politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As Dave’s big speech begins – Rumour has it the third defec

rcs1000 said:

The UKIP 2010 manifesto promises a return to Imperial measurements. Please somebody tell me that's not going to be in 2015 too.

So Cameron has read UKIP's 2010 manifesto (the one not even Farage read) and decided to make it government policy.

Socrates said:

rcs1000 said:

Is it true that Cameron has said we'll be returning to imperial units of measurement? If so, he's lost my vote.

I heard that second-hand. It seems to be a stupid idea, but I don't know what was actually said.

oh c'mon it was in answer to an obtuse question put by Evan Davis on Newsnight about whether Cameron thinks in terms of imperial measures or metric ones. As if he is going to change it

Socrates said:

rcs1000 said:

Is it true that Cameron has said we'll be returning to imperial units of measurement? If so, he's lost my vote.

I heard that second-hand. It seems to be a stupid idea, but I don't know what was actually said.

Hardly a policy platform.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/30/david-cameron-schools-should-teach-mainly-in-imperial-measurements

A loose comment compared to what would require a huge amount of EU reform not to mention industry support to achieve.

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

OK. I've calmed down now.

No wonder Dominic Grieve went. He does not support withdrawing from ECHR and replacing with a British bill of rights. As I believe this means leaving the EU or them accepting such a change, it is now more likely than not that the Tories would back leaving the EU.

So people who vote Tory in 2015 should be aware of the direction that Cameron is taking them in.

Scott_P said:

@janemerrick23: How is Nick Clegg going to top that? Scrapping all taxes? A GP to pop round if you have a sniffle? An owl for every hardworking parent?

Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

I think it nice to be familiar with both. Obviously, being interested in WW2 battleships and bombers from an early age helps.

Therefore, without the need of a calculator, I know that 16 inches is 406 millimetres, and a 500 lb bomb weighs 227 kilograms

rcs1000 said:

___Bobajob___ said:

Robert
We already use imperial. Last time I looked all road signs were in imperial and people give their heights in feet and inches.

Yes, but science and engineering is entirely taught in centigrade, meters, litres, etc.

And there's a very good reason for that.

Metres, this side of the Pond

I like imperial measures. They're pleasingly bonkers.

"I admire UKIP's protest-group stance and Farage's everyman popularity but when it comes to a GE, he has no chance whatsoever, and every vote which goes to UKIP increases the chances of a Labour government."

This really winds me up. I live in Wantage constituency. Labour cannot win Wantage. Therefore if I choose to vote UKIP it will not impact Labour's chances of winning one little bit.

Ditto if I was to live in a safe Lab seat like Bootle or a Lib-Lab marginal like Oxford East or an SNP-Lab fight like Dundee West. In fact out of 600 odd seats, there are only about 100 odd where this might be the case.

Don't forget as well that in some seats like Rotherham a switch from Con to UKIP might actually help Cameron.

Sparrow: -

"Cameron’s speech - Snap Verdict: In the battle of the party conference speeches, for the first time in at least three years, David Cameron has won by a mile. While Ed Miliband’s speech was something even loyalists struggled to get enthusiastic about, this will achieve exactly what Cameron wants. At the Guardian we’ll be worrying about the distributive impact of his proposed tax cuts, and where the money will come from, but for the audience that Cameron is worried about - Tory activists, readers of tabloid papers and people who watch the TV news - it hit all the right buttons."

hucks67 said:

No wonder Dominic Grieve went. He does not support withdrawing from ECHR and replacing with a British bill of rights. As I believe this means leaving the EU or them accepting such a change, it is now more likely than not that the Tories would back leaving the EU.

So people who vote Tory in 2015 should be aware of the direction that Cameron is taking them in.

Maybe Cameron sticking up for people like this and I hope camerons going in that direction.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1348237/Asylum-seeker-killed-Amy-Houston-12-hit-run-deported.html

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

I think the imperial units were based on the number 12 because it is easier to divide, or something like that, I remember Indians are good in mathematics since ancient times because they used a metric system based on 12.
However it is hopelessly complicated compared with the decimal system because we have 10 fingers not 12, ohh history of maths.

rcs1000 said:

___Bobajob___ said:

Robert
We already use imperial. Last time I looked all road signs were in imperial and people give their heights in feet and inches.

Yes, but science and engineering is entirely taught in centigrade, meters, litres, etc.

And there's a very good reason for that.

Celsius. And proper scientists use Kelvin.

Richard_Nabavi said:

rcs1000 said:

The UKIP 2010 manifesto promises a return to Imperial measurements. Please somebody tell me that's not going to be in 2015 too.

I think that a good working assumption is that anything which was in the 2010 UKIP manifesto definitely won't be in the 2015 manifesto.

Oh don't say that! The jokes & deliberate misunderstandings that derive from it on here are soooo sharp and funny!

One important point is that it would extend (probably) the Employee National insurance level higher, which would probably counteract the effect to a certain level.

@DPJHodges: Last year Ed M's supporters were telling us his conference speech had transformed politics. Now it's "conference speeches don't matter".

___Bobajob___ said:

Also I don't recall ordering half a litre of beer in the pub

Maybe not, there are a few measures that are still in 'imperial' and I suspect that was for political reasons but all engineering is done in metric.
Now was it 14 oz in a lb or 16? Then how many lbs in a stone? As for furlongs, I suppose they are still in use too.

Bring back Groats, vote Tory.

dyedwoolie said:

Oliver_PB said:

Wait a second, is Cameron's big policy announcement was a tax cut totalling £810 for those earning over £50k/yr (the top ~15% of earners)? Wow.

As well as being classic conservative it invites lefties to be outraged at supporting 'the rich' and then crying into their milk when the squeezed middle desert them for a party that is proposing supportive policies, not calling them 'rich'

I agree that it's a classic Conservative policy: it helps the rich at the expense of the poor.

It 'supports' the top 15% of earners. One of the biggest problems in society is that the wealthy don't seem to believe they're wealthy and have a persecution complex. There are middle-earners that are struggling - but it's not those earning £50k/yr.

The Conservatives are pretty fundamentally out of touch.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Speedy said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

I think the imperial units were based on the number 12 because it is easier to divide, or something like that, I remember Indians are good in mathematics since ancient times because they used a metric system based on 12.

I think it was actually 10!

It a good thing Indians invented zero, or else we would be in a problem, a maths problem.
I remember mathematicians wasted centuries to prove that 1=1.

When I studied chemical engineering many moons ago ,it was lesson 1 in year 1 that we did conversions. Still remember being proud of the fact that not only did we use lbs and not kgs as the French did but we used British Lbs and not American Lbs just to complicate life a bit more

logical_song said:

___Bobajob___ said:

Also I don't recall ordering half a litre of beer in the pub

Maybe not, there are a few measures that are still in 'imperial' and I suspect that was for political reasons but all engineering is done in metric.
Now was it 14 oz in a lb or 16? Then how many lbs in a stone? As for furlongs, I suppose they are still in use too.

Bring back Groats, vote Tory.

Even if different measures are used for different things, so what? We are all told how good for the mind it is to be bilingual, the same principle applies with metric/imperial doesn't it?

Beeb blog:-

"Conservative chief whip Michael Gove tells BBC Daily Politics that David Cameron's pledge to raise the 40p income rate tax threshold will cost "just under £2bn". He confirms that the announced tax cuts would not take place until the books are balanced, by 2020. "

Mr. Woolie, I shall never price an ebook beyond half a crown (a guinea for limited edition hardbacks).

I used to collect coins. The old system was rather more to my liking.

state_go_away said:

When I studied chemical engineering many moons ago ,it was lesson 1 in year 1 that we did conversions. Still remember being proud of the fact that not only did we use lbs and not kgs as the French did but we used British Lbs and not American Lbs just to complicate life a bit more

I still have to teach that.

Thermodynamics lesson 1 - scientific notation, estimation and be aware that people measure things in different units - especially pressure and temperature. Which, errr, we use a fair bit as chemists and chemical engineers.

But that Guardian article is actually disgraceful journalism. Awful stuff. Buzzfeed level.

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

Rubbish. There are dozens of engineers in my office fully competent in using both. We still use feet, knots in aviation, miles and yards on our highways, and pints and gallons to measure liquids. We weigh each other in stones and pounds, our height in feet and inches.

Who 'f*cks up' on any of that?

It makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, it improves mental arthimetic and numerical reasoning by building conversions into everyday life.

OK so it's good to have tricky units because it improves mental arithmetic.
Engineers may be competent in both sets of units, but it's an unnecessary complication. I'm with rcs1000 on this. I really thought that it was a wind up when I heard it, in fact are we ABSOLUTELY sure that it isn't?

Socrates said:

Speedy said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

I think the imperial units were based on the number 12 because it is easier to divide, or something like that, I remember Indians are good in mathematics since ancient times because they used a metric system based on 12.
However it is hopelessly complicated compared with the decimal system because we have 10 fingers not 12, ohh history of maths.

The obvious compromise is to convert to a duodecimal number system.

Good thing that computers use the binary system (duodecimal is 12 by the way).

So on Monday Osborne's message was about the deficit , today Cameron was promising money to everyone left right and centre as if the deficit was of no importance .
What is the Conservative priority ?

Richard_Tyndall said:

rcs1000 said:

Speedy said:

rcs1000 said:

Is it true that Cameron has said we'll be returning to imperial units of measurement? If so, he's lost my vote.

If it's UKIP policy he'll do it, however i'm not sure it is UKIP policy.

It would be equivalent to saying: we want to make life especially hard for Brits who want to become scientists or engineers.

But I guess it wouldn't affect those who want to get degrees in Media Studies.

I wonder how all those US scientists and engineers manage in a country that still uses Imperial measurements? Could it possibly be that being forced to do calculations in something other than multiples of 10 actually helps people do mental arithmetic and be more flexible in their thinking?

I do wonder how the most successful engineering and science based industry on earth survives since it is almost entirely run in Imperial units.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_born_scientists_and_engineers_in_the_United_States) they largely manage it through importing scientists and engineers... and probaby from countries where they teach in metric.

Come on Richard: are you seriously telling me you support reintroducing Imperial into the classroom?

rcs1000 said:

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

Rubbish. There are dozens of engineers in my office fully competent in using both. We still use feet, knots in aviation, miles and yards on our highways, and pints and gallons to measure liquids. We weigh each other in stones and pounds, our height in feet and inches.

Who 'f*cks up' on any of that?

It makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, it improves mental arthimetic and numerical reasoning by building conversions into everyday life.

The Hubble Space telescope was fucked up because one team was working in metric, and another in imperial: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/686674.stm

The 'Gimli Glider' nearly ended up killing hundreds scores because of mix up between kg and lb.

logical_song said:

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

Rubbish. There are dozens of engineers in my office fully competent in using both. We still use feet, knots in aviation, miles and yards on our highways, and pints and gallons to measure liquids. We weigh each other in stones and pounds, our height in feet and inches.

Who 'f*cks up' on any of that?

It makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, it improves mental arthimetic and numerical reasoning by building conversions into everyday life.

OK so it's good to have tricky units because it improves mental arithmetic.
Engineers may be competent in both sets of units, but it's an unnecessary complication. I'm with rcs1000 on this. I really thought that it was a wind up when I heard it, in fact are we ABSOLUTELY sure that it isn't?

Let's change to having 97pence in a pound. It'll improve everyone's mental arithmetic.

rcs1000 said:

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

Rubbish. There are dozens of engineers in my office fully competent in using both. We still use feet, knots in aviation, miles and yards on our highways, and pints and gallons to measure liquids. We weigh each other in stones and pounds, our height in feet and inches.

Who 'f*cks up' on any of that?

It makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, it improves mental arthimetic and numerical reasoning by building conversions into everyday life.

The Hubble Space telescope was fucked up because one team was working in metric, and another in imperial: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/686674.stm

Believe me, f*ck ups due to calculation errors happen all the time. Within the metric system. People miss decimal points, fail to communicate the size of the structure required with the adjacent team, fail to use the latest design standards, or don't understand what's 'buildable' out on site.

If the Hubble space telescope screwed up because of something as simple as base dimensions, the project had much bigger and fundamental management issues than that.

MarkSenior said:

So on Monday Osborne's message was about the deficit , today Cameron was promising money to everyone left right and centre as if the deficit was of no importance .
What is the Conservative priority ?

UKIP.

And it won't work.

Peter_the_Punter said:

Racehorses are still bought and sold in guineas.

No, I don't know why either.

They run races in furlongs as well!! and measure height in hands!!

Anorak said:

rcs1000 said:

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

Rubbish. There are dozens of engineers in my office fully competent in using both. We still use feet, knots in aviation, miles and yards on our highways, and pints and gallons to measure liquids. We weigh each other in stones and pounds, our height in feet and inches.

Who 'f*cks up' on any of that?

It makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, it improves mental arthimetic and numerical reasoning by building conversions into everyday life.

The Hubble Space telescope was fucked up because one team was working in metric, and another in imperial: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/686674.stm

The 'Gimli Glider' nearly ended up killing hundreds because of mix up between kg and lb.

That's a great story: I recommend everyone google it

rcs1000 said:

Anorak said:

rcs1000 said:

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

Rubbish. There are dozens of engineers in my office fully competent in using both. We still use feet, knots in aviation, miles and yards on our highways, and pints and gallons to measure liquids. We weigh each other in stones and pounds, our height in feet and inches.

Who 'f*cks up' on any of that?

It makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, it improves mental arthimetic and numerical reasoning by building conversions into everyday life.

The Hubble Space telescope was fucked up because one team was working in metric, and another in imperial: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/686674.stm

The 'Gimli Glider' nearly ended up killing hundreds because of mix up between kg and lb.

That's a great story: I recommend everyone google it

Great story, utterly appaling TV movie!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_from_the_Sky:_Flight_174

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

Rubbish. There are dozens of engineers in my office fully competent in using both. We still use feet, knots in aviation, miles and yards on our highways, and pints and gallons to measure liquids. We weigh each other in stones and pounds, our height in feet and inches.

Who 'f*cks up' on any of that?

It makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, it improves mental arthimetic and numerical reasoning by building conversions into everyday life.

Well said - there is room for both Metric and Imperial in school education today. We currently use both measurements in the UK, so teaching it seems like just plain common sense to me.

FFS, numbers are just numbers. Spend valuable classroom time teaching Hex rather than imperial if you want to actually educate the kids.

Have the Tories really said that they will reinstate Imperial units in schools?

rcs1000 said:

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

Rubbish. There are dozens of engineers in my office fully competent in using both. We still use feet, knots in aviation, miles and yards on our highways, and pints and gallons to measure liquids. We weigh each other in stones and pounds, our height in feet and inches.

Who 'f*cks up' on any of that?

It makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, it improves mental arthimetic and numerical reasoning by building conversions into everyday life.

The Hubble Space telescope was fucked up because one team was working in metric, and another in imperial: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/686674.stm

I'm not sure that was the case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope#Origin_of_the_problem

And especially section 7.1 of
http://www.company7.com/c7news/19910003124_1991003124.pdf

And like many such cases, the problem was not caught due to lack of suitable testing post-manufacture.

As an aside, I've seen a fair few errors caused by people mistaking Mb (Megabit) and MB (MegaByte). Sometimes because people misread documentation; most frequently because people document incorrectly.

BiIinguaIism is a benefit.

@OliverPB "The Tories are fundamentally out of touch"

Would you prefer that they spend fortunes on people on benefits who are able to work or change the system (as they are doing) so that it becomes financially attractive to those on benefits to get a job.

I get the 'moral' case for what IDS and the Tories are doing. Perhaps it's because I have two young children and I've worked my whole life. The way the system was working in 2009 we were heading a) towards bankruptcy abd b) a hellish future for our children.

Someone had to grab the nettle and the Tories have done so. It hasn't been popular, it has hurt and it will carry on hurting for a few years. But, if we stay on the current path and accept the short-term pain, the future for my 5-year-old and 1-year-old will be far brighter than it looked back in 2009 for anyone with young children.

That to me is a moral cause.

I've said before that throughout the noughties my living standards shot up hugely, mainly because I was lucky enough to own a home which nearly trebled in value. It was all built on sand, yet I lived like a king for a few years (all this was under a Labour government) whilst Gordon Brown preached to me about prudence and no more boom and bust. Then of course, it all caved in, and I've since had five years of flatlining living standards. I accept that. I also accept that I have no God given right to living standards continually rising. And I also believe it is morally wrong to expect my living standards to rise by borrowing money from the future; money which should go to my kids.

Of course, we still are borrowing a lot, and the economy is proving phenomenally difficult to turn around, mainly because there are lots and lots of people like you who don't believe in making radical changes to the way the system works and therefore dig in against it. The Tories should stick to their guns, and when tax cuts to working people, letting people spend their own money rather than giving it to the government to spend it for them, proves to work, as it will, and the economy gets growing again, then hopefully people like you will be persuaded.

By the way, I'm as working class as you get. But not wracked by prejudice.

Were you watching, Ed Miliband? That is how to deliver a speech.

Speedy said:

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Casino_Royale said:

rcs1000 said:

Imperial units are stupid. They make leaning science harder, and they lead to engineering fuck ups.

To want to return to them because you see metric as some kind of European plot is so spectacularly absurd as to defy belief. If both UKIP and the Conservative Parties were to have this as their official policy it would be extraordinary.

Can somebody please start the Pro-Metric Conservative Party?

Rubbish. There are dozens of engineers in my office fully competent in using both. We still use feet, knots in aviation, miles and yards on our highways, and pints and gallons to measure liquids. We weigh each other in stones and pounds, our height in feet and inches.

Who 'f*cks up' on any of that?

It makes no difference whatsoever. In fact, it improves mental arthimetic and numerical reasoning by building conversions into everyday life.

The Hubble Space telescope was fucked up because one team was working in metric, and another in imperial: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/686674.stm

Believe me, f*ck ups due to calculation errors happen all the time. Within the metric system. People miss decimal points, fail to communicate the size of the structure required with the adjacent team, fail to use the latest design standards, or don't understand what's 'buildable' out on site.

If the Hubble space telescope screwed up because of something as simple as base dimensions, the project had much bigger and fundamental management issues than that.

A few Mars spacecraft have been lost that way too, the latest one was the British Beagle 2, in 2003, it cost a ton of money and it was lost due to imperial measurements.

However it could be worse, Cameron could have announced the return to the Babylonian system (based on 60).

I think you're wrong about Beagle 2. AFAICR they never got to the bottom of the cause of its loss, and I don't think imperial units came into any of the possible causes. Could be wrong, though.