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Support for Britain becoming a republic reaches new high – politicalbetting.com

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  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Yes, many religious people take such a view, including me. But what has religion got so exclusively to do with it? There are perfectly good secular this world, personal, society, and social good reasons for marriage, permanence, 'for better for worse', monogamy and faithfulness.

    Marriage is a human, not religious invention.
    With other human-made contracts, if both parties want to end the contract, they can.

  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Sunak takes helicopter to Yorkshire – via stopoff just two miles from an airport

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/26/sunak-takes-helicopter-yorkshire-stopoff-two-miles-from-airport
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    I think it says a lot about us that people are asked to swear oaths when they don't know the future. I for one dont believe the vast majority enter into a marriage without thinking this is the one, discovering they are wrong is just life and they shouldnt be penalised for it
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    First but I would love to see the results when you suggest your replace the Monarchy with either an appointed (worthy as in Ireland) or elected figurehead.

    I suspect when you do people will suddenly find the Monarchy an acceptable compromise.

    That is very much my position...constituional monarchy is the worst way to select a head of state except all the rest
    You don't think people can be trusted to select one?
    I dont think they can be trusted given they vote mostly labour or tory in general elections I think I have a fair amount of evidence on my side
    The problem won't be with those who vote. The problem will be with those willing to stand.

    (BTW, for the same reason the HoL should be appointed not elected).

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,846

    RobD said:

    I don't think the cost and pageantry of the coronation and support for the monarchy, or not, are particularly strongly correlated.

    It's prominence, dominance and the start of a new reign has just probably forced some people to have an opinion.

    Would you concede that the Royal Family is going to become less popular over time - that the high point was under Elizabeth II?
    I wonder how many people said the same thing about previous long-reigning monarchs.
    What I am saying is what all the polls say. Or do you think Charles will be more popular than Elizabeth?
    You said that the high point was under Elizabeth, the polls aren't saying that because they don't look infinitely far into the future. And no, I wasn't saying that. I was thinking about what people may have said after the deaths of previous long-reining monarchs.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696
    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    No fault divorce is not about a breach of contract, though, is it? It’s about 2 parties to a contract mutually wishing to terminate that contract. That’s allowed in commercial contracts, isn’t it?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    First but I would love to see the results when you suggest your replace the Monarchy with either an appointed (worthy as in Ireland) or elected figurehead.

    I suspect when you do people will suddenly find the Monarchy an acceptable compromise.

    That is very much my position...constituional monarchy is the worst way to select a head of state except all the rest
    You don't think people can be trusted to select one?
    I dont think they can be trusted given they vote mostly labour or tory in general elections I think I have a fair amount of evidence on my side
    So you don't think the people can be trusted to select anybody?
    Actually no I dont because a) most people dont care enough to be politically aware, b) the people they get to select from are universally crap (not their fault) and c) Have you met the average person and 50% are thicker than that
    Yes, yes. People are thick. Not everybody can be in the top 90% like you.
    I havent claimed to be the top 90% I do claim to be more politically aware than most voters which includes people more intelligent than me
    Sorry, maybe you're in the top 95% then? 99%? How far do I need to go :lol:
    No wasnt saying it as low. Why invent straw man arguments? Its probably because you are a fuckwit.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I don't think the cost and pageantry of the coronation and support for the monarchy, or not, are particularly strongly correlated.

    It's prominence, dominance and the start of a new reign has just probably forced some people to have an opinion.

    Would you concede that the Royal Family is going to become less popular over time - that the high point was under Elizabeth II?
    I wonder how many people said the same thing about previous long-reigning monarchs.
    What I am saying is what all the polls say. Or do you think Charles will be more popular than Elizabeth?
    You said that the high point was under Elizabeth, the polls aren't saying that because they don't look infinitely far into the future. And no, I wasn't saying that. I was thinking about what people may have said after the deaths of previous long-reining monarchs.
    The high point was under Elizabeth yes.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,846

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I don't think the cost and pageantry of the coronation and support for the monarchy, or not, are particularly strongly correlated.

    It's prominence, dominance and the start of a new reign has just probably forced some people to have an opinion.

    Would you concede that the Royal Family is going to become less popular over time - that the high point was under Elizabeth II?
    I wonder how many people said the same thing about previous long-reigning monarchs.
    What I am saying is what all the polls say. Or do you think Charles will be more popular than Elizabeth?
    You said that the high point was under Elizabeth, the polls aren't saying that because they don't look infinitely far into the future. And no, I wasn't saying that. I was thinking about what people may have said after the deaths of previous long-reining monarchs.
    The high point was under Elizabeth yes.
    How do you know? Who knows what the future holds.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    edited May 2023

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    No fault divorce is not about a breach of contract, though, is it? It’s about 2 parties to a contract mutually wishing to terminate that contract. That’s allowed in commercial contracts, isn’t it?
    No. The point about no fault divorce is that one of two parties can unilaterally decide the position without any reference at all to the thoughts of the other. The other party's rights are entirely obliterated. That is what 'no fault divorce' is.

    Personally I think in our sort of society this is unavoidable, but in human and philosophical terms it's horrendous.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    First but I would love to see the results when you suggest your replace the Monarchy with either an appointed (worthy as in Ireland) or elected figurehead.

    I suspect when you do people will suddenly find the Monarchy an acceptable compromise.

    That is very much my position...constituional monarchy is the worst way to select a head of state except all the rest
    You don't think people can be trusted to select one?
    I dont think they can be trusted given they vote mostly labour or tory in general elections I think I have a fair amount of evidence on my side
    So you don't think the people can be trusted to select anybody?
    Actually no I dont because a) most people dont care enough to be politically aware, b) the people they get to select from are universally crap (not their fault) and c) Have you met the average person and 50% are thicker than that
    Yes, yes. People are thick. Not everybody can be in the top 90% like you.
    I havent claimed to be the top 90% I do claim to be more politically aware than most voters which includes people more intelligent than me
    Sorry, maybe you're in the top 95% then? 99%? How far do I need to go :lol:
    No wasnt saying it as low. Why invent straw man arguments? Its probably because you are a fuckwit.
    You might need to think carefully about what "being in the top 90%" means.
    It's a subtle dig, so just think about it for a moment.
    Then have a think about who, if anyone, is the fuckwit here.
    No my expression of not being in the 90 percent clearly indicated I didn't claim to be in the top 90 percent. I dont need to think about who is the fuckwit because it is obviously you
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I don't think the cost and pageantry of the coronation and support for the monarchy, or not, are particularly strongly correlated.

    It's prominence, dominance and the start of a new reign has just probably forced some people to have an opinion.

    Would you concede that the Royal Family is going to become less popular over time - that the high point was under Elizabeth II?
    I wonder how many people said the same thing about previous long-reigning monarchs.
    What I am saying is what all the polls say. Or do you think Charles will be more popular than Elizabeth?
    You said that the high point was under Elizabeth, the polls aren't saying that because they don't look infinitely far into the future. And no, I wasn't saying that. I was thinking about what people may have said after the deaths of previous long-reining monarchs.
    The high point was under Elizabeth yes.
    How do you know? Who knows what the future holds.
    Do you think the monarchy will be more popular under Charles? In which case, that was the high point yes
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    edited May 2023
    Farooq said:

    I havent claimed to be the top 90% is one of my all-time favourite self owns. I really, honestly laughed out loud.

    because you are a drooling idiot your village is wondering where you are
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,145

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    No fault divorce is not about a breach of contract, though, is it? It’s about 2 parties to a contract mutually wishing to terminate that contract. That’s allowed in commercial contracts, isn’t it?
    It’s not necessarily about mutual agreement. It can be about one spouse (eg Newt Gingrich) deciding they wish to dump the other.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    I havent claimed to be the top 90% is one of my all-time favourite self owns. I really, honestly laughed out loud.

    because you are a drooling idiot your village is wondering where you are
    Can I be up next, use your best insult
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    I think it says a lot about us that people are asked to swear oaths when they don't know the future. I for one dont believe the vast majority enter into a marriage without thinking this is the one, discovering they are wrong is just life and they shouldnt be penalised for it
    FWIW it's not an oath, it's a promise or covenant which in our law neither party is obliged under any circumstances to abide by. The deeper meaning of marriage has been privatised - a couple can have this is they choose it. No external framework or law supports it.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,846

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I don't think the cost and pageantry of the coronation and support for the monarchy, or not, are particularly strongly correlated.

    It's prominence, dominance and the start of a new reign has just probably forced some people to have an opinion.

    Would you concede that the Royal Family is going to become less popular over time - that the high point was under Elizabeth II?
    I wonder how many people said the same thing about previous long-reigning monarchs.
    What I am saying is what all the polls say. Or do you think Charles will be more popular than Elizabeth?
    You said that the high point was under Elizabeth, the polls aren't saying that because they don't look infinitely far into the future. And no, I wasn't saying that. I was thinking about what people may have said after the deaths of previous long-reining monarchs.
    The high point was under Elizabeth yes.
    How do you know? Who knows what the future holds.
    Do you think the monarchy will be more popular under Charles? In which case, that was the high point yes
    Why the focus on Charles? Your claim was about the high point of popularity, not restricted to his reign. I have no idea what the figures will be like in 10, 25, 50 years, and neither do you.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,644
    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,767
    Looks like the Phillip Schofield story which everyone knew about already is finally breaking.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,145
    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    I think it says a lot about us that people are asked to swear oaths when they don't know the future. I for one dont believe the vast majority enter into a marriage without thinking this is the one, discovering they are wrong is just life and they shouldnt be penalised for it
    We’re all adults, who face no duress, in this day and age, to get married.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1662086484407508992

    Chopper's Politics Newsletter: Nigel Farage considering 'volcanic' return to politics 💥

    "If I were to, there would be a short term volcanic eruption. The wokerarti would be on the smelling salts. Even the vegan community might go for a bacon sandwich."

    Wouldn't surprise me. There is a Nigel Farage shaped hole in our hard right populist politics. Only one way to fill it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,145
    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,644
    Obviously if two married people despise each other, they must be compelled to live together. Without a large population of spouses who cause each other mutual revulsion, marriage would be a farce, you see. For goodness' sake.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    edited May 2023

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    I havent claimed to be the top 90% is one of my all-time favourite self owns. I really, honestly laughed out loud.

    because you are a drooling idiot your village is wondering where you are
    Can I be up next, use your best insult
    We have traded insults back and forth....when I have ever claimed though that I am more intelligent than most or earn more than most or richer than most. How does that suddenly translate into claiming I am not in the top 90% to indicate that I am higher than that? Which is what the other poster is implying. Yes more politically aware than most and I think that applies to most that post here because the majority of the country never thinks about politics.

    Sorry not to call you anything and disappoint you
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,960
    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696
    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    No fault divorce is not about a breach of contract, though, is it? It’s about 2 parties to a contract mutually wishing to terminate that contract. That’s allowed in commercial contracts, isn’t it?
    No. The point about no fault divorce is that one of two parties can unilaterally decide the position without any reference at all to the thoughts of the other. The other party's rights are entirely obliterated. That is what 'no fault divorce' is.

    Personally I think in our sort of society this is unavoidable, but in human and philosophical terms it's horrendous.
    OK, thanks for the explanation.

    When you say the other party’s rights are obliterated… their rights to what? To be married to someone who doesn’t want to be married to them? What would you suggest the unhappy spouse should be obliged to do, specifically?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Sean_F said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    I think it says a lot about us that people are asked to swear oaths when they don't know the future. I for one dont believe the vast majority enter into a marriage without thinking this is the one, discovering they are wrong is just life and they shouldnt be penalised for it
    We’re all adults, who face no duress, in this day and age, to get married.
    No legal duress certainly but there is also social pressure from friends and especially family
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I don't think the cost and pageantry of the coronation and support for the monarchy, or not, are particularly strongly correlated.

    It's prominence, dominance and the start of a new reign has just probably forced some people to have an opinion.

    Would you concede that the Royal Family is going to become less popular over time - that the high point was under Elizabeth II?
    I wonder how many people said the same thing about previous long-reigning monarchs.
    What I am saying is what all the polls say. Or do you think Charles will be more popular than Elizabeth?
    You said that the high point was under Elizabeth, the polls aren't saying that because they don't look infinitely far into the future. And no, I wasn't saying that. I was thinking about what people may have said after the deaths of previous long-reining monarchs.
    The high point was under Elizabeth yes.
    I think there was some support for Elizabeth that was personal and not monarchical, but not much.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,696
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    No fault divorce is not about a breach of contract, though, is it? It’s about 2 parties to a contract mutually wishing to terminate that contract. That’s allowed in commercial contracts, isn’t it?
    It’s not necessarily about mutual agreement. It can be about one spouse (eg Newt Gingrich) deciding they wish to dump the other.
    Thanks. But isn’t “dump” a somewhat loaded word? There has to be a divorce settlement.
  • PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 662
    The word "allegedly" does not give you cover to say anything you want.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    I don't think the cost and pageantry of the coronation and support for the monarchy, or not, are particularly strongly correlated.

    It's prominence, dominance and the start of a new reign has just probably forced some people to have an opinion.

    Would you concede that the Royal Family is going to become less popular over time - that the high point was under Elizabeth II?
    I wonder how many people said the same thing about previous long-reigning monarchs.
    What I am saying is what all the polls say. Or do you think Charles will be more popular than Elizabeth?
    You said that the high point was under Elizabeth, the polls aren't saying that because they don't look infinitely far into the future. And no, I wasn't saying that. I was thinking about what people may have said after the deaths of previous long-reining monarchs.
    The high point was under Elizabeth yes.
    I think there was some support for Elizabeth that was personal and not monarchical, but not much.
    I had a tremendous respect for her but I still do not support the existence of the monarchy in any way.

    Of course that is very different from actively seeing it abolished - which I also do not support.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.
    It doesn't conflict with that. It just removes the need to explain in public what has gone wrong in private.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    Looks like the Phillip Schofield story which everyone knew about already is finally breaking.

    I can't say it surprises me.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,851

    Roger said:


    Roger said:

    I was quite enjoying this woke not woke stuff. I haven't quite got my head round it yet......

    I went to the Cannes film festival on Wednesday and three girls were doing a synchronised walk down the Croisette topless. (It's tricky grabbing attention)

    The question is what would the correct woke response be?

    The question is, did you get inside any of the festival, if so what can you report?

    A friend of mine, who wrote the plays I acted in, went last week, went down to walk about because he likes to think he’s in the trade, but a selfie with Harrison Ford and a viewing of directors cut of Basic Instinct is all he managed.

    A selfie on the Red Carpet with Harrison Ford doesn't sound bad. Certainly beats one with this years favourite Ken Loach.

    I'm hoping Jonathan Glazer does well. A very talented commercials directors and I'm told this one is really good.

    PS Like to guess which is older the Cannes Film Festival or the Monaco grand Prix?

    Clue. It surprised me.
    Obviously the film festival is older, oldest in the world, no point even googling.

    I loved Under The Skin and how it was made. Scarlet Johansson driving a white van around Glasgow like a fly on a fishing line, what’s not to like. Not sure about his 4th film. Everything to do with the Shoah I find difficult to watch, sad depressing and makes me angry, so won’t seek it out. Four features in 24 years is slow going isn’t it?

    Ken Loach announced this is his last film, so I’m sure he’ll get a send off on his last lap of honour. More appreciated abroad than at home? I liked Land and Freedom, but every other Loach film I have seen I didn’t like at all, they are like books dense and slow in prose but superficial in premise. I know friends who went on a March and Loach was there, and he really wound them up being obnoxious about their politics.

    I also suspect UK film industry are run by a luvvies club full of Loach acolytes, who all know each other, money given out to each other like a closed shop. Hopefully not as bad as the French film industry is at closing ranks

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/french-actor-adele-haenel-alleges-she-was-sexually-harassed-by-director 😠
    The Monaco Grand Prix is number 80 where as it is the 76th Cannes Film Festival.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    Hell no as a child of divorced parents it was more damaging to have two parents at war than them splitting up. Sometimes splitting is best for the kids
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,145

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
    I would be better off, financially.

    My wife is substantially better off than I am. I could leave her for another, and get 50% of our joint assets.

    That would be lawful, but certainly not just.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    No fault divorce is not about a breach of contract, though, is it? It’s about 2 parties to a contract mutually wishing to terminate that contract. That’s allowed in commercial contracts, isn’t it?
    No. The point about no fault divorce is that one of two parties can unilaterally decide the position without any reference at all to the thoughts of the other. The other party's rights are entirely obliterated. That is what 'no fault divorce' is.

    Personally I think in our sort of society this is unavoidable, but in human and philosophical terms it's horrendous.
    OK, thanks for the explanation.

    When you say the other party’s rights are obliterated… their rights to what? To be married to someone who doesn’t want to be married to them? What would you suggest the unhappy spouse should be obliged to do, specifically?
    You perfectly express the problem and why I think 'no fault' is inevitable. But its availability on its own undermines the concept and meaning of the mutual promise made - 'for better, for worse' and all that.

    I don't think there is a less bad way of doing the law, but I still want its use to be very rare. I don't hold my breath.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,932

    The word "allegedly" does not give you cover to say anything you want.

    Allegedly.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,796
    edited May 2023

    Looks like the Phillip Schofield story which everyone knew about already is finally breaking.

    Are we allowed to post the name of [redacted] now? Or shall I bang on about the ships of Picard Series 3 instead? Hmm, it's a puzzle and no mistake.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,932
    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    Hell no as a child of divorced parents it was more damaging to have two parents at war than them splitting up. Sometimes splitting is best for the kids
    A friend of mine was in a tumultuous relationship for many years. When they finally separated and divorced, the son said "thank fuck for that".
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    Hell no as a child of divorced parents it was more damaging to have two parents at war than them splitting up. Sometimes splitting is best for the kids
    A friend of mine was in a tumultuous relationship for many years. When they finally separated and divorced, the son said "thank fuck for that".
    precisely...as a child its always a disaster because its what you are used to, long term though it can be more beneficial than always being in the middle of the war
  • CorrectHorseBatCorrectHorseBat Posts: 1,761
    But the story does seem to imply Schofield was allegedly involved with a much younger man, am I allowed to say that?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    Farooq said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    Hell no as a child of divorced parents it was more damaging to have two parents at war than them splitting up. Sometimes splitting is best for the kids
    Agreed, and beyond that, if we think about marriage being merely a vehicle for procreation and child-rearing, we start to open up the idea of restricting it only to heterosexual couples who are fertile.

    What's that, you're fifty? Sorry, too old, marriage license denied. Etc.
    No, that's not the world I want.
    I don't object to marriage at all I do object to the idea the till death us do part thing is held sacred. Living changes us and what we want now, or need now may not be what we want or need in ten years time. I totally am in awe of people that are happily married after 50 years. Good luck to them and celebrate it. Holding all relationships to that standard is never going to work though
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
    I would be better off, financially.

    My wife is substantially better off than I am. I could leave her for another, and get 50% of our joint assets.

    That would be lawful, but certainly not just.
    You've got to speculate to accumulate.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994

    But the story does seem to imply Schofield was allegedly involved with a much younger man, am I allowed to say that?

    The story is now in the public realm:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65729361
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    No fault divorce is not about a breach of contract, though, is it? It’s about 2 parties to a contract mutually wishing to terminate that contract. That’s allowed in commercial contracts, isn’t it?
    No. The point about no fault divorce is that one of two parties can unilaterally decide the position without any reference at all to the thoughts of the other. The other party's rights are entirely obliterated. That is what 'no fault divorce' is.

    Personally I think in our sort of society this is unavoidable, but in human and philosophical terms it's horrendous.
    The rights of the other party are not entirely obliterated. The financial consequences for example cannot be unilaterally decided by anybody. The only 'right' you're talking about is the right of somebody to insist their marriage continues despite their spouse wishing to end it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
    I would be better off, financially.

    My wife is substantially better off than I am. I could leave her for another, and get 50% of our joint assets.

    That would be lawful, but certainly not just.
    You've got to speculate to accumulate.
    No one is telling sean he needs to divorce....however what if your wife becomes for example a heroin addict or takes a sword and runs it through you...should you still be expected to stay with them....only one of the above has happened to me with a girl I lived with and thought I knew
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    It's about betrayal of someone you love and care for deeply. That what's important to me.

    The trouble is it's challenging to remain absolutely faithful, 100%, to the same partner for your entire life when it's only human to be sexually attracted to other people. Sometimes strongly.

    Occasionally that bubble bursts, and then it gets complicated.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,205

    Looks like the Phillip Schofield story which everyone knew about already is finally breaking.

    I didn't know about it, but his statement seems rather carefully worded.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65729361

    And LOLing at him having to apologise to the Daily Mail...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,329

    But the story does seem to imply Schofield was allegedly involved with a much younger man, am I allowed to say that?

    The story is now in the public realm:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65729361
    Was this not public knowledge when he came out?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,576
    Emails hiring boat suspected of Nord Stream attack came from Ukraine, finds German investigation
    Spiegel reports that investigators have found more evidence suggesting pro-Ukrainian group was behind sabotage of gas pipelines

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/05/26/emails-hiring-boat-suspected-of-nord-stream-attack-ukraine/ (£££)

    The lab leak hypothesis is back in play.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805

    Emails hiring boat suspected of Nord Stream attack came from Ukraine, finds German investigation
    Spiegel reports that investigators have found more evidence suggesting pro-Ukrainian group was behind sabotage of gas pipelines

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/05/26/emails-hiring-boat-suspected-of-nord-stream-attack-ukraine/ (£££)

    The lab leak hypothesis is back in play.

    Fascinating.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    But the story does seem to imply Schofield was allegedly involved with a much younger man, am I allowed to say that?

    The story is now in the public realm:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65729361
    Was this not public knowledge when he came out?
    Some much older man befriends much younger employee and eventually turns into a sexual relationship? There’s a word for that.
    Grooming.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,145
    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
    I would be better off, financially.

    My wife is substantially better off than I am. I could leave her for another, and get 50% of our joint assets.

    That would be lawful, but certainly not just.
    You've got to speculate to accumulate.
    No one is telling sean he needs to divorce....however what if your wife becomes for example a heroin addict or takes a sword and runs it through you...should you still be expected to stay with them....only one of the above has happened to me with a girl I lived with and thought I knew
    Of course. No one should be required to remain in a marriage that has become hell.

    But, I’ve known too many men who’ve walked out, once their wives got too old for them, or wanted children.

    I fear I have strong views on the subject.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    On Topic.

    I mean "MONARCHY" has a 34% lead over REPUBLIC and seems to be pretty overwhelmingly liked?

    By the time that lead is eroded Chas and Camilla will be gone and the firm will be on to Wills and Kate who will prove a much more popular King and Queen.

    The future of the Monarchy is assured for this Century IMO.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    There is a lot of diversity in the mating approaches of different species. I don't think you really want to go down the learning lessons from nature road. It could lead to quite a dark place.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,145
    edited May 2023

    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    It's about betrayal of someone you love and care for deeply. That what's important to me.

    The trouble is it's challenging to remain absolutely faithful, 100%, to the same partner for your entire life when it's only human to be sexually attracted to other people. Sometimes strongly.

    Occasionally that bubble bursts, and then it gets complicated.
    Affairs are human, and caused by human frailty. Abandonment bothers me more.

    I absolutely loathe the philosophy behind a film like The Bridges of Madison County, which treats adultery as liberating, and sticking with one’s spouse as the wrong choice.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    There is a lot of diversity in the mating approaches of different species. I don't think you really want to go down the learning lessons from nature road. It could lead to quite a dark place.
    And the so-called "pair bonds" so beloved of Victorian moralists conceal a dark abyss.

    See the classic work on dunnocks (aka hedge sparrow) by Nick Davies.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,796
    edited May 2023
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    It's about betrayal of someone you love and care for deeply. That what's important to me.

    The trouble is it's challenging to remain absolutely faithful, 100%, to the same partner for your entire life when it's only human to be sexually attracted to other people. Sometimes strongly.

    Occasionally that bubble bursts, and then it gets complicated.
    Yes. Marriage embraces contradictions because people are what they are. For me the central thing is that children are cared for by their natural parents under a promise to do so. Only marriage is a public undertaking to do this. The key is each person putting others ahead of themselves.

    As for all this '100%' and 'absolutely' stuff. Human nature isn't like that. That is as true for people who stay married for 65 years as those who marry 9 times in 15 years.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    viewcode said:

    But the story does seem to imply Schofield was allegedly involved with a much younger man, am I allowed to say that?

    The story is now in the public realm:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65729361
    Was this not public knowledge when he came out?
    Some much older man befriends much younger employee and eventually turns into a sexual relationship? There’s a word for that.
    Grooming.
    That's probably unfair. IIUC the other man was over the age of consent when he met him. Although he did abuse his work position and hurt his wife, he didn't actually break the criminal law. Happy to be corrected if I've missed something
    Students I teach at Uni are all over the age of consent too.
    Grooming is about abuse of power. His position as TV star vs young man making his way into TV is where I think this justifies grooming.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    On topic, the ghost of Olly Cromwell takes issue with the phrasing of ‘a new high’.

    But in all seriousness, it’s still a firm majority in favour, and I’d guess that a fair chunk of the minority are, like me, ‘soft republicans’ I.E. against the monarchy in principle but in practice not something to get too worked up about.

    Given His Royal Dryness Pervy Phil, Harry the egomaniac, a king who is markedly less popular than his mam and - I wouldn’t mind betting - the unpleasant treatment meted out to the republican protesters, it’s not surprising that support for the institution has slipped. Maybe more surprising that it hasn’t slipped further?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    It's about betrayal of someone you love and care for deeply. That what's important to me.

    The trouble is it's challenging to remain absolutely faithful, 100%, to the same partner for your entire life when it's only human to be sexually attracted to other people. Sometimes strongly.

    Occasionally that bubble bursts, and then it gets complicated.
    Yes. Marriage embraces contradictions because people are what they are. For me the central thing is that children are cared for by their natural parents under a promise to do so. Only marriage is a public undertaking to do this. The key is each person putting others ahead of themselves.

    As for all this '100%' and 'absolutely' stuff. Human nature isn't like that. That is as true for people who stay married for 65 years as those who marry 9 times in 15 years.
    I agree people are people some work it out some dont. There is a huge difference between a work contract and an agreement to live together forevermore contract
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360
    Sean_F said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
    I would be better off, financially.

    My wife is substantially better off than I am. I could leave her for another, and get 50% of our joint assets.

    That would be lawful, but certainly not just.
    You've got to speculate to accumulate.
    No one is telling sean he needs to divorce....however what if your wife becomes for example a heroin addict or takes a sword and runs it through you...should you still be expected to stay with them....only one of the above has happened to me with a girl I lived with and thought I knew
    Of course. No one should be required to remain in a marriage that has become hell.

    But, I’ve known too many men who’ve walked out, once their wives got too old for them, or wanted children.

    I fear I have strong views on the subject.
    I agree but it cannot in a modern society be legislated for, or brought about by social pressure. In an individualist age, individuals are invited to do the right thing individually. It won't always happen.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    That interview seems even stranger in hindsight.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited May 2023
    viewcode said:

    But the story does seem to imply Schofield was allegedly involved with a much younger man, am I allowed to say that?

    The story is now in the public realm:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65729361
    Was this not public knowledge when he came out?
    Some much older man befriends much younger employee and eventually turns into a sexual relationship? There’s a word for that.
    Grooming.
    That's probably unfair. IIUC the other man was over the age of consent when he met him. Although he did abuse his work position and hurt his wife, he didn't actually break the criminal law. Happy to be corrected if I've missed something

    I do think there’s something in the complaint that is sometimes aired by (mainly) women, that the gay marriage/gay rights, “yippee” patting ourselves on the back thingy that we did in the last decade or so, and a pile of people came out and divorced/left their partners, well it left their partners feeling a bit lost and unfairly treated.

    Liberal society congratulated the newly out people (some of whom apparently had no moral framework at all, when seeking out new partners) and kinda forgot about the ex-partners left behind who were left to figure out wtf happened to their life.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    algarkirk said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
    I would be better off, financially.

    My wife is substantially better off than I am. I could leave her for another, and get 50% of our joint assets.

    That would be lawful, but certainly not just.
    You've got to speculate to accumulate.
    No one is telling sean he needs to divorce....however what if your wife becomes for example a heroin addict or takes a sword and runs it through you...should you still be expected to stay with them....only one of the above has happened to me with a girl I lived with and thought I knew
    Of course. No one should be required to remain in a marriage that has become hell.

    But, I’ve known too many men who’ve walked out, once their wives got too old for them, or wanted children.

    I fear I have strong views on the subject.
    I agree but it cannot in a modern society be legislated for, or brought about by social pressure. In an individualist age, individuals are invited to do the right thing individually. It won't always happen.
    Should also be noted that the prime movers for divorce are generally woman percentage wise
  • GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    True, and from all accounts he does not seem a particularly likeable human being.

    There is also something distasteful about a much older man who had direct authority over his 'lover' having such an affair. Yes, it happened in the past but that didn't make it right.

    Having said that, just leave him alone now. He has admitted it, his career is in ruins.

    Although I bet WeBuyAnyCar.com wish they hadn't released this YouTube video with the (in)famous phrase "At WeBuyAnyCar.com, we live by one simple philosophy. Be more like Philip Schofield"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3LRFLkR3W8

    As well as the phrase "So Quick. So Simple. So Schofield"...
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    ping said:

    viewcode said:

    But the story does seem to imply Schofield was allegedly involved with a much younger man, am I allowed to say that?

    The story is now in the public realm:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65729361
    Was this not public knowledge when he came out?
    Some much older man befriends much younger employee and eventually turns into a sexual relationship? There’s a word for that.
    Grooming.
    That's probably unfair. IIUC the other man was over the age of consent when he met him. Although he did abuse his work position and hurt his wife, he didn't actually break the criminal law. Happy to be corrected if I've missed something

    I do think there’s something in the complaint that is sometimes aired by (mainly) women, that the gay marriage/gay rights, “yippee” patting ourselves on the back thingy that we did in the last decade or so, and a pile of people came out and divorced/left their partners, well it left their partners feeling a bit lost and unfairly treated.

    Liberal society congratulated the newly out people (some of whom apparently had no moral framework at all) and kinda forgot about the partners left behind who were left to figure out wtf happened to their life.
    This is true, but is not in itself an argument against gay rights; indeed the partner would likely have been with a completely different person had law and society been different sooner.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Ghedebrav said:

    ping said:

    viewcode said:

    But the story does seem to imply Schofield was allegedly involved with a much younger man, am I allowed to say that?

    The story is now in the public realm:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65729361
    Was this not public knowledge when he came out?
    Some much older man befriends much younger employee and eventually turns into a sexual relationship? There’s a word for that.
    Grooming.
    That's probably unfair. IIUC the other man was over the age of consent when he met him. Although he did abuse his work position and hurt his wife, he didn't actually break the criminal law. Happy to be corrected if I've missed something

    I do think there’s something in the complaint that is sometimes aired by (mainly) women, that the gay marriage/gay rights, “yippee” patting ourselves on the back thingy that we did in the last decade or so, and a pile of people came out and divorced/left their partners, well it left their partners feeling a bit lost and unfairly treated.

    Liberal society congratulated the newly out people (some of whom apparently had no moral framework at all) and kinda forgot about the partners left behind who were left to figure out wtf happened to their life.
    This is true, but is not in itself an argument against gay rights; indeed the partner would likely have been with a completely different person had law and society been different sooner.
    Sure, I don’t disagree with any of that.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    ping said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    ping said:

    viewcode said:

    But the story does seem to imply Schofield was allegedly involved with a much younger man, am I allowed to say that?

    The story is now in the public realm:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-65729361
    Was this not public knowledge when he came out?
    Some much older man befriends much younger employee and eventually turns into a sexual relationship? There’s a word for that.
    Grooming.
    That's probably unfair. IIUC the other man was over the age of consent when he met him. Although he did abuse his work position and hurt his wife, he didn't actually break the criminal law. Happy to be corrected if I've missed something

    I do think there’s something in the complaint that is sometimes aired by (mainly) women, that the gay marriage/gay rights, “yippee” patting ourselves on the back thingy that we did in the last decade or so, and a pile of people came out and divorced/left their partners, well it left their partners feeling a bit lost and unfairly treated.

    Liberal society congratulated the newly out people (some of whom apparently had no moral framework at all) and kinda forgot about the partners left behind who were left to figure out wtf happened to their life.
    This is true, but is not in itself an argument against gay rights; indeed the partner would likely have been with a completely different person had law and society been different sooner.
    Sure, I don’t disagree with any of that.
    There were far too many that married for cover its true. Men werent the only culprits though
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    True, and from all accounts he does not seem a particularly likeable human being.

    There is also something distasteful about a much older man who had direct authority over his 'lover' having such an affair. Yes, it happened in the past but that didn't make it right.

    Having said that, just leave him alone now. He has admitted it, his career is in ruins.

    Indeed! Lets hope it doesn't end up in another Caroline Flack type tragedy...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Sean_F said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
    I would be better off, financially.

    My wife is substantially better off than I am. I could leave her for another, and get 50% of our joint assets.

    That would be lawful, but certainly not just.
    You've got to speculate to accumulate.
    No one is telling sean he needs to divorce....however what if your wife becomes for example a heroin addict or takes a sword and runs it through you...should you still be expected to stay with them....only one of the above has happened to me with a girl I lived with and thought I knew
    Of course. No one should be required to remain in a marriage that has become hell.

    But, I’ve known too many men who’ve walked out, once their wives got too old for them, or wanted children.

    I fear I have strong views on the subject.
    It seems fair enough for people to think marriage is a solemn committment which requires work and effort, not to be cast aside lightly, without going the Danny Kruger route on these things. I'm not really sure how no fault actually makes things worse, since people simply walking out is not reliant on obtaining a divorce.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    It's about betrayal of someone you love and care for deeply. That what's important to me.

    The trouble is it's challenging to remain absolutely faithful, 100%, to the same partner for your entire life when it's only human to be sexually attracted to other people. Sometimes strongly.

    Occasionally that bubble bursts, and then it gets complicated.
    Yes. Marriage embraces contradictions because people are what they are. For me the central thing is that children are cared for by their natural parents under a promise to do so. Only marriage is a public undertaking to do this. The key is each person putting others ahead of themselves.

    As for all this '100%' and 'absolutely' stuff. Human nature isn't like that. That is as true for people who stay married for 65 years as those who marry 9 times in 15 years.
    I'm happily married now to a person with whom that is true, but my first marriage was an absolute trainwreck for reasons related broadly to that not being the case.

    I don't like to admit to failure, so admitting that the marriage had failed, and that I couldn't fix it, was very difficult. And I'm aware that I will be judged for that failure, because of course people who weren't involved in the marriage will wonder about what the failure of my first marriage says about my commitment to another person. I mean I judge my own Dad pretty harshly for the failure of his marriage to my Mum, so I know people won't be able to stop themselves from wondering about what the truth of the matter was.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    edited May 2023

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    It genuinely was well handled, having seen the clip again the other day. It would have been very easy to get angry or bluster, but he stayed firm and serious without giving in to the absurd scenario Schofield was presenting - he clearly thought it was an awesome gotcha moment.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,153
    edited May 2023

    Once Charles screws up tyere

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    He did actually. What Schofiled and This Morning did on that interview was disgraceful. Dave handled it great (as he tended to do with most things... But then he could also have the most bizarre screw up - like HMQ purrrrrrrring down the phone)

    Dave could have been one of the all time great PMs since WWII but there were just too many screw ups and too many risks taken that in the end he ran out of road.

    A shame.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    algarkirk said:

    Farooq said:

    Many successful species have "pair bonds", which are equivalent in many ways to human marriages. Presumably pair bonds evolved, and have persisted, because they make it more likely that healthy offspring will be produced, that parents will invest in their offspring, rather than abandoning them.

    I think we should learn from those successes, and make marriage rules that are best for children.

    Marriage isn't (just) about children. It's never been just about children. We should broadly let people do what they want if they aren't hurting anybody.
    It's about betrayal of someone you love and care for deeply. That what's important to me.

    The trouble is it's challenging to remain absolutely faithful, 100%, to the same partner for your entire life when it's only human to be sexually attracted to other people. Sometimes strongly.

    Occasionally that bubble bursts, and then it gets complicated.
    Yes. Marriage embraces contradictions because people are what they are. For me the central thing is that children are cared for by their natural parents under a promise to do so. Only marriage is a public undertaking to do this. The key is each person putting others ahead of themselves.

    As for all this '100%' and 'absolutely' stuff. Human nature isn't like that. That is as true for people who stay married for 65 years as those who marry 9 times in 15 years.
    I'm happily married now to a person with whom that is true, but my first marriage was an absolute trainwreck for reasons related broadly to that not being the case.

    I don't like to admit to failure, so admitting that the marriage had failed, and that I couldn't fix it, was very difficult. And I'm aware that I will be judged for that failure, because of course people who weren't involved in the marriage will wonder about what the failure of my first marriage says about my commitment to another person. I mean I judge my own Dad pretty harshly for the failure of his marriage to my Mum, so I know people won't be able to stop themselves from wondering about what the truth of the matter was.
    You did not fail and anyone telling you did is not a friend, nor should you be judged for it. No one knows for sure what happens in a marriage, yes they wil wonder but frankly none of their business....if you dont know dont apportion blame
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    GIN1138 said:

    Once Charles screws up tyere

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    He did actually. What Schofiled and This Morning did on that interview was disgraceful. Dave handled it great (as he tended to do with most things... But then he could also have the most bizarre screw up (like HMQ purrrrrrrring down the phone)

    Well, he wasn't planning to be overheard on that one. I've often wondered if, between friendly nations, Heads of Government can get pretty darn open with one another - it's not many people who know what their lives are like.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
    I would be better off, financially.

    My wife is substantially better off than I am. I could leave her for another, and get 50% of our joint assets.

    That would be lawful, but certainly not just.
    You've got to speculate to accumulate.
    No one is telling sean he needs to divorce....however what if your wife becomes for example a heroin addict or takes a sword and runs it through you...should you still be expected to stay with them....only one of the above has happened to me with a girl I lived with and thought I knew
    I was joking.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    GIN1138 said:

    Once Charles screws up tyere

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    He did actually. What Schofiled and This Morning did on that interview was disgraceful. Dave handled it great (as he tended to do with most things... But then he could also have the most bizarre screw up - like HMQ purrrrrrrring down the phone)

    Dave could have been one of the all time great PMs since WWII but there were just too many screw ups and too many risks taken that in the end he ran out of road.

    A shame.
    Took a gamble on the EU and lost, not targeted enough on some cuts, and some other stuff, but if you set the EU stuff to one side (he did tell us not to do it), he was decent. I appreciate most cannot put it aside.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848

    Pagan2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    EPG said:

    Sean_F said:

    darkage said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And in the US:

    The Vatican also opposes 'no fault divorce' as do some socially conservative, pro traditional family Tory MPs.

    It is hardly that extreme a position
    People who wish to divorce, or have done, would presumably disagree
    They are entitled to their view, the strongly religious to theirs which is marriage should be between one man and one woman for life
    Divorce without grounds in quite new to Scotland, and very new to England.

    More or less all western systems required grounds, reasons, for divorce until recently.

    Texas is entitled to take its own view, and is accountable to Texas voters.

    Are they by the way going to make it harder for women than for me? (Which the Old Testament does). I suspect that's why Jesus taught against the Old Testament line.

    Most sane people would like divorce (like abortion) to be legal and rare. I doubt if this can be legislated for even in texas.
    Marriage means different things to different people. Trying to enforce an essentially religious idea of marriage on a disinterested and largely non-religious population is a completely hopeless cause. The 'no fault' rules are reflective of the worldview of an atomised society.
    I don’t think there’s anything especially religious about the view that spouses should take their sworn obligations to each other very seriously. No fault divorce conflicts with that.

    It says quite a bit about us, as a society, and nothing good, that breach of a commercial contract attracts a greater legal penalty than breach of one’s marriage vows.

    What is the appropriate legal penalty? Somewhere below cutting off hands, but maybe a short term in prison for the unspeakable crime of going off your partner?
    Damages.
    Isn't divorce pretty financially ruinous though?

    I'm fairly sure I'd lose 50% of my assets if I divorced, whilst retaining high childcare costs and responsibilities. One assumes I'd be punted out the main family home.

    I'd certainly be worse off.
    I would be better off, financially.

    My wife is substantially better off than I am. I could leave her for another, and get 50% of our joint assets.

    That would be lawful, but certainly not just.
    You've got to speculate to accumulate.
    No one is telling sean he needs to divorce....however what if your wife becomes for example a heroin addict or takes a sword and runs it through you...should you still be expected to stay with them....only one of the above has happened to me with a girl I lived with and thought I knew
    I was joking.
    shrugs its a serious issue people dont generally split without serious issues
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    He was virtually deified for coming out as gay, and his poor wife barely got a look in.

    The consistent pattern of behaviour with him is he's a perennial liar.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,848
    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Once Charles screws up tyere

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    He did actually. What Schofiled and This Morning did on that interview was disgraceful. Dave handled it great (as he tended to do with most things... But then he could also have the most bizarre screw up - like HMQ purrrrrrrring down the phone)

    Dave could have been one of the all time great PMs since WWII but there were just too many screw ups and too many risks taken that in the end he ran out of road.

    A shame.
    Took a gamble on the EU and lost, not targeted enough on some cuts, and some other stuff, but if you set the EU stuff to one side (he did tell us not to do it), he was decent. I appreciate most cannot put it aside.
    Cameron was not a great pm he had no vision he just thought he might be quite good at it....he was fucking wrong
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Jeremy Hunt proposing to use GP surgery patients to test drugs and fund the health service.

    Patients are cheaper than rats apparently.

    https://twitter.com/alanvibe/status/1662007863336747008
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,303
    FF43 said:

    Jeremy Hunt proposing to use GP surgery patients to test drugs and fund the health service.

    Patients are cheaper than rats apparently.

    https://twitter.com/alanvibe/status/1662007863336747008

    It’s how we came up with the Covid vaccines.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,796
    [deleted]
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Farooq said:

    I havent claimed to be the top 90% is one of my all-time favourite self owns. I really, honestly laughed out loud.

    because you are a drooling idiot your village is wondering where you are
    Can I be up next, use your best insult
    We have traded insults back and forth....when I have ever claimed though that I am more intelligent than most or earn more than most or richer than most. How does that suddenly translate into claiming I am not in the top 90% to indicate that I am higher than that? Which is what the other poster is implying. Yes more politically aware than most and I think that applies to most that post here because the majority of the country never thinks about politics.

    Sorry not to call you anything and disappoint you
    Dear Dear is it attack Pagan day
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,281

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    He was virtually deified for coming out as gay, and his poor wife barely got a look in.

    The consistent pattern of behaviour with him is he's a perennial liar.
    Worse, he's a pisspoor presenter, and always was.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,303
    I went to America, went to a horse show, and I saw a horse that glowed in the dark.

    I think it was rodeo-active.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    FF43 said:

    Jeremy Hunt proposing to use GP surgery patients to test drugs and fund the health service.

    Patients are cheaper than rats apparently.

    https://twitter.com/alanvibe/status/1662007863336747008

    Those against animal testing would probably be supportive of that idea. Who cares about humans anyway?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    GIN1138 said:

    Once Charles screws up tyere

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    He did actually. What Schofiled and This Morning did on that interview was disgraceful. Dave handled it great (as he tended to do with most things... But then he could also have the most bizarre screw up - like HMQ purrrrrrrring down the phone)

    Dave could have been one of the all time great PMs since WWII but there were just too many screw ups and too many risks taken that in the end he ran out of road.

    A shame.
    He could have been great if it weren't for the total screw ups... Hmm. I admit I did think he was quite good point at one point. Personable and moderate. Being an empty vessel is what told in the end. We always knew that but somehow ignored it. There's no there there with Cameron.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    True, and from all accounts he does not seem a particularly likeable human being.

    There is also something distasteful about a much older man who had direct authority over his 'lover' having such an affair. Yes, it happened in the past but that didn't make it right.

    Having said that, just leave him alone now. He has admitted it, his career is in ruins.

    Indeed! Lets hope it doesn't end up in another Caroline Flack type tragedy...
    He is a jumped up fcukwit, a vain pompous clown. He deserves all he gets.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,576
    edited May 2023
    GIN1138 said:

    Once Charles screws up tyere

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    He did actually. What Schofiled and This Morning did on that interview was disgraceful. Dave handled it great (as he tended to do with most things... But then he could also have the most bizarre screw up - like HMQ purrrrrrrring down the phone)

    Dave could have been one of the all time great PMs since WWII but there were just too many screw ups and too many risks taken that in the end he ran out of road.

    A shame.
    David Cameron could not have been one of our greatest Prime Ministers. It is not even a matter of screw-ups. In his time as LotO, the Conservatives were working for years on new policies so they could hit the ground running, yet when it came to it, no-one in the Cabinet knew WTF Lansley was up to with his NHS changes, and IDS's Universal Benefit was undermined by the Chancellor.

    Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. He lost Europe. He almost lost Scotland.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,281
    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Once Charles screws up tyere

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    He did actually. What Schofiled and This Morning did on that interview was disgraceful. Dave handled it great (as he tended to do with most things... But then he could also have the most bizarre screw up - like HMQ purrrrrrrring down the phone)

    Dave could have been one of the all time great PMs since WWII but there were just too many screw ups and too many risks taken that in the end he ran out of road.

    A shame.
    Took a gamble oscore n the EU and lost, not targeted enough on some cuts, and some other stuff, but if you set the EU stuff to one side (he did tell us not to do it), he was decent. I appreciate most cannot put it aside.
    I liked him, but when you look at record he has to finish fairly well down the league table.

    He has to take a large chunk of responsibility for the Great EU FU. He did of course score some wins. Gay Marriage will go down to his eternal credit, but generally he was a bit 'meh' at best.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Once Charles screws up tyere

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    He did actually. What Schofiled and This Morning did on that interview was disgraceful. Dave handled it great (as he tended to do with most things... But then he could also have the most bizarre screw up - like HMQ purrrrrrrring down the phone)

    Dave could have been one of the all time great PMs since WWII but there were just too many screw ups and too many risks taken that in the end he ran out of road.

    A shame.
    Took a gamble on the EU and lost, not targeted enough on some cuts, and some other stuff, but if you set the EU stuff to one side (he did tell us not to do it), he was decent. I appreciate most cannot put it aside.
    Cameron was not a great pm he had no vision he just thought he might be quite good at it....he was fucking wrong
    Hug a Tory :lol:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,578

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    My boy Dave handled it so well.
    Dave is an ardent monarchist!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,329

    GIN1138 said:

    Re. Phillip Schofield it's hard to feel much sympathy for him given what he did in that interview with David Cameron back around 2012.

    As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around...

    He was virtually deified for coming out as gay, and his poor wife barely got a look in.

    The consistent pattern of behaviour with him is he's a perennial liar.
    Talk about his coming out reminds me of Barry Humphries' appearance on This Morning.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j05aITNM4qo
This discussion has been closed.