong Milliband after Brown resigned. Corbyn was a fiasco and I am not sure what Starmer Labour stand for.

    That said the post-2019 Government has been without doubt the most appalling administration of my lifetime. After Johnson, I had high hopes of Sunak, but since he became PM he has lost every last shred of common sense. I though if they replace him with Mordaunt, I can live with that, but her speech last week confirmed she is hopeless. Which leaves us with a selection of absolute right wing roasters.

    So despite my ambivalence towards Starmer, I do hope Labour win, and win big.

    I do have a ton on a Conservative majority at 9/1 to soften any unexpected blow.
    No £££ win could be big enough to mitigate an emotional and spiritual blow of that magnitude!

    Yes, it's mainly that a fresh Labour government is just by the iron laws of physics bound to be tons better to what we've been tortured with these last few years. That's how I feel too. But, you know, I'm a touch more optimistic than that. I think Starmer is very able and will be bold and creative (in a good way) in office.

    That said, the fiscal, monetary and geopolitical headwinds mean that miracles (aka things getting better) remain off the menu.
  • novanova Posts: 682

    nova said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Absolutely zero chance Israel nukes Iran. Biden will veto it. If Israel were to let the nuclear genie out of the bottle then you can be damn sure Putin will be nuking Ukraine. And then we are in all likelihood in WWIII.

    We're back to the ominous music and blue tickertape headlines from Threads, aren't we?
    Biden will let the Israelis slake their bloodlust for a while and then tell them when it's sufficient. If the Palestinian body count gets close to six digits, I think that's where it begins to get politically tricky for him. They don't want to let it get too genocide-y.

    The SMO is settling into a Stan and Hilda Ogden style stalemate. Both sides are making Billy Big Bollocks claims using random number generators to come up with their claimed kills, etc. but both sides are also going nowhere fast.

    So I think the doomsday clock has gone backwards a few ticks from this time last year. The wildcard is some fucking idiot from NATO or the RF shooting something down by accident over the Black Sea as nearly happened with the Flanker-E/Rivet Joint episode.
    Six figures?

    That would be be twice the death rate of people from the UK in the whole of WWII.
    Six figures is 100,000 and above not (as I suspect you think) 1 million and above.
    The population of Palestine is just under 5m.

    The UK population at the time of WW2 was just under 50m.

    So, six figures in Palestine, would be equivalent to around 1m UK deaths in WW2.

    The UK death toll from WW2 was less than half a million,

    And 1m is twice half a million.

    I suspect you haven't realised just how astonishingly high a death toll of six figures in Palestine would be.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    carnforth said:

    AlistairM said:

    Igor Molotov, RT’s Special Editor, wrote, “It was I who advised detonating a thermonuclear bomb over Siberia. I apologize. It should explode over Israel.”
    https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1712147224086368363

    I thought Russia said all the Nazis were in Ukraine.

    There have been many meltdowns today:

    https://twitter.com/BarbaraRich_law/status/1712035565263032773
    My god. That’s bad. Career ending levels of bad
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,995

    Cyclefree said:

    1. The possible impact on the US Presidential election. There are American hostages being held by Hamas. The US paid money to Iran recently in return for hostages. What impact might both of these facts have?

    Biden could end up going down as Jimmy Carter Mk 2.
    In your dreams. But it may come to pass.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,297

    TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    FYI - The government are actually proposing legislation to house prisoners overseas. The lefty lawyers are obviously going to try and stop it from happening.

    https://howardleague.org/blog/renting-prison-cells-overseas/
  • TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    Can't really disagree with you there.
    Me neither.

    Other democratic countries show no such compulsions. My in-laws live in a remote hamlet in the Rocky Mountains in Alberta, just under 200km away from the nearest town and over a 4 hour drive from the nearest city.

    They have no connection to it, but one of the employers in the hamlet is . . . a Federal Penitentiary located just outside the hamlet.

    It may be on land, but it makes Alcatraz seem easily accessible.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411
    biggles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    malcolmg said:

    biggles said:

    biggles said:

    Israel reporting hostile aircraft entered airspace from Lebanon

    On topic will any of these stories get airtime with the Israel war dominating the media

    Pardon? Hostile aircraft?
    Israel words
    Oh yes, I get that, but whose?

    Hopefully this is all fog of war and minor incursions to poke the bear. If Israel was really attacked substantially from more than one front, the west wound have to consider direct support.
    Militant groups opened a second front in their war with Israel today, sending drones and paragliders carrying militants over the border from Lebanon and Syria.

    Sirens sounded in settlements across northern Israel as residents were warned of a significant infiltration, with “hostile aircraft” entering from Lebanon.

    Drones were also approaching from Syria, where Iran-backed militias including Hezbollah have been building facilities targeted at Israel in recent years.

    Hamas, which has launched five days of rocket and gun attacks from the southern Gaza strip, also said it had shelled the northern Israeli city of Haifa. There were no immediate reports of casualties.

    A spokesman for the Israel Defence Forces said Israel was now facing war “on three fronts”....

    ...It was not immediately clear who the presumed attackers were. Palestinian militant groups including both Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad also have bases in southern Lebanon.

    It is unlikely they would stage an assault without the approval of Hezbollah, however.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/israel-war-hamas-latest-news-gaza-updates-dmptn2hdb
    Getting in before the Yanks arrive, onc ethat carrier group gets there they will be toast.
    The Ford has...

    36 x F/A-18E (Strike/A2A)
    12 x F/A-18F (Strike/Tanker)
    5 x EA-18G (Suppression of Air Defence/Electronic Warfare)
    5 x E-2D (AWACS)
    8 x MH-60S (Replenishment/SAR/Sea Control)
    11 x MH-60R (Maritime Strike)
    2 x C-2A (Shore Replenishment)

    That's a full set of golf clubs.
    Translating...

    36 x F/A-18E - plane on Top Gun: Maverick
    12 x F/A-18F - plane that carries fuel for other planes
    5 x EA-18G - plane that stops the bad guys launching missiles at you
    5 x E-2D - plane that knows where the bad guys are
    8 x MH-60S - helicopter that rescues people
    11 x MH-60R - helicopter that drops torpedoes on submarines
    2 x C-2A - plane that brings food and fuel to people

    This clip from Top Gun: Maverick shows a dialogue between an E2-D (Comanche) and F/A-18 (Dagger One)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeCFdQObeHg&t=89s
    I think the F/A 18 Tankers are also pretty good at hitting things at ground level.
    It is certainly recommended that aircraft remain above ground level when in flight. First line of the instruction manual.
    Well, there’s the Dead Sea, where flying below mean sea level is a thing

    https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/01/20/israeli-pilots-break-guinness-world-record-flying-low-over-dead-sea-video/
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,297

    TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    Can't really disagree with you there.
    Are you also opposed to families being able to visit prisoners in jail? Most of them are obviously very poor. Who would pay for the the train fares?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    Been away for a while, mostly due to a bereavement but have also been paying a good deal less attention to the constant diet of appalling news just lately - which is probably no bad thing.

    One hugely encouraging report tonight though: Starmer committing in unambiguous language to giving the Nimbies a bloody good kicking. If the rhetoric is ultimately backed by solid commitments in the manifesto then I might actually have to turn out and vote Labour, despite my deep cynicism that it makes any real difference to anything at all.

    It’s a good job Sir Keir Starmer is absolutely against NIMBYs. Imagine if this NIMBY had been elected Labour leader.

    https://www.camdennewjournal.co.uk/article/hs2vote?sp=19&sq=HS2
    Practically all constituency MPs object to building anything in their own seats. I'm not relying on Starmer having had an epiphany on the merits of construction, I'm only hoping that he calculates that development (notably development in places that aren't in the middle of cities) will secure his party more votes than it loses, because being Prime Minister bothers him more than giving in to some local bleating for the sake of a quiet life. This is politics: principle doesn't enter the equation.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,141
    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    I learnt something new about the USA this afternoon.

    Flag Retirement Drop Boxes:
    https://hiltonheadislandsc.gov/firerescue/flagbox.cfm

    It may sound silly, but I think that's one of the 1,001 little ways that civilised nations behave. Life doesn't have to be a war of all against all accompanied by screaming.
    US flags only, mind.

    They're very fussy. No-one here thinks anything of UJ knickers, but (certainly in the C20) Old Glory underwear was very much frowned on over there.
    I think it more tells us about the focus of a culture. We roughly have the symbolic role of the King for that, and worry less about flags.

    Consider the similar US oath of enlistment - swearing allegiance to the Constitution:

    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
    Or standing, hand over heart at the beginning of the school day, facing the flag in the corner and reciting:

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all"

    It's like a religious thing to them.
    At the start of soccer football matches here, they play the national anthem, and all the players stand to attention with their hands on their hearts. Despite the fact that pretty much all of them are foreign.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,297
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    Just out of interest, would anyone agree with the idea that the best way to get a grip on this problem is to put more prisoners in to each cell, and to cut the bureaucracy that investigates deaths and assaults in custody.

    Apols if I’m mischaracterising you but I had the impression that you were someone who’s regular refrain is that the world & society was getting increasingly dystopian. I hadn’t realised you thought this was a good thing.
    I was asking if anyone agreed with the idea... I wasn't suggesting that I think it is a good idea.
    @Theuniondivvie what I would also say though is that the state of the prison population and the public perception of justice policy is quite symptomatic of an 'increasingly dystopian' situation.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    I learnt something new about the USA this afternoon.

    Flag Retirement Drop Boxes:
    https://hiltonheadislandsc.gov/firerescue/flagbox.cfm

    It may sound silly, but I think that's one of the 1,001 little ways that civilised nations behave. Life doesn't have to be a war of all against all accompanied by screaming.
    US flags only, mind.

    They're very fussy. No-one here thinks anything of UJ knickers, but (certainly in the C20) Old Glory underwear was very much frowned on over there.
    I think it more tells us about the focus of a culture. We roughly have the symbolic role of the King for that, and worry less about flags.

    Consider the similar US oath of enlistment - swearing allegiance to the Constitution:

    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
    Or standing, hand over heart at the beginning of the school day, facing the flag in the corner and reciting:

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all"

    It's like a religious thing to them.
    Do non-Usonians get an opt-out of that?

    Say if a British or French or Japanese child is at a school in the USA?
    I stood up but didn't do the rest of it when I was school in Washington DC.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690

    TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    Can't really disagree with you there.
    Although there's always the risk you've made a one-off gain on the sale of property, but now need to spend a fortune getting prisoners on remand to where the courts are.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,407
    pigeon said:

    boulay said:

    pigeon said:

    Been away for a while, mostly due to a bereavement but have also been paying a good deal less attention to the constant diet of appalling news just lately - which is probably no bad thing.

    One hugely encouraging report tonight though: Starmer committing in unambiguous language to giving the Nimbies a bloody good kicking. If the rhetoric is ultimately backed by solid commitments in the manifesto then I might actually have to turn out and vote Labour, despite my deep cynicism that it makes any real difference to anything at all.

    It’s a good job Sir Keir Starmer is absolutely against NIMBYs. Imagine if this NIMBY had been elected Labour leader.

    https://www.camdennewjournal.co.uk/article/hs2vote?sp=19&sq=HS2
    Practically all constituency MPs object to building anything in their own seats. I'm not relying on Starmer having had an epiphany on the merits of construction, I'm only hoping that he calculates that development (notably development in places that aren't in the middle of cities) will secure his party more votes than it loses, because being Prime Minister bothers him more than giving in to some local bleating for the sake of a quiet life. This is politics: principle doesn't enter the equation.
    That’s fine as long as people have their eyes open to him being hypocritical and their pet projects and wants are dropped or their hates are pushed through despite anything he said to the contrary.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    I learnt something new about the USA this afternoon.

    Flag Retirement Drop Boxes:
    https://hiltonheadislandsc.gov/firerescue/flagbox.cfm

    It may sound silly, but I think that's one of the 1,001 little ways that civilised nations behave. Life doesn't have to be a war of all against all accompanied by screaming.
    US flags only, mind.

    They're very fussy. No-one here thinks anything of UJ knickers, but (certainly in the C20) Old Glory underwear was very much frowned on over there.
    I think it more tells us about the focus of a culture. We roughly have the symbolic role of the King for that, and worry less about flags.

    Consider the similar US oath of enlistment - swearing allegiance to the Constitution:

    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
    Or standing, hand over heart at the beginning of the school day, facing the flag in the corner and reciting:

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all"

    It's like a religious thing to them.
    Do non-Usonians get an opt-out of that?

    Say if a British or French or Japanese child is at a school in the USA?
    When we were on a school exchange to Virginia back in 1980 we were exempted from the oath. I suspect it depends on the school.
    My brothers and I came to a compromise with the school principal. We would stand out of respect, but not recite the pledge, so that is what I did for 5 years, and hence being able to recall the words nearly 50 years later.

    We were exempt from flag raising the USA flag too, which was considered an honour by other students. We did raise the Georgia flag though.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690

    TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    Can't really disagree with you there.
    Me neither.

    Other democratic countries show no such compulsions. My in-laws live in a remote hamlet in the Rocky Mountains in Alberta, just under 200km away from the nearest town and over a 4 hour drive from the nearest city.

    They have no connection to it, but one of the employers in the hamlet is . . . a Federal Penitentiary located just outside the hamlet.

    It may be on land, but it makes Alcatraz seem easily accessible.
    The prisons in the US are - very often - a long way from anywhwere.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    I learnt something new about the USA this afternoon.

    Flag Retirement Drop Boxes:
    https://hiltonheadislandsc.gov/firerescue/flagbox.cfm

    It may sound silly, but I think that's one of the 1,001 little ways that civilised nations behave. Life doesn't have to be a war of all against all accompanied by screaming.
    US flags only, mind.

    They're very fussy. No-one here thinks anything of UJ knickers, but (certainly in the C20) Old Glory underwear was very much frowned on over there.
    I think it more tells us about the focus of a culture. We roughly have the symbolic role of the King for that, and worry less about flags.

    Consider the similar US oath of enlistment - swearing allegiance to the Constitution:

    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
    Or standing, hand over heart at the beginning of the school day, facing the flag in the corner and reciting:

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all"

    It's like a religious thing to them.
    At the start of soccer football matches here, they play the national anthem, and all the players stand to attention with their hands on their hearts. Despite the fact that pretty much all of them are foreign.
    At remembrance fixtures in the UK football players wear red poppies on their shirts, even the German, Italian and Japanese ones. Some Irish players refuse.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    darkage said:

    TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    Can't really disagree with you there.
    Are you also opposed to families being able to visit prisoners in jail? Most of them are obviously very poor. Who would pay for the the train fares?
    I believe the research shows that prisoners who maintain relationships with their families while incarcerated are much less likely to reoffend.

    So, it's short term costs vs long term costs. Cheaper prisons but maybe more reoffending.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,995
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Crossover in the Blue Wall

    SKS Party Conference unbounce

    SKS Fans please explain

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Largest lead for the Conservatives since we started our Blue Wall tracker last October.

    Blue Wall VI (7 October):

    Conservative 36% (+5)
    Labour 32% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (-2)
    Green 3% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 10 September

    This represents a 12.5% Con to Lab swing since the general election.

    Labour finished third in these seats in 2019 under your boy Corbyn.
    Whats the swing since 2017?

    Nobody cares, because Theresa May won. And we have had a defining election since.
    I know Centrists would like to pretend 2017 never happened but it did and when you say Theresa May won she went into the Election with a Majority and came out of it without one.

    Biggest increase in Lab vote share since WW2
    Yep. 17 was a great result no question. Caused me to join up. Hope renewed. Felt like a win. Kind of was a win. Churlish of people to deny it. But then came the horror of 19. That can't be denied either. Time for a change. Enter SKS. And hasn't he just nailed it. Lucky, yes, but you can only beat what's in front of you, and boy is he ever doing that. Landslide coming.

    I'm on board bettingwise, as a party member, as a voter, and (most importantly) as a citizen. I have just this minute ordered my Sparkle With Starmer tee shirt from the club shop. I suggest you put your debilitating grudge aside and do the same. If you give me your size and colour I'd be happy to put it on my account.
    I haven't been a member since Milliband. Previously I had been involved since the '80s, and I was active in Camden and later Cardiff North and the Vale of Glamorgan. I made the error of voting for the wrong Milliband after Brown resigned. Corbyn was a fiasco and I am not sure what Starmer Labour stand for.

    That said the post-2019 Government has been without doubt the most appalling administration of my lifetime. After Johnson, I had high hopes of Sunak, but since he became PM he has lost every last shred of common sense. I though if they replace him with Mordaunt, I can live with that, but her speech last week confirmed she is hopeless. Which leaves us with a selection of absolute right wing roasters.

    So despite my ambivalence towards Starmer, I do hope Labour win, and win big.

    I do have a ton on a Conservative majority at 9/1 to soften any unexpected blow.
    No £££ win could be big enough to mitigate an emotional and spiritual blow of that magnitude!

    Yes, it's mainly that a fresh Labour government is just by the iron laws of physics bound to be tons better to what we've been tortured with these last few years. That's how I feel too. But, you know, I'm a touch more optimistic than that. I think Starmer is very able and will be bold and creative (in a good way) in office.

    That said, the fiscal, monetary and geopolitical headwinds mean that miracles (aka things getting better) remain off the menu.
    Hamas could be Sunak's black swan.

    I am also concerned if Labour prevail and fail, you know what comes next. Full frontal Suella!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Crossover in the Blue Wall

    SKS Party Conference unbounce

    SKS Fans please explain

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Largest lead for the Conservatives since we started our Blue Wall tracker last October.

    Blue Wall VI (7 October):

    Conservative 36% (+5)
    Labour 32% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (-2)
    Green 3% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 10 September

    This represents a 12.5% Con to Lab swing since the general election.

    Labour finished third in these seats in 2019 under your boy Corbyn.
    Whats the swing since 2017?

    Nobody cares, because Theresa May won. And we have had a defining election since.
    I know Centrists would like to pretend 2017 never happened but it did and when you say Theresa May won she went into the Election with a Majority and came out of it without one.

    Biggest increase in Lab vote share since WW2
    Yep. 17 was a great result no question. Caused me to join up. Hope renewed. Felt like a win. Kind of was a win. Churlish of people to deny it. But then came the horror of 19. That can't be denied either. Time for a change. Enter SKS. And hasn't he just nailed it. Lucky, yes, but you can only beat what's in front of you, and boy is he ever doing that. Landslide coming.

    I'm on board bettingwise, as a party member, as a voter, and (most importantly) as a citizen. I have just this minute ordered my Sparkle With Starmer tee shirt from the club shop. I suggest you put your debilitating grudge aside and do the same. If you give me your size and colour I'd be happy to put it on my account.
    I haven't been a member since Milliband. Previously I had been involved since the '80s, and I was active in Camden and later Cardiff North and the Vale of Glamorgan. I made the error of voting for the wrong Milliband after Brown resigned. Corbyn was a fiasco and I am not sure what Starmer Labour stand for.

    That said the post-2019 Government has been without doubt the most appalling administration of my lifetime. After Johnson, I had high hopes of Sunak, but since he became PM he has lost every last shred of common sense. I though if they replace him with Mordaunt, I can live with that, but her speech last week confirmed she is hopeless. Which leaves us with a selection of absolute right wing roasters.

    So despite my ambivalence towards Starmer, I do hope Labour win, and win big.

    I do have a ton on a Conservative majority at 9/1 to soften any unexpected blow.
    No £££ win could be big enough to mitigate an emotional and spiritual blow of that magnitude!

    Yes, it's mainly that a fresh Labour government is just by the iron laws of physics bound to be tons better to what we've been tortured with these last few years. That's how I feel too. But, you know, I'm a touch more optimistic than that. I think Starmer is very able and will be bold and creative (in a good way) in office.

    That said, the fiscal, monetary and geopolitical headwinds mean that miracles (aka things getting better) remain off the menu.
    Hamas could be Sunak's black swan.

    I am also concerned if Labour prevail and fail, you know what comes next. Full frontal Suella!
    Do you mind? I'm eating, and I could have done without that mental image.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    darkage said:

    TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    Can't really disagree with you there.
    Are you also opposed to families being able to visit prisoners in jail? Most of them are obviously very poor. Who would pay for the the train fares?
    I get prisoners in my clinic from a number of Leicestershire prisons. They come from all over England as far as I can see, from as far as Devon, Newcastle and London.

    Maybe low risk prisoners in open prisons are more local, but that is perhaps part of the rehab.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    edited October 2023
    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    What is the point of having all this "goodwill" if all it means is that you are told you cannot take any action to defend yourself?

    What does this "goodwill" actually amount to?

    There have been a goodly number of people whose first instinct was to blame Israel for what happened, to celebrate what happened. They will blame Israel no matter what it does. If this happened to us here, would we be content with "goodwill" or would we take action to deal with the threat?

    Those who are worried about civilian deaths should come up with a proposal that might avoid these. That is what the UN is for. Perhaps all those Arab states who are so busy furiously denouncing Israel might use their brains and money to help the poor civilians trapped in Gaza. Perhaps they might lean on Hamas. Perhaps. Perhaps.

    But frankly if I were attacked in the way those families were I wouldn't give a shit about having lots of goodwill. I'd want my government to protect me and I'd be pretty bloody sceptical of foreign governments who will rapidly move on when the headlines change.

    If we want Israel to do something other than a bloody invasion of Gaza - which may not succeed and which may be strategically unwise and which will certainly kill a lot of innocents - we'd better bloody well offer them an alternative which will work and not just tut about lost goodwill.
  • Labour just posted this video. It's a series of pledges. Underwhelming imo.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk5kKY5whls
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,661
    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

  • ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Crossover in the Blue Wall

    SKS Party Conference unbounce

    SKS Fans please explain

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Largest lead for the Conservatives since we started our Blue Wall tracker last October.

    Blue Wall VI (7 October):

    Conservative 36% (+5)
    Labour 32% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (-2)
    Green 3% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 10 September

    This represents a 12.5% Con to Lab swing since the general election.

    Labour finished third in these seats in 2019 under your boy Corbyn.
    Whats the swing since 2017?

    Nobody cares, because Theresa May won. And we have had a defining election since.
    I know Centrists would like to pretend 2017 never happened but it did and when you say Theresa May won she went into the Election with a Majority and came out of it without one.

    Biggest increase in Lab vote share since WW2
    Yep. 17 was a great result no question. Caused me to join up. Hope renewed. Felt like a win. Kind of was a win. Churlish of people to deny it. But then came the horror of 19. That can't be denied either. Time for a change. Enter SKS. And hasn't he just nailed it. Lucky, yes, but you can only beat what's in front of you, and boy is he ever doing that. Landslide coming.

    I'm on board bettingwise, as a party member, as a voter, and (most importantly) as a citizen. I have just this minute ordered my Sparkle With Starmer tee shirt from the club shop. I suggest you put your debilitating grudge aside and do the same. If you give me your size and colour I'd be happy to put it on my account.
    I haven't been a member since Milliband. Previously I had been involved since the '80s, and I was active in Camden and later Cardiff North and the Vale of Glamorgan. I made the error of voting for the wrong Milliband after Brown resigned. Corbyn was a fiasco and I am not sure what Starmer Labour stand for.

    That said the post-2019 Government has been without doubt the most appalling administration of my lifetime. After Johnson, I had high hopes of Sunak, but since he became PM he has lost every last shred of common sense. I though if they replace him with Mordaunt, I can live with that, but her speech last week confirmed she is hopeless. Which leaves us with a selection of absolute right wing roasters.

    So despite my ambivalence towards Starmer, I do hope Labour win, and win big.

    I do have a ton on a Conservative majority at 9/1 to soften any unexpected blow.
    No £££ win could be big enough to mitigate an emotional and spiritual blow of that magnitude!

    Yes, it's mainly that a fresh Labour government is just by the iron laws of physics bound to be tons better to what we've been tortured with these last few years. That's how I feel too. But, you know, I'm a touch more optimistic than that. I think Starmer is very able and will be bold and creative (in a good way) in office.

    That said, the fiscal, monetary and geopolitical headwinds mean that miracles (aka things getting better) remain off the menu.
    Hamas could be Sunak's black swan.

    I am also concerned if Labour prevail and fail, you know what comes next. Full frontal Suella!
    Do you mind? I'm eating, and I could have done without that mental image.
    Out of several weird and wonderful crushes admitted to on PB (mostly held by Leon etc), Istr one was for Suella. Can't remember who it was, though perhaps my memory has acted to protect the poor unfortunate.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,995

    Labour just posted this video. It's a series of pledges. Underwhelming imo.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk5kKY5whls

    1. Half inflation
    2. Stop the boats
    3. ...

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    They are not 'happy and prosperous.' They are happier and more prosperous than their neighbours in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, but that is a very low bar. And they are certainly nervous about the complete nutcases around Netanyahu.

    Even before that though, they were very gloomy about the way they were being pushed out. You think we have a housing crisis? Israel's is far worse, and the Arabs (who tend to be poorer) are right at the bottom of the heap.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163
    Nothing in this country works anymore.

    Found out a couple of hours ago that a referral from my GP to a hospital clinic made weeks ago has "never arrived with us".

    Labour have such a f*cking mess to clear up it is unbelievable.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,297
    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    Can't really disagree with you there.
    Are you also opposed to families being able to visit prisoners in jail? Most of them are obviously very poor. Who would pay for the the train fares?
    I believe the research shows that prisoners who maintain relationships with their families while incarcerated are much less likely to reoffend.

    So, it's short term costs vs long term costs. Cheaper prisons but maybe more reoffending.
    @rcs1000

    To be honest what you would find with the London prisons is that the land values would not be as high as you may expect anyway in the current market. There is also the problem that they are listed (Pentonville and Wandsworth) so demolition would be unlikely to be allowed and these buildings are notoriously difficult to repurpose. Then you have to add on all the usual problems and costs of the public sector trying to build anything and there being no land anywhere to do anything with because of various regulatory problems. The idea would never get off the ground and I am sure it has been under active consideration for many years.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,661
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    They are not 'happy and prosperous.' They are happier and more prosperous than their neighbours in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, but that is a very low bar. And they are certainly nervous about the complete nutcases around Netanyahu.

    Even before that though, they were very gloomy about the way they were being pushed out. You think we have a housing crisis? Israel's is far worse, and the Arabs (who tend to be poorer) are right at the bottom of the heap.
    I guess by definition I've only met those that would agree with what I've said, but I get the strong impression that Israeli society is very welcoming.
  • nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    Wars are tragic, its why Hamas shouldn't have started one.

    I pity everyone in Gaza caught up as a consequence of Hamas's actions.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Will Keir Starmer repudiate taking the knee now after this? Lots of others may be regretting their earlier choices.

    Solidarity with those resisting Israeli war crimes and military occupation. We say FREE PALESTINE and support the practical solidarity of @Pal_action
    https://twitter.com/ukblm/status/1710914507646595124
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    What is the point of having all this "goodwill" if all it means is that you are told you cannot take any action to defend yourself?

    What does this "goodwill" actually amount to?

    There have been a goodly number of people whose first instinct was to blame Israel for what happened, to celebrate what happened. They will blame Israel no matter what it does. If this happened to us here, would we be content with "goodwill" or would we take action to deal with the threat?

    Those who are worried about civilian deaths should come up with a proposal that might avoid these. That is what the UN is for. Perhaps all those Arab states who are so busy furiously denouncing Israel might use their brains and money to help the poor civilians trapped in Gaza. Perhaps they might lean on Hamas. Perhaps. Perhaps.

    But frankly if I were attacked in the way those families were I wouldn't give a shit about having lots of goodwill. I'd want my government to protect me and I'd be pretty bloody sceptical of foreign governments who will rapidly move on when the headlines change.

    If we want Israel to do something other than a bloody invasion of Gaza - which may not succeed and which may be strategically unwise and which will certainly kill a lot of innocents - we'd better bloody well offer them an alternative which will work and not just tut about lost goodwill.
    Perhaps in the future Netanyahu shouldn't support Hamas as a way to divide and rule the Palestinians. This is from The Times of Israel:

    "Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2018, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state"

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,699
    edited October 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163

    Labour just posted this video. It's a series of pledges. Underwhelming imo.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk5kKY5whls

    1. Half inflation
    2. Stop the boats
    3. ...

    Publicly owned company should be hyphenated: "publicly-owned".

    I'm wavering in my support.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    Britain is clearly broken

    Our tragedy is that opposition appears to lack the resolution of boldness or ambition to do more than tinker around the edges.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139

    Fake Gaza news floods Twitter as Musk loses grip on reality
    Bastion of online free speech struggles to contain disinformation amid severe staff cuts

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/11/fake-gaza-news-twitter-elon-musk-loses-grip-reality/ (£££)

    Why should Twitter 'contain' 'misinformation'? Censorship is not going to make everyone less misinformed - if anything it adds credence to the misinformation. People should accept there's a lot of bollocks on social media and use their common sense.
    Given your track record of regurgitating everything that spewed out of Russia's dark orifices over MH17, I'd suggest that *you* are a prime example of why censorship of misinformation is vital.

    You didn;t just accept that there was 'bollocks' on social media: you spread it with glee.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    Crossover in the Blue Wall

    SKS Party Conference unbounce

    SKS Fans please explain

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Largest lead for the Conservatives since we started our Blue Wall tracker last October.

    Blue Wall VI (7 October):

    Conservative 36% (+5)
    Labour 32% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (-2)
    Green 3% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 10 September

    I'm a relative newcomer in these parts. I don't wish to speak out of turn, but...

    Fieldwork was done up to and including 7th October. The Labour Party Conference started on 8th October.

    Get a grip of yourself and grow up.

    Rishi has done well to get a 'bounce' in the Blue Wall where his 'policies' would be manna from heaven.

    To suggest that it's a "Conference unbounce' [sic] for Labour is foolish when the Labour Party Conference had yet to start.
    If Sir Keir Starmer could walk on water John would be criticising Starmer for not being able to swim.
    There are plenty of good reasons to criticise Keir.
    JohnO doesn’t bother with those, he mostly just reports comforting half-truths from inside the Corbynista bubble.
    Not sure @JohnO is a Corbynista!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163
    IanB2 said:

    Britain is clearly broken

    Our tragedy is that opposition appears to lack the resolution of boldness or ambition to do more than tinker around the edges.

    Actually I thought that broadcast was brilliant.

    Here's what the problem is, here is our solution, here is how we pay for it.

    It is bombshell proof stuff and who can blame them with the folk memory of 1992 stalking Labour HQ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,675
    Eddie Jones is the favourite to return to the role of Japan head coach, according to reports in the country, after his failure to lead Australia out of their pool at the Rugby World Cup.

    The Sydney Morning Herald reported on the morning of Australia’s 40-6 defeat by Wales that Jones had had a Zoom interview for the role on August 25, two weeks before the tournament began. Jones pleaded ignorance after the match on September 24 and said he was committed to the Wallabies. They went on to be eliminated from the tournament before the knockout stage for the first time.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eddie-jones-expected-to-return-to-japan-job-after-australia-flop-nlbp3zq7x
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163

    Nothing in this country works anymore.

    Found out a couple of hours ago that a referral from my GP to a hospital clinic made weeks ago has "never arrived with us".

    Labour have such a f*cking mess to clear up it is unbelievable.

    Whist I agree with you, as far as lost referrals go it has ever been thus. At least for a long as I have been an adult.

    But then the GP gatekeeper model has been broken for decades and is in dire need of reform.
    Yes, good point on gatekeepers.



  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,647

    Nothing in this country works anymore.

    Found out a couple of hours ago that a referral from my GP to a hospital clinic made weeks ago has "never arrived with us".

    Labour have such a f*cking mess to clear up it is unbelievable.

    We have a backlog of legal cases stretching to (checks notes) Alpha Centauri, we cannot house prisoners in prisons because we didn't build enough, and the number on people on remand is now over 10,000.

    And that's just one part of government.

    [Look can you just add my usual rant at this point? It's depressing me saying the same thing every time. Suffice to say the Conservatives need to be thrown into opposition with great force so they learn they have to stop fucking up like this]
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,297
    AlistairM said:

    Will Keir Starmer repudiate taking the knee now after this? Lots of others may be regretting their earlier choices.

    Solidarity with those resisting Israeli war crimes and military occupation. We say FREE PALESTINE and support the practical solidarity of @Pal_action
    https://twitter.com/ukblm/status/1710914507646595124

    Quite a smart move by Putin to back Hamas.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,141
    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    What is the point of having all this "goodwill" if all it means is that you are told you cannot take any action to defend yourself?

    What does this "goodwill" actually amount to?

    There have been a goodly number of people whose first instinct was to blame Israel for what happened, to celebrate what happened. They will blame Israel no matter what it does. If this happened to us here, would we be content with "goodwill" or would we take action to deal with the threat?

    Those who are worried about civilian deaths should come up with a proposal that might avoid these. That is what the UN is for. Perhaps all those Arab states who are so busy furiously denouncing Israel might use their brains and money to help the poor civilians trapped in Gaza. Perhaps they might lean on Hamas. Perhaps. Perhaps.

    But frankly if I were attacked in the way those families were I wouldn't give a shit about having lots of goodwill. I'd want my government to protect me and I'd be pretty bloody sceptical of foreign governments who will rapidly move on when the headlines change.

    If we want Israel to do something other than a bloody invasion of Gaza - which may not succeed and which may be strategically unwise and which will certainly kill a lot of innocents - we'd better bloody well offer them an alternative which will work and not just tut about lost goodwill.
    I don’t have an alternative , sorry . Maybe the international community could come up with something but they need to act quickly . An interesting view just now on Channel 4 . Netanyahu wants Gazans to leave and go to Egypt and ethnically cleanse them from Gaza so Israel can annex it . Maybe this is why Egypt is reluctant to be too helpful .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    They are not 'happy and prosperous.' They are happier and more prosperous than their neighbours in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, but that is a very low bar. And they are certainly nervous about the complete nutcases around Netanyahu.

    Even before that though, they were very gloomy about the way they were being pushed out. You think we have a housing crisis? Israel's is far worse, and the Arabs (who tend to be poorer) are right at the bottom of the heap.
    I guess by definition I've only met those that would agree with what I've said, but I get the strong impression that Israeli society is very welcoming.
    Well, that was not the impression I got travelling extensively in Israel and the West Bank which included both studying at Yad Vashem and staying with Palestinian families.

    But then, my impression may be entirely wrong through being based on local observation and talking to a wide range of people.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,661
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    They are Israeli citizens, and they have the same rights as all.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654

    Labour just posted this video. It's a series of pledges. Underwhelming imo.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk5kKY5whls

    1. Half inflation
    2. Stop the boats
    3. ...

    Some of these pledges are pathetic and dishonest. So, for example, they claim that they are going to get an extra £1bn from the cancellation of non dom status and use that to address waiting times in the NHS.

    Let’s put aside the possibility that eliminating non doms might actually reduce our tax take and also reduce aggregate demand in the UK costing VAT and other indirect taxes.
    Last year we spent £181.3bn on the NHS. So this £1bn, if it comes, is an increase of around 0.5%. To claim that such a paltry sum is going to solve or even materially contribute to the problem is frankly dishonest. It’s not just wrong, it’s dishonest.
  • ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Crossover in the Blue Wall

    SKS Party Conference unbounce

    SKS Fans please explain

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Largest lead for the Conservatives since we started our Blue Wall tracker last October.

    Blue Wall VI (7 October):

    Conservative 36% (+5)
    Labour 32% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (-2)
    Green 3% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 10 September

    This represents a 12.5% Con to Lab swing since the general election.

    Labour finished third in these seats in 2019 under your boy Corbyn.
    Whats the swing since 2017?

    Nobody cares, because Theresa May won. And we have had a defining election since.
    I know Centrists would like to pretend 2017 never happened but it did and when you say Theresa May won she went into the Election with a Majority and came out of it without one.

    Biggest increase in Lab vote share since WW2
    Yep. 17 was a great result no question. Caused me to join up. Hope renewed. Felt like a win. Kind of was a win. Churlish of people to deny it. But then came the horror of 19. That can't be denied either. Time for a change. Enter SKS. And hasn't he just nailed it. Lucky, yes, but you can only beat what's in front of you, and boy is he ever doing that. Landslide coming.

    I'm on board bettingwise, as a party member, as a voter, and (most importantly) as a citizen. I have just this minute ordered my Sparkle With Starmer tee shirt from the club shop. I suggest you put your debilitating grudge aside and do the same. If you give me your size and colour I'd be happy to put it on my account.
    I haven't been a member since Milliband. Previously I had been involved since the '80s, and I was active in Camden and later Cardiff North and the Vale of Glamorgan. I made the error of voting for the wrong Milliband after Brown resigned. Corbyn was a fiasco and I am not sure what Starmer Labour stand for.

    That said the post-2019 Government has been without doubt the most appalling administration of my lifetime. After Johnson, I had high hopes of Sunak, but since he became PM he has lost every last shred of common sense. I though if they replace him with Mordaunt, I can live with that, but her speech last week confirmed she is hopeless. Which leaves us with a selection of absolute right wing roasters.

    So despite my ambivalence towards Starmer, I do hope Labour win, and win big.

    I do have a ton on a Conservative majority at 9/1 to soften any unexpected blow.
    No £££ win could be big enough to mitigate an emotional and spiritual blow of that magnitude!

    Yes, it's mainly that a fresh Labour government is just by the iron laws of physics bound to be tons better to what we've been tortured with these last few years. That's how I feel too. But, you know, I'm a touch more optimistic than that. I think Starmer is very able and will be bold and creative (in a good way) in office.

    That said, the fiscal, monetary and geopolitical headwinds mean that miracles (aka things getting better) remain off the menu.
    Hamas could be Sunak's black swan.

    I am also concerned if Labour prevail and fail, you know what comes next. Full frontal Suella!
    Do you mind? I'm eating, and I could have done without that mental image.
    I don't think Suella will ever lead the Cons. Assuming a defeat but not a complete wipeout, then the Tory parliamentary party is likely to become somewhat less Brexity. I would expect the one nation faction to have enough MPs to block Suella (although not enough to guarantee their own candidate wins).
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,843
    darkage said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    TOPPING said:

    What someone who was involved once told me was that actually it is very difficult to get sent to jail. The courts will try most every avenue to avoid it and you have to be very determined to end up in prison. Despite the various Daily Mail/Mirror headlines.

    What that says about the price of eggs goodness only knows but it would appear that our lily-livered criminal justice system is overwhelmed by actual criminals.

    I would imagine that we're also still abiding by human rights legislation that means priosners can't be incarcerated too far from home, so that family can visit, hence still having prisons in London. Are we transferring prisoners around the UK where there's space? We should be.
    Gone are the days of Norman Stanley Fletcher being sent to the wilds of Cumbria, far from his home in Muswell Hill
    Well back they should come. Sell the prisons in London for housing.
    Can't really disagree with you there.
    Are you also opposed to families being able to visit prisoners in jail? Most of them are obviously very poor. Who would pay for the the train fares?
    I believe the research shows that prisoners who maintain relationships with their families while incarcerated are much less likely to reoffend.

    So, it's short term costs vs long term costs. Cheaper prisons but maybe more reoffending.
    @rcs1000

    To be honest what you would find with the London prisons is that the land values would not be as high as you may expect anyway in the current market. There is also the problem that they are listed (Pentonville and Wandsworth) so demolition would be unlikely to be allowed and these buildings are notoriously difficult to repurpose. Then you have to add on all the usual problems and costs of the public sector trying to build anything and there being no land anywhere to do anything with because of various regulatory problems. The idea would never get off the ground and I am sure it has been under active consideration for many years.
    Notoriously hard to repurpose? For many Londoners, living in a damp, squalid, poorly insulated and badly maintained six foot by twelve foot cell would be an *upgrade* on their current living conditions.

    Heck, Foxton's could rent Pentonville out as-is for £1200 a room. "Communal living. Trendy East London vibe. Close to Tube Station. Lots of good "bars"..."
  • Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    That is about as accurate as saying that the blacks and latinoes in LA or Detroit are happy and prosperous.

    https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    AlistairM said:

    Will Keir Starmer repudiate taking the knee now after this? Lots of others may be regretting their earlier choices.

    Solidarity with those resisting Israeli war crimes and military occupation. We say FREE PALESTINE and support the practical solidarity of @Pal_action
    https://twitter.com/ukblm/status/1710914507646595124

    Has Primyavada Gopal decided if Israeli lives matter?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,995
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    What is the point of having all this "goodwill" if all it means is that you are told you cannot take any action to defend yourself?

    What does this "goodwill" actually amount to?

    There have been a goodly number of people whose first instinct was to blame Israel for what happened, to celebrate what happened. They will blame Israel no matter what it does. If this happened to us here, would we be content with "goodwill" or would we take action to deal with the threat?

    Those who are worried about civilian deaths should come up with a proposal that might avoid these. That is what the UN is for. Perhaps all those Arab states who are so busy furiously denouncing Israel might use their brains and money to help the poor civilians trapped in Gaza. Perhaps they might lean on Hamas. Perhaps. Perhaps.

    But frankly if I were attacked in the way those families were I wouldn't give a shit about having lots of goodwill. I'd want my government to protect me and I'd be pretty bloody sceptical of foreign governments who will rapidly move on when the headlines change.

    If we want Israel to do something other than a bloody invasion of Gaza - which may not succeed and which may be strategically unwise and which will certainly kill a lot of innocents - we'd better bloody well offer them an alternative which will work and not just tut about lost goodwill.
    Perhaps in the future Netanyahu shouldn't support Hamas as a way to divide and rule the Palestinians. This is from The Times of Israel:

    "Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2018, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state"

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
    This is why I wouldn't be 100% shocked if Bibi had some intel on what was coming down the line, perhaps not on the scale of Saturday. But Bibi does what's best for Bibi and I doubt he worries about any collateral damage inside or outside the State of Israel that doesn't harm
    Bibi.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    They are Israeli citizens, and they have the same rights as all.
    No they aren't. Around 20% of Israelis are Arabs and they have the right to vote in Israel, but the Palestinians in West Bank do not. The Israeli settlers there do have the vote.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Crossover in the Blue Wall

    SKS Party Conference unbounce

    SKS Fans please explain

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Largest lead for the Conservatives since we started our Blue Wall tracker last October.

    Blue Wall VI (7 October):

    Conservative 36% (+5)
    Labour 32% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (-2)
    Green 3% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 10 September

    This represents a 12.5% Con to Lab swing since the general election.

    Labour finished third in these seats in 2019 under your boy Corbyn.
    Whats the swing since 2017?

    Nobody cares, because Theresa May won. And we have had a defining election since.
    I know Centrists would like to pretend 2017 never happened but it did and when you say Theresa May won she went into the Election with a Majority and came out of it without one.

    Biggest increase in Lab vote share since WW2
    Yep. 17 was a great result no question. Caused me to join up. Hope renewed. Felt like a win. Kind of was a win. Churlish of people to deny it. But then came the horror of 19. That can't be denied either. Time for a change. Enter SKS. And hasn't he just nailed it. Lucky, yes, but you can only beat what's in front of you, and boy is he ever doing that. Landslide coming.

    I'm on board bettingwise, as a party member, as a voter, and (most importantly) as a citizen. I have just this minute ordered my Sparkle With Starmer tee shirt from the club shop. I suggest you put your debilitating grudge aside and do the same. If you give me your size and colour I'd be happy to put it on my account.
    I haven't been a member since Milliband. Previously I had been involved since the '80s, and I was active in Camden and later Cardiff North and the Vale of Glamorgan. I made the error of voting for the wrong Milliband after Brown resigned. Corbyn was a fiasco and I am not sure what Starmer Labour stand for.

    That said the post-2019 Government has been without doubt the most appalling administration of my lifetime. After Johnson, I had high hopes of Sunak, but since he became PM he has lost every last shred of common sense. I though if they replace him with Mordaunt, I can live with that, but her speech last week confirmed she is hopeless. Which leaves us with a selection of absolute right wing roasters.

    So despite my ambivalence towards Starmer, I do hope Labour win, and win big.

    I do have a ton on a Conservative majority at 9/1 to soften any unexpected blow.
    No £££ win could be big enough to mitigate an emotional and spiritual blow of that magnitude!

    Yes, it's mainly that a fresh Labour government is just by the iron laws of physics bound to be tons better to what we've been tortured with these last few years. That's how I feel too. But, you know, I'm a touch more optimistic than that. I think Starmer is very able and will be bold and creative (in a good way) in office.

    That said, the fiscal, monetary and geopolitical headwinds mean that miracles (aka things getting better) remain off the menu.
    Hamas could be Sunak's black swan.

    I am also concerned if Labour prevail and fail, you know what comes next. Full frontal Suella!
    Do you mind? I'm eating, and I could have done without that mental image.
    I don't think Suella will ever lead the Cons. Assuming a defeat but not a complete wipeout, then the Tory parliamentary party is likely to become somewhat less Brexity. I would expect the one nation faction to have enough MPs to block Suella (although not enough to guarantee their own candidate wins).
    Many very Brexity MPs are in ultra safe seats, and the temptation to double down after a loss appears very high.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    IanB2 said:

    Britain is clearly broken

    Our tragedy is that opposition appears to lack the resolution of boldness or ambition to do more than tinker around the edges.

    Actually I thought that broadcast was brilliant.

    Here's what the problem is, here is our solution, here is how we pay for it.

    It is bombshell proof stuff and who can blame them with the folk memory of 1992 stalking Labour HQ?
    I spent two terms serving on the same council as Wes Streeting, and he’s a centraliser born and bred, without a single liberal bone in his body. His diagnosis probably contains a lot of truth in it, but (I sadly forecast) he is destined to spend a term trying to impose his views on a massive organisation that will inevitably kick back and frustrate him, whereas the secret to unlocking the potential of our wonderful health service is to find a way to free up doctors, nurses and hospital managers to use their own initiative to achieve improvements without the heavy hand of government forever pressing on their backs
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    The very strong possibility is that Netanyahu would consider granting citizenship to the Palestinians of the West Bank to annex it into Israel, as long as the two million Palestinians in Gaza were not included.

    Why?

    Because Israel would then encompass almost all the old mandate of Palestine and still have a Jewish majority.

    Which is what he had dreamed of for years.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    They are Israeli citizens, and they have the same rights as all.
    Palestinians in the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. Muslims and Christians of Palestinian origin in Israel itself are, but that is rather different.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    What is the point of having all this "goodwill" if all it means is that you are told you cannot take any action to defend yourself?

    What does this "goodwill" actually amount to?

    There have been a goodly number of people whose first instinct was to blame Israel for what happened, to celebrate what happened. They will blame Israel no matter what it does. If this happened to us here, would we be content with "goodwill" or would we take action to deal with the threat?

    Those who are worried about civilian deaths should come up with a proposal that might avoid these. That is what the UN is for. Perhaps all those Arab states who are so busy furiously denouncing Israel might use their brains and money to help the poor civilians trapped in Gaza. Perhaps they might lean on Hamas. Perhaps. Perhaps.

    But frankly if I were attacked in the way those families were I wouldn't give a shit about having lots of goodwill. I'd want my government to protect me and I'd be pretty bloody sceptical of foreign governments who will rapidly move on when the headlines change.

    If we want Israel to do something other than a bloody invasion of Gaza - which may not succeed and which may be strategically unwise and which will certainly kill a lot of innocents - we'd better bloody well offer them an alternative which will work and not just tut about lost goodwill.
    Perhaps in the future Netanyahu shouldn't support Hamas as a way to divide and rule the Palestinians. This is from The Times of Israel:

    "Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2018, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state"

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
    This is why I wouldn't be 100% shocked if Bibi had some intel on what was coming down the line, perhaps not on the scale of Saturday. But Bibi does what's best for Bibi and I doubt he worries about any collateral damage inside or outside the State of Israel that doesn't harm
    Bibi.
    I don't think so.

    I think Bibi was just too bound up in his wrangling about corruption to take notice.

    No Israeli would have let the atrocities and invasion happen if they knew about it. Either they didn't understand the warning, or didn't think it credible.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    edited October 2023
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Crossover in the Blue Wall

    SKS Party Conference unbounce

    SKS Fans please explain

    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    Largest lead for the Conservatives since we started our Blue Wall tracker last October.

    Blue Wall VI (7 October):

    Conservative 36% (+5)
    Labour 32% (-1)
    Liberal Democrat 25% (-1)
    Reform UK 4% (-2)
    Green 3% (-1)
    Other 1% (–)

    Changes +/- 10 September

    This represents a 12.5% Con to Lab swing since the general election.

    Labour finished third in these seats in 2019 under your boy Corbyn.
    Whats the swing since 2017?

    Nobody cares, because Theresa May won. And we have had a defining election since.
    I know Centrists would like to pretend 2017 never happened but it did and when you say Theresa May won she went into the Election with a Majority and came out of it without one.

    Biggest increase in Lab vote share since WW2
    Yep. 17 was a great result no question. Caused me to join up. Hope renewed. Felt like a win. Kind of was a win. Churlish of people to deny it. But then came the horror of 19. That can't be denied either. Time for a change. Enter SKS. And hasn't he just nailed it. Lucky, yes, but you can only beat what's in front of you, and boy is he ever doing that. Landslide coming.

    I'm on board bettingwise, as a party member, as a voter, and (most importantly) as a citizen. I have just this minute ordered my Sparkle With Starmer tee shirt from the club shop. I suggest you put your debilitating grudge aside and do the same. If you give me your size and colour I'd be happy to put it on my account.
    I haven't been a member since Milliband. Previously I had been involved since the '80s, and I was active in Camden and later Cardiff North and the Vale of Glamorgan. I made the error of voting for the wrong Milliband after Brown resigned. Corbyn was a fiasco and I am not sure what Starmer Labour stand for.

    That said the post-2019 Government has been without doubt the most appalling administration of my lifetime. After Johnson, I had high hopes of Sunak, but since he became PM he has lost every last shred of common sense. I though if they replace him with Mordaunt, I can live with that, but her speech last week confirmed she is hopeless. Which leaves us with a selection of absolute right wing roasters.

    So despite my ambivalence towards Starmer, I do hope Labour win, and win big.

    I do have a ton on a Conservative majority at 9/1 to soften any unexpected blow.
    No £££ win could be big enough to mitigate an emotional and spiritual blow of that magnitude!

    Yes, it's mainly that a fresh Labour government is just by the iron laws of physics bound to be tons better to what we've been tortured with these last few years. That's how I feel too. But, you know, I'm a touch more optimistic than that. I think Starmer is very able and will be bold and creative (in a good way) in office.

    That said, the fiscal, monetary and geopolitical headwinds mean that miracles (aka things getting better) remain off the menu.
    Hamas could be Sunak's black swan.

    I am also concerned if Labour prevail and fail, you know what comes next. Full frontal Suella!
    Do you mind? I'm eating, and I could have done without that mental image.
    I don't think Suella will ever lead the Cons. Assuming a defeat but not a complete wipeout, then the Tory parliamentary party is likely to become somewhat less Brexity. I would expect the one nation faction to have enough MPs to block Suella (although not enough to guarantee their own candidate wins).
    Many very Brexity MPs are in ultra safe seats, and the temptation to double down after a loss appears very high.
    The beauty of that - as our HY has long been telling us - is that the rump of Tory MPs likely to be left after the next election will choose some nutter to promote their cause, keeping them out of power until many of us are ready to sink beneath the gravestone.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 5,843
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    I have often wondered if the shrewd Palestinian approach would be to say “we want rights as Israeli citizens”. Hard to argue against given their location, and a terrifying prospect for Israel, which would want rid.

    But all for another time. Right now Hamas has committed an atrocity and Israel needs support..
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    The very strong possibility is that Netanyahu would consider granting citizenship to the Palestinians of the West Bank to annex it into Israel, as long as the two million Palestinians in Gaza were not included.

    Why?

    Because Israel would then encompass almost all the old mandate of Palestine and still have a Jewish majority.

    Which is what he had dreamed of for years.
    No, Bibi wants the land of the West Bank, but not the people.
  • Nothing in this country works anymore.

    Found out a couple of hours ago that a referral from my GP to a hospital clinic made weeks ago has "never arrived with us".

    Labour have such a f*cking mess to clear up it is unbelievable.

    Whist I agree with you, as far as lost referrals go it has ever been thus. At least for a long as I have been an adult.

    But then the GP gatekeeper model has been broken for decades and is in dire need of reform.
    Yes, good point on gatekeepers.



    What I should have added is that I hope everything turns out okay for you.

    I had a similar situation about 6 years ago where I had an abnormal growth on my arm. I saw 4 different GPs over a period of 11 months and they all said it was nothing to worry about and prescribed steroids etc. It was only the 4th who decided to refer me to the Dermatology deprtment at Queens where a very nice tiny Asian lady told me I had skin cancer and told me off for not having gone to see her a year earlier.

  • glwglw Posts: 9,855
    DavidL said:

    Some of these pledges are pathetic and dishonest. So, for example, they claim that they are going to get an extra £1bn from the cancellation of non dom status and use that to address waiting times in the NHS.

    Let’s put aside the possibility that eliminating non doms might actually reduce our tax take and also reduce aggregate demand in the UK costing VAT and other indirect taxes.
    Last year we spent £181.3bn on the NHS. So this £1bn, if it comes, is an increase of around 0.5%. To claim that such a paltry sum is going to solve or even materially contribute to the problem is frankly dishonest. It’s not just wrong, it’s dishonest.

    Correct.

    I listened to Starmer this morning on the radio and it was clear that much of what he said was no more concrete than the rubbish from Sunak last week. The assumptions about tax revenue were dubious, and his commitments were maybe not as substantive as implied, nor was he likely to be able to deliver them without real opposition from his own party never mind the Tories.

    I'll give him a couple of points for at least wanting to go in the right direction, but I won't be holding my breath on him fixing very much.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    Sure I can.

    Are you suggesting the Palestinians can't build there either?

    Both sides have agreed the border is up for negotiations. What do you think that means, that the Palestinians are entitled to that land in full while making claims on Israeli land too?

    The land is disputed territory, Egypt who were its last sovereign owner have renounced it. Israel is perfectly within its rights to build settlements unless or until a negotiation says its not their land.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,297
    nico679 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    What is the point of having all this "goodwill" if all it means is that you are told you cannot take any action to defend yourself?

    What does this "goodwill" actually amount to?

    There have been a goodly number of people whose first instinct was to blame Israel for what happened, to celebrate what happened. They will blame Israel no matter what it does. If this happened to us here, would we be content with "goodwill" or would we take action to deal with the threat?

    Those who are worried about civilian deaths should come up with a proposal that might avoid these. That is what the UN is for. Perhaps all those Arab states who are so busy furiously denouncing Israel might use their brains and money to help the poor civilians trapped in Gaza. Perhaps they might lean on Hamas. Perhaps. Perhaps.

    But frankly if I were attacked in the way those families were I wouldn't give a shit about having lots of goodwill. I'd want my government to protect me and I'd be pretty bloody sceptical of foreign governments who will rapidly move on when the headlines change.

    If we want Israel to do something other than a bloody invasion of Gaza - which may not succeed and which may be strategically unwise and which will certainly kill a lot of innocents - we'd better bloody well offer them an alternative which will work and not just tut about lost goodwill.
    I don’t have an alternative , sorry . Maybe the international community could come up with something but they need to act quickly . An interesting view just now on Channel 4 . Netanyahu wants Gazans to leave and go to Egypt and ethnically cleanse them from Gaza so Israel can annex it . Maybe this is why Egypt is reluctant to be too helpful .
    The EU took in 6 million refugees from Ukraine. So why not 2 million more from Gaza?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    The very strong possibility is that Netanyahu would consider granting citizenship to the Palestinians of the West Bank to annex it into Israel, as long as the two million Palestinians in Gaza were not included.

    Why?

    Because Israel would then encompass almost all the old mandate of Palestine and still have a Jewish majority.

    Which is what he had dreamed of for years.
    No, Bibi wants the land of the West Bank, but not the people.
    He will take the people if he gets the land as well.

    On the basis that ultimately they would be pushed out. By house prices and by his discriminatory policies.

    That was certainly the issue in Nazareth when I was last there. In theory, it was an Arab city and the Jewish Israelis lived in Nazareth Illit. In the real world, every time a house came up for sale no Arabs could afford to buy it, so it went to a Jewish Israeli immigrant.

    This makes it doubly disgusting the opposition have rowed in behind him. Blackadder's advice for FM Haig on raising the men's morale should have applied.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,661
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    They are not 'happy and prosperous.' They are happier and more prosperous than their neighbours in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, but that is a very low bar. And they are certainly nervous about the complete nutcases around Netanyahu.

    Even before that though, they were very gloomy about the way they were being pushed out. You think we have a housing crisis? Israel's is far worse, and the Arabs (who tend to be poorer) are right at the bottom of the heap.
    I guess by definition I've only met those that would agree with what I've said, but I get the strong impression that Israeli society is very welcoming.
    Well, that was not the impression I got travelling extensively in Israel and the West Bank which included both studying at Yad Vashem and staying with Palestinian families.

    But then, my impression may be entirely wrong through being based on local observation and talking to a wide range of people.
    I guess I'll have only met those that are reasonably happy in Israel. Obviously the middle aged people like me, but otherwise the engaged young people. I can tell you that at least some of the latter, no matter their background, absolutely love Israel. So far as I can see there are no happier Arabs, no happier Palestinians, no happier Jews, than those that are undoubtedly just the few in Israel. From what I've seen this is likely to become 'the many'.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    edited October 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    Sure I can.

    Are you suggesting the Palestinians can't build there either?

    No they can't. They need permits from the military government which are oddly never forthcoming.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    Sure I can.

    Are you suggesting the Palestinians can't build there either?

    Both sides have agreed the border is up for negotiations. What do you think that means, that the Palestinians are entitled to that land in full while making claims on Israeli land too?

    The land is disputed territory, Egypt who were its last sovereign owner have renounced it. Israel is perfectly within its rights to build settlements unless or until a negotiation says its not their land.
    The UN says it is not their land. The treaty that established Israel in the first place says it is not their land. A whole succession of UN resolutions over the last 70 years says it is not their land. Just about the only people who say it is their land are the Israelis themselves.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    They are not 'happy and prosperous.' They are happier and more prosperous than their neighbours in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, but that is a very low bar. And they are certainly nervous about the complete nutcases around Netanyahu.

    Even before that though, they were very gloomy about the way they were being pushed out. You think we have a housing crisis? Israel's is far worse, and the Arabs (who tend to be poorer) are right at the bottom of the heap.
    I guess by definition I've only met those that would agree with what I've said, but I get the strong impression that Israeli society is very welcoming.
    Well, that was not the impression I got travelling extensively in Israel and the West Bank which included both studying at Yad Vashem and staying with Palestinian families.

    But then, my impression may be entirely wrong through being based on local observation and talking to a wide range of people.
    I guess I'll have only met those that are reasonably happy in Israel. Obviously the middle aged people like me, but otherwise the engaged young people. I can tell you that at least some of the latter, no matter their background, absolutely love Israel. So far as I can see there are no happier Arabs, no happier Palestinians, no happier Jews, than those that are undoubtedly just the few in Israel. From what I've seen this is likely to become 'the many'.
    You can't see very far, then.
  • nova said:

    nova said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Absolutely zero chance Israel nukes Iran. Biden will veto it. If Israel were to let the nuclear genie out of the bottle then you can be damn sure Putin will be nuking Ukraine. And then we are in all likelihood in WWIII.

    We're back to the ominous music and blue tickertape headlines from Threads, aren't we?
    Biden will let the Israelis slake their bloodlust for a while and then tell them when it's sufficient. If the Palestinian body count gets close to six digits, I think that's where it begins to get politically tricky for him. They don't want to let it get too genocide-y.

    The SMO is settling into a Stan and Hilda Ogden style stalemate. Both sides are making Billy Big Bollocks claims using random number generators to come up with their claimed kills, etc. but both sides are also going nowhere fast.

    So I think the doomsday clock has gone backwards a few ticks from this time last year. The wildcard is some fucking idiot from NATO or the RF shooting something down by accident over the Black Sea as nearly happened with the Flanker-E/Rivet Joint episode.
    Six figures?

    That would be be twice the death rate of people from the UK in the whole of WWII.
    Six figures is 100,000 and above not (as I suspect you think) 1 million and above.
    The population of Palestine is just under 5m.

    The UK population at the time of WW2 was just under 50m.

    So, six figures in Palestine, would be equivalent to around 1m UK deaths in WW2.

    The UK death toll from WW2 was less than half a million,

    And 1m is twice half a million.

    I suspect you haven't realised just how astonishingly high a death toll of six figures in Palestine would be.
    I suspect you haven't realised that the Israelis don't care.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,699
    edited October 2023

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    Sure I can.

    Are you suggesting the Palestinians can't build there either?

    Both sides have agreed the border is up for negotiations. What do you think that means, that the Palestinians are entitled to that land in full while making claims on Israeli land too?

    The land is disputed territory, Egypt who were its last sovereign owner have renounced it. Israel is perfectly within its rights to build settlements unless or until a negotiation says its not their land.
    The UN says it is not their land. The treaty that established Israel in the first place says it is not their land. A whole succession of UN resolutions over the last 70 years says it is not their land. Just about the only people who say it is their land are the Israelis themselves.
    The UN is not a world government, but its moot the UN doesn't say its Palestinian land either.

    The Treaty that established Israel is absolutely moot since the land was taken from Egypt after that when Egypt tried to exterminate Israel.

    Just as Germany lost land to Poland when it invaded Poland but lost the subsequent war.

    Just as if Hamas lose this war and lose all of Gaza to Israel permanently, then that would be karma too.

    Don't start wars of aggression and expect to keep hold of everything you had before hand.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    If this is confirmed, Netanyahu is surely toast:

    Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Britain is clearly broken

    Our tragedy is that opposition appears to lack the resolution of boldness or ambition to do more than tinker around the edges.

    Actually I thought that broadcast was brilliant.

    Here's what the problem is, here is our solution, here is how we pay for it.

    It is bombshell proof stuff and who can blame them with the folk memory of 1992 stalking Labour HQ?
    I spent two terms serving on the same council as Wes Streeting, and he’s a centraliser born and bred, without a single liberal bone in his body. His diagnosis probably contains a lot of truth in it, but (I sadly forecast) he is destined to spend a term trying to impose his views on a massive organisation that will inevitably kick back and frustrate him, whereas the secret to unlocking the potential of our wonderful health service is to find a way to free up doctors, nurses and hospital managers to use their own initiative to achieve improvements without the heavy hand of government forever pressing on their backs
    The sums do not add up.

    Even if the staff wanted to do overtime at weekends to tackle waiting lists*, to run a 7 day service instead of a 5 day service requires 40% more staff. It cannot just be doctors, but has to be everybody: secretaries, receptionists, nurses, porters, theatre staff, laboratory staff etc etc. £1.5 billion won't touch the sides.

    * this is hardly new, my hospital has Waiting List Initiatives at weekend and evening pretty much every weekend for the last 2 decades, with short gaps when money runs out.
    Their sums on VAT on school fees don't add up either.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163

    Nothing in this country works anymore.

    Found out a couple of hours ago that a referral from my GP to a hospital clinic made weeks ago has "never arrived with us".

    Labour have such a f*cking mess to clear up it is unbelievable.

    Whist I agree with you, as far as lost referrals go it has ever been thus. At least for a long as I have been an adult.

    But then the GP gatekeeper model has been broken for decades and is in dire need of reform.
    Yes, good point on gatekeepers.



    What I should have added is that I hope everything turns out okay for you.

    I had a similar situation about 6 years ago where I had an abnormal growth on my arm. I saw 4 different GPs over a period of 11 months and they all said it was nothing to worry about and prescribed steroids etc. It was only the 4th who decided to refer me to the Dermatology deprtment at Queens where a very nice tiny Asian lady told me I had skin cancer and told me off for not having gone to see her a year earlier.

    Thanks. An all too common story I'm afraid.

  • ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    Sure I can.

    Are you suggesting the Palestinians can't build there either?

    No they can't. They need permits from the military government which are oddly never forthcoming.
    Bart really does know bugger all about the situation for Palestinians in the West Bank. I would have hoped he would have educated himself a bit before jumping in at the deep end but it seems not.

    Or maybe he just doesn't care.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,661

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    That is about as accurate as saying that the blacks and latinoes in LA or Detroit are happy and prosperous.

    https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel
    There's not a huge tide of emigration is there?

    You can be unhappy and unprosperous for reasons entirely other than the structure of the society you're in.

    (I think though that it's a good parallel, and much progress needs to happen)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    ydoethur said:

    If this is confirmed, Netanyahu is surely toast:

    Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047

    Perhaps; but there will be hundreds, perhaps thousands, of little nuggets of intelligence passing into Israeli hands each day. Perhaps the overall picture pointed elsewhere, or for a different timing. Some mistakes are understandable... others, not so much.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    ydoethur said:

    If this is confirmed, Netanyahu is surely toast:

    Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047

    How though? He won't voluntarily go surely, and having attempted a unity approach can the combined body politic force him?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,661
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    They are not 'happy and prosperous.' They are happier and more prosperous than their neighbours in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan, but that is a very low bar. And they are certainly nervous about the complete nutcases around Netanyahu.

    Even before that though, they were very gloomy about the way they were being pushed out. You think we have a housing crisis? Israel's is far worse, and the Arabs (who tend to be poorer) are right at the bottom of the heap.
    I guess by definition I've only met those that would agree with what I've said, but I get the strong impression that Israeli society is very welcoming.
    Well, that was not the impression I got travelling extensively in Israel and the West Bank which included both studying at Yad Vashem and staying with Palestinian families.

    But then, my impression may be entirely wrong through being based on local observation and talking to a wide range of people.
    I guess I'll have only met those that are reasonably happy in Israel. Obviously the middle aged people like me, but otherwise the engaged young people. I can tell you that at least some of the latter, no matter their background, absolutely love Israel. So far as I can see there are no happier Arabs, no happier Palestinians, no happier Jews, than those that are undoubtedly just the few in Israel. From what I've seen this is likely to become 'the many'.
    You can't see very far, then.
    Perhaps I have a kinder prescription.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    edited October 2023
    It is worth remembering on the subject of Israeli citizenship and land that all of East Jesrusalem's 370,000 Palestinians have a standing offer of Israeli citizenship. For the very good reason that if they accepted it would strengthen Israel's claim to East Jerusalem and make it near impossible for any Palestinian state to include it.

    In practice, very few have taken it up - partly for that reason and partly because they genuinely dislike the state of Israel - and as it isn't compulsory many of them are, de facto, stateless as a result (including being unable to vote).

    I have no doubt Netanyahu would extend the offer to the inhabitants of the West Bank if it gave him the sovereignty he craved.

    I have equally no doubt he'd be plotting a slow expulsion to consolidate that hold as he did so.

    Which is one reason why I hate the bastard's guts even though I loved my time in Israel.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    nova said:

    nova said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Absolutely zero chance Israel nukes Iran. Biden will veto it. If Israel were to let the nuclear genie out of the bottle then you can be damn sure Putin will be nuking Ukraine. And then we are in all likelihood in WWIII.

    We're back to the ominous music and blue tickertape headlines from Threads, aren't we?
    Biden will let the Israelis slake their bloodlust for a while and then tell them when it's sufficient. If the Palestinian body count gets close to six digits, I think that's where it begins to get politically tricky for him. They don't want to let it get too genocide-y.

    The SMO is settling into a Stan and Hilda Ogden style stalemate. Both sides are making Billy Big Bollocks claims using random number generators to come up with their claimed kills, etc. but both sides are also going nowhere fast.

    So I think the doomsday clock has gone backwards a few ticks from this time last year. The wildcard is some fucking idiot from NATO or the RF shooting something down by accident over the Black Sea as nearly happened with the Flanker-E/Rivet Joint episode.
    Six figures?

    That would be be twice the death rate of people from the UK in the whole of WWII.
    Six figures is 100,000 and above not (as I suspect you think) 1 million and above.
    The population of Palestine is just under 5m.

    The UK population at the time of WW2 was just under 50m.

    So, six figures in Palestine, would be equivalent to around 1m UK deaths in WW2.

    The UK death toll from WW2 was less than half a million,

    And 1m is twice half a million.

    I suspect you haven't realised just how astonishingly high a death toll of six figures in Palestine would be.
    I suspect you haven't realised that the Israelis don't care.
    I think some won't care, and some would relish it as a second Nabka. Many Israelis would care though. Haaretz is rather an Israeli Guardian equivalent, but already it is questioning what is going on.

    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-10-11/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israelis-must-maintain-their-humanity-even-when-their-blood-boils/0000018b-1e18-d465-abbb-1ebe62c80000

    Israel is a very vibrant and diverse country, with every political opinion represented.
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico679 said:

    Dreadful scenes from Gaza . It will be uninhabitable by next week . What happens after Israel finishes its operation there.

    No food , no water , no power . How long can this be sustained for ?

    There’s understandably a lot of goodwill towards Israel given the horrific events of recent days but I just can’t see this lasting if Gaza is razed to the ground and there’s a huge amount of civilian deaths .



    If the land becomes a wilderness, and if all the residents get out safely to the south (or otherwise) then that'd be a great resolution.

    Who wants a Gazan though as an immigrant? Given they're all so young and impressionable, and the terrorist climate there, I'd question whether anyone would want them.

    I think every Palestinian needs to look at themselves and realise that they are in a hopeless nowhere of their own making, and yet the Israelis are shining. More importantly the Arabs and the Palestinians within the state of Israel are happy and prosperous.

    I'm sorry, did the Palestinians force the Israelis to build settlements on the West Bank?

    I'm happy to go with: this was a cowardly, vicious attack, and we should support the Israelis in dealing with it. But I'm not going to blame the Palestinians for existing. Or, indeed, for hating Israel. I suspect I would to if I had been born there.
    Why shouldn't the Israelis build settlements on their own land?

    The Arabs, not the Israelis, chose to deny a Palestinian state and Israel offered them one yet again in the negotiations with Arafat which was yet again rejected.

    In the meantime, unless or until an agreement is reached, Israel is perfectly free to build on its own land.
    In which case, the Palestinians in the West Bank are Israeli citizens, and need to be granted the same rights as all other Israelis.

    You can't have it both ways.
    The very strong possibility is that Netanyahu would consider granting citizenship to the Palestinians of the West Bank to annex it into Israel, as long as the two million Palestinians in Gaza were not included.

    Why?

    Because Israel would then encompass almost all the old mandate of Palestine and still have a Jewish majority.

    Which is what he had dreamed of for years.
    No, Bibi wants the land of the West Bank, but not the people.
    He will take the people if he gets the land as well.

    On the basis that ultimately they would be pushed out. By house prices and by his discriminatory policies.

    That was certainly the issue in Nazareth when I was last there. In theory, it was an Arab city and the Jewish Israelis lived in Nazareth Illit. In the real world, every time a house came up for sale no Arabs could afford to buy it, so it went to a Jewish Israeli immigrant.

    This makes it doubly disgusting the opposition have rowed in behind him. Blackadder's advice for FM Haig on raising the men's morale should have applied.
    To lighten the mood a moment, your comment once again reminds me of the magnificent PJ O'Rourke discussing South Africa during apartheid.

    "The world is built on discrimination of the most horrible kind. The problem with South Africans is they admit it.

    They don’t say, like the French, “Algerians have a legal right to live in the sixteenth arrondissement, but they can’t afford to.” They don’t say, like the Israelis, “Arabs have a legal right to live in West Jerusalem, but they’re afraid to.” They don’t say, like the Americans, “Indians have a legal right to live in Ohio, but oops, we killed them all.”

    The South Africans just say, “Fuck you.” I believe it’s right there in their constitution: “Article IV: Fuck you. We’re bigots.” We hate them for this. And we’re going to hold indignant demonstrations…until the South Africans learn to stand up and lie like white men."

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,995
    ...
    ydoethur said:

    If this is confirmed, Netanyahu is surely toast:

    Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047

    I expressed my surprise that Bibi had no inkling of what was going on last week, earlier, only to be castigated by a poster whose avatar is a top hat as a Socialist Worker's Party shill.
This discussion has been closed.