There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
This exchange is a perfect example of why, very sadly, when this conflict is the subject of pb I find the comments simply unreadable. You two aren’t talking to each other. At all. You might as well boil your own heads in a vat of oil for all the good it will do.
Firstly, fuck off.
Secondly, if you haven't fucked off yet, I'm responding directly and, I have to say, rather obviously to anyone with a brain cell, to this: "The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII."
The clue is in my exactly duplicating of the language: "Nobody deserves to be deported for things that..."
Thirdly, fuck off.
But when two tribes go to war repeatedly and one refuses another's right to exist then eventually enough is enough. That point was reached in WWII. The Red Army deserves a lot of criticism for most of what it did, including the ethnic cleansing in Crimea for instance deporting the Tatars, but for deporting the Germans who had elected the Nazis and repeatedly sort to exterminate people?
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's very right to exist, and the Palestinians in Gaza are supporting Hamas. Eventually removing from Israel's land, which includes Gaza, those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist may be a last resort.
Hopefully it can be avoided and another way to defeat Hamas and enforce a peace can be found. But history hasn't been kind with that yet.
Ok, let me put it this way. One of the strongest pillars of feudalism was the dangerous-world-self-defence pillar. It was the way that feudal lords sought the buy-in from the peasantry. That's the way service, including military service, to feudal lord was justified. That, plus religious justifications.
Feeding the view that Israel is a threat to civilians in the minds of ordinary innocent Palestinians would be a mistake, because it drives them closer to the likes of Hamas, who are the feudal lords in this analogy. Now, you've talked on this thread about Israeli restraint and you have a good point there. I won't dwell today on the flip side of that, the low-level violence that Israel has meted out. That's for another day. Suffice to say that Israel has conducted itself well in some ways and poorly in others. If Israel were to turn full ethnic-cleansy as a result of this, that will strengthen the ties between Hamas and the people. It will vindicate, in the eyes of some, Hamas's argument, which is not something you or I want to see.
If you want to free people from the bonds of fealty to Hamas, you don't do it by deliberately targeting civilians. You only deliberately target civilians if you are trying to wipe out a country or a way of life. That is what Hamas are doing. Israel mustn't become more like Hamas, Hamas should become more like Israel.
What will the World do when Gaza gets pummeled and thousands of innocents die? Let me tell you - nothing! Maybe condemnation from non-aligned South but the duplicitous West will say and do fuck all.
There is a whole lot of upset on X because India has made an announcement supporting Israel. If that's who you mean by the non-aligned South and not Guildford.
A shock announcement from the Muslim-hating BJP government.
I agree huge surprise but the point is that India is part of the non-aligned South that apparently may condemn Israel.
Modi has his tongue up Putin's arse. Not as non-aligned as they used to be.
I find that a bit hard to understand. What does Russia have to offer them?
A role model of being an authoritarian kleptocracy with the same people in power for a generation.
There is a video of an Israeli girl, kidnapped by Hamas, being thrown around by Hamas militants, in and out of a car
Don't worry, I will not link
It has been pointed out on TwitterX that the bloodstains on her clothes show that she has, almost certainly, been brutally raped, many times. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it
If I was an Israeli, seeing that, I would want Netanyahu to go in and kill every single person in Gaza, the steel would enter my soul
Killing everyone is far too far.
The humane thing to do is deport them.
Ethnic cleansing of Gaza would be a bloodbath and probably drag the whole of the Middle East into a war.
Anybody who thinks there is a solution is delusional. Al-Quds has changed hands 50-odd times over the centuries and will again in the future. The idea that there is a workable answer to all this is laughable.
There is a video of an Israeli girl, kidnapped by Hamas, being thrown around by Hamas militants, in and out of a car
Don't worry, I will not link
It has been pointed out on TwitterX that the bloodstains on her clothes show that she has, almost certainly, been brutally raped, many times. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it
If I was an Israeli, seeing that, I would want Netanyahu to go in and kill every single person in Gaza, the steel would enter my soul
Killing everyone is far too far.
The humane thing to do is deport them.
Ethnic cleansing of Gaza would be a bloodbath and probably drag the whole of the Middle East into a war.
Anybody who thinks there is a solution is delusional. Al-Quds has changed hands 50-odd times over the centuries and will again in the future. The idea that there is a workable answer to all this is laughable.
Nonsense
Even the most endless of conflicts come to an end. I remember the despair which surrounded Northern Ireland in the early 80s. It was a centuries-old war that would go on forever, and there was nothing to be done about it. And yet, here we are, it is over
Thankfully that was achieved by compromise and vision. But intractable wars can also end when one side gains a commanding advantage and annihilates the other
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
This exchange is a perfect example of why, very sadly, when this conflict is the subject of pb I find the comments simply unreadable. You two aren’t talking to each other. At all. You might as well boil your own heads in a vat of oil for all the good it will do.
Firstly, fuck off.
Secondly, if you haven't fucked off yet, I'm responding directly and, I have to say, rather obviously to anyone with a brain cell, to this: "The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII."
The clue is in my exactly duplicating of the language: "Nobody deserves to be deported for things that..."
Thirdly, fuck off.
But when two tribes go to war repeatedly and one refuses another's right to exist then eventually enough is enough. That point was reached in WWII. The Red Army deserves a lot of criticism for most of what it did, including the ethnic cleansing in Crimea for instance deporting the Tatars, but for deporting the Germans who had elected the Nazis and repeatedly sort to exterminate people?
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's very right to exist, and the Palestinians in Gaza are supporting Hamas. Eventually removing from Israel's land, which includes Gaza, those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist may be a last resort.
Hopefully it can be avoided and another way to defeat Hamas and enforce a peace can be found. But history hasn't been kind with that yet.
Ok, let me put it this way. One of the strongest pillars of feudalism was the dangerous-world-self-defence pillar. It was the way that feudal lords sought the buy-in from the peasantry. That's the way service, including military service, to feudal lord was justified. That, plus religious justifications.
Feeding the view that Israel is a threat to civilians in the minds of ordinary innocent Palestinians would be a mistake, because it drives them closer to the likes of Hamas, who are the feudal lords in this analogy. Now, you've talked on this thread about Israeli restraint and you have a good point there. I won't dwell today on the flip side of that, the low-level violence that Israel has meted out. That's for another day. Suffice to say that Israel has conducted itself well in some ways and poorly in others. If Israel were to turn full ethnic-cleansy as a result of this, that will strengthen the ties between Hamas and the people. It will vindicate, in the eyes of some, Hamas's argument, which is not something you or I want to see.
If you want to free people from the bonds of fealty to Hamas, you don't do it by deliberately targeting civilians. You only deliberately target civilians if you are trying to wipe out a country or a way of life. That is what Hamas are doing. Israel mustn't become more like Hamas, Hamas should become more like Israel.
Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians. They have shown a generosity neither Egypt not Transjordan showed.
What thanks has it ever got them?
If they expel the "Palestinians" from Israel so that they can no longer attack from Gaza then what happens next?
Palestine doesn't exist. It has not for seventy years. If it can't co exist with Israel then saying goodbye and moving them on elsewhere may be the only solution that works.
There is a video of an Israeli girl, kidnapped by Hamas, being thrown around by Hamas militants, in and out of a car
Don't worry, I will not link
It has been pointed out on TwitterX that the bloodstains on her clothes show that she has, almost certainly, been brutally raped, many times. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it
If I was an Israeli, seeing that, I would want Netanyahu to go in and kill every single person in Gaza, the steel would enter my soul
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
After ninety years of facing existential threats seeking to destroy their right to even live, then when is enough enough?
Israel deserves to exist in peace and security. That's the first priority.
There are plent of other Arab states the Arabs can live in as a last resort if they refuse to live peacefully side by side with Israel. There is no other secure Jewish homeland.
Israelis have been remarkably generous and tolerant. Not that they get much thanks for that. China, Russia etc would have committed ethnic cleansing and made the facts on the ground irreversibly fifty or seventy years ago.
Yes yes, we both agree that what Israel faces is intolerable and that Israel has every right to defend itself. It's just that ethnic cleansing goes beyond that. If Israel need to send in troops to Palestinian territory, if Israel needs to assassinate leaders of terrorist organisations, these things are drastic but within the realm of acceptability in the face of this kind of provocation.
But not shifting populations out of their homes. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing even if you think there a nice options for the ethnics you are cleansing. Doing that would make Israel as bad as that which it opposes. And it would be a gift to its enemies because it would recruit ever more people to the anti-Israel cause. It would be wrong AND a mistake.
What is the solution then to terminate the threat from Hamas once and for all?
I don't have one, I just have a view that there are certain things that would make it worse.
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
This exchange is a perfect example of why, very sadly, when this conflict is the subject of pb I find the comments simply unreadable. You two aren’t talking to each other. At all. You might as well boil your own heads in a vat of oil for all the good it will do.
Firstly, fuck off.
Secondly, if you haven't fucked off yet, I'm responding directly and, I have to say, rather obviously to anyone with a brain cell, to this: "The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII."
The clue is in my exactly duplicating of the language: "Nobody deserves to be deported for things that..."
Thirdly, fuck off.
But when two tribes go to war repeatedly and one refuses another's right to exist then eventually enough is enough. That point was reached in WWII. The Red Army deserves a lot of criticism for most of what it did, including the ethnic cleansing in Crimea for instance deporting the Tatars, but for deporting the Germans who had elected the Nazis and repeatedly sort to exterminate people?
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's very right to exist, and the Palestinians in Gaza are supporting Hamas. Eventually removing from Israel's land, which includes Gaza, those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist may be a last resort.
Hopefully it can be avoided and another way to defeat Hamas and enforce a peace can be found. But history hasn't been kind with that yet.
Ok, let me put it this way. One of the strongest pillars of feudalism was the dangerous-world-self-defence pillar. It was the way that feudal lords sought the buy-in from the peasantry. That's the way service, including military service, to feudal lord was justified. That, plus religious justifications.
Feeding the view that Israel is a threat to civilians in the minds of ordinary innocent Palestinians would be a mistake, because it drives them closer to the likes of Hamas, who are the feudal lords in this analogy. Now, you've talked on this thread about Israeli restraint and you have a good point there. I won't dwell today on the flip side of that, the low-level violence that Israel has meted out. That's for another day. Suffice to say that Israel has conducted itself well in some ways and poorly in others. If Israel were to turn full ethnic-cleansy as a result of this, that will strengthen the ties between Hamas and the people. It will vindicate, in the eyes of some, Hamas's argument, which is not something you or I want to see.
If you want to free people from the bonds of fealty to Hamas, you don't do it by deliberately targeting civilians. You only deliberately target civilians if you are trying to wipe out a country or a way of life. That is what Hamas are doing. Israel mustn't become more like Hamas, Hamas should become more like Israel.
Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians. They have shown a generosity neither Egypt not Transjordan showed.
What thanks has it ever got them?
If they expel the "Palestinians" from Israel so that they can no longer attack from Gaza then what happens next?
Palestine doesn't exist. It has not for seventy years. If it can't co exist with Israel then saying goodbye and moving them on elsewhere may be the only solution that works.
"Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians..." 😂
There is a video of an Israeli girl, kidnapped by Hamas, being thrown around by Hamas militants, in and out of a car
Don't worry, I will not link
It has been pointed out on TwitterX that the bloodstains on her clothes show that she has, almost certainly, been brutally raped, many times. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it
If I was an Israeli, seeing that, I would want Netanyahu to go in and kill every single person in Gaza, the steel would enter my soul
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
After ninety years of facing existential threats seeking to destroy their right to even live, then when is enough enough?
Israel deserves to exist in peace and security. That's the first priority.
There are plent of other Arab states the Arabs can live in as a last resort if they refuse to live peacefully side by side with Israel. There is no other secure Jewish homeland.
Israelis have been remarkably generous and tolerant. Not that they get much thanks for that. China, Russia etc would have committed ethnic cleansing and made the facts on the ground irreversibly fifty or seventy years ago.
Yes yes, we both agree that what Israel faces is intolerable and that Israel has every right to defend itself. It's just that ethnic cleansing goes beyond that. If Israel need to send in troops to Palestinian territory, if Israel needs to assassinate leaders of terrorist organisations, these things are drastic but within the realm of acceptability in the face of this kind of provocation.
But not shifting populations out of their homes. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing even if you think there a nice options for the ethnics you are cleansing. Doing that would make Israel as bad as that which it opposes. And it would be a gift to its enemies because it would recruit ever more people to the anti-Israel cause. It would be wrong AND a mistake.
What is the solution then to terminate the threat from Hamas once and for all?
I don't have one, I just have a view that there are certain things that would make it worse.
Well if you don't have one, eventually someone who makes Netanyahu look moderate will.
If the stories about mass kidnapping are true, this is could be a disaster. Let's hope Hamas don't go full ISIS.
it doesn't look good, and it is ongoing
"As of half an hour ago. “The IDF has not yet gained control in any of the locations that involve terrorist infiltration in southern Israel. Residents are still in shelters and report that no Israeli security forces nor available medical staff are on site.”"
"Horrific. ‘"We are being slaughtered. There is no army. It has been 6 hours. People are begging for their lives," one Israeli in a southern kibbutz said.’"
The IDF will retake these places, that is certain. The question is what do they do next?
Limited strikes on terrorists in Gaza do not work. They will need to do more. Which will be bad for civilians imprisoned in Gaza. But what is the alternative?
Evacuate those civilians from Gaza and relocate them to an Arab or similar state where they can live in peace?
Egypt or Jordan should take them in since they're the ones who denied Palestine's right to exist originally, or possibly Iran since they're the ones who have fuelled Hamas for decades and encouraged Arafat to turn his back on peace when it was so close.
But Hamas et al hide in the civilian populations. So evacuate the civilians and you evacuate the terrorists as well.
Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response
It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?
Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
Militarily, they’ve scored a success in the short run. Beyond that, they’ll reap the whirlwind.
In terms of propaganda, they’ll get lots of backing from countries that are useless to them, while Israel will get lots of backing from the countries that matter.
More interesting is: what does Iran want? I am certain Iran is behind this. Hamas have been assisted, massively, by a major player, and that must be Iran
What is the "this" and what led up to it? (See among other things the provocation last week at Al Aqsa.)
The reports that Hamas attacked "by land, sea, and air" seem quite questionable given the blockade and the tight patrolling of the coastline in which even fishing vessels can be shot at if they go further than a certain distance out.
Al Jazeera is quoting Israeli media and military sources a lot. Iranian news agency IRNA's website is down. The Hamas website is down. Wafa.ps and PNN.ps are up but bitty. Their angle is mostly "sticky" in Irish republican terminology.
Edit: re. talk of ethnic cleansing: a massive bout of it just went on in Nagorno-Karabakh, carried out by the Azerbaijani dictatorship with its "one country, two states" ideology - and for those who don't know, by the second state Aliyev means Turkey, not NK. Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, whoever carries it out and whoever the victims are, but for some reason this particular instance hasn't been covered much outside of Armenia.
Certainly Azerbaijan was assisted by a major player. There's no doubt about that. In Russia there hasn't even been any strong TALK in response. The Russian government's attitude towards Armenia is Windsor Davies-ist. It's that if they want any support they can whistle for it because they're in the US camp now. Whoever assisted Azerbaijan it wasn't either Russia or Iran.
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
This exchange is a perfect example of why, very sadly, when this conflict is the subject of pb I find the comments simply unreadable. You two aren’t talking to each other. At all. You might as well boil your own heads in a vat of oil for all the good it will do.
Firstly, fuck off.
Secondly, if you haven't fucked off yet, I'm responding directly and, I have to say, rather obviously to anyone with a brain cell, to this: "The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII."
The clue is in my exactly duplicating of the language: "Nobody deserves to be deported for things that..."
Thirdly, fuck off.
But when two tribes go to war repeatedly and one refuses another's right to exist then eventually enough is enough. That point was reached in WWII. The Red Army deserves a lot of criticism for most of what it did, including the ethnic cleansing in Crimea for instance deporting the Tatars, but for deporting the Germans who had elected the Nazis and repeatedly sort to exterminate people?
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's very right to exist, and the Palestinians in Gaza are supporting Hamas. Eventually removing from Israel's land, which includes Gaza, those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist may be a last resort.
Hopefully it can be avoided and another way to defeat Hamas and enforce a peace can be found. But history hasn't been kind with that yet.
Ok, let me put it this way. One of the strongest pillars of feudalism was the dangerous-world-self-defence pillar. It was the way that feudal lords sought the buy-in from the peasantry. That's the way service, including military service, to feudal lord was justified. That, plus religious justifications.
Feeding the view that Israel is a threat to civilians in the minds of ordinary innocent Palestinians would be a mistake, because it drives them closer to the likes of Hamas, who are the feudal lords in this analogy. Now, you've talked on this thread about Israeli restraint and you have a good point there. I won't dwell today on the flip side of that, the low-level violence that Israel has meted out. That's for another day. Suffice to say that Israel has conducted itself well in some ways and poorly in others. If Israel were to turn full ethnic-cleansy as a result of this, that will strengthen the ties between Hamas and the people. It will vindicate, in the eyes of some, Hamas's argument, which is not something you or I want to see.
If you want to free people from the bonds of fealty to Hamas, you don't do it by deliberately targeting civilians. You only deliberately target civilians if you are trying to wipe out a country or a way of life. That is what Hamas are doing. Israel mustn't become more like Hamas, Hamas should become more like Israel.
Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians. They have shown a generosity neither Egypt not Transjordan showed.
What thanks has it ever got them?
If they expel the "Palestinians" from Israel so that they can no longer attack from Gaza then what happens next?
Palestine doesn't exist. It has not for seventy years. If it can't co exist with Israel then saying goodbye and moving them on elsewhere may be the only solution that works.
I think a lot of people would quarrel with your first sentence.
"Today should be a day of celebration for supporters of democracy and human rights worldwide, as Gazans break out of their open-air prison and Hamas fighters cross into their colonisers' territory. The struggle for freedom is rarely bloodless and we shouldn't apologise for it."
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response
It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?
Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
Militarily, they’ve scored a success in the short run. Beyond that, they’ll reap the whirlwind.
In terms of propaganda, they’ll get lots of backing from countries that are useless to them, while Israel will get lots of backing from the countries that matter.
More interesting is: what does Iran want? I am certain Iran is behind this. Hamas have been assisted, massively, by a major player, and that must be Iran
What is the "this" and what led up to it? (See among other things the provocation last week at Al Aqsa.)
The reports that Hamas attacked "by land, sea, and air" seem quite questionable given the blockade and the tight patrolling of the coastline in which even fishing vessels can be shot at if they go further than a certain distance out.
Al Jazeera is quoting Israeli media and military sources a lot. Iranian news agency IRNA's website is down. The Hamas website is down. Wafa.ps and PNN.ps are up but bitty. Their angle is mostly "sticky" in Irish republican terminology.
Edit: re. talk of ethnic cleansing: a massive bout of it just went on in Nagorno-Karabakh, carried out by the Azerbaijani dictatorship with its "one country, two states" ideology - and for those who don't know, by the second state Aliyev means Turkey, not NK. Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, whoever carries it out and whoever the victims are, but for some reason this particular instance hasn't been covered much outside of Armenia.
Certainly Azerbaijan was assisted by a major player. There's no doubt about that. In Russia there hasn't even been any strong TALK in response. The Russian government's attitude towards Armenia is Windsor Davies-ist. It's that if they want any support they can whistle for it because they're in the US camp now. Whoever assisted Azerbaijan it wasn't either Russia or Iran.
Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response
It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?
Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
Militarily, they’ve scored a success in the short run. Beyond that, they’ll reap the whirlwind.
In terms of propaganda, they’ll get lots of backing from countries that are useless to them, while Israel will get lots of backing from the countries that matter.
More interesting is: what does Iran want? I am certain Iran is behind this. Hamas have been assisted, massively, by a major player, and that must be Iran
What is the "this" and what led up to it? (See among other things the provocation last week at Al Aqsa.)
The reports that Hamas attacked "by land, sea, and air" seem quite questionable given the blockade and the tight patrolling of the coastline in which even fishing vessels can be shot at if they go further than a certain distance out.
Al Jazeera is quoting Israeli media and military sources a lot. Iranian news agency IRNA's website is down. The Hamas website is down. Wafa.ps and PNN.ps are up but bitty. Their angle is mostly "sticky" in Irish republican terminology.
Edit: re. talk of ethnic cleansing: a massive bout of it just went on in Nagorno-Karabakh, carried out by the Azerbaijani dictatorship with its "one country, two states" ideology - and for those who don't know, by the second state Aliyev means Turkey, not NK. Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, whoever carries it out and whoever the victims are, but for some reason this particular instance hasn't been covered much outside of Armenia.
Certainly Azerbaijan was assisted by a major player. There's no doubt about that. In Russia there hasn't even been any strong TALK in response. The Russian government's attitude towards Armenia is Windsor Davies-ist. It's that if they want any support they can whistle for it because they're in the US camp now. Whoever assisted Azerbaijan it wasn't either Russia or Iran.
And yes, Hamas attacked by sea as well. Here's the IDF taking out a couple of boats. There are other videos of them successfully landing
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
There is a video of an Israeli girl, kidnapped by Hamas, being thrown around by Hamas militants, in and out of a car
Don't worry, I will not link
It has been pointed out on TwitterX that the bloodstains on her clothes show that she has, almost certainly, been brutally raped, many times. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it
If I was an Israeli, seeing that, I would want Netanyahu to go in and kill every single person in Gaza, the steel would enter my soul
Killing everyone is far too far.
The humane thing to do is deport them.
Ethnic cleansing of Gaza would be a bloodbath and probably drag the whole of the Middle East into a war.
Anybody who thinks there is a solution is delusional. Al-Quds has changed hands 50-odd times over the centuries and will again in the future. The idea that there is a workable answer to all this is laughable.
Doubt they'd give a fuck. The population would either get booted out or absorbed, or a bit of both, and the world would move on.
Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response
It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?
Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
Militarily, they’ve scored a success in the short run. Beyond that, they’ll reap the whirlwind.
In terms of propaganda, they’ll get lots of backing from countries that are useless to them, while Israel will get lots of backing from the countries that matter.
More interesting is: what does Iran want? I am certain Iran is behind this. Hamas have been assisted, massively, by a major player, and that must be Iran
What is the "this" and what led up to it? (See among other things the provocation last week at Al Aqsa.)
The reports that Hamas attacked "by land, sea, and air" seem quite questionable given the blockade and the tight patrolling of the coastline in which even fishing vessels can be shot at if they go further than a certain distance out.
Al Jazeera is quoting Israeli media and military sources a lot. Iranian news agency IRNA's website is down. The Hamas website is down. Wafa.ps and PNN.ps are up but bitty. Their angle is mostly "sticky" in Irish republican terminology.
Edit: re. talk of ethnic cleansing: a massive bout of it just went on in Nagorno-Karabakh, carried out by the Azerbaijani dictatorship with its "one country, two states" ideology - and for those who don't know, by the second state Aliyev means Turkey, not NK. Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, whoever carries it out and whoever the victims are, but for some reason this particular instance hasn't been covered much outside of Armenia.
Certainly Azerbaijan was assisted by a major player. There's no doubt about that. In Russia there hasn't even been any strong TALK in response. The Russian government's attitude towards Armenia is Windsor Davies-ist. It's that if they want any support they can whistle for it because they're in the US camp now. Whoever assisted Azerbaijan it wasn't either Russia or Iran.
No, it was Turkey
Yes. And very successfully done.
Azerbaijan has also been armed by Israel.
With the US doing a job on Armenia itself.
All of this adds up to a change in the balance of power in the region away from Iran, which probably scares the bejeesus out of the Iranian government. This is the context of Gaza. Everyone knows Israel has a contingency plan for nuking Iran.
To judge from his discussion with Elon Musk, Benyamin Netanyahu believes Mutually Assured Destruction "kept the peace" betwen the US and the USSR (what a load of crap), but for some reason he doesn't want it between Israel and Iran. Barty might say there are limits to a victor's generosity towards worse humans.
There is a video of an Israeli girl, kidnapped by Hamas, being thrown around by Hamas militants, in and out of a car
Don't worry, I will not link
It has been pointed out on TwitterX that the bloodstains on her clothes show that she has, almost certainly, been brutally raped, many times. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it
If I was an Israeli, seeing that, I would want Netanyahu to go in and kill every single person in Gaza, the steel would enter my soul
Killing everyone is far too far.
The humane thing to do is deport them.
Ethnic cleansing of Gaza would be a bloodbath and probably drag the whole of the Middle East into a war.
Anybody who thinks there is a solution is delusional. Al-Quds has changed hands 50-odd times over the centuries and will again in the future. The idea that there is a workable answer to all this is laughable.
Nonsense
Even the most endless of conflicts come to an end. I remember the despair which surrounded Northern Ireland in the early 80s. It was a centuries-old war that would go on forever, and there was nothing to be done about it. And yet, here we are, it is over
Thankfully that was achieved by compromise and vision. But intractable wars can also end when one side gains a commanding advantage and annihilates the other
Theories on X that Hamas has embedded people in the militant platoons to take these videos and post them online, precisely so as to enrage Israelis and provoke the most brutal response
It may be true. But if it is true, what's the middlegame for Hamas, after Israel goes predictably mad?
Hamas has played a blinder. Netanyahu's reputation as pro-Trump, pro-Putin anti-democratic maniac has been glaringly exposed to the world in recent times. Israel won't get a shred of sympathy. In terms of propaganda, Hamas holds all the cards here.
Militarily, they’ve scored a success in the short run. Beyond that, they’ll reap the whirlwind.
In terms of propaganda, they’ll get lots of backing from countries that are useless to them, while Israel will get lots of backing from the countries that matter.
More interesting is: what does Iran want? I am certain Iran is behind this. Hamas have been assisted, massively, by a major player, and that must be Iran
What is the "this" and what led up to it? (See among other things the provocation last week at Al Aqsa.)
The reports that Hamas attacked "by land, sea, and air" seem quite questionable given the blockade and the tight patrolling of the coastline in which even fishing vessels can be shot at if they go further than a certain distance out.
Al Jazeera is quoting Israeli media and military sources a lot. Iranian news agency IRNA's website is down. The Hamas website is down. Wafa.ps and PNN.ps are up but bitty. Their angle is mostly "sticky" in Irish republican terminology.
Edit: re. talk of ethnic cleansing: a massive bout of it just went on in Nagorno-Karabakh, carried out by the Azerbaijani dictatorship with its "one country, two states" ideology - and for those who don't know, by the second state Aliyev means Turkey, not NK. Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, whoever carries it out and whoever the victims are, but for some reason this particular instance hasn't been covered much outside of Armenia.
Certainly Azerbaijan was assisted by a major player. There's no doubt about that. In Russia there hasn't even been any strong TALK in response. The Russian government's attitude towards Armenia is Windsor Davies-ist. It's that if they want any support they can whistle for it because they're in the US camp now. Whoever assisted Azerbaijan it wasn't either Russia or Iran.
No, it was Turkey
Yes. And very successfully done.
Azerbaijan has also been armed by Israel.
With the US doing a job on Armenia itself.
All of this adds up to a change in the balance of power in the region away from Iran, which probably scares the bejeesus out of the Iranian government.
And Iran's been stoking Hamas for years. Let Iran take the Gazans, see how much longer the conflict lasts.
There is a video of an Israeli girl, kidnapped by Hamas, being thrown around by Hamas militants, in and out of a car
Don't worry, I will not link
It has been pointed out on TwitterX that the bloodstains on her clothes show that she has, almost certainly, been brutally raped, many times. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it
If I was an Israeli, seeing that, I would want Netanyahu to go in and kill every single person in Gaza, the steel would enter my soul
Killing everyone is far too far.
The humane thing to do is deport them.
Ethnic cleansing of Gaza would be a bloodbath and probably drag the whole of the Middle East into a war.
Anybody who thinks there is a solution is delusional. Al-Quds has changed hands 50-odd times over the centuries and will again in the future. The idea that there is a workable answer to all this is laughable.
Nonsense
Even the most endless of conflicts come to an end. I remember the despair which surrounded Northern Ireland in the early 80s. It was a centuries-old war that would go on forever, and there was nothing to be done about it. And yet, here we are, it is over
Thankfully that was achieved by compromise and vision. But intractable wars can also end when one side gains a commanding advantage and annihilates the other
It's not over. Not by a long way.
You think Ireland will return to widespread violence, akin to the Troubles? I don't
As long as neither side makes any egregious errors, the conflict is done, apart from a few nutters
Off topic: But of interest to many of you: "Although Democratic voters unquestionably dominate the state — Biden defeated Trump by 17 points in Illinois in 2020 — the effect is exaggerated by district lines that have helped to give Democrats a 14-3 advantage in the state’s congressional delegation. In a comparison with a baseline map with no partisan advantage, Princeton researchers found that Illinois Democrats had given themselves three additional seats — a total matched only by Republicans in Texas." source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/07/illinois-congressional-map-gerrymandering/
In general, these efforts -- by both parties -- have eliminated competitive districts, and the moderates who often represented them. This particular effort forced moderate Republican Rodney Davis to run against Trumpista Mary Miller --no relation, I hasten to add. He lost.
(The Democrats in Illinois have bankrupted the state, and tolerated levels of crime in Chicago that should appall any decent person. But they are still pretty good at unscrupulous political tactics.)
Leftists abroad, from what I can tell, were not much interested in American gerrymandering -- when it was mostly done by Democrats. Now that the Republicans have caught up, they view it with horror -- or claim to, anyway.
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
This exchange is a perfect example of why, very sadly, when this conflict is the subject of pb I find the comments simply unreadable. You two aren’t talking to each other. At all. You might as well boil your own heads in a vat of oil for all the good it will do.
Firstly, fuck off.
Secondly, if you haven't fucked off yet, I'm responding directly and, I have to say, rather obviously to anyone with a brain cell, to this: "The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII."
The clue is in my exactly duplicating of the language: "Nobody deserves to be deported for things that..."
Thirdly, fuck off.
But when two tribes go to war repeatedly and one refuses another's right to exist then eventually enough is enough. That point was reached in WWII. The Red Army deserves a lot of criticism for most of what it did, including the ethnic cleansing in Crimea for instance deporting the Tatars, but for deporting the Germans who had elected the Nazis and repeatedly sort to exterminate people?
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's very right to exist, and the Palestinians in Gaza are supporting Hamas. Eventually removing from Israel's land, which includes Gaza, those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist may be a last resort.
Hopefully it can be avoided and another way to defeat Hamas and enforce a peace can be found. But history hasn't been kind with that yet.
Ok, let me put it this way. One of the strongest pillars of feudalism was the dangerous-world-self-defence pillar. It was the way that feudal lords sought the buy-in from the peasantry. That's the way service, including military service, to feudal lord was justified. That, plus religious justifications.
Feeding the view that Israel is a threat to civilians in the minds of ordinary innocent Palestinians would be a mistake, because it drives them closer to the likes of Hamas, who are the feudal lords in this analogy. Now, you've talked on this thread about Israeli restraint and you have a good point there. I won't dwell today on the flip side of that, the low-level violence that Israel has meted out. That's for another day. Suffice to say that Israel has conducted itself well in some ways and poorly in others. If Israel were to turn full ethnic-cleansy as a result of this, that will strengthen the ties between Hamas and the people. It will vindicate, in the eyes of some, Hamas's argument, which is not something you or I want to see.
If you want to free people from the bonds of fealty to Hamas, you don't do it by deliberately targeting civilians. You only deliberately target civilians if you are trying to wipe out a country or a way of life. That is what Hamas are doing. Israel mustn't become more like Hamas, Hamas should become more like Israel.
Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians. They have shown a generosity neither Egypt not Transjordan showed.
What thanks has it ever got them?
If they expel the "Palestinians" from Israel so that they can no longer attack from Gaza then what happens next?
Palestine doesn't exist. It has not for seventy years. If it can't co exist with Israel then saying goodbye and moving them on elsewhere may be the only solution that works.
"Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians..." 😂
Israel would have accepted the UN partition plan. Plenty of problems with it but it would have been a place to start a positive dialogue and relations.
By rights Israel should have been wiped off the map on the day off the declaration but somehow it wasn't. And yes during the fighting when they realised they were winning and amidst the Arab nations wanting to annihilate them, they did force Arab villages to flee. Absolutely.
But they would have accepted, indeed did accept the UN plan.
There is a video of an Israeli girl, kidnapped by Hamas, being thrown around by Hamas militants, in and out of a car
Don't worry, I will not link
It has been pointed out on TwitterX that the bloodstains on her clothes show that she has, almost certainly, been brutally raped, many times. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it
If I was an Israeli, seeing that, I would want Netanyahu to go in and kill every single person in Gaza, the steel would enter my soul
Killing everyone is far too far.
The humane thing to do is deport them.
To where?
Egypt, Jordan or Iran would be my suggestions.
Whatever their feelings about co-religionists Iranians are not usually very positive about living with Arabs.
Is today going to be the last day of the Ten Hag era? Starting to look that way.
How many Managers is that now fired since Ferguson?
Maybe its not Ten Hag that is to blame?
Maybe not but he has spent a fortune on players that are no better than the ones we had, he's not given the team any kind of structure and he is wasting what talent is available at his disposal by fighting with too many of the players.
Just been swimming in the sea at Southwold. Without a wetsuit. In eatly October. It was very pleasant.
It is unseasonably warm.
I spotted some people swimming at Weston-super-Mare last weekend.
It is like mid August here in sunny north London. 25C. Very nice
I've just walked home from the gym in shorts and a T-shirt.
You'd need a woolly jumper and full waterproofs here in SE Scotland - and a thermal wetsuit and flippers in Glasgow.
Meanwhile, currently 37C in Seville (yet another date record), 34C up in Bilbao, 31C in Carcassonne, and several more days of similar or higher temperatures to come.
There is a video of an Israeli girl, kidnapped by Hamas, being thrown around by Hamas militants, in and out of a car
Don't worry, I will not link
It has been pointed out on TwitterX that the bloodstains on her clothes show that she has, almost certainly, been brutally raped, many times. Once you see it, you cannot unsee it
If I was an Israeli, seeing that, I would want Netanyahu to go in and kill every single person in Gaza, the steel would enter my soul
Killing everyone is far too far.
The humane thing to do is deport them.
To where?
Egypt, Jordan or Iran would be my suggestions.
Whatever their feelings about co-religionists Iranians are not usually very positive about living with Arabs.
Then maybe they should stop funding Hamas.
That's the thing, Iran doesn't care about the so-called Palestinians, they're their version of "useful idiots".
Ethnic cleansing - let's be clear - normally means the mass murder of civilians; that includes women, children and babies being massacred through being shot, burned, poisoned, suffocated, or buried alive.
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
“My wife Nadia & I spent this morning on the phone to her family in Gaza. Many others in Scotland will be deeply worried about their families in Israel & Palestine. My thoughts and prayers are very much with those worried about loved ones caught up in this awful situation.”
Is today going to be the last day of the Ten Hag era? Starting to look that way.
How many Managers is that now fired since Ferguson?
Maybe its not Ten Hag that is to blame?
Maybe not but he has spent a fortune on players that are no better than the ones we had, he's not given the team any kind of structure and he is wasting what talent is available at his disposal by fighting with too many of the players.
Isn't that true of pretty much all of his predecessors too?
There's something deeply wrong at Old Trafford and its not just Ten Hag
I believe haven't Man Utd spent much, much more than Man City over the past decade, net?
Ethnic cleansing - let's be clear - normally means the mass murder of civilians; that includes women, children and babies being massacred through being shot, burned, poisoned, suffocated, or buried alive.
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
No it doesn't. It definitely means forced population movements, and always has done. What you are describing is a genocide, which of course includes ethnic cleansing but is more serious still.
“My wife Nadia & I spent this morning on the phone to her family in Gaza. Many others in Scotland will be deeply worried about their families in Israel & Palestine. My thoughts and prayers are very much with those worried about loved ones caught up in this awful situation.”
Do the SNP have a VONCing mechanism? It strikes me as a great deal more difficult to depose SNP leaders than Tory leaders, though I have no solid knowledge on it.
“My wife Nadia & I spent this morning on the phone to her family in Gaza. Many others in Scotland will be deeply worried about their families in Israel & Palestine. My thoughts and prayers are very much with those worried about loved ones caught up in this awful situation.”
Ethnic cleansing - let's be clear - normally means the mass murder of civilians; that includes women, children and babies being massacred through being shot, burned, poisoned, suffocated, or buried alive.
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
No it doesn't. It definitely means forced population movements, and always has done. What you are describing is a genocide, which of course includes ethnic cleansing but is more serious still.
We're responsible for messing up the region in 1948.
No we're not!
AIUI much, if not all, of the blame can be traced back to the Balfour Declaration of 1917. When no-one, apart from T E Lawrence, thought of consulting the Arabs.
“My wife Nadia & I spent this morning on the phone to her family in Gaza. Many others in Scotland will be deeply worried about their families in Israel & Palestine. My thoughts and prayers are very much with those worried about loved ones caught up in this awful situation.”
His actual job as politician and First Minister is to rise above that and speak for his nation, for Scotland
We’re watching Jewish women get kidnapped, stripped, raped, tortured and killed on live TV, by terrorists shouting Allahu Akhbar over their naked bodies, and he can’t bring himself to condemn it
"Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert @issacharoff makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."
Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure
However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes
If it were so easy I’m surprised they haven’t eliminated Hamas before now. What they’ll do is increase air and drone strikes with (even) less concern for collateral civilian damage.
A not entirely rhetorical question, has a terrorist/freedom fighting (delete to taste) group ever been entirely eliminated solely by force of arms?
That statement by the Scottish First Minister is incredible
I think you're being a tad unfair - he's quoting another tweet from the SNP Foreign affairs spokesman, who does condemn Hamas, before getting a bit "both sides"-y:
Ethnic cleansing - let's be clear - normally means the mass murder of civilians; that includes women, children and babies being massacred through being shot, burned, poisoned, suffocated, or buried alive.
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
No it doesn't. It definitely means forced population movements, and always has done. What you are describing is a genocide, which of course includes ethnic cleansing but is more serious still.
Ethnic Cleansing has a terrible brand though. They'll have to call it Extreme Relocation or something.
Extreme Relocation, Relocation, Relocation, presented by Phil ‘Bloodsports’ Spencer and Tory soft furnishings maven Kirstie Allsopp.
‘This week we have an oppressed minority that’s too brown for anyone to give a shit about and we’ll be finding them a crappy little corner of the world that no one else wants to live in..’
We're responsible for messing up the region in 1948.
No we're not!
AIUI much, if not all, of the blame can be traced back to the Balfour Declaration of 1917. When no-one, apart from T E Lawrence, thought of consulting the Arabs.
"Israel will likely aim to destroy Hamas completely following today's massacres & mass kidnappings of Israelis. Palestinian affairs expert @issacharoff makes the point: Assault on Israel succeeded far beyond what Hamas hoped, and this will now backfire."
Probably some embarrassed bluster in there. The Israeli intel and military have been surprised and humiliated, this is a pretty calamitous failure
However the diagnosis might be right - Israel will now seek to eliminate Hamas once and forever, whatever it takes
If it were so easy I’m surprised they haven’t eliminated Hamas before now. What they’ll do is increase air and drone strikes with (even) less concern for collateral civilian damage.
A not entirely rhetorical question, has a terrorist/freedom fighting (delete to taste) group ever been entirely eliminated solely by force of arms?
Isn't that what happened to ISIS?
My understanding is that it’s still about, although very much reduced. The remnants of the Malayan Communists eventually laid down their arms, The Mau Mau did very much the same.
That statement by the Scottish First Minister is incredible
No it's not. Why not visit Gaza instead of the Maldives and then you might have something worth listening to.
I have actually been to the West Bank. I’ve seen how Israel treats Palestinians. I believe Israel is now perilously close to being an apartheid state, brutalised by its own cruelties
Nonetheless I can see cold blooded terrorism - rape and murder - when it happens in front of me. And today as a politician that is what you must condemn, no?
Even Sadiq Khan managed it (Corbyn didn’t)
“The news coming out of Israel is deeply distressing.
I condemn the terrorist acts of Hamas and my thoughts are with those affected and those who have lost loved ones.”
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
This exchange is a perfect example of why, very sadly, when this conflict is the subject of pb I find the comments simply unreadable. You two aren’t talking to each other. At all. You might as well boil your own heads in a vat of oil for all the good it will do.
Firstly, fuck off.
Secondly, if you haven't fucked off yet, I'm responding directly and, I have to say, rather obviously to anyone with a brain cell, to this: "The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII."
The clue is in my exactly duplicating of the language: "Nobody deserves to be deported for things that..."
Thirdly, fuck off.
But when two tribes go to war repeatedly and one refuses another's right to exist then eventually enough is enough. That point was reached in WWII. The Red Army deserves a lot of criticism for most of what it did, including the ethnic cleansing in Crimea for instance deporting the Tatars, but for deporting the Germans who had elected the Nazis and repeatedly sort to exterminate people?
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's very right to exist, and the Palestinians in Gaza are supporting Hamas. Eventually removing from Israel's land, which includes Gaza, those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist may be a last resort.
Hopefully it can be avoided and another way to defeat Hamas and enforce a peace can be found. But history hasn't been kind with that yet.
Ok, let me put it this way. One of the strongest pillars of feudalism was the dangerous-world-self-defence pillar. It was the way that feudal lords sought the buy-in from the peasantry. That's the way service, including military service, to feudal lord was justified. That, plus religious justifications.
Feeding the view that Israel is a threat to civilians in the minds of ordinary innocent Palestinians would be a mistake, because it drives them closer to the likes of Hamas, who are the feudal lords in this analogy. Now, you've talked on this thread about Israeli restraint and you have a good point there. I won't dwell today on the flip side of that, the low-level violence that Israel has meted out. That's for another day. Suffice to say that Israel has conducted itself well in some ways and poorly in others. If Israel were to turn full ethnic-cleansy as a result of this, that will strengthen the ties between Hamas and the people. It will vindicate, in the eyes of some, Hamas's argument, which is not something you or I want to see.
If you want to free people from the bonds of fealty to Hamas, you don't do it by deliberately targeting civilians. You only deliberately target civilians if you are trying to wipe out a country or a way of life. That is what Hamas are doing. Israel mustn't become more like Hamas, Hamas should become more like Israel.
Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians. They have shown a generosity neither Egypt not Transjordan showed.
What thanks has it ever got them?
If they expel the "Palestinians" from Israel so that they can no longer attack from Gaza then what happens next?
Palestine doesn't exist. It has not for seventy years. If it can't co exist with Israel then saying goodbye and moving them on elsewhere may be the only solution that works.
"Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians..." 😂
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
This exchange is a perfect example of why, very sadly, when this conflict is the subject of pb I find the comments simply unreadable. You two aren’t talking to each other. At all. You might as well boil your own heads in a vat of oil for all the good it will do.
Firstly, fuck off.
Secondly, if you haven't fucked off yet, I'm responding directly and, I have to say, rather obviously to anyone with a brain cell, to this: "The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII."
The clue is in my exactly duplicating of the language: "Nobody deserves to be deported for things that..."
Thirdly, fuck off.
But when two tribes go to war repeatedly and one refuses another's right to exist then eventually enough is enough. That point was reached in WWII. The Red Army deserves a lot of criticism for most of what it did, including the ethnic cleansing in Crimea for instance deporting the Tatars, but for deporting the Germans who had elected the Nazis and repeatedly sort to exterminate people?
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's very right to exist, and the Palestinians in Gaza are supporting Hamas. Eventually removing from Israel's land, which includes Gaza, those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist may be a last resort.
Hopefully it can be avoided and another way to defeat Hamas and enforce a peace can be found. But history hasn't been kind with that yet.
Ok, let me put it this way. One of the strongest pillars of feudalism was the dangerous-world-self-defence pillar. It was the way that feudal lords sought the buy-in from the peasantry. That's the way service, including military service, to feudal lord was justified. That, plus religious justifications.
Feeding the view that Israel is a threat to civilians in the minds of ordinary innocent Palestinians would be a mistake, because it drives them closer to the likes of Hamas, who are the feudal lords in this analogy. Now, you've talked on this thread about Israeli restraint and you have a good point there. I won't dwell today on the flip side of that, the low-level violence that Israel has meted out. That's for another day. Suffice to say that Israel has conducted itself well in some ways and poorly in others. If Israel were to turn full ethnic-cleansy as a result of this, that will strengthen the ties between Hamas and the people. It will vindicate, in the eyes of some, Hamas's argument, which is not something you or I want to see.
If you want to free people from the bonds of fealty to Hamas, you don't do it by deliberately targeting civilians. You only deliberately target civilians if you are trying to wipe out a country or a way of life. That is what Hamas are doing. Israel mustn't become more like Hamas, Hamas should become more like Israel.
Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians. They have shown a generosity neither Egypt not Transjordan showed.
What thanks has it ever got them?
If they expel the "Palestinians" from Israel so that they can no longer attack from Gaza then what happens next?
Palestine doesn't exist. It has not for seventy years. If it can't co exist with Israel then saying goodbye and moving them on elsewhere may be the only solution that works.
"Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians..." 😂
Ethnic cleansing - let's be clear - normally means the mass murder of civilians; that includes women, children and babies being massacred through being shot, burned, poisoned, suffocated, or buried alive.
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
No it doesn't. It definitely means forced population movements, and always has done. What you are describing is a genocide, which of course includes ethnic cleansing but is more serious still.
Ethnic Cleansing has a terrible brand though. They'll have to call it Extreme Relocation or something.
Population transfer is the polite term.
I’m on holiday in Crete. My guidebook is a delight. After a prolonged rant about Turkish atrocities, it notes that the Turkish (actually mostly Greek Muslim) population “left” between 1898-1923.
Israel has been invaded, has seen its citizens kidnapped, and has no choice but to invade the Gaza strip.
This is unbelievably shit, principally for innocent Israelis.
It's also hard to work out what Hamas thinks they could possible gain from this. They are not going to - and can never have thought it possible - defeat Israel militarily.
The only possible long-term consequence of this is that life in the Gaza Strip, which was already unbelievably shit, becomes shitter yet.
You know what, I get it. If I was in the Gaza Strip, I'd probably hate the Israelis with a passion. I'd live in fear that the power or the water would be cut off again. I'd be livid that my city was choked off from the world by Israel.
But while that hatred may be understandable, it doesn't justify an attack that will only make things worse for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza.
It's time to face reality: the Gaza Strip is not sustainable. It represents a security threat to Israel, such that they need to seal it from the world. But Israel's actions create a seething mass of resentment that is channeled by Hamas into eruptions of violence.
And, by the way, the more you squeeze Gaza, the more people feel they have nothing to lose. If life is already shit, how much worse can the Israelis make it?
I don't know what the solution is. Involuntary resettlement of people away from the coast is one option. But there are two million people in Gaza. That's a lot of people, and is the Israeli military strong enough to do that? And where would they go?
Normally, I'm filled with ideas and solutions. But here, not so much. Israel has a right to exist. Israel has a right to defend itself. And it has been attacked and its citizens kidnapped. That's fucking shit. But the things that bring Israel long-term security come with a massive price that would be paid not by Hamas (which would probably end up strengthened), but by ordinary Palestinians.
It would have been easy for Yousaf to get it right without betraying himself
Something like this
“I have close family in Gaza so I know all too well the price paid by innocent people in this terrible conflict. This horror will only end when the violence ends, and that’s why I utterly condemn this brutal terrorism against Israelis today”
He could have said something like that. Showing us his sympathies but getting the necessary condemnation in. But he didn’t
Ethnic cleansing - let's be clear - normally means the mass murder of civilians; that includes women, children and babies being massacred through being shot, burned, poisoned, suffocated, or buried alive.
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
No it doesn't. It definitely means forced population movements, and always has done. What you are describing is a genocide, which of course includes ethnic cleansing but is more serious still.
I think it would be fair to say that mass executions, rape, and destruction of property, even if only inflicted on a minority, are typically used to induce the rest to leave.
Also, neglecting to feed and shelter the departing people is common, too.
I always hoped Humza Yousaf would be a catastrophic leader. I’m grateful to him for fulfilling my aspirations so quickly
Your judgment on how pols will turn out is of course legendary. The day some random on an obscure website didn’t like Humza’s statement on events in Gaza will be seen as a crucial point in his downfall.
I always hoped Humza Yousaf would be a catastrophic leader. I’m grateful to him for fulfilling my aspirations so quickly
Your judgment on how pols will turn out is of course legendary. The day some random on an obscure website didn’t like Humza’s statement on events in Gaza will be seen as a crucial point in his downfall.
How do you think the Reign of Humza is going, you know, so far? All good?
Ethnic cleansing - let's be clear - normally means the mass murder of civilians; that includes women, children and babies being massacred through being shot, burned, poisoned, suffocated, or buried alive.
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
No it doesn't. It definitely means forced population movements, and always has done. What you are describing is a genocide, which of course includes ethnic cleansing but is more serious still.
I think it would be fair to say that mass executions, rape, and destruction of property, even if only inflicted on a minority, are typically used to induce the rest to leave.
Also, neglecting to feed and shelter the departing people is common, too.
I always hoped Humza Yousaf would be a catastrophic leader. I’m grateful to him for fulfilling my aspirations so quickly
Your judgment on how pols will turn out is of course legendary. The day some random on an obscure website didn’t like Humza’s statement on events in Gaza will be seen as a crucial point in his downfall.
It does seem a bit strange to get the arsehole because some Scottish politician isn't emoting hard enough on his socials over events Israel.
There has been an obvious solution to the Palestinian problem for decades. And a fairly easy one, as the September 9th issue of the Economist reminded me. Turns out that a Muslim nation, Uzbekistan, once had a substantial Jewish population, about 200,000. They fled Muslim and Communist persection, and now about half of them are in the US, half of them in the UK.
The same is true of many Arab nations; they once had substantial Jewish populations, but do no longer. Now it is true that none of these nations particularly want the Palestinians, but they should take them in, anyway.
This solution follows the "aggressor pays" rule, which is a good one, in general.
Sure, sounds like a good plan. Who knew that the solution was simply to wipe Palestine off the map? Seems so obvious now you mention it.
What Palestine on the map?
Egypt and Transjordan already wiped Palestine off the map in 1947.
They tried twice to wipe Israel off the map and failed both times and the disputed territory isn't Palestinian land it's ex Egyptian and Jordanian land and they've renounced their claims to it.
If they take responsibility for their actions and take the people who can't peacefully live in Israel's land, that's taking responsibility for their own history and may allow peace.
What do you mean, "what Palestine"? The country of Palestine. The one next to Israel, that one.
What country of Palestine? There is none. Egypt and Transjordan, as well as Arafat saw to that.
There is a state that has not acquired country status as part of the land for peace accords agreed with Arafat but since Arafat then rejected peace and so have Hamas they've no right to country status and don't have it.
If they lose the land they acquired from false commitments to peace and from losing a war then fair enough.
Look, I don't know why you keep talking about Arafat. Well over half the population of Palestine was born since Arafat died. Whatever Arafat did or didn't do is not their fault. And these people, these Palestinians, these humans. Where do they live? Palestine is a place. It's recognised by the vast majority of the world. It exists.
It's not their sovereign territory, it is disputed territory like Crimea which is occupied by Russia.
On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all legal and administrative ties with the West Bank, except for the Jordanian sponsorship of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem, and recognised the PLO's claim to the State of Palestine. In his speech to the nation held on that day he announced his decision and explained that this decision was made with the aim of helping the Palestinian people establishing their own independent state.[59][60]
Since King Hussein's country had lost control of that land in a war it began against a nation that was defending it's very right to exist that doesn't mean the land is Palestinian, it means it's Israels.
Now if Israel wishes to gift that land to the Palestinians that is quite generous and they've tried that for decades. If that doesn't work, then deporting those who refuse to recognise their right to exist might be a last resort.
Germany lost land to France, to Poland and others at the end of WWII. Do you think that land should be returned to Germany now?
The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII. The Arabs deserved the same after 47 and 67 but Israel were the better humans.
Nobody deserves to be deported for things that their government or the government of a neighbouring country has done. The ethnic Germans living in Poland and just getting on with their own lives weren't to blame for anything. Ordinary Arabs in Israel or Palestine aren't to blame. Don't punish the innocent.
This exchange is a perfect example of why, very sadly, when this conflict is the subject of pb I find the comments simply unreadable. You two aren’t talking to each other. At all. You might as well boil your own heads in a vat of oil for all the good it will do.
Firstly, fuck off.
Secondly, if you haven't fucked off yet, I'm responding directly and, I have to say, rather obviously to anyone with a brain cell, to this: "The only difference is the Poles deported the Germans en mass. Which they kind of deserved after WWII."
The clue is in my exactly duplicating of the language: "Nobody deserves to be deported for things that..."
Thirdly, fuck off.
But when two tribes go to war repeatedly and one refuses another's right to exist then eventually enough is enough. That point was reached in WWII. The Red Army deserves a lot of criticism for most of what it did, including the ethnic cleansing in Crimea for instance deporting the Tatars, but for deporting the Germans who had elected the Nazis and repeatedly sort to exterminate people?
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel's very right to exist, and the Palestinians in Gaza are supporting Hamas. Eventually removing from Israel's land, which includes Gaza, those who refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist may be a last resort.
Hopefully it can be avoided and another way to defeat Hamas and enforce a peace can be found. But history hasn't been kind with that yet.
Ok, let me put it this way. One of the strongest pillars of feudalism was the dangerous-world-self-defence pillar. It was the way that feudal lords sought the buy-in from the peasantry. That's the way service, including military service, to feudal lord was justified. That, plus religious justifications.
Feeding the view that Israel is a threat to civilians in the minds of ordinary innocent Palestinians would be a mistake, because it drives them closer to the likes of Hamas, who are the feudal lords in this analogy. Now, you've talked on this thread about Israeli restraint and you have a good point there. I won't dwell today on the flip side of that, the low-level violence that Israel has meted out. That's for another day. Suffice to say that Israel has conducted itself well in some ways and poorly in others. If Israel were to turn full ethnic-cleansy as a result of this, that will strengthen the ties between Hamas and the people. It will vindicate, in the eyes of some, Hamas's argument, which is not something you or I want to see.
If you want to free people from the bonds of fealty to Hamas, you don't do it by deliberately targeting civilians. You only deliberately target civilians if you are trying to wipe out a country or a way of life. That is what Hamas are doing. Israel mustn't become more like Hamas, Hamas should become more like Israel.
Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians. They have shown a generosity neither Egypt not Transjordan showed.
What thanks has it ever got them?
If they expel the "Palestinians" from Israel so that they can no longer attack from Gaza then what happens next?
Palestine doesn't exist. It has not for seventy years. If it can't co exist with Israel then saying goodbye and moving them on elsewhere may be the only solution that works.
"Israel has bent over backwards to be kind to Palestinians..." 😂
I'd hate to see what oppressing them looks like.
If Hamas get their way, you might eventually find out.
Then you'll realise just what kid gloves Israel have been using for decades.
I always hoped Humza Yousaf would be a catastrophic leader. I’m grateful to him for fulfilling my aspirations so quickly
Your judgment on how pols will turn out is of course legendary. The day some random on an obscure website didn’t like Humza’s statement on events in Gaza will be seen as a crucial point in his downfall.
It does seem a bit strange to get the arsehole because some Scottish politician isn't emoting hard enough on his socials over events Israel.
You do realise this is www.politicalbetting.com?
"Getting the arsehole because some Scottish politician isn't emoting hard enough on his socials" is a brilliantly precise example of what we do here, pointlessly and endlessly, for hour after hour - to people we have never even met
Or maybe you know of some other politicalbetting.com where there is some wider purpose to the shit people say?
Ethnic cleansing - let's be clear - normally means the mass murder of civilians; that includes women, children and babies being massacred through being shot, burned, poisoned, suffocated, or buried alive.
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
No it doesn't. It definitely means forced population movements, and always has done. What you are describing is a genocide, which of course includes ethnic cleansing but is more serious still.
I think it would be fair to say that mass executions, rape, and destruction of property, even if only inflicted on a minority, are typically used to induce the rest to leave.
Also, neglecting to feed and shelter the departing people is common, too.
Yes, it's not exactly a coach holiday.
I don’t blame the Russians, Poles, and Czechs, for what they did between 1945-50, given the sufferings they endured from 1939-45. But, the expulsion of ethnic Germans was an ugly business.
Ethnic cleansing - let's be clear - normally means the mass murder of civilians; that includes women, children and babies being massacred through being shot, burned, poisoned, suffocated, or buried alive.
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
No it doesn't. It definitely means forced population movements, and always has done. What you are describing is a genocide, which of course includes ethnic cleansing but is more serious still.
I think it would be fair to say that mass executions, rape, and destruction of property, even if only inflicted on a minority, are typically used to induce the rest to leave.
Also, neglecting to feed and shelter the departing people is common, too.
Yes, it's not exactly a coach holiday.
I don’t blame the Russians, Poles, and Czechs, for what they did between 1945-50, given the sufferings they endured from 1939-45. But, the expulsion of ethnic Germans was an ugly business.
Indeed. It was ugly, but then it was over.
The past seventy years in the Middle East have been fairly ugly too and there's no end in sight.
I wonder overall which was more humane and led to fewer fatalities? Not done the numbers myself.
Comments
One of the strongest pillars of feudalism was the dangerous-world-self-defence pillar. It was the way that feudal lords sought the buy-in from the peasantry. That's the way service, including military service, to feudal lord was justified. That, plus religious justifications.
Feeding the view that Israel is a threat to civilians in the minds of ordinary innocent Palestinians would be a mistake, because it drives them closer to the likes of Hamas, who are the feudal lords in this analogy.
Now, you've talked on this thread about Israeli restraint and you have a good point there. I won't dwell today on the flip side of that, the low-level violence that Israel has meted out. That's for another day. Suffice to say that Israel has conducted itself well in some ways and poorly in others. If Israel were to turn full ethnic-cleansy as a result of this, that will strengthen the ties between Hamas and the people. It will vindicate, in the eyes of some, Hamas's argument, which is not something you or I want to see.
If you want to free people from the bonds of fealty to Hamas, you don't do it by deliberately targeting civilians. You only deliberately target civilians if you are trying to wipe out a country or a way of life. That is what Hamas are doing. Israel mustn't become more like Hamas, Hamas should become more like Israel.
Anybody who thinks there is a solution is delusional. Al-Quds has changed hands 50-odd times over the centuries and will again in the future. The idea that there is a workable answer to all this is laughable.
Even the most endless of conflicts come to an end. I remember the despair which surrounded Northern Ireland in the early 80s. It was a centuries-old war that would go on forever, and there was nothing to be done about it. And yet, here we are, it is over
Thankfully that was achieved by compromise and vision. But intractable wars can also end when one side gains a commanding advantage and annihilates the other
What thanks has it ever got them?
If they expel the "Palestinians" from Israel so that they can no longer attack from Gaza then what happens next?
Palestine doesn't exist. It has not for seventy years. If it can't co exist with Israel then saying goodbye and moving them on elsewhere may be the only solution that works.
https://www.reddit.com/r/glasgow/comments/17226ef/aitkenhead_road_at_curtis_avenue/
What a f---up.
8C in Aberdeen and God knows how much rain in the west.
Lumme
Get the terrorists out of Israel.
The reports that Hamas attacked "by land, sea, and air" seem quite questionable given the blockade and the tight patrolling of the coastline in which even fishing vessels can be shot at if they go further than a certain distance out.
Al Jazeera is quoting Israeli media and military sources a lot.
Iranian news agency IRNA's website is down.
The Hamas website is down.
Wafa.ps and PNN.ps are up but bitty. Their angle is mostly "sticky" in Irish republican terminology.
Edit: re. talk of ethnic cleansing: a massive bout of it just went on in Nagorno-Karabakh, carried out by the Azerbaijani dictatorship with its "one country, two states" ideology - and for those who don't know, by the second state Aliyev means Turkey, not NK. Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, whoever carries it out and whoever the victims are, but for some reason this particular instance hasn't been covered much outside of Armenia.
Certainly Azerbaijan was assisted by a major player. There's no doubt about that. In Russia there hasn't even been any strong TALK in response. The Russian government's attitude towards Armenia is Windsor Davies-ist. It's that if they want any support they can whistle for it because they're in the US camp now. Whoever assisted Azerbaijan it wasn't either Russia or Iran.
"Today should be a day of celebration for supporters of democracy and human rights worldwide, as Gazans break out of their open-air prison and Hamas fighters cross into their colonisers' territory. The struggle for freedom is rarely bloodless and we shouldn't apologise for it."
https://x.com/rivkahbrown/status/1710636448825688348?s=20
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/cricket/icc-cricket-world-cup/south-africa-v-sri-lanka-betting-32555358
https://x.com/pho_to_n/status/1710667774144442731?s=20
No-one cares about Gaza.
"The Israeli Security Council has reportedly approved a ground operation in the Gaza Strip.
Prime Minister Netanyahu in a call with US President Biden said that the country faces a long campaign, but that they will emerge victorious."
https://x.com/NOELreports/status/1710664826794528809?s=20
Azerbaijan has also been armed by Israel.
With the US doing a job on Armenia itself.
All of this adds up to a change in the balance of power in the region away from Iran, which probably scares the bejeesus out of the Iranian government. This is the context of Gaza. Everyone knows Israel has a contingency plan for nuking Iran.
To judge from his discussion with Elon Musk, Benyamin Netanyahu believes Mutually Assured Destruction "kept the peace" betwen the US and the USSR (what a load of crap), but for some reason he doesn't want it between Israel and Iran. Barty might say there are limits to a victor's generosity towards worse humans.
As long as neither side makes any egregious errors, the conflict is done, apart from a few nutters
source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/07/illinois-congressional-map-gerrymandering/
In general, these efforts -- by both parties -- have eliminated competitive districts, and the moderates who often represented them. This particular effort forced moderate Republican Rodney Davis to run against Trumpista Mary Miller --no relation, I hasten to add. He lost.
(The Democrats in Illinois have bankrupted the state, and tolerated levels of crime in Chicago that should appall any decent person. But they are still pretty good at unscrupulous political tactics.)
Leftists abroad, from what I can tell, were not much interested in American gerrymandering -- when it was mostly done by Democrats. Now that the Republicans have caught up, they view it with horror -- or claim to, anyway.
By rights Israel should have been wiped off the map on the day off the declaration but somehow it wasn't. And yes during the fighting when they realised they were winning and amidst the Arab nations wanting to annihilate them, they did force Arab villages to flee. Absolutely.
But they would have accepted, indeed did accept the UN plan.
The rest, as they say, is history.
Maybe its not Ten Hag that is to blame?
What happened in 1948 wasn't our choice.
It wasn't the UN's choice either (where correct me if I'm wrong we were from memory outvoted but didn't use our veto).
What happened in 1948 and since was the Arab state's fault. Theirs and theirs alone.
That's the thing, Iran doesn't care about the so-called Palestinians, they're their version of "useful idiots".
It might make long-term political solutions 'clean' - after all that's why people do it - but let's not pretend it's a just a little bit of bussing and tidying up.
“My wife Nadia & I spent this morning on the phone to her family in Gaza. Many others in Scotland will be deeply worried about their families in Israel & Palestine. My thoughts and prayers are very much with those worried about loved ones caught up in this awful situation.”
https://x.com/humzayousaf/status/1710653011125502380?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
That’s it. No condemnation. Nothing
He really is Corbyn levels of Disastrous
There's something deeply wrong at Old Trafford and its not just Ten Hag
I believe haven't Man Utd spent much, much more than Man City over the past decade, net?
Here is the EU's page on the subject:
https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/networks/european-migration-network-emn/emn-asylum-and-migration-glossary/glossary/ethnic-cleansing_en#:~:text=Definition(s),is contrary to international law.
We’re watching Jewish women get kidnapped, stripped, raped, tortured and killed on live TV, by terrorists shouting Allahu Akhbar over their naked bodies, and he can’t bring himself to condemn it
This is pure Corbyn
.......and probably the last to come out of that misbegotten country these last 55 years.
What do you think should happen to Russian sympathisers after Crimea is liberated?
‘This week we have an oppressed minority that’s too brown for anyone to give a shit about and we’ll be finding them a crappy little corner of the world that no one else wants to live in..’
Nonetheless I can see cold blooded terrorism - rape and murder - when it happens in front of me. And today as a politician that is what you must condemn, no?
Even Sadiq Khan managed it (Corbyn didn’t)
“The news coming out of Israel is deeply distressing.
I condemn the terrorist acts of Hamas and my thoughts are with those affected and those who
have lost loved ones.”
https://x.com/mayoroflondon/status/1710614114060431362?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
I’m on holiday in Crete. My guidebook is a delight. After a prolonged rant about Turkish atrocities, it notes that the Turkish (actually mostly Greek Muslim) population “left” between 1898-1923.
This is unbelievably shit, principally for innocent Israelis.
It's also hard to work out what Hamas thinks they could possible gain from this. They are not going to - and can never have thought it possible - defeat Israel militarily.
The only possible long-term consequence of this is that life in the Gaza Strip, which was already unbelievably shit, becomes shitter yet.
You know what, I get it. If I was in the Gaza Strip, I'd probably hate the Israelis with a passion. I'd live in fear that the power or the water would be cut off again. I'd be livid that my city was choked off from the world by Israel.
But while that hatred may be understandable, it doesn't justify an attack that will only make things worse for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza.
It's time to face reality: the Gaza Strip is not sustainable. It represents a security threat to Israel, such that they need to seal it from the world. But Israel's actions create a seething mass of resentment that is channeled by Hamas into eruptions of violence.
And, by the way, the more you squeeze Gaza, the more people feel they have nothing to lose. If life is already shit, how much worse can the Israelis make it?
I don't know what the solution is. Involuntary resettlement of people away from the coast is one option. But there are two million people in Gaza. That's a lot of people, and is the Israeli military strong enough to do that? And where would they go?
Normally, I'm filled with ideas and solutions. But here, not so much. Israel has a right to exist. Israel has a right to defend itself. And it has been attacked and its citizens kidnapped. That's fucking shit. But the things that bring Israel long-term security come with a massive price that would be paid not by Hamas (which would probably end up strengthened), but by ordinary Palestinians.
Something like this
“I have close family in Gaza so I know all too well the price paid by innocent people in this terrible conflict. This horror will only end when the violence ends, and that’s why I utterly condemn this brutal terrorism against Israelis today”
He could have said something like that. Showing us his sympathies but getting the necessary condemnation in. But he didn’t
He really is Yousless
Also, neglecting to feed and shelter the departing people is common, too.
The day some random on an obscure website didn’t like Humza’s statement on events in Gaza will be seen as a crucial point in his downfall.
https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1710680925317603432?s=20
Just another day on PB
Then you'll realise just what kid gloves Israel have been using for decades.
"Getting the arsehole because some Scottish politician isn't emoting hard enough on his socials" is a brilliantly precise example of what we do here, pointlessly and endlessly, for hour after hour - to people we have never even met
Or maybe you know of some other politicalbetting.com where there is some wider purpose to the shit people say?
The past seventy years in the Middle East have been fairly ugly too and there's no end in sight.
I wonder overall which was more humane and led to fewer fatalities? Not done the numbers myself.
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84
Indeed, why do we even need to hear from the Scottish First Minister, or the Mayor of London for that matter, on these tragic events?