CON MPs will do what’s best for their survival chances? – politicalbetting.com

Malmesbury said:

pm215 said:

Malmesbury said:

There have been a number of statements made to the effect that the heavy MBTs (Leopard II, Challenger II, M1A1) are too heavy for the road/bridge systems of Eastern Europe. We are about to find out.

Did we not think when we designed those tanks that Eastern Europe was a plausible place we might want to use them?

The plan was to fight WWIII in Germany.

Still seems a bit pessimistic to not have entertained the idea that we might do well enough to want to advance beyond the German border...

Nigelb said:

Dura_Ace said:

Selebian said:

AlistairM said:

This gives you an idea of the size difference between a Challenger and a T-55.

⚡️Soon at the front a tank battle 🇺🇦Ukrainian tank Challenger against 🇷🇺Russian tank T-55 Your rates😁

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1638498544981090304

The T55 is clearly just further away

(As a complete ignoramus on tanks, is size itself important? Naively I'd have thought the combination of armour, ability to move quickly and negotiate rough terrain and weaponry determined capability. I can see that larger size probably helps with armour and bridging rough terrain.)

It's irrelevant as there has been very little tank v tank combat in the SMO. Both sides use them as either not very good artillery or to kill infantry. See that Kharkov video from last year where the Russian "Spetsnatz" try to surrender but an American shoots one in the head so they unsurrender then AFU bring up a T-62 to demolish the house they are holed up in. That's a more typical application. Everybody in the video also gets fucked by artillery and nobody can tell which side it's coming from. Also typical.

Typical just means most of the time, though.
On the rare occasions when things move significant distances quickly, by accident or strategy, tanks appear still to be uniquely useful - but only if accompanied by mobile infantry.

Tanks rarely fought tanks, historically - hence the 75mm gun on most Shermans etc.

The Royal Tank Corp worked out the thing about supporting infantry in 1917 - and started building first APCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V_tank#Mark_V.2A

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

The Rwanda deal involves taking an equal number of vulnerable refugees from Rwanda. There are about 100 000 Congolese refugees in Rwanda, so perhaps those deportation flights will not be coming back empty. Arguably that is a safe route.

Anabobazina said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Andy_JS said:

Another over-30% poll showing will please the Tories (even though they're down 1% with this particular pollster from 32% to 31%).

https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1638457233544716289

There does seem to be some recovery in the polling

Sunak needs to take the ERG head on and enact the WF

Indeed if he is seen to be acting in the best interests of the country and NI he should benefit from it

It's MOE but FWIW (not much) the Tory score is down in that poll

Isn't Survation the one that allocates Don't knows as their previous party? Hence swingback already counted?

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

Not according to Macron who in his summit with Sunak affirmed the problem of migration is an EU problem and not only in UK but of course in Italy and elsewhere

Indeed - a pan-European problem. Which we only solve together. Yet you continue to back the non-cooperation shut the border lot and describe the cooperation plan as no policy at all.

williamglenn said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

We have an unusually high acceptance rate compared to other countries.

As a percentage. Not in actual numbers. And doesn't that make the argument against the government lie that all the boat people are economic migrants? If they were, would large percentages successfully claim asylum?

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

Not according to Macron who in his summit with Sunak affirmed the problem of migration is an EU problem and not only in UK but of course in Italy and elsewhere

Indeed - a pan-European problem. Which we only solve together. Yet you continue to back the non-cooperation shut the border lot and describe the cooperation plan as no policy at all.

I support Sunak not the Johnson ERG group as you well know

Foxy said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigelb said:

Dura_Ace said:

Selebian said:

AlistairM said:

This gives you an idea of the size difference between a Challenger and a T-55.

⚡️Soon at the front a tank battle 🇺🇦Ukrainian tank Challenger against 🇷🇺Russian tank T-55 Your rates😁

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1638498544981090304

The T55 is clearly just further away

(As a complete ignoramus on tanks, is size itself important? Naively I'd have thought the combination of armour, ability to move quickly and negotiate rough terrain and weaponry determined capability. I can see that larger size probably helps with armour and bridging rough terrain.)

It's irrelevant as there has been very little tank v tank combat in the SMO. Both sides use them as either not very good artillery or to kill infantry. See that Kharkov video from last year where the Russian "Spetsnatz" try to surrender but an American shoots one in the head so they unsurrender then AFU bring up a T-62 to demolish the house they are holed up in. That's a more typical application. Everybody in the video also gets fucked by artillery and nobody can tell which side it's coming from. Also typical.

Typical just means most of the time, though.
On the rare occasions when things move significant distances quickly, by accident or strategy, tanks appear still to be uniquely useful - but only if accompanied by mobile infantry.

Tanks rarely fought tanks, historically - hence the 75mm gun on most Shermans etc.

The Royal Tank Corp worked out the thing about supporting infantry in 1917 - and started building first APCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V_tank#Mark_V.2A

Indeed, modern armoured doctrine seems to be less Guderian, and more an infantry support role like the French in 1940.

It's a mixture. The reality is mostly not replays of Kursk, though the tanks are designed with that in mind. Hence 73 Easting.

In 1940 tank vs tank battles were rare. Mostly tanks supporting infantry attacks. And generally opposed by anti-tank guns. And that went for the Germans as well. It wasn't huge lines of tanks rolling forward together, but the Germans used tanks in bigger units, rather than a handful or individual vehicles.

JosiasJessop said:

As an aside, the ship that has got drunk in a Leith dry dock (and who hasn't)? is actually notable: it was owned by the late Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft, and was used to discover many shipwrecks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-65038617

As it was in dry dock, I assume someone's found a use for it?

https://www.bairdmaritime.com/work-boat-world/specialised-fields/marine-research-and-training/maritime-archaeology/feature-research-vessel-petrel-on-a-roll-with-historical-shipwreck-finds/

I wonder if it's as easy as flooding the dock? At least if the hull was not being worked on!

pm215 said:

Malmesbury said:

pm215 said:

Malmesbury said:

There have been a number of statements made to the effect that the heavy MBTs (Leopard II, Challenger II, M1A1) are too heavy for the road/bridge systems of Eastern Europe. We are about to find out.

Did we not think when we designed those tanks that Eastern Europe was a plausible place we might want to use them?

The plan was to fight WWIII in Germany.

Still seems a bit pessimistic to not have entertained the idea that we might do well enough to want to advance beyond the German border...

Reasonable evidence that we never intended to threaten Russia, though.

carnforth said:

JosiasJessop said:

As an aside, the ship that has got drunk in a Leith dry dock (and who hasn't)? is actually notable: it was owned by the late Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft, and was used to discover many shipwrecks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-65038617

As it was in dry dock, I assume someone's found a use for it?

https://www.bairdmaritime.com/work-boat-world/specialised-fields/marine-research-and-training/maritime-archaeology/feature-research-vessel-petrel-on-a-roll-with-historical-shipwreck-finds/

I wonder if it's as easy as flooding the dock? At least if the hull was not being worked on!

Possibly, but I'd *guess* that some lower ?weather? decks are now below the water level required to refloat it.

Still, I doubt they need to do anything of the scale that they did at Pearl Harbour:

https://www.navytimes.com/resizer/f5Zql37PJ6sW15Wxq4HlcYyK0mI=/1024x0/filters:format(jpg):quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/archetype/XCHBT64GAZHRPNZCFED6QDT4UY.jpg

LostPassword said:

Andy_JS said:

Is food inflation a good thing wrt the obesity problem, or does it make it worse because people are more likely to eat unhealthy products?

Fairly irrelevant. Consumption of calories has declined. The obesity problem is primarily caused by people now driving everywhere, and working sat at a desk, instead of walking about more and working a job that involves moving around.

You'd do more to solve the obesity problem by mandating that computers had to be powered by dynamos turned by their operators, banning out-of-town shopping centres and banning cars from city centres, then you would achieve by obsessing over food.

I think it’s more complicated than that. Here’s the abstract of a provocative 2022 paper, https://doi.org/10.1093/ajcn/nqac075

Since 1980, obesity prevalence among US adults has soared from 14% to 42%. The commonly accepted explanation is pervasive overeating: ever-increasing energy intake as the population gains weight, year after year. However, evidence does not support this hypothesis. National data on energy intake and energy availability show increases between 1961 and 2000, during modern industrialization of food; but a plateau or declines thereafter—even as obesity continued rising—and while physical activity modestly increased. Thus, Americans appear to be eating relatively less since 2000, for ever-increasing body sizes, as time has progressed. Although both energy intake and energy availability are measured with error, such errors would have to be new since 2000 and systematically increasing over time for these 2 separate, independent measures. Given the tremendous societal consequences of obesity, and failure to date of energy balance–focused interventions to stem the tide, it is critical for the scientific community to consider and test alternative hypotheses. Growing evidence suggests complex, interrelated biological interactions between food processing (including acellular nutrients, depleted prebiotics, additives), gut microbial composition and function, host metabolic expenditure, and intergenerational transmission of risk (including epigenetics, noncoding RNAs, microbial species). In this paradigm, whereas increasing energy intake may have contributed to rising obesity in earlier years, today pervasive adiposity and its physiologic adaptations have created a biological milieu which interacts with industrialized foods to promote escalating obesity, even with stable energy intake—a self-sustaining, difficult-to-reverse cycle. These scientific hypotheses must be rigorously evaluated, because even partial confirmation would dramatically shift and expand current prevention and treatment strategies. Urgent new investment in research is required. Simultaneously, uncertain evidence on the obesity epidemic's primary drivers does not mean there is no evidence on actions that can help, and existing science must be more rapidly translated and refined into clinical, public health, and policy interventions.

Horse_B said:

Driver said:

If Labour has a small boats policy, they don't seem too concerned about people knowing what it is:

The third link down says what the policy is - and you have clicked on it.

Right. But that's only because I happen to be a subscriber so can see behind that particular paywall.

But since I can, here's a couple of extracts:

Labour’s plan to tackle the small boats is centred around greater enforcement of the people smuggling gangs in Europe, more staff to clear the asylum backlog and a new deal with EU countries on returns.

and

Cooper refused to say if a Labour government would repeal the legislation if it wins power at next year’s general election.

Not a policy vacuum, true. Not a major point of difference either. I can understand why they haven't put their SEO team on it.

Whoever is representing the SNP in PMQ's cannot count...

Quite funny.

Driver said:

If Labour has a small boats policy, they don't seem too concerned about people knowing what it is:

From that same search:
https://www.stephenkinnock.co.uk/labours-response-to-the-tories-illegal-migration-bill/

No doubt closer to an election we'll hear significantly more about policy from opposition parties.

RochdalePioneers said:

williamglenn said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

We have an unusually high acceptance rate compared to other countries.

As a percentage. Not in actual numbers. And doesn't that make the argument against the government lie that all the boat people are economic migrants? If they were, would large percentages successfully claim asylum?

Because the criteria are so broad that almost anyone can qualify if they know what to say.

Barnesian said:

Driver said:

Northern_Al said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

Fake news I fear. Labour don't have a policy vacuum on the subject. Yvette Cooper has set out a very clear 'small boats' policy.
Whether you agree with it or not, or think it will work, is a different matter. But it's there.

Then I'm sure you can summarise it for us.

Here is the recently agreed LibDem policy on "small boats":

Liberal Democrats believe that the best way to stop these dangerous crossings is to provide safe and legal routes to sanctuary for those that need it.

We call on the Government to:

Immediately scrap the Illegal Migration Bill.
Fix the broken asylum system by taking powers from the Home Office and establishing a new, dedicated unit to make decisions quicker and more fairly.
Provide safe and legal routes to sanctuary for refugees from all countries, including:
An expanded, properly funded resettlement scheme.
A new scheme for unaccompanied child refugees.
Reuniting unaccompanied children in Europe with family in the UK.
Humanitarian visas to allow asylum seekers to travel the UK to proceed with their claims.

No real surprises there. The question a lot of the public will be asking is what sort of numbers is that likely to mean every year?

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

Not according to Macron who in his summit with Sunak affirmed the problem of migration is an EU problem and not only in UK but of course in Italy and elsewhere

Indeed - a pan-European problem. Which we only solve together. Yet you continue to back the non-cooperation shut the border lot and describe the cooperation plan as no policy at all.

Why do you say "pan-European" and not global?

Driver said:

JosiasJessop said:

Whoever is representing the SNP in PMQ's cannot count...

Quite funny.

Tried to ask a third question?

He said "three former Tory leaders planning to vote down his deal this afternoon."

Although... would IDS count as a third?

williamglenn said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

Not according to Macron who in his summit with Sunak affirmed the problem of migration is an EU problem and not only in UK but of course in Italy and elsewhere

Indeed - a pan-European problem. Which we only solve together. Yet you continue to back the non-cooperation shut the border lot and describe the cooperation plan as no policy at all.

Why do you say "pan-European" and not global?

Because predominantly we have people fleeing African and the near east and coming to Europe.

Barnesian said:

Driver said:

Northern_Al said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

Fake news I fear. Labour don't have a policy vacuum on the subject. Yvette Cooper has set out a very clear 'small boats' policy.
Whether you agree with it or not, or think it will work, is a different matter. But it's there.

Then I'm sure you can summarise it for us.

Here is the recently agreed LibDem policy on "small boats":

Liberal Democrats believe that the best way to stop these dangerous crossings is to provide safe and legal routes to sanctuary for those that need it.

We call on the Government to:

Immediately scrap the Illegal Migration Bill.
Fix the broken asylum system by taking powers from the Home Office and establishing a new, dedicated unit to make decisions quicker and more fairly.
Provide safe and legal routes to sanctuary for refugees from all countries, including:
An expanded, properly funded resettlement scheme.
A new scheme for unaccompanied child refugees.
Reuniting unaccompanied children in Europe with family in the UK.
Humanitarian visas to allow asylum seekers to travel the UK to proceed with their claims.

"for those that need it."

Most of those on the boats don't need it. And even if they do need it, they can get it in France. That's the problem.

Sunak has really improved his PMQ game. I’m not sure it matters all that much, but just an observation.

Carnyx said:

JosiasJessop said:

Driver said:

JosiasJessop said:

Whoever is representing the SNP in PMQ's cannot count...

Quite funny.

Tried to ask a third question?

He said "three former Tory leaders planning to vote down his deal this afternoon."

Although... would IDS count as a third?

Yes, surely, else he'd have saaid 'Tory PMs'.

Yep, apols to the guy then. And the speaker also got it wrong when he corrected him.

Although as he had a second question, you think he would have mentioned there were three, if he was sure there were.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

Not according to Macron who in his summit with Sunak affirmed the problem of migration is an EU problem and not only in UK but of course in Italy and elsewhere

Indeed - a pan-European problem. Which we only solve together. Yet you continue to back the non-cooperation shut the border lot and describe the cooperation plan as no policy at all.

I support Sunak not the Johnson ERG group as you well know

Shut the Border is the Sunak policy.

Stop The Boats is his policy

So let the same number of people come, but not on a boat. Something less visible.

JosiasJessop said:

Carnyx said:

JosiasJessop said:

Driver said:

JosiasJessop said:

Whoever is representing the SNP in PMQ's cannot count...

Quite funny.

Tried to ask a third question?

He said "three former Tory leaders planning to vote down his deal this afternoon."

Although... would IDS count as a third?

Yes, surely, else he'd have saaid 'Tory PMs'.

Yep, apols to the guy then. And the speaker also got it wrong when he corrected him.

Although as he had a second question, you think he would have mentioned there were three, if he was sure there were.

Asking Mr Speaker "Are you sure you can count?" isn't going to go down well, apart from wasting the second question ...

RochdalePioneers said:

williamglenn said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

Not according to Macron who in his summit with Sunak affirmed the problem of migration is an EU problem and not only in UK but of course in Italy and elsewhere

Indeed - a pan-European problem. Which we only solve together. Yet you continue to back the non-cooperation shut the border lot and describe the cooperation plan as no policy at all.

Why do you say "pan-European" and not global?

Because predominantly we have people fleeing African and the near east and coming to Europe.

Do you think this pan-European policy should aim to reduce the number of people coming to Europe or just share the burden between countries?

Driver said:

JosiasJessop said:

Driver said:

JosiasJessop said:

Whoever is representing the SNP in PMQ's cannot count...

Quite funny.

Tried to ask a third question?

He said "three former Tory leaders planning to vote down his deal this afternoon."

Although... would IDS count as a third?

Hard to believe it, but IDS is indeed a former Tory leader.

Yeah, it seems everyone forgot about him. I was actually slightly surprised he was still in parliament. And he's only 68.

bondegezou said:

RobD said:

Nigelb said:

Driver said:

If Labour has a small boats policy, they don't seem too concerned about people knowing what it is:

From that same search:
https://www.stephenkinnock.co.uk/labours-response-to-the-tories-illegal-migration-bill/

No doubt closer to an election we'll hear significantly more about policy from opposition parties.

Two of the three policies are just about working with the EU, which I believe the government is actively trying to do (the recent meeting with Macron, for example). The third is clearing the backlog by hiring more staff. It's hard to see how that stops irregular arrivals.

Promptly processing and sending back those who don’t have a valid claim will create a deterrent effect.

If significant numbers are indeed deemed not to have a valid claim, which hasn't been the case previously.

SandyRentool said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

Not according to Macron who in his summit with Sunak affirmed the problem of migration is an EU problem and not only in UK but of course in Italy and elsewhere

Indeed - a pan-European problem. Which we only solve together. Yet you continue to back the non-cooperation shut the border lot and describe the cooperation plan as no policy at all.

I support Sunak not the Johnson ERG group as you well know

Shut the Border is the Sunak policy.

Stop The Boats is his policy

So let the same number of people come, but not on a boat. Something less visible.

We could offer all the people on the boats a safe route and stop the boats overnight. Nobody is getting on one of these boats because they have other options.

RochdalePioneers said:

SandyRentool said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

Not according to Macron who in his summit with Sunak affirmed the problem of migration is an EU problem and not only in UK but of course in Italy and elsewhere

Indeed - a pan-European problem. Which we only solve together. Yet you continue to back the non-cooperation shut the border lot and describe the cooperation plan as no policy at all.

I support Sunak not the Johnson ERG group as you well know

Shut the Border is the Sunak policy.

Stop The Boats is his policy

So let the same number of people come, but not on a boat. Something less visible.

We could offer all the people on the boats a safe route and stop the boats overnight. Nobody is getting on one of these boats because they have other options.

Stay in France?

Malmesbury said:

FrankBooth said:

Dura_Ace said:

Selebian said:

AlistairM said:

This gives you an idea of the size difference between a Challenger and a T-55.

⚡️Soon at the front a tank battle 🇺🇦Ukrainian tank Challenger against 🇷🇺Russian tank T-55 Your rates😁

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1638498544981090304

The T55 is clearly just further away

(As a complete ignoramus on tanks, is size itself important? Naively I'd have thought the combination of armour, ability to move quickly and negotiate rough terrain and weaponry determined capability. I can see that larger size probably helps with armour and bridging rough terrain.)

It's irrelevant as there has been very little tank v tank combat in the SMO. Both sides use them as either not very good artillery or to kill infantry. See that Kharkov video from last year where the Russian "Spetsnatz" try to surrender but an American shoots one in the head so they unsurrender then AFU bring up a T-62 to demolish the house they are holed up in. That's a more typical application. Everybody in the video also gets fucked by artillery and nobody can tell which side it's coming from. Also typical.

LOL. The size of tanks is irrelevant? I suppose bigger doesn't mean better but it may help. And your point about what 'both sides have done so far' bolstered by a single anecdote ignores the fact that Ukraine are only just now getting modern western tanks. They might not be used in direct opposition but bigger/better tanks may have an improved chance of breaking through the lines compared to what Russia has done. The fact you don't want to address this does give me some hope for Ukrainian success.

The larger size is mostly invested in protection and survivability. So British tanks, when hit are specifically designed not to enter the International Turret Throwing competition that Russian tanks are champions at.

Funny Dura didn't mention that. He's such a stickler for detail.

williamglenn said:

RochdalePioneers said:

SandyRentool said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

I keep hearing that Labour have a policy vacuum. They do not. They have workable proposals which the Tories don't like for political reasons.

Saying "you have no policy" when they do, and your own "policy" is written in crayon is seriously laughable. And yet Braverman says it and you repeat it like it is the gospel truth.

Apart from safe routes which would be overwhelmed they do not have any more than is already being done

Why would safe routes be overwhelmed? We take a mere fraction of the numbers taken by other nations and their safe routes are not overwhelmed.

Not according to Macron who in his summit with Sunak affirmed the problem of migration is an EU problem and not only in UK but of course in Italy and elsewhere

Indeed - a pan-European problem. Which we only solve together. Yet you continue to back the non-cooperation shut the border lot and describe the cooperation plan as no policy at all.

I support Sunak not the Johnson ERG group as you well know

Shut the Border is the Sunak policy.

Stop The Boats is his policy

So let the same number of people come, but not on a boat. Something less visible.

We could offer all the people on the boats a safe route and stop the boats overnight. Nobody is getting on one of these boats because they have other options.

So would that be your policy? Stop the small boats by sending big boats?

The suspicion has to be that the real Labour policy is open borders.

Heathener said:

Morning all. Back from an awesome time away in Asia. Oh wow.

I have a question for @Leon : are you the same Leon author of this:
https://www.audleytravel.com/australasia/region-guides/choosing-your-ideal-south-pacific-island


UK politics feels a bit distant to me at the moment and all I want to remark on for now is that Heathrow is an absolute shithole compared to most international airports out east. And the potholes.

The potholes.

What the hell happened to this country?

We had a Conservative government.

SouthamObserver said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Boris Johnson will enjoy the rest of his life far less than he has enjoyed it up to now.

Yes, he will earn a load of money but he will no longer get the attention he had and he will never again hold high office or be considered someone who could hold high office. Instead, he will be just another yesterday's man, doomed to perform the same act over and over again for the guffawing group of rich fools who will be the only ones interested in hearing it.

Bankers usually.

FrankBooth said:

Barnesian said:

Driver said:

Northern_Al said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Driver said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Roger said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Gallowgate said:

Some good news for once would be appreciated

Conservative polling now at 35% and only 10 points behind Labour.

I am very sceptical about that poll but it does seem as if the conservatives are now in the low thirties and Sunak overtook Starmer as best PM in the red wall seats in yesterday's poll

The circus around Johnson and his devotees is a distraction and is tedious in the extreme

Which was the Red Wall poll?

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1638226510950572053?t=EYBEivqesjMEo0WEIK_3fQ&s=19

A most bizarre poll!

Red Wall Approval Rating-

Sunak -21

Starmer +5

Best PM

Sunak 37%

Starmer 35%

Either the Red Wallers have less comprehension than is even imagined and don't understand the questions or more likely Redfield and Wilton have got their numbers confused

It's perfectly possible to think that Sir Keir is doing a good job as LOTO but would be a shit PM.

To ask both those questions is therefore absurd and demands of the respondents an imagination that makes the question meaningless.

You really mean you do not like a poll that shows Sunak ahead of Starmer in the red wall

Its an interesting poll! If it is accurate then it raises all kinds of questions about why he is ahead - and what it means for the other polling showing all those seats reverting to red.

Put into the context of these other polls it is at least likely that the poll isn't accurate. Which raises separate questions why that is. In either scenario, we should like it because it is interesting...

Hypothesis - the poll is accurate because Sunak has been given some credit for his push talking about Stopping the Boats. As so many red wallers voted Brexit/Tory to stop migration and earn more money I wouldn't be surprised if it was this.

The Tories problem is that the illegal Illegal Migration bill is written in crayon specifically to excite these voters. What it doesn't do is provide any practicable or workable solutions to actually deliver. The clock is already nearly running out on the pledge to deport anyone in 28 days from landing. When nothing is delivered, watch the same red wall voters trash talk Sunak just has quickly as they gave their approval in this poll...

I agree largely with you but it will take time for tangible results and labour have a policy vacuum on the subject

I would also add Lineker gave the subject a huge profile and maybe not the one he wanted

Fake news I fear. Labour don't have a policy vacuum on the subject. Yvette Cooper has set out a very clear 'small boats' policy.
Whether you agree with it or not, or think it will work, is a different matter. But it's there.

Then I'm sure you can summarise it for us.

Here is the recently agreed LibDem policy on "small boats":

Liberal Democrats believe that the best way to stop these dangerous crossings is to provide safe and legal routes to sanctuary for those that need it.

We call on the Government to:

Immediately scrap the Illegal Migration Bill.
Fix the broken asylum system by taking powers from the Home Office and establishing a new, dedicated unit to make decisions quicker and more fairly.
Provide safe and legal routes to sanctuary for refugees from all countries, including:
An expanded, properly funded resettlement scheme.
A new scheme for unaccompanied child refugees.
Reuniting unaccompanied children in Europe with family in the UK.
Humanitarian visas to allow asylum seekers to travel the UK to proceed with their claims.

No real surprises there. The question a lot of the public will be asking is what sort of numbers is that likely to mean every year?

The LD policy is a policy only applicable to parties who don't intend to form a government. It is, in theory, rational, lawful and complete.

It allows anyone with a claim to refugee status to apply to the UK either from their home country or from anywhere else.

That's potentially hundreds of millions of people.

Parties that intend to form a government don't do this. It isn't possible to win an election if you do.