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So Moggsy admits that voter ID WAS Tory gerrynandering – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited May 2023 in General
So Moggsy admits that voter ID WAS Tory gerrynandering – politicalbetting.com

Don’t want to go over the top, but this is absolutely jaw-dropping. Someone who was in the cabinet when legislation on voter ID was agreed and went through parliament acknowledges it WAS an attempt to gerrymander the elections https://t.co/onD8iPUsJO

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,746
    It is quite refreshing to hear a politician telling the truth. Mogg should at least get some credit for that.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,746
    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    Astonishing that no one realised before it was too late.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Not that it makes this okay, but let's not forget this:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/extending-the-deadline-to-register-to-vote-for-the-eu-referendum-statement

    Minister for Cabinet Office, Matt Hancock, said:

    Following discussions with the Electoral Commission and strong cross-party support expressed in the House of Commons, we will introduce secondary legislation to extend the deadline for voter registration until midnight tomorrow.

    Having taken the decision today, we think it is right to extend to 23.59 on Thursday 9 June, to allow people who have not yet registered, the time to get the message that registration is still open and get themselves registered.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    You don't need to be a genius to realise older people are less likely to have photo ID.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    edited May 2023
    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Heathener said:

    Spent the day hiking on Dartmoor after working the weekend. Bliss.

    There is only one Conservative I fear fighting against at the next General Election and his name is Boris Johnson.

    The guy is a shit but that's part of the point.

    Anyone other than him, it's a Labour landslide.

    I have a suspicion Johnson will replace Sunak in the next 12 months if the polls continue to show a 15 to 20 point Labour lead.
    The switcheroo is becoming inevitable isn’t it. It’s 2019 all over again.

    Even “Labour landslide nailed on” Heathener is now qualifying it with “except if Boris Johnson is leader.”

    When all that’s left (the moment will be after Sunak’s damp squib of a party conference) is to press the Black Swan button, of course they will press the button.

    The problem Labour and Lib Dem PBers have, quite simply, in their hatred of Boris they don’t understand how or why he appeals. The cold water to chuck in their faces, the hint, is it’s got nothing to do with the real Boris Johnson. It’s to do with how he is imagined. Like Mrs Moore in the passage to India. Or like the anti democracy bloodthirsty psychopath Oliver Cromwell, who people think was a good guy and happy to use the b******* as their avatar. Or people thinking Thomas Moor was the nice bloke in that play.
    My dislike of Bozo is that he's a lying crook with less morals than an alley cat on heat.

    But I don't think it's worth thinking about him until the Standards committee recommend their punishment and the Tory party is forced to make a painful decision.

    It’s a very tricky decision for Sunak as well, when Standards committee report. No whip on recommended punishment? How does he cast his own vote? Whip a 10day ban can be seen as Rishi no different than Pontius Pilate washing his hands.

    And what if the punishment is short of the 10days and recall petition, a mere slap on the knuckles for the getting it wrong Boris already admitted to? Atonement?

    Seen to survive blows that don’t finish you in politics, just leaves you looking strong and in place to strike back doesn’t it? It could play out like Lua being released from jail.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,087
    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    Astonishing that no one realised before it was too late.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the rigging scheme actually DID have the desired effect, and Rees-Mogg is relying on misinformation through anecdata to draw his conclusions.

    I'm sure I read and posted some other research on this a couple of weeks back which suggested that the rigging scheme was likely to disproportionately affect low income voters who were more likely to back Labour. Tories who think it backfired may be forming that opinion through hearing the complaints of small numbers of wealthy older people - the population segment that accounts for the bulk of their party membership, and the only group (save for the very rich) that they either listen to or care about.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    Only if the Geordies can investigate the equivalent Starmer scandal.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    With at least the same rigor the Met investigated the Abba Party?

    Some PBers will be along in a moment pleading with plod to investigate Starmer's suggestion that the voting age could be lowered after consultation.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    That’s how Mogg came across to me too. Votes didn’t go well down in his part of the world, dairy cow county, he may have local party members angry it didn’t work in their favour with constituents upset, so makes decision to help get it scrapped.

    You would think though the first place to get things scrapped is behind the scenes? To do this in public makes me think voices raised behind the scenes have been met with much opposition and over ruled by the majority, or most senior people who want to keep it in place. If I was betting I would back the Tories keeping it in place for the general election.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    I wish JRM fans would explain this.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585
    Miriam Cates. She makes Braverman appear like Michael Foot
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,151

    There's also the matter of how Mad Nad, JRM etc. convince 180 odd MPs to no confidence Rishi even if they manage to get enough letters in...

    Keep on pointing Sunak is a loser.
    If the alternative is Boris though...
    They are hoping Tory MPs remember 2019 rather than the fact Boris Johnson was ousted for putting a known sexual predator into a position of authority then lying about it.

    If Boris Johnson makes the final two he wins.
    Yeah but that's assuming they can oust Rishi... I ultimately suspect he'll survive because enough Blue Wall MPs concerned about the Lib Dems are terrified about what Boris 2.0 will mean for their prospects of holding onto their seats.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    darkage said:

    It is quite refreshing to hear a politician telling the truth. Mogg should at least get some credit for that.

    He is simply playing his role as a pawn in the Boris v Rishi and Keir game. Not sure that deserves any credit.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968

    I wish JRM fans would explain this.

    I'm still waiting for JRM and his fans explain his Ukraine comments because I remember how France & Germany stopped us liberating Iraq in 2003.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    tlg86 said:

    Not that it makes this okay, but let's not forget this:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/extending-the-deadline-to-register-to-vote-for-the-eu-referendum-statement

    Minister for Cabinet Office, Matt Hancock, said:

    Following discussions with the Electoral Commission and strong cross-party support expressed in the House of Commons, we will introduce secondary legislation to extend the deadline for voter registration until midnight tomorrow.

    Having taken the decision today, we think it is right to extend to 23.59 on Thursday 9 June, to allow people who have not yet registered, the time to get the message that registration is still open and get themselves registered.

    Yes, that is another example. Ironically this was to try and reverse the effect of Cameron and Osborne's earlier gerrymandering operation that involved getting those pesky kids off the electoral registers in time for boundary reviews.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926

    I wish JRM fans would explain this.

    JRM was warning against Labour's plans to rig the system by allowing EU citizens to vote.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968
    edited May 2023

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    edited May 2023
    Also Lord Cruddas saying the quiet bit out loud:

    “If Labour wins a big majority at the next election they will reduce the voting age to 16, they will abolish voter ID, and they will introduce proportional representation making it almost impossible for the Conservative Party to win an outright majority in the future,”

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    Not that it makes this okay, but let's not forget this:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/extending-the-deadline-to-register-to-vote-for-the-eu-referendum-statement

    Minister for Cabinet Office, Matt Hancock, said:

    Following discussions with the Electoral Commission and strong cross-party support expressed in the House of Commons, we will introduce secondary legislation to extend the deadline for voter registration until midnight tomorrow.

    Having taken the decision today, we think it is right to extend to 23.59 on Thursday 9 June, to allow people who have not yet registered, the time to get the message that registration is still open and get themselves registered.

    Yes, that is another example. Ironically this was to try and reverse the effect of Cameron and Osborne's earlier gerrymandering operation that involved getting those pesky kids off the electoral registers in time for boundary reviews.
    Yes, it was one of many hilarious moments during the referendum. I recently read Craig Oliver's book on the referendum and it was interesting to read what worried him. That tax-payer funded booklet we were sent worried him a lot as he thought it was really pushing boundaries of what's acceptable.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
  • Smart51Smart51 Posts: 47
    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    Worse than that, not only is JRM not bothered about rigging elections, he's quite openly admitting it. It is brazen.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,534
    edited May 2023

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Heathener said:

    Spent the day hiking on Dartmoor after working the weekend. Bliss.

    There is only one Conservative I fear fighting against at the next General Election and his name is Boris Johnson.

    The guy is a shit but that's part of the point.

    Anyone other than him, it's a Labour landslide.

    I have a suspicion Johnson will replace Sunak in the next 12 months if the polls continue to show a 15 to 20 point Labour lead.
    The switcheroo is becoming inevitable isn’t it. It’s 2019 all over again.

    Even “Labour landslide nailed on” Heathener is now qualifying it with “except if Boris Johnson is leader.”

    When all that’s left (the moment will be after Sunak’s damp squib of a party conference) is to press the Black Swan button, of course they will press the button.

    The problem Labour and Lib Dem PBers have, quite simply, in their hatred of Boris they don’t understand how or why he appeals. The cold water to chuck in their faces, the hint, is it’s got nothing to do with the real Boris Johnson. It’s to do with how he is imagined. Like Mrs Moore in the passage to India. Or like the anti democracy bloodthirsty psychopath Oliver Cromwell, who people think was a good guy and happy to use the b******* as their avatar. Or people thinking Thomas Moor was the nice bloke in that play.
    My dislike of Bozo is that he's a lying crook with less morals than an alley cat on heat.

    But I don't think it's worth thinking about him until the Standards committee recommend their punishment and the Tory party is forced to make a painful decision.

    It’s a very tricky decision for Sunak as well, when Standards committee report. No whip on recommended punishment? How does he cast his own vote? Whip a 10day ban can be seen as Rishi no different than Pontius Pilate washing his hands.

    And what if the punishment is short of the 10days and recall petition, a mere slap on the knuckles for the getting it wrong Boris already admitted to? Atonement?

    Seen to survive blows that don’t finish you in politics, just leaves you looking strong and in place to strike back doesn’t it? It could play out like Lua being released from jail.
    I expect they will find Johnson recklessly misled Parliament and any sanction will just be a slap on the wrist . The Tories on the panel although not really Johnson cult members won’t want to cause a meltdown in the party . Looking at the evidence there’s no paper trail or in this age social media trail that confirms he knew he was lying . His past behaviour as a pathological liar alone is not enough to find he willfully misled parliament. In terms of any Commons vote for any minor punishment that could be un comfortable for Sunak . Will he be out of the country ? And of course those voting to punish him will have the deranged Bozo cult after them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    "National Socialism" is trending on twitter for some reason.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    pigeon said:

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    Astonishing that no one realised before it was too late.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the rigging scheme actually DID have the desired effect, and Rees-Mogg is relying on misinformation through anecdata to draw his conclusions.

    I'm sure I read and posted some other research on this a couple of weeks back which suggested that the rigging scheme was likely to disproportionately affect low income voters who were more likely to back Labour. Tories who think it backfired may be forming that opinion through hearing the complaints of small numbers of wealthy older people - the population segment that accounts for the bulk of their party membership, and the only group (save for the very rich) that they either listen to or care about.
    Thinking Conservatives warned before the locals that photo ID might harm Tory prospects in red wall seats by disenfranchising "left out" voters who'd come to the party for Boris and Brexit.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2023
    pigeon said:

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    Astonishing that no one realised before it was too late.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the rigging scheme actually DID have the desired effect, and Rees-Mogg is relying on misinformation through anecdata to draw his conclusions.

    I'm sure I read and posted some other research on this a couple of weeks back which suggested that the rigging scheme was likely to disproportionately affect low income voters who were more likely to back Labour. Tories who think it backfired may be forming that opinion through hearing the complaints of small numbers of wealthy older people - the population segment that accounts for the bulk of their party membership, and the only group (save for the very rich) that they either listen to or care about.
    The problem is lots of wealthy older people voted LD or Independent at the local elections in protest at new housing plans in their Tory controlled local authority areas, especially in the South, as did many richer voters more generally. Even if those voters come back to the Tories at the general election to try and keep Labour out of No 10 and their taxes and immigration down.

    In fact skilled white working class voters were the most likely to vote Tory on May 4th, indeed the few councils the Tories held then like Dartford, Harlow, Braintree, Basildon, Walsall and Dudley were filled with such voters. However the ID requirement would have made them much less likely to vote, while Nimby OAPs protest voting LD or Residents were not affected as they mainly voted by post.

    So Jacob is right, what might have been a 'cunning plan' by the Tories for the general election, ended up a Baldrick style 'cunning plan' disaster at the local elections as they lost control of councils across the Home Counties especially and over 1000 Tory councillors were gone

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,087

    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    That’s how Mogg came across to me too. Votes didn’t go well down in his part of the world, dairy cow county, he may have local party members angry it didn’t work in their favour with constituents upset, so makes decision to help get it scrapped.

    You would think though the first place to get things scrapped is behind the scenes? To do this in public makes me think voices raised behind the scenes have been met with much opposition and over ruled by the majority, or most senior people who want to keep it in place. If I was betting I would back the Tories keeping it in place for the general election.
    They'll reflect on the available numbers. Disenfranchisement of the elderly will benefit the Tories *IF* the people most likely to be affected are less well off oldies who don't own their own homes - and if the selective rules applicable to which forms of ID are acceptable are also helping to make it even less likely that the under 25s will bother to turn out than usual, then so much the better as far as the Government is concerned.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    pigeon said:

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    Astonishing that no one realised before it was too late.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the rigging scheme actually DID have the desired effect, and Rees-Mogg is relying on misinformation through anecdata to draw his conclusions.

    I'm sure I read and posted some other research on this a couple of weeks back which suggested that the rigging scheme was likely to disproportionately affect low income voters who were more likely to back Labour. Tories who think it backfired may be forming that opinion through hearing the complaints of small numbers of wealthy older people - the population segment that accounts for the bulk of their party membership, and the only group (save for the very rich) that they either listen to or care about.
    I think voter suppression probably did help the Tories a bit, but the baseline was so catastrophic, Mogg instead blames the results on unintended consequences.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,918
    Broken, sleazy, gerrymandering Tories!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    edited May 2023

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
    Have you ever killed a fox while wearing a kimono?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Impeding voters to exercise their franchise must be illegal. I would imagine there are loads of laws that could have been breached.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,087

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
    Presumably you reported your boy Dave to the police after he culled (can I used that word? :lol:) a load of people from the electoral roll?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
    Have you ever killed a fox while wearing a kimono?
    I've only killed one fox and I was wearing a suit.

    Ran over the poor thing.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968
    tlg86 said:

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
    Presumably you reported your boy Dave to the police after he culled (can I used that word? :lol:) a load of people from the electoral roll?
    That was fair based on previous fraudulent attempts.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585

    darkage said:

    It is quite refreshing to hear a politician telling the truth. Mogg should at least get some credit for that.

    He is simply playing his role as a pawn in the Boris v Rishi and Keir game. Not sure that deserves any credit.
    I don't believe he intended to be truthful. He merely dropped a bollock.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
    Have you ever killed a fox while wearing a kimono?
    I just naturally assumed Thursdays were kimono fox kill nights for everyone.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    The voter ID scheme was so incomprehensible when it comes to its alleged objective (*), that it was either utter incompetence or gerrymandering.

    Before this video, it was debatable which it was. JRW gives us an indication it was utter gerrymandering.

    The only (slight) issue I have is that I think JRW is a mendacious piece of excrement. If you don't think he tells the truth at the best of times, why now? But given the egregious voter ID scheme, I can set that issue to one side.

    (*) To reduce fraud.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,087
    FF43 said:

    pigeon said:

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    Astonishing that no one realised before it was too late.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the rigging scheme actually DID have the desired effect, and Rees-Mogg is relying on misinformation through anecdata to draw his conclusions.

    I'm sure I read and posted some other research on this a couple of weeks back which suggested that the rigging scheme was likely to disproportionately affect low income voters who were more likely to back Labour. Tories who think it backfired may be forming that opinion through hearing the complaints of small numbers of wealthy older people - the population segment that accounts for the bulk of their party membership, and the only group (save for the very rich) that they either listen to or care about.
    I think voter suppression probably did help the Tories a bit, but the baseline was so catastrophic, Mogg instead blames the results on unintended consequences.
    I suppose that it's possible that an organisation as utterly bereft of any sense of shame as the Conservative Party might contain senior figures who are less embarrassed at openly admitting to attempts to subvert democracy than they are to admit to being woefully unpopular.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,918

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
    Have you ever killed a fox while wearing a kimono?
    Have you ever seen a grown man naked?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
    Presumably you reported your boy Dave to the police after he culled (can I used that word? :lol:) a load of people from the electoral roll?
    That was fair based on previous fraudulent attempts.
    So why did Dave extend the deadline for registering to vote before the referendum?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,129
    edited May 2023
    TSE has gone full Jolyon

    Rees-Mogg’s moronic musings are worth nothing legally

    His idiocy might well cost the Tories further in their polling and their election chances, but there’s no way time will be wasted pursuing it to any court

    ETA obviously Jolyon might, but then QED
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
    Have you ever killed a fox while wearing a kimono?
    I just naturally assumed Thursdays were kimono fox kill nights for everyone.
    It's not the fifteenth...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cAIHJ6f6zQ
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,572
    Mogg's claim that the voter ID requirement helped Labour in the locals is utterly at odds with the facts. Survation's poll of 24th to 28th April found that 5.8% of those intending to vote Labour in the locals did not possess a suitable form of ID. Likewise 5.1% of Greens. Compared to only 2.4% of Conservatives and 1.3% of Lib Dems. It was a significant and successful attempt to suppress the Labour vote.

    So does he really believe his own claim? Or does he have an ulterior motive, if so what on earth is it?

    Still, in terms of an admission of guilt it's very good of him to let the cat out of the bag.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,087

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    darkage said:

    It is quite refreshing to hear a politician telling the truth. Mogg should at least get some credit for that.

    He is simply playing his role as a pawn in the Boris v Rishi and Keir game. Not sure that deserves any credit.
    I don't believe he intended to be truthful. He merely dropped a bollock.
    So the Brexit press lead with something Starmer said back in 2020 simultaneously in 2023 and then JRM pipes up to have a pop at the Tory leadership a week after Sunak loses an election bigly.

    Nothing to see here, not at all......Boris smirking in the background.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    What Mogg said today was one of the most stupid statements by a politician I can recall.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,168

    Mogg's claim that the voter ID requirement helped Labour in the locals is utterly at odds with the facts. Survation's poll of 24th to 28th April found that 5.8% of those intending to vote Labour in the locals did not possess a suitable form of ID. Likewise 5.1% of Greens. Compared to only 2.4% of Conservatives and 1.3% of Lib Dems. It was a significant and successful attempt to suppress the Labour vote.

    So does he really believe his own claim? Or does he have an ulterior motive, if so what on earth is it?

    Still, in terms of an admission of guilt it's very good of him to let the cat out of the bag.

    Only 1.3% of LibDems. Ah, now everything becomes clear. The entire activity is really a LibDem conspiracy using the party’s strategically placed sleeper agents inside the Conservative Party.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,572

    Mogg's claim that the voter ID requirement helped Labour in the locals is utterly at odds with the facts. Survation's poll of 24th to 28th April found that 5.8% of those intending to vote Labour in the locals did not possess a suitable form of ID. Likewise 5.1% of Greens. Compared to only 2.4% of Conservatives and 1.3% of Lib Dems. It was a significant and successful attempt to suppress the Labour vote.

    So does he really believe his own claim? Or does he have an ulterior motive, if so what on earth is it?

    Still, in terms of an admission of guilt it's very good of him to let the cat out of the bag.

    PS. The link to the poll is at the bottom of this report. https://www.survation.com/great-expectation-management-will-labour-triumph-in-the-local-elections/
    See line 371 cols AJ to AT for GE and LE effects.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    pigeon said:

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
    Who do you fear more as the 4th female Tory PM? Suella Braverman or Kemi Badenoch?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,087
    pigeon said:

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
    It's a risk, but I think it's one I'm OK with. Compared to America, we have a fairer media (GB News exists, but it's reach is tiny), a fairer electoral system and nicer people.

    If the Conservatives do decide to go full on tonto in '25, I trust that the main effect will be to give Labour the 2029 election as a freebie. Which may be necessary, because the UK's problems are going to take time to fix.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585
    ...

    darkage said:

    It is quite refreshing to hear a politician telling the truth. Mogg should at least get some credit for that.

    He is simply playing his role as a pawn in the Boris v Rishi and Keir game. Not sure that deserves any credit.
    I don't believe he intended to be truthful. He merely dropped a bollock.
    So the Brexit press lead with something Starmer said back in 2020 simultaneously in 2023 and then JRM pipes up to have a pop at the Tory leadership a week after Sunak loses an election bigly.

    Nothing to see here, not at all......Boris smirking in the background.
    But it was Johnson who instigated the voter suppression caper in the first place. Richie Rich just nodded obligingly.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585

    pigeon said:

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
    Who do you fear more as the 4th female Tory PM? Suella Braverman or Kemi Badenoch?
    Cruella without a doubt. Badenoch doesn't have Braverman's guile and cunning.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,087

    pigeon said:

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
    Who do you fear more as the 4th female Tory PM? Suella Braverman or Kemi Badenoch?
    Cruella without a doubt. Badenoch doesn't have Braverman's guile and cunning.
    When push came to shove, Badenoch had enough grip on reality to kill the Brexit Shredder Bill. She deserves respect for that.

    It's probably killed her with the Conservative Right, but these things happen. They happen quite a lot, actually.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    ...

    darkage said:

    It is quite refreshing to hear a politician telling the truth. Mogg should at least get some credit for that.

    He is simply playing his role as a pawn in the Boris v Rishi and Keir game. Not sure that deserves any credit.
    I don't believe he intended to be truthful. He merely dropped a bollock.
    So the Brexit press lead with something Starmer said back in 2020 simultaneously in 2023 and then JRM pipes up to have a pop at the Tory leadership a week after Sunak loses an election bigly.

    Nothing to see here, not at all......Boris smirking in the background.
    But it was Johnson who instigated the voter suppression caper in the first place. Richie Rich just nodded obligingly.
    Details don't matter. Boris needs the govt to be discredited and collapse in the next six months or so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2023

    pigeon said:

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
    Many in the Conservative Party — and at least 3 here on PB — want to take their cues from the Republican Party’s descent into fascism. I’m not a natural Conservative Party supporter, but I think a functioning centre-right party is a common part of democracies and I think it is damaging for all of us, not just the Tories, if the Conservatives go down that route. Not in the first instance because I think they’d win power, but because they’d fail to operate as an effective Opposition.
    Except as I said earlier the Nationalist right can win, see Boris, Trump, Bolsonaro, Abbott, Meloni in Italy, Law and Justice in Poland, Netanyahu, Erdogan, Modi, even in some of the Nordic countries and Austria Nationalists hold the balance of power and Le Pen and her party got closer in France in 2022.

    Indeed I would argue in the current economic climate and with the culture wars and immigration debates the Nationalist right is more of a threat to the social democratic left than the libertarian right, maybe even than the traditional centre right
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,089

    Gerrymander = manipulation of GEOGRAPHIC boundaries (for example, legislative districts) for electoral advantage.

    This has been American definition of the word, invented in USA and named after an American politico for his contribution to the practice, for over 200 hundred years.

    WHY our British cousins have decided to expand meaning of gerrymander, to include (it seems) ANY manipulation of electoral process, is beyond me.

    Do any of you have a clue?

    My guess is quasi-ignorance combined with unalloyed laziness; that is, mis-users have heard of the word, but NOT what it actually means - and haven't bothered to find out.

    Or...words change their meaning over time and space via a number of different mechanisms including ignorance, common misuse, parody, adjacency of meaning, contextual changes. The effect can go so far as to invert sense.

    It's interesting how often people rail against these changes though. It is usually a hiding to nothing.

    I'm all for remembering the history of usage and etymology though.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    This National Conservatism Conference really is something else. If there's a concern that we import wokeness from the USA, there should be much more concern about this importation of US-funded evangelical right-wing nuttiness and, in particular, the appearance of several leading Tory MPs. I note, for example, that Wiki says Miriam Cates is an evangelical Christian. Is it the British Tea Party movement?

    If anybody's interested, I came across this article by John Hayes on Conservative Home. Scary stuff, I think. Even the Tory commenters mostly seem to think he's as mad as a box of frogs.

    https://conservativehome.com/2023/05/15/john-hayes-national-conservatism-can-help-the-government-deliver-on-the-promises-of-2019/
  • TresTres Posts: 2,163

    This National Conservatism Conference really is something else. If there's a concern that we import wokeness from the USA, there should be much more concern about this importation of US-funded evangelical right-wing nuttiness and, in particular, the appearance of several leading Tory MPs. I note, for example, that Wiki says Miriam Cates is an evangelical Christian. Is it the British Tea Party movement?

    If anybody's interested, I came across this article by John Hayes on Conservative Home. Scary stuff, I think. Even the Tory commenters mostly seem to think he's as mad as a box of frogs.

    https://conservativehome.com/2023/05/15/john-hayes-national-conservatism-can-help-the-government-deliver-on-the-promises-of-2019/

    more like the mad hatters party
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415

    Andy_JS said:

    "Braverman's immigration speech interrupted by protesters after Rees-Mogg heckled on stage

    Mr Rees-Mogg was moments into his speech when a protester warned of 'facism' before being hauled off stage by security."

    https://news.sky.com/story/jacob-rees-mogg-protester-storms-stage-during-speech-to-warn-of-fascism-12881437

    She handled that well.
    “Right… Anyone else?” 🙂

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_fbASHIMJc
    Anymore for anymore? Suella asked, with her great big power grin 😁

    So these were Extinct Rebellion shouting and yelling about fascism and in favour of open borders and against immigration restrictions?

    What PB didn’t take into account when you lost the argument against me on the policing of coronation protests, these “take it too far” hot heads could be members of more than one thing, couldn’t they? Republican protestors you support on Saturday, M25 sniffers you are screaming at on Monday when you are waiting hours for them to be cut from the road, picketing abortion clinics Wednesday, head glued to Grand National fences a few days later.

    Take the guy arrested for handing out personal alarms on the day of the coronation. What if he was ALSO in extinct rebellion too, and extinct rebellion forums were talking up using these alarms to frighten the kings horses? Still naff policing to keep a check on him that day?

    In the real world things are more nuanced, than many on PB trying to spin a point. So you are lucky to have me, slapping the cheeks of spin, and bringing forth the juices of nuance for the benefit of all. 😇
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,168
    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
    Many in the Conservative Party — and at least 3 here on PB — want to take their cues from the Republican Party’s descent into fascism. I’m not a natural Conservative Party supporter, but I think a functioning centre-right party is a common part of democracies and I think it is damaging for all of us, not just the Tories, if the Conservatives go down that route. Not in the first instance because I think they’d win power, but because they’d fail to operate as an effective Opposition.
    Except as I said earlier the Nationalist right can win, see Boris, Trump, Abbott, Meloni in Italy, Netanyahu, Erdogan, even in some of the Nordic countries and Austria Nationalists hold the balance of power and Le Pen and her party got closer in France in 2022.

    Indeed I would argue in the current economic climate and with the culture wars and immigration debates the Nationalist right is more of a threat to the social democratic left than the libertarian right, maybe even than the traditional centre right
    That’s why I said, “Not in the first instance…” I think Labour will win the next general election (outright majority or not quite, either way Starmer in No. 10). I think Labour are favourites for the election after too.

    But, yes, in the long run, could a nationalist, right-wing populist Conservative Party win an election in the UK at some point? Yes. I don’t think we’re the same as the US, Israel, Turkey, Austria or Italy. I like to think the populist right would find it harder in the UK, but maybe it would just have a different flavour (like a Pim Fortuyn rather than an Erdogan)? It is not an impossibility.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Andy_JS said:

    "National Socialism" is trending on twitter for some reason.

    I presume that's because of the Katharine Birbalsingh clip.

    Just the sort of thing Twitter would go into a delightful frenzy over.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968
    Andy_JS said:

    "National Socialism" is trending on twitter for some reason.

    I reckon it is something to the Scot Nats.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Mogg's claim that the voter ID requirement helped Labour in the locals is utterly at odds with the facts. Survation's poll of 24th to 28th April found that 5.8% of those intending to vote Labour in the locals did not possess a suitable form of ID. Likewise 5.1% of Greens. Compared to only 2.4% of Conservatives and 1.3% of Lib Dems. It was a significant and successful attempt to suppress the Labour vote.

    So does he really believe his own claim? Or does he have an ulterior motive, if so what on earth is it?

    Still, in terms of an admission of guilt it's very good of him to let the cat out of the bag.

    It certainly helped the LDs over the Tories then and the Tories lost lots of southern councils to the LDs or NOC
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,918

    pigeon said:

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
    Who do you fear more as the 4th female Tory PM? Suella Braverman or Kemi Badenoch?
    "Whoever wins, we lose!"
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 4,746

    This National Conservatism Conference really is something else. If there's a concern that we import wokeness from the USA, there should be much more concern about this importation of US-funded evangelical right-wing nuttiness and, in particular, the appearance of several leading Tory MPs. I note, for example, that Wiki says Miriam Cates is an evangelical Christian. Is it the British Tea Party movement?

    If anybody's interested, I came across this article by John Hayes on Conservative Home. Scary stuff, I think. Even the Tory commenters mostly seem to think he's as mad as a box of frogs.

    https://conservativehome.com/2023/05/15/john-hayes-national-conservatism-can-help-the-government-deliver-on-the-promises-of-2019/

    @Northern_Al
    Could you explain what part of this article you are scared about?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968

    pigeon said:

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
    Who do you fear more as the 4th female Tory PM? Suella Braverman or Kemi Badenoch?
    If I were Labour I'd be most worried about the Cambridge educated lawyer Suella Braverman.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    Point of order: it wasn't gerrymandering, but instead an attempt to shape the electorate.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,046

    This National Conservatism Conference really is something else. If there's a concern that we import wokeness from the USA, there should be much more concern about this importation of US-funded evangelical right-wing nuttiness and, in particular, the appearance of several leading Tory MPs. I note, for example, that Wiki says Miriam Cates is an evangelical Christian. Is it the British Tea Party movement?

    If anybody's interested, I came across this article by John Hayes on Conservative Home. Scary stuff, I think. Even the Tory commenters mostly seem to think he's as mad as a box of frogs.

    https://conservativehome.com/2023/05/15/john-hayes-national-conservatism-can-help-the-government-deliver-on-the-promises-of-2019/

    There aren't really Tory commenters on Conhome these days - there seems to be a rash of pro-EU astroturfers, presumably paid by somebody. Wouldn't set much store by it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968
    Leicester fans singing God Save The King and getting drowned out by the Liverpool fans singing Liverpool.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    rcs1000 said:

    Point of order: it wasn't gerrymandering, but instead an attempt to shape the electorate.

    It's the same in both cases though: an exercise in choosing who gets to vote, to your advantage.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,239
    edited May 2023
    mwadams said:

    Gerrymander = manipulation of GEOGRAPHIC boundaries (for example, legislative districts) for electoral advantage.

    This has been American definition of the word, invented in USA and named after an American politico for his contribution to the practice, for over 200 hundred years.

    WHY our British cousins have decided to expand meaning of gerrymander, to include (it seems) ANY manipulation of electoral process, is beyond me.

    Do any of you have a clue?

    My guess is quasi-ignorance combined with unalloyed laziness; that is, mis-users have heard of the word, but NOT what it actually means - and haven't bothered to find out.

    Or...words change their meaning over time and space via a number of different mechanisms including ignorance, common misuse, parody, adjacency of meaning, contextual changes. The effect can go so far as to invert sense.

    It's interesting how often people rail against these changes though. It is usually a hiding to nothing.

    I'm all for remembering the history of usage and etymology though.
    In case of gerrymander, hard (for me) to see what's positive about muddying up the meaning, to mean anything that the speaker WANTS it to mean?

    Reserve it for geographical fiddling, I say! AND note I'm the 21st-century Funk & Wagnalls . . .
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    nico679 said:

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Heathener said:

    Spent the day hiking on Dartmoor after working the weekend. Bliss.

    There is only one Conservative I fear fighting against at the next General Election and his name is Boris Johnson.

    The guy is a shit but that's part of the point.

    Anyone other than him, it's a Labour landslide.

    I have a suspicion Johnson will replace Sunak in the next 12 months if the polls continue to show a 15 to 20 point Labour lead.
    The switcheroo is becoming inevitable isn’t it. It’s 2019 all over again.

    Even “Labour landslide nailed on” Heathener is now qualifying it with “except if Boris Johnson is leader.”

    When all that’s left (the moment will be after Sunak’s damp squib of a party conference) is to press the Black Swan button, of course they will press the button.

    The problem Labour and Lib Dem PBers have, quite simply, in their hatred of Boris they don’t understand how or why he appeals. The cold water to chuck in their faces, the hint, is it’s got nothing to do with the real Boris Johnson. It’s to do with how he is imagined. Like Mrs Moore in the passage to India. Or like the anti democracy bloodthirsty psychopath Oliver Cromwell, who people think was a good guy and happy to use the b******* as their avatar. Or people thinking Thomas Moor was the nice bloke in that play.
    My dislike of Bozo is that he's a lying crook with less morals than an alley cat on heat.

    But I don't think it's worth thinking about him until the Standards committee recommend their punishment and the Tory party is forced to make a painful decision.

    It’s a very tricky decision for Sunak as well, when Standards committee report. No whip on recommended punishment? How does he cast his own vote? Whip a 10day ban can be seen as Rishi no different than Pontius Pilate washing his hands.

    And what if the punishment is short of the 10days and recall petition, a mere slap on the knuckles for the getting it wrong Boris already admitted to? Atonement?

    Seen to survive blows that don’t finish you in politics, just leaves you looking strong and in place to strike back doesn’t it? It could play out like Lua being released from jail.
    I expect they will find Johnson recklessly misled Parliament and any sanction will just be a slap on the wrist . The Tories on the panel although not really Johnson cult members won’t want to cause a meltdown in the party . Looking at the evidence there’s no paper trail or in this age social media trail that confirms he knew he was lying . His past behaviour as a pathological liar alone is not enough to find he willfully misled parliament. In terms of any Commons vote for any minor punishment that could be un comfortable for Sunak . Will he be out of the country ? And of course those voting to punish him will have the deranged Bozo cult after them.
    Absolutely agree. Especially the bit about the Boris Cult now knowing who’s wearing which armbands. The bit where I disagree, just a slap on Johnson’s knuckles would be easy for Sunak, be in Kyiv that day as you say - but if it’s a 10day ban to be voted on, that truly is difficult for Sunak and his business managers to steer a path through. There would be a debate first and all sort of passionate point scoring?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    pigeon said:

    Mogg's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

    Further proof that Oxford University is a complete dump.
    Theory One: This is the sort of jape that they all pulled down the Union in their happy Varsity days. It's all a game where the important thing is to win, not the consequences of actually governing. Like everything else they've done. Gits.

    Theory Two (possibly overthinking): NatCon isn't for 2023/4, it's rolling the pitch to take over the Conservatives after they lose. In which case, the more discredited the government is, the better.
    What really concerns me about the next few years is that there will indeed be a far right takeover of the Tory party, and whatever cabal of monsters ends up being installed by the fossil membership will have quite a good chance of returning to Government come the election after next. Trying to put the country back together is going to be a difficult task for the Labour Party, and I'm far from convinced that they are up to it.
    The takeover happened after Cameron ran away from the mess he made with Brexit. They will likely become even more extreme in opposition as happened after 97 and happened to Labour in the 80s.

    The first few years after a defeat is when the nutters start pushing the "We weren't pure enough" agenda and keep taking more and more crazy policy positions

    Situation Normal....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2023

    This National Conservatism Conference really is something else. If there's a concern that we import wokeness from the USA, there should be much more concern about this importation of US-funded evangelical right-wing nuttiness and, in particular, the appearance of several leading Tory MPs. I note, for example, that Wiki says Miriam Cates is an evangelical Christian. Is it the British Tea Party movement?

    If anybody's interested, I came across this article by John Hayes on Conservative Home. Scary stuff, I think. Even the Tory commenters mostly seem to think he's as mad as a box of frogs.

    https://conservativehome.com/2023/05/15/john-hayes-national-conservatism-can-help-the-government-deliver-on-the-promises-of-2019/

    Sunak may end up the most moderate Tory leader for a generation, much as Major ended up being the most centrist Tory leader for years even despite his 1997 defeat.

    Much as Labour too drifted ever further left culminating in Corbynism after Brown's defeat in 2010 before finally returning to the centre with Sir Keir, the seeds of which developed in opposition to the Iraq War and New Labour so the populist Conservative right is ready to start to take over the party as soon as the party goes into opposition fuelled by Brexit and culture wars
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 7,168
    darkage said:

    This National Conservatism Conference really is something else. If there's a concern that we import wokeness from the USA, there should be much more concern about this importation of US-funded evangelical right-wing nuttiness and, in particular, the appearance of several leading Tory MPs. I note, for example, that Wiki says Miriam Cates is an evangelical Christian. Is it the British Tea Party movement?

    If anybody's interested, I came across this article by John Hayes on Conservative Home. Scary stuff, I think. Even the Tory commenters mostly seem to think he's as mad as a box of frogs.

    https://conservativehome.com/2023/05/15/john-hayes-national-conservatism-can-help-the-government-deliver-on-the-promises-of-2019/

    @Northern_Al
    Could you explain what part of this article you are scared about?
    All of it?

    “People yearned for a self-confident, common-sense government that put the interests of hard-working, law-abiding patriots first.” <- putting the interests of “patriots” first means criminalising dissent and is incompatible with democracy.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    tlg86 said:

    The police should be investigating this voter suppression plan.

    What actual laws are they suspected of breaking? Is there a law that says things have to be fair?
    Malfeasance in public office.

    JRM, Sunak et al have knowingly misused or abused their power or authority and willingly acted to cause harm to an individual or group.
    Presumably you reported your boy Dave to the police after he culled (can I used that word? :lol:) a load of people from the electoral roll?
    Did he? Or are you just an embittered roadman gooner?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    TSE has gone full Jolyon

    Rees-Mogg’s moronic musings are worth nothing legally

    His idiocy might well cost the Tories further in their polling and their election chances, but there’s no way time will be wasted pursuing it to any court

    ETA obviously Jolyon might, but then QED

    So the fault lies with the conspirator that let the cat out of the bag, than the conspiracy itself?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,918

    Leicester fans singing God Save The King and getting drowned out by the Liverpool fans singing Liverpool.

    Don't the rest of us plebs need saving? Stupid so-called "national" "anthem"!
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,572

    Gerrymander = manipulation of GEOGRAPHIC boundaries (for example, legislative districts) for electoral advantage.

    This has been American definition of the word, invented in USA and named after an American politico for his contribution to the practice, for over 200 hundred years.

    WHY our British cousins have decided to expand meaning of gerrymander, to include (it seems) ANY manipulation of electoral process, is beyond me.

    Do any of you have a clue?

    My guess is quasi-ignorance combined with unalloyed laziness; that is, mis-users have heard of the word, but NOT what it actually means - and haven't bothered to find out.

    "Voter suppression" is the correct term, and it is exactly that. Another US import.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,415
    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    Astonishing that no one realised before it was too late.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the rigging scheme actually DID have the desired effect, and Rees-Mogg is relying on misinformation through anecdata to draw his conclusions.

    I'm sure I read and posted some other research on this a couple of weeks back which suggested that the rigging scheme was likely to disproportionately affect low income voters who were more likely to back Labour. Tories who think it backfired may be forming that opinion through hearing the complaints of small numbers of wealthy older people - the population segment that accounts for the bulk of their party membership, and the only group (save for the very rich) that they either listen to or care about.
    The problem is lots of wealthy older people voted LD or Independent at the local elections in protest at new housing plans in their Tory controlled local authority areas, especially in the South, as did many richer voters more generally. Even if those voters come back to the Tories at the general election to try and keep Labour out of No 10 and their taxes and immigration down.

    In fact skilled white working class voters were the most likely to vote Tory on May 4th, indeed the few councils the Tories held then like Dartford, Harlow, Braintree, Basildon, Walsall and Dudley were filled with such voters. However the ID requirement would have made them much less likely to vote, while Nimby OAPs protest voting LD or Residents were not affected as they mainly voted by post.

    So Jacob is right, what might have been a 'cunning plan' by the Tories for the general election, ended up a Baldrick style 'cunning plan' disaster at the local elections as they lost control of councils across the Home Counties especially and over 1000 Tory councillors were gone

    “in protest at new housing plans in their Tory controlled local authority areas”

    Isn’t the Conservative MPs upset the government don’t have house building plans, they will lose their seats because Labour are the only party intent to build homes for people to buy?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968
    Shocking.

    Royal Mail is facing an investigation by the industry watchdog after it failed to meet its delivery targets over the past year.

    Ofcom said it would consider whether any "exceptional events" explained why Royal Mail fell short.

    But if there were no "satisfactory explanation", the regulator said it would consider imposing a fine.

    The postal service delivered only 73.7% of First Class mail within a day - far short of the 93% target.

    Ofcom said the impact of Covid was no longer "an excuse for poor delivery performance".

    If Royal Mail is fined, it would be its second penalty since 2019 when it paid out £1.5m for failing to deliver first class letters on time.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65601117
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Shocking.

    Royal Mail is facing an investigation by the industry watchdog after it failed to meet its delivery targets over the past year.

    Ofcom said it would consider whether any "exceptional events" explained why Royal Mail fell short.

    But if there were no "satisfactory explanation", the regulator said it would consider imposing a fine.

    The postal service delivered only 73.7% of First Class mail within a day - far short of the 93% target.

    Ofcom said the impact of Covid was no longer "an excuse for poor delivery performance".

    If Royal Mail is fined, it would be its second penalty since 2019 when it paid out £1.5m for failing to deliver first class letters on time.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65601117

    Well the CWU strikes hardly helped
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968

    Leicester fans singing God Save The King and getting drowned out by the Liverpool fans singing Liverpool.

    Don't the rest of us plebs need saving? Stupid so-called "national" "anthem"!
    Yeah, it's not really for us science based, God doubting, democrats.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2023

    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    Foul creatures. They're not in the slightest bit bothered about rigging elections. What troubles them is that they think they did it so incompetently that the rigging attempt ended up benefiting their opponents.

    Astonishing that no one realised before it was too late.
    I wouldn't be surprised if the rigging scheme actually DID have the desired effect, and Rees-Mogg is relying on misinformation through anecdata to draw his conclusions.

    I'm sure I read and posted some other research on this a couple of weeks back which suggested that the rigging scheme was likely to disproportionately affect low income voters who were more likely to back Labour. Tories who think it backfired may be forming that opinion through hearing the complaints of small numbers of wealthy older people - the population segment that accounts for the bulk of their party membership, and the only group (save for the very rich) that they either listen to or care about.
    The problem is lots of wealthy older people voted LD or Independent at the local elections in protest at new housing plans in their Tory controlled local authority areas, especially in the South, as did many richer voters more generally. Even if those voters come back to the Tories at the general election to try and keep Labour out of No 10 and their taxes and immigration down.

    In fact skilled white working class voters were the most likely to vote Tory on May 4th, indeed the few councils the Tories held then like Dartford, Harlow, Braintree, Basildon, Walsall and Dudley were filled with such voters. However the ID requirement would have made them much less likely to vote, while Nimby OAPs protest voting LD or Residents were not affected as they mainly voted by post.

    So Jacob is right, what might have been a 'cunning plan' by the Tories for the general election, ended up a Baldrick style 'cunning plan' disaster at the local elections as they lost control of councils across the Home Counties especially and over 1000 Tory councillors were gone

    “in protest at new housing plans in their Tory controlled local authority areas”

    Isn’t the Conservative MPs upset the government don’t have house building plans, they will lose their seats because Labour are the only party intent to build homes for people to buy?
    They are not going to hold their seats in 2024 with their council promising to build new homes over a 10-15 year period, indeed such proposals have already seen lots of Tory councils go LD or NOC or Independent due to NIMBY revolt. There are no votes in housebuilding until the new new homes and flats are actually built and the grateful new property owners move in
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,918
    edited May 2023

    mwadams said:

    Gerrymander = manipulation of GEOGRAPHIC boundaries (for example, legislative districts) for electoral advantage.

    This has been American definition of the word, invented in USA and named after an American politico for his contribution to the practice, for over 200 hundred years.

    WHY our British cousins have decided to expand meaning of gerrymander, to include (it seems) ANY manipulation of electoral process, is beyond me.

    Do any of you have a clue?

    My guess is quasi-ignorance combined with unalloyed laziness; that is, mis-users have heard of the word, but NOT what it actually means - and haven't bothered to find out.

    Or...words change their meaning over time and space via a number of different mechanisms including ignorance, common misuse, parody, adjacency of meaning, contextual changes. The effect can go so far as to invert sense.

    It's interesting how often people rail against these changes though. It is usually a hiding to nothing.

    I'm all for remembering the history of usage and etymology though.
    In case of gerrymander, hard (for me) to see what's positive about muddying up the meaning, to mean anything that the speaker WANTS it to mean?

    Reserve it for geographical fiddling, I say! AND note I'm the 21st-century Funk & Wagnalls . . .
    Commonwealth used to mean "republic" (or an approximation at least!). Now it means the "former British Empire".
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,968
    HYUFD said:

    Shocking.

    Royal Mail is facing an investigation by the industry watchdog after it failed to meet its delivery targets over the past year.

    Ofcom said it would consider whether any "exceptional events" explained why Royal Mail fell short.

    But if there were no "satisfactory explanation", the regulator said it would consider imposing a fine.

    The postal service delivered only 73.7% of First Class mail within a day - far short of the 93% target.

    Ofcom said the impact of Covid was no longer "an excuse for poor delivery performance".

    If Royal Mail is fined, it would be its second penalty since 2019 when it paid out £1.5m for failing to deliver first class letters on time.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65601117

    Well the CWU strikes hardly helped
    We should sack every Royal Mail employee and give the contract to DPD, they know how to deliver.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,239
    rcs1000 said:

    Point of order: it wasn't gerrymandering, but instead an attempt to shape the electorate.

    "Moggmander" - using voter suppression schemes, for example onerous or unfair ID requirements for voting, to manipulate election outcomes.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    On a previous thread, @El_Capitano asked this -

    "Would Cyclefree have written this article if it were a transgender writer being "discriminated against"?"

    And the answer is yes. Because I did write such an article, based on that very assumption, from which my header was an excerpt. See here - https://www.cyclefree.co.uk/whose-free-speech/.

    I think there is much wisdom in this saying of JS Mill - "He who knows only his side of the case knows little of that."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2023

    HYUFD said:

    Shocking.

    Royal Mail is facing an investigation by the industry watchdog after it failed to meet its delivery targets over the past year.

    Ofcom said it would consider whether any "exceptional events" explained why Royal Mail fell short.

    But if there were no "satisfactory explanation", the regulator said it would consider imposing a fine.

    The postal service delivered only 73.7% of First Class mail within a day - far short of the 93% target.

    Ofcom said the impact of Covid was no longer "an excuse for poor delivery performance".

    If Royal Mail is fined, it would be its second penalty since 2019 when it paid out £1.5m for failing to deliver first class letters on time.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65601117

    Well the CWU strikes hardly helped
    We should sack every Royal Mail employee and give the contract to DPD, they know how to deliver.
    DPD have neither the capacity nor infrastructure to deliver everywhere, especially not in rural areas at an affordable price
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/full-list-postcodes-hit-dpd-28722885
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751

    Shocking.

    Royal Mail is facing an investigation by the industry watchdog after it failed to meet its delivery targets over the past year.

    Ofcom said it would consider whether any "exceptional events" explained why Royal Mail fell short.

    But if there were no "satisfactory explanation", the regulator said it would consider imposing a fine.

    The postal service delivered only 73.7% of First Class mail within a day - far short of the 93% target.

    Ofcom said the impact of Covid was no longer "an excuse for poor delivery performance".

    If Royal Mail is fined, it would be its second penalty since 2019 when it paid out £1.5m for failing to deliver first class letters on time.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65601117

    Not quite their event Horizon.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,046

    Gerrymander = manipulation of GEOGRAPHIC boundaries (for example, legislative districts) for electoral advantage.

    This has been American definition of the word, invented in USA and named after an American politico for his contribution to the practice, for over 200 hundred years.

    WHY our British cousins have decided to expand meaning of gerrymander, to include (it seems) ANY manipulation of electoral process, is beyond me.

    Do any of you have a clue?

    My guess is quasi-ignorance combined with unalloyed laziness; that is, mis-users have heard of the word, but NOT what it actually means - and haven't bothered to find out.

    Quite right, you tell 'em.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 2,800

    Shocking.

    Royal Mail is facing an investigation by the industry watchdog after it failed to meet its delivery targets over the past year.

    Ofcom said it would consider whether any "exceptional events" explained why Royal Mail fell short.

    But if there were no "satisfactory explanation", the regulator said it would consider imposing a fine.

    The postal service delivered only 73.7% of First Class mail within a day - far short of the 93% target.

    Ofcom said the impact of Covid was no longer "an excuse for poor delivery performance".

    If Royal Mail is fined, it would be its second penalty since 2019 when it paid out £1.5m for failing to deliver first class letters on time.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65601117

    I used to work for them. It's not at all shocking to me. And also not still my fault.
This discussion has been closed.