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Tory incompetence – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,114
edited October 2023 in General
Tory incompetence – politicalbetting.com

Look at the words that are coming up most:Useless, Incompetent, rubbish.The Government's biggest electoral issue is not their positions or ideology, which is why shifting them doesn't shift the polls.It's delivery. It's getting things done.HS2 cancellation is a disaster. https://t.co/R6WgK9eTKC

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Comments

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,660
    FPT: Sometimes with all the awful shit going on in the world the only rational response is to go dancing. Heading home from Peckham tired but happy.

    And first apparently!
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,597
    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    Hi to whoever it was who was asked "please give me 1 word to describe the Conservative Party" and said "Conservative".

    Whatever this lot are, they’re not conservative. Destructionist would be more like it.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,654
    ydoethur said:

    Hi to whoever it was who was asked "please give me 1 word to describe the Conservative Party" and said "Conservative".

    Whatever this lot are, they’re not conservative. Destructionist would be more like it.
    Also see the response to the left of "Conservative".
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,362

    Hi to whoever it was who was asked "please give me 1 word to describe the Conservative Party" and said "Conservative".

    "Tories"
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 685
    Some Leonesque comments on Israel- Hamas situation - this is going to escalate...badly.
    This attack might have been conducted by Hamas but was directed by Iran. Iran want to create conflict to derail the upcoming Saudi/UAE-Israel peace talks. Before the year ends I expect to see Iran and Saudi in a state of war - with troubles in Bahrain and Qatar.
    Sorry for the doom...
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,083
    Penddu2 said:

    Some Leonesque comments on Israel- Hamas situation - this is going to escalate...badly.

    It may. Equally, it may not.

    We've been here many times before, and somehow so far they have always managed to contain it. Because it's in the sane world's interest to do so and included in that majority are serious interests.

    So, on balance, no I don't think it will escalate very much, nor to the hyperbolic level you (and Leondamus) imagine.

  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 685
    Heathener said:

    Penddu2 said:

    Some Leonesque comments on Israel- Hamas situation - this is going to escalate...badly.

    It may. Equally, it may not.

    We've been here many times before, and somehow so far they have always managed to contain it. Because it's in the sane world's interest to do so and included in that majority are serious interests.

    So, on balance, no I don't think it will escalate very much, nor to the hyperbolic level you (and Leondamus) imagine.

    I very much hope you are right and I am being overly pessimistic. But I am not comfortable with current situation...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Good morning, everyone.

    Time to peruse the F1 markets.
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 685
    edited October 2023
    On a happier note, I was pleased by my RWC predictions yesterday and make a final set for the last round of pool games today:

    Tonga v Romania – Play off for 4th-5th place. Romania’s best chance to win their first RWC game but Tonga to win comfortably by 20.

    Japan v Argentina – This is maybe the hardest match to call this weekend. Argentina have improved slowly through the tournament but Japan will be targeting this game to reach the QF. I expect Argentina to win but only by 5 or 6 – and Japan could potentially steal it.

    Fiji v Portugal – This could be the most exciting game of the weekend – Both sides will be running from everywhere but I expect Fiji’s strength to prevail – Fiji by 15.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Penddu2 said:

    Heathener said:

    Penddu2 said:

    Some Leonesque comments on Israel- Hamas situation - this is going to escalate...badly.

    It may. Equally, it may not.

    We've been here many times before, and somehow so far they have always managed to contain it. Because it's in the sane world's interest to do so and included in that majority are serious interests.

    So, on balance, no I don't think it will escalate very much, nor to the hyperbolic level you (and Leondamus) imagine.

    I very much hope you are right and I am being overly pessimistic. But I am not comfortable with current situation...
    I think the issue here is with the 'serious interests of the sane world.'

    Unfortunately they have been progressively sidelined in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and we are left with Netanyahu and his loons on one side and Haniyeh and his genocidal loons on the other.

    It might be contained - the Saudis (for a given value of 'sane') are already trying to broker some sort of climb down. But the risks it won't be are extremely high.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    Penddu2 said:

    Some Leonesque comments on Israel- Hamas situation - this is going to escalate...badly.
    This attack might have been conducted by Hamas but was directed by Iran. Iran want to create conflict to derail the upcoming Saudi/UAE-Israel peace talks. Before the year ends I expect to see Iran and Saudi in a state of war - with troubles in Bahrain and Qatar.
    Sorry for the doom...

    There’s sadly something to be said for that point of view, and there’s going to be an awful lot of top-level diplomacy required across the region to prevent things turning quite nasty indeed.

    I think the Iran-Saudi war will most likely continue as a proxy in Yemen though, rather than more directly. Worrying times.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Betting Post
    F1: impressed with McLaren in the sprint and the circuit may make passing too easy, so backed them both (one stake split evenly) to win each way at 23 for Piastri and 19 for Norris, boosted.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2023/10/qatar-pre-race-2023.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Sandpit said:

    Penddu2 said:

    Some Leonesque comments on Israel- Hamas situation - this is going to escalate...badly.
    This attack might have been conducted by Hamas but was directed by Iran. Iran want to create conflict to derail the upcoming Saudi/UAE-Israel peace talks. Before the year ends I expect to see Iran and Saudi in a state of war - with troubles in Bahrain and Qatar.
    Sorry for the doom...

    There’s sadly something to be said for that point of view, and there’s going to be an awful lot of top-level diplomacy required across the region to prevent things turning quite nasty indeed.

    I think the Iran-Saudi war will most likely continue as a proxy in Yemen though, rather than more directly. Worrying times.
    Iran, of course, has its own quite serious domestic and diplomatic problems at the moment. Its key allies of Russia and Armenia are under severe pressure, its population is fuming over the many crimes of the government especially against young women, like the rest of the planet it is grappling with high inflation and its economy continues to struggle under the impact of sanctions however slackly applied. Meanwhile, it is effectively cut off from the Arab world and its activities in Iraq are at best of limited effect.

    It may be they have calculated they need a war to reverse their wave of unpopularity. That would be entirely in keeping with their outlook and that of many dictators through time. What would puzzle me is how they think poking Netanyahu with a very large stick like this, by using a pariah organisation like Hamas to rape and murder inside Israel and give him an opportunity to move decisively against Gaza, would achieve that.

    It might, of course, lead to problems between the Israelis and the Saudis. But truthfully, neither the Saudis nor the Egyptians have any love for Hamas and would probably be very happy indeed to see the Israelis smash them even if their citizens might not be. It might give Iran's enemies in the west a further headache and take pressure off Russia in Ukraine, but that's not altogether likely as Ukraine is far more strategically important to the West than Israel and there is no doubt whom they would fling under the bus first if necessary.

    Or it may be that they have calculated Gaza is unsustainable without doing something drastic, and this is the something drastic.

    Whatever it is, I can't see good outcomes from it for anyone. There are bad ones and much worse ones.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,678
    edited October 2023
    There are consequences for the Tories putting out all this nonsense like stopping the tax on meat. In the local by election around my way the Tories have put out a rather good leaflet with a revelation of incompetence at the council. I have no idea if it is true or not, but the feedback is people think they are making it up.. Likely your own voters believe it and your opponents don't, but what about the floaters?
  • Penddu2Penddu2 Posts: 685
    Just to correct you on one point - Iran is not part of the Arab world (unlike Iraq). They are Shia Muslim but not Arab. They support Shia Arabs in Yemen (Houthi), Lebanon (Hezbollah), Bahrain & Eastern province of Saudi. They want to forment Shia-Sunni conflict which puts them in direct conflict (not neccesarily fighting) with Saudi & UAE.
  • MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    Poor old MoS, they spend a load of money in an effort to find some positive spin for Sunak and get this …
    * Starmer more trusted to protect the rights of women and girls.
    * Starmer the stronger leader
    * Starmer more trusted overall
    * Sunak the bigger flip-flopper
    * Sunak more out of touch
    * Sunak more seen as representing more of the same

    He would win a 10km race, but Starmer best for a pub quiz!!

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,993
    MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    I suspect that poll reflects name recognition as much as anything else.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    Penddu2 said:

    Just to correct you on one point - Iran is not part of the Arab world (unlike Iraq). They are Shia Muslim but not Arab. They support Shia Arabs in Yemen (Houthi), Lebanon (Hezbollah), Bahrain & Eastern province of Saudi. They want to forment Shia-Sunni conflict which puts them in direct conflict (not neccesarily fighting) with Saudi & UAE.

    AIUI, too, Iranians take exception to being described as Arabs. They might be Muslims, but they are not Arabs!

    Good morning everybody.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,939
    edited October 2023

    MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    I suspect that poll reflects name recognition as much as anything else.
    It has to be. I would love to know the reasons why anyone said Blair because I really can’t think of any reasons - everyone else has a big issue you could attach to them but Blair’s time was benign
  • eek said:

    MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    I suspect that poll reflects name recognition as much as anything else.
    It has to be. I would love to know the reasons why anyone said Blair because I really can’t think of any reasons - everyone else has a big issue you could attach to them but Blair’s time was benign
    He was a generally capable PM who got Iraq badly wrong. Hard to see why he should be blamed for the current economic situation.

    It rather makes you question how meaningful the poll might be.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,631
    edited October 2023
    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,675
    Two stories doing the rounds at the Conservative Party conference last week — one true, the other a joke — sum up where the Tories find themselves.

    Jeremy Hunt, the chancellor, told cabinet colleagues he recently asked the artificial intelligence app ChatGPT: “Is Jeremy Hunt doing a good job as chancellor?” To his distress and amusement came the reply: “Jeremy Hunt is not the chancellor, Rishi Sunak is.”

    And a wit at the Treasury, where civil servants are still unclear what the government will put in the autumn statement on November 22, quipped: “We are waiting for the prime minister to tell us.”

    The parallels with Gordon Brown’s micromanagement send a chill up Tory spines. “Like Gordon, he’s convinced he’s morally and intellectually superior to his predecessors, despite never having won an election,” a former No 10 adviser thundered. “And he never will.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rishi-sunak-tories-next-general-election-lrx8dkp0c
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    The thinking of Hamas/Iran probably went something like this...

    (1) Massive attack on Israel, with utterly disgusting brutal atrocities - to be widely broadcast on social media
    (2) Provoke the fury and wrath of Israel, to wipe out Gaza - again, capture the worst bits; broadcast it all
    (3) Trigger a wider Middle East conflagration in disgust, and ally with everyone to wipe out Israel
    (4) Be rewarded in this life or the next, as holy martyrs, for wiping the Jews and their state

    So, it's not dissimilar to the thinking of White Supremacists who want to provoke a race war that, ultimately, will work out in their favour.

    [Btw, I don't think (3) would happen regardless, but Netanyahu needs to be careful not to fall into a trap on (2)]
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,678

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
  • The thinking of Hamas/Iran probably went something like this...

    (1) Massive attack on Israel, with utterly disgusting brutal atrocities - to be widely broadcast on social media
    (2) Provoke the fury and wrath of Israel, to wipe out Gaza - again, capture the worst bits; broadcast it all
    (3) Trigger a wider Middle East conflagration in disgust, and ally with everyone to wipe out Israel
    (4) Be rewarded in this life or the next, as holy martyrs, for wiping the Jews and their state

    So, it's not dissimilar to the thinking of White Supremacists who want to provoke a race war that, ultimately, will work out in their favour.

    [Btw, I don't think (3) would happen regardless, but Netanyahu needs to be careful not to fall into a trap on (2)]

    I think you're spot on. Netanyahu has big problems, though:
    1. He is in coalition with far-right ethno-nationalists who believe they know better than the IDF
    2. He is in that coalition solely because he needed to power to prevent criminal investigation of himself
    3. The combination of 1 and 2 means that he totally took his eye off the national security ball

    Put all of that together and there is a very good chance that he now reacts in exactly the way that Hamas/Iran want.


  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872

    The thinking of Hamas/Iran probably went something like this...

    (1) Massive attack on Israel, with utterly disgusting brutal atrocities - to be widely broadcast on social media
    (2) Provoke the fury and wrath of Israel, to wipe out Gaza - again, capture the worst bits; broadcast it all
    (3) Trigger a wider Middle East conflagration in disgust, and ally with everyone to wipe out Israel
    (4) Be rewarded in this life or the next, as holy martyrs, for wiping the Jews and their state

    So, it's not dissimilar to the thinking of White Supremacists who want to provoke a race war that, ultimately, will work out in their favour.

    [Btw, I don't think (3) would happen regardless, but Netanyahu needs to be careful not to fall into a trap on (2)]

    I think you're spot on. Netanyahu has big problems, though:
    1. He is in coalition with far-right ethno-nationalists who believe they know better than the IDF
    2. He is in that coalition solely because he needed to power to prevent criminal investigation of himself
    3. The combination of 1 and 2 means that he totally took his eye off the national security ball

    Put all of that together and there is a very good chance that he now reacts in exactly the way that Hamas/Iran want.


    Yes, indeed. It's concerning.

    Of course, they know all this too (Hamas/Iran aren't stupid) which is why they struck as hard as they did when they did.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100
    Good Morning

    A rather bleak scenario being painted by the Telegraph. After the recent bond sell offs are we facing another black Monday, although it could be any trading day, as the markets get used to higher for longer rates.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    More on topic than the discussion so far this morning, today’s Sunday Rawnsley:

    The Tory leader’s attempt to rebrand himself as an agent of “change” was the audacity of the desperate. The essential smallness of Mr Sunak’s speech came at the end of a Tory conference in Manchester that had the smell of a party preparing for opposition.

    Voters loathe it when they think they are being taken for granted and pollsters report that the phrase “he’s already measuring the curtains” has started to crop up in their focus groups when members of the public talk about Sir Keir. Cheerful and confident is a good look; cocky and triumphalist isn’t.

    Virtually all of [Keir’s] colleagues, including many who used to be consumed with doubt that he had the capacity to take them into power, now speak with admiration about the transformation of the party’s prospects under his leadership.

    The absence of a record that they can boast about means the Conservatives will rely even more heavily than they usually do on trying to trash Labour’s credibility and especially the character of its leader. The Tories grasp that they are unlikely to succeed in convincing voters that Sir Keir is too scary to be allowed anywhere near Number 10. “People can see he is not Corbyn,” says one senior Conservative. They are seeking to frame the Labour leader as a shifty opportunist who will say anything to get elected.

    What the Tories say about them is not the first order question facing Labour this week. The most crucial one is whether Labour can communicate persuasively with the country. It should worry the shadow cabinet that only a shade more than a third of people currently saying they intend to vote Labour at the election think that the party has clear plans for the country. “If not them, why us?” is the exam question this conference has been set and it must be answered with compelling clarity and coherence.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100
    John Curtice, polling guru, on the softness of the labour lead and how Rishi could snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Heaven help us.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-poll-keir-starmer-unpopular-tories-b2425801.html
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
    People come, people go. So what.

    I don’t mind Faarooq, but it’s all getting a bit like CHB when he was crying for some departed posters to return and then promptly flounced himself. It’s bizarre when people are nostalgic For posters on a message board.

    People get far too invested in these debates and discussions. Especially on fucking Israel. Which is why I avoid the topic in any depth. No good ever comes out of it and on Twitter it’s far worse.
  • The thinking of Hamas/Iran probably went something like this...

    (1) Massive attack on Israel, with utterly disgusting brutal atrocities - to be widely broadcast on social media
    (2) Provoke the fury and wrath of Israel, to wipe out Gaza - again, capture the worst bits; broadcast it all
    (3) Trigger a wider Middle East conflagration in disgust, and ally with everyone to wipe out Israel
    (4) Be rewarded in this life or the next, as holy martyrs, for wiping the Jews and their state

    So, it's not dissimilar to the thinking of White Supremacists who want to provoke a race war that, ultimately, will work out in their favour.

    [Btw, I don't think (3) would happen regardless, but Netanyahu needs to be careful not to fall into a trap on (2)]

    I think you're spot on. Netanyahu has big problems, though:
    1. He is in coalition with far-right ethno-nationalists who believe they know better than the IDF
    2. He is in that coalition solely because he needed to power to prevent criminal investigation of himself
    3. The combination of 1 and 2 means that he totally took his eye off the national security ball

    Put all of that together and there is a very good chance that he now reacts in exactly the way that Hamas/Iran want.


    Yes, indeed. It's concerning.

    Of course, they know all this too (Hamas/Iran aren't stupid) which is why they struck as hard as they did when they did.

    Yep - I think the huge protests against the Netanyahu government inside Israel would also have spooked them. They need him in power.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,100

    eek said:

    MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    I suspect that poll reflects name recognition as much as anything else.
    It has to be. I would love to know the reasons why anyone said Blair because I really can’t think of any reasons - everyone else has a big issue you could attach to them but Blair’s time was benign
    He was a generally capable PM who got Iraq badly wrong. Hard to see why he should be blamed for the current economic situation.

    It rather makes you question how meaningful the poll might be.
    People who don't like Labour will pick the most prominent Labour PM from the list, people who don't like the Conservatives will pick the most prominent Tory. Not sure if Sunak should get comfort from so few blaming him, or whether it just shows what a nonentity he is
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
    People come, people go. So what.

    I don’t mind Faarooq, but it’s all getting a bit like CHB when he was crying for some departed posters to return and then promptly flounced himself. It’s bizarre when people are nostalgic For posters on a message board.

    People get far too invested in these debates and discussions. Especially on fucking Israel. Which is why I avoid the topic in any depth. No good ever comes out of it and on Twitter it’s far worse.
    When you find out that PB is a long-running experimental AI, and that you’ve been the only real person in here all along, it can come as quite a shock….

    The only consultation in that thought is that Leon might not be real person!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
    People come, people go. So what.

    I don’t mind Faarooq, but it’s all getting a bit like CHB when he was crying for some departed posters to return and then promptly flounced himself. It’s bizarre when people are nostalgic For posters on a message board.

    People get far too invested in these debates and discussions. Especially on fucking Israel. Which is why I avoid the topic in any depth. No good ever comes out of it and on Twitter it’s far worse.
    I agree with getting too invested, but some people of evil want good people to have exactly the attitude of: "The conversation on this issue is far too toxic: I'll keep out."

    Hence leaving the playing field to the extremists. And it's not just issues like Israel / Palestine / Hamas, either.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,921
    edited October 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Whatever it is, I can't see good outcomes from it for anyone. There are bad ones and much worse ones.

    Welcome to the Middle East.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
    People come, people go. So what.

    I don’t mind Faarooq, but it’s all getting a bit like CHB when he was crying for some departed posters to return and then promptly flounced himself. It’s bizarre when people are nostalgic For posters on a message board.

    People get far too invested in these debates and discussions. Especially on fucking Israel. Which is why I avoid the topic in any depth. No good ever comes out of it and on Twitter it’s far worse.
    I agree with getting too invested, but some people of evil want good people to have exactly the attitude of: "The conversation on this issue is far too toxic: I'll keep out."

    Hence leaving the playing field to the extremists. And it's not just issues like Israel / Palestine / Hamas, either.
    But that’s always been the real success of PB; unlike most other internet discussion sites, especially on politics, it manages to avoid descending into an abusive bear pit, despite the occasional late night efforts of some.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,777
    edited October 2023
    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,777
    IanB2 said:

    More on topic than the discussion so far this morning, today’s Sunday Rawnsley:

    The Tory leader’s attempt to rebrand himself as an agent of “change” was the audacity of the desperate. The essential smallness of Mr Sunak’s speech came at the end of a Tory conference in Manchester that had the smell of a party preparing for opposition.

    The absence of a record that they can boast about means the Conservatives will rely even more heavily than they usually do on trying to trash Labour’s credibility and especially the character of its leader. The Tories grasp that they are unlikely to succeed in convincing voters that Sir Keir is too scary to be allowed anywhere near Number 10. “People can see he is not Corbyn,” says one senior Conservative. They are seeking to frame the Labour leader as a shifty opportunist who will say anything to get elected.

    Quite something for Sunak to try to paint someone else as a shifty opportunist who will say anything…..
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284
    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
    People come, people go. So what.

    I don’t mind Faarooq, but it’s all getting a bit like CHB when he was crying for some departed posters to return and then promptly flounced himself. It’s bizarre when people are nostalgic For posters on a message board.

    People get far too invested in these debates and discussions. Especially on fucking Israel. Which is why I avoid the topic in any depth. No good ever comes out of it and on Twitter it’s far worse.
    I agree with getting too invested, but some people of evil want good people to have exactly the attitude of: "The conversation on this issue is far too toxic: I'll keep out."

    Hence leaving the playing field to the extremists. And it's not just issues like Israel / Palestine / Hamas, either.
    But that’s always been the real success of PB; unlike most other internet discussion sites, especially on politics, it manages to avoid descending into an abusive bear pit, despite the occasional late night efforts of some.
    Makes it informative, too. Civilised …. dare I say liberal ….. discussion is always better in leading to appreciation of others views than just shouting.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,163

    IanB2 said:

    More on topic than the discussion so far this morning, today’s Sunday Rawnsley:

    The Tory leader’s attempt to rebrand himself as an agent of “change” was the audacity of the desperate. The essential smallness of Mr Sunak’s speech came at the end of a Tory conference in Manchester that had the smell of a party preparing for opposition.

    The absence of a record that they can boast about means the Conservatives will rely even more heavily than they usually do on trying to trash Labour’s credibility and especially the character of its leader. The Tories grasp that they are unlikely to succeed in convincing voters that Sir Keir is too scary to be allowed anywhere near Number 10. “People can see he is not Corbyn,” says one senior Conservative. They are seeking to frame the Labour leader as a shifty opportunist who will say anything to get elected.

    Quite something for Sunak to try to paint someone else as a shifty opportunist who will say anything…..
    Not sure how much 'paint' you feel will be needed in this case.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
    People come, people go. So what.

    I don’t mind Faarooq, but it’s all getting a bit like CHB when he was crying for some departed posters to return and then promptly flounced himself. It’s bizarre when people are nostalgic For posters on a message board.

    People get far too invested in these debates and discussions. Especially on fucking Israel. Which is why I avoid the topic in any depth. No good ever comes out of it and on Twitter it’s far worse.
    I agree with getting too invested, but some people of evil want good people to have exactly the attitude of: "The conversation on this issue is far too toxic: I'll keep out."

    Hence leaving the playing field to the extremists. And it's not just issues like Israel / Palestine / Hamas, either.
    No, the trans debate is another. I won’t even post on that in public using my own name. I don’t discuss it here now. My views are my views.
  • Labour women are against rape, sexual harassment and glass ceilings.
    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1710767403028603275
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100
    edited October 2023
    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
    People come, people go. So what.

    I don’t mind Faarooq, but it’s all getting a bit like CHB when he was crying for some departed posters to return and then promptly flounced himself. It’s bizarre when people are nostalgic For posters on a message board.

    People get far too invested in these debates and discussions. Especially on fucking Israel. Which is why I avoid the topic in any depth. No good ever comes out of it and on Twitter it’s far worse.
    I agree with getting too invested, but some people of evil want good people to have exactly the attitude of: "The conversation on this issue is far too toxic: I'll keep out."

    Hence leaving the playing field to the extremists. And it's not just issues like Israel / Palestine / Hamas, either.
    But that’s always been the real success of PB; unlike most other internet discussion sites, especially on politics, it manages to avoid descending into an abusive bear pit, despite the occasional late night efforts of some.
    No doubt after being fuelled by two or three bottles of whatever was in the online bargain bin at Wines Direct.

    Alcohol and vigorous debate are not good bedfellows.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
    I don’t think Tone would have pursued Brexit, Rwanda or the War on Woke, Alan.
    Nah he was too busy killing half a million Iraqis, pissing away billions on computer systems that didnt work (and were quietly scrapped) and passing thousands of pointless laws.

    The Tories are simply Blairism lite and not very good at it. At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,030
    eek said:

    MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    I suspect that poll reflects name recognition as much as anything else.
    It has to be. I would love to know the reasons why anyone said Blair because I really can’t think of any reasons - everyone else has a big issue you could attach to them but Blair’s time was benign
    I suspect it’s just a generic “who is my least favourite PM for whatever reason” answer

    That said, there is a case that many of the economic issues facing the country have their roots in Blair’s government

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
    I don’t think Tone would have pursued Brexit, Rwanda or the War on Woke, Alan.
    Nah he was too busy killing half a million Iraqis, pissing away billions on computer systems that didnt work (and were quietly scrapped) and passing thousands of pointless laws.

    The Tories are simply Blairism lite and not very good at it. At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

    By the way, just seen your post from yesterday. As you are clearly unable to see a link which I provided in the previous email, as I pointed out at the time, I suggest a visit to Specsavers (not necessarily Barnard's Castle).
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,660

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
    People come, people go. So what.

    I don’t mind Faarooq, but it’s all getting a bit like CHB when he was crying for some departed posters to return and then promptly flounced himself. It’s bizarre when people are nostalgic For posters on a message board.

    People get far too invested in these debates and discussions. Especially on fucking Israel. Which is why I avoid the topic in any depth. No good ever comes out of it and on Twitter it’s far worse.
    I agree with getting too invested, but some people of evil want good people to have exactly the attitude of: "The conversation on this issue is far too toxic: I'll keep out."

    Hence leaving the playing field to the extremists. And it's not just issues like Israel / Palestine / Hamas, either.
    I think there's a bit of colonialist mentality on both sides of the debate in this country, the idea that we must have a position. Maybe it's just a really bloody complicated issue, it is a zero sum game, there are no goodies and baddies, there is no neat solution, it is a long way away and we don't need to get overly involved other than doing what we can to lower the bloodshed. It's a very sad situation but when you have people disputing who has ownership over land and then you throw a load of religious mumbo jumbo into the equation too it's unsurprising it is so intractable.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

    You can probably get a gig replacing Fox or Sideshow God on GB News with rank patter like that.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598

    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    @Farooq is a troll and a complete and utter f**king d***head.

    However, clenching my teeth, he did at least make vaguely half-intelligent posts at time, and hadn't yet crossed the boundary for being so deeply unpleasant and toxic that he needed evicting from the site, so I wouldn't support his expulsion.

    I trust he will return after a few days.
    People come, people go. So what.

    I don’t mind Faarooq, but it’s all getting a bit like CHB when he was crying for some departed posters to return and then promptly flounced himself. It’s bizarre when people are nostalgic For posters on a message board.

    People get far too invested in these debates and discussions. Especially on fucking Israel. Which is why I avoid the topic in any depth. No good ever comes out of it and on Twitter it’s far worse.
    I agree with getting too invested, but some people of evil want good people to have exactly the attitude of: "The conversation on this issue is far too toxic: I'll keep out."

    Hence leaving the playing field to the extremists. And it's not just issues like Israel / Palestine / Hamas, either.
    But that’s always been the real success of PB; unlike most other internet discussion sites, especially on politics, it manages to avoid descending into an abusive bear pit, despite the occasional late night efforts of some.
    Makes it informative, too. Civilised …. dare I say liberal ….. discussion is always better in leading to appreciation of others views than just shouting.
    Oh? Farooq gone? Shame. Ditto FRankBooth.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,100

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
    I don’t think Tone would have pursued Brexit, Rwanda or the War on Woke, Alan.
    Nah he was too busy killing half a million Iraqis, pissing away billions on computer systems that didnt work (and were quietly scrapped) and passing thousands of pointless laws.

    The Tories are simply Blairism lite and not very good at it. At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

    People forget how illiberal New Labour were.

    These are currently in the news for all the wrong reasons. Only one of many measures that eroded our civil liberties.

    https://prisonreformtrust.org.uk/project/imprisonment-for-public-protection-ipp/
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,660
    MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    Brown gets off rather lightly there. So does May. On a damage per day count Truss has really played a blinder.

    Anyway, add things up and what it’s saying is:

    Tory PMs: 59%
    Labour PMs: 21%

    Not massively far away from the LLG vs Tory scores, though marginally worse for Tories.
  • Non-medical staff learning brain surgery ‘on the job’ in NHS
    Doctors say growing use of assistants is ‘indulgence of an unregulated professional' and detrimental to patients

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/07/non-medical-staff-learn-neurosurgery-on-the-job/ (£££)

    Doctors, who needs 'em?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
    I don’t think Tone would have pursued Brexit, Rwanda or the War on Woke, Alan.
    Nah he was too busy killing half a million Iraqis, pissing away billions on computer systems that didnt work (and were quietly scrapped) and passing thousands of pointless laws.

    The Tories are simply Blairism lite and not very good at it. At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

    History suggests that is never going to happen, though? What sometimes gets called the political class - other less complimentary terms are available - will continue to keep power mostly to themselves, offering just enough choice to contain any pressure on the system, and if they get the latter wrong, far from “getting back to reality”, some more revolutionary figures will emerge and put a lot more distance between us and reality.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    Carnyx said:

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
    I don’t think Tone would have pursued Brexit, Rwanda or the War on Woke, Alan.
    Nah he was too busy killing half a million Iraqis, pissing away billions on computer systems that didnt work (and were quietly scrapped) and passing thousands of pointless laws.

    The Tories are simply Blairism lite and not very good at it. At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

    By the way, just seen your post from yesterday. As you are clearly unable to see a link which I provided in the previous email, as I pointed out at the time, I suggest a visit to Specsavers (not necessarily Barnard's Castle).
    I remember the days when we had Scotnats who could actually dish out an insult.

    Ask malc for lessons
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598

    Carnyx said:

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
    I don’t think Tone would have pursued Brexit, Rwanda or the War on Woke, Alan.
    Nah he was too busy killing half a million Iraqis, pissing away billions on computer systems that didnt work (and were quietly scrapped) and passing thousands of pointless laws.

    The Tories are simply Blairism lite and not very good at it. At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

    By the way, just seen your post from yesterday. As you are clearly unable to see a link which I provided in the previous email, as I pointed out at the time, I suggest a visit to Specsavers (not necessarily Barnard's Castle).
    I remember the days when we had Scotnats who could actually dish out an insult.

    Ask malc for lessons
    Insult? I'm being helpful.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    Dura_Ace said:

    At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

    You can probably get a gig replacing Fox or Sideshow God on GB News with rank patter like that.
    Well its like your Lord Flasheart schtick were just creatures of our time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    Non-medical staff learning brain surgery ‘on the job’ in NHS
    Doctors say growing use of assistants is ‘indulgence of an unregulated professional' and detrimental to patients

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/07/non-medical-staff-learn-neurosurgery-on-the-job/ (£££)

    Doctors, who needs 'em?

    There was an interesting piece recently about a brain operation that I had many years ago, which they’re now training AI to do, if not, yet, physically. The results from this research project seem genuinely impressive; the AI is able quickly to gain more experience from observing recorded operations than even the most expert surgeon would in a lifetime.
  • This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598
    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    They are going travelling for some months, so a good time to switch off.

    @Farooq objected to a few other posters calling for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and expulsion from their remaining lands.

    I don't think our site or country can usefully contribute to resolving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, so try to stay out of it, but is difficult to tolerate reading a site calling for further war crimes as answer to war crimes.

    PB benefits from a diversity of voices and opinions, and is generally civil compared to other sites, but when any poster dominates thread after thread then it loses that charm.
    Good post.
  • Penddu2 said:

    Some Leonesque comments on Israel- Hamas situation - this is going to escalate...badly.
    This attack might have been conducted by Hamas but was directed by Iran. Iran want to create conflict to derail the upcoming Saudi/UAE-Israel peace talks. Before the year ends I expect to see Iran and Saudi in a state of war - with troubles in Bahrain and Qatar.
    Sorry for the doom...

    At least it would remove the godawful Qatar and Saudi grand prix from next year's F1 calendar
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302

    This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more

    Labour's last government signed off with "theres no money". Perhaps if they had left some we'd all be in better shape.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    edited October 2023
    Taz said:

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
    I don’t think Tone would have pursued Brexit, Rwanda or the War on Woke, Alan.
    Nah he was too busy killing half a million Iraqis, pissing away billions on computer systems that didnt work (and were quietly scrapped) and passing thousands of pointless laws.

    The Tories are simply Blairism lite and not very good at it. At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

    People forget how illiberal New Labour were.

    The authoritarianism took a while to emerge, as I recall, and was really only a thing once they realised they had a hold on power for the foreseeable. In the first term there were some refreshing changes, back in the day of Cook’s ethical foreign policy, devolution, and the first steps toward voting reform.

    In the end, they did more damage than good to civil liberties and other liberal causes and principles. And they pretty much killed off independent local government, with all their legislation and targets and nannying initiatives and council funding becoming more and more tied to doing precisely whatever central government wanted.

    Starmer and Streeting and the rest show less liberal tendency now than Blair and Co did in opposition, which doesn’t augur well. And in an era where new money will be hard to come by, I strongly expect they will try and get more and more control over all of the existing money.

    Rory Stewart’s thinking is more encouraging as a more intelligent take on where we should go, but of course he’s already a fringe figure, and conservative liberalism doesn’t long survive contact with power.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,993
    edited October 2023
    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    They are going travelling for some months, so a good time to switch off.

    @Farooq objected to a few other posters calling for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and expulsion from their remaining lands.

    I don't think our site or country can usefully contribute to resolving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, so try to stay out of it, but is difficult to tolerate reading a site calling for further war crimes as answer to war crimes.

    PB benefits from a diversity of voices and opinions, and is generally civil compared to other sites, but when any poster dominates thread after thread then it loses that charm.
    One poster advocated genocide and another particularly loud poster last night graphically proposed a fate for girls/ young women held hostage by Hamas. Clearly a very, very concerning and challenging situation, and one has to fear for their safety, but projecting the tragedy as a race fuelled masturbatory fantasy (the poster's) was vile.

    So I comment not on the issue, which is way beyond my understanding, but the quality of posting.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,640

    This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more

    BBC rundown of how the alternate transport spending pledges are unravelling: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67018666
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,660
    edited October 2023

    This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more

    Labour's last government signed off with "theres no money". Perhaps if they had left some we'd all be in better shape.
    The public finances were in significantly better shape in 2010 than they are now. That’s the “hilarious” thing about our strong and stable fiscally responsible 13 years of Tory.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160
    Sunak's stupid HS2 u-turn is one of the worst policy changes I have seen in a very long time.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160

    This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more

    BBC rundown of how the alternate transport spending pledges are unravelling: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67018666
    This is how they have 'governed':

    "A new station for Bradford

    There will be investment of £2bn to include a "brand new" railway station in Bradford.

    That was previously cancelled in 2021 by Boris Johnson's government, reinstated by Liz Truss in 2022 and axed again when Rishi Sunak took office." (BBC)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160

    Penddu2 said:

    Some Leonesque comments on Israel- Hamas situation - this is going to escalate...badly.
    This attack might have been conducted by Hamas but was directed by Iran. Iran want to create conflict to derail the upcoming Saudi/UAE-Israel peace talks. Before the year ends I expect to see Iran and Saudi in a state of war - with troubles in Bahrain and Qatar.
    Sorry for the doom...

    At least it would remove the godawful Qatar and Saudi grand prix from next year's F1 calendar
    Saudi's are after the world cup as well iirc.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,921
    edited October 2023

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
    I don’t think Tone would have pursued Brexit, Rwanda or the War on Woke, Alan.
    He would have in about two seconds if he thought it would win him a few extra votes. Blairism (and Clintonism for that matter) was just about winning elections by colonising the centre ground - and, in the benign economic climate of the time, it was spectacularly successful in doing so. It was only when Blair himself partly abandoned it and went to war in Iraq for ideological reasons that it started to come apart.

    Even to call it an -ism rather oversells it I think because that implies a guiding ideology. When Randolph Churchill was asked what Tory Democracy was, he replied “To tell the truth I don’t know myself what Tory Democracy is, but I believe it to be principally opportunism.” And that's as good a definition of Blairism (or Cameronism or Sunakism or Starmerism) as I've ever heard.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    They are going travelling for some months, so a good time to switch off.

    @Farooq objected to a few other posters calling for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and expulsion from their remaining lands.

    I don't think our site or country can usefully contribute to resolving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, so try to stay out of it, but is difficult to tolerate reading a site calling for further war crimes as answer to war crimes.

    PB benefits from a diversity of voices and opinions, and is generally civil compared to other sites, but when any poster dominates thread after thread then it loses that charm.
    One poster advocated genocide and another particularly loud poster last night graphically proposed a fate for girls/ young women held hostage by Hamas. Clearly a very, very concerning and challenging situation, and one has to fear for their safety, but projecting the tragedy as a race fuelled masturbatory fantasy was vile.

    So I comment not on the issue, which is way beyond my understanding, but the quality of posting.
    If it is the post I remember it was not advocating for or proposing a fate for the young girls but describing what was very likely to happen to them based on what we have already seen happen.

    Rape has always been used as a weapon by men against women in wartime. Saying this does not make one an advocate for it.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    Interesting list; people have it wrong tbh; I’d put Cameron clear top, probably followed by Brown and then Truss. Johnson’s premiership was too fuddled by Covid to draw economic conclusions, I think.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    TimS said:

    This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more

    Labour's last government signed off with "theres no money". Perhaps if they had left some we'd all be in better shape.
    The public finances were in significantly better shape in 2010 than they are now. That’s the “hilarious” thing about our strong and stable fiscally responsible 13 years of Tory.
    While you introduce that arbitrary caesura it simply reminds me that the public finances have been in poor shape since 2001. None of the current crop of politicos have had a grip for the last two decades. They have spent billions on their pet projects, ignored infrastructure and we are now stuck with the results. Blair, heavy Blair lite none of it works.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,356

    Non-medical staff learning brain surgery ‘on the job’ in NHS
    Doctors say growing use of assistants is ‘indulgence of an unregulated professional' and detrimental to patients

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/07/non-medical-staff-learn-neurosurgery-on-the-job/ (£££)

    Doctors, who needs 'em?

    There is a lot about this on medical Social Media.

    There is a long tradition of non-medically trained assistants, from scrub nurses to other professions such as physiotherapists or radiographers, but these new roles of "Physician Associate" and "Anaesthetic Associate" are new to the UK. They are long established in the USA and I have also worked with them in Africa.

    All other paramedical professions have their own regulatory bodies , but these new PA and AA roles do not at present. Some Trusts and General Practices are using them interchangeably with Doctors, and they are often incentivised financially to do so.

    There is some protectiveness of medical perogative, but also genuine concern as to who is responsible for mistakes, and the diversion of skilled specialists to train these rather than the next generation of specialists.

    There was the tragic death of a 30 year old woman with textbook Deep Vein Thrombosis recently, seen only by a PA in General Practice on a number of occasions, and never seen by a qualified doctor.

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2023-07-06/debates/D98F2ABE-7B33-4748-B88E-ED7243469131/PhysicianAssociates

    Tragic medical errors are not unique to PAs, but there is general concern as to who is responsible in such cases.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,654
    Must say that I am surprised that the ground is a long way short of full for India-v-Australia. Ticket prices pricing out the locals in Chennai?
  • Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    They are going travelling for some months, so a good time to switch off.

    @Farooq objected to a few other posters calling for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and expulsion from their remaining lands.

    I don't think our site or country can usefully contribute to resolving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, so try to stay out of it, but is difficult to tolerate reading a site calling for further war crimes as answer to war crimes.

    PB benefits from a diversity of voices and opinions, and is generally civil compared to other sites, but when any poster dominates thread after thread then it loses that charm.
    I think the struggle for Israel is how it provides itself security without expelling people from Gaza. The status quo simply doesn't work, and a significant number there are pledged to the extermination of Israel and its people. Yes the hard right illegal settlers are crazy, yes they steal land, but they aren't pledged to genocide like Hamas.

    Gaza is an open sore on the region, allowed to be sustained by other states. Egypt likes to blame Israel but has its own border wall at the south to keep Gazans imprisoned. Iran is after a fight and seem to be responsible for all those missiles arriving into Gaza. Russia seem to have armed and trained Hamas with drones to drop bombs.

    Removing Gaza and pushing the people there back onto the arab diaspora isn't that crazy an idea. The idiocy of "refugee camps" has to end. These are not displaced refugees, they are several generations down the track from that. Resettle them in the other parts of the former Ottoman empire. So that they can also find peace.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598
    edited October 2023

    This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more

    BBC rundown of how the alternate transport spending pledges are unravelling: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67018666
    This is how they have 'governed':

    "A new station for Bradford

    There will be investment of £2bn to include a "brand new" railway station in Bradford.

    That was previously cancelled in 2021 by Boris Johnson's government, reinstated by Liz Truss in 2022 and axed again when Rishi Sunak took office." (BBC)
    Hadn't realised the Mancs will get slower (than today) and smaller (than promised - halfd length?) trains, too ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/07/sunaks-plan-to-run-part-of-hs2-on-existing-track-may-be-slower-than-existing-service
  • This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more

    Labour's last government signed off with "theres no money". Perhaps if they had left some we'd all be in better shape.
    Yes. And if "there is no money" was true back then, how true must it be now after your lot have vastly increased the amount of debt we are in?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,411

    eek said:

    MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    I suspect that poll reflects name recognition as much as anything else.
    It has to be. I would love to know the reasons why anyone said Blair because I really can’t think of any reasons - everyone else has a big issue you could attach to them but Blair’s time was benign
    He was a generally capable PM who got Iraq badly wrong. Hard to see why he should be blamed for the current economic situation.

    It rather makes you question how meaningful the poll might be.
    I’d say that he had a lot to do with the productivity issue. It was easier, politically, to reinforce the cheap labour route.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 876
    IanB2 said:

    Taz said:

    What this header fails to recognise is that it is their awful ideology which creates the failure to get things done.

    Given they have been pursuing Blairism for the last 13 years its easy to agree with that
    I don’t think Tone would have pursued Brexit, Rwanda or the War on Woke, Alan.
    Nah he was too busy killing half a million Iraqis, pissing away billions on computer systems that didnt work (and were quietly scrapped) and passing thousands of pointless laws.

    The Tories are simply Blairism lite and not very good at it. At some point - probably when weve run out of money - the country is going to have to ditch the metropolitan cowboys and get back to reality.

    People forget how illiberal New Labour were.

    The authoritarianism took a while to emerge, as I recall, and was really only a thing once they realised they had a hold on power for the foreseeable. In the first term there were some refreshing changes, back in the day of Cook’s ethical foreign policy, devolution, and the first steps toward voting reform.

    In the end, they did more damage than good to civil liberties and other liberal causes and principles. And they pretty much killed off independent local government, with all their legislation and targets and nannying initiatives and council funding becoming more and more tied to doing precisely whatever central government wanted.

    Starmer and Streeting and the rest show less liberal tendency now than Blair and Co did in opposition, which doesn’t augur well. And in an era where new money will be hard to come by, I strongly expect they will try and get more and more control over all of the existing money.

    Rory Stewart’s thinking is more encouraging as a more intelligent take on where we should go, but of course he’s already a fringe figure, and conservative liberalism doesn’t long survive contact with power.
    Plus, even though I like Rory Stewart (and probably would have voted for him against Corbyn had fate delivered us that choice), he doesn't have the burden of having to be electable.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,973
    Pah

    The thinking of Hamas/Iran probably went something like this...

    (1) Massive attack on Israel, with utterly disgusting brutal atrocities - to be widely broadcast on social media
    (2) Provoke the fury and wrath of Israel, to wipe out Gaza - again, capture the worst bits; broadcast it all
    (3) Trigger a wider Middle East conflagration in disgust, and ally with everyone to wipe out Israel
    (4) Be rewarded in this life or the next, as holy martyrs, for wiping the Jews and their state

    So, it's not dissimilar to the thinking of White Supremacists who want to provoke a race war that, ultimately, will work out in their favour.

    [Btw, I don't think (3) would happen regardless, but Netanyahu needs to be careful not to fall into a trap on (2)]

    On (3) I think there are a few variations that work for Iran.

    They might hope to trigger massive unrest in Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere, at the refusal of the leadership to support a way against Israel. If they could flip one country from having a broadly pro-West government to a pro-Iranian one it would be a massive win for them. How stable is Jordan, for example?

    It might provide a pretext to step up attacks on shipping in the Gulf, in an attempt to block oil and gas exports to punish the West for siding with Israel.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,216

    Hi to whoever it was who was asked "please give me 1 word to describe the Conservative Party" and said "Conservative".

    Except that is no longer true.
    They are a chaotic coalition of reactionaries and loopy radicals.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,598
    Foxy said:

    Non-medical staff learning brain surgery ‘on the job’ in NHS
    Doctors say growing use of assistants is ‘indulgence of an unregulated professional' and detrimental to patients

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/07/non-medical-staff-learn-neurosurgery-on-the-job/ (£££)

    Doctors, who needs 'em?

    There is a lot about this on medical Social Media.

    There is a long tradition of non-medically trained assistants, from scrub nurses to other professions such as physiotherapists or radiographers, but these new roles of "Physician Associate" and "Anaesthetic Associate" are new to the UK. They are long established in the USA and I have also worked with them in Africa.

    All other paramedical professions have their own regulatory bodies , but these new PA and AA roles do not at present. Some Trusts and General Practices are using them interchangeably with Doctors, and they are often incentivised financially to do so.

    There is some protectiveness of medical perogative, but also genuine concern as to who is responsible for mistakes, and the diversion of skilled specialists to train these rather than the next generation of specialists.

    There was the tragic death of a 30 year old woman with textbook Deep Vein Thrombosis recently, seen only by a PA in General Practice on a number of occasions, and never seen by a qualified doctor.

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2023-07-06/debates/D98F2ABE-7B33-4748-B88E-ED7243469131/PhysicianAssociates

    Tragic medical errors are not unique to PAs, but there is general concern as to who is responsible in such cases.
    Do they have (can they?) liability insurance? Or does the employing NHS trust pick up the tab? Must be a real risk for them personally though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,216
    MikeL said:

    FPT: DELTAPOLL (Mail on Sunday):

    Lab 43 (-1)
    Con 28 (+2)
    LD 12 (=)

    Numerous other Qs but this one is a bit different and interesting:

    Q: Over the last 30 years we have had 8 PMs. Who is most to blame for the UK's current economic situation?

    Johnson 20
    Blair 16
    Cameron 15
    Truss 13
    May 6
    Brown 5
    Sunak 4
    Major 1

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606369/Rishi-Sunak-rights-women-Sir-Keir-Starmer-flip-flopper-policy.html

    Truss scored remarkably well on the damage to time in office metric - which shows the poll is a nonsense.
    Incompetent as she was, the idea that she did quite so much damage in so little time is risible. The UK's problems are far deeper seated than that.
    Sunak should score way higher, too.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544
    Foxy said:

    Non-medical staff learning brain surgery ‘on the job’ in NHS
    Doctors say growing use of assistants is ‘indulgence of an unregulated professional' and detrimental to patients

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/07/non-medical-staff-learn-neurosurgery-on-the-job/ (£££)

    Doctors, who needs 'em?

    There is a lot about this on medical Social Media.

    There is a long tradition of non-medically trained assistants, from scrub nurses to other professions such as physiotherapists or radiographers, but these new roles of "Physician Associate" and "Anaesthetic Associate" are new to the UK. They are long established in the USA and I have also worked with them in Africa.

    All other paramedical professions have their own regulatory bodies , but these new PA and AA roles do not at present. Some Trusts and General Practices are using them interchangeably with Doctors, and they are often incentivised financially to do so.

    There is some protectiveness of medical perogative, but also genuine concern as to who is responsible for mistakes, and the diversion of skilled specialists to train these rather than the next generation of specialists.

    There was the tragic death of a 30 year old woman with textbook Deep Vein Thrombosis recently, seen only by a PA in General Practice on a number of occasions, and never seen by a qualified doctor.

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2023-07-06/debates/D98F2ABE-7B33-4748-B88E-ED7243469131/PhysicianAssociates

    Tragic medical errors are not unique to PAs, but there is general concern as to who is responsible in such cases.
    Point of order: surely 'scrub nurses... physiotherapists or radiographers' are in fact medically trained?
  • This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more

    BBC rundown of how the alternate transport spending pledges are unravelling: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67018666
    This is how they have 'governed':

    "A new station for Bradford

    There will be investment of £2bn to include a "brand new" railway station in Bradford.

    That was previously cancelled in 2021 by Boris Johnson's government, reinstated by Liz Truss in 2022 and axed again when Rishi Sunak took office." (BBC)
    Even Britain can't waste £2bn on a new station. The NN release said it would allow a 12 minute journey time to Huddersfield - so a new high speed line - and 30 minutes to Manchester. Via NPR and some exciting maths regarding journeytime and even more exciting maths regarding costs. Not that we can possibly state journey times as "Manchester" is via a route not yet fixed at a cost not yet agreed to a station not yet agreed.

    It is - putting it bluntly - a lie. Delivery promised in the 2040s providing that it passes the usual treasury funding tests which it won't. I don't know who I feel more sorry for - the people this was aimed at ('these idiots will believe any crap we feed them') or the few people who still now parrot the £36bn of investment as if it is real and that people near them welcome it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 27,993
    edited October 2023
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    They are going travelling for some months, so a good time to switch off.

    @Farooq objected to a few other posters calling for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and expulsion from their remaining lands.

    I don't think our site or country can usefully contribute to resolving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, so try to stay out of it, but is difficult to tolerate reading a site calling for further war crimes as answer to war crimes.

    PB benefits from a diversity of voices and opinions, and is generally civil compared to other sites, but when any poster dominates thread after thread then it loses that charm.
    One poster advocated genocide and another particularly loud poster last night graphically proposed a fate for girls/ young women held hostage by Hamas. Clearly a very, very concerning and challenging situation, and one has to fear for their safety, but projecting the tragedy as a race fuelled masturbatory fantasy was vile.

    So I comment not on the issue, which is way beyond my understanding, but the quality of posting.
    If it is the post I remember it was not advocating for or proposing a fate for the young girls but describing what was very likely to happen to them based on what we have already seen happen.

    Rape has always been used as a weapon by men against women in wartime. Saying this does not make one an advocate for it.
    Perhaps it is my snowflake sensitivity but I was offended by the unnecessarily graphic nature of the post. Did we need anything more descriptive than "rape" and "murder" on this site?

    It is of course necessary for the reason I suggested earlier or if one wants to differentiate the one- sided barbarism of one particular group against another. In this instance the poster's accusation is reality, but why the graphic picture?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302

    This isn't Tory incompetence - its mendaciousness. A deliberate choice to smash as many things as possible, salting the earth for Labour so that they can then postion Labour as the party who screwed everything up.

    Sunak stood at his conference lectern railing against government failures, and that only he could lead the change needed to fix the country. As if he, and his party, weren't the people who had wrecked everything.

    Never mind ballsy it is simply fantasy. When people keep ramping the supposed £36bn to be spent on northern transport, even as the reality is exposed more and more, it shows that they are so utterly disconnected from reality that they will swallow any lie as truth.

    The Tories have had success in weaponising ignorance and stupidity. Polling shows that people have seen through their schtick and aren't listening any more

    Labour's last government signed off with "theres no money". Perhaps if they had left some we'd all be in better shape.
    Yes. And if "there is no money" was true back then, how true must it be now after your lot have vastly increased the amount of debt we are in?
    I do rather enjoy the blank patches in your memory. Are you saying there should have been no support for people during Covid ? I seem to remember Starmer calling out for even more than Lord Bountiful Johnson. And on cost of living should we have told people to freeze last winter ?

    An attack on mismanagement of HS2 or government current spending would of course be justified, but if HMG were to impose cuts you would be one of the first to break out in hysterics and say its was wrong.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    Good morning

    The Israel conflict is terrible with unknown consequences and outcome

    This article highlights just how perilous the world's economy's are and why there is absolutely no money to spend by governments

    Also sorry to see @Farooq and @FrankBooth leave this forum but at times it does seem like an echo chamber, but it is important that as many different views are expressed as possible otherwise it will become an echo chamber

    I hope they both return

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/10/08/britain-heading-another-black-monday-stock-market-crash/

    Why has @Farooq left? Great loss. I really enjoyed his posts. He often made me laugh out loud. Don't know enough about Frank, but generally sad to see anyone leave regardless of their views. I can only think of one exception, and that person was banned so clearly I wasn't alone in that view.
    They are going travelling for some months, so a good time to switch off.

    @Farooq objected to a few other posters calling for the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and expulsion from their remaining lands.

    I don't think our site or country can usefully contribute to resolving the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, so try to stay out of it, but is difficult to tolerate reading a site calling for further war crimes as answer to war crimes.

    PB benefits from a diversity of voices and opinions, and is generally civil compared to other sites, but when any poster dominates thread after thread then it loses that charm.
    One poster advocated genocide and another particularly loud poster last night graphically proposed a fate for girls/ young women held hostage by Hamas. Clearly a very, very concerning and challenging situation, and one has to fear for their safety, but projecting the tragedy as a race fuelled masturbatory fantasy was vile.

    So I comment not on the issue, which is way beyond my understanding, but the quality of posting.
    If it is the post I remember it was not advocating for or proposing a fate for the young girls but describing what was very likely to happen to them based on what we have already seen happen.

    Rape has always been used as a weapon by men against women in wartime. Saying this does not make one an advocate for it.
    Hamas were rounding up women and girls for kidnap. Having already raped at least one and then paraded her bloodied clothes whilst shouting about how great God is.

    Ironically it appears that many of the kidnap and rape victims were peace protestors.
  • Listening to Starmer on BBC just now his answer to the waiting lists is to pay doctors overtime to work evenings and weekends even though the overtime rate is less than they earn in the private sector

    I would be interested in hearing the views of @Foxy and others on this
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,544

    Listening to Starmer on BBC just now his answer to the waiting lists is to pay doctors overtime to work evenings and weekends even though the overtime rate is less than they earn in the private sector

    I would be interested in hearing the views of @Foxy and others on this

    In the short term, what alternative is there?
  • IanB2 said:

    More on topic than the discussion so far this morning, today’s Sunday Rawnsley:

    The Tory leader’s attempt to rebrand himself as an agent of “change” was the audacity of the desperate. The essential smallness of Mr Sunak’s speech came at the end of a Tory conference in Manchester that had the smell of a party preparing for opposition.

    The absence of a record that they can boast about means the Conservatives will rely even more heavily than they usually do on trying to trash Labour’s credibility and especially the character of its leader. The Tories grasp that they are unlikely to succeed in convincing voters that Sir Keir is too scary to be allowed anywhere near Number 10. “People can see he is not Corbyn,” says one senior Conservative. They are seeking to frame the Labour leader as a shifty opportunist who will say anything to get elected.

    Quite something for Sunak to try to paint someone else as a shifty opportunist who will say anything…..
    Well as they say, it takes one to know one.
This discussion has been closed.