If the polls continue like this can Sunak survive? – politicalbetting.com

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

So if free speech is so important, should people spreading misinformation be silenced or should they be allowed to spread their dangerous output?

They should be free to say* it, of course.

Responsible media should not report unsubstantiated views of one person about things like this, though, particularly not when the person has no particular reason to be thought a good authority on this.

If the head of the RCP comes out with something like this then it probably should be reported, along with his/her subsequent sacking. It was correct to report on Wakefield's paper for example (although incorrect for the Lancet to publish it - they should have done a better job). But random doc (even one with a high profile, TV GP etc) spouting unsubstantiated nonsense should not be presented as viable fact.

*which certainly includes own website, PB, and even Twitter and the like - although the latter clearly has dangers, allowing the posting and simply flagging it as dubious or disputed is, imho, the right balance.

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Nigelb said:

turbotubbs said:

beinndearg said:

ydoethur said:

turbotubbs said:

CarlottaVance said:

Seriously, WTF?

BREAKING BBC News:

Cardiologist says likely contributory factor to excess cardiovascular deaths is covid mRNA vaccine and roll out should be suspended pending an inquiry.

We did it. We broke mainstream broadcast media 🔥🔥🔥

https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1613837487796850688

I hope this is a selective extract quoted out of context where other views were discussed…

I'm pretty sure that the fuckwit MP who was quoting a cardiologist was referring to Malhotra - its possible thats what he is claiming as 'breaking BBC news'.

The man is a class A twunt and should be up before the GMC. Every bit as harmful as Wakefield right now. Maybe he's trying to do a Wakefield and end up with an ageing super-model...

'Fuckwit MP' Doesn't really narrow it down, does it? Any chance you could be more precise?

Andrew Holocaust Bridgen

Who is also excited about Lisa Marie Presley having a heart attack

Family history of heart attacks right there.

Also an acknowledged drug problem.

There is a definite trend on the US anti-vaxxer right to claim every sudden cardiac death as a vaccine case.

Malhotra is a sad case, as he appears to be a doctor with strong communication skills who discovered he enjoyed performing a public health advice role, in which he experienced considerable early success:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra
...in addition to his work as a cardiologist, he has been described as a "highly regarded public health campaigner" and an anti-obesity expert[2] who is "passionate about tackling the companies and policies responsible for creating ... an obesogenic environment".[27] Malhotra explains that his professional work has motivated his public health campaigning:" ..having seen the unspeakable suffering caused by diet-related diseases, I would much rather these patients did not develop them in the first place."[28] In 2013 he was recognized in the inaugural list of the top 50 BME Pioneers in the NHS Health Service Journal, for his research on sugar rich diets and obesity and cardio-vascular disease and for his public health campaigns, including profit-making of big corporations at the expense of public health, unhealthy hospital meals and sale of junk food in hospitals [8] The judges commented that "Yes. He challenges people".[8] In 2014 he was recognized for a second year running in the Health Services Journal top 50 BME Pioneers: described by the judges as "An upcoming star", the entry recognized that he had ignited a debate about over-investigation, over-diagnosis and overmedication and brought media attention to the BMJ's "Too much medicine" campaign.[6]

At the end of 2013, Malhotra won the accolade of being named a "Food Hero" for the Children's Food Campaign for his campaigning against junk food being marketed to children and sugar filled vending machines in hospitals.[27] When Action on Sugar was founded in 2014, he was its first Science Director.[7] Later in that year, his campaigning on sugar led to his being featured in the Evening Standard as being one of ten of London's brightest stars working in science and technology...

He is a (noted) practitioner in his field giving his view of the world. An expert, if I may. Why are you so quick to dismiss expert practitioners when they put forward a view about their own discipline.

Experts are often wrong, if they're just guessing or extrapolating from personal experience and not using evidence. I've not infrequently found that the evidence does not support my original hypothesis about how things work. Even things that are widely 'known' I've sometimes found to not be true when you actually look at the data.

There have been many times when doctors have wanted research into something where they think they are seeing a trend or an effect and a proper study finds that it simply is not there. Most of the doctors I have worked with have been quite happy and accepting of that outcome. A minority prefer to ignore the evidence.

ETA: And sample/observation bias, of course. An ICU nurse friend was completely freaked out ove Covid and wanted everyone locked down completely for as long as possible, because she saw lots of young healthy people dying/almost dying from Covid. Of course, she never saw the young healthy people for whom Covid was no big deal. Cardiac specialists see a lot of people with heart problems, the vast majority of whom will have had a Covid vaccine and, if young, most likely an mRNA vaccine.

Well of all the crazy things I've heard on PB that must be the craziest. Someone who is a practitioner in the field is the expert and arbiter of all matters surrounding that field. Dissent or questioning, far less criticism, will not be tolerated.

Surely the issue here is that it has already been shown that the data he is quoting is flawed. I have no idea whether there is a problem with the mRNA vaccines or not. I am in no position at all to judge. But along with others I am in a position to judge general validity of the data that is being presented. Including people who very clearly died from other causes or who fall outside the range of cases that are supposed to be studied (because of age etc) shows that there is a valid question to be asked about the collection and interpretation of the data. This has to bring his judgement into question.

Nigel_Foremain said:

ydoethur said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

ydoethur said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

TOPPING said:

Nigelb said:

turbotubbs said:

beinndearg said:

ydoethur said:

turbotubbs said:

CarlottaVance said:

Seriously, WTF?

BREAKING BBC News:

Cardiologist says likely contributory factor to excess cardiovascular deaths is covid mRNA vaccine and roll out should be suspended pending an inquiry.

We did it. We broke mainstream broadcast media 🔥🔥🔥

https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1613837487796850688

I hope this is a selective extract quoted out of context where other views were discussed…

I'm pretty sure that the fuckwit MP who was quoting a cardiologist was referring to Malhotra - its possible thats what he is claiming as 'breaking BBC news'.

The man is a class A twunt and should be up before the GMC. Every bit as harmful as Wakefield right now. Maybe he's trying to do a Wakefield and end up with an ageing super-model...

'Fuckwit MP' Doesn't really narrow it down, does it? Any chance you could be more precise?

Andrew Holocaust Bridgen

Who is also excited about Lisa Marie Presley having a heart attack

Family history of heart attacks right there.

Also an acknowledged drug problem.

There is a definite trend on the US anti-vaxxer right to claim every sudden cardiac death as a vaccine case.

Malhotra is a sad case, as he appears to be a doctor with strong communication skills who discovered he enjoyed performing a public health advice role, in which he experienced considerable early success:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra
...in addition to his work as a cardiologist, he has been described as a "highly regarded public health campaigner" and an anti-obesity expert[2] who is "passionate about tackling the companies and policies responsible for creating ... an obesogenic environment".[27] Malhotra explains that his professional work has motivated his public health campaigning:" ..having seen the unspeakable suffering caused by diet-related diseases, I would much rather these patients did not develop them in the first place."[28] In 2013 he was recognized in the inaugural list of the top 50 BME Pioneers in the NHS Health Service Journal, for his research on sugar rich diets and obesity and cardio-vascular disease and for his public health campaigns, including profit-making of big corporations at the expense of public health, unhealthy hospital meals and sale of junk food in hospitals [8] The judges commented that "Yes. He challenges people".[8] In 2014 he was recognized for a second year running in the Health Services Journal top 50 BME Pioneers: described by the judges as "An upcoming star", the entry recognized that he had ignited a debate about over-investigation, over-diagnosis and overmedication and brought media attention to the BMJ's "Too much medicine" campaign.[6]

At the end of 2013, Malhotra won the accolade of being named a "Food Hero" for the Children's Food Campaign for his campaigning against junk food being marketed to children and sugar filled vending machines in hospitals.[27] When Action on Sugar was founded in 2014, he was its first Science Director.[7] Later in that year, his campaigning on sugar led to his being featured in the Evening Standard as being one of ten of London's brightest stars working in science and technology...

He is a (noted) practitioner in his field giving his view of the world. An expert, if I may. Why are you so quick to dismiss expert practitioners when they put forward a view about their own discipline.

I think you might find it hard to find many other cardiologists who would share this view, which does not necessarily make him wrong in his analysis, just that he is very unlikely to be, or that the halting of the rollout would kill more people than those that might appear to have suffered cardiac arrest either coincidentally or in consequence. It is also important to note that just because someone is a cardiologist does not make them immune to being a nutjob. There are a lot of cardiologists in the world, and having met a lot of them I would say only a few are in the slightest bit normal.

In what way are they not normal? Is their manner too hearty?

You always BEAT me to it on puns

I oughta given how much I practice.

You seem to always have the pulse of PB when it comes to such matters

Stop complimenting me, it might make me vein.

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Nigelb said:

turbotubbs said:

beinndearg said:

ydoethur said:

turbotubbs said:

CarlottaVance said:

Seriously, WTF?

BREAKING BBC News:

Cardiologist says likely contributory factor to excess cardiovascular deaths is covid mRNA vaccine and roll out should be suspended pending an inquiry.

We did it. We broke mainstream broadcast media 🔥🔥🔥

https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1613837487796850688

I hope this is a selective extract quoted out of context where other views were discussed…

I'm pretty sure that the fuckwit MP who was quoting a cardiologist was referring to Malhotra - its possible thats what he is claiming as 'breaking BBC news'.

The man is a class A twunt and should be up before the GMC. Every bit as harmful as Wakefield right now. Maybe he's trying to do a Wakefield and end up with an ageing super-model...

'Fuckwit MP' Doesn't really narrow it down, does it? Any chance you could be more precise?

Andrew Holocaust Bridgen

Who is also excited about Lisa Marie Presley having a heart attack

Family history of heart attacks right there.

Also an acknowledged drug problem.

There is a definite trend on the US anti-vaxxer right to claim every sudden cardiac death as a vaccine case.

Malhotra is a sad case, as he appears to be a doctor with strong communication skills who discovered he enjoyed performing a public health advice role, in which he experienced considerable early success:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra
...in addition to his work as a cardiologist, he has been described as a "highly regarded public health campaigner" and an anti-obesity expert[2] who is "passionate about tackling the companies and policies responsible for creating ... an obesogenic environment".[27] Malhotra explains that his professional work has motivated his public health campaigning:" ..having seen the unspeakable suffering caused by diet-related diseases, I would much rather these patients did not develop them in the first place."[28] In 2013 he was recognized in the inaugural list of the top 50 BME Pioneers in the NHS Health Service Journal, for his research on sugar rich diets and obesity and cardio-vascular disease and for his public health campaigns, including profit-making of big corporations at the expense of public health, unhealthy hospital meals and sale of junk food in hospitals [8] The judges commented that "Yes. He challenges people".[8] In 2014 he was recognized for a second year running in the Health Services Journal top 50 BME Pioneers: described by the judges as "An upcoming star", the entry recognized that he had ignited a debate about over-investigation, over-diagnosis and overmedication and brought media attention to the BMJ's "Too much medicine" campaign.[6]

At the end of 2013, Malhotra won the accolade of being named a "Food Hero" for the Children's Food Campaign for his campaigning against junk food being marketed to children and sugar filled vending machines in hospitals.[27] When Action on Sugar was founded in 2014, he was its first Science Director.[7] Later in that year, his campaigning on sugar led to his being featured in the Evening Standard as being one of ten of London's brightest stars working in science and technology...

He is a (noted) practitioner in his field giving his view of the world. An expert, if I may. Why are you so quick to dismiss expert practitioners when they put forward a view about their own discipline.

Experts are often wrong, if they're just guessing or extrapolating from personal experience and not using evidence. I've not infrequently found that the evidence does not support my original hypothesis about how things work. Even things that are widely 'known' I've sometimes found to not be true when you actually look at the data.

There have been many times when doctors have wanted research into something where they think they are seeing a trend or an effect and a proper study finds that it simply is not there. Most of the doctors I have worked with have been quite happy and accepting of that outcome. A minority prefer to ignore the evidence.

ETA: And sample/observation bias, of course. An ICU nurse friend was completely freaked out ove Covid and wanted everyone locked down completely for as long as possible, because she saw lots of young healthy people dying/almost dying from Covid. Of course, she never saw the young healthy people for whom Covid was no big deal. Cardiac specialists see a lot of people with heart problems, the vast majority of whom will have had a Covid vaccine and, if young, most likely an mRNA vaccine.

Well of all the crazy things I've heard on PB that must be the craziest. Someone who is a practitioner in the field is the expert and arbiter of all matters surrounding that field. Dissent or questioning, far less criticism will not be tolerated.

If that's your reading then you must possess one of the strangest sets of reading glasses of anyone on PB.

So you are saying that someone who has spent their working life in a particular field, and has opinions about that particular field, can BE WRONG about that field?

Well I never.

Yes. Is that controversial?

Part of the joy of science is finding out that what you took to be true is not true and there is some other explanation.

If it were not true, there would be no point in doing studies, would there? We'd just ask the nearest expert what to do. Which is, of course, what we did early on in Covid, leading to surface contact being fingered as the likely vector, hand washing essential and prolonged airbourne presence of the virus discounted (all of which were later found to be incorrect with actual evidence).

(Or is my irony meter in bad need of adjustment regarding your posts?)

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Nigelb said:

turbotubbs said:

beinndearg said:

ydoethur said:

turbotubbs said:

CarlottaVance said:

Seriously, WTF?

BREAKING BBC News:

Cardiologist says likely contributory factor to excess cardiovascular deaths is covid mRNA vaccine and roll out should be suspended pending an inquiry.

We did it. We broke mainstream broadcast media 🔥🔥🔥

https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1613837487796850688

I hope this is a selective extract quoted out of context where other views were discussed…

I'm pretty sure that the fuckwit MP who was quoting a cardiologist was referring to Malhotra - its possible thats what he is claiming as 'breaking BBC news'.

The man is a class A twunt and should be up before the GMC. Every bit as harmful as Wakefield right now. Maybe he's trying to do a Wakefield and end up with an ageing super-model...

'Fuckwit MP' Doesn't really narrow it down, does it? Any chance you could be more precise?

Andrew Holocaust Bridgen

Who is also excited about Lisa Marie Presley having a heart attack

Family history of heart attacks right there.

Also an acknowledged drug problem.

There is a definite trend on the US anti-vaxxer right to claim every sudden cardiac death as a vaccine case.

Malhotra is a sad case, as he appears to be a doctor with strong communication skills who discovered he enjoyed performing a public health advice role, in which he experienced considerable early success:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra
...in addition to his work as a cardiologist, he has been described as a "highly regarded public health campaigner" and an anti-obesity expert[2] who is "passionate about tackling the companies and policies responsible for creating ... an obesogenic environment".[27] Malhotra explains that his professional work has motivated his public health campaigning:" ..having seen the unspeakable suffering caused by diet-related diseases, I would much rather these patients did not develop them in the first place."[28] In 2013 he was recognized in the inaugural list of the top 50 BME Pioneers in the NHS Health Service Journal, for his research on sugar rich diets and obesity and cardio-vascular disease and for his public health campaigns, including profit-making of big corporations at the expense of public health, unhealthy hospital meals and sale of junk food in hospitals [8] The judges commented that "Yes. He challenges people".[8] In 2014 he was recognized for a second year running in the Health Services Journal top 50 BME Pioneers: described by the judges as "An upcoming star", the entry recognized that he had ignited a debate about over-investigation, over-diagnosis and overmedication and brought media attention to the BMJ's "Too much medicine" campaign.[6]

At the end of 2013, Malhotra won the accolade of being named a "Food Hero" for the Children's Food Campaign for his campaigning against junk food being marketed to children and sugar filled vending machines in hospitals.[27] When Action on Sugar was founded in 2014, he was its first Science Director.[7] Later in that year, his campaigning on sugar led to his being featured in the Evening Standard as being one of ten of London's brightest stars working in science and technology...

He is a (noted) practitioner in his field giving his view of the world. An expert, if I may. Why are you so quick to dismiss expert practitioners when they put forward a view about their own discipline.

Experts are often wrong, if they're just guessing or extrapolating from personal experience and not using evidence. I've not infrequently found that the evidence does not support my original hypothesis about how things work. Even things that are widely 'known' I've sometimes found to not be true when you actually look at the data.

There have been many times when doctors have wanted research into something where they think they are seeing a trend or an effect and a proper study finds that it simply is not there. Most of the doctors I have worked with have been quite happy and accepting of that outcome. A minority prefer to ignore the evidence.

ETA: And sample/observation bias, of course. An ICU nurse friend was completely freaked out ove Covid and wanted everyone locked down completely for as long as possible, because she saw lots of young healthy people dying/almost dying from Covid. Of course, she never saw the young healthy people for whom Covid was no big deal. Cardiac specialists see a lot of people with heart problems, the vast majority of whom will have had a Covid vaccine and, if young, most likely an mRNA vaccine.

Well of all the crazy things I've heard on PB that must be the craziest. Someone who is a practitioner in the field is the expert and arbiter of all matters surrounding that field. Dissent or questioning, far less criticism, will not be tolerated.

Surely the issue here is that it has already been shown that the data he is quoting is flawed. I have no idea whether there is a problem with the mRNA vaccines or not. I am in no position at all to judge. But along with others I am in a position to judge general validity of the data that is being presented. Including people who very clearly died from other causes or who fall outside the range of cases that are supposed to be studied (because of age etc) shows that there is a valid question to be asked about the collection and interpretation of the data. This has to bring his judgement into question.

Yeah as I said I haven't looked at the data in such detail. If he is saying that Pele died as a result of the mRNA vaccine then I would have to put my critical thinking hat on and conclude: unlikely.

I was more interested in the concept of vaccine hesitancy as it is one of those topics on PB for which there can only be one line (cf Russia's invasion of Ukraine).

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Nigelb said:

turbotubbs said:

beinndearg said:

ydoethur said:

turbotubbs said:

CarlottaVance said:

Seriously, WTF?

BREAKING BBC News:

Cardiologist says likely contributory factor to excess cardiovascular deaths is covid mRNA vaccine and roll out should be suspended pending an inquiry.

We did it. We broke mainstream broadcast media 🔥🔥🔥

https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1613837487796850688

I hope this is a selective extract quoted out of context where other views were discussed…

I'm pretty sure that the fuckwit MP who was quoting a cardiologist was referring to Malhotra - its possible thats what he is claiming as 'breaking BBC news'.

The man is a class A twunt and should be up before the GMC. Every bit as harmful as Wakefield right now. Maybe he's trying to do a Wakefield and end up with an ageing super-model...

'Fuckwit MP' Doesn't really narrow it down, does it? Any chance you could be more precise?

Andrew Holocaust Bridgen

Who is also excited about Lisa Marie Presley having a heart attack

Family history of heart attacks right there.

Also an acknowledged drug problem.

There is a definite trend on the US anti-vaxxer right to claim every sudden cardiac death as a vaccine case.

Malhotra is a sad case, as he appears to be a doctor with strong communication skills who discovered he enjoyed performing a public health advice role, in which he experienced considerable early success:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra
...in addition to his work as a cardiologist, he has been described as a "highly regarded public health campaigner" and an anti-obesity expert[2] who is "passionate about tackling the companies and policies responsible for creating ... an obesogenic environment".[27] Malhotra explains that his professional work has motivated his public health campaigning:" ..having seen the unspeakable suffering caused by diet-related diseases, I would much rather these patients did not develop them in the first place."[28] In 2013 he was recognized in the inaugural list of the top 50 BME Pioneers in the NHS Health Service Journal, for his research on sugar rich diets and obesity and cardio-vascular disease and for his public health campaigns, including profit-making of big corporations at the expense of public health, unhealthy hospital meals and sale of junk food in hospitals [8] The judges commented that "Yes. He challenges people".[8] In 2014 he was recognized for a second year running in the Health Services Journal top 50 BME Pioneers: described by the judges as "An upcoming star", the entry recognized that he had ignited a debate about over-investigation, over-diagnosis and overmedication and brought media attention to the BMJ's "Too much medicine" campaign.[6]

At the end of 2013, Malhotra won the accolade of being named a "Food Hero" for the Children's Food Campaign for his campaigning against junk food being marketed to children and sugar filled vending machines in hospitals.[27] When Action on Sugar was founded in 2014, he was its first Science Director.[7] Later in that year, his campaigning on sugar led to his being featured in the Evening Standard as being one of ten of London's brightest stars working in science and technology...

He is a (noted) practitioner in his field giving his view of the world. An expert, if I may. Why are you so quick to dismiss expert practitioners when they put forward a view about their own discipline.

Experts are often wrong, if they're just guessing or extrapolating from personal experience and not using evidence. I've not infrequently found that the evidence does not support my original hypothesis about how things work. Even things that are widely 'known' I've sometimes found to not be true when you actually look at the data.

There have been many times when doctors have wanted research into something where they think they are seeing a trend or an effect and a proper study finds that it simply is not there. Most of the doctors I have worked with have been quite happy and accepting of that outcome. A minority prefer to ignore the evidence.

ETA: And sample/observation bias, of course. An ICU nurse friend was completely freaked out ove Covid and wanted everyone locked down completely for as long as possible, because she saw lots of young healthy people dying/almost dying from Covid. Of course, she never saw the young healthy people for whom Covid was no big deal. Cardiac specialists see a lot of people with heart problems, the vast majority of whom will have had a Covid vaccine and, if young, most likely an mRNA vaccine.

Well of all the crazy things I've heard on PB that must be the craziest. Someone who is a practitioner in the field is the expert and arbiter of all matters surrounding that field. Dissent or questioning, far less criticism will not be tolerated.

If that's your reading then you must possess one of the strangest sets of reading glasses of anyone on PB.

So you are saying that someone who has spent their working life in a particular field, and has opinions about that particular field, can BE WRONG about that field?

Well I never.

Yes. Is that controversial?

Part of the joy of science is finding out that what you took to be true is not true and there is some other explanation.

If it were not true, there would be no point in doing studies, would there? We'd just ask the nearest expert what to do. Which is, of course, what we did early on in Covid, leading to surface contact being fingered as the likely vector, hand washing essential and prolonged airbourne presence of the virus discounted (all of which were later found to be incorrect with actual evidence).

(Or is my irony meter in bad need of adjustment regarding your posts?)

I'll leave it there.

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Nigelb said:

turbotubbs said:

beinndearg said:

ydoethur said:

turbotubbs said:

CarlottaVance said:

Seriously, WTF?

BREAKING BBC News:

Cardiologist says likely contributory factor to excess cardiovascular deaths is covid mRNA vaccine and roll out should be suspended pending an inquiry.

We did it. We broke mainstream broadcast media 🔥🔥🔥

https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1613837487796850688

I hope this is a selective extract quoted out of context where other views were discussed…

I'm pretty sure that the fuckwit MP who was quoting a cardiologist was referring to Malhotra - its possible thats what he is claiming as 'breaking BBC news'.

The man is a class A twunt and should be up before the GMC. Every bit as harmful as Wakefield right now. Maybe he's trying to do a Wakefield and end up with an ageing super-model...

'Fuckwit MP' Doesn't really narrow it down, does it? Any chance you could be more precise?

Andrew Holocaust Bridgen

Who is also excited about Lisa Marie Presley having a heart attack

Family history of heart attacks right there.

Also an acknowledged drug problem.

There is a definite trend on the US anti-vaxxer right to claim every sudden cardiac death as a vaccine case.

Malhotra is a sad case, as he appears to be a doctor with strong communication skills who discovered he enjoyed performing a public health advice role, in which he experienced considerable early success:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra
...in addition to his work as a cardiologist, he has been described as a "highly regarded public health campaigner" and an anti-obesity expert[2] who is "passionate about tackling the companies and policies responsible for creating ... an obesogenic environment".[27] Malhotra explains that his professional work has motivated his public health campaigning:" ..having seen the unspeakable suffering caused by diet-related diseases, I would much rather these patients did not develop them in the first place."[28] In 2013 he was recognized in the inaugural list of the top 50 BME Pioneers in the NHS Health Service Journal, for his research on sugar rich diets and obesity and cardio-vascular disease and for his public health campaigns, including profit-making of big corporations at the expense of public health, unhealthy hospital meals and sale of junk food in hospitals [8] The judges commented that "Yes. He challenges people".[8] In 2014 he was recognized for a second year running in the Health Services Journal top 50 BME Pioneers: described by the judges as "An upcoming star", the entry recognized that he had ignited a debate about over-investigation, over-diagnosis and overmedication and brought media attention to the BMJ's "Too much medicine" campaign.[6]

At the end of 2013, Malhotra won the accolade of being named a "Food Hero" for the Children's Food Campaign for his campaigning against junk food being marketed to children and sugar filled vending machines in hospitals.[27] When Action on Sugar was founded in 2014, he was its first Science Director.[7] Later in that year, his campaigning on sugar led to his being featured in the Evening Standard as being one of ten of London's brightest stars working in science and technology...

He is a (noted) practitioner in his field giving his view of the world. An expert, if I may. Why are you so quick to dismiss expert practitioners when they put forward a view about their own discipline.

Experts are often wrong, if they're just guessing or extrapolating from personal experience and not using evidence. I've not infrequently found that the evidence does not support my original hypothesis about how things work. Even things that are widely 'known' I've sometimes found to not be true when you actually look at the data.

There have been many times when doctors have wanted research into something where they think they are seeing a trend or an effect and a proper study finds that it simply is not there. Most of the doctors I have worked with have been quite happy and accepting of that outcome. A minority prefer to ignore the evidence.

ETA: And sample/observation bias, of course. An ICU nurse friend was completely freaked out ove Covid and wanted everyone locked down completely for as long as possible, because she saw lots of young healthy people dying/almost dying from Covid. Of course, she never saw the young healthy people for whom Covid was no big deal. Cardiac specialists see a lot of people with heart problems, the vast majority of whom will have had a Covid vaccine and, if young, most likely an mRNA vaccine.

Well of all the crazy things I've heard on PB that must be the craziest. Someone who is a practitioner in the field is the expert and arbiter of all matters surrounding that field. Dissent or questioning, far less criticism will not be tolerated.

If that's your reading then you must possess one of the strangest sets of reading glasses of anyone on PB.

So you are saying that someone who has spent their working life in a particular field, and has opinions about that particular field, can BE WRONG about that field?

Well I never.

Yes. Is that controversial?

Part of the joy of science is finding out that what you took to be true is not true and there is some other explanation.

If it were not true, there would be no point in doing studies, would there? We'd just ask the nearest expert what to do. Which is, of course, what we did early on in Covid, leading to surface contact being fingered as the likely vector, hand washing essential and prolonged airbourne presence of the virus discounted (all of which were later found to be incorrect with actual evidence).

(Or is my irony meter in bad need of adjustment regarding your posts?)

I'll leave it there.

Fair enough, but you leave me baffled.

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Selebian said:

TOPPING said:

Nigelb said:

turbotubbs said:

beinndearg said:

ydoethur said:

turbotubbs said:

CarlottaVance said:

Seriously, WTF?

BREAKING BBC News:

Cardiologist says likely contributory factor to excess cardiovascular deaths is covid mRNA vaccine and roll out should be suspended pending an inquiry.

We did it. We broke mainstream broadcast media 🔥🔥🔥

https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1613837487796850688

I hope this is a selective extract quoted out of context where other views were discussed…

I'm pretty sure that the fuckwit MP who was quoting a cardiologist was referring to Malhotra - its possible thats what he is claiming as 'breaking BBC news'.

The man is a class A twunt and should be up before the GMC. Every bit as harmful as Wakefield right now. Maybe he's trying to do a Wakefield and end up with an ageing super-model...

'Fuckwit MP' Doesn't really narrow it down, does it? Any chance you could be more precise?

Andrew Holocaust Bridgen

Who is also excited about Lisa Marie Presley having a heart attack

Family history of heart attacks right there.

Also an acknowledged drug problem.

There is a definite trend on the US anti-vaxxer right to claim every sudden cardiac death as a vaccine case.

Malhotra is a sad case, as he appears to be a doctor with strong communication skills who discovered he enjoyed performing a public health advice role, in which he experienced considerable early success:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aseem_Malhotra
...in addition to his work as a cardiologist, he has been described as a "highly regarded public health campaigner" and an anti-obesity expert[2] who is "passionate about tackling the companies and policies responsible for creating ... an obesogenic environment".[27] Malhotra explains that his professional work has motivated his public health campaigning:" ..having seen the unspeakable suffering caused by diet-related diseases, I would much rather these patients did not develop them in the first place."[28] In 2013 he was recognized in the inaugural list of the top 50 BME Pioneers in the NHS Health Service Journal, for his research on sugar rich diets and obesity and cardio-vascular disease and for his public health campaigns, including profit-making of big corporations at the expense of public health, unhealthy hospital meals and sale of junk food in hospitals [8] The judges commented that "Yes. He challenges people".[8] In 2014 he was recognized for a second year running in the Health Services Journal top 50 BME Pioneers: described by the judges as "An upcoming star", the entry recognized that he had ignited a debate about over-investigation, over-diagnosis and overmedication and brought media attention to the BMJ's "Too much medicine" campaign.[6]

At the end of 2013, Malhotra won the accolade of being named a "Food Hero" for the Children's Food Campaign for his campaigning against junk food being marketed to children and sugar filled vending machines in hospitals.[27] When Action on Sugar was founded in 2014, he was its first Science Director.[7] Later in that year, his campaigning on sugar led to his being featured in the Evening Standard as being one of ten of London's brightest stars working in science and technology...

He is a (noted) practitioner in his field giving his view of the world. An expert, if I may. Why are you so quick to dismiss expert practitioners when they put forward a view about their own discipline.

Experts are often wrong, if they're just guessing or extrapolating from personal experience and not using evidence. I've not infrequently found that the evidence does not support my original hypothesis about how things work. Even things that are widely 'known' I've sometimes found to not be true when you actually look at the data.

There have been many times when doctors have wanted research into something where they think they are seeing a trend or an effect and a proper study finds that it simply is not there. Most of the doctors I have worked with have been quite happy and accepting of that outcome. A minority prefer to ignore the evidence.

ETA: And sample/observation bias, of course. An ICU nurse friend was completely freaked out ove Covid and wanted everyone locked down completely for as long as possible, because she saw lots of young healthy people dying/almost dying from Covid. Of course, she never saw the young healthy people for whom Covid was no big deal. Cardiac specialists see a lot of people with heart problems, the vast majority of whom will have had a Covid vaccine and, if young, most likely an mRNA vaccine.

Well of all the crazy things I've heard on PB that must be the craziest. Someone who is a practitioner in the field is the expert and arbiter of all matters surrounding that field. Dissent or questioning, far less criticism, will not be tolerated.

Surely the issue here is that it has already been shown that the data he is quoting is flawed. I have no idea whether there is a problem with the mRNA vaccines or not. I am in no position at all to judge. But along with others I am in a position to judge general validity of the data that is being presented. Including people who very clearly died from other causes or who fall outside the range of cases that are supposed to be studied (because of age etc) shows that there is a valid question to be asked about the collection and interpretation of the data. This has to bring his judgement into question.

You only have to look at the AZ blood clot issue - which equates to 2 or 3 deaths per million vaccinations - to see how cautious people have really been about vaccine safety, and what nonsense any talk of a cover-up is.

.

Roger said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Roger said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Casino_Royale announcing his departure? Please follow through, at least three people will come back when you go.

Uncalled for and beneath you. CR is one of the best posters on here and the fact you just don't like what he says is your problem not his. Considering the support others have given you on here in the past perhaps you should grow up.

Your 'likes' read like a Brexiteers convention

The right wing bully brigade flocks to these posts like a fly to a shit

They're a block vote that's for sure.

You write that just as if the exact same thing doesn't happen on the other side.

kjh said:

Leon said:

glw said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigelb said:

REPORT: DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO NUKE NORTH KOREA AND THEN BLAME IT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY
Incredibly (seems perfectly credible to me), this wasn’t the only time he reportedly proposed attacking a foreign nation and then pretending the US didn’t do it.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/01/donald-trump-wanted-to-nuke-north-korea-and-blame-someone-else

Ok, own up.

Who sent him a copy of Team America on DVD for Christmas?

I recall that Trump previously suggested another attack by US aircraft in Chinese colours. I makes me think that Trump believes that a literal "false flag" would be all it takes to fool adversary nations, and he's certainly stupid enough for that to be plausible.

Trump is absolutely not stupid

He often appears vague and he is deeply eccentric, and riven with narcissistic personality disorders, but actually stupid? No

Because he thinks outside the box he is often way ahead of his rivals. Cf lab leak

Even here it’s not clear he’s dumb. Taking out the serious military/nuke threat of North Korea with a first strike is a pretty good idea - if it can be done without provoking world war 3 or killing 20 million Koreans

I'm sorry but he is absolutely dumb. Just think of the number of things he has said that is off the wall dumb. My personal favourite was the fact that he thought F35's were actually invisible. I mean it is there to be seen and he said it several times. Let's also not forget the drinking bleach and blowing up hurricanes with atom bombs.

Whether there was a lab leak or not he wasn't saying it because he was inspired. He was saying it because it fitted his agenda.

The only box he is thinking out of is a box of frogs.

In some ways I think he is smart. Or at least cunning. And good at manipulating some people.
But also, like you say, very stupid. Unless the stupidity is feigned and just part of the manipulation...

A solicitor has defended a client accused of "aggressive driving", by arguing that his client has two holes for his anus.

Solicitor Michael Kelleher's client, a carpet-fitter, was charged with driving without due care and attention, when he mounted a kerb and almost hit three men.

The men were standing outside the Castle Inn in Pembroke, Wales, when they saw the carpet-fitter's white van heading towards them. Prosecutor Nia James told Haverfordwest magistrates that although the van narrowly missed the men, "it was travelling too quickly and they could have been seriously hurt."

"This was aggressive driving," James said, adding that other witnesses also expressed concern over the manner of the driving, according to a report in the Western Telegraph.

Kelleher, defending his client said: “This is a hard-working man albeit with a very awkward physical problem. It’s very difficult to think of a way of describing his problem, other than he has two holes for his anus instead of one.”

Kelleher told the magistrates that his client was in the area for a job, and "didn’t know his way around," and ended up driving the wrong way down a road. "This certainly wasn’t aggressive driving but a momentary lapse of concentration.”

The client pleaded guilty to the charge of driving in a public place without due care and attention, and was fined a total of £317.

RollOnFriday contacted Kelleher's firm for comment, but it seems to have taken the Buckingham Palace approach of "never explain", when it comes to this type of defence.

https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/defence-week-solicitor-sticks-man-two-anuses

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Trump and Elon are both morons who have got exceptionally lucky.

I think I disagree with this, to a limit. Just as there are many forms of intelligence, there are many forms of dumbness, and people can be 'intelligent' and knowledgeable in one area, and dumb in others.

In fact, we're all dumb in some areas. It's just that we often see the dumbness of figures who are in the public eye.

Neither Trump or Musk are morons. But like all of us, they can do moronic things at times. And because of their position, their moronic actions matter.

Nigel_Foremain said:

felix said:

Roger said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Casino_Royale announcing his departure? Please follow through, at least three people will come back when you go.

Uncalled for and beneath you. CR is one of the best posters on here and the fact you just don't like what he says is your problem not his. Considering the support others have given you on here in the past perhaps you should grow up.

Your 'likes' read like a Brexiteers convention

What an odd obsession to read people's likes. Hope you didn't have me down as a Brexiteer.

He seems to have put me down as one. It's no problem though, I have always put him down as a twat.

Maybe he is the kind of Remainer for whom everyone else is a Brexiter?

A neighbour of a friend got to that stage. She think anyone who isn't demanding instant rejoin, loudly, all day long, is Nigel Farage. In her mind the Liberal Democrats are Brexiters....

A sort of mirror image of the Brexiters who think that Nigel Farage is a Brussels loving sellout.

JosiasJessop said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Trump and Elon are both morons who have got exceptionally lucky.

I think I disagree with this, to a limit. Just as there are many forms of intelligence, there are many forms of dumbness, and people can be 'intelligent' and knowledgeable in one area, and dumb in others.

In fact, we're all dumb in some areas. It's just that we often see the dumbness of figures who are in the public eye.

Neither Trump or Musk are morons. But like all of us, they can do moronic things at times. And because of their position, their moronic actions matter.

Whatever. The world would nonetheless be a happier place if both of them STFU.

Malmesbury said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

felix said:

Roger said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Casino_Royale announcing his departure? Please follow through, at least three people will come back when you go.

Uncalled for and beneath you. CR is one of the best posters on here and the fact you just don't like what he says is your problem not his. Considering the support others have given you on here in the past perhaps you should grow up.

Your 'likes' read like a Brexiteers convention

What an odd obsession to read people's likes. Hope you didn't have me down as a Brexiteer.

He seems to have put me down as one. It's no problem though, I have always put him down as a twat.

Maybe he is the kind of Remainer for whom everyone else is a Brexiter?

A neighbour of a friend got to that stage. She think anyone who isn't demanding instant rejoin, loudly, all day long, is Nigel Farage. In her mind the Liberal Democrats are Brexiters....

A sort of mirror image of the Brexiters who think that Nigel Farage is a Brussels loving sellout.

I am probably the worst type. I am not remainery enough. I do not wear EU flag underwear and whistle Ode to Joy every morning in the shower

RobD said:

Mexicanpete said:

RobD said:

IanB2 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Casino_Royale announcing his departure? Please follow through, at least three people will come back when you go.

Uncalled for and beneath you. CR is one of the best posters on here and the fact you just don't like what he says is your problem not his. Considering the support others have given you on here in the past perhaps you should grow up.

He is, but he is overly sensitive. These promised flounces come round every so often but the good news is that he generally comes back.

Except he hasn't flounced, you can check his previous comments. That was just made up.

No it isn't.

He made the threat in one of his responses to one of my "partisan troll" posts around an hour ago. He's probably on ConHome as we speak. wishing he wasn't.

I looked back again and could not find any reference to leaving.

He is an avowed leaver though?

Driver said:

.

Roger said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Roger said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Casino_Royale announcing his departure? Please follow through, at least three people will come back when you go.

Uncalled for and beneath you. CR is one of the best posters on here and the fact you just don't like what he says is your problem not his. Considering the support others have given you on here in the past perhaps you should grow up.

Your 'likes' read like a Brexiteers convention

The right wing bully brigade flocks to these posts like a fly to a shit

They're a block vote that's for sure.

You write that just as if the exact same thing doesn't happen on the other side.

I've given you another "like" just to prove we wokerati chaps are even handed.

Mexicanpete said:

Driver said:

.

Roger said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Roger said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Casino_Royale announcing his departure? Please follow through, at least three people will come back when you go.

Uncalled for and beneath you. CR is one of the best posters on here and the fact you just don't like what he says is your problem not his. Considering the support others have given you on here in the past perhaps you should grow up.

Your 'likes' read like a Brexiteers convention

The right wing bully brigade flocks to these posts like a fly to a shit

They're a block vote that's for sure.

You write that just as if the exact same thing doesn't happen on the other side.

I've given you another "like" just to prove we wokerati chaps are even handed.

You have too much of a sense of humour to be part of the wokerati. Unless they have made you an appointment to have it surgically removed?

Nigel_Foremain said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

felix said:

Roger said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Casino_Royale announcing his departure? Please follow through, at least three people will come back when you go.

Uncalled for and beneath you. CR is one of the best posters on here and the fact you just don't like what he says is your problem not his. Considering the support others have given you on here in the past perhaps you should grow up.

Your 'likes' read like a Brexiteers convention

What an odd obsession to read people's likes. Hope you didn't have me down as a Brexiteer.

He seems to have put me down as one. It's no problem though, I have always put him down as a twat.

Maybe he is the kind of Remainer for whom everyone else is a Brexiter?

A neighbour of a friend got to that stage. She think anyone who isn't demanding instant rejoin, loudly, all day long, is Nigel Farage. In her mind the Liberal Democrats are Brexiters....

A sort of mirror image of the Brexiters who think that Nigel Farage is a Brussels loving sellout.

I am probably the worst type. I am not remainery enough. I do not wear EU flag underwear and whistle Ode to Joy every morning in the shower

Wearing EU underwear is soiling The Sacred Flag

Ode to Joy shouldn’t be whistled. Instead, the EU approved version should be played on a HIFi, while you stand in the shower, in full ceremonial dress, head bowed. In joy.

1/10 Remainer

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

Leon said:

glw said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigelb said:

REPORT: DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO NUKE NORTH KOREA AND THEN BLAME IT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY
Incredibly (seems perfectly credible to me), this wasn’t the only time he reportedly proposed attacking a foreign nation and then pretending the US didn’t do it.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/01/donald-trump-wanted-to-nuke-north-korea-and-blame-someone-else

Ok, own up.

Who sent him a copy of Team America on DVD for Christmas?

I recall that Trump previously suggested another attack by US aircraft in Chinese colours. I makes me think that Trump believes that a literal "false flag" would be all it takes to fool adversary nations, and he's certainly stupid enough for that to be plausible.

Trump is absolutely not stupid

He often appears vague and he is deeply eccentric, and riven with narcissistic personality disorders, but actually stupid? No

Because he thinks outside the box he is often way ahead of his rivals. Cf lab leak

Even here it’s not clear he’s dumb. Taking out the serious military/nuke threat of North Korea with a first strike is a pretty good idea - if it can be done without provoking world war 3 or killing 20 million Koreans

I'm sorry but he is absolutely dumb. Just think of the number of things he has said that is off the wall dumb. My personal favourite was the fact that he thought F35's were actually invisible. I mean it is there to be seen and he said it several times. Let's also not forget the drinking bleach and blowing up hurricanes with atom bombs.

Whether there was a lab leak or not he wasn't saying it because he was inspired. He was saying it because it fitted his agenda.

The only box he is thinking out of is a box of frogs.

Trump is certainly no intellectual.

Yet he don't get to be a billionaire and President of the USA by being dumb

..

Trump inherited his billions. And has spent his misspent life pissing them away.

.

turbotubbs said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

So if free speech is so important, should people spreading misinformation be silenced or should they be allowed to spread their dangerous output?

They should be challenged with the evidence. The best way to deal with Nick Griffin was to have him on Question Time. In the current case you have someone with authority (a medic, a cardiologist, presumably a reasonably successful one) who is misusing statistics (at best mistakenly) and anecdote (he retweets other medics who share his beliefs - not hard to find on twitter). This means on twitter people assume he knows what he is talking about ("he's an expert") and they are not always able to see what his data may be rubbish. This extends to the media. Interviews by news anchors will not flush out the fine details.

I don't know why he is doing what he is doing. I will say this though, a fair number of scientists, medics etc rose to prominence through covid. Many of them have developed a vast army of sycophants. I think its become like a drug for some of them, and this is not helping.

Last week the Guardian published an article under the tag "with Covid cases soaring...". I challenged this on twitter as the data (Zoe, ONS and other places) suggested a modest rise at best. My post was descended upon by the covid twitter. And yet, and yet a day or two later the Guardian quietly changed the headline, as covid cases were not in fact soaring. I was right, the twitter idiots wrong, but that cuts no ice.

The expression in the US is 'flood the zone with shit'.
The sheer volume of disinformation on Twitter makes it humanly impossible to challenge.

ydoethur said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

A solicitor has defended a client accused of "aggressive driving", by arguing that his client has two holes for his anus.

Solicitor Michael Kelleher's client, a carpet-fitter, was charged with driving without due care and attention, when he mounted a kerb and almost hit three men.

The men were standing outside the Castle Inn in Pembroke, Wales, when they saw the carpet-fitter's white van heading towards them. Prosecutor Nia James told Haverfordwest magistrates that although the van narrowly missed the men, "it was travelling too quickly and they could have been seriously hurt."

"This was aggressive driving," James said, adding that other witnesses also expressed concern over the manner of the driving, according to a report in the Western Telegraph.

Kelleher, defending his client said: “This is a hard-working man albeit with a very awkward physical problem. It’s very difficult to think of a way of describing his problem, other than he has two holes for his anus instead of one.”

Kelleher told the magistrates that his client was in the area for a job, and "didn’t know his way around," and ended up driving the wrong way down a road. "This certainly wasn’t aggressive driving but a momentary lapse of concentration.”

The client pleaded guilty to the charge of driving in a public place without due care and attention, and was fined a total of £317.

RollOnFriday contacted Kelleher's firm for comment, but it seems to have taken the Buckingham Palace approach of "never explain", when it comes to this type of defence.

https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/defence-week-solicitor-sticks-man-two-anuses

You have to wonder what bearing he thought that had on the case.

He had had two really bad years in a row. A double anus horribilis

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

Leon said:

glw said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigelb said:

REPORT: DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO NUKE NORTH KOREA AND THEN BLAME IT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY
Incredibly (seems perfectly credible to me), this wasn’t the only time he reportedly proposed attacking a foreign nation and then pretending the US didn’t do it.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/01/donald-trump-wanted-to-nuke-north-korea-and-blame-someone-else

Ok, own up.

Who sent him a copy of Team America on DVD for Christmas?

I recall that Trump previously suggested another attack by US aircraft in Chinese colours. I makes me think that Trump believes that a literal "false flag" would be all it takes to fool adversary nations, and he's certainly stupid enough for that to be plausible.

Trump is absolutely not stupid

He often appears vague and he is deeply eccentric, and riven with narcissistic personality disorders, but actually stupid? No

Because he thinks outside the box he is often way ahead of his rivals. Cf lab leak

Even here it’s not clear he’s dumb. Taking out the serious military/nuke threat of North Korea with a first strike is a pretty good idea - if it can be done without provoking world war 3 or killing 20 million Koreans

I'm sorry but he is absolutely dumb. Just think of the number of things he has said that is off the wall dumb. My personal favourite was the fact that he thought F35's were actually invisible. I mean it is there to be seen and he said it several times. Let's also not forget the drinking bleach and blowing up hurricanes with atom bombs.

Whether there was a lab leak or not he wasn't saying it because he was inspired. He was saying it because it fitted his agenda.

The only box he is thinking out of is a box of frogs.

Trump is certainly no intellectual.

Yet he don't get to be a billionaire and President of the USA by being dumb

Well he did inherit much of his wealth and my understanding is that he is not particularly rated as a businessman and he certainly uses some very unethical business practices to try an increase his wealth and we don't know how much of this is run by others.

I don't have an answer for becoming president without insulting a lot of Americans as being either stupid or corrupt so I won't.

But let me ask you a question hyufd - Do you think an F35 can become invisible? I mean actually invisible rather than stealth. I'm sure you don't. So how stupid does he have to be before you would consider him dumb?

I don't disagree he is not especially bright but he can be sharp in terms of achieving his goals.

In fact I would say only 3 US Presidents in my lifetime (ie the last 40 years) have been of high intelligence, Bush Snr, Clinton and Obama.

Trump is the richest of them of course though as you say much of that inherited

ydoethur said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

A solicitor has defended a client accused of "aggressive driving", by arguing that his client has two holes for his anus.

Solicitor Michael Kelleher's client, a carpet-fitter, was charged with driving without due care and attention, when he mounted a kerb and almost hit three men.

The men were standing outside the Castle Inn in Pembroke, Wales, when they saw the carpet-fitter's white van heading towards them. Prosecutor Nia James told Haverfordwest magistrates that although the van narrowly missed the men, "it was travelling too quickly and they could have been seriously hurt."

"This was aggressive driving," James said, adding that other witnesses also expressed concern over the manner of the driving, according to a report in the Western Telegraph.

Kelleher, defending his client said: “This is a hard-working man albeit with a very awkward physical problem. It’s very difficult to think of a way of describing his problem, other than he has two holes for his anus instead of one.”

Kelleher told the magistrates that his client was in the area for a job, and "didn’t know his way around," and ended up driving the wrong way down a road. "This certainly wasn’t aggressive driving but a momentary lapse of concentration.”

The client pleaded guilty to the charge of driving in a public place without due care and attention, and was fined a total of £317.

RollOnFriday contacted Kelleher's firm for comment, but it seems to have taken the Buckingham Palace approach of "never explain", when it comes to this type of defence.

https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/defence-week-solicitor-sticks-man-two-anuses

You have to wonder what bearing he thought that had on the case.

Unless he meant his client's evidence was issuing from one of the two orifices.

NYT ($) - Trump’s Company Gets Maximum Punishment for Evading Taxes
The Trump Organization must pay $1.6 million for giving executive off-the-books benefits and pay.

Former president Donald J. Trump’s family real estate business was ordered on Friday to pay a $1.6 million criminal penalty for its conviction on felony tax fraud and other charges, a stinging rebuke and the maximum possible punishment.

The sentence, handed down by a judge in State Supreme Court in Manhattan, caps a lengthy legal ordeal for Mr. Trump’s company, the Trump Organization, which was convicted in December of doling out off-the-books perks to some of its top executives. One of the executives who orchestrated the scheme, Allen H. Weisselberg, pleaded guilty and testified at the company’s trial. He was sentenced on Tuesday to serve five months at the notorious Rikers Island jail complex.

The financial penalty is a pittance to the company, and the former president, who collected hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue each year while in office. But the verdict branded the company a lawbreaker, exposed a culture that nurtured illegality for years and handed political ammunition to Mr. Trump’s opponents. Prosecutors also continue to press a criminal investigation against the man himself.

The Trump Organization’s lawyers on Friday sought a smaller penalty, pinning the blame on an outside accounting firm, Mazars USA, which they said should have halted the wrongdoing. They also blamed Mr. Weisselberg, who they say carried out the scheme without intending to benefit the Trump Organization. But Joshua Steinglass, a prosecutor in the Manhattan district attorney’s office, argued that the company carried out “a multidimensional scheme to defraud the tax authorities.”

“To avoid detection, they simply falsified the records,” he explained. “This conduct can only be described as egregious,” adding that although the maximum fines may have limited impact on the corporation, “this court should nonetheless impose such fines.”

The judge overseeing the case, Juan Merchan, agreed, imposing the maximum $1.61 million.

“These are arguments that were made throughout the trial,” Justice Merchan said about the defense’s contention that Mazars and Mr. Weisselberg were to blame. “This is not what the evidence has shown, and it is certainly not what the jury found.” . . .

beinndearg said:

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

Leon said:

glw said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigelb said:

REPORT: DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO NUKE NORTH KOREA AND THEN BLAME IT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY
Incredibly (seems perfectly credible to me), this wasn’t the only time he reportedly proposed attacking a foreign nation and then pretending the US didn’t do it.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/01/donald-trump-wanted-to-nuke-north-korea-and-blame-someone-else

Ok, own up.

Who sent him a copy of Team America on DVD for Christmas?

I recall that Trump previously suggested another attack by US aircraft in Chinese colours. I makes me think that Trump believes that a literal "false flag" would be all it takes to fool adversary nations, and he's certainly stupid enough for that to be plausible.

Trump is absolutely not stupid

He often appears vague and he is deeply eccentric, and riven with narcissistic personality disorders, but actually stupid? No

Because he thinks outside the box he is often way ahead of his rivals. Cf lab leak

Even here it’s not clear he’s dumb. Taking out the serious military/nuke threat of North Korea with a first strike is a pretty good idea - if it can be done without provoking world war 3 or killing 20 million Koreans

I'm sorry but he is absolutely dumb. Just think of the number of things he has said that is off the wall dumb. My personal favourite was the fact that he thought F35's were actually invisible. I mean it is there to be seen and he said it several times. Let's also not forget the drinking bleach and blowing up hurricanes with atom bombs.

Whether there was a lab leak or not he wasn't saying it because he was inspired. He was saying it because it fitted his agenda.

The only box he is thinking out of is a box of frogs.

Trump is certainly no intellectual.

Yet he don't get to be a billionaire and President of the USA by being dumb

Well he did inherit much of his wealth and my understanding is that he is not particularly rated as a businessman and he certainly uses some very unethical business practices to try an increase his wealth and we don't know how much of this is run by others.

I don't have an answer for becoming president without insulting a lot of Americans as being either stupid or corrupt so I won't.

But let me ask you a question hyufd - Do you think an F35 can become invisible? I mean actually invisible rather than stealth. I'm sure you don't. So how stupid does he have to be before you would consider him dumb?

"actually invisible rather than stealth" looks to me like an error on your part. If I dress up in camouflage and place myself against a matching background and you can't see me, I am actually invisible to you, purely because of effective stealth.

Nope stealth in this context means radar invisible (or partly radar invisible). I can still see the damn thing with my eyes. Trump thought it was invisible even if you were right next to it. An F35 is certainly not invisible if you are in sight of it. Very much not so.

Nigel_Foremain said:

ydoethur said:

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Trump inherited his billions. And has spent his misspent life pissing them away.

What's the classic restatement of the American Dream: 'rags to riches to rags in three generations.'

In Trump's case let us hope there is a fourth stage which is jail

Personally think the perfect Trump trajectory would be from whore house (where his grandpa made the family fortune) to poor house.

turbotubbs said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

So if free speech is so important, should people spreading misinformation be silenced or should they be allowed to spread their dangerous output?

They should be challenged with the evidence. The best way to deal with Nick Griffin was to have him on Question Time. In the current case you have someone with authority (a medic, a cardiologist, presumably a reasonably successful one) who is misusing statistics (at best mistakenly) and anecdote (he retweets other medics who share his beliefs - not hard to find on twitter). This means on twitter people assume he knows what he is talking about ("he's an expert") and they are not always able to see what his data may be rubbish. This extends to the media. Interviews by news anchors will not flush out the fine details.

I don't know why he is doing what he is doing. I will say this though, a fair number of scientists, medics etc rose to prominence through covid. Many of them have developed a vast army of sycophants. I think its become like a drug for some of them, and this is not helping.

Last week the Guardian published an article under the tag "with Covid cases soaring...". I challenged this on twitter as the data (Zoe, ONS and other places) suggested a modest rise at best. My post was descended upon by the covid twitter. And yet, and yet a day or two later the Guardian quietly changed the headline, as covid cases were not in fact soaring. I was right, the twitter idiots wrong, but that cuts no ice.

Climate change is a very similar case.

Nigel_Foremain said:

ydoethur said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

ydoethur said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

A solicitor has defended a client accused of "aggressive driving", by arguing that his client has two holes for his anus.

Solicitor Michael Kelleher's client, a carpet-fitter, was charged with driving without due care and attention, when he mounted a kerb and almost hit three men.

The men were standing outside the Castle Inn in Pembroke, Wales, when they saw the carpet-fitter's white van heading towards them. Prosecutor Nia James told Haverfordwest magistrates that although the van narrowly missed the men, "it was travelling too quickly and they could have been seriously hurt."

"This was aggressive driving," James said, adding that other witnesses also expressed concern over the manner of the driving, according to a report in the Western Telegraph.

Kelleher, defending his client said: “This is a hard-working man albeit with a very awkward physical problem. It’s very difficult to think of a way of describing his problem, other than he has two holes for his anus instead of one.”

Kelleher told the magistrates that his client was in the area for a job, and "didn’t know his way around," and ended up driving the wrong way down a road. "This certainly wasn’t aggressive driving but a momentary lapse of concentration.”

The client pleaded guilty to the charge of driving in a public place without due care and attention, and was fined a total of £317.

RollOnFriday contacted Kelleher's firm for comment, but it seems to have taken the Buckingham Palace approach of "never explain", when it comes to this type of defence.

https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/defence-week-solicitor-sticks-man-two-anuses

You have to wonder what bearing he thought that had on the case.

He had had two really bad years in a row. A double anus horribilis

When he goes, he must be full of shit than his lawyer.

Surely it would be less, due to his unique evolutionary advantage?

A final thought on the man with two anuses would be whether he farts different notes from each one. Maybe that is the relevance to the case. He crashed because he was unnerved by achieving a tritone with his arseholes?

What does it mean that the word "squaw", which according to Wiktionary derives from a Proto-Algonquian word meaning "(young) woman" is now "offensive", to the extent that the BBC - in reporting the renaming of some places in the USA - is not able to say what those places were previously called?

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 48% (+2)
CON: 21% (-1)
LDM: 8% (+1)
GRN: 7% (=)
RFM: 7% (-1)
SNP: 5% (=}

Via
@PeoplePolling
, 11 Jan.
Changes w/ 4 Jan.

Should be noted that Goodwin's PP pollster is the only pollster with the Tories under 25% now.

It also has RefUK on 7% and is untested at any previous general election. However even 21% is 7% more than the 14% the Tories were on with PP under Truss

kjh said:

beinndearg said:

kjh said:

Leon said:

glw said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigelb said:

REPORT: DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO NUKE NORTH KOREA AND THEN BLAME IT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY
Incredibly (seems perfectly credible to me), this wasn’t the only time he reportedly proposed attacking a foreign nation and then pretending the US didn’t do it.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/01/donald-trump-wanted-to-nuke-north-korea-and-blame-someone-else

Ok, own up.

Who sent him a copy of Team America on DVD for Christmas?

I recall that Trump previously suggested another attack by US aircraft in Chinese colours. I makes me think that Trump believes that a literal "false flag" would be all it takes to fool adversary nations, and he's certainly stupid enough for that to be plausible.

Trump is absolutely not stupid

He often appears vague and he is deeply eccentric, and riven with narcissistic personality disorders, but actually stupid? No

Because he thinks outside the box he is often way ahead of his rivals. Cf lab leak

Even here it’s not clear he’s dumb. Taking out the serious military/nuke threat of North Korea with a first strike is a pretty good idea - if it can be done without provoking world war 3 or killing 20 million Koreans

I'm sorry but he is absolutely dumb. Just think of the number of things he has said that is off the wall dumb. My personal favourite was the fact that he thought F35's were actually invisible. I mean it is there to be seen and he said it several times. Let's also not forget the drinking bleach and blowing up hurricanes with atom bombs.

Whether there was a lab leak or not he wasn't saying it because he was inspired. He was saying it because it fitted his agenda.

The only box he is thinking out of is a box of frogs.

Well, I have never seen an F35, which seems pretty conclusive to me. And if they aren't now they will be very shortly, you just make them into giant amoled screens and pipe the view from the other side across.

here's a thing I can very specifically date: April 1 2004, MacUser magazine spoof review of a 3D printer. How we all laughed.

Nuking hurricanes wasn't his invention either.

That first sentence made me laugh, however you do realise that it has just made me believe in god, fairies, unicorns, and goodness knows what else.

Regarding it may be possible some time in the future to do this stuff, well yes, but he was talking about now. That is like me believing I can use a transporter to get to Australia instantly. We may do it some time in the future, but you would think me extremely stupid if I said we could do it now. StarTrek the documentary.

Yep he wasn't the first to suggest nuking hurricanes. All that means is he also wasn't as imaginative in his utter stupidity. I note one of the other suggestions for getting rid of hurricanes is to fly a plane in the opposite direction to unwind it. I'm no expert but my gut feeling is that won't work either.

PS I'm not saying nuking a hurricane won't work. I have no idea, but I'm guessing there might be some other undesirable side effects. Just saying.

Surely the solution to hurricanes is to find a hurricane (or local lingo equivalent) that spins in the opposite direction (just get one from the other side of the equator, easy) and then nudge the two together?

Leon said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 48% (+2)
CON: 21% (-1)
LDM: 8% (+1)
GRN: 7% (=)
RFM: 7% (-1)
SNP: 5% (=}

Via
@PeoplePolling
, 11 Jan.
Changes w/ 4 Jan.

That’s a much more encouraging poll for the Tories. The slide has almost stopped, the tide is clearly on the turn We will date their comeback from around about now IMHO

An increase of Labour's lead by 3% to 27% 'much more encouraging'?
May it continue to be even more 'encouraging'.

Leon said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 48% (+2)
CON: 21% (-1)
LDM: 8% (+1)
GRN: 7% (=)
RFM: 7% (-1)
SNP: 5% (=}

Via
@PeoplePolling
, 11 Jan.
Changes w/ 4 Jan.

That’s a much more encouraging poll for the Tories. The slide has almost stopped, the tide is clearly on the turn

We will date their comeback from around about now IMHO

You have to spare a thought for the rest of us trapped in your post-modernist irony labyrinth. We are not worthy.

HYUFD said:

CorrectHorseBattery3 said:

Westminster Voting Intention:

LAB: 48% (+2)
CON: 21% (-1)
LDM: 8% (+1)
GRN: 7% (=)
RFM: 7% (-1)
SNP: 5% (=}

Via
@PeoplePolling
, 11 Jan.
Changes w/ 4 Jan.

Should be noted that Goodwin's PP pollster is the only pollster with the Tories under 25% now.

It also has RefUK on 7% and is untested at any previous general election. However even 21% is 7% more than the 14% the Tories were on with PP under Truss

Nailed on to win the next GE then

Tories now have a real chance at governing in the 2060s, perhaps in Meta-Telepathic Coaltion with Alliance X922-//3 on exoplanet Musk 92^^

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

That poll is also much better in terms of seats for the Tories. Baxtered:

Labour: 519
Tories: 33
Libs: 20
SNP: 54
Plaid: 4

So the Tories easily hold on to 3rd place, fighting off Plaid Cymru, and set themselves up to maybe challenge the SNP as Official Opposition in the 2030s-40s

The constituency we have recently moved to, Brentwood and Ongar, is fortunately one of the 33

You've fled the hotbed of Trotskyism Epping?

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

That poll is also much better in terms of seats for the Tories. Baxtered:

Labour: 519
Tories: 33
Libs: 20
SNP: 54
Plaid: 4

So the Tories easily hold on to 3rd place, fighting off Plaid Cymru, and set themselves up to maybe challenge the SNP as Official Opposition in the 2030s-40s

The constituency we have recently moved to, Brentwood and Ongar, is fortunately one of the 33

Your extra 2 votes (I assume your wife is a Tory as otherwise your love life must be torrid) might make all the difference.

Selebian said:

kjh said:

beinndearg said:

kjh said:

Leon said:

glw said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigelb said:

REPORT: DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO NUKE NORTH KOREA AND THEN BLAME IT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY
Incredibly (seems perfectly credible to me), this wasn’t the only time he reportedly proposed attacking a foreign nation and then pretending the US didn’t do it.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/01/donald-trump-wanted-to-nuke-north-korea-and-blame-someone-else

Ok, own up.

Who sent him a copy of Team America on DVD for Christmas?

I recall that Trump previously suggested another attack by US aircraft in Chinese colours. I makes me think that Trump believes that a literal "false flag" would be all it takes to fool adversary nations, and he's certainly stupid enough for that to be plausible.

Trump is absolutely not stupid

He often appears vague and he is deeply eccentric, and riven with narcissistic personality disorders, but actually stupid? No

Because he thinks outside the box he is often way ahead of his rivals. Cf lab leak

Even here it’s not clear he’s dumb. Taking out the serious military/nuke threat of North Korea with a first strike is a pretty good idea - if it can be done without provoking world war 3 or killing 20 million Koreans

I'm sorry but he is absolutely dumb. Just think of the number of things he has said that is off the wall dumb. My personal favourite was the fact that he thought F35's were actually invisible. I mean it is there to be seen and he said it several times. Let's also not forget the drinking bleach and blowing up hurricanes with atom bombs.

Whether there was a lab leak or not he wasn't saying it because he was inspired. He was saying it because it fitted his agenda.

The only box he is thinking out of is a box of frogs.

Well, I have never seen an F35, which seems pretty conclusive to me. And if they aren't now they will be very shortly, you just make them into giant amoled screens and pipe the view from the other side across.

here's a thing I can very specifically date: April 1 2004, MacUser magazine spoof review of a 3D printer. How we all laughed.

Nuking hurricanes wasn't his invention either.

That first sentence made me laugh, however you do realise that it has just made me believe in god, fairies, unicorns, and goodness knows what else.

Regarding it may be possible some time in the future to do this stuff, well yes, but he was talking about now. That is like me believing I can use a transporter to get to Australia instantly. We may do it some time in the future, but you would think me extremely stupid if I said we could do it now. StarTrek the documentary.

Yep he wasn't the first to suggest nuking hurricanes. All that means is he also wasn't as imaginative in his utter stupidity. I note one of the other suggestions for getting rid of hurricanes is to fly a plane in the opposite direction to unwind it. I'm no expert but my gut feeling is that won't work either.

PS I'm not saying nuking a hurricane won't work. I have no idea, but I'm guessing there might be some other undesirable side effects. Just saying.

Surely the solution to hurricanes is to find a hurricane (or local lingo equivalent) that spins in the opposite direction (just get one from the other side of the equator, easy) and then nudge the two together?

It makes you wonder why Trump didn't think of that.

kjh said:

HYUFD said:

kjh said:

Leon said:

glw said:

Malmesbury said:

Nigelb said:

REPORT: DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO NUKE NORTH KOREA AND THEN BLAME IT ON ANOTHER COUNTRY
Incredibly (seems perfectly credible to me), this wasn’t the only time he reportedly proposed attacking a foreign nation and then pretending the US didn’t do it.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/01/donald-trump-wanted-to-nuke-north-korea-and-blame-someone-else

Ok, own up.

Who sent him a copy of Team America on DVD for Christmas?

I recall that Trump previously suggested another attack by US aircraft in Chinese colours. I makes me think that Trump believes that a literal "false flag" would be all it takes to fool adversary nations, and he's certainly stupid enough for that to be plausible.

Trump is absolutely not stupid

He often appears vague and he is deeply eccentric, and riven with narcissistic personality disorders, but actually stupid? No

Because he thinks outside the box he is often way ahead of his rivals. Cf lab leak

Even here it’s not clear he’s dumb. Taking out the serious military/nuke threat of North Korea with a first strike is a pretty good idea - if it can be done without provoking world war 3 or killing 20 million Koreans

I'm sorry but he is absolutely dumb. Just think of the number of things he has said that is off the wall dumb. My personal favourite was the fact that he thought F35's were actually invisible. I mean it is there to be seen and he said it several times. Let's also not forget the drinking bleach and blowing up hurricanes with atom bombs.

Whether there was a lab leak or not he wasn't saying it because he was inspired. He was saying it because it fitted his agenda.

The only box he is thinking out of is a box of frogs.

Trump is certainly no intellectual.

Yet he don't get to be a billionaire and President of the USA by being dumb

Well he did inherit much of his wealth and my understanding is that he is not particularly rated as a businessman and he certainly uses some very unethical business practices to try an increase his wealth and we don't know how much of this is run by others.

I don't have an answer for becoming president without insulting a lot of Americans as being either stupid or corrupt so I won't.

But let me ask you a question hyufd - Do you think an F35 can become invisible? I mean actually invisible rather than stealth. I'm sure you don't. So how stupid does he have to be before you would consider him dumb?

No he's definitely dumb - and probably not a billionaire.