How the LDs are using their by-election victories – politicalbetting.com
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He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.3 -
You guys took one hell of a beatingviewcode said:
We didn't start the fire...Luckyguy1983 said:
Worst version of Madonna's rap from 'Vogue' ever?viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
1 -
Today's Scottish Govt Paper, in between the numerous blank spaces, airily claims that Scotland would continue in the Common Travel Area.Omnium said:
Even if all the deck chairs were perfectly aligned I really struggle to see Scotland becoming part of the EU. That changes of course if the UK, or a devolved England does.CarlottaVance said:
edit: prior stuff cut out
But it will speed up Scotland's entry to the EU.....so that's OK.....
Realistically though I think its almost impossible.
That is not within their gift. But they are going to have a Burgundy Passport.2 -
Did he shift elite opinion? I don't think he did.Nigelb said:
Jezza.viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
mutters to self
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)0 -
Farage isn't dangerous. Denial of whatever he might choose to rant about is.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
I'll never vote for him, but I'll always listen to him.
The proper place for Farage is the Lords.2 -
Don't just stand there, man the picketLuckyguy1983 said:
Worst version of Madonna's rap from 'Vogue' ever?viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
Striking's how we work our ticket1 -
Walking through a Cornish fishing village today I saw a sign advertising a forthcoming dramatic performance in a tiny neighbouring village's church hall. Of the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists.viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
mutters to self
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
The mood of the country has shifted. Labour victory incoming!2 -
I don't know.TimS said:
Did he shift elite opinion? I don't think he did.Nigelb said:
Jezza.viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
mutters to self
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
You could argue that the Tories are in a perpetual state of fear that Farage will do something similar to their party - and have determined that they will do it first, themselves.1 -
Though in 1924 (following the March on Rome) Mussolini took power and got 64% of the vote in the election, but the party was officially the "National List" were there any elections after that?viewcode said:
Some of you may remember @Ishmael_Z , who for two-thirds of the time could be a reasonably pleasant commentator who made interesting points. He asked one day if there had ever been an elected political party with "fascist" in the title. I damn nearly cried. PB beats on, borne back ceaselessly into the present...Foxy said:
Jeremy Corbyn!viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
mutters to self
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
0 -
Well, it's not a conspiracy but if it were, what exactly would look different?Richard_Tyndall said:
True lunacy cannot be suppressed. And to be fair Grayling doesn't even try.williamglenn said:
A sober claim:Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
Living in today's Brexitland is living in a cesspit of corruption & cryptofacism. And this is a sober claim, not hyperbole: the agents of this are acting undisguisedly in broad daylight.
Take a short position on a bank then engineer a fall in its share price? Anarcho-capitalism.
https://twitter.com/acgrayling/status/16845160473936199680 -
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.0 -
Scott has started his own Twitter account?williamglenn said:
A sober claim:Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
Living in today's Brexitland is living in a cesspit of corruption & cryptofacism. And this is a sober claim, not hyperbole: the agents of this are acting undisguisedly in broad daylight.
Take a short position on a bank then engineer a fall in its share price? Anarcho-capitalism.
https://twitter.com/acgrayling/status/16845160473936199681 -
BUFFoxy said:
Though in 1924 (following the March on Rome) Mussolini took power and got 64% of the vote in the election, but the party was officially the "National List" were there any elections after that?viewcode said:
Some of you may remember @Ishmael_Z , who for two-thirds of the time could be a reasonably pleasant commentator who made interesting points. He asked one day if there had ever been an elected political party with "fascist" in the title. I damn nearly cried. PB beats on, borne back ceaselessly into the present...Foxy said:
Jeremy Corbyn!viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
mutters to self
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)0 -
Brexit wouldn't have happened without Farage. Along with the two Etonian PMs, the three of them were each necessary and jointly sufficient.Foxy said:
What does he engage with that no other mainstream lpolitician doesn't? We have a government constantly banging on about migrants etc.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
They though are in the more difficult position of actually having to do something, rather than sounding off like a saloon room bore.
What policy has Farage ever delivered in his years in politics? Even Brexit wasn't delivered by him, and increasingly that is the Tory Party's concrete overshoes.
(Maybe Corbyn as Labour leader was necessary too, that's debatable).0 -
Being on the fence was better than lying face down in the ditch.williamglenn said:
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.1 -
I wouldn't say it was the consensus of the politicians but it was the where the centre of gravity of public opinion had moved toward.williamglenn said:
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.0 -
There are productions of that play all the time. Chichester Festival Theatre did one in 2010. The Coalition got in that year and Chichester remains Conservative.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Walking through a Cornish fishing village today I saw a sign advertising a forthcoming dramatic performance in a tiny neighbouring village's church hall. Of the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists.viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
mutters to self
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
The mood of the country has shifted. Labour victory incoming!0 -
If you have to ask that question then you'll never understand the answer.Foxy said:
What does he engage with that no other mainstream lpolitician doesn't? We have a government constantly banging on about migrants etc.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
They though are in the more difficult position of actually having to do something, rather than sounding off like a saloon room bore.
What policy has Farage ever delivered in his years in politics? Even Brexit wasn't delivered by him, and increasingly that is the Tory Party's concrete overshoes.1 -
I think Farage is a large part of the reason we got a Brexit referendum. Would UKIP have scored anywhere near as highly without him?Omnium said:
Farage isn't dangerous. Denial of whatever he might choose to rant about is.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
I'll never vote for him, but I'll always listen to him.
The proper place for Farage is the Lords.
There is a key moment - an inflection point of crucial importance to British political history - which if it had turned out differently might have changed things massively. Either for the better (no Brexit, no Boris, UK still doing OK economically), or for the worse (no Brexit, no lancing of the boil of populism, someone more dangerous grows to lead a more powerful far right). That was his plane crash in 2010. He was very lucky to escape with a few cuts and bruises.1 -
Also the Lib Dem’s blocking an earlier referendum.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Brexit wouldn't have happened without Farage. Along with the two Etonian PMs, the three of them were each necessary and jointly sufficient.Foxy said:
What does he engage with that no other mainstream lpolitician doesn't? We have a government constantly banging on about migrants etc.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
They though are in the more difficult position of actually having to do something, rather than sounding off like a saloon room bore.
What policy has Farage ever delivered in his years in politics? Even Brexit wasn't delivered by him, and increasingly that is the Tory Party's concrete overshoes.
(Maybe Corbyn as Labour leader was necessary too, that's debatable).0 -
Well yes. He's the greatest politician of our time. Perhaps arguably of all time. That doesn't mean we have to like him or agree with him.TimS said:
I think Farage is a large part of the reason we got a Brexit referendum. Would UKIP have scored anywhere near as highly without him?Omnium said:
Farage isn't dangerous. Denial of whatever he might choose to rant about is.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
I'll never vote for him, but I'll always listen to him.
The proper place for Farage is the Lords.
There is a key moment - an inflection point of crucial importance to British political history - which if it had turned out differently might have changed things massively. Either for the better (no Brexit, no Boris, UK still doing OK economically), or for the worse (no Brexit, no lancing of the boil of populism, someone more dangerous grows to lead a more powerful far right). That was his plane crash in 2010. He was very lucky to escape with a few cuts and bruises.0 -
The populist left doesn't seem as potent (electorally) as the populist right. I think probably the main reason for this is it majors on economic matters ('soak the rich' etc) rather than pushing buttons around 'nation' and 'identity' and 'patriotism'. I personally find this stuff highly objectionable but it undeniably has wide appeal. Eg it's a big part of what drove Brexit.TimS said:
It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.Cicero said:
The "elite's" idea of a man in touch with the proles, rather than the twatmeister he actually is?Stuartinromford said:
Some poll wrangling on the subject:Northern_Al said:
Private Eye now call him Lee Anderthal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, it's similar to Lee Anderson. There is a general media assumption that the salt of the earth white working class in England are very right wing. Obviously, you can only hold such an opinion if you don't get out much! More seriously, Farage and Anderson are on the Boomer/Gen X dividing line. The same generation as many senior media decision makers and newspaper columnists (and hard copy readers). They are a very recognisable type that probably existed much more widely 20 years ago. Their passing into serious minority status in the normal world has not been noticed because most senior media folk and newspaper columnists do not live in the normal world.Ghedebrav said:
And yet there's nothing behind the curtain. It is bizarre.SouthamObserver said:Farage is a one man shorting machine. He can clearly get massive media coverage, generate action from the current UK government and so move markets. If he targets a publicly-quoted business, then that business has a serious problem. It’s like shareholder activism, but without the shares. That is serious power.
I wonder how much of this is our generally posh media thinking (wrongly) that Nige is a voice of 'the working clahs' with their awful flags and their chips and whatnot and so giving him a constant platform that vastly outweighs his actual political achievements is an easy shortcut to giving a voice to that group?
They are in absolute thrall to the guy, and I just don't get it.
Mildly amusing and quite apt, I thought.
Farage's appeal to 'the ordinary public' has always been overstated. There is no doubt he is a good politician and that his plain speaking appeals to some. But I think what is often missed is that his strength lies in shifting *elite*, rather than popular opinion.
https://twitter.com/LukeTryl/status/1684503488477163522
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.0 -
For @Leon
Here's my interpretation of what's happening in DC:
These people are like millenarian cultists. The UFO is their savior and higher power. The telltale sign is always the huge gap between what they believe (which is full of amazing claims) and what they actually prove (which is always very little). The gap never bothers them—because this what millenarians always do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenarianism
The personality profile of the millenarian is very similar to the utopian AT advocates who are now a growing faith group—they also explain away all sorts of embarrassing AI mishaps (lying, plagiarizing, etc.), because that's what millenarians do. They have identified their 'higher power' and thus have put all doubt aside.
The only difference now is that these UFO cultists work for the government. And that's simply because a true believing senator provided funds to hire a bunch of them. But giving cultists a government badge doesn't change anything. They still operate on hearsay and blind faith, and even when given a huge media spotlight at a congressional hearing, can only repeat their fantastic tales.
https://twitter.com/tedgioia/status/16845939220167843842 -
Yes he is a one man focus group for CCHQ. And he has quite some track record so of course they should take note.Nigelb said:
I don't know.TimS said:
Did he shift elite opinion? I don't think he did.Nigelb said:
Jezza.viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
mutters to self
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
You could argue that the Tories are in a perpetual state of fear that Farage will do something similar to their party - and have determined that they will do it first, themselves.
He does indeed articulate what many wish could be said and of course also he overdoes it but he certainly knows that the message will get across.0 -
I don't see him as any more negative than figures like Alastair Campbell, Alex Salmond or Glenda Jackson. And I'd say he's better than Lloyd Russell-Moyle or John McDonnell. It really is in the eye of the beholder.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
His opposition to the Euro, the EU constitution and the Lisbon Treaty certainly had a positive effect in the noughties, as far as I'm concerned, as has his calling out of Wokery early on.
I think it's a good thing to have a political challenge to any fashionable consensus position across all mainstream political parties - it forces them to think and prevents bad policy.2 -
Farage has to be seen in the context of post war UK politics and policy. There are two long term and massive multi party policies which have changed the face of the UK. One is in relation to the EU and how we have allowed it to be structured, the other in relation to creating a UK with enormous global input in terms of population, altering its ethnic and cultural nature dramatically in a number of places.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
In neither policy has the voter been very clearly consulted as these things have gone along. Neither the past nor the present situation has the degree of voter consent, and losers consent, that would be desirable.
We end up with a Brexit vote where neither Remain nor Leave has either overwhelming support or losers' consent. We have to be in the EU because of its trading importance, but can't be in it on account of political union.
And we end up in a situation where the birthrate is tiny, but the population rises very rapidly.
This leading country, instead of producing so many top medics etc that we can help developing countries by staffing their hospitals scandalously ask them to staff ours.
Farage (who I do not support) merely reflects the failure of UK statecraft over 60 years. Don't blame him because the grown ups have done badly.2 -
Nigel Farage and two Etonian PMs all raging against the Establishment.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Brexit wouldn't have happened without Farage. Along with the two Etonian PMs, the three of them were each necessary and jointly sufficient.Foxy said:
What does he engage with that no other mainstream lpolitician doesn't? We have a government constantly banging on about migrants etc.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
They though are in the more difficult position of actually having to do something, rather than sounding off like a saloon room bore.
What policy has Farage ever delivered in his years in politics? Even Brexit wasn't delivered by him, and increasingly that is the Tory Party's concrete overshoes.
(Maybe Corbyn as Labour leader was necessary too, that's debatable).1 -
No really, what policy is he advocating now that other "mainstream politicians" do not?Casino_Royale said:
If you have to ask that question then you'll never understand the answer.Foxy said:
What does he engage with that no other mainstream lpolitician doesn't? We have a government constantly banging on about migrants etc.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
They though are in the more difficult position of actually having to do something, rather than sounding off like a saloon room bore.
What policy has Farage ever delivered in his years in politics? Even Brexit wasn't delivered by him, and increasingly that is the Tory Party's concrete overshoes.0 -
Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)0 -
Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.1 -
I think that's wishful thinking.TimS said:
I think Farage is a large part of the reason we got a Brexit referendum. Would UKIP have scored anywhere near as highly without him?Omnium said:
Farage isn't dangerous. Denial of whatever he might choose to rant about is.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
I'll never vote for him, but I'll always listen to him.
The proper place for Farage is the Lords.
There is a key moment - an inflection point of crucial importance to British political history - which if it had turned out differently might have changed things massively. Either for the better (no Brexit, no Boris, UK still doing OK economically), or for the worse (no Brexit, no lancing of the boil of populism, someone more dangerous grows to lead a more powerful far right). That was his plane crash in 2010. He was very lucky to escape with a few cuts and bruises.
A Brexit vote was inevitable, and even Brexit itself might have been - if not in 2016 it would have been close and happened later instead.1 -
And notably many of the most prominent populist leftwingers have had a national and identitarian angle to their ideology. Often anti-US/West (Chavez and Maduro, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Kim Il Sung) or separatists / anti-colonial like the Basques and Catalans in the civil war, arguably Sinn Fein, or supporting the rights of a repressed ethnic group like Mandela or Mugabe.kinabalu said:
The populist left doesn't seem as potent (electorally) as the populist right. I think probably the main reason for this is it majors on economic matters ('soak the rich' etc) rather than pushing buttons around 'nation' and 'identity' and 'patriotism'. I personally find this stuff highly objectionable but it undeniably has wide appeal. Eg it's a big part of what drove Brexit.TimS said:
It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.Cicero said:
The "elite's" idea of a man in touch with the proles, rather than the twatmeister he actually is?Stuartinromford said:
Some poll wrangling on the subject:Northern_Al said:
Private Eye now call him Lee Anderthal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, it's similar to Lee Anderson. There is a general media assumption that the salt of the earth white working class in England are very right wing. Obviously, you can only hold such an opinion if you don't get out much! More seriously, Farage and Anderson are on the Boomer/Gen X dividing line. The same generation as many senior media decision makers and newspaper columnists (and hard copy readers). They are a very recognisable type that probably existed much more widely 20 years ago. Their passing into serious minority status in the normal world has not been noticed because most senior media folk and newspaper columnists do not live in the normal world.Ghedebrav said:
And yet there's nothing behind the curtain. It is bizarre.SouthamObserver said:Farage is a one man shorting machine. He can clearly get massive media coverage, generate action from the current UK government and so move markets. If he targets a publicly-quoted business, then that business has a serious problem. It’s like shareholder activism, but without the shares. That is serious power.
I wonder how much of this is our generally posh media thinking (wrongly) that Nige is a voice of 'the working clahs' with their awful flags and their chips and whatnot and so giving him a constant platform that vastly outweighs his actual political achievements is an easy shortcut to giving a voice to that group?
They are in absolute thrall to the guy, and I just don't get it.
Mildly amusing and quite apt, I thought.
Farage's appeal to 'the ordinary public' has always been overstated. There is no doubt he is a good politician and that his plain speaking appeals to some. But I think what is often missed is that his strength lies in shifting *elite*, rather than popular opinion.
https://twitter.com/LukeTryl/status/1684503488477163522
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.0 -
Considering immigration and the EU have been major debates at least since the Sixties ("If you want a n****r for a neighbour, vote Labour" and "Rivers of Blood" were both in the Sixties) and EU membership a major issue at GE's in Sixties, Seventies, Eighties and onwards, as well as 2 referendums; in what way do you think the people of Britain should have been consulted that wasn't taken?algarkirk said:
Farage has to be seen in the context of post war UK politics and policy. There are two long term and massive multi party policies which have changed the face of the UK. One is in relation to the EU and how we have allowed it to be structured, the other in relation to creating a UK with enormous global input in terms of population, altering its ethnic and cultural nature dramatically in a number of places.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
In neither policy has the voter been very clearly consulted as these things have gone along. Neither the past nor the present situation has the degree of voter consent, and losers consent, that would be desirable.
We end up with a Brexit vote where neither Remain nor Leave has either overwhelming support or losers' consent. We have to be in the EU because of its trading importance, but can't be in it on account of political union.
And we end up in a situation where the birthrate is tiny, but the population rises very rapidly.
This leading country, instead of producing so many top medics etc that we can help developing countries by staffing their hospitals scandalously ask them to staff ours.
Farage (who I do not support) merely reflects the failure of UK statecraft over 60 years. Don't blame him because the grown ups have done badly.0 -
So Farage wants to send us back to the 1950s and Anabob wants to send us back to the Upper Palaeolithic.Northern_Al said:
Yes you would. It was a cashless society back then.Carnyx said:
Bit unfair. Neanderthals had enlarged ideas on diet. Evverything from mammoth to crab to nuts. You won't get that for 30p.Northern_Al said:
Private Eye now call him Lee Anderthal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, it's similar to Lee Anderson. There is a general media assumption that the salt of the earth white working class in England are very right wing. Obviously, you can only hold such an opinion if you don't get out much! More seriously, Farage and Anderson are on the Boomer/Gen X dividing line. The same generation as many senior media decision makers and newspaper columnists (and hard copy readers). They are a very recognisable type that probably existed much more widely 20 years ago. Their passing into serious minority status in the normal world has not been noticed because most senior media folk and newspaper columnists do not live in the normal world.Ghedebrav said:
And yet there's nothing behind the curtain. It is bizarre.SouthamObserver said:Farage is a one man shorting machine. He can clearly get massive media coverage, generate action from the current UK government and so move markets. If he targets a publicly-quoted business, then that business has a serious problem. It’s like shareholder activism, but without the shares. That is serious power.
I wonder how much of this is our generally posh media thinking (wrongly) that Nige is a voice of 'the working clahs' with their awful flags and their chips and whatnot and so giving him a constant platform that vastly outweighs his actual political achievements is an easy shortcut to giving a voice to that group?
They are in absolute thrall to the guy, and I just don't get it.
Mildly amusing and quite apt, I thought. 3 -
The thing that distinguishes him from those others on the debit side is his simpering for Putin. It's fortunately a rare thing in Britain whereas the US seems to be throbbing with Vatniks.Casino_Royale said:
I don't see him as any more negative than figures like Alastair Campbell, Alex Salmond or Glenda Jackson. And I'd say he's better than Lloyd Russell-Moyle or John McDonnell. It really is in the eye of the beholder.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
His opposition to the Euro, the EU constitution and the Lisbon Treaty certainly had a positive effect in the noughties, as far as I'm concerned, as has his calling out of Wokery early on.
I think it's a good thing to have a political challenge to any fashionable consensus position across all mainstream political parties - it forces them to think and prevents bad policy.1 -
But, storming out of the House of Commons in a theatrical strop several years earlier because they didn't get one then.Malmesbury said:
Also the Lib Dem’s blocking an earlier referendum.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Brexit wouldn't have happened without Farage. Along with the two Etonian PMs, the three of them were each necessary and jointly sufficient.Foxy said:
What does he engage with that no other mainstream lpolitician doesn't? We have a government constantly banging on about migrants etc.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
They though are in the more difficult position of actually having to do something, rather than sounding off like a saloon room bore.
What policy has Farage ever delivered in his years in politics? Even Brexit wasn't delivered by him, and increasingly that is the Tory Party's concrete overshoes.
(Maybe Corbyn as Labour leader was necessary too, that's debatable).2 -
Yes and no.Casino_Royale said:A Brexit vote was inevitable
When the BBC put Nigel Fucking Farage on Question Time every week for 3 years, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
When Tory politicians ran scared of him instead of laughing at him, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
He tried to get elected 7 times, and 7 times the voters told him where to stick it.
If the 'establishment' had done the same, Brexit was not inevitable.2 -
This is nothing new. I remember this happened to the surviving members of the Bridgwater Four, wrongly jailed for the murder of a paperboy in 1978.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)
They lost about 25% of their compensation.3 -
The Euro was about the most decisive moment at which the intentions of the federalists was clear and obvious, and either the entire project had to be scuppered or else we would at some point leave. The Major compromise was remarkable in getting the EU to face two ways at once, but Cameron's failure get get minimal concessions showed the long term direction. At that point it was essential to be in the EU and essential to leave. as we are discovering, this is not sustainable. The same would have been revealed if the 52-48 had gone the other way.williamglenn said:
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
0 -
The Telegraph has been reading PB. This is exactly the question I raised yesterday evening.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)4 -
You know, it was the remain camp who lost the vote by failing to make the case which should have been far easierScott_xP said:
Yes and no.Casino_Royale said:A Brexit vote was inevitable
When the BBC put Nigel Fucking Farage on Question Time every week for 3 years, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
When Tory politicians ran scared of him instead of laughing at him, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
He tried to get elected 7 times, and 7 times the voters told him where to stick it.
If the 'establishment' had done the same, Brexit was not inevitable.
Yes Farage was a forceful campaigner, but the establishment took the electorate for granted hence why vote leave won2 -
I don't think they won an election under that name.Malmesbury said:
BUFFoxy said:
Though in 1924 (following the March on Rome) Mussolini took power and got 64% of the vote in the election, but the party was officially the "National List" were there any elections after that?viewcode said:
Some of you may remember @Ishmael_Z , who for two-thirds of the time could be a reasonably pleasant commentator who made interesting points. He asked one day if there had ever been an elected political party with "fascist" in the title. I damn nearly cried. PB beats on, borne back ceaselessly into the present...Foxy said:
Jeremy Corbyn!viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
mutters to self
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)0 -
Yep that is a good metaphore for where we would have been had we stayed in the EU.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being on the fence was better than lying face down in the ditch.williamglenn said:
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.0 -
No worries, I always had you pegged as someone who preferred those of us in a far away country to be under the unelected aegis of the passport fetishists, several of whom have frotted themselves to death over the colour of passports. I’m sure you’re not one of those fetishists of course..CarlottaVance said:
It's a heck of a lot closer than Burgundy - and pretty close to the original Saltire blue until the Scottish Parliament opted for a lighter shade:Theuniondivvie said:
Surely only an idiot would consider this to be the colour of the Scottish flag.CarlottaVance said:Telegraph:
"Pressed why he wanted to ditch passports that were blue, the dominant colour on the Scottish flag, Mr Yousaf claimed the switch to “burgundy red” could help a separate Scotland gain speedier EU membership."
He really is the idiot's idiot.
https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1684566490379591680?s=20
In admittedly a crowded field.....
But it will speed up Scotland's entry to the EU.....so that's OK.....0 -
A list is not a party. A list is a bag of things. Some of the things are people, some of the things are parties. In 1924 the National List included the National Fascist Party and other parties and people.Foxy said:
Though in 1924 (following the March on Rome) Mussolini took power and got 64% of the vote in the election, but the party was officially the "National List" were there any elections after that?viewcode said:
Some of you may remember @Ishmael_Z , who for two-thirds of the time could be a reasonably pleasant commentator who made interesting points. He asked one day if there had ever been an elected political party with "fascist" in the title. I damn nearly cried. PB beats on, borne back ceaselessly into the present...Foxy said:
Jeremy Corbyn!viewcode said:
Arthur Scargill. Tony Benn. Clement Attlee. Aneurin Bevan. (technically, Oswald Mosely?) Keir Hardie.TimS said:It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.
mutters to self
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
PB has no memory (punches wall....)
Lists are not well understood in the UK because they aren't used except in PR-ish elections and all the people on lists are members of the same party, so people think they are synonyms. In mid to central Europe they are more popular, especially EP elections.0 -
So the alternative was not to put Nigel Farage - who'd polled well in Euro elections - on Question Time, and thus fuel a narrative around the mainstream media suppressing debate on issues like this?Scott_xP said:
Yes and no.Casino_Royale said:A Brexit vote was inevitable
When the BBC put Nigel Fucking Farage on Question Time every week for 3 years, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
When Tory politicians ran scared of him instead of laughing at him, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
He tried to get elected 7 times, and 7 times the voters told him where to stick it.
If the 'establishment' had done the same, Brexit was not inevitable.
You can't just wish away views you don't like and would prefer to go away.3 -
Loads of journalists read this blog (secretly) for insights, and below the line too, and take our arguments into mainstream publication. Uncredited, of course.Richard_Tyndall said:
The Telegraph has been reading PB. This is exactly the question I raised yesterday evening.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)
I'm sort of OK with that. I don't have the time, skin or profile to do it myself and it's sort of flattering- I can't think of many (any?) other UK political blogs that have that much bearing on national debate.2 -
Will Farage stand as a Conservative? It was an unthinkable thing, but they’re desperate.0
-
m
Thanks. Good questions. On the degree of cultural change due to migration, the answer is truly difficult because the subject is so layered with racism and hypocrisy I hardly know where to start.Foxy said:
Considering immigration and the EU have been major debates at least since the Sixties ("If you want a n****r for a neighbour, vote Labour" and "Rivers of Blood" were both in the Sixties) and EU membership a major issue at GE's in Sixties, Seventies, Eighties and onwards, as well as 2 referendums; in what way do you think the people of Britain should have been consulted that wasn't taken?algarkirk said:
Farage has to be seen in the context of post war UK politics and policy. There are two long term and massive multi party policies which have changed the face of the UK. One is in relation to the EU and how we have allowed it to be structured, the other in relation to creating a UK with enormous global input in terms of population, altering its ethnic and cultural nature dramatically in a number of places.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
In neither policy has the voter been very clearly consulted as these things have gone along. Neither the past nor the present situation has the degree of voter consent, and losers consent, that would be desirable.
We end up with a Brexit vote where neither Remain nor Leave has either overwhelming support or losers' consent. We have to be in the EU because of its trading importance, but can't be in it on account of political union.
And we end up in a situation where the birthrate is tiny, but the population rises very rapidly.
This leading country, instead of producing so many top medics etc that we can help developing countries by staffing their hospitals scandalously ask them to staff ours.
Farage (who I do not support) merely reflects the failure of UK statecraft over 60 years. Don't blame him because the grown ups have done badly.
The EU is simpler. We had two referendums, the first way before anyone had any idea what the ultimate destination was, in the 1970s; the second way too late.
What was needed, because of the EU's constitutional implications was a series of referenda on the big calls - Lisbon treaty, Euro (whether it should happen at all); FoM as part of single market. We watched others do it.0 -
Yes, that's the biggest black mark against him in my view.TimS said:
The thing that distinguishes him from those others on the debit side is his simpering for Putin. It's fortunately a rare thing in Britain whereas the US seems to be throbbing with Vatniks.Casino_Royale said:
I don't see him as any more negative than figures like Alastair Campbell, Alex Salmond or Glenda Jackson. And I'd say he's better than Lloyd Russell-Moyle or John McDonnell. It really is in the eye of the beholder.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
His opposition to the Euro, the EU constitution and the Lisbon Treaty certainly had a positive effect in the noughties, as far as I'm concerned, as has his calling out of Wokery early on.
I think it's a good thing to have a political challenge to any fashionable consensus position across all mainstream political parties - it forces them to think and prevents bad policy.
That said, it should be noted he is not a supporter of his actions in Ukraine.0 -
It's insane. Even the logic of it confounds me.Taz said:
This is nothing new. I remember this happened to the surviving members of the Bridgwater Four, wrongly jailed for the murder of a paperboy in 1978.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)
They lost about 25% of their compensation.1 -
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!0 -
I didn't say that.Casino_Royale said:So the alternative was not to put Nigel Farage - who'd polled well in Euro elections - on Question Time, and thus fuel a narrative around the mainstream media suppressing debate on issues like this?
He should have been on at least as often as Nick Griffin0 -
The Australians are showing what a docile wicket this is. 80 without loss at stumps and 400-6 by close tomorrow.0
-
.
Order-Order might be close.Casino_Royale said:
Loads of journalists read this blog (secretly) for insights, and below the line too, and take our arguments into mainstream publication. Uncredited, of course.Richard_Tyndall said:
The Telegraph has been reading PB. This is exactly the question I raised yesterday evening.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)
I'm sort of OK with that. I don't have the time, skin or profile to do it myself and it's sort of flattering- I can't think of many (any?) other UK political blogs that have that much bearing on national debate.0 -
I think there is a latent belief that is out there that there was not really any real Brexit related divisions in the country, and it was manufactured by politicians and media. See the 'it was not listed as a top priority in surveys' kind of thing.Casino_Royale said:
So the alternative was not to put Nigel Farage - who'd polled well in Euro elections - on Question Time, and thus fuel a narrative around the mainstream media suppressing debate on issues like this?Scott_xP said:
Yes and no.Casino_Royale said:A Brexit vote was inevitable
When the BBC put Nigel Fucking Farage on Question Time every week for 3 years, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
When Tory politicians ran scared of him instead of laughing at him, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
He tried to get elected 7 times, and 7 times the voters told him where to stick it.
If the 'establishment' had done the same, Brexit was not inevitable.
You can't just wish away views you don't like and would prefer to go away.
Fact is it because a live political issue of at least significant minority urgency, which impacted the politicians, and when the public were asked they turned out and engaged on both sides in big numbers passionately.
I think it's pretty insulting to the public to in effect say they were somehow hypnotised into believing it was an issue.2 -
If a journalist is reading below the line comments on any website I would urge them to stop and spend their time more productively.2
-
These Johnny Come Latelies want us in the Palaeolithic, eh? Bloody modernisers.Richard_Tyndall said:
So Farage wants to send us back to the 1950s and Anabob wants to send us back to the Upper Palaeolithic.Northern_Al said:
Yes you would. It was a cashless society back then.Carnyx said:
Bit unfair. Neanderthals had enlarged ideas on diet. Evverything from mammoth to crab to nuts. You won't get that for 30p.Northern_Al said:
Private Eye now call him Lee Anderthal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, it's similar to Lee Anderson. There is a general media assumption that the salt of the earth white working class in England are very right wing. Obviously, you can only hold such an opinion if you don't get out much! More seriously, Farage and Anderson are on the Boomer/Gen X dividing line. The same generation as many senior media decision makers and newspaper columnists (and hard copy readers). They are a very recognisable type that probably existed much more widely 20 years ago. Their passing into serious minority status in the normal world has not been noticed because most senior media folk and newspaper columnists do not live in the normal world.Ghedebrav said:
And yet there's nothing behind the curtain. It is bizarre.SouthamObserver said:Farage is a one man shorting machine. He can clearly get massive media coverage, generate action from the current UK government and so move markets. If he targets a publicly-quoted business, then that business has a serious problem. It’s like shareholder activism, but without the shares. That is serious power.
I wonder how much of this is our generally posh media thinking (wrongly) that Nige is a voice of 'the working clahs' with their awful flags and their chips and whatnot and so giving him a constant platform that vastly outweighs his actual political achievements is an easy shortcut to giving a voice to that group?
They are in absolute thrall to the guy, and I just don't get it.
Mildly amusing and quite apt, I thought.
The mid Devonian is a Proper Period. Pshaw!1 -
Nigel Fucking Farage asked voters directly 7 times if they cared, and 7 times they told him they did not.kle4 said:Fact is it because a live political issue of at least significant minority urgency, which impacted the politicians, and when the public were asked they turned out and engaged on both sides in big numbers passionately.
I think it's pretty insulting to the public to in effect say they were somehow hypnotised into believing it was an issue.
If the BBC Question Time editors had not forced it down our throats every fucking week I don't think there would have been riots...0 -
I feel like you could either be right or happy with this commentBenpointer said:The Australians are showing what a docile wicket this is. 80 without loss at stumps and 400-6 by close tomorrow.
0 -
It is disappointing that you have such little faith in the UK. If we'd stayed the nasty EU would have bullied us and made us do horrible things wah wah.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep that is a good metaphore for where we would have been had we stayed in the EU.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being on the fence was better than lying face down in the ditch.williamglenn said:
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
I have great confidence that if the UK had stayed in the EU we would have been at the centre of decision-making and maintained our strong standing in the organisation.0 -
Pre-Cambrian is all!Malmesbury said:
These Johnny Come Latelies want us in the Palaeolithic, eh? Bloody modernisers.Richard_Tyndall said:
So Farage wants to send us back to the 1950s and Anabob wants to send us back to the Upper Palaeolithic.Northern_Al said:
Yes you would. It was a cashless society back then.Carnyx said:
Bit unfair. Neanderthals had enlarged ideas on diet. Evverything from mammoth to crab to nuts. You won't get that for 30p.Northern_Al said:
Private Eye now call him Lee Anderthal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, it's similar to Lee Anderson. There is a general media assumption that the salt of the earth white working class in England are very right wing. Obviously, you can only hold such an opinion if you don't get out much! More seriously, Farage and Anderson are on the Boomer/Gen X dividing line. The same generation as many senior media decision makers and newspaper columnists (and hard copy readers). They are a very recognisable type that probably existed much more widely 20 years ago. Their passing into serious minority status in the normal world has not been noticed because most senior media folk and newspaper columnists do not live in the normal world.Ghedebrav said:
And yet there's nothing behind the curtain. It is bizarre.SouthamObserver said:Farage is a one man shorting machine. He can clearly get massive media coverage, generate action from the current UK government and so move markets. If he targets a publicly-quoted business, then that business has a serious problem. It’s like shareholder activism, but without the shares. That is serious power.
I wonder how much of this is our generally posh media thinking (wrongly) that Nige is a voice of 'the working clahs' with their awful flags and their chips and whatnot and so giving him a constant platform that vastly outweighs his actual political achievements is an easy shortcut to giving a voice to that group?
They are in absolute thrall to the guy, and I just don't get it.
Mildly amusing and quite apt, I thought.
The mid Devonian is a Proper Period. Pshaw!0 -
He couldn't win in a FPTP constituency election with an outider party and that means the issue which got over 50% of the vote in a referendum was not something people cared about?Scott_xP said:
Nigel Fucking Farage asked voters directly 7 times if they cared, and 7 times they told him they did not.kle4 said:Fact is it because a live political issue of at least significant minority urgency, which impacted the politicians, and when the public were asked they turned out and engaged on both sides in big numbers passionately.
I think it's pretty insulting to the public to in effect say they were somehow hypnotised into believing it was an issue.
If the BBC Question Time editors had not forced it down our throats every fucking week I don't think there would have been riots...
I think the argument is nonsense, personally. The issue was bigger than him, his failure to become an MP quite obviously didn't prevent it being of significance for enough people to keep it going, and to give their view when asked.
I see the argument as an attempt to sidestep blaming the public for their choice by saying they should never have been given a choice. People like me voted for Brexit, it's our fault it's a shit show, not the BBC for putting Farage on QT occasionally.0 -
I can see hills. Carpathian hills0
-
I’m quite sure we would have continued the “if we sacrifice enough, the French and Germans will love us” policyTOPPING said:
It is disappointing that you have such little faith in the UK. If we'd stayed the nasty EU would have bullied us and made us do horrible things wah wah.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep that is a good metaphore for where we would have been had we stayed in the EU.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being on the fence was better than lying face down in the ditch.williamglenn said:
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
I have great confidence that if the UK had stayed in the EU we would have been at the centre of decision-making and maintained our strong standing in the organisation.
See the farce of Beale and Sombrero Island
0 -
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!0 -
Another one talking down the UK. Have a bit more confidence in your country.Malmesbury said:
I’m quite sure we would have continued the “if we sacrifice enough, the French and Germans will love us” policyTOPPING said:
It is disappointing that you have such little faith in the UK. If we'd stayed the nasty EU would have bullied us and made us do horrible things wah wah.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep that is a good metaphore for where we would have been had we stayed in the EU.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being on the fence was better than lying face down in the ditch.williamglenn said:
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
I have great confidence that if the UK had stayed in the EU we would have been at the centre of decision-making and maintained our strong standing in the organisation.
See the farce of Beale and Sombrero Island1 -
Guido lacks a top travel writer, and tilted to the right some years back.Foss said:.
Order-Order might be close.Casino_Royale said:
Loads of journalists read this blog (secretly) for insights, and below the line too, and take our arguments into mainstream publication. Uncredited, of course.Richard_Tyndall said:
The Telegraph has been reading PB. This is exactly the question I raised yesterday evening.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)
I'm sort of OK with that. I don't have the time, skin or profile to do it myself and it's sort of flattering- I can't think of many (any?) other UK political blogs that have that much bearing on national debate.0 -
Yes you need that. That's your 'edge'. Available to the left in some places but not so much here.TimS said:
And notably many of the most prominent populist leftwingers have had a national and identitarian angle to their ideology. Often anti-US/West (Chavez and Maduro, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Kim Il Sung) or separatists / anti-colonial like the Basques and Catalans in the civil war, arguably Sinn Fein, or supporting the rights of a repressed ethnic group like Mandela or Mugabe.kinabalu said:
The populist left doesn't seem as potent (electorally) as the populist right. I think probably the main reason for this is it majors on economic matters ('soak the rich' etc) rather than pushing buttons around 'nation' and 'identity' and 'patriotism'. I personally find this stuff highly objectionable but it undeniably has wide appeal. Eg it's a big part of what drove Brexit.TimS said:
It's a very apt description that he is good at shifting elite opinion. Trump and Johnson had some of the same strengths.Cicero said:
The "elite's" idea of a man in touch with the proles, rather than the twatmeister he actually is?Stuartinromford said:
Some poll wrangling on the subject:Northern_Al said:
Private Eye now call him Lee Anderthal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, it's similar to Lee Anderson. There is a general media assumption that the salt of the earth white working class in England are very right wing. Obviously, you can only hold such an opinion if you don't get out much! More seriously, Farage and Anderson are on the Boomer/Gen X dividing line. The same generation as many senior media decision makers and newspaper columnists (and hard copy readers). They are a very recognisable type that probably existed much more widely 20 years ago. Their passing into serious minority status in the normal world has not been noticed because most senior media folk and newspaper columnists do not live in the normal world.Ghedebrav said:
And yet there's nothing behind the curtain. It is bizarre.SouthamObserver said:Farage is a one man shorting machine. He can clearly get massive media coverage, generate action from the current UK government and so move markets. If he targets a publicly-quoted business, then that business has a serious problem. It’s like shareholder activism, but without the shares. That is serious power.
I wonder how much of this is our generally posh media thinking (wrongly) that Nige is a voice of 'the working clahs' with their awful flags and their chips and whatnot and so giving him a constant platform that vastly outweighs his actual political achievements is an easy shortcut to giving a voice to that group?
They are in absolute thrall to the guy, and I just don't get it.
Mildly amusing and quite apt, I thought.
Farage's appeal to 'the ordinary public' has always been overstated. There is no doubt he is a good politician and that his plain speaking appeals to some. But I think what is often missed is that his strength lies in shifting *elite*, rather than popular opinion.
https://twitter.com/LukeTryl/status/1684503488477163522
Has anyone on the populist left had the same effect, striking fear into more mainstream politicians? Nobody obvious springs to mind.0 -
Having seen this in action, the landlords need to be responsible for the booze they sell. It is their job.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!
In the case I mentioned, the landlord was trying to argue that a woman being assaulted a dozen metres from his pub by alcohol fuelled people was not his responsibility. The police evidence included the fact that the assailants possessed plastic, branded cups from the pub…
In the end, the brewery kicked him out and replaced him with a landlord who keeps “an orderly pub”.0 -
That's a pit above and below the line. Esp below.Foss said:.
Order-Order might be close.Casino_Royale said:
Loads of journalists read this blog (secretly) for insights, and below the line too, and take our arguments into mainstream publication. Uncredited, of course.Richard_Tyndall said:
The Telegraph has been reading PB. This is exactly the question I raised yesterday evening.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)
I'm sort of OK with that. I don't have the time, skin or profile to do it myself and it's sort of flattering- I can't think of many (any?) other UK political blogs that have that much bearing on national debate.0 -
Is the distinction now, that the government are cutting the duty on beer sold in pubs as opposed to off-licences. Which is why they don’t want pubs making off-sales.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!1 -
So if every alcohol sales outlet is responsible for the behviour resulting from those who consume it we're going to need a lot of new prisons.Malmesbury said:
Having seen this in action, the landlords need to be responsible for the booze they sell. It is their job.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!
In the case I mentioned, the landlord was trying to argue that a woman being assaulted a dozen metres from his pub by alcohol fuelled people was not his responsibility. The police evidence included the fact that the assailants possessed plastic, branded cups from the pub…
In the end, the brewery kicked him out and replaced him with a landlord who keeps “an orderly pub”.
The guy was right, it wasn't his fault, it was the fault of the people who assaulted the woman.0 -
I take it you are claiming Warner.Benpointer said:The Australians are showing what a docile wicket this is. 80 without loss at stumps and 400-6 by close tomorrow.
1 -
We had so much influence that when blair gave up a big chunk of our rebate for the promise of CAP reform that the promise was honoured.TOPPING said:
Another one talking down the UK. Have a bit more confidence in your country.Malmesbury said:
I’m quite sure we would have continued the “if we sacrifice enough, the French and Germans will love us” policyTOPPING said:
It is disappointing that you have such little faith in the UK. If we'd stayed the nasty EU would have bullied us and made us do horrible things wah wah.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep that is a good metaphore for where we would have been had we stayed in the EU.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being on the fence was better than lying face down in the ditch.williamglenn said:
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
I have great confidence that if the UK had stayed in the EU we would have been at the centre of decision-making and maintained our strong standing in the organisation.
See the farce of Beale and Sombrero Island1 -
Nope. I’m talking the country UP.TOPPING said:
Another one talking down the UK. Have a bit more confidence in your country.Malmesbury said:
I’m quite sure we would have continued the “if we sacrifice enough, the French and Germans will love us” policyTOPPING said:
It is disappointing that you have such little faith in the UK. If we'd stayed the nasty EU would have bullied us and made us do horrible things wah wah.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep that is a good metaphore for where we would have been had we stayed in the EU.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Being on the fence was better than lying face down in the ditch.williamglenn said:
Arguably progressive detachement from the European federalist project was the British consensus position anyway from the moment we shunned the Euro. Farage just forced us off the fence.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He identifies issues that other politicians don't want to talk about because they know there are no easy solutions and that the public don't want to face up to the difficult trade-offs. And then he offers simplistic solutions - or more often is content simply to lob in grenades from the sidelines. If we had skillful mainstream politicians they could help to lead public opinion towards genuine solutions and fruitful compromises but we don't, so he cuts through.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree with him on much but on many things but he really isn't - he's filling a vacuum that no-one else dare enter, and that's why he gets traction.OnlyLivingBoy said:
It shouldn't befuddle them. Farage is really the only highly skilled politician that we have in this country. Our tragedy is that he is fundamentally wrong about everything.Casino_Royale said:It's quite funny watching the deeply-confused Commentariat desperately trying to comprehend how Farage is still on the scene at all and has befuddled them all - yet again.
It's much easier to dial-up the insults or accuse his admirers of false consciousness, that engage with that, and sometimes both, so lo and behold that's what we're seeing.
To stop him getting traction you should ask why mainstream politicians can't engage with the issues he raises and come up with better solutions, because they seem to prefer to wrinkling up their noses, clothes-pegging themselves and condemning him and his supporters.
So he keeps coming back and disorientating them time after time after time. And they never learn.
But he is a fundamentally negative figure. He enjoys extremely negative net approvals because most voters don't like him. And his signature policy - Brexit - the one where he got mainstream politicians to deliver what he wanted, is now derided and growing more unpopular by the day, widely seen by voters as a historic fuck-up.
He is a reminder that genuinely talented populist politicians are extremely dangerous, especially when mainstream politicians are so witless and incompetent.
I have great confidence that if the UK had stayed in the EU we would have been at the centre of decision-making and maintained our strong standing in the organisation.
See the farce of Beale and Sombrero Island
French diplomat - “Can’t you stop the nasty American who might compete with Ariane?”
Malmesbury - “Well maybe. First off you need the local government - you’ll need a suitcase of *your* cash. Plus there is our fee for the introduction….I know - French military can buy Starstreak. Top notch weapon. As soon as you publicly announce the buy, I’ll have the local chaps round for a nice lunch.”
0 -
You could try but I would go to the local Spar. Grated carrot and mineral water at the spa.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!
1 -
The car racing at Spa is of a better quality, than the cars racing outside your local Spar.algarkirk said:
You could try but I would go to the local Spar. Grated carrot and mineral water at the spa.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!1 -
Strangely, within a week of the new landlord coming in, the crowds of drunk wankers vanished. He refused to serve them.TOPPING said:
So if every alcohol sales outlet is responsible for the behviour resulting from those who consume it we're going to need a lot of new prisons.Malmesbury said:
Having seen this in action, the landlords need to be responsible for the booze they sell. It is their job.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!
In the case I mentioned, the landlord was trying to argue that a woman being assaulted a dozen metres from his pub by alcohol fuelled people was not his responsibility. The police evidence included the fact that the assailants possessed plastic, branded cups from the pub…
In the end, the brewery kicked him out and replaced him with a landlord who keeps “an orderly pub”.
The guy was right, it wasn't his fault, it was the fault of the people who assaulted the woman.
The pub actually got more business from the neighbourhood not being a Fight Club1 -
I am a Coutts customer*, and I think they have behaved appallingly. If they had downgraded him to a regular NatWest card, on the basis that he's no longer meeting the eligibility requirements, that would be one thing.Leon said:
Yes I doubt that many people will switch accounts from Coutts if they already have one. It’s a hassle as you say. But who knowsSouthamObserver said:
I'd be surprised if many fantastically rich people use Coutts in the first place. But those who do will already have had their personal account managers on the phone talking through any issues they may have and soothing any concerns. It's a real pain switching these kinds of accounts - and it can cost a fair amount of money to do it. But you are right, discretion really matters. If people are genuinely concerned their names are going to get into the papers, they'll be off like a shot.Leon said:The idea “this will all turn out well for Coutts” is refreshingly original. I can imagine there must be loads of billionaires applying for accounts right now, in the hope they can be morally audited by 19 year olds, and get their entire social media histories combed over, to see if they ever retweeted anything possibly transphobic, and if they fail, this will all be leaked to the BBC
Really rich people LOVE that kind of attention
What it will do is deter anyone from OPENING an account there. Why take the risk?
It is potentially a True Ratner Moment. A few monumentally stupid, indiscreet remarks, said to the wrong audience, have terminally damaged an entire business. Insanely dumb
Also what kind of arrogant fuckwit does this in the first place? Isn’t Alison rose meant to be some experienced person? A safe pair of hands? 30 years with the firm?
I wonder if she was really drunk and trying to impress a BBC journo she fancied. Didn’t this happen at some banquet?
But to (a) kick him out, and (b) say the stupid things they did is quite another.
I'm planning to return to the UK once I've sold my current business, so would appreciate a proper UK bank, that doesn't mind having a UK tax reesident customer. If Charles was still on the site, I'd ask if Hoare's would have me.
* Not by choice: RBS closed the bank (Adam & Co) that I was a customer of, and transferred me to Coutts.2 -
iirc there was much concern about increased alcoholism when supermarkets became off-licences.Sandpit said:
The car racing at Spa is of a better quality, than the cars racing outside your local Spar.algarkirk said:
You could try but I would go to the local Spar. Grated carrot and mineral water at the spa.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!0 -
The whole way the bank - from the Board down - responded suggests a lack of joined up thinking / strategy followed by panic. This does not surprise me. People can be very effective CEOs but fall to pieces in a crisis and make elementary and stupid mistakes.Peter_the_Punter said:
Agreed, Big G.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningPeter_the_Punter said:Yes, good piece from Mike and it echoes my own view that this could be a very good election for the LDs.
Their biggest stumbling block is that they have to overcome some seriously large majorities to win a lot of seats from the Conservatives, but as the bar illustrates, they are capable of doing this.
I am going to provisionally estimate that yhey will emerge from the GE with at least 30 seats. They may even displace the SNP as the third largest Party.
As Generals go, Davey is almost as lucky as Starmer.
Fair comment and as things stand entirely possible
On the Farage banking affair there are times, when no matter how you dislike someone's political views, when a stand has to be made against an injustice
Yesterday, Nick Thomas Symonds was terrible on Sky attempting to defend Alison Rose and even worse, Rachel Reeves penned a piece (before Rose resigned) accusing Farage and the media of 'bullying' Rose which was just crass in the extreme
Starmer eventually endorsed her resignation, but only after seeing the way the wind was blowing
This was not a political issue, but the difference between trust and confidentiality, and no doubt if it had been anyone other than Farage, these labour politicians would have had a different response
And I would say the same thing if it had been Corbyn who had been subject to this injustice
Awkward as it is to find oneself supporting Farage, it has to be said that he has as much right to privacy as the rest of us.
What possessed this woman to blurt out his private details to a journalist is beyond me.2 -
You dorealise that your continued use of the f word in this context shows just how effectively Farage has blown your mind to smithereens.Scott_xP said:
Nigel Fucking Farage asked voters directly 7 times if they cared, and 7 times they told him they did not.kle4 said:Fact is it because a live political issue of at least significant minority urgency, which impacted the politicians, and when the public were asked they turned out and engaged on both sides in big numbers passionately.
I think it's pretty insulting to the public to in effect say they were somehow hypnotised into believing it was an issue.
If the BBC Question Time editors had not forced it down our throats every fucking week I don't think there would have been riots...1 -
Guido also lacks the indiscriminate randomness of opinion and subject matter to be found elsewhere, including here. "Let me tell you all about my forthcoming book on medieval Mongolian fireplaces and my recent visit to the new coffee machine at South Greenford station illustrated by 20 large photos...."DecrepiterJohnL said:
Guido lacks a top travel writer, and tilted to the right some years back.Foss said:.
Order-Order might be close.Casino_Royale said:
Loads of journalists read this blog (secretly) for insights, and below the line too, and take our arguments into mainstream publication. Uncredited, of course.Richard_Tyndall said:
The Telegraph has been reading PB. This is exactly the question I raised yesterday evening.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)
I'm sort of OK with that. I don't have the time, skin or profile to do it myself and it's sort of flattering- I can't think of many (any?) other UK political blogs that have that much bearing on national debate.
2 -
In Cumberland you get a better quality of tractor racing outside Spar than you do at Spa. (I am not making this up).Sandpit said:
The car racing at Spa is of a better quality, than the cars racing outside your local Spar.algarkirk said:
You could try but I would go to the local Spar. Grated carrot and mineral water at the spa.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!1 -
When was Paul Staines last relevant? 2009? Before journos discovered Twitter? When attacking the government, and calling the PM "bonkers", no longer suited the paymasters under a Tory government?1
-
South Greenford doesn't have a coffee machine!algarkirk said:
Guido also lacks the indiscriminate randomness of opinion and subject matter to be found elsewhere, including here. "Let me tell you all about my forthcoming book on medieval Mongolian fireplaces and my recent visit to the new coffee machine at South Greenford station illustrated by 20 large photos...."DecrepiterJohnL said:
Guido lacks a top travel writer, and tilted to the right some years back.Foss said:.
Order-Order might be close.Casino_Royale said:
Loads of journalists read this blog (secretly) for insights, and below the line too, and take our arguments into mainstream publication. Uncredited, of course.Richard_Tyndall said:
The Telegraph has been reading PB. This is exactly the question I raised yesterday evening.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)
I'm sort of OK with that. I don't have the time, skin or profile to do it myself and it's sort of flattering- I can't think of many (any?) other UK political blogs that have that much bearing on national debate.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search="South+Greenford"+Sunil060902&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=image2 -
It’s to try and make it more attractive to drink beer in the sociable and managed environment of a pub than drinking cheap supermarket booze at home or in the park. A downside is that beer festivals cannot sell carry outs and at the end of the festival, staff - usually volunteers - will have to pour unsold beer down the drain instead of taking it home.Sandpit said:
Is the distinction now, that the government are cutting the duty on beer sold in pubs as opposed to off-licences. Which is why they don’t want pubs making off-sales.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!
0 -
OK Jeez it's Spar not Spa. I get it. Still doesn't make people responsible for the behaviour of the people they sell alcohol to.
Hmmph.0 -
The local authorities and magistrates don’t see it that way.TOPPING said:
So if every alcohol sales outlet is responsible for the behviour resulting from those who consume it we're going to need a lot of new prisons.Malmesbury said:
Having seen this in action, the landlords need to be responsible for the booze they sell. It is their job.TOPPING said:
Surely they can go to their local Spa and buy a six-pack to take away. I don't get the distinction.Malmesbury said:
There have been significant problems with pubs selling takeaway beer, that end up with drunk teenagers all over the place, wandering around and smashing stuff up.TOPPING said:Bizarre decision by the govt to end off sales of alcohol by pubs. They will now have to apply to the council for a licence to sell alcohol for people to take away.
Covid - the gift that keeps giving to idiotic government policy.
Essentially, selling it over the wall can end up with a total loss of control.
One pub on the river, near me, was nearly shut down over this stuff. A stupid landlord tried the “nothing to do with me line” - with the licensing committee!
In the case I mentioned, the landlord was trying to argue that a woman being assaulted a dozen metres from his pub by alcohol fuelled people was not his responsibility. The police evidence included the fact that the assailants possessed plastic, branded cups from the pub…
In the end, the brewery kicked him out and replaced him with a landlord who keeps “an orderly pub”.
The guy was right, it wasn't his fault, it was the fault of the people who assaulted the woman.
There have been a lot of licences revoked over the years, as a result of antisocial behaviour originating from people who had been drinking irresponsibly at particular pubs.
That’s why the brewery will replace the manager if things start to get out of hand, because they don’t want things to escalate to the point where it threatens their licence.1 -
Picking Anderson for this test is looking like a serious mistake. His extremely accurate line and length would frustrate an English equivalent team determined to score but the Aussies seem content to wait him out. Without that aggressive intent he looks harmless and ineffective.1
-
Isn't Coutts a refuge for well-connected, chinless wonders?Cyclefree said:
The whole way the bank - from the Board down - responded suggests a lack of joined up thinking / strategy followed by panic. This does not surprise me. People can be very effective CEOs but fall to pieces in a crisis and make elementary and stupid mistakes.Peter_the_Punter said:
Agreed, Big G.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningPeter_the_Punter said:Yes, good piece from Mike and it echoes my own view that this could be a very good election for the LDs.
Their biggest stumbling block is that they have to overcome some seriously large majorities to win a lot of seats from the Conservatives, but as the bar illustrates, they are capable of doing this.
I am going to provisionally estimate that yhey will emerge from the GE with at least 30 seats. They may even displace the SNP as the third largest Party.
As Generals go, Davey is almost as lucky as Starmer.
Fair comment and as things stand entirely possible
On the Farage banking affair there are times, when no matter how you dislike someone's political views, when a stand has to be made against an injustice
Yesterday, Nick Thomas Symonds was terrible on Sky attempting to defend Alison Rose and even worse, Rachel Reeves penned a piece (before Rose resigned) accusing Farage and the media of 'bullying' Rose which was just crass in the extreme
Starmer eventually endorsed her resignation, but only after seeing the way the wind was blowing
This was not a political issue, but the difference between trust and confidentiality, and no doubt if it had been anyone other than Farage, these labour politicians would have had a different response
And I would say the same thing if it had been Corbyn who had been subject to this injustice
Awkward as it is to find oneself supporting Farage, it has to be said that he has as much right to privacy as the rest of us.
What possessed this woman to blurt out his private details to a journalist is beyond me.
That is, lumpen-aristocrats who, re: Farage, decided to black-ball a leading representative of the lumpen-bourgeoisie.0 -
Don't know if this has already been mentioned but some researchers have claimed that they have created a room temperature super conductor known as LK-99.
Massive if true especially since it seemingly uses normal materials and straight forward methods to create it. Obviously the science community seems very reticent to announce it untill it's been replicated as they've fallen for elaborate hoaxes before.
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Sunil_Prasannan said:
South Greenford doesn't have a coffee machine!algarkirk said:
Guido also lacks the indiscriminate randomness of opinion and subject matter to be found elsewhere, including here. "Let me tell you all about my forthcoming book on medieval Mongolian fireplaces and my recent visit to the new coffee machine at South Greenford station illustrated by 20 large photos...."DecrepiterJohnL said:
Guido lacks a top travel writer, and tilted to the right some years back.Foss said:.
Order-Order might be close.Casino_Royale said:
Loads of journalists read this blog (secretly) for insights, and below the line too, and take our arguments into mainstream publication. Uncredited, of course.Richard_Tyndall said:
The Telegraph has been reading PB. This is exactly the question I raised yesterday evening.DecrepiterJohnL said:Man wrongly jailed for rape may have to pay for prison ‘board and lodgings’
Andrew Malkinson says he will be liable to pay back money to prison service if he wins compensation
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/27/innocent-andrew-malkinson-wrongful-conviction-compensation/ (£££)
I'm sort of OK with that. I don't have the time, skin or profile to do it myself and it's sort of flattering- I can't think of many (any?) other UK political blogs that have that much bearing on national debate.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search="South+Greenford"+Sunil060902&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=image
Yes. I remember South Greenford—
The name, because one afternoon
Of heat the express-train drew up there
Unwontedly. It was late June.
The steam hissed. Someone cleared his throat.
No one left and no one came
On the bare platform. What I saw
Was South Greenford—only the name,
No coffee machine but grass,
And meadowsweet, and haycocks dry,
No whit less still and lonely fair
Than the high cloudlets in the sky.
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Seattle Times ($) - The purr-fect rescue: Ferry crew saves kitten from waterFerry staff whiskered a kitten out of the water near Whidbey Island on Wednesday morning after a game of cat and mouse.
Clinton Ferry Terminal staff members saw a kitten in a wingwall, a landing aid for vessels, right after the ferry Tokitae departed, Washington State Ferries spokesperson Dana Warr said. A Kitsap crew member donned a life jacket and climbed out to look for it, but the kitten had fallen into the water.
The crew launched a rescue boat and found the kitten clinging to one of his nine lives on an offshore piling. They retrieved him safely.
“It looks like the cat was pretty happy; they cradled him in the rescue boat,” Warr said.
Terminal staff made a makeshift kennel for the kitten before taking him to the South Whidbey Animal Clinic, where staff members began calling him Bosun — a nautical title for the highest ranking member of a ship’s crew.
The kitten was meow-mentarily too cold and wet for a thermometer to read his temperature when he first came in, said lead veterinary technician Sabra Whitlock. Bosun began feline good after staffers gave him a bath and a technician tucked him into their scrub top until he was warm enough to go into a kennel.
Whitlock said the kitten is probably three or four months old, and is gray with a white patch on his belly. The cat did not have a microchip.
One thing is for sure: It will paw-sitively not take long for Bosun to find his fur-ever home.
“He’s a little grumpy kitty now that he’s feeling better,” Whitlock said. “One of the employees here would like to adopt if needed, and we’ve had a couple of calls from the ferry workers who are interested in adopting him if he doesn’t find a home.”
https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/07262023_Bosun-Clinton_Ferry_Terminal_Cat_155233.jpg?d=1152x1536
SSI - I've taken this ferry a time or two, connects Whidbey Island with mainland, a short 20-min journey.0 -
A
Quitercs1000 said:
I am a Coutts customer*, and I think they have behaved appallingly. If they had downgraded him to a regular NatWest card, on the basis that he's no longer meeting the eligibility requirements, that would be one thing.Leon said:
Yes I doubt that many people will switch accounts from Coutts if they already have one. It’s a hassle as you say. But who knowsSouthamObserver said:
I'd be surprised if many fantastically rich people use Coutts in the first place. But those who do will already have had their personal account managers on the phone talking through any issues they may have and soothing any concerns. It's a real pain switching these kinds of accounts - and it can cost a fair amount of money to do it. But you are right, discretion really matters. If people are genuinely concerned their names are going to get into the papers, they'll be off like a shot.Leon said:The idea “this will all turn out well for Coutts” is refreshingly original. I can imagine there must be loads of billionaires applying for accounts right now, in the hope they can be morally audited by 19 year olds, and get their entire social media histories combed over, to see if they ever retweeted anything possibly transphobic, and if they fail, this will all be leaked to the BBC
Really rich people LOVE that kind of attention
What it will do is deter anyone from OPENING an account there. Why take the risk?
It is potentially a True Ratner Moment. A few monumentally stupid, indiscreet remarks, said to the wrong audience, have terminally damaged an entire business. Insanely dumb
Also what kind of arrogant fuckwit does this in the first place? Isn’t Alison rose meant to be some experienced person? A safe pair of hands? 30 years with the firm?
I wonder if she was really drunk and trying to impress a BBC journo she fancied. Didn’t this happen at some banquet?
But to (a) kick him out, and (b) say the stupid things they did is quite another.
I'm planning to return to the UK once I've sold my current business, so would appreciate a proper UK bank, that doesn't mind having a UK tax reesident customer. If Charles was still on the site, I'd ask if Hoare's would have me.
* Not by choice: RBS closed the bank (Adam & Co) that I was a customer of, and transferred me to Coutts.
The way it should have been handled -
{Farage ushered into mahogany lined office, loudest sound - the sledgehammer tick of grandfather clock. The portrait of the founder of the bank glowers down from above the fireplace}
Private banker {Three piece suit from Turnbull & Asser, watch chain with a Winchester miniature coat of arms} - “Port? No? You’re missing a treat…. I’m sorry to say that we are having to let you go, Mr Farage. Some of the chaps are not sure that you are a good fit with the bank. Sadly, that’s a final decision. I’ve arranged for a transfer of your affairs to our partners” {produces leather folio with the banks coat of arms on it} “it’s all here”
Some little time later, door closes, ticking of the clock..
At a dinner later that day
BBC journalist - “Whats this about Farage?”
CEO - “Farage - you mean the UKIP chap? No, I’ve no idea if he’s even with our bank. Not my job to know, either. Got good chaps for that. Port?”2 -
No, Leave wasn't defined, so it could mean whatever people wanted it to - and some of those were contradictory. Cameron should have got the Leave campaigns to define what it meant before the referendum was called.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You know, it was the remain camp who lost the vote by failing to make the case which should have been far easierScott_xP said:
Yes and no.Casino_Royale said:A Brexit vote was inevitable
When the BBC put Nigel Fucking Farage on Question Time every week for 3 years, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
When Tory politicians ran scared of him instead of laughing at him, perhaps, but they didn't need to do that.
He tried to get elected 7 times, and 7 times the voters told him where to stick it.
If the 'establishment' had done the same, Brexit was not inevitable.
Yes Farage was a forceful campaigner, but the establishment took the electorate for granted hence why vote leave won0 -
I’ve just been to the supermarket where I used to work as a student, stacking shelves. I wanted some wraps. I like a freshly made wrap for my dinner.
No wraps. A vast expanse of empty shelving. And when you pay attention, when you properly look, there are huge gaps everywhere that they just fill up with shit loads of one product.
We’ve quickly become conditioned to having a massively reduced choice of food, with many items simply out of stock, time after time. Vastly reduced choice.
And let’s not get started on the prices.
Still, sovereignty, eh?0
This discussion has been closed.