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How will Stretford & Urmston compare with Chester? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,709
edited December 2022 in General
imageHow will Stretford & Urmston compare with Chester? – politicalbetting.com

One thing that we know about the by-election tonight in the seat of Urmston and Stretford is that there will be a low turnout and that LAB will win. The vacancy has occurred because the former MP has become Deputy Mayor of Greater Manchester

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,753
    edited December 2022
    1st, like a nurse in the eyes of the public.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,005
    Betfair market is £0 backed or laid on anyone; Labour can be laid at 1.01 but can't be backed. As close to a cert as you'll ever find
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154
    edited December 2022
    3rd, like the rate of the NHS when you peer behind the curtain expecting a wizard....
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,854
    edited December 2022
    My note from an earlier thread, now on topic.
    Pro_Rata said:

    Quick stats for Stretford & Urmston tomorrow:

    GE19: 60.3 Lab / 27.5 Con
    2024 prediction by EC: 69.1 / 15.4 (10.5% swing)
    2022 LE aggregate result: 63.8 / 22.3

    cf. Chester
    EC predicted swing was 11.9%, actual by election swing was 13.6%.

    So par with Chester would be around 70 / 14.

    It occurs to me that Labour could try to agree the occasional early MP exit and keep a modest by-election pipeline of successful defences with sizeable anti-Tory swings over the next 2 years.

    And FPT, I'm imagining "Dominic Raab's Terrible YouGov Favouribility Ratings" was one of the more poorly received Viz cartoons.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154
    Just heard the Good Lady Wife has landed Chloë Grace Moretz in her next project.

    Will spill more beans when I can.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,599

    Just heard the Good Lady Wife has landed Chloë Grace Moretz in her next project.

    Will spill more beans when I can.

    Knowing who that is would be helpful.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    The key for Stretford is the Green share, it is a safe Labour seat that has never had a Conservative MP (Chester had a Tory MP in 2010 and the Thatcher and Major years) but not far from Manchester with students and a well above average share of Corbynites given Labour got 60% there even in 2019.

    RefUK will not likely poll very well given Trafford which contains the seat voted Remain
  • Options
    BREAKING NEWS - WA 3rd Congressional Requested Machine Recount

    WAHKIAKUM County = reviewed 49 under-votes in the US House race; result > zero changes

    So far 3 counties down, with 4 to go > net change in race = Zilch
  • Options

    1st, like a nurse in the eyes of the public.

    Decades ago there was a reasonably-popular, above-average state legislator, a lawyer, who was only member of the Legislature to vote AGAINST a bill to make assaulting a nurse a specific crime. On grounds it was ALREADY a crime to assault nurses, or anyone else, why clog statue book?

    Next year, he ran for seat on King County Council (a real job with way better pay) but lost a close primary race. In which the fact that he was the ONLY vote against defending nurses from assault was raised against him, in a mailer sent to just about every likely primary voter in the district.
  • Options
    On topic! There will be similarities as a. LAB will win and b. it won't provide any particular insight into the outcome of the next GE.
  • Options
    PhilPhil Posts: 1,943
    edited December 2022

    Just heard the Good Lady Wife has landed Chloë Grace Moretz in her next project.

    Will spill more beans when I can.

    Knowing who that is would be helpful.
    Most recently played the lead in the Amazon Prime adaptation of “The Peripheral” by William Gibson, but has had a fifteen year career in film & TV.

    (Not a great adaptation sadly - ramped up the violence, presumably having decided the target audience was 18-25 males, and played merry hell with the plot. Moretz was good I thought, regardless of the quality of the script.)
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154

    Just heard the Good Lady Wife has landed Chloë Grace Moretz in her next project.

    Will spill more beans when I can.


    Knowing who that is would be helpful.
    Hit Girl in Kick Ass? Let Me In (the US remake of the Swedish vampire movie Let The Right One In)? The Peripheral?
  • Options

    Just heard the Good Lady Wife has landed Chloë Grace Moretz in her next project.

    Will spill more beans when I can.

    I would love to meet your wife.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,848
    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
  • Options
    Given the weather in Greater Manchester this week I'm expecting turnout today be lower than Caligula's morals.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154

    Just heard the Good Lady Wife has landed Chloë Grace Moretz in her next project.

    Will spill more beans when I can.

    I would love to meet your wife.
    I'll let you know about extras....

    https://www.tuko.co.ke/397902-20-young-blonde-actresses-hollywood-pretty.html
  • Options
    FFS.

    A former chief constable who led the investigation into alleged sexual abuse by Sir Edward Heath and who later quit over allegations of serious misconduct, is to be appointed to a police scrutiny role.

    Mike Veale, who previously headed Wiltshire and Cleveland police forces, will become the interim chief executive officer at the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner (OPCC) for Leicester, Leicestershire and Rutland. His salary has not been disclosed.

    In his new role, Veale, 56, will be the senior civil servant, alongside Rupert Matthews, responsible for holding Rob Nixon, the new chief constable for Leicestershire police, to account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ted-heath-inquiry-chief-mike-veale-lands-police-scrutiny-role-bk3v0g3bb
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    edited December 2022
    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472

    FFS.

    A former chief constable who led the investigation into alleged sexual abuse by Sir Edward Heath and who later quit over allegations of serious misconduct, is to be appointed to a police scrutiny role.

    Mike Veale, who previously headed Wiltshire and Cleveland police forces, will become the interim chief executive officer at the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner (OPCC) for Leicester, Leicestershire and Rutland. His salary has not been disclosed.

    In his new role, Veale, 56, will be the senior civil servant, alongside Rupert Matthews, responsible for holding Rob Nixon, the new chief constable for Leicestershire police, to account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ted-heath-inquiry-chief-mike-veale-lands-police-scrutiny-role-bk3v0g3bb

    Police disciplinary procedures would be a joke, were they only funny.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,848
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,862
    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?

    I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    edited December 2022

    FFS.

    A former chief constable who led the investigation into alleged sexual abuse by Sir Edward Heath and who later quit over allegations of serious misconduct, is to be appointed to a police scrutiny role.

    Mike Veale, who previously headed Wiltshire and Cleveland police forces, will become the interim chief executive officer at the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner (OPCC) for Leicester, Leicestershire and Rutland. His salary has not been disclosed.

    In his new role, Veale, 56, will be the senior civil servant, alongside Rupert Matthews, responsible for holding Rob Nixon, the new chief constable for Leicestershire police, to account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ted-heath-inquiry-chief-mike-veale-lands-police-scrutiny-role-bk3v0g3bb

    Oh for heaven's sake, it would be nice, just once, for incompetents to not either fail upwards or at least face no career impediments.

    This dude in particular is clearly haunting me, since I have personal connections with each of the areas he has been involved with there.

    Someone make sure cyclefree hasn't passed out with apoplexy at this news.

    People really do just look at the jobs on a CV and assume the person must be great, don't they?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,753
    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Going to a state school meant that I came out with three Grade A A-Levels (when that meant something) and secured a place at a red brick university.

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,862
    kle4 said:

    FFS.

    A former chief constable who led the investigation into alleged sexual abuse by Sir Edward Heath and who later quit over allegations of serious misconduct, is to be appointed to a police scrutiny role.

    Mike Veale, who previously headed Wiltshire and Cleveland police forces, will become the interim chief executive officer at the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner (OPCC) for Leicester, Leicestershire and Rutland. His salary has not been disclosed.

    In his new role, Veale, 56, will be the senior civil servant, alongside Rupert Matthews, responsible for holding Rob Nixon, the new chief constable for Leicestershire police, to account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ted-heath-inquiry-chief-mike-veale-lands-police-scrutiny-role-bk3v0g3bb

    Oh for heaven's sake, it would be nice, just once, for incompetents to not either fall upwards or at least face no career impediments.

    This dude in particular is clearly haunting me, since I have personal connections with each of the areas he has been involved with there.

    Someone make sure cyclefree hasn't passed out with apoplexy at this news.

    People really do just look at the jobs on a CV and assume the person must be great, don't they?
    The Leics PCC who appointed him is a Tory isn't he?

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    edited December 2022
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?

    I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
    I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154

    Given the weather in Greater Manchester this week I'm expecting turnout today be lower than Caligula's morals.

    Leeds Central record of 19.6% must be at risk.....
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,862
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    edited December 2022

    Given the weather in Greater Manchester this week I'm expecting turnout today be lower than Caligula's morals.

    Leeds Central record of 19.6% must be at risk.....
    Be worth seeing that, if only to make the usual hyperbolic talk about how 'the country has spoken' etc that much more amusing.

    I'd forgotten it was even happening.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,848
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?

    I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
    Just my experience no idea if it was normal.....who knows maybe it was because I was also growing up poor and with parents that didnt give a shit. I left school with no qualifications at 16. I left home and put myself through 6th form college while working paying rent and for food and got 0 levels and a btec which is when I actually was allowed to learn
  • Options
    More than half of Britain’s black police officers and staff suffered racial incidents from colleagues in the past year, a survey has found.

    Those affected were much more likely to feel like outsiders and to want to leave, and many believed their bosses failed to punish wrongdoers, in effect creating a culture of impunity.

    The survey was conducted for the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) as it struggles to address a race crisis facing British policing, with black Britons having less confidence and trust in the service and being less likely to join.

    Black officers and staff were asked for their experiences of bullying, discrimination and micro-aggressions, and 1,614 responses were analysed. The survey defined micro-aggressions as “everyday slights, indignities, putdowns and insults”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/15/half-of-black-british-police-in-survey-report-race-incidents-with-colleagues?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1671133949
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
    That's generally a good aphorism, but I don't think it really applies to how one is treated by the state. By its nature as the state it may be good or bad irrespective of how you approach or treat it.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078

    More than half of Britain’s black police officers and staff suffered racial incidents from colleagues in the past year, a survey has found.

    Those affected were much more likely to feel like outsiders and to want to leave, and many believed their bosses failed to punish wrongdoers, in effect creating a culture of impunity.

    The survey was conducted for the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) as it struggles to address a race crisis facing British policing, with black Britons having less confidence and trust in the service and being less likely to join.

    Black officers and staff were asked for their experiences of bullying, discrimination and micro-aggressions, and 1,614 responses were analysed. The survey defined micro-aggressions as “everyday slights, indignities, putdowns and insults”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/15/half-of-black-british-police-in-survey-report-race-incidents-with-colleagues?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1671133949

    One of many crises affecting British policing (I vaguely recall a few PB headers on the subject). Their only saving grace, as an institution (individual officers may still be good), is one out of their hands, that it is harder for them to kill people than in the USA, but that's not much.
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,319
    Scottish income tax changes for 2023/24:

    Higher rate goes from 41% to 42% (rest of UK: 40%)
    Top rate goes from 46% to 47% (rest of UK: 45%)

    And higher rate continues to start at £43,663 (rest of UK: £50,270)

    Plus Scotland continues to have 3 basic rates: 19%, 20% and 21% - which have overall effect that anyone earning over approx £28k is paying 1% extra on excess over £28k.

    It all adds up so that in Scotland:

    - On £50k earnings you pay £1,552 more than in rest of UK
    - On £150k earnings you pay £3,857 more than in rest of UK

    Not huge differences but starting to be fairly noticeable.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63988944
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,848
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
    I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,035
    ISTR Chester was forecast in an OP to have a dire turnout too.
    I think it achieved 42%. Which wasn't bad as the result was never in doubt.
    Weather is much worse mind.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078

    Just heard the Good Lady Wife has landed Chloë Grace Moretz in her next project.

    Will spill more beans when I can.

    Knowing who that is would be helpful.
    B list actor, that is gets to headline some stuff even if not at the top of the critical or commercial success period - so pretty darn good.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,862
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
    That's generally a good aphorism, but I don't think it really applies to how one is treated by the state. By its nature as the state it may be good or bad irrespective of how you approach or treat it.
    Sure, it is not 100%, but all organisations are constructed by people, and if you treat those people well, then you tend to get treated well by them, within the rules of course.

    I see it all the time in the NHS.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,021
    kle4 said:

    More than half of Britain’s black police officers and staff suffered racial incidents from colleagues in the past year, a survey has found.

    Those affected were much more likely to feel like outsiders and to want to leave, and many believed their bosses failed to punish wrongdoers, in effect creating a culture of impunity.

    The survey was conducted for the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) as it struggles to address a race crisis facing British policing, with black Britons having less confidence and trust in the service and being less likely to join.

    Black officers and staff were asked for their experiences of bullying, discrimination and micro-aggressions, and 1,614 responses were analysed. The survey defined micro-aggressions as “everyday slights, indignities, putdowns and insults”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/15/half-of-black-british-police-in-survey-report-race-incidents-with-colleagues?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1671133949

    One of many crises affecting British policing (I vaguely recall a few PB headers on the subject). Their only saving grace, as an institution (individual officers may still be good), is one out of their hands, that it is harder for them to kill people than in the USA, but that's not much.
    A bit more than 'not much'? Jean Charles de Menenez was almost twenty years ago - it's pretty much a daily occurrence in Brazil.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,862
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
    I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
    Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I now have sciatica - probably worsened by the pounding my back took on Monday by car trying its best to kill me. It is agonising.

    Raab is a nitwit. He has done immeasurable damage to the justice system and his Bill of Rights is a complete dog's breakfast. Being an alleged bully is merely the icing on the cake of all his other faults.

    Completely off topic some of you may be interested in this - which I wrote on conflicts of interest and the police, though it applies equally to other bodies, both public and private. Many of the financial and other scandals we see (from the Unite to the Mone one via plenty of others) have unmanaged and unnecessary conflicts of interest at their heart.

    https://twitter.com/legalfeminist/status/1603351292516204545?s=61&t=xEmB_pnO300bUEt0WcC4KQ

    Sorry to hear about the sciatica, hope you can get treatment speedily.

    Raab's work as a dog's breakfast isn't a great metaphor though. I mean, if you gave that to a dog for its breakfast you'd get done for cruelty to animals.
    Raab is an idiot, like most of the ministers of this government.

    Unfortunately, I doubt if Labour would be any better in government. There is, as @cyclefree puts it, no good reason to vote for this government, other than to prevent Labour from getting an overwhelming majority.
    People will vote for their own reasons of course, but I've never been a fan of that kind of reasoning. People can be pretty bad at judging a national situation, or determing the best (from their perspective) approach in their own area, or of the impact of others en masse acting for the same reason as they contemplate.

    Go with your first instinct I say.
  • Options

    Given the weather in Greater Manchester this week I'm expecting turnout today be lower than Caligula's morals.

    Leeds Central record of 19.6% must be at risk.....
    Unlikely nowadays with greater use of postal votes.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078

    kle4 said:

    More than half of Britain’s black police officers and staff suffered racial incidents from colleagues in the past year, a survey has found.

    Those affected were much more likely to feel like outsiders and to want to leave, and many believed their bosses failed to punish wrongdoers, in effect creating a culture of impunity.

    The survey was conducted for the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) as it struggles to address a race crisis facing British policing, with black Britons having less confidence and trust in the service and being less likely to join.

    Black officers and staff were asked for their experiences of bullying, discrimination and micro-aggressions, and 1,614 responses were analysed. The survey defined micro-aggressions as “everyday slights, indignities, putdowns and insults”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/15/half-of-black-british-police-in-survey-report-race-incidents-with-colleagues?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1671133949

    One of many crises affecting British policing (I vaguely recall a few PB headers on the subject). Their only saving grace, as an institution (individual officers may still be good), is one out of their hands, that it is harder for them to kill people than in the USA, but that's not much.
    A bit more than 'not much'? Jean Charles de Menenez was almost twenty years ago - it's pretty much a daily occurrence in Brazil.
    It's not much because, for us, it should be a given that they won't be doing that (well, ideally it should be a given everywhere). They don't get credit for maintaining the status quo which we all expect, especially since their inability to do so is not up to any decisions of their own.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,848
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
    I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
    Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.

    Demonstrating how I was....for saying you are blaming the victim.....I didnt say boo to a goose as I said being meek and mild is treating people badly really? Wow glad your bedside manner is so good. Yes nowadays I speak up more for myself then I didnt because the usual response was complain about school get punished by teachers kids and parents
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,078
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
    That's generally a good aphorism, but I don't think it really applies to how one is treated by the state. By its nature as the state it may be good or bad irrespective of how you approach or treat it.
    Sure, it is not 100%, but all organisations are constructed by people, and if you treat those people well, then you tend to get treated well by them, within the rules of course.

    I see it all the time in the NHS.
    And yet people argue about the issues of systemic or institutional problems all the time as well, with some truth to it. If things are set up in a particular way it can be hard for good people to help, even if they want to.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,848
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
    That's generally a good aphorism, but I don't think it really applies to how one is treated by the state. By its nature as the state it may be good or bad irrespective of how you approach or treat it.
    Sure, it is not 100%, but all organisations are constructed by people, and if you treat those people well, then you tend to get treated well by them, within the rules of course.

    I see it all the time in the NHS.
    And yet people argue about the issues of systemic or institutional problems all the time as well, with some truth to it. If things are set up in a particular way it can be hard for good people to help, even if they want to.
    He is also making assumptions how I treated people which aren't true and making it apparently my fault
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,862
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
    I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
    Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.

    Demonstrating how I was....for saying you are blaming the victim.....I didnt say boo to a goose as I said being meek and mild is treating people badly really? Wow glad your bedside manner is so good. Yes nowadays I speak up more for myself then I didnt because the usual response was complain about school get punished by teachers kids and parents
    If hating people like me who had loving parents, and good teachers at state schools, before a successful career in the state makes you feel better, then go right ahead. I am pretty thick skinned and can take it.

    It seems to me that your misanthropy isn't helping you in life, but I only know you here. Could be that there is a decent person inside the internet troll.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,848
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.

    However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
    Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
    People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
    I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
    Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.

    Demonstrating how I was....for saying you are blaming the victim.....I didnt say boo to a goose as I said being meek and mild is treating people badly really? Wow glad your bedside manner is so good. Yes nowadays I speak up more for myself then I didnt because the usual response was complain about school get punished by teachers kids and parents
    If hating people like me who had loving parents, and good teachers at state schools, before a successful career in the state makes you feel better, then go right ahead. I am pretty thick skinned and can take it.

    It seems to me that your misanthropy isn't helping you in life, but I only know you here. Could be that there is a decent person inside the internet troll.
    When did I imply I hated you, I commented that state schools were shit for me and the state had never been of much help. I fail to see where I said I hate people with loving parents and good teachers that had a sucessful career. I was pointing out merely to people stating all state schools are all stars and roses are talking bollocks. Sheesh get over yourself saying I didn't have it so good implies nothing about your life
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,028
    HYUFD said:

    The key for Stretford is the Green share, it is a safe Labour seat that has never had a Conservative MP (Chester had a Tory MP in 2010 and the Thatcher and Major years) but not far from Manchester with students and a well above average share of Corbynites given Labour got 60% there even in 2019.

    RefUK will not likely poll very well given Trafford which contains the seat voted Remain

    One of its predecessor seats was held by Little Winnie, fwiw. But it’s indeed as red as they come these days.

    A friend at work lives in Urmston and will be voting this evening, but was considering voting Green instead of Labour, to emphasise the importance of environmental issues.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?

    I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
    I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
    I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.

    However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,688
    FPT @Leon : You said 'But your objection, at the time, was that I'd mistitled him. Which, as we see, I did not. I do not recall you making any other cogent or interesting point, but then that is entirely normal and to be expected"

    Well the post is there for us all to see so I don't know why you are making stuff up.

    a) You did mis-title him. The fact that you can post such blatant lies when we can all see it is a mystery and picked up at the time by others.

    b) That also wasn't my main point, although you are trying hard to make it so. I did mention it as an obvious inaccuracy, but before that I posted the link to the EcoHealth web site page rebuttal which has nothing about his job title whatsoever so what in your mind was the reason for me doing that then? Could it have anything to do with the fact that their version contradicted all of yours I wonder. Or are you trying to pretend that part of my post wasn't there and make it about a trivial job title and therefore a storm in a teacup.

    Now I don't know who is right, but rather than spout stuff from Fox News how about dismantling EcoHealth's rebuttal, then I might take you seriously.

    How the hell you have the brass neck to claim you got the job title right is beyond me. Co-head is the guy in charge. Associate Vice President could be the guy just above is the guy that does the photocopying. Have you met many executives from American Corporations?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Going to a state school meant that I came out with three Grade A A-Levels (when that meant something) and secured a place at a red brick university.

    No it didn't, you would almost certainly have got the same at a private school, maybe even to Oxbridge.

    I also doubt the state school you did go to was anything other than a well above average one or if not you were just the exception that proves the rule
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,848
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?

    I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
    I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
    I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.

    However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
    It can also be dependent on your parents not sabotaging you which mine did
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,899
    Evening all :)

    I'd completely forgotten about today's by-election, possibly the least reported contest of its type in decades.

    Crunching a few numbers, a 10% swing Con-Lab on the 2019 figures assuming a third of the turnout (23%) would give you Labour 11,690, Conservative 2,840.

    It's quite likely the Greens will be third - it would be very good for them to finish second. In my part of London, the Greens are now the main opposition to Labour and I wonder if this is a trend we will see in very solid Labour urban areas.

  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,028
    Big Dwayne-The-Rock-Johnson-sized raised eyebrow at the ongoing obsession with private schooling on here.

    Nerves touched.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    2 MPC members vote for no rate hike. What planet are they living on?!

    Last month I'd have agreed with you, but they [finally] took serious action last month and no time has been given yet to see it through, and inflation has already peaked and is forecast to come down potentially rapidly now.

    Petrol is soon going to be recording serious deflation not inflation.

    They were very late to start raising rates, but there's a real risk they'll again soon be fighting the last war again.
    The problem with that is that the Fed (which also increased rates by 0.5%) was pretty hawkish in doing so yesterday and made it clear that there was more to come. Last month we had a problem because the BoE had fallen behind the curve that the Fed is creating. The risk now is that even although we have matched their increase the perception is that we are still not as focused on bringing inflation down sharply as the Fed is with a consequential weakening of Sterling and (ironically) more inflation from dollar rated products.

    For a lot of reasons we need to get back to real interest rates. 3.5% when inflation is at 10.7% is frankly absurdly low and we need to fix this as fast as the economy can bear.
    If today's inflation rate were to be sustained over the medium term then absolutely we would need to fix that, but the forecast is for us to have less than 2% inflation within 12 months. So real interest rates will be positive (for the first time in 16 years) within a year even with rates as they are. Unless the ECB have got its forecasts terribly wrong.

    Unleaded is now down to 147.9 where I am and is trending down. That is very close to the same price as Jan 22, significantly cheaper than Feb 22 and lots cheaper than Mar 22 onwards.

    Unless oil spikes back upwards it seems reasonable to believe that Unleaded at the least will be deflationary rather than inflationary in the national statistics for Q1 2023 and almost every commodity ought to be deflationary for Q2 2023.

    The Bank has a duty to look forwards and not just fight the last war. I doubt they will properly though.
  • Options
    Ghedebrav said:

    Big Dwayne-The-Rock-Johnson-sized raised eyebrow at the ongoing obsession with private schooling on here.

    Nerves touched.

    Wait until I become the country's first directly elected dictator.

    I shall abolish the Department for Education and privatise education.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472

    Given the weather in Greater Manchester this week I'm expecting turnout today be lower than Caligula's morals.

    Leeds Central record of 19.6% must be at risk.....
    Manchester Central 2012 was 18.2%.

    Mind you the candidate was Lucy Powell.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Given the weather in Greater Manchester this week I'm expecting turnout today be lower than Caligula's morals.

    Leeds Central record of 19.6% must be at risk.....
    Manchester Central 2012 was 18.2%.

    Mind you the candidate was Lucy Powell.
    I voted in that by election.

    I was one of the 754 people who voted Tory.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    More than half of Britain’s black police officers and staff suffered racial incidents from colleagues in the past year, a survey has found.

    Those affected were much more likely to feel like outsiders and to want to leave, and many believed their bosses failed to punish wrongdoers, in effect creating a culture of impunity.

    The survey was conducted for the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) as it struggles to address a race crisis facing British policing, with black Britons having less confidence and trust in the service and being less likely to join.

    Black officers and staff were asked for their experiences of bullying, discrimination and micro-aggressions, and 1,614 responses were analysed. The survey defined micro-aggressions as “everyday slights, indignities, putdowns and insults”.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/15/half-of-black-british-police-in-survey-report-race-incidents-with-colleagues?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1671133949

    One of many crises affecting British policing (I vaguely recall a few PB headers on the subject). Their only saving grace, as an institution (individual officers may still be good), is one out of their hands, that it is harder for them to kill people than in the USA, but that's not much.
    A bit more than 'not much'? Jean Charles de Menenez was almost twenty years ago - it's pretty much a daily occurrence in Brazil.
    It's not much because, for us, it should be a given that they won't be doing that (well, ideally it should be a given everywhere). They don't get credit for maintaining the status quo which we all expect, especially since their inability to do so is not up to any decisions of their own.
    That's not fair. If we just take for granted everything that is going well, then of course its going to be easy to say that it's not much, but that's only because you're in a privileged position to take for granted how good things are.

    As for decisions of their own ... its certainly possible to kill suspects with batons or other weapons that our cops do have, or even unarmed by kneeling on their neck or other methods.

    That our cops don't do that is to their credit. They do get many things wrong, and we should acknowledge that, but we should also give credit where it is due.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    FFS.

    A former chief constable who led the investigation into alleged sexual abuse by Sir Edward Heath and who later quit over allegations of serious misconduct, is to be appointed to a police scrutiny role.

    Mike Veale, who previously headed Wiltshire and Cleveland police forces, will become the interim chief executive officer at the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner (OPCC) for Leicester, Leicestershire and Rutland. His salary has not been disclosed.

    In his new role, Veale, 56, will be the senior civil servant, alongside Rupert Matthews, responsible for holding Rob Nixon, the new chief constable for Leicestershire police, to account.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ted-heath-inquiry-chief-mike-veale-lands-police-scrutiny-role-bk3v0g3bb

    Oh for heaven's sake, it would be nice, just once, for incompetents to not either fall upwards or at least face no career impediments.

    This dude in particular is clearly haunting me, since I have personal connections with each of the areas he has been involved with there.

    Someone make sure cyclefree hasn't passed out with apoplexy at this news.

    People really do just look at the jobs on a CV and assume the person must be great, don't they?
    The Leics PCC who appointed him is a Tory isn't he?

    So was Nicky Morgan, who appointed Amanda Spielman.

    So was Boris Johnson, who appointed Dominic Cummings.

    Anyone beginning to wonder if there might be a pattern here?
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,963
    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    It's quite interesting that our friend Northern_Al doesn't see kids being taken out of their school, away from their friends and dumped in whatever school the postcode lottery deems fit, as suffering.

    Quite the chip on the shoulder there.

  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154
    ydoethur said:

    Given the weather in Greater Manchester this week I'm expecting turnout today be lower than Caligula's morals.

    Leeds Central record of 19.6% must be at risk.....
    Manchester Central 2012 was 18.2%.

    Mind you the candidate was Lucy Powell.
    Thank you for bringing me up to date.

  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,392
    Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.

    Is it time for a thread on AV?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,863

    Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.

    Is it time for a thread on AV?

    I think the word is lull.
    But yes, an AV thread is always welcome.
  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
  • Options

    Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.

    Is it time for a thread on AV?

    I've got an AV/Scottish independence thread planned for the New Year.

    I've written my last thread for PB this year.
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,106

    Just heard the Good Lady Wife has landed Chloë Grace Moretz in her next project.

    Will spill more beans when I can.

    Knowing who that is would be helpful.
    Brooklyn Beckham’s ex…
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,353

    Ghedebrav said:

    Big Dwayne-The-Rock-Johnson-sized raised eyebrow at the ongoing obsession with private schooling on here.

    Nerves touched.

    Wait until I become the country's first directly elected dictator.

    I shall abolish the Department for Education and privatise education.
    Too late. That's already been done by the academisation ( is that even a word?) of comprehensive schools. Still funded by the LAs with academy group CEOs taking home whopping private sector captain of industry salaries. Luvvlyjubbly.
  • Options
    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,954
    Much as I loathe personal anecdata vs hard stats, I used to live in this constituency until last year so want to give my two cents. It's an increasingly young professional suburb with good demographics for Labour, they should do very comfortably here. For the same reason I'm a bit skeptical about Reform UK doing better here. It's a fairly Remainy area too. We'll see, but I would take evens on another lost deposit for them.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.

    Is it time for a thread on AV?

    WOKE AI PREDICTS ENGLAND TEST LOSS DUE TO COVID LAB LEAK DRIVEN BY SINDYREF DECIDED ON THE ALTERNATIVE VOTE SYSTEM.

    Or something.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,392
    edited December 2022

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,392

    Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.

    Is it time for a thread on AV?

    WOKE AI PREDICTS ENGLAND TEST LOSS DUE TO COVID LAB LEAK DRIVEN BY SINDYREF DECIDED ON THE ALTERNATIVE VOTE SYSTEM.

    Or something.
    I assumed that was a Leon post when I started reading…
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    For all the damage done to Iraq I wonder if the bigger problem for Blair among the British electorate is the fact we were forced out.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,867
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    No, not one. Labour led in every poll while Blair was LOTO:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_1997_United_Kingdom_general_election
  • Options
    .

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    The WMD issue was Saddam's fault. He had an obligation to cooperate and wasn't, and the use of force had already been authorised by the UN to ensure it.

    Saddam was trying to play both sides against each other. He wanted creative ambiguity. He wanted the world (especially his enemies domestically and Iran etc) to think he had WMDs and was prepared to use them, while not wanting to give America proof he had them still.

    That he didn't have them ended up being a surprise, but showed what a good job he had done in tricking the world into thinking he did.

    People die in wars, its tragic but its war. War crime means more than just war happened, and to use it otherwise totally devalues the word so it becomes meaningless. Like calling everyone you disagree with a fascist until suddenly like Trumpists actual fascists come along and the word has become meaningless.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,643
    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    A good friend had exactly that experience - teachers did nothing. When he and some of the other “brainy” kids fought back, they were disciplined. On the grounds that more was expected of them.

    Some little time ago, I was step dad (informally) to some children. One boy was being merciless bullied for “acting white*” - getting 9/10 on tests etc.

    The head teacher refused to intervene on what they saw as a “cultural issue”.

    I gave him my old copy of Greece And Rome At War, with a bookmark in the chapter on the Roman Army at Cannae.

    In addition to being a bright lad, his organisational capabilities proved excellent.

    The headteacher was furious…

    *that was the term the bully used.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,392

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    For all the damage done to Iraq I wonder if the bigger problem for Blair among the British electorate is the fact we were forced out.
    I’m not sure. There were an awful lot of people opposed before the war even started. I think if they had found something in the line of WMD they could have got away with it, but frankly invading countries and expecting them to suddenly become fully functioning Western style democracies does not have a good track record.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,472
    edited December 2022

    Ghedebrav said:

    Big Dwayne-The-Rock-Johnson-sized raised eyebrow at the ongoing obsession with private schooling on here.

    Nerves touched.

    Wait until I become the country's first directly elected dictator.

    I shall abolish the Department for Education and privatise education.
    Too late. That's already been done by the academisation ( is that even a word?) of comprehensive schools. Still funded by the LAs with academy group CEOs taking home whopping private sector captain of industry salaries. Luvvlyjubbly.
    The DfE hasn’t been abolished, and it controls the abominations that are MATs (multi academy trusts).

    Proper privatisation would mean getting rid of government control of schools at all except for an H+S style regulatory framework and inspectorate thereof, and letting schools teach what they wanted.

    There would be significant drawbacks to such a system, but it’s hard to imagine they could be worse than the drawbacks of the current system. And at least it would put trained staff rather than retarded drunks who got the job because daddy knew the right people in charge of children’s education.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,591
    kjh said:

    FPT @Leon : You said 'But your objection, at the time, was that I'd mistitled him. Which, as we see, I did not. I do not recall you making any other cogent or interesting point, but then that is entirely normal and to be expected"

    Well the post is there for us all to see so I don't know why you are making stuff up.

    a) You did mis-title him. The fact that you can post such blatant lies when we can all see it is a mystery and picked up at the time by others.

    b) That also wasn't my main point, although you are trying hard to make it so. I did mention it as an obvious inaccuracy, but before that I posted the link to the EcoHealth web site page rebuttal which has nothing about his job title whatsoever so what in your mind was the reason for me doing that then? Could it have anything to do with the fact that their version contradicted all of yours I wonder. Or are you trying to pretend that part of my post wasn't there and make it about a trivial job title and therefore a storm in a teacup.

    Now I don't know who is right, but rather than spout stuff from Fox News how about dismantling EcoHealth's rebuttal, then I might take you seriously.

    How the hell you have the brass neck to claim you got the job title right is beyond me. Co-head is the guy in charge. Associate Vice President could be the guy just above is the guy that does the photocopying. Have you met many executives from American Corporations?

    You tragic fucks
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,839
    edited December 2022

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    The trouble is a war crime is the breaking of the international laws governing war, and an unprompted war of aggression is one such example. But of course it’s of a different nature to committing atrocities during a war. Both are crimes, both pretty serious, but different. Iraq teeters on the edge of a war deliberately started on false pretences, and a catastrophic error of judgment and intelligence failure.

  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,867
    edited December 2022

    Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.

    Is it time for a thread on AV?

    WOKE AI PREDICTS ENGLAND TEST LOSS DUE TO COVID LAB LEAK DRIVEN BY SINDYREF DECIDED ON THE ALTERNATIVE VOTE SYSTEM.

    Or something.
    I assumed that was a Leon post when I started reading…
    Can't believe you fell for that. No mention of aliens.
  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    For all the damage done to Iraq I wonder if the bigger problem for Blair among the British electorate is the fact we were forced out.
    I’m not sure. There were an awful lot of people opposed before the war even started. I think if they had found something in the line of WMD they could have got away with it, but frankly invading countries and expecting them to suddenly become fully functioning Western style democracies does not have a good track record.
    It has a mixed track record.

    It worked in Germany and Japan and if you count it as an invasion then South Korea too.

    It certainly didn't work in Iraq or Afghanistan.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    The trouble is a war crime is the breaking of the international laws governing war, and an unprompted war of aggression is one such example. But of course it’s of a different nature to committing atrocities during a war. Both are crimes, both pretty serious, but different. Iraq teeters on the edge of a war deliberately started on false pretences, and a catastrophic error of judgment and intelligence failure.

    The Iraq War wasn't unprompted though, it was prompted by Iraq invading Kuwait.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,591

    Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.

    Is it time for a thread on AV?

    Too many good people banned, too many entertaining voices silenced, too many contrary opinions forbidden

    FFS I was banned the other night for suggesting that the eventual Nuremburg Trials for Covid (and there must be such things, 20 million people have died) should be capital trials. That execution should be an option. That is all. I did not say "hang person X" or "lynch doctor Y"

    I was banned for merely suggesting that the gravity of the crime demands a grave response, and people on here cheered the banning. And so PB is dying
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,392

    .

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    The WMD issue was Saddam's fault. He had an obligation to cooperate and wasn't, and the use of force had already been authorised by the UN to ensure it.

    Saddam was trying to play both sides against each other. He wanted creative ambiguity. He wanted the world (especially his enemies domestically and Iran etc) to think he had WMDs and was prepared to use them, while not wanting to give America proof he had them still.

    That he didn't have them ended up being a surprise, but showed what a good job he had done in tricking the world into thinking he did.

    People die in wars, its tragic but its war. War crime means more than just war happened, and to use it otherwise totally devalues the word so it becomes meaningless. Like calling everyone you disagree with a fascist until suddenly like Trumpists actual fascists come along and the word has become meaningless.
    I think with Blair the nation was dragged to war on a false prospectus. The infamous dossier, which almost certainly was ‘sexed up’ at the behest of Campbell et al. The treatment of an honourable man who took his own life. I think had honest reasons for what he did, but I think he chose to commit the nation to a war against Saddam Hussain (not Iraq, or it’s people) and as a result 100s of 1000s died. Was Hussain an actual threat at the time? Not really.
    Yes, of course we can draw distinctions between soldiers committing atrocities and Blair deciding Saddam Hussain had to go. But everything that happened in Iraq happened by Western leaders, Bush and Blair, making the choice to make war.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    For all the damage done to Iraq I wonder if the bigger problem for Blair among the British electorate is the fact we were forced out.
    I’m not sure. There were an awful lot of people opposed before the war even started. I think if they had found something in the line of WMD they could have got away with it, but frankly invading countries and expecting them to suddenly become fully functioning Western style democracies does not have a good track record.
    Forget WMDs. If Saddam had been replaced with a somewhat better government without enormous bloodshed I think the public would have forgiven intelligence failings and dubious legality.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?

    I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
    I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
    I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.

    However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
    For someone who has probably never set foot in a comprehensive school you are quite the expert.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,353

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It was an illegal war without UN approval. It was justified on a false premise and we secured regime change and the execution of Sadam.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,839
    I think the most interesting vote shares here despite their small absolute size will be Lib Dem and Ref.

    Lib Dem because I have a sense they’re doing worse in polling than in real council elections (and they outperformed expectations in Chester) and this could be an important factor to watch for the blue wall. I don’t think it says anything about tactical voting as this one’s a free hit.

    Ref because it might indicate which end of their very wide national polling range is more
    accurate (although as others have stated they wouldn’t be expected to do well in this area).

    I don’t think Green is so important. They’ll do well, again because it’s a pretty left wing area and this is a free hit, but the voters will return home to labour at a GE.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,867
    Did we do the latest Kantar?

    Voting intentions:

    Labour 46% (+1 vs November 2022)
    Conservatives 29% (-1)
    Liberal Democrats 9% (+1)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 5% (nc)
    Reform UK 4% (-1)
    UKIP 2% (nc)
    Plaid Cymru <1% (nc)
    Other 1% (-1)</i>

    Sampled between the 8 and 12 December 2022

    https://www.kantarpublic.com/inspiration/thought-leadership/over-two-thirds-of-britons-are-concerned-that-they-will-not-be-able-to-afford-to-keep-their-homes-warm-this-winter
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,187
    edited December 2022

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pagan2 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    LAB: 45% (+3)
    CON: 29% (-2)
    LDEM: 8% (-2)
    REF: 6% (+1)
    GRN: 3% (-)

    via @Savanta_UK, 09 - 11 Dec

    Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
    Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.

    Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
    It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.

    Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.

    Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
    On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.

    On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
    I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
    Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
    Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.

    So yeah tell me how great state schools are
    Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?

    I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
    I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
    I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.

    However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
    For someone who has probably never set foot in a comprehensive school you are quite the expert.
    How do you know I have never set foot in one? I did at one time consider being a teacher before moving on. The crowd control issue in the average comprehensive is clearly much more of an issue than in most private or grammar schools and certainly pre sixth form. My cousins also went to comprehensives.

  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,048
    Leon said:

    Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.

    Is it time for a thread on AV?

    Too many good people banned, too many entertaining voices silenced, too many contrary opinions forbidden

    FFS I was banned the other night for suggesting that the eventual Nuremburg Trials for Covid (and there must be such things, 20 million people have died) should be capital trials. That execution should be an option. That is all. I did not say "hang person X" or "lynch doctor Y"

    I was banned for merely suggesting that the gravity of the crime demands a grave response, and people on here cheered the banning. And so PB is dying
    Your flaccid response to non-extremist opinions is your problem, not PB's.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,392

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    For all the damage done to Iraq I wonder if the bigger problem for Blair among the British electorate is the fact we were forced out.
    I’m not sure. There were an awful lot of people opposed before the war even started. I think if they had found something in the line of WMD they could have got away with it, but frankly invading countries and expecting them to suddenly become fully functioning Western style democracies does not have a good track record.
    It has a mixed track record.

    It worked in Germany and Japan and if you count it as an invasion then South Korea too.

    It certainly didn't work in Iraq or Afghanistan.
    Germany was closer to the model pre 1933, so it wasn’t a wholly novel concept. Never forget how man6 votes Hitler and the Nazis received in genuine elections.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,392

    TimS said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    The trouble is a war crime is the breaking of the international laws governing war, and an unprompted war of aggression is one such example. But of course it’s of a different nature to committing atrocities during a war. Both are crimes, both pretty serious, but different. Iraq teeters on the edge of a war deliberately started on false pretences, and a catastrophic error of judgment and intelligence failure.

    The Iraq War wasn't unprompted though, it was prompted by Iraq invading Kuwait.
    Not the 2nd one.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,839

    TimS said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    The trouble is a war crime is the breaking of the international laws governing war, and an unprompted war of aggression is one such example. But of course it’s of a different nature to committing atrocities during a war. Both are crimes, both pretty serious, but different. Iraq teeters on the edge of a war deliberately started on false pretences, and a catastrophic error of judgment and intelligence failure.

    The Iraq War wasn't unprompted though, it was prompted by Iraq invading Kuwait.
    That’s stretching it a tad. Like saying the current Ukraine war was prompted by the maidan revolution in 2014.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,392
    Leon said:

    Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.

    Is it time for a thread on AV?

    Too many good people banned, too many entertaining voices silenced, too many contrary opinions forbidden

    FFS I was banned the other night for suggesting that the eventual Nuremburg Trials for Covid (and there must be such things, 20 million people have died) should be capital trials. That execution should be an option. That is all. I did not say "hang person X" or "lynch doctor Y"

    I was banned for merely suggesting that the gravity of the crime demands a grave response, and people on here cheered the banning. And so PB is dying
    I didn’t cheer the banning, and I also miss @IshmaelZ.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,392

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    For all the damage done to Iraq I wonder if the bigger problem for Blair among the British electorate is the fact we were forced out.
    I’m not sure. There were an awful lot of people opposed before the war even started. I think if they had found something in the line of WMD they could have got away with it, but frankly invading countries and expecting them to suddenly become fully functioning Western style democracies does not have a good track record.
    Forget WMDs. If Saddam had been replaced with a somewhat better government without enormous bloodshed I think the public would have forgiven intelligence failings and dubious legality.

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    For all the damage done to Iraq I wonder if the bigger problem for Blair among the British electorate is the fact we were forced out.
    I’m not sure. There were an awful lot of people opposed before the war even started. I think if they had found something in the line of WMD they could have got away with it, but frankly invading countries and expecting them to suddenly become fully functioning Western style democracies does not have a good track record.
    Forget WMDs. If Saddam had been replaced with a somewhat better government without enormous bloodshed I think the public would have forgiven intelligence failings and dubious legality.
    True, but that misses the point about the arrogance of Western democrats thinking our way of running a nation is the best, and that all will love it once it’s imposed. ‘The end of history’ and all that.
  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It was an illegal war without UN approval. It was justified on a false premise and we secured regime change and the execution of Sadam.
    No it was not and could not be. The UN authorised the use of force against Iraq when they invaded Kuwait and no peace treaty was ever signed from that.

    There was a ceasefire which led to certain obligations on Iraq regarding WMDs and cooperation, obligations they violated thus violating the ceasefire. So the war resumed.

    The UN explicitly authorised the use of force against Iraq, one of the only times it did, and never rescinded that authorisation (which is how the No Fly Zone was in place) so that authorisation continued.

    If you're in a state of ceasefire, dicking around with that ceasefire is either a brave or fatally stupid thing to do. For Saddam it was the latter.

    Opposing the war is perfectly valid if you want to do it, but don't overegg it. It was not illegal.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,839
    edited December 2022

    Did we do the latest Kantar?

    Voting intentions:

    Labour 46% (+1 vs November 2022)
    Conservatives 29% (-1)
    Liberal Democrats 9% (+1)
    Green 5% (+1)
    SNP 5% (nc)
    Reform UK 4% (-1)
    UKIP 2% (nc)
    Plaid Cymru <1% (nc)
    Other 1% (-1)</i>

    Sampled between the 8 and 12 December 2022

    https://www.kantarpublic.com/inspiration/thought-leadership/over-two-thirds-of-britons-are-concerned-that-they-will-not-be-able-to-afford-to-keep-their-homes-warm-this-winter

    One notable trend in recent polls seems to have been the gradual decline of the Greens (I know they’re up 1 in this but from a very low recent score). From 9-10% in some and 6% in others for months, to a range closer to 3-6% now. It does vary wildly between pollsters but I’m pretty sure there’s been a decline, which has helped the Labour vote share.

    I expect Ref to start a slow puncture from now on as a GE looms and refugee crossings start to slip from the front pages. Perhaps they’ll retain a core poujadiste following of people who find Sunak’s government a bit right on with all the net zero stuff, or “socialist” with its tax rises.

    LLG fairly stable across most polls in the high 50s to low 60s, down from mid 60s at the height of the Trussterfuk
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    For all the damage done to Iraq I wonder if the bigger problem for Blair among the British electorate is the fact we were forced out.
    I’m not sure. There were an awful lot of people opposed before the war even started. I think if they had found something in the line of WMD they could have got away with it, but frankly invading countries and expecting them to suddenly become fully functioning Western style democracies does not have a good track record.
    Forget WMDs. If Saddam had been replaced with a somewhat better government without enormous bloodshed I think the public would have forgiven intelligence failings and dubious legality.

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think at some point in 2023 we're going to see a Tory lead. But maybe just one or two outliers.

    I don't

    Fancy a bet?

    £20 says there won't be a Tory lead in any of the BPC polls, before midnight Dec 31st, 2022?
    This is a singularly ungenerous bet!

    I meant 2023 - end of next year - obvs
    I thought you were being rather nice to give away free money. I was going to ask if I could have some.
    Did Blair suffer any polling deficits from 1994-1997?

    Hardly any, as I recall,

    We are in that situation again. It will need a huge black swan to give the Tories a lead. Not impossible, but there is not a 50% chance, which makes this a decent bet at evens
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely giving you a good deal at evens.
    Ta

    I'm genuinely curious, did Blair ever fall behind in the polls, from 94-97? I seem to recall one brief episode, but maybe I am imagining it
    I think there may have been one or two, but I Starmer is no Blair and we live in very erratic times.
    Of course Starmer isn't Blair; he's not a posh public schoolboy.
    Hopefully should he prevail, he won't become a war criminal either. That was my big plus for Johnson. He wasn't a war criminal. I suppose there is always the prospect that during his second coming he can chalk up that label.
    I'm no fan of Labour, or Blair, but calling him a war criminal is absurd.

    We see war crimes in the real world, in Ukraine today with the deliberate and systematic targeting of civilians and the sanctioned rape, mass murder and abuse. That is a war crime.

    What happened in Iraq was war, not a war crime. Calling every act of war a war crime completely devalues and demean the words.
    It is somewhat complicated by the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction that were the purported cases belli. And an awful lot of people died as a result.
    I don’t believe Blair is a war criminal, but Incan understand why some do. To turn it around somewhat people are incredibly angry at Johnson, Hancock et al, and blame them for covid deaths. In many ways Blair was far more responsible for Iraqi deaths than Johnson and Hancock were for covid deaths. The Iraq war didn’t need to happen, Covid was thrust upon us.
    For all the damage done to Iraq I wonder if the bigger problem for Blair among the British electorate is the fact we were forced out.
    I’m not sure. There were an awful lot of people opposed before the war even started. I think if they had found something in the line of WMD they could have got away with it, but frankly invading countries and expecting them to suddenly become fully functioning Western style democracies does not have a good track record.
    Forget WMDs. If Saddam had been replaced with a somewhat better government without enormous bloodshed I think the public would have forgiven intelligence failings and dubious legality.
    True, but that misses the point about the arrogance of Western democrats thinking our way of running a nation is the best, and that all will love it once it’s imposed. ‘The end of history’ and all that.
    How many people actually believed that though? Bush and some of those around him. Blair and a few liberal interventionists. The inexplicable rump of a Tory party that existed at that time.
This discussion has been closed.