This is quite striking – politicalbetting.com

Striking video:

13 years of @SpaceX Florida liftoffs.

See the frequency skyrocketing as the years go by with a peak at the end

[📹Hazegrayart: https://buff.ly/42MXeD5]

https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1638946761141108739?s=20P

Sandpit said:

A BBC public voodoo poll?

Not really. Aiui the audience is designed to be representative, and it's not as if people could vote more than once. (Or less than never, as it turned out.)

DecrepiterJohnL said:

CarlottaVance said:

Striking video:

13 years of @SpaceX Florida liftoffs.

See the frequency skyrocketing as the years go by with a peak at the end

[📹Hazegrayart: https://buff.ly/42MXeD5]

https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1638946761141108739?s=20P

Striking video: Messi scored his 800th goal last night.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1639076142899404803

More striking news: Harry Kane became England's top scorer last night.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1639002812582445056

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Labour plots tax raid on savings and investments
...
HOW CGT HAS CHANGED
1965 – Labour's James Callaghan introduces capital gains tax at 30%
1988 – Conservative Chancellor Nigel Lawson aligns CGT with income tax bands, with the top rate at 40%
2008 – Alistair Darling cuts rates to a single 18% charge
2010 – George Osborne introduces higher 28% rate
2016 – Osborne cuts headline rate to 20% for investments, while keeping the 28% levy for residential property
2022 – Jeremy Hunt announces cut in CGT allowance from £12,300 to £6,000 a year from April 2023
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/23/labour-capital-gains-tax-rishi-sunak-taxes-keir-starmer/ (£££)

The key thing is how few people pay any CGT - even now only just over 300k - less than 1% of the population.

What really matters here is the ISA allowance. Will Labour dare touch that?

As long as you can put £20k into an ISA every year then only very, very rich people are going to be paying CGT at all.

Casino_Royale said:

Sandpit said:

A BBC public voodoo poll?

Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.

Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.

Good morning

Actually that is quite funny and not at all surprising

Johnson's political career is over as his colleagues close ranks behind Sunak

Indeed Sunak's attitude to government is refreshing not least as Mark Drakeford joins him on Anglesey to endorse Holyhead as a new freeport. This collegiate approach would not have happened under Johnson or Truss

Anglesey freeport will give 'rocket boosters' to economy

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/anglesey-freeport-rocket-boost-economy-26544560#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare

Casino_Royale said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Casino_Royale said:

Sandpit said:

A BBC public voodoo poll?

Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.

Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.

If one or two people had put their hands up, then perhaps a few more would have followed. Not many but a few.

Since no-one did you can't necessarily conclude that no-one believes Boris (although that might indeed be the case) but that no-one had the confidence to put up their hand up to say so, particularly because a microphone might have immediately been stuffed in their faces to explain themselves had they done so in the face of a hostile audience.

This is why we have a secret ballot.

I can assure you that if @HYUFD had been there, then he would have raised his hand.

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

Actually that is quite funny and not at all surprising

Johnson's political career is over as his colleagues close ranks behind Sunak

Indeed Sunak's attitude to government is refreshing not least as Mark Drakeford joins him on Anglesey to endorse Holyhead as a new freeport. This collegiate approach would not have happened under Johnson or Truss

Anglesey freeport will give 'rocket boosters' to economy

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/anglesey-freeport-rocket-boost-economy-26544560#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare

It won’t unless they build a decent road bridge to the mainland.

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops, the more unreasonable that 35% will look.

I understand it is based on catching up on the losses they have suffered by settlements over the past 15 years. But using industrial action against the nation's health to get a monster inflation-causing settlement is unlikely to get them a place in the people's hearts.

The junior doctors got paid through Covid; they got their pension contributions met through Covid, they knew their employment was secure through Covid. Not many in the private sector could say that.

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops, the more unreasonable that 35% will look.

I understand it is based on catching up on the losses they have suffered by settlements over the past 15 years. But using industrial action against the nation's health to get a monster inflation-causing settlement is unlikely to get them a place in the people's hearts.

The junior doctors got paid through Covid; they got their pension contributions met through Covid, they knew their employment was secure through Covid. Not many in the private sector could say that.

The other issues are that:

- using CPI (not RPI) the claim would be 16%
- No individual doctor has seen their pay impacted like that as they have progressed in seniority
- They have cherry picked 2008 - using any year before or after that the claim would be lower

Basically they over reached from a negotiating position

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

Again, missing the point. Until we have eliminated inflation (or rather, reduced it to negligible levels I.e. 2% or less) we are still going to have strikes as wages are eroded.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Sandpit said:

A BBC public voodoo poll?

Not really. Aiui the audience is designed to be representative, and it's not as if people could vote more than once. (Or less than never, as it turned out.)

It is, in terms of voting behaviour, but it isn’t, in terms of political awareness. Partly because the type of person willing and interested to give up an evening and travel to the TV studio to watch QT is someone who follows the news, but mostly because the way the BBC does it is to contact the political parties and other local organisations with offers of batches of tickets, and those organisations send along their members.

So the telling part about the show of (no) hands is that there will have been a good batch of Tory members in that audience.

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

Casino_Royale said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Casino_Royale said:

Sandpit said:

A BBC public voodoo poll?

Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.

Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.

If one or two people had put their hands up, then perhaps a few more would have followed. Not many but a few.

Since no-one did you can't necessarily conclude that no-one believes Boris (although that might indeed be the case) but that no-one had the confidence to put up their hand up to say so, particularly because a microphone might have immediately been stuffed in their faces to explain themselves had they done so in the face of a hostile audience.

This is why we have a secret ballot.

A fair point, but balanced by the considerations that at least it shows pretty much everyone knows that most people don’t believe Johnson, and also that some might take the opposite point of view to make a point or take a stand, not from genuine belief. Rather like the US research into Trump which finds that very many of those who say they believe Trump and the stolen election fantasy don’t *believe* it in the sense of thinking it really happened, but believe it because they want someone taking the fight to their loathed opponents and as a weapon to bash them with.

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

It’s not unreasonable.

They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

It’s not unreasonable.

They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer

In that case the strikes will go on.

Incidentally, if the negotiations for Consultants and GPs don't progress by 1st April, we too are balloting to strike. 86% voted to strike in the BMA indicative ballot a few weeks ago.

( I voted for action short of strike myself, such as an over time ban and refusal to cover rota gaps, or go to management meetings etc).

Sure, the strikes will go on until the union leadership are willing to negotiate sensibly

Trying to step away from your personal interest - do you think the government can feasibly accept a 35% increase regardless of how justified it might be? What do you think the implications would be for other parts of the public sector?

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

It’s not unreasonable.

They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer

In that case the strikes will go on.

Incidentally, if the negotiations for Consultants and GPs don't progress by 1st April, we too are balloting to strike. 86% voted to strike in the BMA indicative ballot a few weeks ago.

( I voted for action short of strike myself, such as an over time ban and refusal to cover rota gaps, or go to management meetings etc).

Sure, the strikes will go on until the union leadership are willing to negotiate sensibly

Trying to step away from your personal interest - do you think the government can feasibly accept a 35% increase regardless of how justified it might be? What do you think the implications would be for other parts of the public sector?

I think the government can and should commit to a real terms pay rise to reverse the real terms pay cuts of the last few years, even if not back to 2008 rates.

There is a massive retention problem for Juniors. GPs too think their new contract unreasonable.

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

It’s not unreasonable.

They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer

How much behind inflation have MPs’ salaries fallen?

IanB2 said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

It’s not unreasonable.

They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer

How much behind inflation have MPs’ salaries fallen?

I don’t know, but I do think that MPs salaries should be set on the basis of a formula across public sector employees. Otherwise it’s a massive conflict of interest

IanB2 said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

It’s not unreasonable.

They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer

How much behind inflation have MPs’ salaries fallen?

Or pensioners?

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

It’s not unreasonable.

They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer

In that case the strikes will go on.

Incidentally, if the negotiations for Consultants and GPs don't progress by 1st April, we too are balloting to strike. 86% voted to strike in the BMA indicative ballot a few weeks ago.

( I voted for action short of strike myself, such as an over time ban and refusal to cover rota gaps, or go to management meetings etc).

Sure, the strikes will go on until the union leadership are willing to negotiate sensibly

Trying to step away from your personal interest - do you think the government can feasibly accept a 35% increase regardless of how justified it might be? What do you think the implications would be for other parts of the public sector?

I think the government can and should commit to a real terms pay rise to reverse the real terms pay cuts of the last few years, even if not back to 2008 rates.

There is a massive retention problem for Juniors. GPs too think their new contract unreasonable.

That’s not the question I asked

I’m actually interested in your views on the negotiating tactics - I think the BMA have screwed it up

The way Barclay kept changing the date and time of the negotiations, eventually allocating a 30 minute slot at less than 24 hours notice shows he wasn't serious about negotiating.

The BMA Juniors got a 98% vote to support strike action over this issue. It isn't a tiny group of activists. The strike was pretty universally observed too, showing it not to be just saloon bar talk.

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

It’s not unreasonable.

They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer

Brexit has cost most in this country dearly. It makes perfect sense that while we have this Brexit government in office the public hold them to account. Go for the big pay rises. Like this selfish amoral government have shown it's every man for himself

Anabobazina said:

Yes, last night’s QT was, on the face of it, very, very bad for Red Wall Tories.

Much lolz when the one-time anti-Corbo voter told the Tory minister to “shut his gob”…

Have watched a few clips. Bemused voter says he is fed up with ministers not giving answers and lists the issues they are dodging. Minister given another go by Fiona Bruce, and proceeds to not answer the question and tries to tell the voter what his issues actually are - which is the PMs list and not what he said.

Voter asking the question is not amused...

MarqueeMark said:

FF43 said:

Cookie said:

Well, yes.
But remember this about people who voted Conservative in December 2019; many - most? - did so not out of enthusiasm for Boris but horror of the alternative. We voted Boris knowing he might have driven the country into the ground but also that unlike his counterpart in the Labour Party he wouldn't have actively been trying to do so.
I reckon if you'd asked a similar question on the day after the election you'd have got a similarly damning result. No-one was expecting feats of great competence or honesty.

I know PB isn't representative, but I got a lot of pushback at the time when I pointed out Johnson's obvious incompetence and dishonesty on here. The interesting political phenomenon is how easily Conservatives can ditch their earlier enthusiasms and pretend they never happened. All parties do this of course, but Conservatives seem to be that much more ruthless and, if you will, shameless.

Johnson served his initial purpose, which was to bed-block Corbyn. He was what we had at the time, so had to be supported in that task.

When he proved unable to step up to the role of being Prime Minister, he needed to be moved on, as I was one of the first Conservatives on here to call for.

That Rishi didn't get to step straight into his shoes was an abberation I had no part in, but was quickly corrected. I am happy to extend my support for Rishi through the foreseeable future, and lend my weight to getting him re-elected. I personally think he has a greater claim to be morally fit for the post than someone who spent three years in the Shadow Cabinet sat next to a Labour leader who failed to act on anti-semitisim running through his party.

And- remember this (below)?

Do you think Tories may bring this up in the campaign??

https://brexitcentral.com/starmer-must-account-coordinating-foreign-powers-opposed-government-policy/

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.

No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.

The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.

The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.

But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.

Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.

It's either vote to strike, emigrate, or leave the profession.

What else can people do when the government refuses to make an opening offer?

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.

No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.

What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.

No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.

What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?

Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.

Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?

Casino_Royale said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Casino_Royale said:

Sandpit said:

A BBC public voodoo poll?

Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.

Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.

If one or two people had put their hands up, then perhaps a few more would have followed. Not many but a few.

Since no-one did you can't necessarily conclude that no-one believes Boris (although that might indeed be the case) but that no-one had the confidence to put up their hand up to say so, particularly because a microphone might have immediately been stuffed in their faces to explain themselves had they done so in the face of a hostile audience.

This is why we have a secret ballot.

This is a program where the audience is composed of those more perfomatively opinionated than the average PB commenter.

kamski said:

I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.

No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.

What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?

Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.

Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?

Better than civil servants then who enter at the bottom of the pay scale and then never move up. This has led to departments getting creative with pay settlements to give youngsters a bit of help, but, naturally, it's pissed off the generation Xers who are at the top of their pay bands who then get lower pay rises.

Nigelb said:

Casino_Royale said:

Sandpit said:

A BBC public voodoo poll?

Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.

Indeed.
It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.

Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.

No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.

The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.

The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.

But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.

Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.

I take your point but what do you do? The quid pro quo for not striking in such a caring profession is surely that your employer acts responsibly and reasonably. Instead, we seem to have a government who has taken advantage of that reluctance over a period of years to significantly reduce the real value of their pay. There comes a point when the employees surely have to say, enough.

This isn't to say that the junior doctors arguments are sound or valid in every respect. This entire country has gone through the equivalent of a lost 15 years now in terms of wage growth. A lot of this has been driven by statistical nonsense, what we have seen in a reduction in the number of people earning super salaries in the City which has driven the average down considerably without the majority being worse off at all but the fact is that the country does not earn nearly as much as when financial services were at their peak and there is less money to go around. Trying to restore some hypothetical high point of real terms wages is not a reasonable or "fair" proposition when almost no one else can do so either.

The NHS is by far the biggest employer in the country, probably the biggest in western Europe. We indulge in silly fantasies about those who work there but they are no different from the rest of us. They want paid a rate for what they do that earns them the standard of living they aspire to. And if their employer won't give it to them they eventually have to act. That's the way of the world.

MarqueeMark said:

When he proved unable to step up to the role of being Prime Minister, he needed to be moved on, as I was one of the first Conservatives on here to call for.

...

I personally think he has a greater claim to be morally fit for the post than someone who spent three years in the Shadow Cabinet sat next to a Labour leader who failed to act on anti-semitisim running through his party.

Rishi had the chance to "move BoZo on' and didn't take it, so your hand wringing about sitting next to someone and failing to act is just partisan sophistry

Boris Johnson will step up campaigning in his constituency as concerns grow that he will face a by-election within months if he is sanctioned over the Downing Street lockdown parties scandal.

The Times has been told that Johnson is already planning for the “worst-case scenario”, a ten-day suspension from the Commons, which could trigger a by-election in Uxbridge & Ruislip.

Johnson has been more active in the constituency since becoming a backbencher and is campaigning for a new hospital in Hillingdon and a new police station in Uxbridge.

His efforts have been focused on local issues and his personal brand and he does not mention Rishi Sunak as prime minister on his website at all....

...The son of Sue Gray... ...has campaigned for [the Labour candidate] in the constituency.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-partygate-latest-news-rishi-sunak-tory-party-live-2023-w2m6sd0bw

Fiona Bruce is very good as are most BBC presenters.They have years of experience in getting the right people and giving them the right ethos. Hopefully this won't change now the Johnson/Tory poison has entered the well. The recent signs aren't good

Comedy Question Time clip. Sir Howard Davies describing how Boris Johnson would meet with him and then go onto the radio claiming that he had said the opposite to what he actually said.

Boris Johnson is a brazen, proven, repeated liar. We all know this. We have all the evidence about partygate. We have him openly lying to the enquiry about him lying to parliament and being called out for it by Jenkin and Howard. Yet to declare that he lied to parliament somehow makes me biased...

https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1639044255942430722

Dura_Ace said:

Nigelb said:

kamski said:

I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?

It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.

But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.

Foxy said:

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.

No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.

What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?

Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.

Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?

Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

Foxy said:

MarqueeMark said:

ydoethur said:

MarqueeMark said:

StillWaters said:

Fpt @Foxy

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

StillWaters said:

Foxy said:

These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious

Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.

According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter

No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.

“On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

They are just being unreasonable

And as inflation drops,

No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.

If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.

On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.

No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.

The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.

The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.

But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.

Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.

It's either vote to strike, emigrate, or leave the profession.

What else can people do when the government refuses to make an opening offer?

They could come off a completely bonkers 35% starting position. They are never going to get anything like that. If they get a better deal than nurses, people are going to ask "Why?".

geoffw said:

Disappointed in Andrew Bailey. He exhorts firms to moderate price increases and workers to reduce wage demands. Shades of Edward Heath trying to control inflation. Inflation however is a monetary phenomenon and it is the BoE's express duty to keep it under control. Interest rates and money supply are the appropriate levers and they are in Bailey's hands.

To be fair to him, what we really need to do is radically increase supply of energy to reduce its cost as that is driving inflation. Sadly that is not on the Government's agenda, and it is gross dereliction of duty. All else is tinkering and hoping for the best.

Bruce should have then asked who would still vote for Boris and a hefty chunk would.

ydoethur said:

Sandpit said:

Dura_Ace said:

Nigelb said:

kamski said:

I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?

It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.

But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.

Well, yes. That’s the point.

That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.

'The point' is surely rather that the military support from the US is a loan not a gift, and as a result, Ukraine now has a debt it can never pay off, and is effectively owned by the US.

Luckyguy1983 said:

I thought this would be a TSE thread about strikes.

Yes, I can understand why you could mistake this awesome and subtle pun for one of mine.

Sandpit said:

Dura_Ace said:

Nigelb said:

kamski said:

I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?

It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.

But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.

For the US it's $50bn worth of weapons and you can argue the toss about what that's actually costing them but it's not nothing and about $25bn in cash so far.

ydoethur said:

Sandpit said:

Dura_Ace said:

Nigelb said:

kamski said:

I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?

It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.

But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.

Well, yes. That’s the point.

That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.

Everything there is so massively polarised, much more so than in the UK, with tribes of people taking a view on an issue purely by the people involved. “Social” media has a lot to answer for.

We know that international aid is high on people’s list of things which government should spend less money, especially at a time of economic uncertainty at home.

The Biden adminstration’s use of huge numbers galvanises Republican opposition - although if it comes to spending real money on making new stuff for Ukraine, the Republican donors in the military industrial complex will make their view known.