I went to a modestly high powered Soho London media party tonight. Well known TV types, aides and rellies of senior ministers, etc
Almost no one had heard of ChatGPT. And this wasn't me prowling around bothering people for answers, the question went around, a few had an inkling, no one had tried it
Remarkable
Going to cause universities quite a headache when it turns out that lazy students end up scraping 2:1s via it. I tested it earlier on a few philosophical arguments/positions (ranging from Cartesian dualism to Hume's argument against miracles) and you could easily produce a bog standard philosophy essay which would get a low 2:1. Not nearly so good when you test it out at PhD standard, mind.
@ElectionMapsUK Rumours of a 22% turnout in Stretford & Urmston, which would make it the 3rd lowest EVER, after Manchester Central (2012, 18.2%) and Leeds Central (1999, 19.6%).
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?
I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.
However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
For someone who has probably never set foot in a comprehensive school you are quite the expert.
How do you know I have never set foot in one? I did at one time consider being a teacher before moving on. The crowd control issue in the average comprehensive is clearly much more of an issue than in most private or grammar schools and certainly pre sixth form. My cousins also went to comprehensives.
Your every post on this topic is dripping in condescension and bathed in ignorance. It's a privilege to go to a comprehensive. Everything I've achieved in life came from that experience. I would never deny it to my children.
Certainly I benefitted from going to a Comprehensive. I did well academically obviously, but I think the non-academic side is equally important. I mixed and had friends with a wide variety of kids, far wider than at any private school. That has been very useful in terms of how I approach patients and staff. I learned to argue, drink and debate with people with completely different world views. My dislike of arbitrary authority has those roots too.
Measuring an education purely on the base of academic achievement, is to really devalue the whole process. Education is about much more, it is about answering the only real question "How should we live?"
Education is about academic achievement. If you want to see the real world sending your teenage or student children to work in a summer in a factory or shopfloor is far more likely to expose them to that then just sending them to the equally largely middle class outstanding state school down the road
No it's not. Education should be measured on value added.
By the grammatical and punctuation quality of that post you would have benefited from a top quality comprehensive education.
Care to define value added?
If someone arrives at secondary school unable to read, yet five years later they are writing decent quality prose, that is a phenomenal result.
A student arriving at Grammar school aged 11 with an expectation of 10 A* when they subsequently only achieve 4A* and 6As, not so much.
On HY's metric student 1 has been failed whilst student 2 has succeeded.
So what, that is different schools doing what they are supposed to be focusing on and ranked accordingly, not one size fits all comprehensive
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?
I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.
However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
For someone who has probably never set foot in a comprehensive school you are quite the expert.
How do you know I have never set foot in one? I did at one time consider being a teacher before moving on. The crowd control issue in the average comprehensive is clearly much more of an issue than in most private or grammar schools and certainly pre sixth form. My cousins also went to comprehensives.
Your every post on this topic is dripping in condescension and bathed in ignorance. It's a privilege to go to a comprehensive. Everything I've achieved in life came from that experience. I would never deny it to my children.
Certainly I benefitted from going to a Comprehensive. I did well academically obviously, but I think the non-academic side is equally important. I mixed and had friends with a wide variety of kids, far wider than at any private school. That has been very useful in terms of how I approach patients and staff. I learned to argue, drink and debate with people with completely different world views. My dislike of arbitrary authority has those roots too.
Measuring an education purely on the base of academic achievement, is to really devalue the whole process. Education is about much more, it is about answering the only real question "How should we live?"
I always find it interesting to see people describing how wide ranging their social circle and range of experience is.
The assumption of widest experience is often rather like that of being the most intelligent.
In part it is the nature of my job. I have patients who are doing life for murder, and Lords of the realm. Refugees and factory workers, lawyers and professional sports people. Machinists and social workers, and those who are too mentally ill to ever work. The rich tapestry of humanity is one of the pleasures of the job.
Has it not occurred to you that meeting them when treating them is a whole different experience to meeting them outside a treatment room
Certainly so, but part of the job is to understand how illness impacts people, and for that you have to know their fears, their restrictions, their domestic situations. Disease does not exist on its own, but as part of wider human life, and being good at the job requires empathy and understanding.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?
I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.
However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
For someone who has probably never set foot in a comprehensive school you are quite the expert.
How do you know I have never set foot in one? I did at one time consider being a teacher before moving on. The crowd control issue in the average comprehensive is clearly much more of an issue than in most private or grammar schools and certainly pre sixth form. My cousins also went to comprehensives.
Your every post on this topic is dripping in condescension and bathed in ignorance. It's a privilege to go to a comprehensive. Everything I've achieved in life came from that experience. I would never deny it to my children.
Certainly I benefitted from going to a Comprehensive. I did well academically obviously, but I think the non-academic side is equally important. I mixed and had friends with a wide variety of kids, far wider than at any private school. That has been very useful in terms of how I approach patients and staff. I learned to argue, drink and debate with people with completely different world views. My dislike of arbitrary authority has those roots too.
Measuring an education purely on the base of academic achievement, is to really devalue the whole process. Education is about much more, it is about answering the only real question "How should we live?"
I always find it interesting to see people describing how wide ranging their social circle and range of experience is.
The assumption of widest experience is often rather like that of being the most intelligent.
My social circle appears to consist primarily of anti social nerds with an inflated view of their sense of humour.
I cannot think how I ended up with such a bunch of loners and losers.
I resemble this remark….
The strange thing is finding the mental blocks that people have in the oddest places about whom they are allowed to socialise with. They are often not what you’d expect - I had a very liberal boss who was upset that I drank in “town” pubs in Malmesbury.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?
I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.
However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
For someone who has probably never set foot in a comprehensive school you are quite the expert.
How do you know I have never set foot in one? I did at one time consider being a teacher before moving on. The crowd control issue in the average comprehensive is clearly much more of an issue than in most private or grammar schools and certainly pre sixth form. My cousins also went to comprehensives.
Your every post on this topic is dripping in condescension and bathed in ignorance. It's a privilege to go to a comprehensive. Everything I've achieved in life came from that experience. I would never deny it to my children.
Certainly I benefitted from going to a Comprehensive. I did well academically obviously, but I think the non-academic side is equally important. I mixed and had friends with a wide variety of kids, far wider than at any private school. That has been very useful in terms of how I approach patients and staff. I learned to argue, drink and debate with people with completely different world views. My dislike of arbitrary authority has those roots too.
Measuring an education purely on the base of academic achievement, is to really devalue the whole process. Education is about much more, it is about answering the only real question "How should we live?"
Education is about academic achievement. If you want to see the real world sending your teenage or student children to work in a summer in a factory or shopfloor is far more likely to expose them to that then just sending them to the equally largely middle class outstanding state school down the road
No it's not. Education should be measured on value added.
By the grammatical and punctuation quality of that post you would have benefited from a top quality comprehensive education.
Care to define value added?
Happy to oblige
If someone arrives at secondary school unable to read, yet five years later they are writing decent quality prose, that is a phenomenal result.
A student arriving at Grammar school aged 11 with an expectation of 10 A* when they subsequently only achieve 4A* and 6As, not so much.
On HY's metric student 1 has been failed whilst student 2 has succeeded.
Well while we normally disagree on most things on this we do concur
Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.
Is it time for a thread on AV?
Too many good people banned, too many entertaining voices silenced, too many contrary opinions forbidden
FFS I was banned the other night for suggesting that the eventual Nuremburg Trials for Covid (and there must be such things, 20 million people have died) should be capital trials. That execution should be an option. That is all. I did not say "hang person X" or "lynch doctor Y"
I was banned for merely suggesting that the gravity of the crime demands a grave response, and people on here cheered the banning. And so PB is dying
I didn’t cheer the banning, and I also miss @IshmaelZ.
PB had a bunch of salty regulars, who kept coming to the pub, loyally, even on a bleak boring midwinter Wednesday
They were opinionated and cranky, quirky and ornery, and often fascinating and well informed (at their best, they could also be gits). Sometimes when the flightier types arrived for the pub quiz or a football game, the regs would spit bile at the glory hunters and the fly by nights, but these drunk people kept the pub going. Even if they were occasionally bigoted or prone to Holocaust denial or simply liked singing IRA songs too loud or playing darts with flaming arrows
They WERE the pub. They have slowly been banned or edged out. The slot machine chings, with no one to play
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
Is this the end times for PB? Not with a bang, but a whimper? No topics to get people going, a calm, boring PM, a calm, boring leader of the opposition. Nearly Christmas, England and Wales out of the World Cup. Test doesn’t start until Saturday.
Is it time for a thread on AV?
Too many good people banned, too many entertaining voices silenced, too many contrary opinions forbidden
FFS I was banned the other night for suggesting that the eventual Nuremburg Trials for Covid (and there must be such things, 20 million people have died) should be capital trials. That execution should be an option. That is all. I did not say "hang person X" or "lynch doctor Y"
I was banned for merely suggesting that the gravity of the crime demands a grave response, and people on here cheered the banning. And so PB is dying
I didn’t cheer the banning, and I also miss @IshmaelZ.
PB had a bunch of salty regulars, who kept coming to the pub, loyally, even on a bleak boring midwinter Wednesday
They were opinionated and cranky, quirky and ornery, and often fascinating and well informed (at their best, they could also be gits). Sometimes when the flightier types arrived for the pub quiz or a football game, the regs would spit bile at the glory hunters and the fly by nights, but these drunk people kept the pub going. Even if they were occasionally bigoted or prone to Holocaust denial or simply liked singing IRA songs too loud or playing darts with flaming arrows
They WERE the pub. They have slowly been banned or edged out. The slot machine chings, with no one to play
We'll all do our best to add salt.
Hang the immigrants, shit damn, etc.
Hanging immigrants is a waste of good hemp surely...hands you the immigrant cook book
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?
I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.
However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
For someone who has probably never set foot in a comprehensive school you are quite the expert.
How do you know I have never set foot in one? I did at one time consider being a teacher before moving on. The crowd control issue in the average comprehensive is clearly much more of an issue than in most private or grammar schools and certainly pre sixth form. My cousins also went to comprehensives.
Your every post on this topic is dripping in condescension and bathed in ignorance. It's a privilege to go to a comprehensive. Everything I've achieved in life came from that experience. I would never deny it to my children.
Certainly I benefitted from going to a Comprehensive. I did well academically obviously, but I think the non-academic side is equally important. I mixed and had friends with a wide variety of kids, far wider than at any private school. That has been very useful in terms of how I approach patients and staff. I learned to argue, drink and debate with people with completely different world views. My dislike of arbitrary authority has those roots too.
Measuring an education purely on the base of academic achievement, is to really devalue the whole process. Education is about much more, it is about answering the only real question "How should we live?"
Education is about academic achievement. If you want to see the real world sending your teenage or student children to work in a summer in a factory or shopfloor is far more likely to expose them to that then just sending them to the equally largely middle class outstanding state school down the road
No it's not. Education should be measured on value added.
By the grammatical and punctuation quality of that post you would have benefited from a top quality comprehensive education.
Care to define value added?
If someone arrives at secondary school unable to read, yet five years later they are writing decent quality prose, that is a phenomenal result.
A student arriving at Grammar school aged 11 with an expectation of 10 A* when they subsequently only achieve 4A* and 6As, not so much.
On HY's metric student 1 has been failed whilst student 2 has succeeded.
So what, that is different schools doing what they are supposed to be focusing on and ranked accordingly, not one size fits all comprehensive
I am suggesting school A achieved child A's full potential whilst school B possibly failed the child, as they did not meet the child's full potential. However you measure school A as a fail and school B as a win.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
If it makes you feel any better, I was sent to a private boarding school, and it was pretty awful. Four of the staff later did time (one of them ten years) for sexual abuse.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
We have gone backwards however it is not merely a state school problem we also have a cohort of parents who do not value education. While it is apparently impolite to say this includes both the afro carribean parents, some middle eastern parents and also white parents.
The big difference for kids I believe is parents that both believe education is a good thing and encourage their kids to learn. The disruptive kids largely come from parents that also believe education is a waste of time. My parents among them
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
One of the reasons I like tech is that it is relatively classless, at least on the development side.
I’m not sure my career (which is tech adjacent) would have been the same had I gone into law or something.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
If it makes you feel any better, I was sent to a private boarding school, and it was pretty awful. Four of the staff later did time (one of them ten years) for sexual abuse.
Yes, I was saved all of that. My school was just so-so. We weren’t even good at rugby. Weirdly we had a reputation for musical theatre, in hindsight due to some talented music and drama teachers.
I agree with others; bring back Ishmael. Terrible taste in music, but he was one of the best things about PB.
He was a bit robust but that's all part of PB's rich tapestry.
I don't know why people get stressed about other posters. I can only recall one who really got my goat and that was Plato. It wasn't her views but the way she would link to all manner of nonsense which you had to check out in case it had genuine betting implications. Most of it was nonsense but you wasted a lot of time establishing that. Very irritating if you were a serious punter.
Everyone else I've always been able to take or ignore as appropriate.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
But those parents are the type that will make sure their kids dont go do non aspirational schools so there will be no mixing. They will instead buy up property in a good cachement area or send the kids private. Btw sent you an im
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Sounds pretty shit. Are people really like that in Cornwall?
I went to state schools, all comprehensive, in Birmingham, Atlanta and Hampshire without anything along those lines. Fox Jr went to Leicestershire schools without any issues. Neither of us were bullied etc in class or playground for being clever and getting good results
I never witnessed anything like that at my state school, and I was an annoying swot. Popularity at my school seemed mostly dependent on footballing ability, and many good players were also good at school work (which seems unfair, but that's life).
I think popularity at any school depends on sporting ability and looks and sociability, including my old private school.
However at private schools and grammar schools and a few outstanding state schools classes tend to be less disrupted than at the average comprehensive with teachers having to spend less time on crowd control and pupils more ambitious to learn
For someone who has probably never set foot in a comprehensive school you are quite the expert.
How do you know I have never set foot in one? I did at one time consider being a teacher before moving on. The crowd control issue in the average comprehensive is clearly much more of an issue than in most private or grammar schools and certainly pre sixth form. My cousins also went to comprehensives.
Your every post on this topic is dripping in condescension and bathed in ignorance. It's a privilege to go to a comprehensive. Everything I've achieved in life came from that experience. I would never deny it to my children.
No it isn't a privilege to go to a comprehensive, it is just the local school you get allocated. It is choice which drives up excellence not state directed allocation in education as much as the economy.
No everything you achieved did not come from your comprehensive education and that is especially the case for bright children from working class backgrounds whose best chance of progressing is a grammar school or scholarship to a private school
So. How would a child with special needs be educated? Do they deserve a good education or not?
Plenty of excellent private schools for children with special educational needs, again focused on them rather than losing them in the comprehensive system.
Choice has vastly improved state education too, see success stories like Mossbourne Academy, outside of LEA control and founded by businessman Sir Clive Bourne. Or the excellent Michaela Free School started by Katharine Birbalsingh and focused on strict discipline and academic subjects and getting its pupils into top universities
How does strict discipline help kids with autism and ADHD attend top universities?
By allowing teachers to concentrate on their pupils needs, which the pupils you mention have even more of, rather than disruptive and misbehaving pupils taking their attention instead.
Pupils with no special needs and attentive parents can get good results even without the teachers help. Good discipline helps those who are struggling the most.
Thanks for your insight. A question. Who do you think the disruptive pupils are?
It's not only one group but if I had to pick one I would say extroverted and boisterous children who have been allowed to be disruptive due to a lack of discipline either at school or at home. And that can harm those children's education as much if not more than it harms that of other kids.
Many teachers and assistants etc can work very hard being fair with discipline and trying to encourage those children to redirect their energy to healthier pursuits. They should be applauded, appreciated and encouraged.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
How many middle class parents are there in Grimsby, Stoke, Hull or Bradford, Knowsley, Blackpool, Rotherham or Sunderland or Margate or Clacton or West Bromwich or Rhyl for example? Not many, so the comprehensives bthere will always be mainly working class. It is those areas where grammars are needed most as the brightest of the local working class can then attend them without being disrupted in class and focus on getting on to university and top careeers
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
One of the reasons I like tech is that it is relatively classless, at least on the development side.
I’m not sure my career (which is tech adjacent) would have been the same had I gone into law or something.
From what I’ve heard, media, arts and the charitable sector are giant piles of nepotism and who you knew at school.
Law is supposed to be better, but friends in the scramble to survive that seems to be the top law firms say otherwise….
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
If it makes you feel any better, I was sent to a private boarding school, and it was pretty awful. Four of the staff later did time (one of them ten years) for sexual abuse.
I hate to defend private schools but your beef could equally apply to the state sector. The head of rural science at my excellent comprehensive served 15 months in Winson Green for the statutory rape of a 15 year old girl.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
One of the reasons I like tech is that it is relatively classless, at least on the development side.
I’m not sure my career (which is tech adjacent) would have been the same had I gone into law or something.
From what I’ve heard, media, arts and the charitable sector are giant piles of nepotism and who you knew at school.
Law is supposed to be better, but friends in the scramble to survive that seems to be the top law firms say otherwise….
I dont know about media or arts but the charity sector definitely seems to be based on who you know. Look at the top of most campaigning only charitys and they seem to be composed of people who have never done much else.
The main issue in the UK appears to be white working class boys rather than various ethnic minority groups.
It’s superficially comforting but actually quite disturbing.
I would say that they are the largest ethnic group in the “doing poorly” category, but far from the only one.
It is noticeable in tech that two groups you never see are poor white working class (the last of the BT engineers who went contracting seem to have retired) and Afro-Caribbean. There are a few from first generation immigrant families from Africa.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
If it makes you feel any better, I was sent to a private boarding school, and it was pretty awful. Four of the staff later did time (one of them ten years) for sexual abuse.
I hate to defend private schools but your beef could equally apply to the state sector. The head of rural science at my excellent comprehensive served 15 months in Winson Green for the statutory rape of a 15 year old girl.
Private schools tend however to have more opportunities for abuse due to boarders
The main issue in the UK appears to be white working class boys rather than various ethnic minority groups.
It’s superficially comforting but actually quite disturbing.
Immigrants tend to be more motivated, especially Indian and East Asian parents. Hence state schools in inner London in particular are much better than they were and the grammar schools which remain are filled with British Asian pupils
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
We have gone backwards however it is not merely a state school problem we also have a cohort of parents who do not value education. While it is apparently impolite to say this includes both the afro carribean parents, some middle eastern parents and also white parents.
The big difference for kids I believe is parents that both believe education is a good thing and encourage their kids to learn. The disruptive kids largely come from parents that also believe education is a waste of time. My parents among them
I'm not touching the racial thing with a bargepole but suffice to say that while discipline at school is important, discipline at home is much more so. And that includes supporting and backing up teachers who feel the need to discipline children.
There are some parents whose response to a child being in trouble is to be far more disappointed in the child and to ensure they know better is expected of them. There are others who would go into the school with an attitude of "how dare you tell off my child".
Good schools, whatever sector they are in, generally has far more to do with ensuring like-minded parents are involved.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
How many middle class parents are there in Grimsby, Stoke, Hull or Bradford, Knowsley, Blackpool, Rotherham or Sunderland or Margate or Clacton or West Bromwich or Rhyl for example? Not many, so the comprehensives bthere will always be mainly working class. It is those areas where grammars are needed most as the brightest of the local working class can then attend them without being disrupted in class and focus on getting on to university and top careeers
You are clueless. Why not fund excellent comprehensives rather than determine a child's future academic success aged 11? Potentially on the scrapheap at 11. That is immoral.
The main issue in the UK appears to be white working class boys rather than various ethnic minority groups.
It’s superficially comforting but actually quite disturbing.
I would say that they are the largest ethnic group in the “doing poorly” category, but far from the only one.
It is noticeable in tech that two groups you never see are poor white working class (the last of the BT engineers who went contracting seem to have retired) and Afro-Caribbean. There are a few from first generation immigrant families from Africa.
Poor working class whites and afro caribbeans seem to put less value on education. for info I came fro poor working class and I can vouch for my parents telling me it was a waste of time. My adopted daughter is afro carribean and her parents were the same. Yes anecdote
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
How many middle class parents are there in Grimsby, Stoke, Hull or Bradford, Knowsley, Blackpool, Rotherham or Sunderland or Margate or Clacton or West Bromwich or Rhyl for example? Not many, so the comprehensives bthere will always be mainly working class. It is those areas where grammars are needed most as the brightest of the local working class can then attend them without being disrupted in class and focus on getting on to university and top careeers
You are clueless. Why not fund excellent comprehensives rather than determine a child's future academic success aged 11? Potentially on the scrapheap at 11. That is immoral.
Grammar schools performed a valuable function after the war, but they are clearly a retrograde idea in the context of 2022.
There are better ways to deliver social mobility and a skilled workforce surely than a brutal cull aged 11.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
We have gone backwards however it is not merely a state school problem we also have a cohort of parents who do not value education. While it is apparently impolite to say this includes both the afro carribean parents, some middle eastern parents and also white parents.
The big difference for kids I believe is parents that both believe education is a good thing and encourage their kids to learn. The disruptive kids largely come from parents that also believe education is a waste of time. My parents among them
I'm not touching the racial thing with a bargepole but suffice to say that while discipline at school is important, discipline at home is much more so. And that includes supporting and backing up teachers who feel the need to discipline children.
There are some parents whose response to a child being in trouble is to be far more disappointed in the child and to ensure they know better is expected of them. There are others who would go into the school with an attitude of "how dare you tell off my child".
Good schools, whatever sector they are in, generally has far more to do with ensuring like-minded parents are involved.
I totally agree on parental attidues however where you have failing schools with poor discipline I suspect you have failing parents and yes it isnt a race thing but does seem prevalent in white and poor and afro carribean and poor parents. Sorry but sometimes its better to speak up and say it else nothing is done to fix it.
My adopted daughter is afro carribean she is so inculcated with education is pointless that I am struggling to get her to see the point. Not my fault I didnt give her that attitude her parents did.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
How many middle class parents are there in Grimsby, Stoke, Hull or Bradford, Knowsley, Blackpool, Rotherham or Sunderland or Margate or Clacton or West Bromwich or Rhyl for example? Not many, so the comprehensives bthere will always be mainly working class. It is those areas where grammars are needed most as the brightest of the local working class can then attend them without being disrupted in class and focus on getting on to university and top careeers
You are clueless. Why not fund excellent comprehensives rather than determine a child's future academic success aged 11? Potentially on the scrapheap at 11. That is immoral.
What was immoral is the left destroying most of the best state schools this country ever produced through class war.
You can spend millions on a comprehensive in Grimsby, it still would not get as good results as a grammar run on a shoestring and nor would it offer the opportunities a grammar would to working class entrants at 11, 13 or 16
On the subject of discipline in schools, my youngest is a firecracker full of energy, always had been. She missed almost all of her time at nursery due to lockdown, then had the bemusing distinction of being put on her teachers equivalent of a naughty step on her very first day at Reception at school after lockdown. We got her to write a Sorry card to her teacher which she took in the next day.
She learned from that incident. Having good discipline at school, backed up at home, she's never repeated that behaviour. She's been in trouble more than once for not listening, as many a young child might be, but never needed to be put on naughty or whatever it's called again.
Had we instead of getting her to write a Sorry card to her teacher gone in and heckled the teacher and said how dare you discipline our daughter etc, then things could have gone differently. If there's a culture in a schools parents of not backing up the teachers then the teachers job will be ten times harder and it'll be little surprise if they end up giving up or good teachers looking for other schools.
On the subject of discipline in schools, my youngest is a firecracker full of energy, always had been. She missed almost all of her time at nursery due to lockdown, then had the bemusing distinction of being put on her teachers equivalent of a naughty step on her very first day at Reception at school after lockdown. We got her to write a Sorry card to her teacher which she took in the next day.
She learned from that incident. Having good discipline at school, backed up at home, she's never repeated that behaviour. She's been in trouble more than once for not listening, as many a young child might be, but never needed to be put on naughty or whatever it's called again.
Had we instead of getting her to write a Sorry card to her teacher gone in and heckled the teacher and said how dare you discipline our daughter etc, then things could have gone differently. If there's a culture in a schools parents of not backing up the teachers then the teachers job will be ten times harder and it'll be little surprise if they end up giving up or good teachers looking for other schools.
While again another person I often disagree with you nail it on the head. If teachers aren't backed up by parents then they cant keep discipline and too often they arent
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
How many middle class parents are there in Grimsby, Stoke, Hull or Bradford, Knowsley, Blackpool, Rotherham or Sunderland or Margate or Clacton or West Bromwich or Rhyl for example? Not many, so the comprehensives bthere will always be mainly working class. It is those areas where grammars are needed most as the brightest of the local working class can then attend them without being disrupted in class and focus on getting on to university and top careeers
You are clueless. Why not fund excellent comprehensives rather than determine a child's future academic success aged 11? Potentially on the scrapheap at 11. That is immoral.
What was immoral is the left destroying most of the best state schools this country ever produced through class war.
You can spend millions on a comprehensive in Grimsby, it still would not get as good results as a grammar run on a shoestring and nor would it offer the opportunities a grammar would to working class entrants at 11, 13 or 16
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
How many middle class parents are there in Grimsby, Stoke, Hull or Bradford, Knowsley, Blackpool, Rotherham or Sunderland or Margate or Clacton or West Bromwich or Rhyl for example? Not many, so the comprehensives bthere will always be mainly working class. It is those areas where grammars are needed most as the brightest of the local working class can then attend them without being disrupted in class and focus on getting on to university and top careeers
You are clueless. Why not fund excellent comprehensives rather than determine a child's future academic success aged 11? Potentially on the scrapheap at 11. That is immoral.
What was immoral is the left destroying most of the best state schools this country ever produced through class war.
You can spend millions on a comprehensive in Grimsby, it still would not get as good results as a grammar run on a shoestring and nor would it offer the opportunities a grammar would to working class entrants at 11, 13 or 16
You are so wrong headed over this return to the 1950s.
You didn't even go to a grammar school. I did. The opportunities available to all but those who were going to succeed anyway just didn't happen to the rest. The council house kids wound up in the B stream and were entered for CSEs so as not to drag down the school's 100% O level pass rate. Learning by rote to pass exams, it was s*** and class/wealth based bullying was rife.
If you are interested in American experiences and experiments in education, you might want to look at Joanne Jacobs' excellent site regularly:
Some recent post titles: How Denver schools improved: Choice, accountability No Shows 'Be all you can be' works for black soldiers Ignoring smart kids isn't a smart strategy
(Almost all of you can find some support for your arguments on education in one or more of her posts.)
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
We have gone backwards however it is not merely a state school problem we also have a cohort of parents who do not value education. While it is apparently impolite to say this includes both the afro carribean parents, some middle eastern parents and also white parents.
The big difference for kids I believe is parents that both believe education is a good thing and encourage their kids to learn. The disruptive kids largely come from parents that also believe education is a waste of time. My parents among them
I'm not touching the racial thing with a bargepole but suffice to say that while discipline at school is important, discipline at home is much more so. And that includes supporting and backing up teachers who feel the need to discipline children.
There are some parents whose response to a child being in trouble is to be far more disappointed in the child and to ensure they know better is expected of them. There are others who would go into the school with an attitude of "how dare you tell off my child".
Good schools, whatever sector they are in, generally has far more to do with ensuring like-minded parents are involved.
I totally agree on parental attidues however where you have failing schools with poor discipline I suspect you have failing parents and yes it isnt a race thing but does seem prevalent in white and poor and afro carribean and poor parents. Sorry but sometimes its better to speak up and say it else nothing is done to fix it.
My adopted daughter is afro carribean she is so inculcated with education is pointless that I am struggling to get her to see the point. Not my fault I didnt give her that attitude her parents did.
White and Afro Carribean is about 85% of the population, its so general as to be pretty meaningless.
The issue is parents who don't value education. Some may be white, some may be Afro Caribbean and some may be something else. Race isn't the determining factor, the parents character along with possibly their own upbringing is.
A segregation we have today is that people can and do choose schooling based on discipline. I know poor parents whom I have heard speaking dismissively of certain schools that they wouldn't want their kids to go there because "it's too strict" etc, while other parents who value education welcome that.
I drive past three schools to take my kids to their state school that we opted to send them to, because we knew it was a good school with a strict and good reputation.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
How many middle class parents are there in Grimsby, Stoke, Hull or Bradford, Knowsley, Blackpool, Rotherham or Sunderland or Margate or Clacton or West Bromwich or Rhyl for example? Not many, so the comprehensives bthere will always be mainly working class. It is those areas where grammars are needed most as the brightest of the local working class can then attend them without being disrupted in class and focus on getting on to university and top careeers
You are clueless. Why not fund excellent comprehensives rather than determine a child's future academic success aged 11? Potentially on the scrapheap at 11. That is immoral.
What was immoral is the left destroying most of the best state schools this country ever produced through class war.
You can spend millions on a comprehensive in Grimsby, it still would not get as good results as a grammar run on a shoestring and nor would it offer the opportunities a grammar would to working class entrants at 11, 13 or 16
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
Which is why to be truly comprehensive, a school needs a number of middle class kids too.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
How many middle class parents are there in Grimsby, Stoke, Hull or Bradford, Knowsley, Blackpool, Rotherham or Sunderland or Margate or Clacton or West Bromwich or Rhyl for example? Not many, so the comprehensives bthere will always be mainly working class. It is those areas where grammars are needed most as the brightest of the local working class can then attend them without being disrupted in class and focus on getting on to university and top careeers
You are clueless. Why not fund excellent comprehensives rather than determine a child's future academic success aged 11? Potentially on the scrapheap at 11. That is immoral.
What was immoral is the left destroying most of the best state schools this country ever produced through class war.
You can spend millions on a comprehensive in Grimsby, it still would not get as good results as a grammar run on a shoestring and nor would it offer the opportunities a grammar would to working class entrants at 11, 13 or 16
You are so wrong headed over this return to the 1950s.
You didn't even go to a grammar school. I did. The opportunities available to all but those who were going to succeed anyway just didn't happen to the rest. The council house kids wound up in the B stream and were entered for CSEs so as not to drag down the school's 100% O level pass rate. Learning by rote to pass exams, it was s*** and class/wealth based bullying was rife.
Alternative view....my son went to a grammar school..no outside coaching....his alternative was going to the local comprehensive which was mildly jokingly called gang recruitment central....which should I have wished him to be at?
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
We have gone backwards however it is not merely a state school problem we also have a cohort of parents who do not value education. While it is apparently impolite to say this includes both the afro carribean parents, some middle eastern parents and also white parents.
The big difference for kids I believe is parents that both believe education is a good thing and encourage their kids to learn. The disruptive kids largely come from parents that also believe education is a waste of time. My parents among them
I'm not touching the racial thing with a bargepole but suffice to say that while discipline at school is important, discipline at home is much more so. And that includes supporting and backing up teachers who feel the need to discipline children.
There are some parents whose response to a child being in trouble is to be far more disappointed in the child and to ensure they know better is expected of them. There are others who would go into the school with an attitude of "how dare you tell off my child".
Good schools, whatever sector they are in, generally has far more to do with ensuring like-minded parents are involved.
I totally agree on parental attidues however where you have failing schools with poor discipline I suspect you have failing parents and yes it isnt a race thing but does seem prevalent in white and poor and afro carribean and poor parents. Sorry but sometimes its better to speak up and say it else nothing is done to fix it.
My adopted daughter is afro carribean she is so inculcated with education is pointless that I am struggling to get her to see the point. Not my fault I didnt give her that attitude her parents did.
White and Afro Carribean is about 85% of the population, its so general as to be pretty meaningless.
The issue is parents who don't value education. Some may be white, some may be Afro Caribbean and some may be something else. Race isn't the determining factor, the parents character along with possibly their own upbringing is.
A segregation we have today is that people can and do choose schooling based on discipline. I know poor parents whom I have heard speaking dismissively of certain schools that they wouldn't want their kids to go their because "it's too strict" etc, while other parents who value education welcome that.
I drive past three schools to take my kids to their state school that we opted to send them to, because we knew it was a good school with a strict and good reputation.
I said poor white and afro carribean...that is not 85% of the country
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
We have gone backwards however it is not merely a state school problem we also have a cohort of parents who do not value education. While it is apparently impolite to say this includes both the afro carribean parents, some middle eastern parents and also white parents.
The big difference for kids I believe is parents that both believe education is a good thing and encourage their kids to learn. The disruptive kids largely come from parents that also believe education is a waste of time. My parents among them
I'm not touching the racial thing with a bargepole but suffice to say that while discipline at school is important, discipline at home is much more so. And that includes supporting and backing up teachers who feel the need to discipline children.
There are some parents whose response to a child being in trouble is to be far more disappointed in the child and to ensure they know better is expected of them. There are others who would go into the school with an attitude of "how dare you tell off my child".
Good schools, whatever sector they are in, generally has far more to do with ensuring like-minded parents are involved.
I totally agree on parental attidues however where you have failing schools with poor discipline I suspect you have failing parents and yes it isnt a race thing but does seem prevalent in white and poor and afro carribean and poor parents. Sorry but sometimes its better to speak up and say it else nothing is done to fix it.
My adopted daughter is afro carribean she is so inculcated with education is pointless that I am struggling to get her to see the point. Not my fault I didnt give her that attitude her parents did.
White and Afro Carribean is about 85% of the population, its so general as to be pretty meaningless.
The issue is parents who don't value education. Some may be white, some may be Afro Caribbean and some may be something else. Race isn't the determining factor, the parents character along with possibly their own upbringing is.
A segregation we have today is that people can and do choose schooling based on discipline. I know poor parents whom I have heard speaking dismissively of certain schools that they wouldn't want their kids to go their because "it's too strict" etc, while other parents who value education welcome that.
I drive past three schools to take my kids to their state school that we opted to send them to, because we knew it was a good school with a strict and good reputation.
I said poor white and afro carribean...that is not 85% of the country
Poor is a separate characteristic to race.
White and Afro Caribbean is about 85% if you want to bring race into it. If you want to talk about poor then talk about poor, the racial factor is redundant.
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
We have gone backwards however it is not merely a state school problem we also have a cohort of parents who do not value education. While it is apparently impolite to say this includes both the afro carribean parents, some middle eastern parents and also white parents.
The big difference for kids I believe is parents that both believe education is a good thing and encourage their kids to learn. The disruptive kids largely come from parents that also believe education is a waste of time. My parents among them
I'm not touching the racial thing with a bargepole but suffice to say that while discipline at school is important, discipline at home is much more so. And that includes supporting and backing up teachers who feel the need to discipline children.
There are some parents whose response to a child being in trouble is to be far more disappointed in the child and to ensure they know better is expected of them. There are others who would go into the school with an attitude of "how dare you tell off my child".
Good schools, whatever sector they are in, generally has far more to do with ensuring like-minded parents are involved.
I totally agree on parental attidues however where you have failing schools with poor discipline I suspect you have failing parents and yes it isnt a race thing but does seem prevalent in white and poor and afro carribean and poor parents. Sorry but sometimes its better to speak up and say it else nothing is done to fix it.
My adopted daughter is afro carribean she is so inculcated with education is pointless that I am struggling to get her to see the point. Not my fault I didnt give her that attitude her parents did.
White and Afro Carribean is about 85% of the population, its so general as to be pretty meaningless.
The issue is parents who don't value education. Some may be white, some may be Afro Caribbean and some may be something else. Race isn't the determining factor, the parents character along with possibly their own upbringing is.
A segregation we have today is that people can and do choose schooling based on discipline. I know poor parents whom I have heard speaking dismissively of certain schools that they wouldn't want their kids to go their because "it's too strict" etc, while other parents who value education welcome that.
I drive past three schools to take my kids to their state school that we opted to send them to, because we knew it was a good school with a strict and good reputation.
I said poor white and afro carribean...that is not 85% of the country
for clarification poor white and poor afro carribean
Labour still on the slide, I see. Must be their private schools VAT policy - deeply unpopular.
Class war on private schools is something even New Labour did.
Doesn't change the fact it will make private schools even more exclusive, reduce scholarships and bursaries and close smaller private schools
It's noticeable how silent the detractors of private schools are when they're asked for ideas to improve state schools. A clear sign that they're driven by ideological hatred, rather than being focused on achieving the best possible educational outcomes.
Making private education unaffordable will just mean people game the system in other ways, like buying property in a good school catchment area. You can't stop people trying to buy the best for their children - it's just a part of human nature.
Take the top public/boarding schools out of the equation, and most private day schools are full of kids whose parents are on above average, middle class salaries but who are spending a significant portion of their post-tax income to give their kids a better start in life, at considerable cost to their own standard of living. It is those people, and not the mega rich who send their kids to Eton et al, who will suffer the most from Labour's misguided policy.
On your last sentence, you obviously think that to go to a state school is to "suffer". Utter nonsense.
On your first sentence, I (and I'm sure all the other educationalists on here) have absolutely loads of ideas on how to improve state schools further (most are already pretty good). We wouldn't all agree, but as a starting point I suspect even better teaching, improved management, less DfE interference, and smaller class sizes would achieve a pretty high degree of consensus.
I went to a state school....to suffer was an understatement
Reading your negative posts, it sounds as if you are still suffering.
Shrugs going to a state school meant my notes and books were set light to, answering a question in class or showing any interest in class resulted in retribution in the playground or outside school, teachers never gave a shit and were almost as bad as the kids.
So yeah tell me how great state schools are
Some state schools still are and still value learning eg the few remaining grammar schools and a few of the top outstanding faith schools and some academies like Mossbourne and free schools like Michaela Community School.
However Labour are not great fans of the former and the left not even fans of the latter
Every time I have ever got involved with the state I got fucked over. The left love it I know but if all they ever do is fuck you then you learn to avoid them
People treat you as you treat them in my experience.
I hardly ever spoke to anyone let alone be violent. Fuck you for blaming the victim here. Pointless talking to anyone as they ignored me. Till I hit 15 I was small for my age so pointless being violent as would get shat on
Physical violence is not the only way of treating people badly, as you demonstrate so well in your reply.
I treated you badly by saying you were blaming me for my treatment by peers?
No, I don't blame you for that.
What I meant is that carrying those wounds into adult life is only hurting yourself more. A shit childhood like you describe is certainly a bad start in life, but acting aggressively to everyone as a response is no way to escape. It is just a retreat back into that cage.
a lot of my posts are not aggressive. I am agressive when people assert shit that isnt true such as state schools are all rainbows and sunshine
People on here are more likely to assert the opposite - fair play to you, you're one of the few people to assert that who has actually set foot in one. Your experience was awful but not typical.
I went to a state school, in NZ.
It was pretty middling, and to be fair it was designed to be a factory for exiting kids into blue collar jobs in a blue collar suburb.
They did an OK job of that, I guess, but personally I was under encouraged and under stimulated. There was no real experience of professional jobs, going on to medical school (for example) was considered some kind of impossible holy grail.
I have no regrets, largely because I don’t think it healthy, but I’ve sent my kids private. I don’t personally have any ethical issues in doing so, I merely want for kids what I didn’t have.
That is part of the problem though with state schools, certainly it was with mine. It was assumed kids would go into farming or fishing so there was no pressing need to educate us particularly and if you aspired to more you were looked at as odd
My experience was not as bad as yours.
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
“Not for the likes of us”
We have gone backwards however it is not merely a state school problem we also have a cohort of parents who do not value education. While it is apparently impolite to say this includes both the afro carribean parents, some middle eastern parents and also white parents.
The big difference for kids I believe is parents that both believe education is a good thing and encourage their kids to learn. The disruptive kids largely come from parents that also believe education is a waste of time. My parents among them
I'm not touching the racial thing with a bargepole but suffice to say that while discipline at school is important, discipline at home is much more so. And that includes supporting and backing up teachers who feel the need to discipline children.
There are some parents whose response to a child being in trouble is to be far more disappointed in the child and to ensure they know better is expected of them. There are others who would go into the school with an attitude of "how dare you tell off my child".
Good schools, whatever sector they are in, generally has far more to do with ensuring like-minded parents are involved.
I totally agree on parental attidues however where you have failing schools with poor discipline I suspect you have failing parents and yes it isnt a race thing but does seem prevalent in white and poor and afro carribean and poor parents. Sorry but sometimes its better to speak up and say it else nothing is done to fix it.
My adopted daughter is afro carribean she is so inculcated with education is pointless that I am struggling to get her to see the point. Not my fault I didnt give her that attitude her parents did.
White and Afro Carribean is about 85% of the population, its so general as to be pretty meaningless.
The issue is parents who don't value education. Some may be white, some may be Afro Caribbean and some may be something else. Race isn't the determining factor, the parents character along with possibly their own upbringing is.
A segregation we have today is that people can and do choose schooling based on discipline. I know poor parents whom I have heard speaking dismissively of certain schools that they wouldn't want their kids to go their because "it's too strict" etc, while other parents who value education welcome that.
I drive past three schools to take my kids to their state school that we opted to send them to, because we knew it was a good school with a strict and good reputation.
I said poor white and afro carribean...that is not 85% of the country
Poor is a separate characteristic to race.
White and Afro Caribbean is about 85% if you want to bring race into it. If you want to talk about poor then talk about poor, the racial factor is redundant.
I did clarify post this which crossed but disagree its about poor. Non afro carribeans are also poor, same with first generation indian immigrants....difference is they do value education and encouraging their children. Its not a race thing for me as plenty of blacks and asians do value education and I salute them. There however does seem to be an issue in the poor white community and the poor afro carribean community that doesnt seem to exist in the poor hindu community nor the poor chinese community etc.....if we cant say it because racism then frankly racism can fuck itself because we need to work out why and change it and the first step is saying there is a problem
Incidentally I wouldn't even class all poor individuals or areas the same.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
Incidentally I wouldn't even class all poor individuals or areas the same.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
I don't agree. I grew up poor, I educated myself and got better jobs but I could still only live in areas where gangs held sway. Mostly hells angels, various national mafia's etc and a few criminal gangs on top. Maybe just the south east of england I guess but you still knew who not to cross and who to do a favour for if asked if you didnt want to end up bloody in an alley
Incidentally I wouldn't even class all poor individuals or areas the same.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
I don't agree. I grew up poor, I educated myself and got better jobs but I could still only live in areas where gangs held sway. Mostly hells angels, various national mafia's etc and a few criminal gangs on top. Maybe just the south east of england I guess but you still knew who not to cross and who to do a favour for if asked if you didnt want to end up bloody in an alley
Perhaps your area is like that, but not all are. And maybe the SE is different but anywhere I've ever lived in the NW, West Midlands or East Midlands has had sections of the town/city that are known to be shall we say problematic, and areas that are not.
Every town or city seems to have an area or two to avoid if you don't want what you're describing, but the rest is pretty good. And the locals, generally know exactly where is where too. If the SE is different to that, it's disappointing.
Incidentally I wouldn't even class all poor individuals or areas the same.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
I don't agree. I grew up poor, I educated myself and got better jobs but I could still only live in areas where gangs held sway. Mostly hells angels, various national mafia's etc and a few criminal gangs on top. Maybe just the south east of england I guess but you still knew who not to cross and who to do a favour for if asked if you didnt want to end up bloody in an alley
Perhaps your area is like that, but not all are. And maybe the SE is different but anywhere I've ever lived in the NW, West Midlands or East Midlands has had sections of the town/city that are known to be shall we say problematic, and areas that are not.
Every town or city seems to have an area or two to avoid if you don't want what you're describing, but the rest is pretty good. And the locals, generally know exactly where is where too. If the SE is different to that, it's disappointing.
Every town has black spots its true and ones that aren't. However the areas that aren't blackspots is purely because people goto the black spots and fulfil their needs whether buying drugs or hiring prostitutes. The civil area's are only civil on the surface
Incidentally I wouldn't even class all poor individuals or areas the same.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
I don't agree. I grew up poor, I educated myself and got better jobs but I could still only live in areas where gangs held sway. Mostly hells angels, various national mafia's etc and a few criminal gangs on top. Maybe just the south east of england I guess but you still knew who not to cross and who to do a favour for if asked if you didnt want to end up bloody in an alley
Perhaps your area is like that, but not all are. And maybe the SE is different but anywhere I've ever lived in the NW, West Midlands or East Midlands has had sections of the town/city that are known to be shall we say problematic, and areas that are not.
Every town or city seems to have an area or two to avoid if you don't want what you're describing, but the rest is pretty good. And the locals, generally know exactly where is where too. If the SE is different to that, it's disappointing.
Every town has black spots its true and ones that aren't. However the areas that aren't blackspots is purely because people goto the black spots and fulfil their needs whether buying drugs or hiring prostitutes. The civil area's are only civil on the surface
Not my experience. As I said, gravity attracts the problematic people to the blackspots and then tends to keep the rest of the area much better. At least in my experience.
I'm from Merseyside originally and while I no longer live there I could happily go back and live in Liverpool or one of its suburbs again. But you could not pay me enough to live or send my children to school in West Derby.
Incidentally I wouldn't even class all poor individuals or areas the same.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
I don't agree. I grew up poor, I educated myself and got better jobs but I could still only live in areas where gangs held sway. Mostly hells angels, various national mafia's etc and a few criminal gangs on top. Maybe just the south east of england I guess but you still knew who not to cross and who to do a favour for if asked if you didnt want to end up bloody in an alley
Perhaps your area is like that, but not all are. And maybe the SE is different but anywhere I've ever lived in the NW, West Midlands or East Midlands has had sections of the town/city that are known to be shall we say problematic, and areas that are not.
Every town or city seems to have an area or two to avoid if you don't want what you're describing, but the rest is pretty good. And the locals, generally know exactly where is where too. If the SE is different to that, it's disappointing.
Every town has black spots its true and ones that aren't. However the areas that aren't blackspots is purely because people goto the black spots and fulfil their needs whether buying drugs or hiring prostitutes. The civil area's are only civil on the surface
Not my experience. As I said, gravity attracts the problematic people to the blackspots and then tends to keep the rest of the area much better. At least in my experience.
I'm from Merseyside originally and while I no longer live there I could happily go back and live in Liverpool or one of its suburbs again. But you could not pay me enough to live or send my children to school in West Derby.
I didnt refer to problematic people and yes they tend to be in the blackspots but thinking drug, and prostitute use is majorally there is wrong. I have a family member that distributes by car and most deliveries aren't to the black spots as usually they cant afford it. He just works out of them
Incidentally I wouldn't even class all poor individuals or areas the same.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
I don't agree. I grew up poor, I educated myself and got better jobs but I could still only live in areas where gangs held sway. Mostly hells angels, various national mafia's etc and a few criminal gangs on top. Maybe just the south east of england I guess but you still knew who not to cross and who to do a favour for if asked if you didnt want to end up bloody in an alley
Perhaps your area is like that, but not all are. And maybe the SE is different but anywhere I've ever lived in the NW, West Midlands or East Midlands has had sections of the town/city that are known to be shall we say problematic, and areas that are not.
Every town or city seems to have an area or two to avoid if you don't want what you're describing, but the rest is pretty good. And the locals, generally know exactly where is where too. If the SE is different to that, it's disappointing.
Every town has black spots its true and ones that aren't. However the areas that aren't blackspots is purely because people goto the black spots and fulfil their needs whether buying drugs or hiring prostitutes. The civil area's are only civil on the surface
Not my experience. As I said, gravity attracts the problematic people to the blackspots and then tends to keep the rest of the area much better. At least in my experience.
I'm from Merseyside originally and while I no longer live there I could happily go back and live in Liverpool or one of its suburbs again. But you could not pay me enough to live or send my children to school in West Derby.
I didnt refer to problematic people and yes they tend to be in the blackspots but thinking drug, and prostitute use is majorally there is wrong. I have a family member that distributes by car and most deliveries aren't to the black spots as usually they cant afford it. He just works out of them
I thought we were discussing problematic people, sparking from our discussion of schools and parents who object to teachers/discipline at schools?
Yes non-violent drug use happens all over the entire country. And for the overwhelming majority of the country, quite frankly its not that big of a problem, if you keep it to yourself and don't commit crimes. Which is precisely why in my view, while drugs apart from caffeine/alcohol/medicinal are not for me, I fully support them all being legalised and taken out of the hands of the drug dealers and criminals.
If someone wants to buy LSD or cocaine or cannabis they ought to be able to go to a chemist or behind the counter at a supermarket and get a clean dose of whatever they want to buy, without the involvement of any criminals. But that's a whole different conversation to schooling.
Incidentally I wouldn't even class all poor individuals or areas the same.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
I don't agree. I grew up poor, I educated myself and got better jobs but I could still only live in areas where gangs held sway. Mostly hells angels, various national mafia's etc and a few criminal gangs on top. Maybe just the south east of england I guess but you still knew who not to cross and who to do a favour for if asked if you didnt want to end up bloody in an alley
Perhaps your area is like that, but not all are. And maybe the SE is different but anywhere I've ever lived in the NW, West Midlands or East Midlands has had sections of the town/city that are known to be shall we say problematic, and areas that are not.
Every town or city seems to have an area or two to avoid if you don't want what you're describing, but the rest is pretty good. And the locals, generally know exactly where is where too. If the SE is different to that, it's disappointing.
Every town has black spots its true and ones that aren't. However the areas that aren't blackspots is purely because people goto the black spots and fulfil their needs whether buying drugs or hiring prostitutes. The civil area's are only civil on the surface
Not my experience. As I said, gravity attracts the problematic people to the blackspots and then tends to keep the rest of the area much better. At least in my experience.
I'm from Merseyside originally and while I no longer live there I could happily go back and live in Liverpool or one of its suburbs again. But you could not pay me enough to live or send my children to school in West Derby.
I didnt refer to problematic people and yes they tend to be in the blackspots but thinking drug, and prostitute use is majorally there is wrong. I have a family member that distributes by car and most deliveries aren't to the black spots as usually they cant afford it. He just works out of them
I thought we were discussing problematic people, sparking from our discussion of schools and parents who object to teachers/discipline at schools?
Yes non-violent drug use happens all over the entire country. And for the overwhelming majority of the country, quite frankly its not that big of a problem, if you keep it to yourself and don't commit crimes. Which is precisely why in my view, while drugs apart from caffeine/alcohol/medicinal are not for me, I fully support them all being legalised and taken out of the hands of the drug dealers and criminals.
If someone wants to buy LSD or cocaine or cannabis they ought to be able to go to a chemist or behind the counter at a supermarket and get a clean dose of whatever they want to buy, without the involvement of any criminals. But that's a whole different conversation to schooling.
we moved onto blackspots I thought. Yes they bring people in, the desparate, the poor and the mentally declined however the fuel for the blackspots resides in the suburbs. If the distribution centres weren't needed then the poor wretches wouldnt gather round them.
Think in terms of a supermarket only the rich can buy from....the hungry will gather round the warehouse where they have a chance of some offcasts not the supermarkets themselves.
and yes I tend to the view drugs should be legal etc. However doesnt change the fact that the blackspots are there because distibution is there regardless
Incidentally I wouldn't even class all poor individuals or areas the same.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
I don't agree. I grew up poor, I educated myself and got better jobs but I could still only live in areas where gangs held sway. Mostly hells angels, various national mafia's etc and a few criminal gangs on top. Maybe just the south east of england I guess but you still knew who not to cross and who to do a favour for if asked if you didnt want to end up bloody in an alley
Perhaps your area is like that, but not all are. And maybe the SE is different but anywhere I've ever lived in the NW, West Midlands or East Midlands has had sections of the town/city that are known to be shall we say problematic, and areas that are not.
Every town or city seems to have an area or two to avoid if you don't want what you're describing, but the rest is pretty good. And the locals, generally know exactly where is where too. If the SE is different to that, it's disappointing.
Every town has black spots its true and ones that aren't. However the areas that aren't blackspots is purely because people goto the black spots and fulfil their needs whether buying drugs or hiring prostitutes. The civil area's are only civil on the surface
Not my experience. As I said, gravity attracts the problematic people to the blackspots and then tends to keep the rest of the area much better. At least in my experience.
I'm from Merseyside originally and while I no longer live there I could happily go back and live in Liverpool or one of its suburbs again. But you could not pay me enough to live or send my children to school in West Derby.
I didnt refer to problematic people and yes they tend to be in the blackspots but thinking drug, and prostitute use is majorally there is wrong. I have a family member that distributes by car and most deliveries aren't to the black spots as usually they cant afford it. He just works out of them
I thought we were discussing problematic people, sparking from our discussion of schools and parents who object to teachers/discipline at schools?
Yes non-violent drug use happens all over the entire country. And for the overwhelming majority of the country, quite frankly its not that big of a problem, if you keep it to yourself and don't commit crimes. Which is precisely why in my view, while drugs apart from caffeine/alcohol/medicinal are not for me, I fully support them all being legalised and taken out of the hands of the drug dealers and criminals.
If someone wants to buy LSD or cocaine or cannabis they ought to be able to go to a chemist or behind the counter at a supermarket and get a clean dose of whatever they want to buy, without the involvement of any criminals. But that's a whole different conversation to schooling.
we moved onto blackspots I thought. Yes they bring people in, the desparate, the poor and the mentally declined however the fuel for the blackspots resides in the suburbs. If the distribution centres weren't needed then the poor wretches wouldnt gather round them.
Think in terms of a supermarket only the rich can buy from....the hungry will gather round the warehouse where they have a chance of some offcasts not the supermarkets themselves.
and yes I tend to the view drugs should be legal etc. However doesnt change the fact that the blackspots are there because distibution is there regardless
Distribution will always exist. Eliminating demand is not going to happen, so get rid of prohibition and the problems it causes, don't blame people who are not causing problems because there's a supply chain somewhere else with problems caused entirely by prohibition.
Comments
Not nearly so good when you test it out at PhD standard, mind.
Rumours of a 22% turnout in Stretford & Urmston, which would make it the 3rd lowest EVER, after Manchester Central (2012, 18.2%) and Leeds Central (1999, 19.6%).
Nevertheless, one of my driving convictions is that life should be better for working class or lower middle class people who want or are able to get ahead.
I fear we have gone backwards (not just in the UK).
The strange thing is finding the mental blocks that people have in the oddest places about whom they are allowed to socialise with. They are often not what you’d expect - I had a very liberal boss who was upset that I drank in “town” pubs in Malmesbury.
Hang the immigrants, shit damn, etc.
Terrible taste in music, but he was one of the best things about PB.
Four of the staff later did time (one of them ten years) for sexual abuse.
Sink schools such as the one you describe are what results when all the middle class parents take their kids elsewhere, either geographically or by going private.
Schools need a group of pushy aspirational parents to keep standards up. These don't have to be middle class, there used to be a strong culture of self improvement amongst working class people. It is still there, but more splintered, as indeed most aspects of culture are.
The big difference for kids I believe is parents that both believe education is a good thing and encourage their kids to learn. The disruptive kids largely come from parents that also believe education is a waste of time. My parents among them
I’m not sure my career (which is tech adjacent) would have been the same had I gone into law or something.
My school was just so-so. We weren’t even good at rugby. Weirdly we had a reputation for musical theatre, in hindsight due to some talented music and drama teachers.
I don't know why people get stressed about other posters. I can only recall one who really got my goat and that was Plato. It wasn't her views but the way she would link to all manner of nonsense which you had to check out in case it had genuine betting implications. Most of it was nonsense but you wasted a lot of time establishing that. Very irritating if you were a serious punter.
Everyone else I've always been able to take or ignore as appropriate.
Many teachers and assistants etc can work very hard being fair with discipline and trying to encourage those children to redirect their energy to healthier pursuits. They should be applauded, appreciated and encouraged.
What do you say on the matter?
It’s superficially comforting but actually quite disturbing.
Law is supposed to be better, but friends in the scramble to survive that seems to be the top law firms say otherwise….
They really don’t want him again.
The question Republicans dare not ask: Will Trump drop out of the 2024 presidential race early?
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/3776105-the-question-republicans-dare-not-ask-will-trump-drop-out-of-the-2024-presidential-race-early/
It is noticeable in tech that two groups you never see are poor white working class (the last of the BT engineers who went contracting seem to have retired) and Afro-Caribbean. There are a few from first generation immigrant families from Africa.
There are some parents whose response to a child being in trouble is to be far more disappointed in the child and to ensure they know better is expected of them. There are others who would go into the school with an attitude of "how dare you tell off my child".
Good schools, whatever sector they are in, generally has far more to do with ensuring like-minded parents are involved.
There are better ways to deliver social mobility and a skilled workforce surely than a brutal cull aged 11.
My adopted daughter is afro carribean she is so inculcated with education is pointless that I am struggling to get her to see the point. Not my fault I didnt give her that attitude her parents did.
You can spend millions on a comprehensive in Grimsby, it still would not get as good results as a grammar run on a shoestring and nor would it offer the opportunities a grammar would to working class entrants at 11, 13 or 16
She learned from that incident. Having good discipline at school, backed up at home, she's never repeated that behaviour. She's been in trouble more than once for not listening, as many a young child might be, but never needed to be put on naughty or whatever it's called again.
Had we instead of getting her to write a Sorry card to her teacher gone in and heckled the teacher and said how dare you discipline our daughter etc, then things could have gone differently. If there's a culture in a schools parents of not backing up the teachers then the teachers job will be ten times harder and it'll be little surprise if they end up giving up or good teachers looking for other schools.
You didn't even go to a grammar school. I did. The opportunities available to all but those who were going to succeed anyway just didn't happen to the rest. The council house kids wound up in the B stream and were entered for CSEs so as not to drag down the school's 100% O level pass rate. Learning by rote to pass exams, it was s*** and class/wealth based bullying was rife.
Some recent post titles:
How Denver schools improved: Choice, accountability
No Shows
'Be all you can be' works for black soldiers
Ignoring smart kids isn't a smart strategy
(Almost all of you can find some support for your arguments on education in one or more of her posts.)
The issue is parents who don't value education. Some may be white, some may be Afro Caribbean and some may be something else. Race isn't the determining factor, the parents character along with possibly their own upbringing is.
A segregation we have today is that people can and do choose schooling based on discipline. I know poor parents whom I have heard speaking dismissively of certain schools that they wouldn't want their kids to go there because "it's too strict" etc, while other parents who value education welcome that.
I drive past three schools to take my kids to their state school that we opted to send them to, because we knew it was a good school with a strict and good reputation.
White and Afro Caribbean is about 85% if you want to bring race into it. If you want to talk about poor then talk about poor, the racial factor is redundant.
There can in this country within the span of five miles or so be well off areas, poor areas with poor attitudes and gang cultures, or poor areas with good attitudes and good schools.
The gravity model is often discussed on this site but a similar effect works within society too. Those who value education and discipline etc can choose to live in areas which value that, leaving behind those who don't to the sink schools and estates, even though the separate areas have people of the same class.
I would say most poor people in this country (depending upon definitions of poor) do still value education and discipline and aren't attracted to gangs etc. People being rational beings will try to avoid those problems if they can, even poor people, and they ought to be able to too.
Every town or city seems to have an area or two to avoid if you don't want what you're describing, but the rest is pretty good. And the locals, generally know exactly where is where too. If the SE is different to that, it's disappointing.
I'm from Merseyside originally and while I no longer live there I could happily go back and live in Liverpool or one of its suburbs again. But you could not pay me enough to live or send my children to school in West Derby.
Yes non-violent drug use happens all over the entire country. And for the overwhelming majority of the country, quite frankly its not that big of a problem, if you keep it to yourself and don't commit crimes. Which is precisely why in my view, while drugs apart from caffeine/alcohol/medicinal are not for me, I fully support them all being legalised and taken out of the hands of the drug dealers and criminals.
If someone wants to buy LSD or cocaine or cannabis they ought to be able to go to a chemist or behind the counter at a supermarket and get a clean dose of whatever they want to buy, without the involvement of any criminals. But that's a whole different conversation to schooling.
Think in terms of a supermarket only the rich can buy from....the hungry will gather round the warehouse where they have a chance of some offcasts not the supermarkets themselves.
and yes I tend to the view drugs should be legal etc. However doesnt change the fact that the blackspots are there because distibution is there regardless
@BritainElects
Stretford and Urmston parliamentary by-election, result:
LAB: 69.6% (+9.3)
CON: 15.9% (-11.7)
GRN: 4.3% (+1.6)
LDEM: 3.6% (-2.4)
REF: 3.5% (+3.5)
REU: 1.3% (+1.3)
IND: 1.0% (+1.0)
FA: 0.4% (+0.4)
SDP: 0.4% (+0.4)
(This is NOT a personal question directed at any PBer. Well, ALMOST any!)
In this case it's ((9.3%+11.7%)/2) = 10.5%.