The LEAVE-REMAIN divide becoming less of an issue – politicalbetting.com

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

rottenborough said:

Anne Applebaum @anneapplebaum
It had to happen


NEXTA @nexta_tv

China has declared part of Russia as its territory on new official maps

#China's state-owned Standard Map Service has presented a set of geographic maps for 2023, on which for the first time part of #Russia's territory is indicated as part of China. It is about the Bolshoy Ussuriysky Island on the Amur River.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1696624183470408168

Leon said:

ON topic

I went to a very sweet wedding, yesterday. Some old friends who’ve been unmarried partners 35 years and have two fine, well-adjusted grown up kids. And now grandkids. They suddenly decided to solemnise the whole shebang, just because.

It was a perfect mix of ages: babies to babushkas. 80 people on the Twickenham riverside. The sun shone. Lots of bubbles flowed. Everyone seemed happy. Many old friends were gathered

I realise this is apropos of nothing but for me it was a reminder that in an apparently dark world a billion simple but beautiful things happen daily.

I will now switch off my “Radio 4 vicar” mode

kle4 said:

rottenborough said:

Anne Applebaum @anneapplebaum
It had to happen


NEXTA @nexta_tv

China has declared part of Russia as its territory on new official maps

#China's state-owned Standard Map Service has presented a set of geographic maps for 2023, on which for the first time part of #Russia's territory is indicated as part of China. It is about the Bolshoy Ussuriysky Island on the Amur River.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1696624183470408168

Some people think there's no such thing as Russian or Chinese Imperialism, if you can believe it.

Malmesbury said:

kle4 said:

rottenborough said:

Anne Applebaum @anneapplebaum
It had to happen


NEXTA @nexta_tv

China has declared part of Russia as its territory on new official maps

#China's state-owned Standard Map Service has presented a set of geographic maps for 2023, on which for the first time part of #Russia's territory is indicated as part of China. It is about the Bolshoy Ussuriysky Island on the Amur River.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1696624183470408168

Some people think there's no such thing as Russian or Chinese Imperialism, if you can believe it.

It’s not imperialism to conquer people, erase their culture, engage in wholesale ethnic cleansing.

It’s only imperialism if you did it a hundred years ago.

Carnyx said:

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

I suspect that most people (who, bizarrely, don’t read PB) have largely forgotten about it. We are out and it has not proved as transformational as some promised but neither have any of the downsides manifested themselves. The revisals of our GDP earlier this week removed the final remnants of the “economic disaster “ claim but they also showed that we are doing no better than average.
We want a government that can do better and it doesn’t appear to be this one.

Er .... the UK is not "out". Not by a long shot, if you are in impexp. HMG still hasn't sorted out customs. Partly, reportedly, for fear of the effect on inflation.

And the impact on the "united" bit of the UK remains to be seen, notably but not only in NI.

Gardenwalker said:

China is astonishingly good at alienating its neighbours.

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

I suspect that most people (who, bizarrely, don’t read PB) have largely forgotten about it. We are out and it has not proved as transformational as some promised but neither have any of the downsides manifested themselves. The revisals of our GDP earlier this week removed the final remnants of the “economic disaster “ claim but they also showed that we are doing no better than average.
We want a government that can do better and it doesn’t appear to be this one.

Gardenwalker said:

China is astonishingly good at alienating its neighbours.

Carnyx said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Carnyx said:

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

I suspect that most people (who, bizarrely, don’t read PB) have largely forgotten about it. We are out and it has not proved as transformational as some promised but neither have any of the downsides manifested themselves. The revisals of our GDP earlier this week removed the final remnants of the “economic disaster “ claim but they also showed that we are doing no better than average.
We want a government that can do better and it doesn’t appear to be this one.

Er .... the UK is not "out". Not by a long shot, if you are in impexp. HMG still hasn't sorted out customs. Partly, reportedly, for fear of the effect on inflation.

And the impact on the "united" bit of the UK remains to be seen, notably but not only in NI.

The UK is out, 100% out.

As a sovereign and independent country it is entirely up to us whether or how we choose to "sort out" customs.

We could choose to waive customs checks from here until eternity, and we'd remain out, that's the point of sovereignty we get to choose what our priorities are rather than having another institution determine what our priorities and checks are.

r
"We don't really need to worry about all those things we Brexiters were going on and on about for decades" isn't entirely a convincing argument.

Especially when sovereignty over a large chunk of the former UK has been signed away in part.

Mexicanpete said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

I suspect a bit of both. I am not typical of course as I was not willing to vote for Johnson in 2019 even if Brexit, which I still wholeheartedly support, was at risk.

But many of those I know who are still Brexiteers are of the opinion that Starmer will make no appreciable difference to it and that competance is what is needed now not ideology.

And for that Starmer should hang his head in shame.

We have left, we are not going back, but Starmer's silence and inertia in terms of single market membership, FOM and membership of EU bodies we belonged to prior to our joining the Common Market is disgraceful.

What is particularly wicked is, like Johnson before him, Starmer doesn't believe in Brexit, but supports it out of personal political expediency. At least Rishi is a true believer, which I don't agree with, but I appreciate his honesty.

Theuniondivvie said:

Carnyx said:

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

I suspect that most people (who, bizarrely, don’t read PB) have largely forgotten about it. We are out and it has not proved as transformational as some promised but neither have any of the downsides manifested themselves. The revisals of our GDP earlier this week removed the final remnants of the “economic disaster “ claim but they also showed that we are doing no better than average.
We want a government that can do better and it doesn’t appear to be this one.

Er .... the UK is not "out". Not by a long shot, if you are in impexp. HMG still hasn't sorted out customs. Partly, reportedly, for fear of the effect on inflation.

And the impact on the "united" bit of the UK remains to be seen, notably but not only in NI.

Folk once passionately attached to leaving the EU and the idea of being a Brexiteer now seem to think it something of little note from which we should all move on.

They could at least try and be subtle about their ‘journey’.

MaxPB said:

StillWaters said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

MaxPB said:

Stuartinromford said:

MaxPB said:

My wife and I were saying at breakfast that this RAAC scandal typifies the UK's approach to economic development and that it was the same in the 60s and 70s so nothing has changed. Everything is built or made to solve today's problems and fuck the future. Those buildings were made with substandard concrete because the governments of the day didn't want to spend the money on proper concrete and now it's going to cost us 10x as much as today to solve this and replace all of the RAAC in buildings.

We do this in all walks of life too, the UK has got no economic resilience because we never want to spend the 10% extra at the right moments or we cut costs to point where everything behind the curtain is a shit fest.

Today everything is being cut to the bone and our economic resilience is basically zero because the government has decided to prioritise old age spending to buy votes. Back then the same generation who is benefiting from today's largesse decided to cut investment knowing that long term consequences for future generations would be dire.

The baby boomer generation is quite possibly the single most selfish to ever have existed, I hope the next Labour government has got the cojones to tax the fuck out of them, tax the fuck out of inheritance and properly tax high fixed incomes and rent seeking at a significantly higher rate than income. I have very little faith.

Interesting question.

Is the problem with the boomer generation that they're uniquely selfish, or just that they're uniquely numerous which allows them to enact the selfishness that most people would do, given the chance?

Especially now that their parents, the ones who actually experienced wartime deprivation, have passed on and aren't there as a living reality check.

The practical effect is the same, natch, but the political problem and solution is slightly different.

As for government policy after the next election, it doesn't matter what the manifestoes say. Overall, we're going to be paying more for less.

Uniquely selfish in my experience. My uncles are basically all clueless but because they existed in an era when property was cheap they got to retire between 55 and 60 with defined benefit pensions that they closed off for future generations as "unaffordable" but ask them whether their pension is affordable and they both get genuinely offended and defensive that they signed in good faith blah, blah yet it's not affordable for anyone else to have them.

If the Tories want to win in the future they will need to become the party of revolution against the old selfish ****s just as so many other right wing parties are finding in Europe. The next big political divide is already forming, the selfish old vs the working age young.

I think that is simplistic.

For a variety of reasons, growth roughly halved in most Western countries, compared to the rates of 1950-2000.

No, I think it's part of the same discussion. The selfishness is that they know the growth rate had gone down but are unwilling to share the pain of that reduction so have been taking a greater and greater proportion of economic gains for themselves. Spending on investment for future generations, economic resilience and everything outside of old age related areas has been sacrificed as they funnel national growth and productivity gains to themselves. When growth was 4% per year them taking 2% of it wasn't an issue, now that it's 2% per year them taking 2% for themselves is a huge proplblem.

The sanctity of contract undermines our entire economic system. If the government rips them up unilaterally we are behaving no better than Putin did over Yukos.

A brave politician would make the argument - say for retired civil servants - that they should take a 10% cut and the money go into the pot for future civil servants.

But they need to do the legwork

I actually think this is one of the reasons the UK will opt for an IMF sponsored restructuring within the next 7-10 years. It will allow the government to restructure those liabilities with cover from the IMF and hand public sector DB pensioners a 30-40% haircut depending on their benefit amount.

Theuniondivvie said:

Carnyx said:

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

I suspect that most people (who, bizarrely, don’t read PB) have largely forgotten about it. We are out and it has not proved as transformational as some promised but neither have any of the downsides manifested themselves. The revisals of our GDP earlier this week removed the final remnants of the “economic disaster “ claim but they also showed that we are doing no better than average.
We want a government that can do better and it doesn’t appear to be this one.

Er .... the UK is not "out". Not by a long shot, if you are in impexp. HMG still hasn't sorted out customs. Partly, reportedly, for fear of the effect on inflation.

And the impact on the "united" bit of the UK remains to be seen, notably but not only in NI.

Folk once passionately attached to leaving the EU and the idea of being a Brexiteer now seem to think it something of little note from which we should all move on.

They could at least try and be subtle about their ‘journey’.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Carnyx said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Carnyx said:

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

I suspect that most people (who, bizarrely, don’t read PB) have largely forgotten about it. We are out and it has not proved as transformational as some promised but neither have any of the downsides manifested themselves. The revisals of our GDP earlier this week removed the final remnants of the “economic disaster “ claim but they also showed that we are doing no better than average.
We want a government that can do better and it doesn’t appear to be this one.

Er .... the UK is not "out". Not by a long shot, if you are in impexp. HMG still hasn't sorted out customs. Partly, reportedly, for fear of the effect on inflation.

And the impact on the "united" bit of the UK remains to be seen, notably but not only in NI.

The UK is out, 100% out.

As a sovereign and independent country it is entirely up to us whether or how we choose to "sort out" customs.

We could choose to waive customs checks from here until eternity, and we'd remain out, that's the point of sovereignty we get to choose what our priorities are rather than having another institution determine what our priorities and checks are.

r
"We don't really need to worry about all those things we Brexiters were going on and on about for decades" isn't entirely a convincing argument.

Especially when sovereignty over a large chunk of the former UK has been signed away in part.

Except customs checks on EU imports weren't something Brexiteers were going on and on about for decades.

I couldn't care less if those checks are waived indefinitely. So long as the UK can implement its own laws domestically, I have no objections whatsoever to recognising EU imports as an equivalence while not being bound to EU laws.

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

I’ve got a general rule of thumb that the bigger the wedding and the more money spent - for a normal young person’s wedding - the more likely they are to divorce, and sooner rather than later

It’s quite an effective predictor: tho not flawless

Some (most?) of the happiest weddings I’ve been to have been the least grand - 30 people in a pub, etc

Yup, I've noticed this too. One of my cousins had a £150k bash at a swanky Mayfair venue, she's now divorced. My wife and I had ~30 people at a church in Basel and ~50 people at a reception in the UK and we're still going strong, I think we spent about £13k in total and everyone had a wonderful evening. There's a performative element to weddings, of course, but I've noticed that the bigger the performance the less secure the relationship. It's classic overcompensation.

I think the biggest controversy at my wedding was that I cut the guest list a lot. We each had ~25 people to invite which meant most of my extended family didn't make it.

Luckyguy1983 said:

...

MaxPB said:

StillWaters said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

MaxPB said:

Stuartinromford said:

MaxPB said:

My wife and I were saying at breakfast that this RAAC scandal typifies the UK's approach to economic development and that it was the same in the 60s and 70s so nothing has changed. Everything is built or made to solve today's problems and fuck the future. Those buildings were made with substandard concrete because the governments of the day didn't want to spend the money on proper concrete and now it's going to cost us 10x as much as today to solve this and replace all of the RAAC in buildings.

We do this in all walks of life too, the UK has got no economic resilience because we never want to spend the 10% extra at the right moments or we cut costs to point where everything behind the curtain is a shit fest.

Today everything is being cut to the bone and our economic resilience is basically zero because the government has decided to prioritise old age spending to buy votes. Back then the same generation who is benefiting from today's largesse decided to cut investment knowing that long term consequences for future generations would be dire.

The baby boomer generation is quite possibly the single most selfish to ever have existed, I hope the next Labour government has got the cojones to tax the fuck out of them, tax the fuck out of inheritance and properly tax high fixed incomes and rent seeking at a significantly higher rate than income. I have very little faith.

Interesting question.

Is the problem with the boomer generation that they're uniquely selfish, or just that they're uniquely numerous which allows them to enact the selfishness that most people would do, given the chance?

Especially now that their parents, the ones who actually experienced wartime deprivation, have passed on and aren't there as a living reality check.

The practical effect is the same, natch, but the political problem and solution is slightly different.

As for government policy after the next election, it doesn't matter what the manifestoes say. Overall, we're going to be paying more for less.

Uniquely selfish in my experience. My uncles are basically all clueless but because they existed in an era when property was cheap they got to retire between 55 and 60 with defined benefit pensions that they closed off for future generations as "unaffordable" but ask them whether their pension is affordable and they both get genuinely offended and defensive that they signed in good faith blah, blah yet it's not affordable for anyone else to have them.

If the Tories want to win in the future they will need to become the party of revolution against the old selfish ****s just as so many other right wing parties are finding in Europe. The next big political divide is already forming, the selfish old vs the working age young.

I think that is simplistic.

For a variety of reasons, growth roughly halved in most Western countries, compared to the rates of 1950-2000.

No, I think it's part of the same discussion. The selfishness is that they know the growth rate had gone down but are unwilling to share the pain of that reduction so have been taking a greater and greater proportion of economic gains for themselves. Spending on investment for future generations, economic resilience and everything outside of old age related areas has been sacrificed as they funnel national growth and productivity gains to themselves. When growth was 4% per year them taking 2% of it wasn't an issue, now that it's 2% per year them taking 2% for themselves is a huge proplblem.

The sanctity of contract undermines our entire economic system. If the government rips them up unilaterally we are behaving no better than Putin did over Yukos.

A brave politician would make the argument - say for retired civil servants - that they should take a 10% cut and the money go into the pot for future civil servants.

But they need to do the legwork

I actually think this is one of the reasons the UK will opt for an IMF sponsored restructuring within the next 7-10 years. It will allow the government to restructure those liabilities with cover from the IMF and hand public sector DB pensioners a 30-40% haircut depending on their benefit amount.

It would be unconscionable to weaken the UK economy deliberately to the point where it needs the IMF. To the extent of being high treason.

Gardenwalker said:

China is astonishingly good at alienating its neighbours.

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

I’ve got a general rule of thumb that the bigger the wedding and the more money spent - for a normal young person’s wedding - the more likely they are to divorce, and sooner rather than later

It’s quite an effective predictor: tho not flawless

Some (most?) of the happiest weddings I’ve been to have been the least grand - 30 people in a pub, etc

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

I’ve got a general rule of thumb that the bigger the wedding and the more money spent - for a normal young person’s wedding - the more likely they are to divorce, and sooner rather than later

It’s quite an effective predictor: tho not flawless

Some (most?) of the happiest weddings I’ve been to have been the least grand - 30 people in a pub, etc

Yup, I've noticed this too. One of my cousins had a £150k bash at a swanky Mayfair venue, she's now divorced. My wife and I had ~30 people at a church in Basel and ~50 people at a reception in the UK and we're still going strong, I think we spent about £13k in total and everyone had a wonderful evening. There's a performative element to weddings, of course, but I've noticed that the bigger the performance the less secure the relationship. It's classic overcompensation.

I think the biggest controversy at my wedding was that I cut the guest list a lot. We each had ~25 people to invite which meant most of my extended family didn't make it.

Absolutely right. And of course an enormously expensive wedding puts financial and emotional stress on the relationship, in itself

Kids: don’t book Westminster Abbey. Have forty friends and fam down the boozer, with a nice beer garden - and enjoy the honeymoon

dixiedean said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

I’ve got a general rule of thumb that the bigger the wedding and the more money spent - for a normal young person’s wedding - the more likely they are to divorce, and sooner rather than later

It’s quite an effective predictor: tho not flawless

Some (most?) of the happiest weddings I’ve been to have been the least grand - 30 people in a pub, etc

Yup, I've noticed this too. One of my cousins had a £150k bash at a swanky Mayfair venue, she's now divorced. My wife and I had ~30 people at a church in Basel and ~50 people at a reception in the UK and we're still going strong, I think we spent about £13k in total and everyone had a wonderful evening. There's a performative element to weddings, of course, but I've noticed that the bigger the performance the less secure the relationship. It's classic overcompensation.

I think the biggest controversy at my wedding was that I cut the guest list a lot. We each had ~25 people to invite which meant most of my extended family didn't make it.

How in holy hell do you spend £150 k on a wedding?

SandyRentool said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

I’ve got a general rule of thumb that the bigger the wedding and the more money spent - for a normal young person’s wedding - the more likely they are to divorce, and sooner rather than later

It’s quite an effective predictor: tho not flawless

Some (most?) of the happiest weddings I’ve been to have been the least grand - 30 people in a pub, etc

I thought you preferred the ones where you got to snort coke and shag one of the bridesmaids?

dixiedean said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

I’ve got a general rule of thumb that the bigger the wedding and the more money spent - for a normal young person’s wedding - the more likely they are to divorce, and sooner rather than later

It’s quite an effective predictor: tho not flawless

Some (most?) of the happiest weddings I’ve been to have been the least grand - 30 people in a pub, etc

Yup, I've noticed this too. One of my cousins had a £150k bash at a swanky Mayfair venue, she's now divorced. My wife and I had ~30 people at a church in Basel and ~50 people at a reception in the UK and we're still going strong, I think we spent about £13k in total and everyone had a wonderful evening. There's a performative element to weddings, of course, but I've noticed that the bigger the performance the less secure the relationship. It's classic overcompensation.

I think the biggest controversy at my wedding was that I cut the guest list a lot. We each had ~25 people to invite which meant most of my extended family didn't make it.

How in holy hell do you spend £150 k on a wedding?

Malmesbury said:

kle4 said:

rottenborough said:

Anne Applebaum @anneapplebaum
It had to happen


NEXTA @nexta_tv

China has declared part of Russia as its territory on new official maps

#China's state-owned Standard Map Service has presented a set of geographic maps for 2023, on which for the first time part of #Russia's territory is indicated as part of China. It is about the Bolshoy Ussuriysky Island on the Amur River.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1696624183470408168

Some people think there's no such thing as Russian or Chinese Imperialism, if you can believe it.

It’s not imperialism to conquer people, erase their culture, engage in wholesale ethnic cleansing.

It’s only imperialism if you did it a hundred years ago.

Sean_F said:

kle4 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Sean_F said:

RochdalePioneers said:

This is bonkers: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/01/ex-tory-mp-apologises-for-ancestors-links-to-slavery

Why does she need to apologise for the actions of her ancestors? Ones that she only just found out existed? Is she responsible for them?

The Conservatives were well rid of her.

I’ve discovered that some of my ancestors fought in 17th century Ireland, and I’m quite sure they acted as 17th century soldiers did. I see no reason to apologise.

Mrs RP has ancestors who fought in the OG IRA. Is she supposed to apologise for what great-great-grandad did a century ago? What does it have to do with her?

But there’s quite a bit of ancestor worship about (see folk on Antiques Roadshow getting applauded for having skilfully acquired a great great gran who bought something that’s now worth thousands), perhaps this is needed as a counterbalance?

I don't think it is at the same level to be honest. Unless you're Arthur Charles Valerian Wellesley, 9th Duke of Wellington, we don't get or rely on social cachet for being related to someone centuries old. Within 1-2 generations, maybe, but not that distant. At best you might have an interestory story to tell or trinket you hold.

Whereas the flagellation movement is all about demonstrating in as overwrought a fashion as possible that you are so much better than some 17th century person, one amongst dozens of ancestors possibly, who may or may not have had an impact on you today.

Pagan2 said:

edmundintokyo said:

OT I'm still finding it hard to believe the British are really going to do this.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/uk-government-very-close-eroding-encryption-worldwide

Sadly they are and its not only the uk pushing this sort of shit law, australia did it, the eu want to do it , the us is pushing Kosa etc.

Signal and whatsapp have already said they will withdraw from the uk market rather than comply

Yes, governments are insistent and not enough of the public give a crap about it, so they don't suffer as a consequence.

Sean_F said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

Perhaps the most corrosive dictum in British public life is Keynes's witty repost, 'in the long run we're all dead'. It belongs in a dictionary of dud epigrams, along with the complete works of Oscar Wilde, but instead it has cast a defining shadow over government policy since the 1930s. On the other hand most of the fine old pre-20th century buildings designed to last centuries were raised with money derived from slavery, colonialism and plunder. We've never really paid our own way - we've just been very inventive finding ways to make others do it for us. And now we've run out of ideas.

Well, we did come up with the Industrial Revolution, which is probably the single greatest blessing that the world has enjoyed.

One not without some downsides admittedly, but to which some people have a bizarre reaction as if the world's population would have been better off without it ever happening.

Without the Industrial Revolution, we’d still have 90% of the world’s population living in absolute poverty, slavery and conquest would be normative, and such wealth as there was would be in the hands of a tiny circle of kings, lords, princes, rajas, and mandarins.

Dura_Ace said:

FF43 said:

On the precise topic, Brexit is a negative for the Conservatives, when it was a positive for them in 2019. The coalition has moved against them.

It's like having a baby that you hate and decide to leave in a cardboard box outside an Aldi,

Leon said:

When are we going to ban these HIDEOUS dogs?

The Tories have been captured by the RSPCA and refuse to do it. Fuck the Tories. This is an open goal for Starmer. Just say you will ban these monstrous things. Polls show a ban is broadly popular. Do it

BartholomewRoberts said:

Carnyx said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Carnyx said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Carnyx said:

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

I suspect that most people (who, bizarrely, don’t read PB) have largely forgotten about it. We are out and it has not proved as transformational as some promised but neither have any of the downsides manifested themselves. The revisals of our GDP earlier this week removed the final remnants of the “economic disaster “ claim but they also showed that we are doing no better than average.
We want a government that can do better and it doesn’t appear to be this one.

Er .... the UK is not "out". Not by a long shot, if you are in impexp. HMG still hasn't sorted out customs. Partly, reportedly, for fear of the effect on inflation.

And the impact on the "united" bit of the UK remains to be seen, notably but not only in NI.

The UK is out, 100% out.

As a sovereign and independent country it is entirely up to us whether or how we choose to "sort out" customs.

We could choose to waive customs checks from here until eternity, and we'd remain out, that's the point of sovereignty we get to choose what our priorities are rather than having another institution determine what our priorities and checks are.

r
"We don't really need to worry about all those things we Brexiters were going on and on about for decades" isn't entirely a convincing argument.

Especially when sovereignty over a large chunk of the former UK has been signed away in part.

Except customs checks on EU imports weren't something Brexiteers were going on and on about for decades.

I couldn't care less if those checks are waived indefinitely. So long as the UK can implement its own laws domestically, I have no objections whatsoever to recognising EU imports as an equivalence while not being bound to EU laws.

"We want to be different from the Europeans" *means* customs checks, at the most fundamental level. To stop all those nasty foreign jars of stuff measured in kg, for instance.

Pretending you don't want them is just not a reasonable argument.

No, it doesn't.

I can drive a Right Hand Drive vehicle that is different to Europeans Left Hand Drive vehicles, even if others import and drive Left Hand Drive vehicles.

Or I can choose to buy goods measured in kg even if others choose to buy goods measured in lb.

No reason that can't apply to other goods and services too.

We can have our own domestic standards that we apply, and if people aren't happy with that and import foreign standards, then there's nothing wrong with that at all.

"One size fits all" is one of the worst things about the EU. When the EEC began it was about recognising standards as equivalents, not unifying them, a return to that is to be welcomed.

More choice. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.

Leon said:

SandyRentool said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

I’ve got a general rule of thumb that the bigger the wedding and the more money spent - for a normal young person’s wedding - the more likely they are to divorce, and sooner rather than later

It’s quite an effective predictor: tho not flawless

Some (most?) of the happiest weddings I’ve been to have been the least grand - 30 people in a pub, etc

I thought you preferred the ones where you got to snort coke and shag one of the bridesmaids?

Oh, I’ve enjoyed those - but then, I’m not paying

My own wedding cost maybe £300

Two guests + two witnesses. Then oysters at Sheekeys

And the 3 year marriage was blissfully happy and we only got divorced coz she wants kids and I’ve had mine. We were still very happy

MaxPB said:

dixiedean said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

I’ve got a general rule of thumb that the bigger the wedding and the more money spent - for a normal young person’s wedding - the more likely they are to divorce, and sooner rather than later

It’s quite an effective predictor: tho not flawless

Some (most?) of the happiest weddings I’ve been to have been the least grand - 30 people in a pub, etc

Yup, I've noticed this too. One of my cousins had a £150k bash at a swanky Mayfair venue, she's now divorced. My wife and I had ~30 people at a church in Basel and ~50 people at a reception in the UK and we're still going strong, I think we spent about £13k in total and everyone had a wonderful evening. There's a performative element to weddings, of course, but I've noticed that the bigger the performance the less secure the relationship. It's classic overcompensation.

I think the biggest controversy at my wedding was that I cut the guest list a lot. We each had ~25 people to invite which meant most of my extended family didn't make it.

How in holy hell do you spend £150 k on a wedding?

Be Indian, I think the most lavish wedding I've been to was about half a million. It was quite incredible but, I mean, it's just one day.

I think the best advice I've been given and give to people who want wedding advice is simple - if you make the best day of your life your wedding day then everything from then on is downhill.

kle4 said:

Leon said:

When are we going to ban these HIDEOUS dogs?

The Tories have been captured by the RSPCA and refuse to do it. Fuck the Tories. This is an open goal for Starmer. Just say you will ban these monstrous things. Polls show a ban is broadly popular. Do it

They're not even an attractive breed.

Stuartinromford said:

Theuniondivvie said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Carnyx said:

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

Beibheirli_C said:

MikeSmithson said:

Test

Did you fail or pass?

Finished early because the exam hall was at risk of collapse.

On topic- it would be interesting to see the split by current views of Brexit. Are the blue to red switchers more Bregretters, or Confident Leavers (Brexit is fine and not in peril)?

I suspect that most people (who, bizarrely, don’t read PB) have largely forgotten about it. We are out and it has not proved as transformational as some promised but neither have any of the downsides manifested themselves. The revisals of our GDP earlier this week removed the final remnants of the “economic disaster “ claim but they also showed that we are doing no better than average.
We want a government that can do better and it doesn’t appear to be this one.

Er .... the UK is not "out". Not by a long shot, if you are in impexp. HMG still hasn't sorted out customs. Partly, reportedly, for fear of the effect on inflation.

And the impact on the "united" bit of the UK remains to be seen, notably but not only in NI.

Folk once passionately attached to leaving the EU and the idea of being a Brexiteer now seem to think it something of little note from which we should all move on.

They could at least try and be subtle about their ‘journey’.

It is not of little note, but it is a part of history now and moving on from history is appropriate. Time to look forward, not back, its done already.

A thing not going well and its proponents wanting everyone to move on is definitely causation rather than correlation.

"That thing we did that you don't like? Stop complaining about it, it's too late now."

Perhaps not the best political slogan ever.

(And I doubt that London Conservatives have that attitude towards, say, ULEZ expansion.)

On smaller things it is actually a pretty effective tactic. The new people coming in often don't have time or energy to focus on it, especially as they want to do something big and sexy to get their place in the history books.

dixiedean said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Got married three years ago and enjoyed it a lot more than first time round.

Nobody bought us a thing. We didn't need it. No trimmings, so plenty of dosh left to spend on bubbly.

Yes, it was all very happy making.

Sigh.

I’ve got a general rule of thumb that the bigger the wedding and the more money spent - for a normal young person’s wedding - the more likely they are to divorce, and sooner rather than later

It’s quite an effective predictor: tho not flawless

Some (most?) of the happiest weddings I’ve been to have been the least grand - 30 people in a pub, etc

Yup, I've noticed this too. One of my cousins had a £150k bash at a swanky Mayfair venue, she's now divorced. My wife and I had ~30 people at a church in Basel and ~50 people at a reception in the UK and we're still going strong, I think we spent about £13k in total and everyone had a wonderful evening. There's a performative element to weddings, of course, but I've noticed that the bigger the performance the less secure the relationship. It's classic overcompensation.

I think the biggest controversy at my wedding was that I cut the guest list a lot. We each had ~25 people to invite which meant most of my extended family didn't make it.

How in holy hell do you spend £150 k on a wedding?

Leon said:

When are we going to ban these HIDEOUS dogs?

The Tories have been captured by the RSPCA and refuse to do it. Fuck the Tories. This is an open goal for Starmer. Just say you will ban these monstrous things. Polls show a ban is broadly popular. Do it

williamglenn said:

NEW WSJ poll showing Trump in commanding shape -- and tied with Biden in general:

Trump 59
DeSantis 13
Haley 8
Ramaswamy 5
Christie 3
Pence 2
Scott 2

78% of Rs: Trump efforts to overturn election "legitimate"

Trump 46
Biden 46 (in general)

https://x.com/joshkraushaar/status/1697970219568763277

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

As an observation I often find the weddings of older people much more enjoyable - even joyous - than trad weddings of 20-somethings. There’s less expectation. Less pressure. They’ve usually spent less money on the big day so it’s less burdensome - or the happy couple already have money so they don’t fret

Also the wedding list can be ignored. They’ve already got nice cutlery

Yes and probably the grandest wedding in modern history? Charles and Diana's and just over a year later they were divorced.

Jordan of course has had lots of very expensive weddings and equally expensive divorces