Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Elitist institution produces elitists shocker. It's just a finishing school for chancers and sociopaths. We'd be better off without it.
Yea, great idea, let us just dumb down everything. The human eco-system needs elites, being chippy about Eton or Harrow doesn't change that. Why do you think so many working class and middle class parents boast about their children "going into medicine"? It is because being a doctor is seen as being in the elite. Whether medicine is an elite, or even whether it should be is by the by. It is seen as such.
We need elites. Railing against that reality is just socialist chippy bollox.
That depends which kinds of elite, I would say. British TV has been dumbed down, partly, and for instance, because of what could be described as anti-elitist arguments during the 1990's, from what I also suppose one could describe as 'chippy populists' like Rupert Murdoch, and Tory politicians from a similar background supporting him.
On the other hand, particularly since the 1980's, Eton has seemed to me to be more often promoting, like a few other schools, much more often an elitist ethos of wealth, power and privilege, than service, culture or intellect, as in the letter from the sadly regretful Etonian teacher below, and as was quoted in the Times.
It is a good post, and I think you have nailed it to some extent. Basically people like the elites that they like or approve of, and loathe those that they don't. Hence it is possible for left leaning people to be massively supine and obsequious to someone because they are a doctor who works for the NHS, even if he (as many have) been educated at Eton, while railing against the terrible elitism of an individual who went to a minor public school who is a hedge fund manager or Tory politician.
It is all best described as irrational hypocrisy.
OTOH, there are rather more training and ongoing quality control for the one career than the others.
Harold Shipman says hi
25 years ago, though. Would be even worse than our PBTories going on about Messrs Corbyn, Brown, etc.
Most obvious and perhaps hyperbolic example, but the idea that all NHS staff are of the highest quality and that the "QC" system is beyond reproach requires a level of naivety only held by those who believe that the NHS is "the envy of the world".
Had a recent encounter with the NHS via mother in law and it was ... not good.
I won't go into the gory details but I have it on good authority from external sources that the ward in question is known to have a poor culture.
The only time the nurses appeared to be doing any actual nursing was when a relief shift of Nigerians turned up at the weekend. The rest of the time they were going through the motions, whether appropriate to the patient or not.
Though they did find time to discuss at length the best source of Prosecco from behind the desk whilst failing to feed their inmates (not joking).
Would they be better if we paid them 20% more? I'm not sure they would.
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
Just been to the village petrol station. The pumps all have signs on them that state "Due to Internet issues CASH ONLY TODAY!" I had to nurse the van into Loughborough to get fuel as the nearest cashpoint machine was further away than the next fuel station! Bloody cashless society, my arse!
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Apropos of nothing, I see this is national men's week.
Disgusting - what about having a national women's week then?
What about those of us who are more, well, provincial men?
And when is the week for INTERNATIONAL Men, eh?
Not happy over here in Alexandria, Va
Every week is your week, lad.
Oh God. His album. Track 3. Oh God.
That is a look though.
It's a look if you want the crew-cut Ken and all his men to stomp out in roundhead style and rip your wig off (track 9)
I've just done a quick Google because I had no idea who this was or what you were on about. I'd never heard of Peter Wyngarde before. Apparently he was friends with Morrissey.
The album sounds worth looking out. A track called 'Peter Wyngarde commits rape' is an audacious choice for a single.
It sounds not unlike - though rather more salacious than - the excellent William Shatner album 'has-been'.
I agree and its one of the reasons why i think religion should stay out of politics . I am never impressed when the Lord Bishops speak on political issues or indeed non religious issues - His Grace , the Archbishop of Canterbury occasionally does this but the most ridiculous example was the Bishop of St Albans talking about the pest of grey squirells in his capacity as a member of the Lords - The bishops and all church leaders should be a conduit to bring people to God and Jesus from whatever political stances they have or indeed what they think of grey squirells
On the other hand if you have a strong religiously derived set of moral views and are in a position where you can speak on a political subject that intersects strongly with those moral views (not grey squirrels, but perhaps treatment of asylum seekers or similar) and have your voice carry some persuasive power, I think a lot of religions and moral codes would say you have an obligation to use the advantage of your position to try to persuade others to follow the more moral course of action.
So I'm an atheist, and I'm not sure I'd have bishops in the HoL, but I think they're entirely right to speak up on some "political" issues, whether they're in the HoL or merely opining from their pulpit. (I might agree or disagree on the individual opinions, of course.)
To me though religion isn't a moral thing (morals and society norms change over time but God does not for that would imply God is led by humans) but a spiritual thing. Bishops shoudl be there to bring people to God not to lecture on politics or even morals
Fair enough; there are loads of spiritual traditions that say religion isn't a moral thing. But for four fifths of the earth's surface the predominant tradition for centuries has been 'ethical monotheism'. That is, there is one God, and we are accountable to God. A sort of universal Ofsted/CQC/Supreme Court.
This, like all things, gets perverted, but for myself as a very liberal Christian I would rather both Hitler and I were accountable to that God (especially in its liberal Christian versions!) than any alternative. Like accountable to no-one; or accountable to the Daily Mail.
Struggling a bit to understand this: are you saying you find it comforting to believe that Hitler is being punished in an afterlife?
Not sure where the unclarity is. The answer to your question is No.
The whole point of universal accountability to the one God of ethical monotheism (an idea shared by Jews, Muslims and Christians) is that ultimate questions are reserved to God, not us. As a liberal Christian I leave the matter there.
Being humans the history of religion is littered with people playing God in this regard, especially those who condemn others but not themselves, and apply double standards. And not only religious people of course.
You said:
"I would rather both Hitler and I were accountable to that God (especially in its liberal Christian versions!) than any alternative"
1) why would you prefer it? I mean Hitler, I think, killed himself because he knew he had lost the war and was going to be captured - is he accountable to God because God is then judging (and punishing) him after his death? Or what do you mean?
2) is your preference for Hitler being accountable to God the reason why you believe it to be true?
a) I prefer it because it is less inadequate than all the alternatives. And what I mean is exactly what I said. I have no intention of second guessing God.
b) No
So, if I understand you, you are happy that Hitler is accountable to God, but you don't know what that means?
1) All of us being accountable to God is not some nutty obscurity. It is a mainstream belief of the largest religious traditions covering 80% of the world's land.
2) What it means is exactly what it says. Adolf and all of us are accountable to God, and this accountability is the most ultimate and final one there is.
3) I am not remotely going to suggest that it is for me to know how God deals finally with our accountability to him. That is playing God.
4) These are completely ordinary elements of what it is to hold a mainstream faith (this is not knowledge - see for example Kant's first critique passim) in one of the non fundamentalist traditions of ethical monotheism. Like the Church of England, Church of Scotland, Methodists, Roman Catholics, and other mainstream Christians, most members of Islam and most Jews.
I'm just curious as to how you believe it works, and what this accountability means. Your answer leaves me none the wiser, and it looks like you don't want to explain (telling me it covers 80% of the world's land doesn't help at all, nor does referring me to Kant).
I am not sure what would count as an explanation here. The traditional language is that God is the judge, but that doesn't help you or me very much. Or indeed how 'how it works' would apply to divine action.
I am content to leave the issue open; indeed I don't think I have a choice, without veering into fundamentalism or fideism of some sort.
OK. I am familiar with what I was told as a child, which was basically after you die if you've been good you go to heaven, and if you've been bad you go to hell (a place of eternal torment). It sounds like you don't believe that, though I'm not sure. I do know people who do believe exactly that. You think I should be familiar with your belief because it is shared by 80% of the world - well I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with it, and I don't for a second think that it is shared by 80% of the world, whatever it is!
Is this judgement by God something that we face after we die? Does it involve the possibility of being punished for how we lived?
Do you not think that "good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell" requires God to make a judgement about whether you're good or bad?
Yes, I'm just trying to figure out whether that is what Algakirk believes
I'd like to know God's criteria. I don't believe in it, but it might be prudent to be up to speed on the latest guidelines.
I'm totally fine with following any religion to save myself from eternal damnation. The thing that's stopping me is that I don't know the 'right' one to pick. Not much point being a close adherent of Catholicism only to find out that God is a Protestant (or a Jew, Muslim etc) and I get sent down anyway.
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
This reminds me of the excellent Einstein quote. The right response to God is thinking like a child in a giant library, with books up to the rafters, in a language we don't understand.
We can dimply apprehend that there's an underlying order, but we don't know what language it's written in, he said.
Elitist institution produces elitists shocker. It's just a finishing school for chancers and sociopaths. We'd be better off without it.
Yea, great idea, let us just dumb down everything. The human eco-system needs elites, being chippy about Eton or Harrow doesn't change that. Why do you think so many working class and middle class parents boast about their children "going into medicine"? It is because being a doctor is seen as being in the elite. Whether medicine is an elite, or even whether it should be is by the by. It is seen as such.
We need elites. Railing against that reality is just socialist chippy bollox.
That depends which kinds of elite, I would say. British TV has been dumbed down, partly, and for instance, because of what could be described as anti-elitist arguments during the 1990's, from what I also suppose one could describe as 'chippy populists' like Rupert Murdoch, and Tory politicians from a similar background supporting him.
On the other hand, particularly since the 1980's, Eton has seemed to me to be more often promoting, like a few other schools, much more often an elitist ethos of wealth, power and privilege, than service, culture or intellect, as in the letter from the sadly regretful Etonian teacher below, and as was quoted in the Times.
It is a good post, and I think you have nailed it to some extent. Basically people like the elites that they like or approve of, and loathe those that they don't. Hence it is possible for left leaning people to be massively supine and obsequious to someone because they are a doctor who works for the NHS, even if he (as many have) been educated at Eton, while railing against the terrible elitism of an individual who went to a minor public school who is a hedge fund manager or Tory politician.
It is all best described as irrational hypocrisy.
OTOH, there are rather more training and ongoing quality control for the one career than the others.
Harold Shipman says hi
25 years ago, though. Would be even worse than our PBTories going on about Messrs Corbyn, Brown, etc.
Most obvious and perhaps hyperbolic example, but the idea that all NHS staff are of the highest quality and that the "QC" system is beyond reproach requires a level of naivety only held by those who believe that the NHS is "the envy of the world".
Had a recent encounter with the NHS via mother in law and it was ... not good.
I won't go into the gory details but I have it on good authority from external sources that the ward in question is known to have a poor culture.
The only time the nurses appeared to be doing any actual nursing was when a relief shift of Nigerians turned up at the weekend. The rest of the time they were going through the motions, whether appropriate to the patient or not.
Though they did find time to discuss at length the best source of Prosecco from behind the desk whilst failing to feed their inmates (not joking).
Would they be better if we paid them 20% more? I'm not sure they would.
As someone whose wife and daughter are nurses, what you are describing is not uncommon. Unfortunately the Thursday night clap and NHS hero stuff has only exacebrated the situation.
The sentencing remarks in the abortion case. Not quite how it was presented earlier. Deception and lying are not viewed favourably by the courts. The sentence does seem a tad harsh.
From 9, "Indeed I consider it would have been better had the letter not been written at all" is rather pointed. Is the letter available ?
IANAL but it seems a rather chilling and inappropriate comment to me.
If the letter was not appropriate for the Judge to take into account, then the Judge should be more than qualified and capable of determining that my himself or herself. That is their role, it is not the role of the Royal College of Obstetricians etc to determine whether what they have to say is relevant or not.
I fail to see any circumstances where it would be "better" for those with a relevant interest or expertise to not express that interest or expertise.
To respond to those who've said something with "it would have been better if you'd just stayed quiet" seems to me to be entirely inappropriate.
The judge did indeed ignore the letter. His point was that it is not appropriate for people to lobby judges about sentencing, particularly when, as here, they were effectively asking the judge to ignore the law. Lobby parliament to change the law by all means. Write to the press. But don't lobby judges.
No he did not ignore the letter, he said it would be "better" had the letter not been written.
That's absurd and chilling and not at all reasonable in my eyes. We live in a free country, people who think they have standing should be free to send in letters as appropriate and the Judge should be free to ignore them, but he went further than ignoring it, he said it would be "better" had it not been written.
Its never "better" to silence people who have something to say.
And again I repeat my question from before, he's said that she is going to jail as she didn't plead guilty at magistrates court - but as far as I can tell she was not found guilty of that which she was charged with at magistrates court. So how is the fact she pled guilty later, to an offence she was never originally charged with, something to hold against her?
IANAL but the ruling and Judgment seems pompous and not at all reasonable.
If you prefer, he did not take the letter into account in sentencing. I simplified that to saying he ignored it. And he isn't in any respects silencing the letter writers. He makes it clear that, if they want the law changed (which is what they were asking the judge to do) they should lobby parliament.
I agree with the judge. We don't want people lobbying judges about sentencing. It would have been equally inappropriate for those wanting tighter abortion laws to lobby the judge arguing for a harsher sentence to act as a deterrent.
Regarding sentencing, she was not found not guilty of the original charge. That charge was dropped. She did not, in the magistrates' court, offer a plea of guilty to the alternative charge. Indeed, it wasn't until later that her barrister suggested the alternative charge. Under the Sentencing Guidelines, which the judge is required to follow, that means she gets a smaller reduction in sentence. Whether the Guidelines are right is a separate issue, but the Guidelines are clear that, as she didn't plead guilty to anything in the magistrates' court, she gets a smaller reduction. That isn't the judge being pompous or unreasonable. It is the judge doing what the law requires him to do.
You can only plead to what you're charged with. It's the prosecution's job to level those charges against you. Not yours to incriminate yourself.
Seems bonkers and against natural justice.
The principle is that she didn’t plead guilty before a crown court trial. She took the risk and lost. So she doesn’t get a discount.
But she wasn't found guilty of anything before the crown court.
How can she have "lost" if she is not guilty of anything the CPS had before the Magistrates?
The charges that were filed at the Magistrates stage were subsequently dropped. How is it then her responsibility to plead guilty at Magistrates to charges that were never filed at that stage?
The specifics of the charge don’t matter.
It is a discount for avoiding the cost and resource of a full trial
Apropos of nothing, I see this is national men's week.
Disgusting - what about having a national women's week then?
What about those of us who are more, well, provincial men?
And when is the week for INTERNATIONAL Men, eh?
Not happy over here in Alexandria, Va
Every week is your week, lad.
Oh God. His album. Track 3. Oh God.
That is a look though.
It's a look if you want the crew-cut Ken and all his men to stomp out in roundhead style and rip your wig off (track 9)
I've just done a quick Google because I had no idea who this was or what you were on about. I'd never heard of Peter Wyngarde before. Apparently he was friends with Morrissey.
The album sounds worth looking out. A track called 'Peter Wyngarde commits rape' is an audacious choice for a single.
It sounds not unlike - though rather more salacious than - the excellent William Shatner album 'has-been'.
It's an incredible album, with some really beautiful musical and lyrics. But it's also quite shocking. And sinister. And racist. And fiercely weird.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
Be involved in the deaths of two kids, get investigated
Doesn't sound quite so unfair now, does it?
The police vehicle wasn’t involved in the accident, and was quite some distance away at the time.
My understanding was that the suspects took a footpath between two roads, that the police van couldn’t follow them down, and were involved in a collision at the other end of the footpath where it met another road.
The problems in which case being the design of the footpath, and the availability of overpowered electric scooters which need to be licenced as motorbikes - and very little to do with the two police officers involved.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
From that, possibly you didn't follow the story at the time.
People who did will know that the boys died in a crash, and then South Wales Police (and the Commissioner) issued strong statements denying that they had been followed by the police. From CCTV evidence it became clear they had been followed.
If you have a brain and can bear to try to engage it rather than spouting sub-Daily-Mail drivel, perhaps you can think of a reason the officers who followed the boys might have been accused of gross misconduct.
Apropos of nothing, I see this is national men's week.
Disgusting - what about having a national women's week then?
What about those of us who are more, well, provincial men?
And when is the week for INTERNATIONAL Men, eh?
Not happy over here in Alexandria, Va
Every week is your week, lad.
Oh God. His album. Track 3. Oh God.
That is a look though.
It's a look if you want the crew-cut Ken and all his men to stomp out in roundhead style and rip your wig off (track 9)
I've just done a quick Google because I had no idea who this was or what you were on about. I'd never heard of Peter Wyngarde before. Apparently he was friends with Morrissey.
The album sounds worth looking out. A track called 'Peter Wyngarde commits rape' is an audacious choice for a single.
It sounds not unlike - though rather more salacious than - the excellent William Shatner album 'has-been'.
It's an incredible album, with some really beautiful musical and lyrics. But it's also quite shocking. And sinister. And racist. And fiercely weird.
A description strangely reminiscent of someone or other.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
Be involved in the deaths of two kids, get investigated
Doesn't sound quite so unfair now, does it?
The police vehicle wasn’t involved in the accident, and was quite some distance away at the time.
My understanding was that the suspects took a footpath between two roads, that the police van couldn’t follow them down, and were involved in a collision at the other end of the footpath where it met another road.
The problems in which case being the design of the footpath, and the availability of overpowered electric scooters which need to be licenced as motorbikes - and very little to do with the two police officers involved.
Oh. You don't have the excuse of ignorance, apparently.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
From that, possibly you didn't follow the story at the time.
People who did will know that the boys died in a crash, and then South Wales Police (and the Commissioner) issued strong statements denying that they had been followed by the police. From CCTV evidence it became clear they had been followed.
If you have a brain and can bear to try to engage it rather than spouting sub-Daily-Mail drivel, perhaps you can think of a reason the officers who followed the boys might have been accused of gross misconduct.
Why is it gross misconduct to follow them? What am I missing?
The video I have seen (not the BBC version) shows the van a considerable distance behind the bike. I have no doubt that the boys thought they were being followed and acted accordingly. Law abiding citizens tend to stop if requested by the police.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
From that, possibly you didn't follow the story at the time.
People who did will know that the boys died in a crash, and then South Wales Police (and the Commissioner) issued strong statements denying that they had been followed by the police. From CCTV evidence it became clear they had been followed.
If you have a brain and can bear to try to engage it rather than spouting sub-Daily-Mail drivel, perhaps you can think of a reason the officers who followed the boys might have been accused of gross misconduct.
Why is it gross misconduct to follow them? What am I missing?
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
Be involved in the deaths of two kids, get investigated
Doesn't sound quite so unfair now, does it?
The police vehicle wasn’t involved in the accident, and was quite some distance away at the time.
My understanding was that the suspects took a footpath between two roads, that the police van couldn’t follow them down, and were involved in a collision at the other end of the footpath where it met another road.
The problems in which case being the design of the footpath, and the availability of overpowered electric scooters which need to be licenced as motorbikes - and very little to do with the two police officers involved.
Oh. You don't have the excuse of ignorance, apparently.
No.
This is a repeat of the phone theft gangs a few years ago, before Apple made stolen phones un-useable. The police got told to back off chasing suspects, in case the suspect got injured. With the result that the gangs were granted total immunity to keep mugging people across London.
In reference to the Mail front page it's definitely time for a change of government. Why? Because:
Labour has failed to stop the small boats. Labour has failed to curb inflation. Labour has failed to curb immigration. Labour has made a mess of Brexit. Labour has presided over a cost of living crisis. Labour has failed to significantly improve productivity over the last 13 years. Labour has failed to stop the spread of infectious wokeness. Starmer has been a dud PM.
Have I got that right?
You make a good point wittily. But there is a kernel of a valid point in there: while the Tories have been bad at all the above, it's hard to see how Labour's proposed solutions wouldn't have made all the above situations worse. Immigration? Labour have never shown any indication that they consider it anything but a good thing. Inflation? When did Labour last urge less public spending? Productivity? It's not particularly obvious that Labour has grasped the issue. Brexit? I'm not sure Labour really sees any solutions or opportunities other than deeper integration with Europe. Wokeness? They love it. Arguably Starmer has a big lead on competence over Boris and Liz and is at worst even stevens with Rishi.
Au contraire: the Conservatives have failed to stop woke; Labour could claim success in spreading woke.
I mean, there'd be no change on the rest, but there they could make a real case for having succeeded.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
Be involved in the deaths of two kids, get investigated
Doesn't sound quite so unfair now, does it?
The police vehicle wasn’t involved in the accident, and was quite some distance away at the time.
My understanding was that the suspects took a footpath between two roads, that the police van couldn’t follow them down, and were involved in a collision at the other end of the footpath where it met another road.
The problems in which case being the design of the footpath, and the availability of overpowered electric scooters which need to be licenced as motorbikes - and very little to do with the two police officers involved.
If it's all the same with you, I'll let the investigation decide that. I'm sure if they've done nothing wrong they will be cleared.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
Be involved in the deaths of two kids, get investigated
Doesn't sound quite so unfair now, does it?
The police vehicle wasn’t involved in the accident, and was quite some distance away at the time.
My understanding was that the suspects took a footpath between two roads, that the police van couldn’t follow them down, and were involved in a collision at the other end of the footpath where it met another road.
The problems in which case being the design of the footpath, and the availability of overpowered electric scooters which need to be licenced as motorbikes - and very little to do with the two police officers involved.
Oh. You don't have the excuse of ignorance, apparently.
No.
This is a repeat of the phone theft gangs a few years ago, before Apple made stolen phones un-useable. The police got told to back off chasing suspects, in case the suspect got injured. With the result that the gangs were granted total immunity to keep mugging people across London.
I just eagerly unwrapped my hotel pillow-chocolate and discovered it’s actually a mint
The disappointment is surprisingly severe
I once - in a hotel in Bruges - eagerly unwrapped my hotel pillow chocolate and was disappointed and bemused to find that it appeared actually to be a sleeping pill. I didn't use it. The hotel also had the slowest and smallest lift I have ever been in. Two people could fit in it, but not if they had any luggage.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
From that, possibly you didn't follow the story at the time.
People who did will know that the boys died in a crash, and then South Wales Police (and the Commissioner) issued strong statements denying that they had been followed by the police. From CCTV evidence it became clear they had been followed.
If you have a brain and can bear to try to engage it rather than spouting sub-Daily-Mail drivel, perhaps you can think of a reason the officers who followed the boys might have been accused of gross misconduct.
Why is it gross misconduct to follow them? What am I missing?
Basic reading ability, evidently.
Whereas your problem apppears to be basic comprehension.
I just eagerly unwrapped my hotel pillow-chocolate and discovered it’s actually a mint
The disappointment is surprisingly severe
I once - in a hotel in Bruges - eagerly unwrapped my hotel pillow chocolate and was disappointed and bemused to find that it appeared actually to be a sleeping pill. I didn't use it. The hotel also had the slowest and smallest lift I have ever been in. Two people could fit in it, but not if they had any luggage.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
From that, possibly you didn't follow the story at the time.
People who did will know that the boys died in a crash, and then South Wales Police (and the Commissioner) issued strong statements denying that they had been followed by the police. From CCTV evidence it became clear they had been followed.
If you have a brain and can bear to try to engage it rather than spouting sub-Daily-Mail drivel, perhaps you can think of a reason the officers who followed the boys might have been accused of gross misconduct.
Why is it gross misconduct to follow them? What am I missing?
Basic reading ability, evidently.
Nope - are you saying that they lied about following them? Its not clear that it was a pursuit - I contend that two things may be true - the boys thought they were being followed, and the officers thought they were driving a long a road.
Maybe I'm thick, but its not clear from what you posted why the charge.
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
I'd commit to Christ if I even slightly believed that. It would be eccentric not to.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
Be involved in the deaths of two kids, get investigated
Doesn't sound quite so unfair now, does it?
The police vehicle wasn’t involved in the accident, and was quite some distance away at the time.
My understanding was that the suspects took a footpath between two roads, that the police van couldn’t follow them down, and were involved in a collision at the other end of the footpath where it met another road.
The problems in which case being the design of the footpath, and the availability of overpowered electric scooters which need to be licenced as motorbikes - and very little to do with the two police officers involved.
If it's all the same with you, I'll let the investigation decide that. I'm sure if they've done nothing wrong they will be cleared.
No issue with that. Other posters seem to have convicted already,
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
I just eagerly unwrapped my hotel pillow-chocolate and discovered it’s actually a mint
The disappointment is surprisingly severe
I once - in a hotel in Bruges - eagerly unwrapped my hotel pillow chocolate and was disappointed and bemused to find that it appeared actually to be a sleeping pill. I didn't use it. The hotel also had the slowest and smallest lift I have ever been in. Two people could fit in it, but not if they had any luggage.
Was it one of those old-fashioned ones with collapsible metal doors?
I just eagerly unwrapped my hotel pillow-chocolate and discovered it’s actually a mint
The disappointment is surprisingly severe
Chocolates on hotel pillows are an absolute abomination of an idea, especially if you've had an agreeable dinner and collapse into bed without noticing the damned thing.
One of the lawyers at the Covid Inquiry has just invoked "the effects of Brexit" as one of the factors.
Almost all of them have done so far. Its quite clear that the covid for justice type groups are throwing mud at everything in the hope something sticks. A lot will I suspect, but its not been edifying so far. The statements have been rather slanted (perhaps understandably).
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
One of the lawyers at the Covid Inquiry has just invoked "the effects of Brexit" as one of the factors.
The only hope is, that by letting the ‘campaign groups’ have their say right at the start, everyone will soon move their focus to the primary aim of the inquiry, which is to allow the government to better prepare for the next massive national emergency.
In his opening address Hugo Keith KC, the lead lawyer to the inquiry, did not shy away from difficult political questions.
The issue of Brexit and whether leaving the EU might have distracted politicians and civil servants from planning for the next pandemic is something victims’ groups have raised in the past.
Keith said that from 2018 onwards that departure and, in particular, planning for a possible no-deal Brexit, required an “enormous amount” of preparations to address “food and medicine supplies, travel and transport, business and borders and so on”.
“Did the attention paid to the risks of a no-deal exit, Operation Yellowhammer as it was known, drain the resources and capacity that should have been continuing the fight against the next pandemic?” he asked.
“Or did all that generic and operational planning, in fact lead to people being better trained and well-marshalled and in fact better prepared to deal with Covid...
Quote Message: My lady, on the evidence so far, and it will be a matter for you, we very much fear that it was the former.” from Hugo Keith KC Lead lawyer to the inquiry My lady, on the evidence so far, and it will be a matter for you, we very much fear that it was the former.”
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
What offense were the two "suspects" in this incident, suspected of committing?
If you’re thinking about getting an e-bike, you’ll need to understand the UK law for electric bikes. It’s legal to ride an e-bike in the UK without a licence, but only if it meets certain requirements: it must be pedal assist instead of ‘twist and go throttle’; and have a maximum power output of 250 watts, with a speed restriction of 15.5mph.
It looked quicker than that to me so for starters -
Riding without a license, riding without insurance & riding without a helmet.
One of the lawyers at the Covid Inquiry has just invoked "the effects of Brexit" as one of the factors.
Almost all of them have done so far. Its quite clear that the covid for justice type groups are throwing mud at everything in the hope something sticks. A lot will I suspect, but its not been edifying so far. The statements have been rather slanted (perhaps understandably).
I have found the TUC lawyer, who is speaking now, to be overly and unnecessarily political in his opening statement, but others struck me as more edifying. They obviously each reflect their organisation's interests, as one would expect.
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
If you commit to the master branch you have a place in the next prod release
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
From that, possibly you didn't follow the story at the time.
People who did will know that the boys died in a crash, and then South Wales Police (and the Commissioner) issued strong statements denying that they had been followed by the police. From CCTV evidence it became clear they had been followed.
If you have a brain and can bear to try to engage it rather than spouting sub-Daily-Mail drivel, perhaps you can think of a reason the officers who followed the boys might have been accused of gross misconduct.
Why is it gross misconduct to follow them? What am I missing?
Basic reading ability, evidently.
Nope - are you saying that they lied about following them?
Unlike the Gor Blimey chorus, I'm not saying anything more than I know. I don't know whether they lied, but it's a possible explanation for the gross misconduct charge that must have been obvious to everyone who followed the story.
Obviously the tweet doesn't say they were charged with gross misconduct simply because they followed suspects. How could anyone think that was the case? There has to be something more.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
What offense were the two "suspects" in this incident, suspected of committing?
If you’re thinking about getting an e-bike, you’ll need to understand the UK law for electric bikes. It’s legal to ride an e-bike in the UK without a licence, but only if it meets certain requirements: it must be pedal assist instead of ‘twist and go throttle’; and have a maximum power output of 250 watts, with a speed restriction of 15.5mph.
It looked quicker than that to me so for starters -
Riding without a license, riding without insurance & riding without a helmet.
It's probably the former but a Dura Ace type figure has fiddled with the electronics.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
What offense were the two "suspects" in this incident, suspected of committing?
If you’re thinking about getting an e-bike, you’ll need to understand the UK law for electric bikes. It’s legal to ride an e-bike in the UK without a licence, but only if it meets certain requirements: it must be pedal assist instead of ‘twist and go throttle’; and have a maximum power output of 250 watts, with a speed restriction of 15.5mph.
It looked quicker than that to me so for starters -
Riding without a license, riding without insurance & riding without a helmet.
Presumably also failing to stop when instructed by a police officer.
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
What if your wife is about to be killed by 20 Nazis, you are 20 yards away and have a gun. What's your next move?
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
The central point of Christian theology is that God will forgive you your sins, if you repent of them and do due obeisance to Him.
It doesn't seem to matter all that much what you do. The argument seems to be that if you don't repent or do the prayer stuff, that you would have been worse.
I can see why a religion wouldn't want to be too fussy about who they accepted as adherents, but it always seemed a bit of a cop out.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
What offense were the two "suspects" in this incident, suspected of committing?
If you’re thinking about getting an e-bike, you’ll need to understand the UK law for electric bikes. It’s legal to ride an e-bike in the UK without a licence, but only if it meets certain requirements: it must be pedal assist instead of ‘twist and go throttle’; and have a maximum power output of 250 watts, with a speed restriction of 15.5mph.
It looked quicker than that to me so for starters -
Riding without a license, riding without insurance & riding without a helmet.
The speed limit is only for the motor assist though, if you can accelerate beyond that by pedalling it's ok, but the motor should cut out.
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
What if your wife is about to be killed by 20 Nazis, you are 20 yards away and have a gun. What's your next move?
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
What if your wife is about to be killed by 20 Nazis, you are 20 yards away and have a gun. What's your next move?
Then you turn full Old Testament God as he drowned the Egyptians in their chariots to protect the Jews!
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
How is Suella Braverman's approach compatible with loving your neighbour? Presumably anyone who supports Braverman cannot have truly committed to Christ either.
Is that what the BBC actually showed, with the 15-second cut in the middle?
Yes, it was utterly disgraceful.
The police van had been following about two seconds behind the boys when filmed earlier. The reason it was further behind in that video was that the boys went the wrong way around a large roundabout, and the van lost time going to right way.
But in any case, it's academic how far behind the police were at any point - except that the van had obviously been pursuing the boys - because (as far as I know) no one suggests the police were close behind at the time of the crash.
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
What if your wife is about to be killed by 20 Nazis, you are 20 yards away and have a gun. What's your next move?
“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52)
Bafflement and confusion from Democratic and Republican US Senators on the latest UFO claims, and quiet from most of the media because they're frightened of looking like cranks.
Is that what the BBC actually showed, with the 15-second cut in the middle?
Yes, it was utterly disgraceful.
The police van had been following about two seconds behind the boys when filmed earlier. The reason it was further behind in that video was that the boys went the wrong way around a large roundabout, and the van lost time going to right way.
But in any case, it's academic how far behind the police were at any point - except that the van had obviously been pursuing the boys - because (as far as I know) no one suggests the police were close behind at the time of the crash.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
What offense were the two "suspects" in this incident, suspected of committing?
If you’re thinking about getting an e-bike, you’ll need to understand the UK law for electric bikes. It’s legal to ride an e-bike in the UK without a licence, but only if it meets certain requirements: it must be pedal assist instead of ‘twist and go throttle’; and have a maximum power output of 250 watts, with a speed restriction of 15.5mph.
It looked quicker than that to me so for starters -
Riding without a license, riding without insurance & riding without a helmet.
The speed limit is only for the motor assist though, if you can accelerate beyond that by pedalling it's ok, but the motor should cut out.
More broadly, it's mad that e-bikes are limited to 15mph (weigh 25kg) but cars (starting at 1,500kg) are not.
Between 2005 and 2018, 548 pedestrians were killed on pavements. 542 by drivers, 6 by cyclists.
I think the government should gently start pushing GPS speed limiters in the next generation of cars. Black boxes too, like in Teslas.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
What offense were the two "suspects" in this incident, suspected of committing?
If you’re thinking about getting an e-bike, you’ll need to understand the UK law for electric bikes. It’s legal to ride an e-bike in the UK without a licence, but only if it meets certain requirements: it must be pedal assist instead of ‘twist and go throttle’; and have a maximum power output of 250 watts, with a speed restriction of 15.5mph.
It looked quicker than that to me so for starters -
Riding without a license, riding without insurance & riding without a helmet.
The speed limit is only for the motor assist though, if you can accelerate beyond that by pedalling it's ok, but the motor should cut out.
It's two teenage lads on the bike not the lovechild of Bjarne Riis at the Hautacam and Eddie Mercx. They aren't pedalling to output that power.
All three fatalities believed to have been stabbed. The third was two miles from the first two. All three injuries believed to be as a result of pedestrian collisions with the suspect’s van. One is critically ill.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
What offense were the two "suspects" in this incident, suspected of committing?
If you’re thinking about getting an e-bike, you’ll need to understand the UK law for electric bikes. It’s legal to ride an e-bike in the UK without a licence, but only if it meets certain requirements: it must be pedal assist instead of ‘twist and go throttle’; and have a maximum power output of 250 watts, with a speed restriction of 15.5mph.
It looked quicker than that to me so for starters -
Riding without a license, riding without insurance & riding without a helmet.
The speed limit is only for the motor assist though, if you can accelerate beyond that by pedalling it's ok, but the motor should cut out.
More broadly, it's mad that e-bikes are limited to 15mph (weigh 25kg) but cars (starting at 1,500kg) are not.
Between 2005 and 2018, 548 pedestrians were killed on pavements. 542 by drivers, 6 by cyclists.
You do need a license to drive a car, whereas for a bicycle you do not, so it seems sensible to put some limits on the output of a motor to be used by someone who isn't licensed.
If you want a motorbike, then you can get a motorbike license.
Is that what the BBC actually showed, with the 15-second cut in the middle?
Yes, it was utterly disgraceful.
The police van had been following about two seconds behind the boys when filmed earlier. The reason it was further behind in that video was that the boys went the wrong way around a large roundabout, and the van lost time going to right way.
But in any case, it's academic how far behind the police were at any point - except that the van had obviously been pursuing the boys - because (as far as I know) no one suggests the police were close behind at the time of the crash.
In which case, what was all the rioting about?
From the coverage, because the police had been seen following them in the next road, and the footage was posted on social media, and probably people jumped to conclusions.
Accurate information was hard to come by at the time. It certainly wasn't coming from the police.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
If they lied to their superiors about the whether or not they were following those kids at the time, then gross misconduct sounds entirely appropriate. If two people die & you lie about your involvement, no matter how tangential, when interviewed by the police under caution, then it’s not going to go well for you is it?
Surely we have to hold the police to, at the very least, the standard we’d expect an ordinary member of the public to be held to in similar circumstances.
Far off topic - and probably way to Woke for many hyper-sensitive, over-irritable PBers:
This past weekend, Joni Mitchell - the pride of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan - performed her first scheduled concert in many years, at the Gorge Amphitheatre, located in the middle of nowhere (or close enough) at George, Washington. (Yes, there IS
By a woman who, following her near-fatal brain aneurysm in 2015, had to relearn how to SPEAK, let alone sing.
Cannot tell you just how proud I am that my own state has hosted this iconic singer and songwriter, and her incredible persona AND performance.
What if there's a trolley heading towards your wife, and you can pull a level that will divert the trolley to a branch line where it will kill three Nazis. But it turns out your wife is a Nazi too, and one of the three branch-line Nazis is pregnant. But it was an incest rape and she prays every day. And your wife, well she makes graven images.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
What offense were the two "suspects" in this incident, suspected of committing?
If you’re thinking about getting an e-bike, you’ll need to understand the UK law for electric bikes. It’s legal to ride an e-bike in the UK without a licence, but only if it meets certain requirements: it must be pedal assist instead of ‘twist and go throttle’; and have a maximum power output of 250 watts, with a speed restriction of 15.5mph.
It looked quicker than that to me so for starters -
Riding without a license, riding without insurance & riding without a helmet.
The speed limit is only for the motor assist though, if you can accelerate beyond that by pedalling it's ok, but the motor should cut out.
More broadly, it's mad that e-bikes are limited to 15mph (weigh 25kg) but cars (starting at 1,500kg) are not.
Between 2005 and 2018, 548 pedestrians were killed on pavements. 542 by drivers, 6 by cyclists.
I think the government should gently start pushing GPS speed limiters in the next generation of cars. Black boxes too, like in Teslas.
There were almost no ‘e-bikes’ or ‘electric scooters’ in 2018. There’s now thousands of them, and they’re a menace.
In his opening address Hugo Keith KC, the lead lawyer to the inquiry, did not shy away from difficult political questions.
The issue of Brexit and whether leaving the EU might have distracted politicians and civil servants from planning for the next pandemic is something victims’ groups have raised in the past.
Keith said that from 2018 onwards that departure and, in particular, planning for a possible no-deal Brexit, required an “enormous amount” of preparations to address “food and medicine supplies, travel and transport, business and borders and so on”.
“Did the attention paid to the risks of a no-deal exit, Operation Yellowhammer as it was known, drain the resources and capacity that should have been continuing the fight against the next pandemic?” he asked.
“Or did all that generic and operational planning, in fact lead to people being better trained and well-marshalled and in fact better prepared to deal with Covid...
Quote Message: My lady, on the evidence so far, and it will be a matter for you, we very much fear that it was the former.” from Hugo Keith KC Lead lawyer to the inquiry My lady, on the evidence so far, and it will be a matter for you, we very much fear that it was the former.”
Hugo Keith KC Lead lawyer to the inquiry
Given 'No Deal Prep' was mainly about political gameplaying it's more likely to have hindered not helped as regards the pandemic. So it looks like I agree with Hugo Keith.
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
What if your wife is about to be killed by 20 Nazis, you are 20 yards away and have a gun. What's your next move?
Then you turn full Old Testament God as he drowned the Egyptians in their chariots to protect the Jews!
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
What if your wife is about to be killed by 20 Nazis, you are 20 yards away and have a gun. What's your next move?
“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52)
And then again: "... he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. ... So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”" (Luke 22:36-38).
What if there's a trolley heading towards your wife, and you can pull a level that will divert the trolley to a branch line where it will kill three Nazis. But it turns out your wife is a Nazi too, and one of the three branch-line Nazis is pregnant. But it was an incest rape and she prays every day. And your wife, well she makes graven images.
The actual write up beneath the headline doesn’t tell us anything new, but is still not as OTT than the very wrong headed headline. It definitely won’t go as far as 5.75, it probably won’t reach 5.5. Nor do the markets think we have lost control of inflation, if they did they would be acting already.
The truth in my opinion, Hunt and BoE want the markets to hear of such resolve, hear it at least 3 times a day, so probably slip the media these stories themselves. In my opinion inflation will be below 5 in the new year, so a success for Rishi Sunak. But a limited success in inflation at 5% doesn’t mean problems gone away, the next round of pay deals will need to be around 5% inflation.
This article seems to suggest Pay is responsible for underlying inflation going up. Truth is wage growth has been high. But there could also be other factors such as price gouging which Hunt and BoE don’t wish the media to flag up.
So many PBers, brains addled with too much freemarket ideology, post about UK better than expected growth and better than expected wage growth as though these things are always good in all situations. This is where PB free marketeers don’t understand the important subtleties of Thatcherism. Growth during overheating and high inflation is not great news if it means gains just getting eaten up by inflation so arn’t real gain at all.
If it sounds like I am calling quite a lot of PBs and their “growth and wage growth, lovely jubbly” posts stupid and naive in this situation, the truth is, I am.
Elitist institution produces elitists shocker. It's just a finishing school for chancers and sociopaths. We'd be better off without it.
Yea, great idea, let us just dumb down everything. The human eco-system needs elites, being chippy about Eton or Harrow doesn't change that. Why do you think so many working class and middle class parents boast about their children "going into medicine"? It is because being a doctor is seen as being in the elite. Whether medicine is an elite, or even whether it should be is by the by. It is seen as such.
We need elites. Railing against that reality is just socialist chippy bollox.
That depends which kinds of elite, I would say. British TV has been dumbed down, partly, and for instance, because of what could be described as anti-elitist arguments during the 1990's, from what I also suppose one could describe as 'chippy populists' like Rupert Murdoch, and Tory politicians from a similar background supporting him.
On the other hand, particularly since the 1980's, Eton has seemed to me to be more often promoting, like a few other schools, much more often an elitist ethos of wealth, power and privilege, than service, culture or intellect, as in the letter from the sadly regretful Etonian teacher below, and as was quoted in the Times.
It is a good post, and I think you have nailed it to some extent. Basically people like the elites that they like or approve of, and loathe those that they don't. Hence it is possible for left leaning people to be massively supine and obsequious to someone because they are a doctor who works for the NHS, even if he (as many have) been educated at Eton, while railing against the terrible elitism of an individual who went to a minor public school who is a hedge fund manager or Tory politician.
It is all best described as irrational hypocrisy.
OTOH, there are rather more training and ongoing quality control for the one career than the others.
Harold Shipman says hi
25 years ago, though. Would be even worse than our PBTories going on about Messrs Corbyn, Brown, etc.
Most obvious and perhaps hyperbolic example, but the idea that all NHS staff are of the highest quality and that the "QC" system is beyond reproach requires a level of naivety only held by those who believe that the NHS is "the envy of the world".
Had a recent encounter with the NHS via mother in law and it was ... not good.
I won't go into the gory details but I have it on good authority from external sources that the ward in question is known to have a poor culture.
The only time the nurses appeared to be doing any actual nursing was when a relief shift of Nigerians turned up at the weekend. The rest of the time they were going through the motions, whether appropriate to the patient or not.
Though they did find time to discuss at length the best source of Prosecco from behind the desk whilst failing to feed their inmates (not joking).
Would they be better if we paid them 20% more? I'm not sure they would.
As someone whose wife and daughter are nurses, what you are describing is not uncommon. Unfortunately the Thursday night clap and NHS hero stuff has only exacebrated the situation.
I wonder if it was partially burn-out from dealing with too many old ladies. Not being short of numbers, just wondering what the point of propping them all up was (which is another question, but should be tackled directly rather than just letting them rot in the corner). Even someone who starts out with good intentions could eventually lose motivation without leadership.
How often do nurses get rotated between wards?
You are right though, if we do too much clapping we stop asking questions.
Is that what the BBC actually showed, with the 15-second cut in the middle?
Yes, it was utterly disgraceful.
The police van had been following about two seconds behind the boys when filmed earlier. The reason it was further behind in that video was that the boys went the wrong way around a large roundabout, and the van lost time going to right way.
But in any case, it's academic how far behind the police were at any point - except that the van had obviously been pursuing the boys - because (as far as I know) no one suggests the police were close behind at the time of the crash.
I've not seen the other film. To be sure - you are not referring to the BBC doctored version?
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
What if your wife is about to be killed by 20 Nazis, you are 20 yards away and have a gun. What's your next move?
“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52)
And then again: "... he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. ... So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”" (Luke 22:36-38).
Penny Mordaunt seems to have bought both the sword and her garment. Some people are just naturally greedy.
Without wishing to sound too much like HYUFD, I believe the standard answer to this by all but the most extreme of Christian fundamentalists is when Christ is reported to have said "My father's house has many rooms", which may just have been him bragging that his dad had a big place, but I believe it is interpreted as saying if you live a good and spiritual life you have a place in heaven.
That is rather contradicted by John 14:6, though.
If you commit to Christ you have a place in heaven yes
What if you commit to Christ and you murder your wife?
Then you haven't committed to Christ as he told you to love your neighbour as yourself, not to kill them.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
How is Suella Braverman's approach compatible with loving your neighbour? Presumably anyone who supports Braverman cannot have truly committed to Christ either.
What if there's a trolley heading towards your wife, and you can pull a level that will divert the trolley to a branch line where it will kill three Nazis. But it turns out your wife is a Nazi too, and one of the three branch-line Nazis is pregnant. But it was an incest rape and she prays every day. And your wife, well she makes graven images.
What then? WHAT THEN?
I think I can answer but to check a point about the wife first. Did you marry her in church or was it just a civil ceremony?
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
Be involved in the deaths of two kids, get investigated
Doesn't sound quite so unfair now, does it?
The police vehicle wasn’t involved in the accident, and was quite some distance away at the time.
My understanding was that the suspects took a footpath between two roads, that the police van couldn’t follow them down, and were involved in a collision at the other end of the footpath where it met another road.
The problems in which case being the design of the footpath, and the availability of overpowered electric scooters which need to be licenced as motorbikes - and very little to do with the two police officers involved.
Oh. You don't have the excuse of ignorance, apparently.
No.
This is a repeat of the phone theft gangs a few years ago, before Apple made stolen phones un-useable. The police got told to back off chasing suspects, in case the suspect got injured. With the result that the gangs were granted total immunity to keep mugging people across London.
Are you a saloon-bar ignoramus tribute act?
I try my best to project that image. Hope you like it.
Two police officers in a marked van who followed two teenage boys on an electric bike before it crashed killing them both in Cardiff have been served with gross misconduct notices, the Independent Office for Police Conduct said
Yet the police continue to wonder why they have a recruitment problem. Chase suspects and get fired.
If they lied to their superiors about the whether or not they were following those kids at the time, then gross misconduct sounds entirely appropriate. If two people die & you lie about your involvement, no matter how tangential, when interviewed by the police under caution, then it’s not going to go well for you is it?
Surely we have to hold the police to, at the very least, the standard we’d expect an ordinary member of the public to be held to in similar circumstances.
It's possible they were trying to find them given the distance between the vehicles, and just happened to be heading in the correct direction. I suspect it's also well possible their superiors said they weren't following without checking with the officers involved and they got bounced into saying they weren't following. The investigation should find out anyway but it'll be two (more) officers on long term sick I suspect with the stress of it all.
Is that what the BBC actually showed, with the 15-second cut in the middle?
Yes, it was utterly disgraceful.
The police van had been following about two seconds behind the boys when filmed earlier. The reason it was further behind in that video was that the boys went the wrong way around a large roundabout, and the van lost time going to right way.
But in any case, it's academic how far behind the police were at any point - except that the van had obviously been pursuing the boys - because (as far as I know) no one suggests the police were close behind at the time of the crash.
I've not seen the other film. To be sure - you are not referring to the BBC doctored version?
That's what I said. They were about two seconds behind when they were filmed earlier. They were further behind in the BBC video.
And frankly it's very silly to call the BBC film "doctored" when it's perfectly obvious that there is a lapse of time between the two part.
Far off topic - and probably way to Woke for many hyper-sensitive, over-irritable PBers:
This past weekend, Joni Mitchell - the pride of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan - performed her first scheduled concert in many years, at the Gorge Amphitheatre, located in the middle of nowhere (or close enough) at George, Washington. (Yes, there IS
By a woman who, following her near-fatal brain aneurysm in 2015, had to relearn how to SPEAK, let alone sing.
Cannot tell you just how proud I am that my own state has hosted this iconic singer and songwriter, and her incredible persona AND performance.
That was Big Yellow Taxi by Joni Mitchell, a song in which Joni complains they paved paradise to put up a parking lot, a measure which actually would have alleviated traffic congestion on the outskirts of paradise, something which Joni singularly fails to point out, perhaps because it doesn't quite fit in with her blinkered view of the world. Nevertheless, nice song.
What if there's a trolley heading towards your wife, and you can pull a level that will divert the trolley to a branch line where it will kill three Nazis. But it turns out your wife is a Nazi too, and one of the three branch-line Nazis is pregnant. But it was an incest rape and she prays every day. And your wife, well she makes graven images.
What then? WHAT THEN?
I think I can answer but to check a point about the wife first. Did you marry her in church or was it just a civil ceremony?
Neither. I inherited her from my brother after he died. Like the Bible says should happen.
What if there's a trolley heading towards your wife, and you can pull a level that will divert the trolley to a branch line where it will kill three Nazis. But it turns out your wife is a Nazi too, and one of the three branch-line Nazis is pregnant. But it was an incest rape and she prays every day. And your wife, well she makes graven images.
What then? WHAT THEN?
I think I can answer but to check a point about the wife first. Did you marry her in church or was it just a civil ceremony?
And which one? As we all know from the political news, at least one Christian sect does not recognise marriages made under other Christian sects.
Is that what the BBC actually showed, with the 15-second cut in the middle?
Yes, it was utterly disgraceful.
The police van had been following about two seconds behind the boys when filmed earlier. The reason it was further behind in that video was that the boys went the wrong way around a large roundabout, and the van lost time going to right way.
But in any case, it's academic how far behind the police were at any point - except that the van had obviously been pursuing the boys - because (as far as I know) no one suggests the police were close behind at the time of the crash.
I've not seen the other film. To be sure - you are not referring to the BBC doctored version?
That's what I said. They were about two seconds behind when they were filmed earlier. They were further behind in the BBC video.
And frankly it's very silly to call the BBC film "doctored" when it's perfectly obvious that there is a lapse of time between the two part.
No its not silly to call it doctored - it is doctored. Just show the video in full,
They didn't do this, partly because it is clear that the van at that time was a long way behind.
Comments
I won't go into the gory details but I have it on good authority from external sources that the ward in question is known to have a poor culture.
The only time the nurses appeared to be doing any actual nursing was when a relief shift of Nigerians turned up at the weekend. The rest of the time they were going through the motions, whether appropriate to the patient or not.
Though they did find time to discuss at length the best source of Prosecco from behind the desk whilst failing to feed their inmates (not joking).
Would they be better if we paid them 20% more? I'm not sure they would.
Doesn't sound quite so unfair now, does it?
The album sounds worth looking out. A track called 'Peter Wyngarde commits rape' is an audacious choice for a single.
It sounds not unlike - though rather more salacious than - the excellent William Shatner album 'has-been'.
We can dimply apprehend that there's an underlying order, but we don't know what language it's written in, he said.
It is a discount for avoiding the cost and resource of a full trial
My understanding was that the suspects took a footpath between two roads, that the police van couldn’t follow them down, and were involved in a collision at the other end of the footpath where it met another road.
The problems in which case being the design of the footpath, and the availability of overpowered electric scooters which need to be licenced as motorbikes - and very little to do with the two police officers involved.
And wait until you see our self inflicted food price rises come October as new rules kick in.
People who did will know that the boys died in a crash, and then South Wales Police (and the Commissioner) issued strong statements denying that they had been followed by the police. From CCTV evidence it became clear they had been followed.
If you have a brain and can bear to try to engage it rather than spouting sub-Daily-Mail drivel, perhaps you can think of a reason the officers who followed the boys might have been accused of gross misconduct.
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1668602649120235521?s=20
The video I have seen (not the BBC version) shows the van a considerable distance behind the bike. I have no doubt that the boys thought they were being followed and acted accordingly. Law abiding citizens tend to stop if requested by the police.
This is a repeat of the phone theft gangs a few years ago, before Apple made stolen phones un-useable. The police got told to back off chasing suspects, in case the suspect got injured. With the result that the gangs were granted total immunity to keep mugging people across London.
I mean, there'd be no change on the rest, but there they could make a real case for having succeeded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2hb67Gm8sM
I didn't use it.
The hotel also had the slowest and smallest lift I have ever been in. Two people could fit in it, but not if they had any luggage.
Maybe I'm thick, but its not clear from what you posted why the charge.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1661480942719111169
https://www.facebook.com/FansBillyConnolly/videos/billy-connolly-hotel-room/752563692566809/
Reform UK is the renamed Brexit Party - Farage's ego trip.
Reclaim is Laurence Fox's ego trip.
Did Brexit damage pandemic planning?
Jim Reed
Health reporter, BBC News
In his opening address Hugo Keith KC, the lead lawyer to the inquiry, did not shy away from difficult political questions.
The issue of Brexit and whether leaving the EU might have distracted politicians and civil servants from planning for the next pandemic is something victims’ groups have raised in the past.
Keith said that from 2018 onwards that departure and, in particular, planning for a possible no-deal Brexit, required an “enormous amount” of preparations to address “food and medicine supplies, travel and transport, business and borders and so on”.
“Did the attention paid to the risks of a no-deal exit, Operation Yellowhammer as it was known, drain the resources and capacity that should have been continuing the fight against the next pandemic?” he asked.
“Or did all that generic and operational planning, in fact lead to people being better trained and well-marshalled and in fact better prepared to deal with Covid...
Quote Message: My lady, on the evidence so far, and it will be a matter for you, we very much fear that it was the former.” from Hugo Keith KC Lead lawyer to the inquiry
My lady, on the evidence so far, and it will be a matter for you, we very much fear that it was the former.”
Hugo Keith KC
Lead lawyer to the inquiry
It looked quicker than that to me so for starters -
Riding without a license, riding without insurance & riding without a helmet.
Obviously the tweet doesn't say they were charged with gross misconduct simply because they followed suspects. How could anyone think that was the case? There has to be something more.
He also upheld the Ten Commandments laws of Moses ie including not to kill
It doesn't seem to matter all that much what you do. The argument seems to be that if you don't repent or do the prayer stuff, that you would have been worse.
I can see why a religion wouldn't want to be too fussy about who they accepted as adherents, but it always seemed a bit of a cop out.
But in any case, it's academic how far behind the police were at any point - except that the van had obviously been pursuing the boys - because (as far as I know) no one suggests the police were close behind at the time of the crash.
https://twitter.com/RogueUAPTF/status/1668623494530342915
Between 2005 and 2018, 548 pedestrians were killed on pavements. 542 by drivers, 6 by cyclists.
I think the government should gently start pushing GPS speed limiters in the next generation of cars. Black boxes too, like in Teslas.
All three fatalities believed to have been stabbed. The third was two miles from the first two.
All three injuries believed to be as a result of pedestrian collisions with the suspect’s van. One is critically ill.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/13/nottingham-incident-live-updates-police-road-closures/
If you want a motorbike, then you can get a motorbike license.
Accurate information was hard to come by at the time. It certainly wasn't coming from the police.
Surely we have to hold the police to, at the very least, the standard we’d expect an ordinary member of the public to be held to in similar circumstances.
This past weekend, Joni Mitchell - the pride of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan - performed her first scheduled concert in many years, at the Gorge Amphitheatre, located in the middle of nowhere (or close enough) at George, Washington. (Yes, there IS
By a woman who, following her near-fatal brain aneurysm in 2015, had to relearn how to SPEAK, let alone sing.
Cannot tell you just how proud I am that my own state has hosted this iconic singer and songwriter, and her incredible persona AND performance.
Then - Big Yellow Taxi - Joni Mitchell (1970)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ratQlft_G5c
Now - Big Yellow Taxi - Joni & Friends (2023)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_0X6Rp_DsM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gorge_Amphitheatre
What then? WHAT THEN?
The truth in my opinion, Hunt and BoE want the markets to hear of such resolve, hear it at least 3 times a day, so probably slip the media these stories themselves. In my opinion inflation will be below 5 in the new year, so a success for Rishi Sunak. But a limited success in inflation at 5% doesn’t mean problems gone away, the next round of pay deals will need to be around 5% inflation.
This article seems to suggest Pay is responsible for underlying inflation going up. Truth is wage growth has been high. But there could also be other factors such as price gouging which Hunt and BoE don’t wish the media to flag up.
So many PBers, brains addled with too much freemarket ideology, post about UK better than expected growth and better than expected wage growth as though these things are always good in all situations. This is where PB free marketeers don’t understand the important subtleties of Thatcherism. Growth during overheating and high inflation is not great news if it means gains just getting eaten up by inflation so arn’t real gain at all.
If it sounds like I am calling quite a lot of PBs and their “growth and wage growth, lovely jubbly” posts stupid and naive in this situation, the truth is, I am.
How often do nurses get rotated between wards?
You are right though, if we do too much clapping we stop asking questions.
"Thou" is the singular form, not the plural. "Ye" is the plural. God is telling us it's ok to kill as long as there are many of you doing it.
I suspect it's also well possible their superiors said they weren't following without checking with the officers involved and they got bounced into saying they weren't following.
The investigation should find out anyway but it'll be two (more) officers on long term sick I suspect with the stress of it all.
And frankly it's very silly to call the BBC film "doctored" when it's perfectly obvious that there is a lapse of time between the two part.
Seriously, though, very good to see.
They didn't do this, partly because it is clear that the van at that time was a long way behind.