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Deltapoll from 2019 on having a passport and voting Leave – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,648
edited November 2022 in General
Deltapoll from 2019 on having a passport and voting Leave – politicalbetting.com

This from Joe Twyman three years ago is relevant to today's developments on the requirement for photo ID before you can vote https://t.co/4lW6vSKcnC

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Politico.com - Jayapal’s announcement: Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) said Friday she would run for another term as chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, opting against a bid for Democratic leadership.

    “As Chair of the CPC, I will put my energy toward ensuring Democrats are not only a critically important ‘opposition’ party to push back on draconian MAGA-Republican policies, but also a ‘proposition’ party, with a real vision that builds an even bigger movement to lift up poor people, working people, people of color, immigrants, LGBTQ+ people, and those who just need a leg up to thrive not just survive. That is what will help propel us to victory in 2024,” she wrote in a letter to her colleagues.

    Her decision: In an interview, Jayapal said she’d “seriously considered” a run for House Democratic leadership, but opted against it. Excitement about the incoming group of progressive lawmakers and the signals she received about the group’s growing influence over policy convinced her to make another run, potentially her second as the solo chair. (She’d served a previous term as the co-chair of the group.)

    SSI - Interpretation - Rep. Jayapal chickens out of leadership race, thank to her "contribution" to 2022 midterms.

    My guess is, my Congresswoman will be lucky to get herself re-elected CPC chair, after she left her progressive colleagues hanging out to dry, via untimely release of their "throw Putin a lifeline" letter just prior to Election Day 2022.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,705
    Third
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,967
    Well the power of PB because I've had a complete 180 in a single day - let's have voter ID!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    This had better be one hell of a persuasive piece to try to make this argument - definitely setting itself a tough target for an article.

    John Mearsheimer on Putin’s Ambitions After Nine Months of War
    The realist political scientist explains why Russia’s move to annex four Ukrainian provinces isn’t imperialism.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/john-mearsheimer-on-putins-ambitions-after-nine-months-of-war
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,470
    FPT: kinabalu was arguing repeatedly that the British Empire was wicked. Which reminded me of polling* done more than a decade ago in both the US and the UK. In both nations, about half of the main party on the left believed their nation was a bad nation with some redeeming features, while almost all in the main party on the right thought their nation was a good nation with some faults.

    That was, I thought at the time, was one of the advantages the parties on the right had over the parties on the left.

    (*I'm sorry I can't be more precise, but thought the observation might be of interest, anyway. I haven't seen any recent polling on that question, but haven't looked for it, either.)
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,803
    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    RobD said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    RobD said:

    Anabobazina said:

    PB Tories:

    No to National ID cards, ugh.

    PB Tories:

    Yes to Voting ID cards, hurrah.



    Only from the PB Tories.


    Only on PB.

    The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
    Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
    The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
    Tiny, insignificant numbers. The ID proposals will do far more to warp representation and election results than any of the identified voter fraud. But of course the calculation by the Tories is that it will warp it in their favour. Hence the proposals.
    I think this is the rub of it. The particular example of the oyster card was honestly not a good one, but the proposals still amount to the old chestnut about sledgehammers to crack nuts. Whether the party would actually benefit is somewhat secondary to whether they believed it would, and it is hard to imagine they would be pushed so hard on the basis of the extent of the identified problem.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    I don't find it amusing; I find it deeply disturbing.

    Is this not open to challenge in the courts? Age discrimination, if nothing else.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    'So much for: 'Accountability, integrity and professionalism' https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1593642826516111361
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    Exclusive: Matt Hancock may be barred from standing at next election

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/65db9000-6750-11ed-9ccc-9d160947f622?shareToken=3ec07a3af71ddb960451985955aeae1f
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    edited November 2022
    Benpointer said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    I don't find it amusing; I find it deeply disturbing.

    Is this not open to challenge in the courts? Age discrimination, if nothing else.
    Where young people still have alternatives it doesn't seem likely, if the government can show (whether people agree or not) that there was a reason to justify why one form is more appropriate as formal ID for voting purposes than another. A court couldn't just substitute its own judgement on that, and on a process level it would be defensible.

    Though the whole thing shows why the whole affair is not worth the marginal gains, since it stirs up aggravation and mistrust in the voting system, and is definitely more confusing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,132
    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive: Matt Hancock may be barred from standing at next election

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/65db9000-6750-11ed-9ccc-9d160947f622?shareToken=3ec07a3af71ddb960451985955aeae1f

    Noooooo! How would we cope with losing such a dedicated, brilliant, selfless, intelligent, public serv...oh hold on, did you say Matt Hancock?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    OnlyLivingBoy said:

    Leon said:

    felix said:

    MikeL said:

    The interesting thing is what will Labour do?

    Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.

    The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.

    And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.

    Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.

    Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.

    And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.

    So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.

    The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
    It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more

    It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"

    Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
    What is the Tories' pitch to the electorate? “We got Brexit done" for the ever diminishing number of people for whom that's a positive. For the rest of us?...
    Keir Starmer supported Jeremy Corbyn. You know, that man who probably won't be able to stand as a Labour candidate under Keir.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive: Matt Hancock may be barred from standing at next election

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/65db9000-6750-11ed-9ccc-9d160947f622?shareToken=3ec07a3af71ddb960451985955aeae1f

    Noooooo! How would we cope with losing such a dedicated, brilliant, selfless, intelligent, public serv...oh hold on, did you say Matt Hancock?
    Not the worst Hancock to serve in Parliament at any rate.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    So here’s our latest UK economic confidence data - or rather LACK of confidence https://twitter.com/benatipsos/status/1593647778261090304/photo/1
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,803
    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive: Matt Hancock may be barred from standing at next election

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/65db9000-6750-11ed-9ccc-9d160947f622?shareToken=3ec07a3af71ddb960451985955aeae1f


    Matt Hancock is to be blocked from standing as a Conservative MP at the next election if he fails to regain the Tory whip promptly, The Times understands.

    Conservative MPs must tell the party headquarters by December 5 whether they want to reapply to stand in their current seat or a new constituency created by boundary changes coming into effect for the next election.

    I have to admit I don't really get the level of antipathy Hancock provokes. Those saying he has masses of blood on his hands are overly harsh, and for the rest of it, well, he was a ministerial hypocrite who lost his job as a result, and a terrible husband, and seems to be a bit of a plonker. Seems disdain is more appropriate than the bile he gets, and the apparent eagerness on his own side to get him seems weird.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Speaking of passports and IDs . . . interesting obit in today's NYT ($)

    Virginia McLaurin, Who Spontaneously Danced With the Obamas, Dies

    . . . She was 113 by her own account, although she did not have a birth certificate. . . .

    . . . she believed it had been recorded in a family Bible as March 12, 1909 . . . According to . . . vital records department in South Carolina . . . she was born on March 12, 1916, but the letter also noted that no birth records for her had been found . . . .

    One of her passions was voting. In videos that she recorded ahead of the 2016 election, she encouraged young people to vote for a simple reason: It was the only way to be counted.

    "Please go vote," she said in one. "Go vote. If you don't do anything else - if you have to crawl - go to the poll and vote."

    Ms. McLaurin also used her public perch, to draw attention to her inability to obtain the government identification needed to board an airplane. Getting a nondriver photo ID would have required a birth certificate from South Carolina, but to get the certificate, she would have needed the ID.

    "I don't think I'll ever get that face card," Ms. McLauren [said] . . . two weeks after her visit to the White House. "I was birthed by a midwife and the birthday put in a Bible somewhere. I don't know if they even had birth certificates back then."

    Days [later] Mayor Muriel E. Bowser of Washington announced a new regulation that modified the requirements for getting the ID for people 70 and older. She also visited Ms. McLarin's home and stood by as she signed the paperwork.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    This is awesome

    Twitter still seems to be operating fine with...checks notes... 70% fewer employees in a week.

    If the rumors hold true it will be down 88% since acquisition by Monday.

    My bet is the site stays up.
    https://twitter.com/alexeheath/status/1593399683086327808

    @MichaelGuimarin It basically flies itself. https://twitter.com/eIonmusk_X/status/1593542016436436992/photo/1


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    Scott_xP said:

    This is awesome

    Twitter still seems to be operating fine with...checks notes... 70% fewer employees in a week.

    If the rumors hold true it will be down 88% since acquisition by Monday.

    My bet is the site stays up.
    https://twitter.com/alexeheath/status/1593399683086327808

    @MichaelGuimarin It basically flies itself. https://twitter.com/eIonmusk_X/status/1593542016436436992/photo/1


    Total coincidence it was a blimp with that particular symbol on it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Malmesbury said:

    kinabalu said:

    Malmesbury said:

    kinabalu said:

    Malmesbury said:

    Cookie said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
    Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
    I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.

    But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
    I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.

    I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.

    This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
    That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
    Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.

    One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.

    Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.

    And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.

    Chaos will ensue.

    Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this.
    See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
    People bang on about woke.

    But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.

    In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
    Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
    It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.

    Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?

    It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
    I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
    Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.

    It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”

    They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.

    That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
    Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.

    However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.

    It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.

    “Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?”
    “I condemn all forms of racism.”
    “Is that a yes?”
    “I condemn all forms of racism.”
    “Including antisemitism?”
    “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”

    And he's up and off and running.

    The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.

    Challenge for people there. :smile:
    Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you

    Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that

    What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations

    The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
    Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.

    Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.

    My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.

    Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
    Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
    See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.

    Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.

    So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?

    I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
    You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
    Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?

    Leon: What about the Romans?
    Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument

    I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!

    I know you're a retired accountant, but still
    CHARTERED accountant.

    Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.

    So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.

    Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
    OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries

    It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
    It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
    Stet
    In general, I'd say there are a lot more grey hats than black hats in history. If we "enjoyed" the standard of living, and generally more violent circumstances, of people who lived hundreds of years ago, we would behave in exactly the same way as they did. It would be extremely arrogant to think otherwise.
    Yep. Long and complex, history is. But this undeniable fact doesn't mean taking a neutral moral view on everything apart from binary extremities like the Nazis and the Virgin Mary. And my initial observation - illustrated perfectly by the response - was merely that I'm struck by how many people either can't acknowledge the malign fundamentals of our colonialism, or can't do so without plunging into "context" in the same post.

    Maybe you can though. Because you do surprise me sometimes.
    I agree with Jan Morris. There was good, bad, and ugly. Chattel slave trading was wicked by any measure. So, were the actions of Robert Clive and his associates. Ditto the massacre of Tasmanian aborigines.

    But, do I think that the creation of new nations comprising (in total) hundreds of people, living prosperous and free lives, was overall, a bad thing? No. Do I think that the actions of the Royal Navy, in the 19th century, in terms of suppressing piracy and slaving, were bad? No. Do I think a man like James Brooke materially improved the lives of Sarawak's people? Undoubtedly.

    An unpleasant paradox of empire was that the more that colonies moved towards self-government, quite often minorities and indigenous peoples who had received at least some protection from colonial authorities, got a much worse time of it.
    Ok. But I'm talking about its essence. What it was all about at its core. Being the oppression and exploitation by 'us' of other people and places. It was huge and longlasting, with consequences (good bad and neither) to fill many books, and allowing many viable takes, but this doesn't mean it didn't have a core essence you can detect and have a view on.
    Was the creation of England (or other European nations) fundamentally malign? After all, it involved a variety of North Western European tribes fighting their way into the country, and vying for dominance.

    I think few of us would take that view.
    Possibly. But why strain back into ancient times to find (in any case not very) equivalents rather than just looking at the essence of the quite recent, massive in scale, British Empire? Why not acknowledge its fundamental nature (malign) as a useful framing for discussing its complexities? This brings clarity. It's not a dumbing down.
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    kinabalu said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.

    I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.

    I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
    How and why was it’s fundamental essence malign?

    Are you referring to its anti-democratic nature, in which case is every society in history pre circa 1850 “fundamentally malign”?
    The subjugation and exploitation of other people and places. The greed and white supremacy racism which lay at the heart of the enterprise and fuelled it. So surely 'malign in essence' is fair. None of which is to say uniquely so, or even especially so, compared to the imperialism of others, or that it didn't have some positive consequences.
    Most 19th century abolitionists were racists, in our terms. A lot of them thought it would be a good thing if freed blacks were sent to Liberia and Sierra Leone. Scarcely any of them thought of blacks and whites enjoying equal rights. But, I don't think that taints their abolitionism.
    I agree with both these points, frankly.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    Oyster 18+ - the one that paranoid lefties are particularly complaining about for some reason - doesn't.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    Polls good for the Tory’s today - Mori is a Labour friendly pollster, so no great shakes for Labour from that one - pre budget but still useful as the next one will have all the post budget built in for comparison, Omnisis always report Tory share too low, and 28 from Delta in post budget poll is a solid poll for Tory share.
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 194
    I tend to agree about Hancock. A plonker but he didn't make you want to smash the TV or radio every time he spoke viz. Dorries, Mogg, Braverman, Hayes, some of the neanderthal redwallers who were actually made ministers (yes!) during the brief Boris/Truss interregnum.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,721
    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive: Matt Hancock may be barred from standing at next election

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/65db9000-6750-11ed-9ccc-9d160947f622?shareToken=3ec07a3af71ddb960451985955aeae1f

    Why would he want to?

    Might as well get on with his life now. Which, to be fair, he seems to be doing.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,770
    Scott_xP said:

    This is awesome

    Twitter still seems to be operating fine with...checks notes... 70% fewer employees in a week.

    If the rumors hold true it will be down 88% since acquisition by Monday.

    My bet is the site stays up.
    https://twitter.com/alexeheath/status/1593399683086327808

    @MichaelGuimarin It basically flies itself. https://twitter.com/eIonmusk_X/status/1593542016436436992/photo/1


    The beauty of this story is... whilst I don't know who is right and wrong.... it is going to be pretty obvious in 4 weeks if Twitter completely collapses... or... doesn't.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    If Rishi is too scared to put people up for the morning round will Keir volunteer instead?

    Oh

    This approach just doesn't work. Issues will pile up, opposition voices will fill the airwaves & govt will complain they are being misunderstood
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1593652289104973825
    https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1593642826516111361
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,803
    edited November 2022
    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    Oyster 18+ - the one that paranoid lefties are particularly complaining about for some reason - doesn't.
    'Tis an Oyster not a railcard and I agree, its a poor comparison. The 18-25 and 26-30 require photographic ID and are notably absent.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    rkrkrk said:

    The beauty of this story is... whilst I don't know who is right and wrong.... it is going to be pretty obvious in 4 weeks if Twitter completely collapses... or... doesn't.

    The betting action should be does the system fall over before he runs out of cash...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    Biden leads DeSantis by 4%.

    NEW 2024 Presidential Election Hypothetical Voting Intention (17 November):

    Joe Biden: 43%
    Ron DeSantis: 39%
    Don't Know: 12%

    https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/joe-biden-administration-approval-ratings-and-hypothetical-voting-intention-17-november-2022 https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1593652813208461312/photo/1
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    No photo on my disabled persons railcard.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,409
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive: Matt Hancock may be barred from standing at next election

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/65db9000-6750-11ed-9ccc-9d160947f622?shareToken=3ec07a3af71ddb960451985955aeae1f


    Matt Hancock is to be blocked from standing as a Conservative MP at the next election if he fails to regain the Tory whip promptly, The Times understands.

    Conservative MPs must tell the party headquarters by December 5 whether they want to reapply to stand in their current seat or a new constituency created by boundary changes coming into effect for the next election.

    I have to admit I don't really get the level of antipathy Hancock provokes. Those saying he has masses of blood on his hands are overly harsh, and for the rest of it, well, he was a ministerial hypocrite who lost his job as a result, and a terrible husband, and seems to be a bit of a plonker. Seems disdain is more appropriate than the bile he gets, and the apparent eagerness on his own side to get him seems weird.
    There are some pretty deep criticisms of his actions on PPE and care homes. But I agree that it comes over as odd from his own side - he's not the only one who was involved in those decisions. And the "big calls right" excuse, if Tories want to make that argument, surely has to be made for him as much as Johnson.

    I wonder if he's looking at the next election anyway. Some of the comments from party figures in his area and nationally are disouraging to say the least, and I'm not sure what his route back to frontline politics is.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    . . . and then there were five . . . undecided seats in US House that is, according to AP > NYT:

    Three where Republican is currently leading"
    > CA22 - Valadao ahead by +4,445 votes (+6%) with est 70% of votes counted so far
    > CA03 - Kiley ahead by +9,472 (+5%) with est 61% counted
    > CA13 - Duarte ahead by +827 votes (+0.67%) with est 93% counted - likely recount
    > CO03 - Boebert ahead by +551 votes (+0.21%) with over 95% counted - almost certain recount

    And one where Democratic incumbent is now leading in first-preferences
    > AK At Large - with est. 90% of votes counted for 1st pref, Peltola currently has 48.1%, compared to Republicans Palin with 26.1% and Begich with 23.8, Libertarian Bye with 1.7%, and 0.3% writeins.

    Based on above numbers, Peltota looks HIGHLY likely to be re-elected, prevailing (yet again) over Palin when 2nd preference votes for writeins, Bye and Begich are factored in for final result.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,049
    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is awesome

    Twitter still seems to be operating fine with...checks notes... 70% fewer employees in a week.

    If the rumors hold true it will be down 88% since acquisition by Monday.

    My bet is the site stays up.
    https://twitter.com/alexeheath/status/1593399683086327808

    @MichaelGuimarin It basically flies itself. https://twitter.com/eIonmusk_X/status/1593542016436436992/photo/1


    The beauty of this story is... whilst I don't know who is right and wrong.... it is going to be pretty obvious in 4 weeks if Twitter completely collapses... or... doesn't.
    Is it?

    What will kill Twitter is a random issue and this is a great overview

    https://twitter.com/MosquitoCapital/status/1593541177965678592

    And today I’ve spent my entire day discussing such an issue at current clientco. A seemingly minor issue in 1 development environment which resulted in A pulled weekend deployment. We will try again next week.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    MoonRabbit said:

    Polls good for the Tory’s today - Mori is a Labour friendly pollster, so no great shakes for Labour from that one - pre budget but still useful as the next one will have all the post budget built in for comparison, Omnisis always report Tory share too low, and 28 from Delta in post budget poll is a solid poll for Tory share.

    You're being ironic, right?
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,803
    edited November 2022
    Benpointer said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    No photo on my disabled persons railcard.
    Ah, do you know why? And Is there even one on the Blue Badges?

  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,880
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Exclusive: Matt Hancock may be barred from standing at next election

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/65db9000-6750-11ed-9ccc-9d160947f622?shareToken=3ec07a3af71ddb960451985955aeae1f

    Noooooo! How would we cope with losing such a dedicated, brilliant, selfless, intelligent, public serv...oh hold on, did you say Matt Hancock?
    Well I thought Hancock was, in the words of someone else downthread, a plonker. His insistence on trusting dodgy models, on not questioning dubious advice, his sole focus on covid at the expense of all else ... frankly, he was replaced at least 9 months too late.
    But I don't question his dedication, nor even his selflessness. In the early months of covid he looked absolutely shattered. He must have worked for 100 days straight. He was never off. It's no wonder the quality of decision making was less than perfect.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,132
    edited November 2022
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is awesome

    Twitter still seems to be operating fine with...checks notes... 70% fewer employees in a week.

    If the rumors hold true it will be down 88% since acquisition by Monday.

    My bet is the site stays up.
    https://twitter.com/alexeheath/status/1593399683086327808

    @MichaelGuimarin It basically flies itself. https://twitter.com/eIonmusk_X/status/1593542016436436992/photo/1


    Total coincidence it was a blimp with that particular symbol on it.
    I was thinking how appropriate that for their metaphor they used something ridiculously large, consisting of otherwise empty spaces filled with easily inflamed gas.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,409
    SeaShantyIrish2 said:

    . . . and then there were five . . . undecided seats in US House that is, according to AP > NYT:

    Three where Republican is currently leading"
    > CA22 - Valadao ahead by +4,445 votes (+6%) with est 70% of votes counted so far
    > CA03 - Kiley ahead by +9,472 (+5%) with est 61% counted
    > CA13 - Duarte ahead by +827 votes (+0.67%) with est 93% counted - likely recount
    > CO03 - Boebert ahead by +551 votes (+0.21%) with over 95% counted - almost certain recount

    And one where Democratic incumbent is now leading in first-preferences
    > AK At Large - with est. 90% of votes counted for 1st pref, Peltola currently has 48.1%, compared to Republicans Palin with 26.1% and Begich with 23.8, Libertarian Bye with 1.7%, and 0.3% writeins.

    Based on above numbers, Peltota looks HIGHLY likely to be re-elected, prevailing (yet again) over Palin when 2nd preference votes for writeins, Bye and Begich are factored in for final result.

    In reality, all five of those look likely to go to the vote leader.

    Alaska would take Begich voters acting VERY differently to the special election. The first two California ones are GOP seats where not enough votes have been counted to be sure but they look unexciting. The other California one and Boebert look close but no cigar for the Democrats. It's not like the UK with bundle counts etc where you can spot an error that actually creates a fairly big movement. 551 votes (0.2%) is very likely to survive a recount (particular shame in Boebert's case, but there it is).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,079
    edited November 2022
    MightyAlex said:

    Benpointer said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    No photo on my disabled persons railcard.
    Ah, do you know why? And Is there even one on the Blue Badges?

    Hassle. Especially (as I know from helping a relative) that the application system involves official authentication the first time round. So no need to repeat. And because most - though not all - disabilities are pretty obvious up front. So why waste everyone's time on further ID if the chap in front of you has a wheelchair and a paid for ticket?

    https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/

    Edit: even *making* people go and get a passport photo can be pretty iffy for some folk. Ergo discriminatory if it is unnecessary.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,469
    edited November 2022
    The evidence of colleagues is that Hancock was not just a plonker but at times a rather mendacious one.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,079
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is awesome

    Twitter still seems to be operating fine with...checks notes... 70% fewer employees in a week.

    If the rumors hold true it will be down 88% since acquisition by Monday.

    My bet is the site stays up.
    https://twitter.com/alexeheath/status/1593399683086327808

    @MichaelGuimarin It basically flies itself. https://twitter.com/eIonmusk_X/status/1593542016436436992/photo/1


    Total coincidence it was a blimp with that particular symbol on it.
    I was thinking how appropriate that for their metaphor they used something ridiculously large, consisting of otherwise empty spaces filled with easily inflamed gas.
    Pedantic betting: that is a Zeppelin-type rigid airship, though famously filled with hydrogen. The blimps werre non-rigid, but inflated with nonflammable helium (except perhaps for the earliest). This is a blimp.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodyear_Blimp
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    edited November 2022
    Carnyx said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Benpointer said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    No photo on my disabled persons railcard.
    Ah, do you know why? And Is there even one on the Blue Badges?

    Hassle. Especially (as I know from helping a relative) that the application system involves official authentication the first time round. So no need to repeat. And because most - though not all - disabilities are pretty obvious up front. So why waste everyone's time on further ID if the chap in front of you has a wheelchair and a paid for ticket?

    https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/

    Edit: even *making* people go and get a passport photo can be pretty iffy for some folk. Ergo discriminatory if it is unnecessary.
    But you do have to provide a photo for a Blue Badge. (Though no one checks it's really a photo of you of course, so it's f*ck all use in confirming someone's ID tbh)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    MightyAlex said:

    Benpointer said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    No photo on my disabled persons railcard.
    Ah, do you know why? And Is there even one on the Blue Badges?


    No. And yes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    edited November 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without freaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,289
    All these buggers getting Oyster Cards under somebody else's name, just so they can draw two sets of cock and balls on two separate ballots.

    That. Is. A. Disgrace.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    No photo ID required for a postal vote or a proxy vote.

    How is this secure?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003093/Postal-vote-application-form-English.pdf
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,880
    On thread - a clear example of correlation <> causation.
    We know rich people are more likely to be Remainers. Broadly, membership was good if you had assets, bad if you had labour.
    And having a passport is more common if you're rich than poor. Why have a passport if you can't afford a foreign holiday?
    So the result above is not surprising.
    FWIW, while I did have a passport at the time of the vote, I didn't have one when we Brexited, for the reasons above
    Though having inherited a little money I have recently reaquired one.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,079
    Benpointer said:

    No photo ID required for a postal vote or a proxy vote.

    How is this secure?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003093/Postal-vote-application-form-English.pdf

    Same address as the registered address - so postie delivers. Postie doesn't look at the recipient's face.

    Of course anyone could be opening it and filling in the form on the other side of the door, so photos wouldn't help?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    Indeed, but that Tweet was posted by a Telegraph journalist who is abso-fucking-lutely freaking the fuck out over it...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    This is awesome

    Twitter still seems to be operating fine with...checks notes... 70% fewer employees in a week.

    If the rumors hold true it will be down 88% since acquisition by Monday.

    My bet is the site stays up.
    https://twitter.com/alexeheath/status/1593399683086327808

    @MichaelGuimarin It basically flies itself. https://twitter.com/eIonmusk_X/status/1593542016436436992/photo/1


    Total coincidence it was a blimp with that particular symbol on it.
    I was thinking how appropriate that for their metaphor they used something ridiculously large, consisting of otherwise empty spaces filled with easily inflamed gas.
    Pedantic betting: that is a Zeppelin-type rigid airship, though famously filled with hydrogen. The blimps werre non-rigid, but inflated with nonflammable helium (except perhaps for the earliest). This is a blimp.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodyear_Blimp
    No, that is a post.

    Ceci n'est pas un dirigeable:

    image
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,311
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
    I do not believe the Tory MPs, or the most vocal of their supporters, will permit that. They have Farage to moon over to keen Sunak on track.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,079
    Benpointer said:

    Carnyx said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Benpointer said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    No photo on my disabled persons railcard.
    Ah, do you know why? And Is there even one on the Blue Badges?

    Hassle. Especially (as I know from helping a relative) that the application system involves official authentication the first time round. So no need to repeat. And because most - though not all - disabilities are pretty obvious up front. So why waste everyone's time on further ID if the chap in front of you has a wheelchair and a paid for ticket?

    https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/

    Edit: even *making* people go and get a passport photo can be pretty iffy for some folk. Ergo discriminatory if it is unnecessary.
    But you do have to provide a photo for a Blue Badge. (Though no one checks it's really a photo of you of course, so it's f*ck all use in confirming someone's ID tbh)
    I can only imagine it's because it's not paid for or screened in even the rudimentary way that a train ticket inspector would give someone the quick once-over on the train when punching the ticket.
  • barrykennabarrykenna Posts: 206
    Scott_xP said:

    If Rishi is too scared to put people up for the morning round will Keir volunteer instead?

    Oh

    This approach just doesn't work. Issues will pile up, opposition voices will fill the airwaves & govt will complain they are being misunderstood
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1593652289104973825
    https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1593642826516111361

    On the other hand, I am not sure that Government Ministers often appeared on the Today programme back in the days of Jack De Manio in the late 50s and early to mid 60s. I have never felt that political parties should jump to the tune of the broadcasters. The fact that the latter wish to put on a particular programme imposes no obligation on parties to appear on them. I feel the same way re-General Election debates - the parties should please themselves.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    Indeed, but that Tweet was posted by a Telegraph journalist who is abso-fucking-lutely freaking the fuck out over it...
    Any sign that the government was ignoring extremist nutters like that as well as extremist nutters from the other side like you would be a good sign.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,880
    Scott_xP said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    Indeed, but that Tweet was posted by a Telegraph journalist who is abso-fucking-lutely freaking the fuck out over it...
    Eh? Have you read the article? I wouldn't describe it as 'freaking the fuck out'.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    kle4 said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
    I do not believe the Tory MPs, or the most vocal of their supporters, will permit that. They have Farage to moon over to keen Sunak on track.
    I think most people, except for the pathologically deranged and those of extremely sub-normal IQ, know that Brexit was pointless. It will go back to being the lowliest of priorities, particularly now Putin's bot factories have bigger fish to fry than susceptible British middle-aged Facebook users.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,202
    re Twitter

    It will run itself until "something" like a misconfigured DNS, or a key drive crashes, or something.

    At which point they will be in a world of hurt.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Carnyx said:

    Benpointer said:

    Carnyx said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Benpointer said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    No photo on my disabled persons railcard.
    Ah, do you know why? And Is there even one on the Blue Badges?

    Hassle. Especially (as I know from helping a relative) that the application system involves official authentication the first time round. So no need to repeat. And because most - though not all - disabilities are pretty obvious up front. So why waste everyone's time on further ID if the chap in front of you has a wheelchair and a paid for ticket?

    https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/

    Edit: even *making* people go and get a passport photo can be pretty iffy for some folk. Ergo discriminatory if it is unnecessary.
    But you do have to provide a photo for a Blue Badge. (Though no one checks it's really a photo of you of course, so it's f*ck all use in confirming someone's ID tbh)
    I can only imagine it's because it's not paid for or screened in even the rudimentary way that a train ticket inspector would give someone the quick once-over on the train when punching the ticket.
    Which?

    The disabled person's rail card costs £20 per year or £54 for 3 years.

    The blue badge costs £10 (for two years) and has considerable potential value of course.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,880
    Gardenwalker said:

    The evidence of colleagues is that Hancock was not just a plonker but at times a rather mendacious one.

    You don't need the evidence of colleagues for that. In 2020 he was presenting models and projections which were already false when he was presenting them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,629
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
    OH dear no. The next election is horribly lost for the Tories. And probably the one after that

    Better get used to it
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,880
    Cookie said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    The evidence of colleagues is that Hancock was not just a plonker but at times a rather mendacious one.

    You don't need the evidence of colleagues for that. In 2020 he was presenting models and projections which were already false when he was presenting them.
    He was from the "if they won't believe us when we tell the truth about how bad things are we will have to lie to them" school of thought.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Benpointer said:

    No photo ID required for a postal vote or a proxy vote.

    How is this secure?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003093/Postal-vote-application-form-English.pdf

    The Tories don’t care as the vast majority of postal votes are sent by over 65s.

    It’s extraordinary how little the media are making of the change in voting ID requirements .
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Carnyx said:

    Benpointer said:

    No photo ID required for a postal vote or a proxy vote.

    How is this secure?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003093/Postal-vote-application-form-English.pdf

    Same address as the registered address - so postie delivers. Postie doesn't look at the recipient's face.

    Of course anyone could be opening it and filling in the form on the other side of the door, so photos wouldn't help?
    Er... you missed section 3 on the form:

    Address for ballot paper (only required if different to the address where you are registered to vote)
    Please send my ballot paper to (address):

    The reason I would like my ballot paper sent to this address, rather than my registered address is:
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    Ireland asks members of Russian Embassy in Dublin to leave https://bbc.in/3tI3YSo
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Leon said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
    OH dear no. The next election is horribly lost for the Tories. And probably the one after that

    Better get used to it
    Well, your lot (the populist Brexit fantasists) have certainly done their best to achieve that, but as the man said, a week is a long time in politics.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,202
    kle4 said:

    This had better be one hell of a persuasive piece to try to make this argument - definitely setting itself a tough target for an article.

    John Mearsheimer on Putin’s Ambitions After Nine Months of War
    The realist political scientist explains why Russia’s move to annex four Ukrainian provinces isn’t imperialism.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/john-mearsheimer-on-putins-ambitions-after-nine-months-of-war

    I've read that article, and the man is a fucking loon.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    nico679 said:

    Benpointer said:

    No photo ID required for a postal vote or a proxy vote.

    How is this secure?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003093/Postal-vote-application-form-English.pdf

    The Tories don’t care as the vast majority of postal votes are sent by over 65s.

    It’s extraordinary how little the media are making of the change in voting ID requirements .
    We do have local elections next May at which the fiasco will become clear, I suppose.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,426
    rcs1000 said:

    re Twitter

    It will run itself until "something" like a misconfigured DNS, or a key drive crashes, or something.

    At which point they will be in a world of hurt.

    I think the disappearance of twitter could be considered a blessing for humanity.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    rcs1000 said:

    re Twitter

    It will run itself until "something" like a misconfigured DNS, or a key drive crashes, or something.

    At which point they will be in a world of hurt.

    They are lucky the World Cup seems to be attracting so little attention so far. It would normally be huge driver of traffic
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,554
    barrykenna said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If Rishi is too scared to put people up for the morning round will Keir volunteer instead?

    Oh

    This approach just doesn't work. Issues will pile up, opposition voices will fill the airwaves & govt will complain they are being misunderstood
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1593652289104973825
    https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1593642826516111361

    On the other hand, I am not sure that Government Ministers often appeared on the Today programme back in the days of Jack De Manio in the late 50s and early to mid 60s. I have never felt that political parties should jump to the tune of the broadcasters. The fact that the latter wish to put on a particular programme imposes no obligation on parties to appear on them. I feel the same way re-General Election debates - the parties should please themselves.
    Avoiding the media makes sense when you are comfortable ahead and are nervous about things going wrong.

    Avoiding the media when you are hugely behind and really need something to change the narrative... That's another matter.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Leon said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
    OH dear no. The next election is horribly lost for the Tories. And probably the one after that

    Better get used to it
    Ideal scenario: Tories effectively re-join Single Market, get accused of u-turning on Brexit by the only voters they have left, Labour win a landslide and reap the benefits of the Single Market.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    Benpointer said:

    nico679 said:

    Benpointer said:

    No photo ID required for a postal vote or a proxy vote.

    How is this secure?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003093/Postal-vote-application-form-English.pdf

    The Tories don’t care as the vast majority of postal votes are sent by over 65s.

    It’s extraordinary how little the media are making of the change in voting ID requirements .
    We do have local elections next May at which the fiasco will become clear, I suppose.
    I'm sure there will be Labour activists performatively "being denied their right to vote", anyway.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560
    Stuartinromford said:

    barrykenna said:

    Scott_xP said:

    If Rishi is too scared to put people up for the morning round will Keir volunteer instead?

    Oh

    This approach just doesn't work. Issues will pile up, opposition voices will fill the airwaves & govt will complain they are being misunderstood
    https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1593652289104973825
    https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1593642826516111361

    On the other hand, I am not sure that Government Ministers often appeared on the Today programme back in the days of Jack De Manio in the late 50s and early to mid 60s. I have never felt that political parties should jump to the tune of the broadcasters. The fact that the latter wish to put on a particular programme imposes no obligation on parties to appear on them. I feel the same way re-General Election debates - the parties should please themselves.
    Avoiding the media makes sense when you are comfortable ahead and are nervous about things going wrong.

    Avoiding the media when you are hugely behind and really need something to change the narrative... That's another matter.
    The proposal seems to be only to put Government ministers up for interview when there's something to actually interview them about. Which doesn't in itself seem problematic.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Driver said:

    Benpointer said:

    nico679 said:

    Benpointer said:

    No photo ID required for a postal vote or a proxy vote.

    How is this secure?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003093/Postal-vote-application-form-English.pdf

    The Tories don’t care as the vast majority of postal votes are sent by over 65s.

    It’s extraordinary how little the media are making of the change in voting ID requirements .
    We do have local elections next May at which the fiasco will become clear, I suppose.
    I'm sure there will be Labour activists performatively "being denied their right to vote", anyway.
    I think most people will go "yea right. Why is it so hard to show ID idiot?"
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,470
    Off topic, except for its connection to vote fraud, real and imagined:

    I just learned this about Kari Lake, the defeated Repubican candidate for governor of Arizona: "Lake has been married to Jeff Halperin since August 1998.[17] She was previously married to Tracy Finnegan, an electrical engineer.[93] Prior to 2015 she identified as a Buddhist,[94] but converted to Christianity in 2019."
    There's no mention of any children, which is surprising for a woman claiming to be "pro-life".

    And she has been a Democrat and an independent, as well as a Republican.
    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari_Lake

    As far as I know, she's never held an elected office, or an executive position of any kind.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,629
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    Leon said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
    OH dear no. The next election is horribly lost for the Tories. And probably the one after that

    Better get used to it
    Well, your lot (the populist Brexit fantasists) have certainly done their best to achieve that, but as the man said, a week is a long time in politics.
    No, this is 1992-1997 with bells on. The difference is it is even worse than that, for the Tories. This is Black Wednesday on testosterone supplements. The Tories have super-Ratnered the brand. A nightmare approaches
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,426
    edited November 2022
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
    Anything Can Happen at Backgammon, but I don't consider that there's much in yesterday's Autumn Statement that would induce people to vote Conservative.

    I think that pushing through spending cuts, and tax rises, in current conditions, makes no fiscal sense. The UK's budget deficit, and debt to GDP ratios, are not out of line with those of other rich nations.

    Inflation has been caused by external shocks, and it will fall when those external shocks have been resolved.

    Although the situation is nowhere near as dire, it reminds me of the National Government pushing through spending cuts in 1931, but back then, these could be blamed on the previous Labour government.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,079
    Benpointer said:

    Carnyx said:

    Benpointer said:

    No photo ID required for a postal vote or a proxy vote.

    How is this secure?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003093/Postal-vote-application-form-English.pdf

    Same address as the registered address - so postie delivers. Postie doesn't look at the recipient's face.

    Of course anyone could be opening it and filling in the form on the other side of the door, so photos wouldn't help?
    Er... you missed section 3 on the form:

    Address for ballot paper (only required if different to the address where you are registered to vote)
    Please send my ballot paper to (address):

    The reason I would like my ballot paper sent to this address, rather than my registered address is:
    Oh? That's insane.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    Driver said:

    Benpointer said:

    nico679 said:

    Benpointer said:

    No photo ID required for a postal vote or a proxy vote.

    How is this secure?

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1003093/Postal-vote-application-form-English.pdf

    The Tories don’t care as the vast majority of postal votes are sent by over 65s.

    It’s extraordinary how little the media are making of the change in voting ID requirements .
    We do have local elections next May at which the fiasco will become clear, I suppose.
    I'm sure there will be Labour activists performatively "being denied their right to vote", anyway.
    To make a point, maybe they should. There are plenty of vulnerable people who will genuinely struggle to find appropriate ID and therefore be disenfranchised.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,394
    edited November 2022
    Benpointer said:

    MoonRabbit said:

    Polls good for the Tory’s today - Mori is a Labour friendly pollster, so no great shakes for Labour from that one - pre budget but still useful as the next one will have all the post budget built in for comparison, Omnisis always report Tory share too low, and 28 from Delta in post budget poll is a solid poll for Tory share.

    You're being ironic, right?
    No. Once you study polls Ben you get to know which firms are pro this or that in their methodology. If the next three polls were two 29s from Kantor and Opinium and a 27 from Techne I wouldn’t hesitate calling it disaster for Sunak.

    Edit. I’ve been out shopping all day and blimps have appeared. But I’m not going to ask what I’ve missed or anything.

    Though a blimp thread could only really happen in period of inflation.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    Driver said:

    The proposal seems to be only to put Government ministers up for interview when there's something to actually interview them about. Which doesn't in itself seem problematic.

    The same people who built a custom broadcast studio so they could talk to the public over the heads of the press are now afraid to even talk to the press...

    That seems a little problematic to me
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,271
    kle4 said:

    Benpointer said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    I don't find it amusing; I find it deeply disturbing.

    Is this not open to challenge in the courts? Age discrimination, if nothing else.
    Where young people still have alternatives it doesn't seem likely, if the government can show (whether people agree or not) that there was a reason to justify why one form is more appropriate as formal ID for voting purposes than another. A court couldn't just substitute its own judgement on that, and on a process level it would be defensible.

    Though the whole thing shows why the whole affair is not worth the marginal gains, since it stirs up aggravation and mistrust in the voting system, and is definitely more confusing.
    About 9% of the electorate don't have an applicable form of ID according to the government's analysis. Very few I think would go to the hassle of obtaining ID purely to vote. Maybe most wouldn't have voted anyway, but that's not the point.

    Not marginal and certainly not a gain

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/984918/Photographic_ID_research-_headline_findings_report.pdf
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Leon said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    Leon said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
    OH dear no. The next election is horribly lost for the Tories. And probably the one after that

    Better get used to it
    Well, your lot (the populist Brexit fantasists) have certainly done their best to achieve that, but as the man said, a week is a long time in politics.
    No, this is 1992-1997 with bells on. The difference is it is even worse than that, for the Tories. This is Black Wednesday on testosterone supplements. The Tories have super-Ratnered the brand. A nightmare approaches
    I think you could be right, and the grown-ups may not be able to fix the trashing of the brand by the Johnsonites. It will be Labour's election to lose, but anything is possible.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,079
    Benpointer said:

    Carnyx said:

    Benpointer said:

    Carnyx said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Benpointer said:

    MightyAlex said:

    Driver said:

    MightyAlex said:

    These are the proposed IDs;

    Passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
    Photographic driver’s licence issued by the UK, Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or an EEA state (including provisional)
    European Economic Area (EEA) photographic ID Card
    UK Biometric Residence Permit
    An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (PASS card)*
    A Blue Badge
    Oyster 60+ Card
    A concessionary travel pass funded by HM Government or local authority**

    https://www.gravesham.gov.uk/elections-voting/voter-id-requirements

    more detailed:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card/protecting-the-integrity-of-our-elections-voter-identification-at-polling-stations-and-the-new-voter-card#annex-a-list-of-identity-documents-that-will-be-accepted

    It does amuse me that 60+ bus passes, freedom cards etc are acceptable but a young persons railcard is not.

    This was gone into in depth in the last thread. 60+ bus passes require a photo ID to be issued.
    So do railcards.
    No photo on my disabled persons railcard.
    Ah, do you know why? And Is there even one on the Blue Badges?

    Hassle. Especially (as I know from helping a relative) that the application system involves official authentication the first time round. So no need to repeat. And because most - though not all - disabilities are pretty obvious up front. So why waste everyone's time on further ID if the chap in front of you has a wheelchair and a paid for ticket?

    https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/

    Edit: even *making* people go and get a passport photo can be pretty iffy for some folk. Ergo discriminatory if it is unnecessary.
    But you do have to provide a photo for a Blue Badge. (Though no one checks it's really a photo of you of course, so it's f*ck all use in confirming someone's ID tbh)
    I can only imagine it's because it's not paid for or screened in even the rudimentary way that a train ticket inspector would give someone the quick once-over on the train when punching the ticket.
    Which?

    The disabled person's rail card costs £20 per year or £54 for 3 years.

    The blue badge costs £10 (for two years) and has considerable potential value of course.
    Didn't know the BB was paid for! But there's nobody at most supermarkets to screen the BB parking, is there? Not uch point if there is no photo, though ... so there we are.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    Leon said:

    This is Black Wednesday on testosterone supplements. The Tories have super-Ratnered the brand. A nightmare approaches

    The important question is whether they can successfully tie it to Truss alone, or whether the reality of Brexit intervenes.

    QT last night, not a good omen for them...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,630
    MoonRabbit said:

    Benpointer said:

    MoonRabbit said:

    Polls good for the Tory’s today - Mori is a Labour friendly pollster, so no great shakes for Labour from that one - pre budget but still useful as the next one will have all the post budget built in for comparison, Omnisis always report Tory share too low, and 28 from Delta in post budget poll is a solid poll for Tory share.

    You're being ironic, right?
    No. Once you study polls Ben you get to know which firms are pro this or that in their methodology. If the next three polls were two 29s from Kantor and Opinium and a 27 from Techne I wouldn’t hesitate calling it disaster for Sunak.
    Haha. Leads over 20% a disaaaaster darling! You are the Craig Revel Horwood of polling analysis.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,202
    Jim_Miller said:

    Off topic, except for its connection to vote fraud, real and imagined:

    I just learned this about Kari Lake, the defeated Repubican candidate for governor of Arizona: "Lake has been married to Jeff Halperin since August 1998.[17] She was previously married to Tracy Finnegan, an electrical engineer.[93] Prior to 2015 she identified as a Buddhist,[94] but converted to Christianity in 2019."
    There's no mention of any children, which is surprising for a woman claiming to be "pro-life".

    And she has been a Democrat and an independent, as well as a Republican.
    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari_Lake

    As far as I know, she's never held an elected office, or an executive position of any kind.

    She - like many others - has been effectively radicalized by QAnon.

    It's deeply depressing that people are prepared to believe batshit things.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,629
    Sean_F said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🔴The Chancellor rejected the prospect of rejoining the single market but backed work in the coming years to strengthen Britain’s relationship with Brussels https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/jeremy-hunt-pledges-removal-vast-majority-trade-barriers-eu/

    A strong relationship with the EU without greaking out that it meant Brexit was being undermined would show considerable growth in our public policy and discourse.
    The grown-ups are back in charge. The next election is not lost for the Tories. Perhaps.
    Anything Can Happen at Backgammon, but I don't consider that there's much in yesterday's Autumn Statement that would induce people to vote Conservative.

    I think that pushing through spending cuts, and tax rises, in current conditions, makes no fiscal sense. The UK's budget deficit, and debt to GDP ratios, are not out of line with those of other rich nations.

    Inflation has been caused by external shocks, and it will fall when those external shocks have been resolved.

    Although the situation is nowhere near as dire, it reminds me of the National Government pushing through spending cuts in 1931, but back then, these could be blamed on the previous Labour government.
    Presumably they felt they had to be this severe, to calm the markets, and regain confidence

    And yet, the politics are absolutely dire

    There is no way back for the Tories, they are doomed to defeat, barring some black swan
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    Jeremy Hunt is facing a rebellion on the right of the Conservative party over his autumn statement - by @rowenamason
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/18/jeremy-hunt-faces-rebellion-on-tory-right-over-autumn-statement
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    rcs1000 said:

    Jim_Miller said:

    Off topic, except for its connection to vote fraud, real and imagined:

    I just learned this about Kari Lake, the defeated Repubican candidate for governor of Arizona: "Lake has been married to Jeff Halperin since August 1998.[17] She was previously married to Tracy Finnegan, an electrical engineer.[93] Prior to 2015 she identified as a Buddhist,[94] but converted to Christianity in 2019."
    There's no mention of any children, which is surprising for a woman claiming to be "pro-life".

    And she has been a Democrat and an independent, as well as a Republican.
    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari_Lake

    As far as I know, she's never held an elected office, or an executive position of any kind.

    She - like many others - has been effectively radicalized by QAnon.

    It's deeply depressing that people are prepared to believe batshit things.
    Some people like to believe in nonsense. There are a fair few in this country too.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Scott_xP said:

    Jeremy Hunt is facing a rebellion on the right of the Conservative party over his autumn statement - by @rowenamason
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/18/jeremy-hunt-faces-rebellion-on-tory-right-over-autumn-statement

    Needs to tell them to fuck right off
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,736
    NEW:

    Exclusive interview with Leader of the Opposition Keir Starmer and Shadow Chancellor coming up on #BBCNewsSix

    He told me he “doesn’t quarrel” with the OBR calculation of a £55bn fiscal gap, and he would “repair the damage” as he claims “we are the party of sound money”     https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1593663839031070720/photo/1
  • barrykennabarrykenna Posts: 206
    I believe we have some medical expertise on here , and would be grateful for an informed view.
    I have a good friend who has suffered from depression and anxiety over many years. For the latter he has relied on low doses of Diazepam of which he takes fewer than 50 tablets a year. As a layman that strikes me as using that medication fairly sparingly . However, his GP apparently has concerns re-addiction and has informed him he will only prescribe 20 every six months. This has added to his sense of anxiety - and I am concerned that he is now consulting websites with a view to ordering Barbiturates in the event of the GP denying him the Diazepam - Valium - when needed. There was a time back in the 1960s and 1970s when GPs quite regularly prescribed Barbiturates to patients , but they have long been banned on account of the risks of addiction and overdose.Effectively they are now illicit - but can be acquired at the cost of several hundred pounds on the Internet. I have strongly advised my friend Not to go down this road - and to be fair it seems clear he would only do so as a last resort. I am inclined to question the GP's judgement here - in that the risk of a mild addiction to Diazepam is a minor matter when compared to becoming reliant on Barbiturates. Any sensible comments would be appreciated
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW:

    Exclusive interview with Leader of the Opposition Keir Starmer and Shadow Chancellor coming up on #BBCNewsSix

    He told me he “doesn’t quarrel” with the OBR calculation of a £55bn fiscal gap, and he would “repair the damage” as he claims “we are the party of sound money”     https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1593663839031070720/photo/1

    “we are the party of sound money” lol. Yea right.
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