Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.
The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.
But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.
Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
It's either vote to strike, emigrate, or leave the profession.
What else can people do when the government refuses to make an opening offer?
Barclay says the junior doctors have been offered the same terms as have been accepted by the other trade unions. I don't know who is telling the truth. I wouldn't trust either side. I've come across several examples of unions lying to their members to build support for strikes. I don't trust employers to tell the truth either.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.
As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
Well, yes. That’s the point.
That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
Toxified by Trump.
I really wish he had lost in 2016, the world would be in a better place today.
Trump would have been a curious footnote in history rather than the most dangerous man in America, if not the world.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
They get an hourly rate, rather than a basic salary, I didn’t know that. So if they do 60 hours a week, that’s earnings of around £42k rising to £84k after a decade.
Do they not also get uplifts between 1 and 2 times depending on when the hours worked are.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.
As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
Well, yes. That’s the point.
That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
Toxified by Trump.
I really wish he had lost in 2016, the world would be in a better place today.
Trump would have been a curious footnote in history rather than the most dangerous man in America, if not the world.
I know that the remaining PB Tory diehards get excited when they think the latest bit of sophistry has registered. So do I - because as I have said over and over, red wall voters aren't stupid. They may well be as ill-informed as most voters but they know when they are being patronised and lied to.
Andrew Bowie was a perfect example of today's modern Tory. When told that voters are fed up with being patted off with spin lines and not engaging on the actual issues (which he lists) Bowie responds by patting him on the head and actually telling him that his actual issues are the ones the PM is chasing because those are the British People's Issues.
Toast. Sadly for decent people like @Tissue_Price who going off last nights show is in danger of getting demolished,
@Tissue_price is a decent bloke socially, but did back the Truss. Gone on an 8% swing.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.
As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
Well, yes. That’s the point.
That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
Toxified by Trump.
I really wish he had lost in 2016, the world would be in a better place today.
Trump would have been a curious footnote in history rather than the most dangerous man in America, if not the world.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Officials drawing up boundaries which saw a town council cut in half admit it was down to a "collection of human errors" which included not passing on an email flagging to the first mistake.
A review of ward boundaries incorrectly allocated Ingleby Barwick Town Council six councillors instead of 12.
The Local Government Boundary Commission for England has apologised.
Review manager Richard Otterway said there was a "succession of human errors at each stage of our checking process".
"They occurred in a way which has never happened before, in quite a remarkable way really," he said.
As the error was not spotted until after it was included in an electoral changes order, which went to Parliament, it means it cannot be changed before May's election, meaning only six councillors can be voted in.
Disappointed in Andrew Bailey. He exhorts firms to moderate price increases and workers to reduce wage demands. Shades of Edward Heath trying to control inflation. Inflation however is a monetary phenomenon and it is the BoE's express duty to keep it under control. Interest rates and money supply are the appropriate levers and they are in Bailey's hands.
To be fair to him, what we really need to do is radically increase supply of energy to reduce its cost as that is driving inflation. Sadly that is not on the Government's agenda, and it is gross dereliction of duty. All else is tinkering and hoping for the best.
No, the price of energy is not the cause of inflation. Insofar as it affects the general price level it is because the money supply has increased to accommodate it. Whatever ensues in the scenario you paint the cost of energy in terms of other goods or services foregone to obtain it must rise. To keep the value of money stable (i.e. avoid inflation) other prices must fall in money terms.
Officials drawing up boundaries which saw a town council cut in half admit it was down to a "collection of human errors" which included not passing on an email flagging to the first mistake.
A review of ward boundaries incorrectly allocated Ingleby Barwick Town Council six councillors instead of 12.
The Local Government Boundary Commission for England has apologised.
Review manager Richard Otterway said there was a "succession of human errors at each stage of our checking process".
"They occurred in a way which has never happened before, in quite a remarkable way really," he said.
As the error was not spotted until after it was included in an electoral changes order, which went to Parliament, it means it cannot be changed before May's election, meaning only six councillors can be voted in.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
They get an hourly rate, rather than a basic salary, I didn’t know that. So if they do 60 hours a week, that’s earnings of around £42k rising to £84k after a decade.
We used to get Maltese juniors on rotation for broader experience. They won't come now, as the pay cut from their Maltese salary is too much.
As ever, it’s a question of supply and demand. Either we can operate an NHS on these pay rates (including by doing extra things like penal changes if you leave after medical school within X years because we paid for much of it) or we can’t and we need to pay more.
In and of itself, the “fairness” or otherwise of real terms pay cuts is irrelevant because the whole public sector has had them on that scale, and we clearly can’t make everyone whole.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.
The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.
But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.
Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
Sorry but the Government has made a political choice to uplift unearned wages by inflation.
So why should those working for a living settle for less than inflation?
If pensions and other benefits were getting slashed by 9% in real terms then we would be "all in it together" but why should people going out to work for a living see their wages decline to pay for those who aren't? And from a Conservative government no less.
Officials drawing up boundaries which saw a town council cut in half admit it was down to a "collection of human errors" which included not passing on an email flagging to the first mistake.
A review of ward boundaries incorrectly allocated Ingleby Barwick Town Council six councillors instead of 12.
The Local Government Boundary Commission for England has apologised.
Review manager Richard Otterway said there was a "succession of human errors at each stage of our checking process".
"They occurred in a way which has never happened before, in quite a remarkable way really," he said.
As the error was not spotted until after it was included in an electoral changes order, which went to Parliament, it means it cannot be changed before May's election, meaning only six councillors can be voted in.
I originally thought that Boris would survive - yes found guilty but with a less than 2 week suspension. But that performance has proven not only that he misled parliament, but he proved himself a congenital liar and showed contempt to the committee in the process. He is going to get a 4 or 6 week suspension - but an expulsion may now be on the cards! Good riddance.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
I have no views on junior doctor's pay, except that all pay disputes are only comprehensible if the case is made for differentials with other occupations. Who should get relatively less than me, and who more, and how much and why? I'll have a long wait.
But on debt there is a general point. Martin Lewis often points out that the total of the debt is irrelevant. It is in fact a graduate tax at a fixed % of earnings, not the debt, and the 'debt' is something most people will never pay off except the very wealthy, about whom we need not lose sleep.
So the sociology graduate from Grim Northern University is in the same unhappy boat as the Oxford medic, but usually with lower pay.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.
The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.
But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.
Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
Sorry but the Government has made a political choice to uplift unearned wages by inflation.
So why should those working for a living settle for less than inflation?
If pensions and other benefits were getting slashed by 9% in real terms then we would be "all in it together" but why should people going out to work for a living see their wages decline to pay for those who aren't? And from a Conservative government no less.
Because if we had not uprated benefits in line with inflation then people would have died? The amounts are very modest.
Had to make a phone call in French yesterday to book a restaurant. Took hours to psych myself up. All going so well until they asked for my phone number and I realised I was going to have to count up from 1 each time to remember the numbers. Mortifying. Still thinking about it.
If I get lunch on Tuesday it’ll be an absolute miracle
Not a snowball’s chance in hell I was going to be able to produce ‘28th’ from the depths of my brain sludge, so god knows which Tuesday I’ve booked for
Disappointed in Andrew Bailey. He exhorts firms to moderate price increases and workers to reduce wage demands. Shades of Edward Heath trying to control inflation. Inflation however is a monetary phenomenon and it is the BoE's express duty to keep it under control. Interest rates and money supply are the appropriate levers and they are in Bailey's hands.
To be fair to him, what we really need to do is radically increase supply of energy to reduce its cost as that is driving inflation. Sadly that is not on the Government's agenda, and it is gross dereliction of duty. All else is tinkering and hoping for the best.
No, the price of energy is not the cause of inflation. Insofar as it affects the general price level it is because the money supply has increased to accommodate it. Whatever ensues in the scenario you paint the cost of energy in terms of other goods or services foregone to obtain it must rise. To keep the value of money stable (i.e. avoid inflation) other prices must fall in money terms.
That would be an interesting, and immensely destructive experiment. Amazing that no one has ever tried it.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
All politics is relative. Following T May and in the 2019 election Boris was not a good choice, just the least worst available for PM and government. In 2019 GE the second worst choice was Jezza. There were no other choices.
Now Boris isn't even the second worst choice for PM. That unhappy position is held by Sunak, with the least worst being SKS.
Officials drawing up boundaries which saw a town council cut in half admit it was down to a "collection of human errors" which included not passing on an email flagging to the first mistake.
A review of ward boundaries incorrectly allocated Ingleby Barwick Town Council six councillors instead of 12.
The Local Government Boundary Commission for England has apologised.
Review manager Richard Otterway said there was a "succession of human errors at each stage of our checking process".
"They occurred in a way which has never happened before, in quite a remarkable way really," he said.
As the error was not spotted until after it was included in an electoral changes order, which went to Parliament, it means it cannot be changed before May's election, meaning only six councillors can be voted in.
However will Ingleby Barwick cope with only a half-sized parish council? Stockton appears to suffer very badly from its parish councils being bonkers. Ingleby has a councillor who said bad weather was the fault of the gayers. Thornaby elected me, and before that calamity had a succession of employment tribunal disasters. Yarm has had the town clerk having to wear a body cam for protection when a spat between warring independent groups got pushy, Billingham has been beset by governance issues and only just survived a vote to abolish it.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
All politics is relative. Following T May and in the 2019 election Boris was not a good choice, just the least worst available for PM and government. In 2019 GE the second worst choice was Jezza. There were no other choices.
Now Boris isn't even the second worst choice for PM. That unhappy position is held by Sunak, with the least worst being SKS.
That and, although most on here refuse to accept it, Boris is charming and likeable for many in a way most politicians aren’t.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
Fast forward two years and I wonder if your post will be adapted for Starmer ...?
“Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get shot of the Tories and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”.
On junior doctors, my worry actually is that the damage is done... the staff shortages from poor wages exacerbate the situation and make UK an unappealing place to be a doctor. Even a pay rise now won't fix that.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
Good morning, one and all. Another point to be considered surely is the age at which a medical student, unpaid and indeed receiving a loan, turns into a junior doctor and receiving a salary. It is I think older than many other graduates.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
An account of Brexit which is at least honest, if somewhat belatedly. Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
Good morning, one and all. Another point to be considered surely is the age at which a medical student, unpaid and indeed receiving a loan, turns into a junior doctor and receiving a salary. It is I think older than many other graduates.
Only if we also consider earnings potential. As noted above, under the current system the system of your loan is completely irrelevant.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
Up yours sunshine, this grumpy old git has worked very hard for 50 years and harder than junior Docs and more hours as well. Lots of people do teh smane and never get a decent reward for it I know I am lucky and so should those junior doctors who will be on 60 - 120 K a year in the future. So 3 very high earners in his family and the guy is lying through his teeth about them struggling to get a cup of tea, give me a break.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.
The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.
But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.
Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
Sorry but the Government has made a political choice to uplift unearned wages by inflation.
So why should those working for a living settle for less than inflation?
If pensions and other benefits were getting slashed by 9% in real terms then we would be "all in it together" but why should people going out to work for a living see their wages decline to pay for those who aren't? And from a Conservative government no less.
Because if we had not uprated benefits in line with inflation then people would have died? The amounts are very modest.
Disappointed in Andrew Bailey. He exhorts firms to moderate price increases and workers to reduce wage demands. Shades of Edward Heath trying to control inflation. Inflation however is a monetary phenomenon and it is the BoE's express duty to keep it under control. Interest rates and money supply are the appropriate levers and they are in Bailey's hands.
To be fair to him, what we really need to do is radically increase supply of energy to reduce its cost as that is driving inflation. Sadly that is not on the Government's agenda, and it is gross dereliction of duty. All else is tinkering and hoping for the best.
No, the price of energy is not the cause of inflation. Insofar as it affects the general price level it is because the money supply has increased to accommodate it. Whatever ensues in the scenario you paint the cost of energy in terms of other goods or services foregone to obtain it must rise. To keep the value of money stable (i.e. avoid inflation) other prices must fall in money terms.
That would be an interesting, and immensely destructive experiment. Amazing that no one has ever tried it.
Well yes of course, it's a thought experiment, not an actual policy. Fluctuations in relative prices are masked by the fall in the value of money a.k.a. inflation. As a nation we choose to sugar the pill by allowing inflation to do that.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
Fast forward two years and I wonder if your post will be adapted for Starmer ...?
“Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get shot of the Tories and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”.
Yup. That’s life. This site is full of people who view political parties like football teams and are life long supporters. Most people aren’t like that - elections are transactional.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.
As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
The weapons provided are either old and due for replacement. Or new production. In either case the Happy Days are here again for the arm manufacturers. Who tend to donate to Republicans.
A theme from a chunk of the Republicans, for a long time, is that the military is actually under resourced in terms of ammunition stocks. The sight of Biden putting out tenders for capacity for making x0,000 artillery shells a month etc is music to their ears.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
All politics is relative. Following T May and in the 2019 election Boris was not a good choice, just the least worst available for PM and government. In 2019 GE the second worst choice was Jezza. There were no other choices.
Now Boris isn't even the second worst choice for PM. That unhappy position is held by Sunak, with the least worst being SKS.
That and, although most on here refuse to accept it, Boris is charming and likeable for many in a way most politicians aren’t.
No, I can see that the charm works on some, and am happy to acknowledge that. Equally you should realise others (probably a growing number now) are completely immune to it.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
An account of Brexit which is at least honest, if somewhat belatedly. Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
Especially when you remember that some of the popularity of Euroscepticism was driven the the lies told by a journalist called Boris.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
His initial remarks were pretty clear and unambiguous in their implications (I dont recall the accusation being that he thought the invasion justified). That's not a clarification he's made it's a shift because he got pushback.
Clarify is one of the most abused words in politics. People use it to mean 'how dare you criticise me for what I said, I meant something else entirely and it's your fault for assuming otherwise'.
On junior doctors, my worry actually is that the damage is done... the staff shortages from poor wages exacerbate the situation and make UK an unappealing place to be a doctor. Even a pay rise now won't fix that.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
Most people, most of the time, don’t want to work abroad. And where we recruit from abroad, we usually still pay higher.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
I have no views on junior doctor's pay, except that all pay disputes are only comprehensible if the case is made for differentials with other occupations. Who should get relatively less than me, and who more, and how much and why? I'll have a long wait.
But on debt there is a general point. Martin Lewis often points out that the total of the debt is irrelevant. It is in fact a graduate tax at a fixed % of earnings, not the debt, and the 'debt' is something most people will never pay off except the very wealthy, about whom we need not lose sleep.
So the sociology graduate from Grim Northern University is in the same unhappy boat as the Oxford medic, but usually with lower pay.
The system stinks, but not just for doctors.
This is one reason why it was a very bad idea and the Liberal Democrats should have stuck to their guns and vetoed it.
I mean, there are other reasons to. Was a self-confessed perjurer and disgraced oil baron who was rather fortunate in his judge the right person to lead the review, for example?
Or, was it wise that only vice chancellors were consulted instead of university teaching staff, actuaries and students?
And should we have put in place a system of debt that even a cursory analysis of the figures shows will never be repaid and then let unis budget on the assumption it would all be repaid?
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.
As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
For the US it's $50bn worth of weapons and you can argue the toss about what that's actually costing them but it's not nothing and about $25bn in cash so far.
Which in the context of the US seems pretty low for what they are getting out of it in terms of degrading Russia.
Absolutely their politicians should debate any such policy that significant, but it can feel very shortsighted.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
An account of Brexit which is at least honest, if somewhat belatedly. Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
We had to carry out the amputation, who cares if we botched it and you're now suffering from gangrene. Allegations that we may have whipped off the wrong limb are utter slander.
If junior doctors' pay is so poor, how come places at med schools are so massively over subscribed?
Also, if it helps, I’m willing to be a GP. I’ve watched mine in operation and I’m just as good at using google to diagnose and then look up the usual dose.
On junior doctors, my worry actually is that the damage is done... the staff shortages from poor wages exacerbate the situation and make UK an unappealing place to be a doctor. Even a pay rise now won't fix that.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
Most people, most of the time, don’t want to work abroad. And where we recruit from abroad, we usually still pay higher.
There’s a quarter of a million Brits, living abroad where I do, who would beg to differ.
If junior doctors' pay is so poor, how come places at med schools are so massively over subscribed?
Also, if it helps, I’m willing to be a GP. I’ve watched mine in operation and I’m just as good at using google to diagnose and then look up the usual dose.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.
As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
Well, yes. That’s the point.
That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
'The point' is surely rather that the military support from the US is a loan not a gift, and as a result, Ukraine now has a debt it can never pay off, and is effectively owned by the US.
The US has a debt to China it can't pay off, and are owned by them too no doubt?
Besides, even if its true do you think Ukraine would not choose that freely right now? They don't have a great many alternatives.
Like any political choice, only more literally, they try to survive today and deal with the costs of choices tomorrow.
When he proved unable to step up to the role of being Prime Minister, he needed to be moved on, as I was one of the first Conservatives on here to call for.
...
I personally think he has a greater claim to be morally fit for the post than someone who spent three years in the Shadow Cabinet sat next to a Labour leader who failed to act on anti-semitisim running through his party.
Rishi had the chance to "move BoZo on' and didn't take it, so your hand wringing about sitting next to someone and failing to act is just partisan sophistry
It's a weak argument when levelled at either Sunak or Starmer. Neither would be where they are now had they not held their noses as they sat in close proximity to their respective "stinker" leaders.
Now one can cast about and claim that hanging around with anti-Semites and racial stereotyping Islamaphobes (hiding under a veil of "satire") is not a good look, but who has ever reached the top of the greasy pole without selling their soul to Satan?
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
All politics is relative. Following T May and in the 2019 election Boris was not a good choice, just the least worst available for PM and government. In 2019 GE the second worst choice was Jezza. There were no other choices.
Now Boris isn't even the second worst choice for PM. That unhappy position is held by Sunak, with the least worst being SKS.
That and, although most on here refuse to accept it, Boris is charming and likeable for many in a way most politicians aren’t.
No, I can see that the charm works on some, and am happy to acknowledge that. Equally you should realise others (probably a growing number now) are completely immune to it.
Yeah but he’s served his purpose now. He is no longer needed to charm them.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters? We should listen to you, yoedethur and Dixie on teaching? We should listen to turbo, bondegezou and me(?!) on academic matters and science We should listen to foxy and Franklyn on health issues We should listen to TSE, David etc on matters legal? We should listen to Malc on scotch and turnips? We should listen to Nick on Westminster affairs and politics?
Yeah the salary and salary prospects of Junior Doctors is the bit that is important.
"Junior Doctor" has a £12,000/year shelf stacker sound to it.
As we know on here because several people pointed it out, the payscale and progression of "Junior Doctors" is something that most people in the country could only dream of. And AIUI there is huge competition to become one.
Everyone knows they are not getting 35% and they are using the nation's sick as leverage which I suppose they must live with. Oh but Barclay apparently didn't have time in his diary.
As for @Foxy striking - after all he has shared with us about his position that I'm afraid is hugely disappointing if not at all surprising from someone senior within the NHS. How did people on healthy six figure salaries get a pass from the left. Man the pickets for people earning now or at some time in the future £100k+.
I don't know about the Met Police but if we could somehow start again with our national health system we absolutely should.
I have voted for action short of striking myself, but will support the strikers by refusing cover within my legal and contractual rights.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
The Junior's are hardly alone in suffering that annual recurring event.
The "need" for a real terms rise is applicable to many.
But those many aren't in a position to leverage the suffering of sick people to force their cause.
Like I said, reprehensible from a "caring" profession.
It's either vote to strike, emigrate, or leave the profession.
What else can people do when the government refuses to make an opening offer?
Barclay says the junior doctors have been offered the same terms as have been accepted by the other trade unions. I don't know who is telling the truth. I wouldn't trust either side. I've come across several examples of unions lying to their members to build support for strikes. I don't trust employers to tell the truth either.
No, that isn't true. The Nurses and aaFC offer has not been extended to medical staff. It remains at 2%, a 9% real terms pay cut.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
An account of Brexit which is at least honest, if somewhat belatedly. Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
We had to carry out the amputation, who cares if we botched it and you're now suffering from gangrene. Allegations that we may have whipped off the wrong limb are utter slander.
Bizarrely this also came up in the news, complete with London tribunal:
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters? We should listen to you, yoedethur and Dixie on teaching? We should listen to turbo, bondegezou and me(?!) on academic matters and science We should listen to foxy and Franklyn on health issues We should listen to TSE, David etc on matters legal? We should listen to Malc on scotch and turnips? We should listen to Nick on Westminster affairs and politics?
Nah, away with you, you heretic!
I'm just finishing a book on the many problems in education.
I was toying with the idea of calling it 'We've had enough - experts.'
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Why on earth do you suppose that it is so competitive to become a junior doctor.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Oh undoubtedly. A lot of people won't care if some are more egregious about it. A relative of mine is spitting mad about Boris's enemies just being interested in taking him down.
Rather than get into the principle of his actions I just remarked that its politics and he shouldn't have given his enemies such an opportunity.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Why on earth do you suppose that it is so competitive to become a junior doctor.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
An account of Brexit which is at least honest, if somewhat belatedly. Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
We had to carry out the amputation, who cares if we botched it and you're now suffering from gangrene. Allegations that we may have whipped off the wrong limb are utter slander.
Bizarrely this also came up in the news, complete with London tribunal:
On junior doctors, my worry actually is that the damage is done... the staff shortages from poor wages exacerbate the situation and make UK an unappealing place to be a doctor. Even a pay rise now won't fix that.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
Most people, most of the time, don’t want to work abroad. And where we recruit from abroad, we usually still pay higher.
4/10 junior doctors planning to leave as soon as they can (bmj survey). We already have shortages.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
An account of Brexit which is at least honest, if somewhat belatedly. Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
We had to carry out the amputation, who cares if we botched it and you're now suffering from gangrene. Allegations that we may have whipped off the wrong limb are utter slander.
Bizarrely this also came up in the news, complete with London tribunal:
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
An account of Brexit which is at least honest, if somewhat belatedly. Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
“Belatedly”? I’m not a politician (they have to pretend to believe it all) so I’d have said that to you since 2016. I wanted out (or to lose the referendum very narrowly) for quite hard to campaign on sovereignty related reasons. That was never going to win a referendum so I was very happy to see a showman use all sorts of other crap to get it over the line. Happens all the time at elections. Bit sad we had to have such a strong break but it was necessary in the end. We can now slowly go “half in” bit by bit.
Comedy Question Time clip. Sir Howard Davies describing how Boris Johnson would meet with him and then go onto the radio claiming that he had said the opposite to what he actually said.
He could join the police federation with that sort of behaviour.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Why on earth do you suppose that it is so competitive to become a junior doctor.
ChatGPT can't do the job?
Like @biggles I have sat patiently while my GP googled my symptoms.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
An account of Brexit which is at least honest, if somewhat belatedly. Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
We had to carry out the amputation, who cares if we botched it and you're now suffering from gangrene. Allegations that we may have whipped off the wrong limb are utter slander.
Bizarrely this also came up in the news, complete with London tribunal:
On junior doctors, my worry actually is that the damage is done... the staff shortages from poor wages exacerbate the situation and make UK an unappealing place to be a doctor. Even a pay rise now won't fix that.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
Most people, most of the time, don’t want to work abroad. And where we recruit from abroad, we usually still pay higher.
4/10 junior doctors planning to leave as soon as they can (bmj survey). We already have shortages.
Don’t believe them. Easy to say.
But, as noted above, this is about supply and demand. Introduce some penal fees on those leaving the NHS before we get the costs of their tuition back and if we still can’t man the NHS, pay them more.
Correcting for below inflation rises for ten years is a non-starter on fairness grounds because you then have to do it for every public sector employee.
On junior doctors, my worry actually is that the damage is done... the staff shortages from poor wages exacerbate the situation and make UK an unappealing place to be a doctor. Even a pay rise now won't fix that.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
Most people, most of the time, don’t want to work abroad. And where we recruit from abroad, we usually still pay higher.
4/10 junior doctors planning to leave as soon as they can (bmj survey). We already have shortages.
"as soon as they can" - you mean this afternoon? Or is there a tie in that you are not allowed to leave given the training, etc?
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters? We should listen to you, yoedethur and Dixie on teaching? We should listen to turbo, bondegezou and me(?!) on academic matters and science We should listen to foxy and Franklyn on health issues We should listen to TSE, David etc on matters legal? We should listen to Malc on scotch and turnips? We should listen to Nick on Westminster affairs and politics?
Nah, away with you, you heretic!
I'm just finishing a book on the many problems in education.
I was toying with the idea of calling it 'We've had enough - experts.'
The problem with most expert educational commentators is their only qualification is they attended school (most likely a private school) between the ages of 4 and 18. Our very own senior education commentator, HYUFD of course fulfills this CV requirement.
Asking for a show of hands is an exercise in social proof, not polling.
Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing to say that Boris isn't a liar.
Maybe more interesting would be to ask if he is more of a liar than other people, or other politicians. I would say absolutely yes. How many jobs has he lost for telling porkies? He has the "gift" of being able to shamelessly lie about everything. But I guess there would be a few in any audience who would say sure he lies, but so do most politicians.
Plus: “Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get us out of europe and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”. My view.
An account of Brexit which is at least honest, if somewhat belatedly. Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
We had to carry out the amputation, who cares if we botched it and you're now suffering from gangrene. Allegations that we may have whipped off the wrong limb are utter slander.
Bizarrely this also came up in the news, complete with London tribunal:
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.
As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
Well, yes. That’s the point.
That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
Toxified by Trump.
I really wish he had lost in 2016, the world would be in a better place today.
Trump would have been a curious footnote in history rather than the most dangerous man in America, if not the world.
What's remarkable is just how much he was able to capture the party. Americans don't have leaders the opposition but its sure felt like they have since he lost, even people like Pence who have reason to be furious with him are very cautious in criticism, and typically get into line along with everyone else.
That's why he wins the nomination, because ultimately the big hitters remain too frightened to take him on directly in a consistent way, and if you support him as much as thru demonstrably do, and if you think he was cheated of victory last time, and most claim to believe that, then why not support him?
On junior doctors, my worry actually is that the damage is done... the staff shortages from poor wages exacerbate the situation and make UK an unappealing place to be a doctor. Even a pay rise now won't fix that.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
Most people, most of the time, don’t want to work abroad. And where we recruit from abroad, we usually still pay higher.
4/10 junior doctors planning to leave as soon as they can (bmj survey). We already have shortages.
Don’t believe them. Easy to say.
But, as noted above, this is about supply and demand. Introduce some penal fees on those leaving the NHS before we get the costs of their tuition back and if we still can’t man the NHS, pay them more.
Correcting for below inflation rises for ten years is a non-starter on fairness grounds because you then have to do it for every public sector employee.
Don't want to become a doctor on the prospect of a miserable six figure salary and no tea? Fine. Fuck off.
Plenty in the queue behind you who can put up with such privations.
On junior doctors, my worry actually is that the damage is done... the staff shortages from poor wages exacerbate the situation and make UK an unappealing place to be a doctor. Even a pay rise now won't fix that.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
Most people, most of the time, don’t want to work abroad. And where we recruit from abroad, we usually still pay higher.
There’s a quarter of a million Brits, living abroad where I do, who would beg to differ.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
His initial remarks were pretty clear and unambiguous in their implications (I dont recall the accusation being that he thought the invasion justified). That's not a clarification he's made it's a shift because he got pushback.
Clarify is one of the most abused words in politics. People use it to mean 'how dare you criticise me for what I said, I meant something else entirely and it's your fault for assuming otherwise'.
Biden has structured a lot of the spending on weapons politically.
For example the M1 tank factory was really looking for work. The contract to re-work tanks for Ukraine was a real “get well” for them. Which specifically made a couple of Republicans very, very happy. They’ll not want that touched.
M1s for Ukraine will need spare parts, refurbishment and replacement when lost. That’s a nice, ongoing thing for that factory. And some happy politicians.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Why on earth do you suppose that it is so competitive to become a junior doctor.
Comedy Question Time clip. Sir Howard Davies describing how Boris Johnson would meet with him and then go onto the radio claiming that he had said the opposite to what he actually said.
He could join the police federation with that sort of behaviour.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.
As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
Well, yes. That’s the point.
That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
'The point' is surely rather that the military support from the US is a loan not a gift, and as a result, Ukraine now has a debt it can never pay off, and is effectively owned by the US.
Owned by the US or owned by Russia? Hmmmmm, tough choice.
It's not a great choice, and sadly it's the only one the Ukrainians have.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters? We should listen to you, yoedethur and Dixie on teaching? We should listen to turbo, bondegezou and me(?!) on academic matters and science We should listen to foxy and Franklyn on health issues We should listen to TSE, David etc on matters legal? We should listen to Malc on scotch and turnips? We should listen to Nick on Westminster affairs and politics?
Nah, away with you, you heretic!
I'm just finishing a book on the many problems in education.
I was toying with the idea of calling it 'We've had enough - experts.'
The problem with most expert educational commentators is their only qualification is they attended school (most likely a private school) between the ages of 4 and 18. Our very own senior education commentator, HYUFD of course fulfills this CV requirement.
I don't mind the commentators. Any more than I mind any other third rate pub bore.
The problem is that the civil servants in charge are equally ignorant and so smug in their belief they had an outstanding education at private school and Russell Group university they are utterly-pigheaded about their ignorance.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters?
Please don't. Some tit wankers always feel the need to give their balls a tug when my opinion doesn't accord with their hopes and dreams.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
His initial remarks were pretty clear and unambiguous in their implications (I dont recall the accusation being that he thought the invasion justified). That's not a clarification he's made it's a shift because he got pushback.
Clarify is one of the most abused words in politics. People use it to mean 'how dare you criticise me for what I said, I meant something else entirely and it's your fault for assuming otherwise'.
As Sir Humphrey noted, a clarification is not to make things clear, it is to put you in the clear.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters? We should listen to you, yoedethur and Dixie on teaching? We should listen to turbo, bondegezou and me(?!) on academic matters and science We should listen to foxy and Franklyn on health issues We should listen to TSE, David etc on matters legal? We should listen to Malc on scotch and turnips? We should listen to Nick on Westminster affairs and politics?
Nah, away with you, you heretic!
We should always listen to those with direct knowledge and experience of an issue. But we shouldn't simply delegate our opinion on the related matter to them either.
So long as there is some shared understanding of factual matters an outside and informed perspective can on occasion be more on the money than those in the thick of it.
That is meant to be how politics works after all. External but informed people setting policy taking account of the big picture for society.
They forget the informed bit a lot. Especially if they have an ideology.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters?
Please don't. Some tit wankers always feel the need to give their balls a tug when my opinion doesn't accord with their hopes and dreams.
As mighty mixed metaphors go, that's a good one!
Or do they have their balls on the tits? Mysterious practices possibly involving the story @Carnyx linked to?
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters?
Please don't. Some tit wankers always feel the need to give their balls a tug when my opinion doesn't accord with their hopes and dreams.
As mighty mixed metaphors go, that's a good one!
Or do they have their balls on the tits? Mysterious practices possibly involving the story @Carnyx linked to?
It's a chirp that I stole, or rather adapted for the Internet, from Shoresy.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
Up yours sunshine, this grumpy old git has worked very hard for 50 years and harder than junior Docs and more hours as well. Lots of people do teh smane and never get a decent reward for it I know I am lucky and so should those junior doctors who will be on 60 - 120 K a year in the future. So 3 very high earners in his family and the guy is lying through his teeth about them struggling to get a cup of tea, give me a break.
Look Malc, be reasonable.
Sure, there's 'tea' on wards, but it's the stuff their parents (and the patients - yuck!) drink, made with tea and probably with cows' milk. Where is your hard working right-on junior doc to get their herbal tea/green tea or skinny decaff latte with oat milk while on shift?
And yep, there might even be toast, too. But avocados?
(For avoidance of doubt, the above is not intended as serious)
Disappointed in Andrew Bailey. He exhorts firms to moderate price increases and workers to reduce wage demands. Shades of Edward Heath trying to control inflation. Inflation however is a monetary phenomenon and it is the BoE's express duty to keep it under control. Interest rates and money supply are the appropriate levers and they are in Bailey's hands.
To be fair to him, what we really need to do is radically increase supply of energy to reduce its cost as that is driving inflation. Sadly that is not on the Government's agenda, and it is gross dereliction of duty. All else is tinkering and hoping for the best.
No, the price of energy is not the cause of inflation. Insofar as it affects the general price level it is because the money supply has increased to accommodate it. Whatever ensues in the scenario you paint the cost of energy in terms of other goods or services foregone to obtain it must rise. To keep the value of money stable (i.e. avoid inflation) other prices must fall in money terms.
I don't think this is true. Prices have increased because costs of doing business have increased. Whether that's frying your chips, heating your spa, running your factory, charging your hair clippers - the cost of energy is at the basis of it all.
Well, yes. But remember this about people who voted Conservative in December 2019; many - most? - did so not out of enthusiasm for Boris but horror of the alternative. We voted Boris knowing he might have driven the country into the ground but also that unlike his counterpart in the Labour Party he wouldn't have actively been trying to do so. I reckon if you'd asked a similar question on the day after the election you'd have got a similarly damning result. No-one was expecting feats of great competence or honesty.
I know PB isn't representative, but I got a lot of pushback at the time when I pointed out Johnson's obvious incompetence and dishonesty on here. The interesting political phenomenon is how easily Conservatives can ditch their earlier enthusiasms and pretend they never happened. All parties do this of course, but Conservatives seem to be that much more ruthless and, if you will, shameless.
‘We voted for Boris but didn’t inhale the bullshit’’ seems a common defence which is about as convincing an alibi as it was in its original context. The years of stout defence on here of the FLSOJ’s various crimes & misdemeanours makes it even less credible.
It is the attempts to uncouple Johnson from the Party and particularly Sunak that is particularly sick making. Fortunately it has no chance of working but the brass neck is something to behold
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters?
Please don't. Some tit wankers always feel the need to give their balls a tug when my opinion doesn't accord with their hopes and dreams.
As mighty mixed metaphors go, that's a good one!
Or do they have their balls on the tits? Mysterious practices possibly involving the story @Carnyx linked to?
It's a chirp that I stole, or rather adapted for the Internet, from Shoresy.
On junior doctors, my worry actually is that the damage is done... the staff shortages from poor wages exacerbate the situation and make UK an unappealing place to be a doctor. Even a pay rise now won't fix that.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
Most people, most of the time, don’t want to work abroad. And where we recruit from abroad, we usually still pay higher.
4/10 junior doctors planning to leave as soon as they can (bmj survey). We already have shortages.
Don’t believe them. Easy to say.
But, as noted above, this is about supply and demand. Introduce some penal fees on those leaving the NHS before we get the costs of their tuition back and if we still can’t man the NHS, pay them more.
Correcting for below inflation rises for ten years is a non-starter on fairness grounds because you then have to do it for every public sector employee.
Don't want to become a doctor on the prospect of a miserable six figure salary and no tea? Fine. Fuck off.
Plenty in the queue behind you who can put up with such privations.
There are not that many in the queue because the BMA insists on limits to numbers of medical school places.
“I just don’t think that’s a sufficient interest for us to escalate more involvement. I would not want to see American troops involved there. But the idea that I think somehow Russia was justified [in invading] – that’s nonsense.”
So hard to see how he differs from Biden on this.
In that his about face was entirely a matter of political convenience ?
It'll be up to Congress anyway no matter who is POTUS next year won't it? They'll have to decide if they want to keep pumping $50bn/year worth of weapons into Ukraine.
But it’s not costing them anywhere near $50bn, that’s what really annoying about the debate in the US.
As an example, the successful HIMARS systems are old, almost obsolete in American terms, and were due to be replaced anyway in the next couple of years. Putting a huge dollar value on them is misrepresentative, and drives a lot of the opposition in the US to helping the Ukranians.
Well, yes. That’s the point.
That said, all of American public discourse at the moment is thoroughly toxic.
Toxified by Trump.
I really wish he had lost in 2016, the world would be in a better place today.
Trump would have been a curious footnote in history rather than the most dangerous man in America, if not the world.
What's remarkable is just how much he was able to capture the party. Americans don't have leaders the opposition but its sure felt like they have since he lost, even people like Pence who have reason to be furious with him are very cautious in criticism, and typically get into line along with everyone else.
That's why he wins the nomination, because ultimately the big hitters remain too frightened to take him on directly in a consistent way, and if you support him as much as thru demonstrably do, and if you think he was cheated of victory last time, and most claim to believe that, then why not support him?
Yes. Trump wins the nomination because he is a force of nature. Politically he is Untouchable and Unstoppable.
We have to take a few steps back and ask how America got itself into this mess. Trump clearly lost the 2020 election heavily, yet a substantial proportion of the country believe he won (because he says so). Trump clearly has some legal troubles but his supporters see *any* action against him as a political witch hunt (because he says so). Trump is a huge liability in office and corrupts every part of government he touches, yet is seen to be draining the swamp of government.
So how can other candidates stop him? Because he is unpopular? Incompetent? A crook? A loser?
The question is can Biden keepittogether long enough to beat The Donald again. Perhaps he might consider a better VP candidate this time as you do wonder if he will make the end of his second term.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
We should listen to anyone but Dura and TOPPING on military matters We should listen to TOPPING on teaching We should listen to TOPPING on academic matters and science We should listen to TOPPING on health We should listen to TOPPING on legal We should listen to TOPPING on Scotland We should listen to TOPPING on politics and everything else
A slight edit to keep it simple so people aren't confused.
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters? We should listen to you, yoedethur and Dixie on teaching? We should listen to turbo, bondegezou and me(?!) on academic matters and science We should listen to foxy and Franklyn on health issues We should listen to TSE, David etc on matters legal? We should listen to Malc on scotch and turnips? We should listen to Nick on Westminster affairs and politics?
Nah, away with you, you heretic!
I'm just finishing a book on the many problems in education.
I was toying with the idea of calling it 'We've had enough - experts.'
The problem with most expert educational commentators is their only qualification is they attended school (most likely a private school) between the ages of 4 and 18. Our very own senior education commentator, HYUFD of course fulfills this CV requirement.
I don't mind the commentators. Any more than I mind any other third rate pub bore.
The problem is that the civil servants in charge are equally ignorant and so smug in their belief they had an outstanding education at private school and Russell Group university they are utterly-pigheaded about their ignorance.
While of course the comprehensive educated Liz Truss has just proved to be the most outstanding Prime Minister of our lifetimes, a leader who will live down the ages!!
Part of the issue seems to be that a specific campaign group focused only on increasing pay won a majority of seats
But where you have got one union demanding 35% when even one else is getting mid single digits plus a one off payment there is no basis for negotiation.
They are just being unreasonable
And as inflation drops,
No, no, no. Inflation dropping does NOT eliminate the need for pay rises. Deflation is what does that.
It’s exasperating when people make this error. Almost as bad as that stupid ‘average energy bills are capped at X.’ Who the fuck cares? Give us the actual price per unit and standing charge rate.
If the junior doctors think they have the muscle to get a massively above current inflation settlement to try and make up for a series of under inflation settlements, let them try. But no government can cave to that. And as we are seeing, they won't even discuss the possibility.
On the contrary, the BMA has said 35% (pay restoration to 2008 levels) is their opening position and objective. It is Barclay that is refusing to even make an offer. That is unreasonable.
The Juniors got 2% last year, with 11% CPI, a real terms pay cut of 9%, equivalent to a month's pay in the year. No wonder they voted 98% to strike, and the strike was so solid.
Barclay refusing to even make any sort of counter offer, and pissing them about on negotiations is why they announced the strike over the Easter week.
So junior doctor's lost a month's pay. The economy suffered a once in a generation shock, due to the combined effects of Covid and Ukraine. Most people suffered a shock to their personal incomes as a result. That you think using suffering of sick people gives a special case for getting your way when others can't is rather reprehensible.
No, the Juniors loss of a month's pay each year is an annual recurring event. Hence the need for a real terms rise.
What’s the starting salary of a junior doctor, and what is their annual increment in the first five years?
Starting rate is £14 per hour at F1, going to £28 per hour with 10 years experience.
Ultimately though it is about market forces. If you don't pay enough, you don't get the staff. Isn't that what Brexit was about? Creating a high wage, high skills workforce?
Ah so I have my facts/perception wrong. After 10 years a JD is earning £70k? (28 x 10 x 250)?
The way that junior doctors are treated is scandalous, and it is not just the pathetic pay but the bullying culture of management.
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
Sounds like some bollocks in there, I don't belie for a second they cannot get tea, wards all have facilities to make tea , drinks etc. They also get up to 2x rates for unsocial , extra hours etc. They should be required to provide a minimum period of service for the amount of money spent training them for their 6 figure futures. Sounds like a lots of spoilt brats gong into it thinking it is a cushy number.
Who to believe?
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
What you're suggesting is dangerous in the extreme!
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters? We should listen to you, yoedethur and Dixie on teaching? We should listen to turbo, bondegezou and me(?!) on academic matters and science We should listen to foxy and Franklyn on health issues We should listen to TSE, David etc on matters legal? We should listen to Malc on scotch and turnips? We should listen to Nick on Westminster affairs and politics?
Nah, away with you, you heretic!
We should always listen to those with direct knowledge and experience of an issue. But we shouldn't simply delegate our opinion on the related matter to them either.
So long as there is some shared understanding of factual matters an outside and informed perspective can on occasion be more on the money than those in the thick of it.
That is meant to be how politics works after all. External but informed people setting policy taking account of the big picture for society.
They forget the informed bit a lot. Especially if they have an ideology.
Comments
They start with very substantial debts having studied for six years; in most jobs there will be irregular and antisocial hours, which means that they need to have a car which is reliable (there isn't much public transport when a shift finishes at 2 a.m). Frequent changes of hospital with all the disruption and expense of moving. They have to pay £420 per annum to the GMC and to pay substantial charges for some of the training courses which are compulsory , and for their postgraduate exams. If they work an antisocial shift they have 30 minutes pay deducted because they are supposed to have a break after six hours; they don't get the break because the work is continuous but they still get the money cut. Frequently no facilities at night even for a cup of tea. Not provided with proper PPE during Covid. No allocated car parking, and indeed usually have to pay the hospital for it. Need I go on.
Of my recent, excellent, trainees, several have taken up consultant jobs abroad.
My daughter is an FY1, as is my son in law. They are bright and hard-working. He was a professional sportsman before he studied medicine, she plays international sport in a competitive and physical sport; they are not shrinking violets. In fact they are exactly the sort of doctors that the future NHS needs. They are already looking at moving overseas when they have completed their training. Pay for doctors in the Republic of Ireland is twice that of the NHS. Pay in Canada, Australia, NZ, Middle East even higher and plenty of vacancies.
The mood among the junior doctors is absolute determination. The 98% vote for strike action is unprecedented.
I really wish he had lost in 2016, the world would be in a better place today.
Trump would have been a curious footnote in history rather than the most dangerous man in America, if not the world.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11895649/Officers-American-Bully-dog-savaged-police-horse-owner-insists-acted-self-defence.html
*ba dum tish*
Officials drawing up boundaries which saw a town council cut in half admit it was down to a "collection of human errors" which included not passing on an email flagging to the first mistake.
A review of ward boundaries incorrectly allocated Ingleby Barwick Town Council six councillors instead of 12.
The Local Government Boundary Commission for England has apologised.
Review manager Richard Otterway said there was a "succession of human errors at each stage of our checking process".
"They occurred in a way which has never happened before, in quite a remarkable way really," he said.
As the error was not spotted until after it was included in an electoral changes order, which went to Parliament, it means it cannot be changed before May's election, meaning only six councillors can be voted in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-65047165
In and of itself, the “fairness” or otherwise of real terms pay cuts is irrelevant because the whole public sector has had them on that scale, and we clearly can’t make everyone whole.
So why should those working for a living settle for less than inflation?
If pensions and other benefits were getting slashed by 9% in real terms then we would be "all in it together" but why should people going out to work for a living see their wages decline to pay for those who aren't? And from a Conservative government no less.
In fact, certain breeds of dog seem to be popular among the terrible people.
But that performance has proven not only that he misled parliament, but he proved himself a congenital liar and showed contempt to the committee in the process. He is going to get a 4 or 6 week suspension - but an expulsion may now be on the cards! Good riddance.
But on debt there is a general point. Martin Lewis often points out that the total of the debt is irrelevant. It is in fact a graduate tax at a fixed % of earnings, not the debt, and the 'debt' is something most people will never pay off except the very wealthy, about whom we need not lose sleep.
So the sociology graduate from Grim Northern University is in the same unhappy boat as the Oxford medic, but usually with lower pay.
The system stinks, but not just for doctors.
A trainer and parent of doctors?
Or a grumpy old git who regularly makes it clear that he deserves his wealth and that most other people don't?
Had to make a phone call in French yesterday to book a restaurant. Took hours to psych myself up. All going so well until they asked for my phone number and I realised I was going to have to count up from 1 each time to remember the numbers. Mortifying. Still thinking about it.
If I get lunch on Tuesday it’ll be an absolute miracle
Not a snowball’s chance in hell I was going to be able to produce ‘28th’ from the depths of my brain sludge, so god knows which Tuesday I’ve booked for
https://twitter.com/CharlotteIvers/status/1639184208114626561
Amazing that no one has ever tried it.
Now Boris isn't even the second worst choice for PM. That unhappy position is held by Sunak, with the least worst being SKS.
Truly bonkers politics.
“Sure he lies, but I wanted him to get shot of the Tories and he did. He was a means to an end and that needed lies to be told to get over the line. But he has served his purpose for now”.
Same is true for other health professions but doctors particularly have more global options.
HYUFD will have to ensure he's wearing holey socks in tribute to his lord and liege.
Another point to be considered surely is the age at which a medical student, unpaid and indeed receiving a loan, turns into a junior doctor and receiving a salary. It is I think older than many other graduates.
Astonishing that it should steadily be losing public support.
So 3 very high earners in his family and the guy is lying through his teeth about them struggling to get a cup of tea, give me a break.
A theme from a chunk of the Republicans, for a long time, is that the military is actually under resourced in terms of ammunition stocks. The sight of Biden putting out tenders for capacity for making x0,000 artillery shells a month etc is music to their ears.
Equally you should realise others (probably a growing number now) are completely immune to it.
Clarify is one of the most abused words in politics. People use it to mean 'how dare you criticise me for what I said, I meant something else entirely and it's your fault for assuming otherwise'.
I mean, there are other reasons to. Was a self-confessed perjurer and disgraced oil baron who was rather fortunate in his judge the right person to lead the review, for example?
Or, was it wise that only vice chancellors were consulted instead of university teaching staff, actuaries and students?
And should we have put in place a system of debt that even a cursory analysis of the figures shows will never be repaid and then let unis budget on the assumption it would all be repaid?
Absolutely their politicians should debate any such policy that significant, but it can feel very shortsighted.
'Kinell, they're way ahead of mine.
Besides, even if its true do you think Ukraine would not choose that freely right now? They don't have a great many alternatives.
Like any political choice, only more literally, they try to survive today and deal with the costs of choices tomorrow.
Now one can cast about and claim that hanging around with anti-Semites and racial stereotyping Islamaphobes (hiding under a veil of "satire") is not a good look, but who has ever reached the top of the greasy pole without selling their soul to Satan?
We should listen to Dura and Topping on military matters?
We should listen to you, yoedethur and Dixie on teaching?
We should listen to turbo, bondegezou and me(?!) on academic matters and science
We should listen to foxy and Franklyn on health issues
We should listen to TSE, David etc on matters legal?
We should listen to Malc on scotch and turnips?
We should listen to Nick on Westminster affairs and politics?
Nah, away with you, you heretic!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/22/eunuch-maker-appears-london-court-gbh-charges-castration
I was toying with the idea of calling it 'We've had enough - experts.'
Rather than get into the principle of his actions I just remarked that its politics and he shouldn't have given his enemies such an opportunity.
At least he practiced what he preached.
'The court heard Gustavson, who appeared in the dock using a wheelchair, has had his own leg, penis and nipple removed.'
But, as noted above, this is about supply and demand. Introduce some penal fees on those leaving the NHS before we get the costs of their tuition back and if we still can’t man the NHS, pay them more.
Correcting for below inflation rises for ten years is a non-starter on fairness grounds because you then have to do it for every public sector employee.
Sarwar is on a -4 net rating with Scottish voters, Forbes -8, Yousaf -20 and Regan -23.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-leadership-candidates-unpopular-with-voters-gkxmj5hwj
Sturgeon however departs with a very healthy +8 rating
That's why he wins the nomination, because ultimately the big hitters remain too frightened to take him on directly in a consistent way, and if you support him as much as thru demonstrably do, and if you think he was cheated of victory last time, and most claim to believe that, then why not support him?
Plenty in the queue behind you who can put up with such privations.
For example the M1 tank factory was really looking for work. The contract to re-work tanks for Ukraine was a real “get well” for them. Which specifically made a couple of Republicans very, very happy. They’ll not want that touched.
M1s for Ukraine will need spare parts, refurbishment and replacement when lost. That’s a nice, ongoing thing for that factory. And some happy politicians.
https://mobile.twitter.com/arankomatsuzaki/status/1639068705404379137
The problem is that the civil servants in charge are equally ignorant and so smug in their belief they had an outstanding education at private school and Russell Group university they are utterly-pigheaded about their ignorance.
So long as there is some shared understanding of factual matters an outside and informed perspective can on occasion be more on the money than those in the thick of it.
That is meant to be how politics works after all. External but informed people setting policy taking account of the big picture for society.
They forget the informed bit a lot. Especially if they have an ideology.
Or do they have their balls on the tits? Mysterious practices possibly involving the story @Carnyx linked to?
Sure, there's 'tea' on wards, but it's the stuff their parents (and the patients - yuck!) drink, made with tea and probably with cows' milk. Where is your hard working right-on junior doc to get their herbal tea/green tea or skinny decaff latte with oat milk while on shift?
And yep, there might even be toast, too. But avocados?
(For avoidance of doubt, the above is not intended as serious)
We have to take a few steps back and ask how America got itself into this mess. Trump clearly lost the 2020 election heavily, yet a substantial proportion of the country believe he won (because he says so). Trump clearly has some legal troubles but his supporters see *any* action against him as a political witch hunt (because he says so). Trump is a huge liability in office and corrupts every part of government he touches, yet is seen to be draining the swamp of government.
So how can other candidates stop him? Because he is unpopular? Incompetent? A crook? A loser?
The question is can Biden keepittogether long enough to beat The Donald again. Perhaps he might consider a better VP candidate this time as you do wonder if he will make the end of his second term.
We've far too many reasonable people on here