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This is quite striking – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited March 2023 in General
This is quite striking – politicalbetting.com

Spectacular! Fiona Bruce: “There are more people in this audience who voted for Boris Johnson than any other single Party here. So let’s have a show of hands shall we, who believes Boris Johnson was telling the truth?”#bbcqt #QuestionTime pic.twitter.com/iKJW1yVm2q

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Comments

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Cookie said:

    Well, yes.
    But remember this about people who voted Conservative in December 2019; many - most? - did so not out of enthusiasm for Boris but horror of the alternative. We voted Boris knowing he might have driven the country into the ground but also that unlike his counterpart in the Labour Party he wouldn't have actively been trying to do so.
    I reckon if you'd asked a similar question on the day after the election you'd have got a similarly damning result. No-one was expecting feats of great competence or honesty.

    Can I introduce you to @HYUFD?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Striking video:

    13 years of @SpaceX Florida liftoffs.

    See the frequency skyrocketing as the years go by with a peak at the end

    [📹Hazegrayart: https://buff.ly/42MXeD5]


    https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1638946761141108739?s=20P
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    A BBC public voodoo poll?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895
    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Not really. Aiui the audience is designed to be representative, and it's not as if people could vote more than once. (Or less than never, as it turned out.)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895

    Striking video:

    13 years of @SpaceX Florida liftoffs.

    See the frequency skyrocketing as the years go by with a peak at the end

    [📹Hazegrayart: https://buff.ly/42MXeD5]


    https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1638946761141108739?s=20P

    Striking video: Messi scored his 800th goal last night.
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1639076142899404803
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895

    Striking video:

    13 years of @SpaceX Florida liftoffs.

    See the frequency skyrocketing as the years go by with a peak at the end

    [📹Hazegrayart: https://buff.ly/42MXeD5]


    https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1638946761141108739?s=20P

    Striking video: Messi scored his 800th goal last night.
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1639076142899404803
    More striking news: Harry Kane became England's top scorer last night.
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1639002812582445056
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895
    Labour plots tax raid on savings and investments
    ...
    HOW CGT HAS CHANGED
    1965 – Labour's James Callaghan introduces capital gains tax at 30%
    1988 – Conservative Chancellor Nigel Lawson aligns CGT with income tax bands, with the top rate at 40%
    2008 – Alistair Darling cuts rates to a single 18% charge
    2010 – George Osborne introduces higher 28% rate
    2016 – Osborne cuts headline rate to 20% for investments, while keeping the 28% levy for residential property
    2022 – Jeremy Hunt announces cut in CGT allowance from £12,300 to £6,000 a year from April 2023

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/23/labour-capital-gains-tax-rishi-sunak-taxes-keir-starmer/ (£££)
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,706

    Labour plots tax raid on savings and investments
    ...
    HOW CGT HAS CHANGED
    1965 – Labour's James Callaghan introduces capital gains tax at 30%
    1988 – Conservative Chancellor Nigel Lawson aligns CGT with income tax bands, with the top rate at 40%
    2008 – Alistair Darling cuts rates to a single 18% charge
    2010 – George Osborne introduces higher 28% rate
    2016 – Osborne cuts headline rate to 20% for investments, while keeping the 28% levy for residential property
    2022 – Jeremy Hunt announces cut in CGT allowance from £12,300 to £6,000 a year from April 2023

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/23/labour-capital-gains-tax-rishi-sunak-taxes-keir-starmer/ (£££)

    The key thing is how few people pay any CGT - even now only just over 300k - less than 1% of the population.

    What really matters here is the ISA allowance. Will Labour dare touch that?

    As long as you can put £20k into an ISA every year then only very, very rich people are going to be paying CGT at all.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895
    edited March 2023
    MikeL said:

    Labour plots tax raid on savings and investments
    ...
    HOW CGT HAS CHANGED
    1965 – Labour's James Callaghan introduces capital gains tax at 30%
    1988 – Conservative Chancellor Nigel Lawson aligns CGT with income tax bands, with the top rate at 40%
    2008 – Alistair Darling cuts rates to a single 18% charge
    2010 – George Osborne introduces higher 28% rate
    2016 – Osborne cuts headline rate to 20% for investments, while keeping the 28% levy for residential property
    2022 – Jeremy Hunt announces cut in CGT allowance from £12,300 to £6,000 a year from April 2023

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/23/labour-capital-gains-tax-rishi-sunak-taxes-keir-starmer/ (£££)

    The key thing is how few people pay any CGT - even now only just over 300k - less than 1% of the population.

    What really matters here is the ISA allowance. Will Labour dare touch that?

    As long as you can put £20k into an ISA every year then only very, very rich people are going to be paying CGT at all.
    CGT is in the news because Rishi pays it, as shown in his tax statement published Wednesday, as does Starmer to a lesser extent but at a higher rate.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    Labour plots tax raid on savings and investments
    ...
    HOW CGT HAS CHANGED
    1965 – Labour's James Callaghan introduces capital gains tax at 30%
    1988 – Conservative Chancellor Nigel Lawson aligns CGT with income tax bands, with the top rate at 40%
    2008 – Alistair Darling cuts rates to a single 18% charge
    2010 – George Osborne introduces higher 28% rate
    2016 – Osborne cuts headline rate to 20% for investments, while keeping the 28% levy for residential property
    2022 – Jeremy Hunt announces cut in CGT allowance from £12,300 to £6,000 a year from April 2023

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/23/labour-capital-gains-tax-rishi-sunak-taxes-keir-starmer/ (£££)

    Worth noting that when capital gains was 40% then it was inflation adjusted. So the difference in rates is nowhere near as severe as it appears.

    So a £1,000 investment that grew to £2,000 over five years would be measured as a £1,300 investment as far as entry price goes.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Yes, last night’s QT was, on the face of it, very, very bad for Red Wall Tories.

    Much lolz when the one-time anti-Corbo voter told the Tory minister to “shut his gob”…
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,034
    edited March 2023
    Good morning

    Actually that is quite funny and not at all surprising

    Johnson's political career is over as his colleagues close ranks behind Sunak

    Indeed Sunak's attitude to government is refreshing not least as Mark Drakeford joins him on Anglesey to endorse Holyhead as a new freeport. This collegiate approach would not have happened under Johnson or Truss

    Anglesey freeport will give 'rocket boosters' to economy

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/anglesey-freeport-rocket-boost-economy-26544560#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895
    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    Biden believes it whereas DeSantis is walking back his previous remarks that were badly received.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.
    If one or two people had put their hands up, then perhaps a few more would have followed. Not many but a few.

    Since no-one did you can't necessarily conclude that no-one believes Boris (although that might indeed be the case) but that no-one had the confidence to put up their hand up to say so, particularly because a microphone might have immediately been stuffed in their faces to explain themselves had they done so in the face of a hostile audience.

    This is why we have a secret ballot.
    I can assure you that if @HYUFD had been there, then he would have raised his hand.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.
    If one or two people had put their hands up, then perhaps a few more would have followed. Not many but a few.

    Since no-one did you can't necessarily conclude that no-one believes Boris (although that might indeed be the case) but that no-one had the confidence to put up their hand up to say so, particularly because a microphone might have immediately been stuffed in their faces to explain themselves had they done so in the face of a hostile audience.

    This is why we have a secret ballot.
    They'll admit to voting for Boris but not to believing him.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,250
    Fpt @Foxy
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    On Rahul Gandhi, his remarks on thieves having the surname Modi were silly. But 2 years in prison? The judgment seems legally questionable on several grounds, so perhaps will be reversed on appeal. I see that Congress are claiming that the case was delayed several times (the remarks were made in 2019) by the complainant, but as soon as the magistrate was changed to someone the BJP liked the case went ahead. Also that the complainant has no standing, and the case is in the wrong jurisdiction.
    The BJP are claiming the remarks were a slur on the OBC (Other Backward Class) community, but I don't think this is right as the name Modi doesn't seem to be associated with OBCs, but rather more with the Vaishya community. (Although Narendra Modi himself does come from an OBC community.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    Good morning

    Actually that is quite funny and not at all surprising

    Johnson's political career is over as his colleagues close ranks behind Sunak

    Indeed Sunak's attitude to government is refreshing not least as Mark Drakeford joins him on Anglesey to endorse Holyhead as a new freeport. This collegiate approach would not have happened under Johnson or Truss

    Anglesey freeport will give 'rocket boosters' to economy

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/anglesey-freeport-rocket-boost-economy-26544560#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare

    It won’t unless they build a decent road bridge to the mainland.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    Biden believes it whereas DeSantis is walking back his previous remarks that were badly received.
    Yes, although his previous remarks also didn't really say what he would do differently to Biden. Just that he was against "further entanglement". I think his previous remarks were an attempt to avoid being outflanked on the issue by Trump being more "America First" than him, rather than being based on whatever he believes. If he believes anything. He screwed up by using the words "territorial dispute" which he was rightly slammed for.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,564

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops, the more unreasonable that 35% will look.

    I understand it is based on catching up on the losses they have suffered by settlements over the past 15 years. But using industrial action against the nation's health to get a monster inflation-causing settlement is unlikely to get them a place in the people's hearts.

    The junior doctors got paid through Covid; they got their pension contributions met through Covid, they knew their employment was secure through Covid. Not many in the private sector could say that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,250

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops, the more unreasonable that 35% will look.

    I understand it is based on catching up on the losses they have suffered by settlements over the past 15 years. But using industrial action against the nation's health to get a monster inflation-causing settlement is unlikely to get them a place in the people's hearts.

    The junior doctors got paid through Covid; they got their pension contributions met through Covid, they knew their employment was secure through Covid. Not many in the private sector could say that.
    The other issues are that:

    - using CPI (not RPI) the claim would be 16%
    - No individual doctor has seen their pay impacted like that as they have progressed in seniority
    - They have cherry picked 2008 - using any year before or after that the claim would be lower

    Basically they over reached from a negotiating position
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,564
    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    Again, missing the point. Until we have eliminated inflation (or rather, reduced it to negligible levels I.e. 2% or less) we are still going to have strikes as wages are eroded.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    MikeL said:

    Labour plots tax raid on savings and investments
    ...
    HOW CGT HAS CHANGED
    1965 – Labour's James Callaghan introduces capital gains tax at 30%
    1988 – Conservative Chancellor Nigel Lawson aligns CGT with income tax bands, with the top rate at 40%
    2008 – Alistair Darling cuts rates to a single 18% charge
    2010 – George Osborne introduces higher 28% rate
    2016 – Osborne cuts headline rate to 20% for investments, while keeping the 28% levy for residential property
    2022 – Jeremy Hunt announces cut in CGT allowance from £12,300 to £6,000 a year from April 2023

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/23/labour-capital-gains-tax-rishi-sunak-taxes-keir-starmer/ (£££)

    The key thing is how few people pay any CGT - even now only just over 300k - less than 1% of the population.

    What really matters here is the ISA allowance. Will Labour dare touch that?

    As long as you can put £20k into an ISA every year then only very, very rich people are going to be paying CGT at all.
    CGT is in the news because Rishi pays it, as shown in his tax statement published Wednesday, as does Starmer to a lesser extent but at a higher rate.
    Correction.. only the very rich and the
    non financially aware.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    edited March 2023

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Not really. Aiui the audience is designed to be representative, and it's not as if people could vote more than once. (Or less than never, as it turned out.)
    It is, in terms of voting behaviour, but it isn’t, in terms of political awareness. Partly because the type of person willing and interested to give up an evening and travel to the TV studio to watch QT is someone who follows the news, but mostly because the way the BBC does it is to contact the political parties and other local organisations with offers of batches of tickets, and those organisations send along their members.

    So the telling part about the show of (no) hands is that there will have been a good batch of Tory members in that audience.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.
    He didn’t really cry wolf - that’s about non-existent threats, and is more Leon’s game.

    Johnson ‘cried cake’ - the game of offering non-existent benefits.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

  • ydoethur said:

    Good morning

    Actually that is quite funny and not at all surprising

    Johnson's political career is over as his colleagues close ranks behind Sunak

    Indeed Sunak's attitude to government is refreshing not least as Mark Drakeford joins him on Anglesey to endorse Holyhead as a new freeport. This collegiate approach would not have happened under Johnson or Truss

    Anglesey freeport will give 'rocket boosters' to economy

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/anglesey-freeport-rocket-boost-economy-26544560#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare

    It won’t unless they build a decent road bridge to the mainland.
    Absolutely and hopefully Wales Labour will reverse their anti business decision
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.
    If one or two people had put their hands up, then perhaps a few more would have followed. Not many but a few.

    Since no-one did you can't necessarily conclude that no-one believes Boris (although that might indeed be the case) but that no-one had the confidence to put up their hand up to say so, particularly because a microphone might have immediately been stuffed in their faces to explain themselves had they done so in the face of a hostile audience.

    This is why we have a secret ballot.
    A fair point, but balanced by the considerations that at least it shows pretty much everyone knows that most people don’t believe Johnson, and also that some might take the opposite point of view to make a point or take a stand, not from genuine belief. Rather like the US research into Trump which finds that very many of those who say they believe Trump and the stolen election fantasy don’t *believe* it in the sense of thinking it really happened, but believe it because they want someone taking the fight to their loathed opponents and as a weapon to bash them with.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: said it before, but the 5.5 (5.75 with boost) on Ladbrokes for Perez each way is too long. He should always, on pace, be in the top 2 until the other teams get their act together.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,250
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
    In that case the strikes will go on.

    Incidentally, if the negotiations for Consultants and GPs don't progress by 1st April, we too are balloting to strike. 86% voted to strike in the BMA indicative ballot a few weeks ago.

    ( I voted for action short of strike myself, such as an over time ban and refusal to cover rota gaps, or go to management meetings etc).
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,250
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
    In that case the strikes will go on.

    Incidentally, if the negotiations for Consultants and GPs don't progress by 1st April, we too are balloting to strike. 86% voted to strike in the BMA indicative ballot a few weeks ago.

    ( I voted for action short of strike myself, such as an over time ban and refusal to cover rota gaps, or go to management meetings etc).
    Sure, the strikes will go on until the union leadership are willing to negotiate sensibly

    Trying to step away from your personal interest - do you think the government can feasibly accept a 35% increase regardless of how justified it might be? What do you think the implications would be for other parts of the public sector?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    It was Newcastle Under Lyme last night. No one voted for Boris Johnson there, they voted for Aaron Bell. That moment wasn't an isolated moment, even if quite striking, the rest of the show was quite similar.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
    In that case the strikes will go on.

    Incidentally, if the negotiations for Consultants and GPs don't progress by 1st April, we too are balloting to strike. 86% voted to strike in the BMA indicative ballot a few weeks ago.

    ( I voted for action short of strike myself, such as an over time ban and refusal to cover rota gaps, or go to management meetings etc).
    Sure, the strikes will go on until the union leadership are willing to negotiate sensibly

    Trying to step away from your personal interest - do you think the government can feasibly accept a 35% increase regardless of how justified it might be? What do you think the implications would be for other parts of the public sector?
    I think the government can and should commit to a real terms pay rise to reverse the real terms pay cuts of the last few years, even if not back to 2008 rates.

    There is a massive retention problem for Juniors. GPs too think their new contract unreasonable.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,564
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
    How much behind inflation have MPs’ salaries fallen?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,250
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
    In that case the strikes will go on.

    Incidentally, if the negotiations for Consultants and GPs don't progress by 1st April, we too are balloting to strike. 86% voted to strike in the BMA indicative ballot a few weeks ago.

    ( I voted for action short of strike myself, such as an over time ban and refusal to cover rota gaps, or go to management meetings etc).
    Sure, the strikes will go on until the union leadership are willing to negotiate sensibly

    Trying to step away from your personal interest - do you think the government can feasibly accept a 35% increase regardless of how justified it might be? What do you think the implications would be for other parts of the public sector?
    I think the government can and should commit to a real terms pay rise to reverse the real terms pay cuts of the last few years, even if not back to 2008 rates.

    There is a massive retention problem for Juniors. GPs too think their new contract unreasonable.
    That’s not the question I asked

    I’m actually interested in your views on the negotiating tactics - I think the BMA have screwed it up
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,250
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
    How much behind inflation have MPs’ salaries fallen?
    I don’t know, but I do think that MPs salaries should be set on the basis of a formula across public sector employees. Otherwise it’s a massive conflict of interest
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
    How much behind inflation have MPs’ salaries fallen?
    Or pensioners?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215
    edited March 2023
    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    Hold on though. Monthly presentations of yearly inflation jiggers this up doesn't it?

    If the price of something is £100 for the whole of a base year x
    And in year x+1 the monthly inflation of that item is 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%. 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 10%. 2%, 2%,
    then this is pound terms is £102, £102, £102, £102, £102, £102, £102,£102, £102, £110, £102, £102

    So the reduction in yearly inflation from month 10 to month 11 (10% to 2%) whilst still positive DOES mean a fall in price (£110 to £102).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    edited March 2023

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
    In that case the strikes will go on.

    Incidentally, if the negotiations for Consultants and GPs don't progress by 1st April, we too are balloting to strike. 86% voted to strike in the BMA indicative ballot a few weeks ago.

    ( I voted for action short of strike myself, such as an over time ban and refusal to cover rota gaps, or go to management meetings etc).
    Sure, the strikes will go on until the union leadership are willing to negotiate sensibly

    Trying to step away from your personal interest - do you think the government can feasibly accept a 35% increase regardless of how justified it might be? What do you think the implications would be for other parts of the public sector?
    I think the government can and should commit to a real terms pay rise to reverse the real terms pay cuts of the last few years, even if not back to 2008 rates.

    There is a massive retention problem for Juniors. GPs too think their new contract unreasonable.
    That’s not the question I asked

    I’m actually interested in your views on the negotiating tactics - I think the BMA have screwed it up
    The way Barclay kept changing the date and time of the negotiations, eventually allocating a 30 minute slot at less than 24 hours notice shows he wasn't serious about negotiating.

    The BMA Juniors got a 98% vote to support strike action over this issue. It isn't a tiny group of activists. The strike was pretty universally observed too, showing it not to be just saloon bar talk.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    edited March 2023

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Not really. Aiui the audience is designed to be representative, and it's not as if people could vote more than once. (Or less than never, as it turned out.)
    A live audience for a politics programme cannot be representative of people who don't want to go, don't vote, don't care, are startlingly dim, understand complex issues, don't watch telly, don't clap at soundbites, are always drunk or drugged, can't or won't travel, have better things to do, don't have opinions, are housebound, don't want to be ranted at, are easily bored, don't like being manipulated, and (this is a question) most PBers, who like most people would rather watch paint dry.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.


    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    It’s not unreasonable.

    They have said - not a formal offer - that negotiations would be on the basis of a deal that would be the same structure as the other medical professionals

    If there is no landing zone for a deal you don’t have to counter an offer
    Brexit has cost most in this country dearly. It makes perfect sense that while we have this Brexit government in office the public hold them to account. Go for the big pay rises. Like this selfish amoral government have shown it's every man for himself
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.
    If one or two people had put their hands up, then perhaps a few more would have followed. Not many but a few.

    Since no-one did you can't necessarily conclude that no-one believes Boris (although that might indeed be the case) but that no-one had the confidence to put up their hand up to say so, particularly because a microphone might have immediately been stuffed in their faces to explain themselves had they done so in the face of a hostile audience.

    This is why we have a secret ballot.
    I can assure you that if @HYUFD had been there, then he would have raised his hand.
    I remember a conference I was at when the speaker asked, who here would raise court proceedings for £10k that was owed to yourselves, seeking to make the point that costs so often dwarf the principal at that level and why were we so routinely doing this for clients if we wouldn't do it for ourselves. I was the only one who put my hand up which generated laughter and a comment from the speaker who I knew. Didn't bother me but I wasn't on national TV.

    I wouldn't have put my hand up in response to that question because we all know that Boris is lying and that he just didn't care. It is remarkable we are still contriving ways to debate this self evident fact.
  • Yes, last night’s QT was, on the face of it, very, very bad for Red Wall Tories.

    Much lolz when the one-time anti-Corbo voter told the Tory minister to “shut his gob”…

    Have watched a few clips. Bemused voter says he is fed up with ministers not giving answers and lists the issues they are dodging. Minister given another go by Fiona Bruce, and proceeds to not answer the question and tries to tell the voter what his issues actually are - which is the PMs list and not what he said.

    Voter asking the question is not amused...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,564
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.

    The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.

    But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.

    Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,215
    edited March 2023

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    Well, yes.
    But remember this about people who voted Conservative in December 2019; many - most? - did so not out of enthusiasm for Boris but horror of the alternative. We voted Boris knowing he might have driven the country into the ground but also that unlike his counterpart in the Labour Party he wouldn't have actively been trying to do so.
    I reckon if you'd asked a similar question on the day after the election you'd have got a similarly damning result. No-one was expecting feats of great competence or honesty.

    I know PB isn't representative, but I got a lot of pushback at the time when I pointed out Johnson's obvious incompetence and dishonesty on here. The interesting political phenomenon is how easily Conservatives can ditch their earlier enthusiasms and pretend they never happened. All parties do this of course, but Conservatives seem to be that much more ruthless and, if you will, shameless.
    Johnson served his initial purpose, which was to bed-block Corbyn. He was what we had at the time, so had to be supported in that task.

    When he proved unable to step up to the role of being Prime Minister, he needed to be moved on, as I was one of the first Conservatives on here to call for.

    That Rishi didn't get to step straight into his shoes was an abberation I had no part in, but was quickly corrected. I am happy to extend my support for Rishi through the foreseeable future, and lend my weight to getting him re-elected. I personally think he has a greater claim to be morally fit for the post than someone who spent three years in the Shadow Cabinet sat next to a Labour leader who failed to act on anti-semitisim running through his party.
    And- remember this (below)?

    Do you think Tories may bring this up in the campaign??

    https://brexitcentral.com/starmer-must-account-coordinating-foreign-powers-opposed-government-policy/
  • rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.
    If one or two people had put their hands up, then perhaps a few more would have followed. Not many but a few.

    Since no-one did you can't necessarily conclude that no-one believes Boris (although that might indeed be the case) but that no-one had the confidence to put up their hand up to say so, particularly because a microphone might have immediately been stuffed in their faces to explain themselves had they done so in the face of a hostile audience.

    This is why we have a secret ballot.
    I can assure you that if @HYUFD had been there, then he would have raised his hand.
    He would have raised his hand. Then ask a question where he praises the minister and angrily denounces the voters because actually the party doesn't need their votes actually as actually they aren't true Tories actually as they didn't vote Tory every election.

    And then wonder why they won't vote Tory again. Actually.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.

    The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.

    But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.

    Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
    It's either vote to strike, emigrate, or leave the profession.

    What else can people do when the government refuses to make an opening offer?
  • ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    Also "as inflation drops". Inflation is *rising*
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Indeed.
    It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    edited March 2023
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
    Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.

    Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,219

    FF43 said:

    Cookie said:

    Well, yes.
    But remember this about people who voted Conservative in December 2019; many - most? - did so not out of enthusiasm for Boris but horror of the alternative. We voted Boris knowing he might have driven the country into the ground but also that unlike his counterpart in the Labour Party he wouldn't have actively been trying to do so.
    I reckon if you'd asked a similar question on the day after the election you'd have got a similarly damning result. No-one was expecting feats of great competence or honesty.

    I know PB isn't representative, but I got a lot of pushback at the time when I pointed out Johnson's obvious incompetence and dishonesty on here. The interesting political phenomenon is how easily Conservatives can ditch their earlier enthusiasms and pretend they never happened. All parties do this of course, but Conservatives seem to be that much more ruthless and, if you will, shameless.
    Johnson served his initial purpose, which was to bed-block Corbyn. He was what we had at the time, so had to be supported in that task.

    When he proved unable to step up to the role of being Prime Minister, he needed to be moved on, as I was one of the first Conservatives on here to call for.

    That Rishi didn't get to step straight into his shoes was an abberation I had no part in, but was quickly corrected. I am happy to extend my support for Rishi through the foreseeable future, and lend my weight to getting him re-elected. I personally think he has a greater claim to be morally fit for the post than someone who spent three years in the Shadow Cabinet sat next to a Labour leader who failed to act on anti-semitisim running through his party.
    Up to a point, but only up to a point.

    The Conservatives were in a dismal place in summer 2019, but in large part that was because of the effects of rabble rousers like B Johnson Esq. Like Howard Kirk in The History Man, it's a bit galling for him to claim credit for solving a problem he had a large part in creating.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Social proof that people stopped believing the Boris who cried wolf.
    If one or two people had put their hands up, then perhaps a few more would have followed. Not many but a few.

    Since no-one did you can't necessarily conclude that no-one believes Boris (although that might indeed be the case) but that no-one had the confidence to put up their hand up to say so, particularly because a microphone might have immediately been stuffed in their faces to explain themselves had they done so in the face of a hostile audience.

    This is why we have a secret ballot.
    This is a program where the audience is composed of those more perfomatively opinionated than the average PB commenter.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
    Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
    They get an hourly rate, rather than a basic salary, I didn’t know that. So if they do 60 hours a week, that’s earnings of around £42k rising to £84k after a decade.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
  • Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    Hold on though. Monthly presentations of yearly inflation jiggers this up doesn't it?

    If the price of something is £100 for the whole of a base year x
    And in year x+1 the monthly inflation of that item is 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%. 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 10%. 2%, 2%,
    then this is pound terms is £102, £102, £102, £102, £102, £102, £102,£102, £102, £110, £102, £102

    So the reduction in yearly inflation from month 10 to month 11 (10% to 2%) whilst still positive DOES mean a fall in price (£110 to £102).
    Inflation isn't perfectly linear. There are ALWAYS points where the price drops on the upward curve, and in a deflationary cycle always points where the price rises. Neither of these take away from the fact that prices are being impacted by inflation / deflation.

    What it means is that people feel a brief respite. The price is not as mad as it was, but it is still rising, and is still higher than the point where we started.

    The doublethink at the moment is that some have decided that inflation must be falling because the government have seen off the unions and because fuel prices are off the peak.

    So we get statements about inflation falling. Whilst inflation is rising.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
    Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.

    Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
    Better than civil servants then who enter at the bottom of the pay scale and then never move up. This has led to departments getting creative with pay settlements to give youngsters a bit of help, but, naturally, it's pissed off the generation Xers who are at the top of their pay bands who then get lower pay rises.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
    Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
    They get an hourly rate, rather than a basic salary, I didn’t know that. So if they do 60 hours a week, that’s earnings of around £42k rising to £84k after a decade.
    We used to get Maltese juniors on rotation for broader experience. They won't come now, as the pay cut from their Maltese salary is too much.

  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
    Indeed.
    It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
    Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
    It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.

    The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.

    But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.

    Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
    I take your point but what do you do? The quid pro quo for not striking in such a caring profession is surely that your employer acts responsibly and reasonably. Instead, we seem to have a government who has taken advantage of that reluctance over a period of years to significantly reduce the real value of their pay. There comes a point when the employees surely have to say, enough.

    This isn't to say that the junior doctors arguments are sound or valid in every respect. This entire country has gone through the equivalent of a lost 15 years now in terms of wage growth. A lot of this has been driven by statistical nonsense, what we have seen in a reduction in the number of people earning super salaries in the City which has driven the average down considerably without the majority being worse off at all but the fact is that the country does not earn nearly as much as when financial services were at their peak and there is less money to go around. Trying to restore some hypothetical high point of real terms wages is not a reasonable or "fair" proposition when almost no one else can do so either.

    The NHS is by far the biggest employer in the country, probably the biggest in western Europe. We indulge in silly fantasies about those who work there but they are no different from the rest of us. They want paid a rate for what they do that earns them the standard of living they aspire to. And if their employer won't give it to them they eventually have to act. That's the way of the world.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
    More that on both occasions he has criticised Biden, but not said anything that he would do differently.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    When he proved unable to step up to the role of being Prime Minister, he needed to be moved on, as I was one of the first Conservatives on here to call for.

    ...

    I personally think he has a greater claim to be morally fit for the post than someone who spent three years in the Shadow Cabinet sat next to a Labour leader who failed to act on anti-semitisim running through his party.

    Rishi had the chance to "move BoZo on' and didn't take it, so your hand wringing about sitting next to someone and failing to act is just partisan sophistry
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,717
    Disappointed in Andrew Bailey. He exhorts firms to moderate price increases and workers to reduce wage demands. Shades of Edward Heath trying to control inflation. Inflation however is a monetary phenomenon and it is the BoE's express duty to keep it under control. Interest rates and money supply are the appropriate levers and they are in Bailey's hands.
  • Boris Johnson will step up campaigning in his constituency as concerns grow that he will face a by-election within months if he is sanctioned over the Downing Street lockdown parties scandal.

    The Times has been told that Johnson is already planning for the “worst-case scenario”, a ten-day suspension from the Commons, which could trigger a by-election in Uxbridge & Ruislip.

    Johnson has been more active in the constituency since becoming a backbencher and is campaigning for a new hospital in Hillingdon and a new police station in Uxbridge.

    His efforts have been focused on local issues and his personal brand and he does not mention Rishi Sunak as prime minister on his website at all....

    ...The son of Sue Gray... ...has campaigned for [the Labour candidate] in the constituency.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-partygate-latest-news-rishi-sunak-tory-party-live-2023-w2m6sd0bw
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited March 2023
    Yeah the salary and salary prospects of Junior Doctors is the bit that is important.

    "Junior Doctor" has a £12,000/year shelf stacker sound to it.

    As we know on here because several people pointed it out, the payscale and progression of "Junior Doctors" is something that most people in the country could only dream of. And AIUI there is huge competition to become one.

    Everyone knows they are not getting 35% and they are using the nation's sick as leverage which I suppose they must live with. Oh but Barclay apparently didn't have time in his diary.

    As for @Foxy striking - after all he has shared with us about his position that I'm afraid is hugely disappointing if not at all surprising from someone senior within the NHS. How did people on healthy six figure salaries get a pass from the left. Man the pickets for people earning now or at some time in the future £100k+.

    I don't know about the Met Police but if we could somehow start again with our national health system we absolutely should.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    Fiona Bruce is very good as are most BBC presenters.They have years of experience in getting the right people and giving them the right ethos. Hopefully this won't change now the Johnson/Tory poison has entered the well. The recent signs aren't good
  • Comedy Question Time clip. Sir Howard Davies describing how Boris Johnson would meet with him and then go onto the radio claiming that he had said the opposite to what he actually said.

    Boris Johnson is a brazen, proven, repeated liar. We all know this. We have all the evidence about partygate. We have him openly lying to the enquiry about him lying to parliament and being called out for it by Jenkin and Howard. Yet to declare that he lied to parliament somehow makes me biased...

    https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1639044255942430722
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,564
    Scott_xP said:

    When he proved unable to step up to the role of being Prime Minister, he needed to be moved on, as I was one of the first Conservatives on here to call for.

    ...

    I personally think he has a greater claim to be morally fit for the post than someone who spent three years in the Shadow Cabinet sat next to a Labour leader who failed to act on anti-semitisim running through his party.

    Rishi had the chance to "move BoZo on' and didn't take it, so your hand wringing about sitting next to someone and failing to act is just partisan sophistry
    Except, he didn't have the numbers in the Commons.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
    It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
    But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

    As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432
    I thought this would be a TSE thread about strikes.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
    Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.

    Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
    Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,320

    Sandpit said:

    A BBC public voodoo poll?

    Not really. Aiui the audience is designed to be representative, and it's not as if people could vote more than once. (Or less than never, as it turned out.)
    Never in my life seen a representative BBC audience, anyon ethinking that is CUCKOO.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,564
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.

    The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.

    But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.

    Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
    It's either vote to strike, emigrate, or leave the profession.

    What else can people do when the government refuses to make an opening offer?
    They could come off a completely bonkers 35% starting position. They are never going to get anything like that. If they get a better deal than nurses, people are going to ask "Why?".
  • Yes, last night’s QT was, on the face of it, very, very bad for Red Wall Tories.

    Much lolz when the one-time anti-Corbo voter told the Tory minister to “shut his gob”…

    Found it

    https://twitter.com/implausibleblog/status/1639045921718804481

    I know that the remaining PB Tory diehards get excited when they think the latest bit of sophistry has registered. So do I - because as I have said over and over, red wall voters aren't stupid. They may well be as ill-informed as most voters but they know when they are being patronised and lied to.

    Andrew Bowie was a perfect example of today's modern Tory. When told that voters are fed up with being patted off with spin lines and not engaging on the actual issues (which he lists) Bowie responds by patting him on the head and actually telling him that his actual issues are the ones the PM is chasing because those are the British People's Issues.

    Toast. Sadly for decent people like @Tissue_Price who going off last nights show is in danger of getting demolished,
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432
    geoffw said:

    Disappointed in Andrew Bailey. He exhorts firms to moderate price increases and workers to reduce wage demands. Shades of Edward Heath trying to control inflation. Inflation however is a monetary phenomenon and it is the BoE's express duty to keep it under control. Interest rates and money supply are the appropriate levers and they are in Bailey's hands.

    To be fair to him, what we really need to do is radically increase supply of energy to reduce its cost as that is driving inflation. Sadly that is not on the Government's agenda, and it is gross dereliction of duty. All else is tinkering and hoping for the best.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    TOPPING said:

    Yeah the salary and salary prospects of Junior Doctors is the bit that is important.

    "Junior Doctor" has a £12,000/year shelf stacker sound to it.

    As we know on here because several people pointed it out, the payscale and progression of "Junior Doctors" is something that most people in the country could only dream of. And AIUI there is huge competition to become one.

    Everyone knows they are not getting 35% and they are using the nation's sick as leverage which I suppose they must live with. Oh but Barclay apparently didn't have time in his diary.

    As for @Foxy striking - after all he has shared with us about his position that I'm afraid is hugely disappointing if not at all surprising from someone senior within the NHS. How did people on healthy six figure salaries get a pass from the left. Man the pickets for people earning now or at some time in the future £100k+.

    I don't know about the Met Police but if we could somehow start again with our national health system we absolutely should.

    I have voted for action short of striking myself, but will support the strikers by refusing cover within my legal and contractual rights.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,662
    Bruce should have then asked who would still vote for Boris and a hefty chunk would.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,386
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
    It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
    But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

    As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
    Well, yes. That’s the point.

    That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,432
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
    It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
    But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

    As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
    Well, yes. That’s the point.

    That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
    'The point' is surely rather that the military support from the US is a loan not a gift, and as a result, Ukraine now has a debt it can never pay off, and is effectively owned by the US.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,219
    Here we go:

    https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england

    29k at the start, 58k at the top of the training scale, just over a decade later.

    A lot, and consultants are paid more.

    But there are plenty on the board who wouldn't get out of bed for that. We just don't hear about them, because their pay and bonuses aren't public.
  • I thought this would be a TSE thread about strikes.

    Yes, I can understand why you could mistake this awesome and subtle pun for one of mine.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
    It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
    But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

    As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
    Well, yes. That’s the point.

    That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
    'The point' is surely rather that the military support from the US is a loan not a gift, and as a result, Ukraine now has a debt it can never pay off, and is effectively owned by the US.
    Owned by the US or owned by Russia? Hmmmmm, tough choice.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
    It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
    But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

    As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
    For the US it's $50bn worth of weapons and you can argue the toss about what that's actually costing them but it's not nothing and about $25bn in cash so far.
  • ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
    It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
    But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

    As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
    Well, yes. That’s the point.

    That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
    'The point' is surely rather that the military support from the US is a loan not a gift, and as a result, Ukraine now has a debt it can never pay off, and is effectively owned by the US.
    I feel your pain.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    kamski said:

    I see DeSantis has clarified his Ukraine remarks
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/23/ron-desantis-ukraine-war-russia-territorial-dispute

    “I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”

    So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.

    In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
    It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
    But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.

    As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
    Well, yes. That’s the point.

    That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
    Everything there is so massively polarised, much more so than in the UK, with tribes of people taking a view on an issue purely by the people involved. “Social” media has a lot to answer for.

    We know that international aid is high on people’s list of things which government should spend less money, especially at a time of economic uncertainty at home.

    The Biden adminstration’s use of huge numbers galvanises Republican opposition - although if it comes to spending real money on making new stuff for Ukraine, the Republican donors in the military industrial complex will make their view known.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,320
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Fpt @Foxy

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    These sound like pretty toxic negotiations.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/comments/11zhdox/update_bma_negotiations_2232023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

    So the Juniors are out on strike again 11-15 April, the week of the Easter holidays. That is going to be a problem, with a lot of leave booked.

    They refused to even discuss anything less than a 35% increase. That’s not serious
    Barclay refused to make any offer at all. The BMA position is an opening position.
    According to the BBC they were offered a structure of a pay rise from April and a one off base payment

    If someone’s open position is ridiculous sometimes the right thing is not to counter
    No, that is the offer to the nurses and other AFC staff. No offer has been made for medical staff at all.
    “On Monday, thousands of junior doctors in England will start a 72 hour strike. They want a 35% pay rise”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-64907379

    That’s pretty bloody clear to me.

    Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats

    But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.

    They are just being unreasonable
    And as inflation drops,
    No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.

    It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
    If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
    On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.

    https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1638964128617312256?t=-Za_H5r1BvQbzqJYFJX88A&s=19

    The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.

    Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.

    So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
    No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
    The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.

    The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.

    But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.

    Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
    I take your point but what do you do? The quid pro quo for not striking in such a caring profession is surely that your employer acts responsibly and reasonably. Instead, we seem to have a government who has taken advantage of that reluctance over a period of years to significantly reduce the real value of their pay. There comes a point when the employees surely have to say, enough.

    This isn't to say that the junior doctors arguments are sound or valid in every respect. This entire country has gone through the equivalent of a lost 15 years now in terms of wage growth. A lot of this has been driven by statistical nonsense, what we have seen in a reduction in the number of people earning super salaries in the City which has driven the average down considerably without the majority being worse off at all but the fact is that the country does not earn nearly as much as when financial services were at their peak and there is less money to go around. Trying to restore some hypothetical high point of real terms wages is not a reasonable or "fair" proposition when almost no one else can do so either.

    The NHS is by far the biggest employer in the country, probably the biggest in western Europe. We indulge in silly fantasies about those who work there but they are no different from the rest of us. They want paid a rate for what they do that earns them the standard of living they aspire to. And if their employer won't give it to them they eventually have to act. That's the way of the world.
    The other point is that doctors are guaranteed to be on big bucks after a few tough years , the majority of people will earn the same for their whole lives. Lots of talk about their 1st year salary but no mention that within 10 years they will be on big money compared to most people. Deserve a pay rise but asking 35% is just taking the mickey.
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