It has happened at last – Trump indicted – politicalbetting.com

Tbh I've got a bit lost with all the arrests, charges, indictments, arraignments, sealing, sueing and unsealing; state, federal and civil cases Trump has or had against him

Voting centers and ballot drop boxes just closed at 8pm for WA State primary.

Watched via King County Elections webcam as final voters at the voting center at KCE HQ cast their ballots. A couple minutes past 8pm HOWEVER they were already at the counter at that time, so good to go, provided their signatures on outside ballot envelop are validated; in WA elections EVERY returned ballot signature is checked.

Sandpit said:

His supporters will (and are) already dismissing it as politically motivated bulls**t, designed to cover for the corrupt Biden family, and because they know he’s the greatest ever President who will win again, which is why the Establishment wants to get him of the ballot.

Whether that sentiment resonates with the wider US electorate, on the other hand, is a question best left to the reader.

His supporters are batshit crazy. Hopefully the typical wider American electorate is not.

There is an uncanny amount of similarity between Jeremy Corbyn and Donald Trump, so perhaps like his British equivalent it will take a second electoral defeat in November next year to provide the stake through the heart that his form of politics so richly really needs.

Hopefully 6 January was the equivalent of Salisbury where the wider electorate saw his true colors [sic].

The NYT annotates the indictment


A conviction on this charge would be punishable by up to five years in prison. Congress enacted this statute after the Civil War to go after white Southerners, including members of the Ku Klux Klan, who used terrorism to prevent formerly enslaved African Americans from voting. But in a series of 20th-century cases, the Supreme Court upheld an expanded application of the statute to election fraud conspiracies, like ballot box stuffing. Essentially, Mr. Trump, who baselessly said Mr. Biden's narrow victories in swing states like Georgia and Arizona were rigged, is himself accused of trying to rig the electoral outcome in those states in his favor.


https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/08/01/us/politics/trump-jan-6-indictment-2020-election-annotated.html

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

BartholomewRoberts said:

Sandpit said:

His supporters will (and are) already dismissing it as politically motivated bulls**t, designed to cover for the corrupt Biden family, and because they know he’s the greatest ever President who will win again, which is why the Establishment wants to get him of the ballot.

Whether that sentiment resonates with the wider US electorate, on the other hand, is a question best left to the reader.

His supporters are batshit crazy. Hopefully the typical wider American electorate is not.

There is an uncanny amount of similarity between Jeremy Corbyn and Donald Trump, so perhaps like his British equivalent it will take a second electoral defeat in November next year to provide the stake through the heart that his form of politics so richly really needs.

Hopefully 6 January was the equivalent of Salisbury where the wider electorate saw his true colors [sic].

Trump, responding with his customary restraint and good judgment, has sad that Biden is worse than the Nazis.

The Republican line - parroted by the House speaker - is that Biden has engineered the prosecution in some mysterious manner.

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

Not just the US...

But the combined effect of all this is to drag the US in to the gutter.

Nigelb said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

Sure, it’s all the fault of those pesky Democrats.

BartholomewRoberts said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

The Democrats have opened Pandora's box?

It was Donald J Trump who attempted to overthrow an election, not the Democrats.

What absolute tosh, On the same basis either Al Gore or Bush Junior should be in jail.

rcs1000 said:

Why is Musk (and Twitter) suing the Center for Countering Digital Hate?

It's a small charity that's mostly concerned itself with antisemitism on-line, which wrote a report that no-one read, that highlighted a bunch of Twitter posters who (they alleged) breached Twitter's own ToS, yet were still allowed to post.

This reminds me of the McLibel trial. If this goes to court, it's not going to be about the charity on trial, it's going to be about the accounts that they wrote about.

And I just don't see the defamation here: if the CCDH has a good faith reason for believing those Tweets were in contravention of the the ToS (and the hurdle is pretty high for proving they did not), then all that will happen is that Twitter will have drawn massive amounts of attention to a report that no-one would otherwise have ever heard of.

(The cynic would say that there's no intention of winning, merely of frightening other people off writing reports that Twitter find inconvenient.)

Musk is suing because he's a petulant nepo-baby and they called him names. That's it. We keep inferring complex motives, but that's just it. This is what happens if you give such an individual 450 billion USD.

CarlottaVance said:

ANDREW NEIL: Why I'm proud to be a 'TERF' and join JK Rowling on the front line in the gender wars

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12362329/ANDREW-NEIL-Im-proud-TERF-join-JK-Rowling-line-gender-wars.html

Shameless bollocks from a dinosaur mcp.

viewcode said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

I have been saying for months that Trump has a non-trivial chance of winning 2024 and we have to take that possibility seriously, for betting purposes if nothing else.

He has an 80% chance of winning the Republican nomination, and a 40% chance of then winning the Presidency.

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

viewcode said:

rcs1000 said:

viewcode said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

I have been saying for months that Trump has a non-trivial chance of winning 2024 and we have to take that possibility seriously, for betting purposes if nothing else.

He has an 80% chance of winning the Republican nomination, and a 40% chance of then winning the Presidency.

Hold on. Where do you get the second number (40%) from?

Biden should be narrow favourite, I'd reckon given:

(a) The Dems did pretty well at the midterms
(b) Trump has pretty ugly favorables
(c) most patients are reelected

Of course, this could all change in the event that Biden is not the democratic nominee, or if evidence comes out that Hunter was more than a junkie claiming influence he didn't have.

Cicero said:

CarlottaVance said:

ANDREW NEIL: Why I'm proud to be a 'TERF' and join JK Rowling on the front line in the gender wars

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12362329/ANDREW-NEIL-Im-proud-TERF-join-JK-Rowling-line-gender-wars.html

Shameless bollocks from a dinosaur mcp.

The shameless bollocks can be found beneath the skirts of the blokes pretending to be women.

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

You appear to be saying that presidents - or ex-presidents - can do the heck what they want in spite of the law, and never get prosecuted for it. Yes, these prosecutions may be an utter mess and cause more divisions. But if Trump has committed crimes, then he should not be above the law.

And there seems rather good indications that he broken the law on a few occasions - some seriously.

Do you really want presidents (or PMs) to be above the law?

viewcode said:

rcs1000 said:

viewcode said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

I have been saying for months that Trump has a non-trivial chance of winning 2024 and we have to take that possibility seriously, for betting purposes if nothing else.

He has an 80% chance of winning the Republican nomination, and a 40% chance of then winning the Presidency.

Hold on. Where do you get the second number (40%) from?

More interestingly given the latest news, is 40% the chance he wins the Presidency, or the combined chance of him winning or stealing the Presidency....

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

So you're saying laws actually should not apply to him?

That's his attitude, certainly, and that's what's got him into trouble.

Nobody is 'hounding' him, they're enforcing the multiple laws he's deliberately broken for his own gain.

Sandpit said:

If you work for a bank, don’t ever write anything on any company systems that you don’t want to read in a national newspaper.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/01/bank-monzo-jeremy-hunt-refused-account-tories-evil/

“Staff at the bank which refused to give the Chancellor an account described the Conservatives as “evil” and celebrated Tory election losses, The Telegraph can reveal.

“Employees at Monzo, the challenger bank with more than seven million customers, also said Sir Jacob Rees Mogg, the Tory grandee, “could do the human race a favour” by leaving politics and called Harry Potter author JK Rowling “vile”.

“Amid a backlash over the “debanking scandal”, Jeremy Hunt revealed last month he had his application for an account with the lender rejected before he was appointed Chancellor.

“Monzo was also criticised last week after it emerged that it had told Gina Miller, the anti-Brexit campaigner, that it would close her political party’s account.”

TBF, they were only speaking the truth about Mogg.

But they do come across as a bit Trumpite otherwise.

JosiasJessop said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

You appear to be saying that presidents - or ex-presidents - can do the heck what they want in spite of the law, and never get prosecuted for it. Yes, these prosecutions may be an utter mess and cause more divisions. But if Trump has committed crimes, then he should not be above the law.

And there seems rather good indications that he broken the law on a few occasions - some seriously.

Do you really want presidents (or PMs) to be above the law?

Of course not, but why then are all the others not facing prosecutions too ? Hilary and Obama broke confidentiality papers and Biden has questions, his son wouldnt be seeking to plea bargain if there were no crimes, and it has to be established how high those crimes go.

This is simply bad politics. Not that we can be sanctimonious about it we'll bury the crap in a public enquiry which has at least the advantage of stopping things getting overheated. But our PMs are effectively above the law.

Alanbrooke said:

JosiasJessop said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

You appear to be saying that presidents - or ex-presidents - can do the heck what they want in spite of the law, and never get prosecuted for it. Yes, these prosecutions may be an utter mess and cause more divisions. But if Trump has committed crimes, then he should not be above the law.

And there seems rather good indications that he broken the law on a few occasions - some seriously.

Do you really want presidents (or PMs) to be above the law?

Of course not, but why then are all the others not facing prosecutions too ? Hilary and Obama broke confidentiality papers and Biden has questions, his son wouldnt be seeking to plea bargain if there were no crimes, and it has to be established how high those crimes go.

This is simply bad politics. Not that we can be sanctimonious about it we'll bury the crap in a public enquiry which has at least the advantage of stopping things getting overheated. But our PMs are effectively above the law.

Plenty of Americans plea bargain when charged with a crime even when innocent because the legal process is such an expensive faff.

As for Obama and Biden, yes, they broke confidentiality, as did Clinton. It demonstrates they are very arrogant and make mistakes. Trump has done the same. However, we are currently talking about him being indicted for an attempted coup which only failed because Trump is as stupid as he's nasty. Do you honestly think that is comparable to sending emails on the wrong server and lying about it?

(Incidentally if the justice system in America were fully partisan and controlled by politicians why would Trump not have used it to lock up Clinton and Biden? It's worth remembering one of the things he is accused of doing is indeed making criminal allegations against Biden. Oddly, none of them led to an indictment.)

I’ve got a horrible feeling Russia is slowly turning this war around

It is absorbing Ukraine’s attacks. Which essentially go nowhere. It counter attacks in the north and east. There is absolutely no sign of Russia “running out of missiles and drones” - it sent dozens last night and this morning. It is obviously getting new supplies

It is strangling Ukraine’s economy by bombarding the Black Sea coast. It is grinding down the Ukrainian army which has much more limited manpower than Russia

I don’t want to be pessimistic. I want Ukraine to win. But right now in Ukraine it *feels* bad

Alanbrooke said:

JosiasJessop said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

You appear to be saying that presidents - or ex-presidents - can do the heck what they want in spite of the law, and never get prosecuted for it. Yes, these prosecutions may be an utter mess and cause more divisions. But if Trump has committed crimes, then he should not be above the law.

And there seems rather good indications that he broken the law on a few occasions - some seriously.

Do you really want presidents (or PMs) to be above the law?

Of course not, but why then are all the others not facing prosecutions too ? Hilary and Obama broke confidentiality papers and Biden has questions, his son wouldnt be seeking to plea bargain if there were no crimes, and it has to be established how high those crimes go.

This is simply bad politics. Not that we can be sanctimonious about it we'll bury the crap in a public enquiry which has at least the advantage of stopping things getting overheated. But our PMs are effectively above the law.

Hunter has certainly committed (many) crimes. But the timings aren't great for a high conspiracy; his father was out of office at the time that Hunter was promising access to him. And I've yet to hear or read a single specific allegation of a time when Hunter actually used his father to achieve an outcome. Right now, the allegation is - pretty much - "junkie made claims for money". And if you know any junkies, you'll know they'll say almost anything if there's money for a score in there.

And nobody denies that many public figures have broken document retention laws. The difference is that - when called up on it - they've handed papers back and said "my bad". Trump lied about and then instructed people to destroy evidence.

That's perversion of the course of justice, and that's a pretty serious crime everywhere. (And it's also one that appears to be relatively well documented.)

I hate the idea that people are prosecuted for political reasons, whether Clinton or Trump or whoever. But at the same time, having been President can't give you an unlimited shield to allow you to break the law.

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

JosiasJessop said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

You appear to be saying that presidents - or ex-presidents - can do the heck what they want in spite of the law, and never get prosecuted for it. Yes, these prosecutions may be an utter mess and cause more divisions. But if Trump has committed crimes, then he should not be above the law.

And there seems rather good indications that he broken the law on a few occasions - some seriously.

Do you really want presidents (or PMs) to be above the law?

Of course not, but why then are all the others not facing prosecutions too ? Hilary and Obama broke confidentiality papers and Biden has questions, his son wouldnt be seeking to plea bargain if there were no crimes, and it has to be established how high those crimes go.

This is simply bad politics. Not that we can be sanctimonious about it we'll bury the crap in a public enquiry which has at least the advantage of stopping things getting overheated. But our PMs are effectively above the law.

Hunter has certainly committed (many) crimes. But the timings aren't great for a high conspiracy; his father was out of office at the time that Hunter was promising access to him. And I've yet to hear or read a single specific allegation of a time when Hunter actually used his father to achieve an outcome. Right now, the allegation is - pretty much - "junkie made claims for money". And if you know any junkies, you'll know they'll say almost anything if there's money for a score in there.

And nobody denies that many public figures have broken document retention laws. The difference is that - when called up on it - they've handed papers back and said "my bad". Trump lied about and then instructed people to destroy evidence.

That's perversion of the course of justice, and that's a pretty serious crime everywhere. (And it's also one that appears to be relatively well documented.)

I hate the idea that people are prosecuted for political reasons, whether Clinton or Trump or whoever. But at the same time, having been President can't give you an unlimited shield to allow you to break the law.

Boom, boom!

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

JosiasJessop said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

You appear to be saying that presidents - or ex-presidents - can do the heck what they want in spite of the law, and never get prosecuted for it. Yes, these prosecutions may be an utter mess and cause more divisions. But if Trump has committed crimes, then he should not be above the law.

And there seems rather good indications that he broken the law on a few occasions - some seriously.

Do you really want presidents (or PMs) to be above the law?

Of course not, but why then are all the others not facing prosecutions too ? Hilary and Obama broke confidentiality papers and Biden has questions, his son wouldnt be seeking to plea bargain if there were no crimes, and it has to be established how high those crimes go.

This is simply bad politics. Not that we can be sanctimonious about it we'll bury the crap in a public enquiry which has at least the advantage of stopping things getting overheated. But our PMs are effectively above the law.

Plenty of Americans plea bargain when charged with a crime even when innocent because the legal process is such an expensive faff.

As for Obama and Biden, yes, they broke confidentiality, as did Clinton. It demonstrates they are very arrogant and make mistakes. Trump has done the same. However, we are currently talking about him being indicted for an attempted coup which only failed because Trump is as stupid as he's nasty. Do you honestly think that is comparable to sending emails on the wrong server and lying about it?

(Incidentally if the justice system in America were fully partisan and controlled by politicians why would Trump not have used it to lock up Clinton and Biden? It's worth remembering one of the things he is accused of doing is indeed making criminal allegations against Biden. Oddly, none of them led to an indictment.)

"coup" ROFL

You clearly rate Trumps abilities much higher than me. J6 was incompetent policing.

A coup is when a bunch of blokes in tanks turn up in your capital and shut down government and take control of the media. See Russia last month of Niger this.

A big bag of wind sulking that he lost is not a coup. Indeed if there is one thing we saw from Trumps presidency its that hes not very good at organising and coups take a lot of organising.

From the NYT. This does not sound like “winning”, from a Ukrainian perspective

“For the last two months, as Ukrainian troops have tried to break through Russian defenses in a broad counteroffensive to seize back occupied terrain in southern Ukraine, their units have run into dense minefields and heavy Russian artillery fire and drone attacks.

“Each mile is a bloody fight as the counteroffensive has progressed painfully slowly, with units coming up against dug-in Russian defenses and taking heavy casualties. Troops spearheading the offensive have breached the first line of defense in areas in recent days, potentially opening the way for a deeper assault.

“Positioned close to the front lines, the stabilization points, temporary medical posts where patients are stabilized for onward evacuation, have been receiving a constant inflow of soldiers wounded in the fighting. The numbers have been “colossal,” said a medic from the center where the three men from the 110th Brigade were treated.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/world/europe/ukraine-war-casualties-wounded.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Colossal? Ukraine cannot afford “colossal”

Leon said:

From the NYT. This does not sound like “winning”, from a Ukrainian perspective

“For the last two months, as Ukrainian troops have tried to break through Russian defenses in a broad counteroffensive to seize back occupied terrain in southern Ukraine, their units have run into dense minefields and heavy Russian artillery fire and drone attacks.

“Each mile is a bloody fight as the counteroffensive has progressed painfully slowly, with units coming up against dug-in Russian defenses and taking heavy casualties. Troops spearheading the offensive have breached the first line of defense in areas in recent days, potentially opening the way for a deeper assault.

“Positioned close to the front lines, the stabilization points, temporary medical posts where patients are stabilized for onward evacuation, have been receiving a constant inflow of soldiers wounded in the fighting. The numbers have been “colossal,” said a medic from the center where the three men from the 110th Brigade were treated.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/world/europe/ukraine-war-casualties-wounded.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Colossal? Ukraine cannot afford “colossal”

Hang on, are you a different Leon to the Leon who regularly derides the NYT for knowing f all about everything?

Leon said:

I’ve got a horrible feeling Russia is slowly turning this war around

It is absorbing Ukraine’s attacks. Which essentially go nowhere. It counter attacks in the north and east. There is absolutely no sign of Russia “running out of missiles and drones” - it sent dozens last night and this morning. It is obviously getting new supplies

It is strangling Ukraine’s economy by bombarding the Black Sea coast. It is grinding down the Ukrainian army which has much more limited manpower than Russia

I don’t want to be pessimistic. I want Ukraine to win. But right now in Ukraine it *feels* bad

You in UFO territory. They seem to be heading for Crimea from what I read, 20 km or so and they hit the coast and the Russians in south and Crimea are toast. They are slowly advancing in north as well, Russia are f**ked long term regardless.

Leon said:

I’ve got a horrible feeling Russia is slowly turning this war around

It is absorbing Ukraine’s attacks. Which essentially go nowhere. It counter attacks in the north and east. There is absolutely no sign of Russia “running out of missiles and drones” - it sent dozens last night and this morning. It is obviously getting new supplies

It is strangling Ukraine’s economy by bombarding the Black Sea coast. It is grinding down the Ukrainian army which has much more limited manpower than Russia

I don’t want to be pessimistic. I want Ukraine to win. But right now in Ukraine it *feels* bad

However bad you might think it looks in Ukraine, it looks way worse in Russia. They still have many hundreds of body bags per day, have lost more than 3,000 tanks, their economy is being strangled from the inside, and anyone with the money and means to escape has done so or is planning to.

When the fighting is over, Ukraine can look forward to $1trn of international goodwill, and Russia can look forward to $1trn of international sanctions. All those who have left Russia, the wealth creators, well they’re not coming back either.

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

So you're saying laws actually should not apply to him?

That's his attitude, certainly, and that's what's got him into trouble.

Nobody is 'hounding' him, they're enforcing the multiple laws he's deliberately broken for his own gain.

Im saying the laws should apply to everyone and not just one individual. The US justice system is highly partisan and this is using the law to hamper an opponent who it appears cant be beaten by normal means.

That matter alone says what a poor position the Dems have, Worse now that the principle has been established if Trump were to win the election he can quite happily clear out the DoJ, pack it with his place men like Giuliani and lock up who he pleases as the Dems arent exactly choirboys.

And for the record I think that would be a total bag of shit too,

Trump tried to use the justice system to hound his opponents. It didn't work for him because ultimately the law-breaking of say, Hilary Clinton was quite low level. She should not have done what she did, but she was stupid rather than malign.

Her husband was, in case you've forgotten, impeached for his crimes although he wasn't in the end convicted.

Her husbands case I would actually say was the start of this whole sorry saga, The GOP tried to nobble Clinton by foul means and that set off the tit for tat escalation we have seen ever since.

As for Trump using the justice system, well as you say nobody got convicted. But I dont agree with that either , someone somewhere has to put the genie back in the bottle it just wont be either of the two presidential candidates.

Leon said:

From the NYT. This does not sound like “winning”, from a Ukrainian perspective

“For the last two months, as Ukrainian troops have tried to break through Russian defenses in a broad counteroffensive to seize back occupied terrain in southern Ukraine, their units have run into dense minefields and heavy Russian artillery fire and drone attacks.

“Each mile is a bloody fight as the counteroffensive has progressed painfully slowly, with units coming up against dug-in Russian defenses and taking heavy casualties. Troops spearheading the offensive have breached the first line of defense in areas in recent days, potentially opening the way for a deeper assault.

“Positioned close to the front lines, the stabilization points, temporary medical posts where patients are stabilized for onward evacuation, have been receiving a constant inflow of soldiers wounded in the fighting. The numbers have been “colossal,” said a medic from the center where the three men from the 110th Brigade were treated.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/world/europe/ukraine-war-casualties-wounded.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Colossal? Ukraine cannot afford “colossal”

So where does this go. Stalemate while the west ships in more arms and hope for a breakthrough ? Peace negotiations and some compromise ?

Ideally we would all like a swift Ukrainian win and Russia to replace Putin with someone less malign. That seems increasingly unlikely.

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

JosiasJessop said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

You appear to be saying that presidents - or ex-presidents - can do the heck what they want in spite of the law, and never get prosecuted for it. Yes, these prosecutions may be an utter mess and cause more divisions. But if Trump has committed crimes, then he should not be above the law.

And there seems rather good indications that he broken the law on a few occasions - some seriously.

Do you really want presidents (or PMs) to be above the law?

Of course not, but why then are all the others not facing prosecutions too ? Hilary and Obama broke confidentiality papers and Biden has questions, his son wouldnt be seeking to plea bargain if there were no crimes, and it has to be established how high those crimes go.

This is simply bad politics. Not that we can be sanctimonious about it we'll bury the crap in a public enquiry which has at least the advantage of stopping things getting overheated. But our PMs are effectively above the law.

Plenty of Americans plea bargain when charged with a crime even when innocent because the legal process is such an expensive faff.

As for Obama and Biden, yes, they broke confidentiality, as did Clinton. It demonstrates they are very arrogant and make mistakes. Trump has done the same. However, we are currently talking about him being indicted for an attempted coup which only failed because Trump is as stupid as he's nasty. Do you honestly think that is comparable to sending emails on the wrong server and lying about it?

(Incidentally if the justice system in America were fully partisan and controlled by politicians why would Trump not have used it to lock up Clinton and Biden? It's worth remembering one of the things he is accused of doing is indeed making criminal allegations against Biden. Oddly, none of them led to an indictment.)

"coup" ROFL

You clearly rate Trumps abilities much higher than me. J6 was incompetent policing.

Bullshit. It was a violent and illegal attempt to seize power. As you would see if you had actually bothered to read the incitement. That is what we call in English 'a coup.'

And if you find it (a) funny and (b) irrelevant I'm afraid that tells us all we need to know about your political sympathies and why you don't want Trump indicted.

No bad policing stands, you can blame who you want for it.

As for supporting Trump I dont, but nor do I swallow the spin from Biden. Biden and Trump are both bad candidates and like 7 in 10 americans I would rather that wasnt the choice before the electorate,

darkage said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

I’ve got a horrible feeling Russia is slowly turning this war around

It is absorbing Ukraine’s attacks. Which essentially go nowhere. It counter attacks in the north and east. There is absolutely no sign of Russia “running out of missiles and drones” - it sent dozens last night and this morning. It is obviously getting new supplies

It is strangling Ukraine’s economy by bombarding the Black Sea coast. It is grinding down the Ukrainian army which has much more limited manpower than Russia

I don’t want to be pessimistic. I want Ukraine to win. But right now in Ukraine it *feels* bad

However bad you might think it looks in Ukraine, it looks way worse in Russia. They still have many hundreds of body bags per day, have lost more than 3,000 tanks, their economy is being strangled from the inside, and anyone with the money and means to escape has done so or is planning to.

When the fighting is over, Ukraine can look forward to $1trn of international goodwill, and Russia can look forward to $1trn of international sanctions. All those who have left Russia, the wealth creators, well they’re not coming back either.

Given the situation, a likely outcome is that the conflict gets frozen along the current lines, like Korea.

The Ukranians have no interest in giving Russia one square mile of land as a result of their invasion. They’re willing to keep fighting until they run out of men. The worry is that the other countries supplying arms decide to give up on the Ukranians.

malcolmg said:

Leon said:

I’ve got a horrible feeling Russia is slowly turning this war around

It is absorbing Ukraine’s attacks. Which essentially go nowhere. It counter attacks in the north and east. There is absolutely no sign of Russia “running out of missiles and drones” - it sent dozens last night and this morning. It is obviously getting new supplies

It is strangling Ukraine’s economy by bombarding the Black Sea coast. It is grinding down the Ukrainian army which has much more limited manpower than Russia

I don’t want to be pessimistic. I want Ukraine to win. But right now in Ukraine it *feels* bad

You in UFO territory. They seem to be heading for Crimea from what I read, 20 km or so and they hit the coast and the Russians in south and Crimea are toast. They are slowly advancing in north as well, Russia are f**ked long term regardless.

Russia is storing up long term horrors. But the rest of your comment is delusional

Taz said:

Leon said:

From the NYT. This does not sound like “winning”, from a Ukrainian perspective

“For the last two months, as Ukrainian troops have tried to break through Russian defenses in a broad counteroffensive to seize back occupied terrain in southern Ukraine, their units have run into dense minefields and heavy Russian artillery fire and drone attacks.

“Each mile is a bloody fight as the counteroffensive has progressed painfully slowly, with units coming up against dug-in Russian defenses and taking heavy casualties. Troops spearheading the offensive have breached the first line of defense in areas in recent days, potentially opening the way for a deeper assault.

“Positioned close to the front lines, the stabilization points, temporary medical posts where patients are stabilized for onward evacuation, have been receiving a constant inflow of soldiers wounded in the fighting. The numbers have been “colossal,” said a medic from the center where the three men from the 110th Brigade were treated.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/world/europe/ukraine-war-casualties-wounded.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Colossal? Ukraine cannot afford “colossal”

So where does this go. Stalemate while the west ships in more arms and hope for a breakthrough ? Peace negotiations and some compromise ?

Ideally we would all like a swift Ukrainian win and Russia to replace Putin with someone less malign. That seems increasingly unlikely.

Perhaps the west should provide them with the weapons they ask for to destroy the Russian armies on their territory?

We mess around with virtue signalling sanctions and seizing yachts, though I can't think of a single instance of them stopping a determined dictatorship.

It is an absolute disgrace that, eighteen months into this war, the Ukrainians STILL don't have modern jets or long range missiles. Or even enough shells.

Alanbrooke said:

JosiasJessop said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

You appear to be saying that presidents - or ex-presidents - can do the heck what they want in spite of the law, and never get prosecuted for it. Yes, these prosecutions may be an utter mess and cause more divisions. But if Trump has committed crimes, then he should not be above the law.

And there seems rather good indications that he broken the law on a few occasions - some seriously.

Do you really want presidents (or PMs) to be above the law?

Of course not, but why then are all the others not facing prosecutions too ? Hilary and Obama broke confidentiality papers and Biden has questions, his son wouldnt be seeking to plea bargain if there were no crimes, and it has to be established how high those crimes go.

This is simply bad politics. Not that we can be sanctimonious about it we'll bury the crap in a public enquiry which has at least the advantage of stopping things getting overheated. But our PMs are effectively above the law.

They may be prosecuted. Or it might be that no crimes have been committed. It's not as if the Republicans have not been throwing enough mud about, some of it fairly hilarious. "I've got no evidence, but I know that Biden's an evil ***** who dances with the devil and Hilary Clinton at an orgy with underage children beneath a pizza shop."

That does not mean that the stuff Trump has been doing should be ignored.

"But our PMs are effectively above the law."

Tell that to Boris about the party and cake...

Taz said:

Leon said:

From the NYT. This does not sound like “winning”, from a Ukrainian perspective

“For the last two months, as Ukrainian troops have tried to break through Russian defenses in a broad counteroffensive to seize back occupied terrain in southern Ukraine, their units have run into dense minefields and heavy Russian artillery fire and drone attacks.

“Each mile is a bloody fight as the counteroffensive has progressed painfully slowly, with units coming up against dug-in Russian defenses and taking heavy casualties. Troops spearheading the offensive have breached the first line of defense in areas in recent days, potentially opening the way for a deeper assault.

“Positioned close to the front lines, the stabilization points, temporary medical posts where patients are stabilized for onward evacuation, have been receiving a constant inflow of soldiers wounded in the fighting. The numbers have been “colossal,” said a medic from the center where the three men from the 110th Brigade were treated.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/world/europe/ukraine-war-casualties-wounded.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Colossal? Ukraine cannot afford “colossal”

So where does this go. Stalemate while the west ships in more arms and hope for a breakthrough ? Peace negotiations and some compromise ?

Ideally we would all like a swift Ukrainian win and Russia to replace Putin with someone less malign. That seems increasingly unlikely.

The counter offensive could ultimately work; it is too early to conclude it has failed. If it doesn't then the likely outcome is a negotiated stalemate. I don't believe that the current government in Russia could agree a compromise/peace deal. There are some advantages of a stalemate instead of a 'peace deal' - mainly that Ukraine can maintain its readiness to defend itself, rather than relying on dubious 'assurances' from Russia.

Mexicanpete said:

Alanbrooke said:

darkage said:

Alanbrooke said:

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

So you're saying laws actually should not apply to him?

That's his attitude, certainly, and that's what's got him into trouble.

Nobody is 'hounding' him, they're enforcing the multiple laws he's deliberately broken for his own gain.

Im saying the laws should apply to everyone and not just one individual. The US justice system is highly partisan and this is using the law to hamper an opponent who it appears cant be beaten by normal means.

That matter alone says what a poor position the Dems have, Worse now that the principle has been established if Trump were to win the election he can quite happily clear out the DoJ, pack it with his place men like Giuliani and lock up who he pleases as the Dems arent exactly choirboys.

And for the record I think that would be a total bag of shit too,

The problem is that it is very easy to find 'laws that have been broken' on the part of anyone, if you start digging. It is not realistic to maintain that this is an entirely neutral, apolitical process in any context.

I think the Trump thing is very difficult. 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'. You either add fuel to his narrative of conspiracy, or tolerate his most outrageous abuses to try and hold the system together.

The risk is the strategy doesn't work. We get Trump, despite the prosecutions. And then what? It seems to me that this is a likely outcome.

I agree, the best way to handle Trump is to ignore him, dont give him more stuff to grievance monger, The one plus in the whole affair is that he is getting too old to go on much longer, Just sit him out and start afresh.

Au contraire;

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2023/07/20/trump-campaign-presidential-power-grab-2024-election/70430661007/

Yes yes and hell start world war 3, turn america in to a fascist state bankrupt the economy etc. just like he didnt do in 2016. All that article tells you is the election campaign is getting in to gear.

Here's one for @Leon and @WhisperingOracle :

The various ways you can get ghosts in the machine.

https://twitter.com/DrPhiltill/status/1686389982884499458

Having worked a little with RF systems, I support this thread.

Alanbrooke said:

JosiasJessop said:

Incidentally, just booked my first flight in over ten years. Italy for five days.

I'm looking forward to it, but not the flights. I hate flying.

Also my first time to Italy.

Italy is fantastic, where are you going ?

My son's taught himself a fair bit of Latin (finished DuoLingo, and is now trying to translate books). He loves Pompeii, so I'm taking him to Naples for a few days to visit the ruins as a reward. I daresay we'll try to squeeze as much as we can whilst in the Naples area. But it's only four-five days.

It's going to be fairly hot as well, so my plan to climb Vesuvius might not happen...

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

So you're saying laws actually should not apply to him?

That's his attitude, certainly, and that's what's got him into trouble.

Nobody is 'hounding' him, they're enforcing the multiple laws he's deliberately broken for his own gain.

Im saying the laws should apply to everyone and not just one individual. The US justice system is highly partisan and this is using the law to hamper an opponent who it appears cant be beaten by normal means.

That matter alone says what a poor position the Dems have, Worse now that the principle has been established if Trump were to win the election he can quite happily clear out the DoJ, pack it with his place men like Giuliani and lock up who he pleases as the Dems arent exactly choirboys.

And for the record I think that would be a total bag of shit too,

Trump tried to use the justice system to hound his opponents. It didn't work for him because ultimately the law-breaking of say, Hilary Clinton was quite low level. She should not have done what she did, but she was stupid rather than malign.

Her husband was, in case you've forgotten, impeached for his crimes although he wasn't in the end convicted.

Her husbands case I would actually say was the start of this whole sorry saga, The GOP tried to nobble Clinton by foul means and that set off the tit for tat escalation we have seen ever since.

As for Trump using the justice system, well as you say nobody got convicted. But I dont agree with that either , someone somewhere has to put the genie back in the bottle it just wont be either of the two presidential candidates.

Sigh.

The point is he *tried* to use the justice system to nobble his opponents and he failed because what happened wasn't ultimately significant enough to secure an indictment so the lawyers concerned told him 'no.' Had Clinton not handed over her email server, however belatedly and reluctantly, it might have been different. But that was not his call. Just as this is not Biden's. Or anyone in the government.

What's happening now is they *are* indicting him for multiple crimes he has not only committed but is repeatedly doubling down on.

And if you genuinely think January 6th was bad policing, you are profoundly ignorant of what happened. Again, read the indictment. How would 'bad policing,' for example, have led to a crowd gathering at Trump's urging that wanted to lynch the Vice President?

And if you don't think that, well...

No the point is he has been accused of it. He hasnt been convicted of anything,

And he has been accused of it not directly after the event when logically the state would lock up a real and present danger, but just before an election and by a partisan justice system. You draw one conclusion I draw another.

As for the policing issue London regulary gets trashed by people who shout down with the govt but these are riots not coups. And our police despite their critics handle them quite well. And just to wind you up even further J6 wasnt even a decent riot, I grew up in Ulster so I know what a riot looks like there were no petrol bombs, no stones no tear gas. Because all of those thinsg would have required organisation and hard work and Trump is too chaotic .

AlistairM said:

Leon said:

malcolmg said:

Leon said:

I’ve got a horrible feeling Russia is slowly turning this war around

It is absorbing Ukraine’s attacks. Which essentially go nowhere. It counter attacks in the north and east. There is absolutely no sign of Russia “running out of missiles and drones” - it sent dozens last night and this morning. It is obviously getting new supplies

It is strangling Ukraine’s economy by bombarding the Black Sea coast. It is grinding down the Ukrainian army which has much more limited manpower than Russia

I don’t want to be pessimistic. I want Ukraine to win. But right now in Ukraine it *feels* bad

You in UFO territory. They seem to be heading for Crimea from what I read, 20 km or so and they hit the coast and the Russians in south and Crimea are toast. They are slowly advancing in north as well, Russia are f**ked long term regardless.

Russia is storing up long term horrors. But the rest of your comment is delusional

This post is worth a read: https://twitter.com/RaduHossu/status/1686603149258203136?t=3Q6-qurOY8H089F6xWEQmw&s=19

Ukraine have had to work their way through multiple lines of Russian defences with little air cover. We have expected them to deliver quick results in the way the US have in previous engagements but without air superiority.

Ukraine is making slow but steady progress and there are early signs that they may be in a position to make a breakthrough. Until now a lot of the focus has been on degrading Russian logistics as has been seen with bridge destructions and targeting of ammo dumps.

It may be me being optimistic but I think Ukraine will be in an improved position in a month's time.

D-Day was on the 6th June. It took the allies six weeks to capture Caen, which was supposed to be captured in the first few days. We tend to look back at history and think these things happened quicker than they did.

Even last autumn's gains by Ukraine occurred after a lot of preparation and fighting, especially Kherson.

JosiasJessop said:

Leon said:

darkage said:

Taz said:

Leon said:

From the NYT. This does not sound like “winning”, from a Ukrainian perspective

“For the last two months, as Ukrainian troops have tried to break through Russian defenses in a broad counteroffensive to seize back occupied terrain in southern Ukraine, their units have run into dense minefields and heavy Russian artillery fire and drone attacks.

“Each mile is a bloody fight as the counteroffensive has progressed painfully slowly, with units coming up against dug-in Russian defenses and taking heavy casualties. Troops spearheading the offensive have breached the first line of defense in areas in recent days, potentially opening the way for a deeper assault.

“Positioned close to the front lines, the stabilization points, temporary medical posts where patients are stabilized for onward evacuation, have been receiving a constant inflow of soldiers wounded in the fighting. The numbers have been “colossal,” said a medic from the center where the three men from the 110th Brigade were treated.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/world/europe/ukraine-war-casualties-wounded.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Colossal? Ukraine cannot afford “colossal”

So where does this go. Stalemate while the west ships in more arms and hope for a breakthrough ? Peace negotiations and some compromise ?

Ideally we would all like a swift Ukrainian win and Russia to replace Putin with someone less malign. That seems increasingly unlikely.

The counter offensive could ultimately work; it is too early to conclude it has failed. If it doesn't then the likely outcome is a negotiated stalemate. I don't believe that the current government in Russia could agree a compromise/peace deal. There are some advantages of a stalemate instead of a 'peace deal' - mainly that Ukraine can maintain its readiness to defend itself, rather than relying on dubious 'assurances' from Russia.

A agreed stalemate seems likely to me. A muddy armistice

@Sandpit is right that the Ukrainians have no desire to cede an inch of territory to the Russians. The trouble is Ukraine is simply running out of soldiers. If the men dying in the trenches are in their 50s - even late 50s - that is BAD

I fear an exhausted Ukraine will be forced to agree a truce over the winter which may then extend for many months or years as both sides regroup. Russia will keep most of what it’s got - Russify it - and count it as a bloody victory

It ain’t pretty. But that’s my guess

And that will lead to the same thing happening in five years, with Ukraine being invaded again under some pathetic excuse. Putin, and people like him in Russia, want Ukraine.

The 'stalemate' argument is *not* an argument for peace, in the medium or long term.

I agree. Russia has guaranteed itself a long term war with whatever is left of Ukraine. And unremitting hostility from the NATO nations next in line - Finland, Baltics, Poland, etc

However I’m talking short-medium term and in that context I am not optimistic. Russia is gonna hold on to what it’s got - Ukraine does not have the manpower or firepower to take it back. Attack is so much harder than defence, especially with limited forces

I hope the brave Ukrainians embarrass me and prove me stupidly wrong

ydoethur said:

Leon said:

I’ve got a horrible feeling Russia is slowly turning this war around

It is absorbing Ukraine’s attacks. Which essentially go nowhere. It counter attacks in the north and east. There is absolutely no sign of Russia “running out of missiles and drones” - it sent dozens last night and this morning. It is obviously getting new supplies

It is strangling Ukraine’s economy by bombarding the Black Sea coast. It is grinding down the Ukrainian army which has much more limited manpower than Russia

I don’t want to be pessimistic. I want Ukraine to win. But right now in Ukraine it *feels* bad

That's possibly the best news Ukraine have had in 18 months.

To be definitive, it would need Roger to pronounce.

JosiasJessop said:

Leon said:

darkage said:

Taz said:

Leon said:

From the NYT. This does not sound like “winning”, from a Ukrainian perspective

“For the last two months, as Ukrainian troops have tried to break through Russian defenses in a broad counteroffensive to seize back occupied terrain in southern Ukraine, their units have run into dense minefields and heavy Russian artillery fire and drone attacks.

“Each mile is a bloody fight as the counteroffensive has progressed painfully slowly, with units coming up against dug-in Russian defenses and taking heavy casualties. Troops spearheading the offensive have breached the first line of defense in areas in recent days, potentially opening the way for a deeper assault.

“Positioned close to the front lines, the stabilization points, temporary medical posts where patients are stabilized for onward evacuation, have been receiving a constant inflow of soldiers wounded in the fighting. The numbers have been “colossal,” said a medic from the center where the three men from the 110th Brigade were treated.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/02/world/europe/ukraine-war-casualties-wounded.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Colossal? Ukraine cannot afford “colossal”

So where does this go. Stalemate while the west ships in more arms and hope for a breakthrough ? Peace negotiations and some compromise ?

Ideally we would all like a swift Ukrainian win and Russia to replace Putin with someone less malign. That seems increasingly unlikely.

The counter offensive could ultimately work; it is too early to conclude it has failed. If it doesn't then the likely outcome is a negotiated stalemate. I don't believe that the current government in Russia could agree a compromise/peace deal. There are some advantages of a stalemate instead of a 'peace deal' - mainly that Ukraine can maintain its readiness to defend itself, rather than relying on dubious 'assurances' from Russia.

A agreed stalemate seems likely to me. A muddy armistice

@Sandpit is right that the Ukrainians have no desire to cede an inch of territory to the Russians. The trouble is Ukraine is simply running out of soldiers. If the men dying in the trenches are in their 50s - even late 50s - that is BAD

I fear an exhausted Ukraine will be forced to agree a truce over the winter which may then extend for many months or years as both sides regroup. Russia will keep most of what it’s got - Russify it - and count it as a bloody victory

It ain’t pretty. But that’s my guess

And that will lead to the same thing happening in five years, with Ukraine being invaded again under some pathetic excuse. Putin, and people like him in Russia, want Ukraine.

The 'stalemate' argument is *not* an argument for peace, in the medium or long term.

Its not something that anyone wants. It is just a prediction of what will happen if 'beat back Russia' fails. The latter strategy worked for a while but may have now reached its limits.

The countries that back Ukraine are unlikely to support an endless war.

Foxy said:

Trump is acting like a mad gang boss with a personal vendetta and Americans are crazy enough to re-elect him. The Vox pops from Trump rallies are so full of delusional conspiracy stuff that 4 more years of Trump are a nightmare that looks likely to happen.

I don't bet much on American politics because it is too bonkers to predict. It would be fun if it didn't matter, but it does.

Yep, to unite the two threads on here currently - Putin knows he just has to wait for a Trump presidential election victory and the entire picture changes. And Trump has a great chance to win. Biden is a decent to good president, he will be an utterly disastrous candidate.

All those saying they're as bad as each other will never admit how important Biden has been to helping Ukraine fend off Putin. And they’ll blame France and Germany when Trump scales US involvement back.

But the blame game won’t change the facts on the ground. Without substantial and continued US aid, Ukraine will be on the back foot very quickly. That will have massive implications for all of us, while emboldening China in East Asia generally and with regards to Taiwan specifically.

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

ydoethur said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

So you're saying laws actually should not apply to him?

That's his attitude, certainly, and that's what's got him into trouble.

Nobody is 'hounding' him, they're enforcing the multiple laws he's deliberately broken for his own gain.

Im saying the laws should apply to everyone and not just one individual. The US justice system is highly partisan and this is using the law to hamper an opponent who it appears cant be beaten by normal means.

That matter alone says what a poor position the Dems have, Worse now that the principle has been established if Trump were to win the election he can quite happily clear out the DoJ, pack it with his place men like Giuliani and lock up who he pleases as the Dems arent exactly choirboys.

And for the record I think that would be a total bag of shit too,

Trump tried to use the justice system to hound his opponents. It didn't work for him because ultimately the law-breaking of say, Hilary Clinton was quite low level. She should not have done what she did, but she was stupid rather than malign.

Her husband was, in case you've forgotten, impeached for his crimes although he wasn't in the end convicted.

Her husbands case I would actually say was the start of this whole sorry saga, The GOP tried to nobble Clinton by foul means and that set off the tit for tat escalation we have seen ever since.

As for Trump using the justice system, well as you say nobody got convicted. But I dont agree with that either , someone somewhere has to put the genie back in the bottle it just wont be either of the two presidential candidates.

Sigh.

The point is he *tried* to use the justice system to nobble his opponents and he failed because what happened wasn't ultimately significant enough to secure an indictment so the lawyers concerned told him 'no.' Had Clinton not handed over her email server, however belatedly and reluctantly, it might have been different. But that was not his call. Just as this is not Biden's. Or anyone in the government.

What's happening now is they *are* indicting him for multiple crimes he has not only committed but is repeatedly doubling down on.

And if you genuinely think January 6th was bad policing, you are profoundly ignorant of what happened. Again, read the indictment. How would 'bad policing,' for example, have led to a crowd gathering at Trump's urging that wanted to lynch the Vice President?

And if you don't think that, well...

I note from the indictment that his own White House Chief of Staff has testified against him.

Nigelb said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

viewcode said:

CarlottaVance said:

As a Watergate historian, it’s worth noting that nothing Nixon did—and he had plenty of crimes and conspiracies, involving more than 60 people criminally charged—approached the scale and severity of Trump’s assault on American democracy.
https://twitter.com/vermontgmg/status/1686531761352609792?s=20

Good point. Viewed at this remove, Nixon's crimes appear almost quaint in comparison

This isnt a crime story its a politics one

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/01/trump-biden-2024-presidential-election-white-house-poll/

The Democrats have opened Pandoras box and this could go anywhere . THe US is screwed

"Lock her up" was shouted by who, again?

And, it's the Democrats fault that Donald Trump allegedly committed crimes?

You can call a "pox on both your houses" with some degree of accuracy. But to point to the Dems and say the ball is entirely in your court - as you are doing - is willfully blind.

Now, I really, really hate the idea that governments use their political power to pursue political opponents. (Like Trump and the IRS vs Comey, for example.) But at the same time, should your political position shield you from all legal liability?

What of the upcoming tax/wirefraud case in NY? Trump valued properties at one price for the tax authorities and another for mortgages. And this wasn't a 10% difference, it was a multiple. People go to jail for that kind of thing all the time. Should he not be prosecuted, solely because he was President?

What is it about Trump that make otherwise sensible people lose their marbles ?

Hounding Trump will achieve precisely nothing except to make him more popular with his supporters and make diviisions in US society deeper.

As for the legal guff, Hilary is still walking free and has never been near a court nd I dont think anyome seriously expects the Biden\Hunter mess to be investigated before an election.

It must have escaped your notice that Congress have been doing just that - and appear to have turned up nothing at all that implicates the President.

His son has been charged with crimes - having faced more Congressional investigation than any private citizen in the last couple of decades -and is currently having his plea deal reviewed by a Republican appointed judge.
Unlike various members of Trump's family, he's never held any position in the administration.

Your both sides-ism is feeble.

It really should be feeble but its actually powerful enough that it may play a part in the end of US democracy. It gives "respectable" Republicans enough cover to hold their noses and vote for a quite mad and dangerous President.