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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As Dave’s big speech begins – Rumour has it the third defec

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  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited October 2014

    Why does Cam resent hard-working people? Eh?

    Are you suggesting that people on higher incomes don't work hard?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    BenM said:

    It isn't middle is it? That's more like £27K. Not saying it is or is not a bad policy but it does benefit only the top 10% to 15% of earners.

    The overarching theme (Osborne + Cameron) is letting people keep more of their own money, rather than taking it away from them and then giving some of it back with in-work benefits. Sound Conservative stuff.
    They're not the same people, though, are they? The losers have one set of characteristics and the winners another.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    A wonderfully snooty comment by Andrew Sparrow in his Guardian live blog:

    And lifting the 40p threshold significantly is something that will appeal enormously to what the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail call the middle class.

    Of course no Guardian journalist would regard a salary as low as £50K as being the 'middle'.

    Oh don't be silly. A quick google suggests that £50k is at the 90th percentile. It is way at the top end of the income distribution, and so he is gently mocking the Mail and the Telegraph for their pathetic attempt at pretending people on such incomes are in the "middle".

    Median income before tax in the UK is below £25k, while the median earnings for someone full-time employed is less than £30k. No-one paying the 40p rate of income tax can be thought of as in the "middle".
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Antifrank

    LOL. Indeed.

    You went for deficit reduction.

    The Tories went for a gigantic tax cut.

    Blind indeed.

    So you missed the bit about balancing the books by 2018?

    Yes, yes, I expect you did.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Iain Martin: Lab should be worried watching this. Mili E wandering around parks accosting voters speech looks worse by the minute.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2014
    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2014
    Neil said:

    BenM said:

    It isn't middle is it? That's more like £27K. Not saying it is or is not a bad policy but it does benefit only the top 10% to 15% of earners.

    The overarching theme (Osborne + Cameron) is letting people keep more of their own money, rather than taking it away from them and then giving some of it back with in-work benefits. Sound Conservative stuff.
    They're not the same people, though, are they? The losers have one set of characteristics and the winners another.
    To an extent that is true, but the increase in personal allowances helps the low-paid, so needs to be offset against the reduction (in real terms, though not nominal terms) in in-work benefits. Together with the IDS changes, it's all part of a gentle rebalancing to reduce the perverse incentives which had built up in the welfare/tax system.
  • Watcher

    No. I am merely wondering why he said that???
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited October 2014

    A wonderfully snooty comment by Andrew Sparrow in his Guardian live blog:

    And lifting the 40p threshold significantly is something that will appeal enormously to what the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail call the middle class.

    Of course no Guardian journalist would regard a salary as low as £50K as being the 'middle'.

    Oh don't be silly. A quick google suggests that £50k is at the 90th percentile. It is way at the top end of the income distribution, and so he is gently mocking the Mail and the Telegraph for their pathetic attempt at pretending people on such incomes are in the "middle".

    Median income before tax in the UK is below £25k, while the median earnings for someone full-time employed is less than £30k. No-one paying the 40p rate of income tax can be thought of as in the "middle".
    The tax cut starts at £40k, however. And there will be a lot of people earning less than that in households with a partner/parent earning more.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054
    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Watcher

    No. I am merely wondering why he said that???

    Misspoke 'represent'.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    BenM said:

    It isn't middle is it? That's more like £27K. Not saying it is or is not a bad policy but it does benefit only the top 10% to 15% of earners.

    The overarching theme (Osborne + Cameron) is letting people keep more of their own money, rather than taking it away from them and then giving some of it back with in-work benefits. Sound Conservative stuff.
    Which only ever happens when their feet get held to the fire by UKIP, and usually turns out to be a mirage.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Lord Ashcroft ✔ @LordAshcroft
    Follow

    Cameron doing well today...touching all the issues....and attempting to set the battle lines...Miliband will have to respond....
  • They've turned the reverb on for this end bit.
  • Oooh, Next May you could go to bed with Nigel Farage and wake up with Ed Miliband.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779
    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Don't vote for Nigel Miliband or Ed Farage.
  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    I'm not sure announcing defections during the Conservative conference is a wise decision by UKIP. Reminds me of Ashcroft's polling about the Lib Dems "decapitation" strategy in 2001, which failed and the public disliked. It also helps cement an association between the Conservatives and UKIP, which might put off some left-leaning voters.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
  • Cameron now proposing extending stamp duty to switching political parties . £50,000 in all years apart from one year before election in which case £100,000
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    It wouldn't be a simple merging. It would be a merging plus a tax cut. You could do something like 15%, 30%, 45% and set the thresholds appropriately.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054
    Aaaarrrghh! We are not paying down the debt Dave! Someone needs to reach him the difference between debt and deficit.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Oooh, Next May you could go to bed with Nigel Farage and wake up with Ed Miliband.

    The punchline to that was quite good

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Oops! Another 'paying down its debts'......
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Are you calling for people over State Pension Age to pay NI on earned income or all unearned income to attract NI or both?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

    So people have been saying ever since we were on 3%.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. PB, I concur. It looks like childish political stunts at this stage. Giggle giggle, tee-hee, etc. It's not about principle but dicking about.

    Strong Cameron speech, notwithstanding the slip of the tongue or the emotional bit (I know others liked that, but I didn't). Will be fascinating to see whether rightish Kippers decide to change their mind, or stick with Farage.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Tell working pensioners that...
  • euan mccolm ‏@euanmccolm

    labour mps must be sobbing.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2014
    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

    Never, ever, ever?

    I think you are wrong there

    But votes for UKIP are already forcing the Tories to copy their policies

    The two income tax thresholds announced today are very similar to kipper policies

    There wouldn't be a referendum promise if people weren't voting UKIP.

    Do you really think Cameron would be doing things like this and scrapping Human Rights if people weren't voting UKIP?


  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    That ended rather suddenly...
  • Anyone else having this dodgy image of the world's worst spitroast involving Nigel and Ed?

    Or is it just me.
  • Antifrank

    Remind me of how Ozzy is doing on the existing target?

    Do you really feel the need to spin for the government?
  • Cam doesn't know the difference between debt and deficit
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited October 2014
    Neil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Are you calling for people over State Pension Age to pay NI on earned income or all unearned income to attract NI or both?
    It seems strange that unearned income does not attract NI but earned does. As a good leftie surely you think this is wrong?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Eagles, you're free to fantasise about whatever you like, but please keep it to yourself.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    isam said:

    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

    Never, ever, ever?

    I think you are wrong there
    Keep dreaming.

    The Farage Party's vision for Britain is too extreme.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    The speech was alright overall.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Tell working pensioners that...

    Tell people who are working and earning an income that they should pay the same tax on it as everyone else?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2014
    Neil said:

    Are you calling for people over State Pension Age to pay NI on earned income or all unearned income to attract NI or both?

    It is really odd that there's no NI on earned income for people of pensionable age. I don't know why Osborne hasn't changed this, it seems like a no-brainer to me. And whilst it might not raise very much, there is a long-term trend towards continuing to work after pension age, even if not necessarily full-time, so I expect it would be a gently increasing tax stream. It doesn't strike me as something even those affected would be particularly miffed by.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    To be fair to Cameron, he is good at this sort of speech. It shouldn't matter that Ed is poor at this, but it probably does.

    He definitely talks the talk, but his walking sometimes leaves a little to be desired.
  • Cam doesn't know the difference between debt and deficit

    Miliband does not seem to know what either are
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693
    *Ahem*. Not that I want to brag, but I did say last week (1) there'd be a giant rabbit and (2) it would probably include a raise in the 40p tax threshold, possible laddered over the lifetime of the next parliament. All I got wrong was that I thought it'd be Osborne announcing it, rather than Cameron.

    I thank you.
  • Anyone else having this dodgy image of the world's worst spitroast involving Nigel and Ed?

    Or is it just me.

    I'm a vegetarian - I don't do spitroasts :)
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Neil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Are you calling for people over State Pension Age to pay NI on earned income or all unearned income to attract NI or both?
    I want them to have the same allowances and tax rates as everyone else. Being exempt from NI was defensible when life expectancy after SPA was 5 years, but not now that it is more like 20.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Are you calling for people over State Pension Age to pay NI on earned income or all unearned income to attract NI or both?
    It seems strange that unearned income does not attract NI but earned does. As a good leftie surely you think this is wrong?
    As a good lefty I look forward to the battering the Tories would get in the polls if they ever really tried to fix it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Dany the Fink on DP:

    - Very good speech well delivered
    - These speeches make very little difference - people don't pay attention to them
    - Good framing of election 'Cameron vs Miliband' and the issues involved
  • Adam Boulton ‏@adamboultonSKY

    COMMENT Like it or not, DC hit the spot this year in a way that EM didn't. UKIP is a vote for Labour line loud and clear.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

    Never, ever, ever?

    I think you are wrong there
    Keep dreaming.

    The Farage Party's vision for Britain is too extreme.
    Labour+Tory in the 60s got 70% plus of the nations vote

    2010 it was 42%

    The trend is not your friend, things change, and they are a changing King Canute
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Socrates said:

    A wonderfully snooty comment by Andrew Sparrow in his Guardian live blog:

    And lifting the 40p threshold significantly is something that will appeal enormously to what the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail call the middle class.

    Of course no Guardian journalist would regard a salary as low as £50K as being the 'middle'.

    Oh don't be silly. A quick google suggests that £50k is at the 90th percentile. It is way at the top end of the income distribution, and so he is gently mocking the Mail and the Telegraph for their pathetic attempt at pretending people on such incomes are in the "middle".

    Median income before tax in the UK is below £25k, while the median earnings for someone full-time employed is less than £30k. No-one paying the 40p rate of income tax can be thought of as in the "middle".
    The tax cut starts at £40k, however. And there will be a lot of people earning less than that in households with a partner/parent earning more.
    Maybe, but unless you can point to some specific stats on that I think you are reaching beyond what is supported by the facts.

    And so Nabavi's criticism of the Guardian is merely evidence of his own deeply ingrained bias.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    isam said:

    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

    Never, ever, ever?

    I think you are wrong there

    But votes for UKIP are already forcing the Tories to copy their policies

    The two income tax thresholds announced today are kipper policies already.

    There wouldn't be a referendum promise if people weren't voting UKIP.

    Do you really think Cameron would be doing things like this and scrapping Human Rights if people weren't voting UKIP?


    I ain't.

    I admire UKIP's protest-group stance and Farage's everyman popularity but when it comes to a GE, he has no chance whatsoever, and every vote which goes to UKIP increases the chances of a Labour government. And I think a Labour government under Miliband would be incredibly Europhile. If that happens and the Tories go into opposition, they will likely become a party led by an anti-European and that will kill UKIP off anyway.

    I'm not saying this to wind you up. It's more or less a fact.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Tell working pensioners that...

    Tell people who are working and earning an income that they should pay the same tax on it as everyone else?
    I'm not saying its right..just that they would be fairly miffed to suddenly get a 11% pay cut...
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Are you calling for people over State Pension Age to pay NI on earned income or all unearned income to attract NI or both?
    I want them to have the same allowances and tax rates as everyone else. Being exempt from NI was defensible when life expectancy after SPA was 5 years, but not now that it is more like 20.
    That doesnt really answer the question clearly.
  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    Wait a second, is Cameron's big policy announcement was a tax cut totalling £810 for those earning over £50k/yr (the top ~15% of earners)? Wow.
  • Neil said:

    Neil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Are you calling for people over State Pension Age to pay NI on earned income or all unearned income to attract NI or both?
    It seems strange that unearned income does not attract NI but earned does. As a good leftie surely you think this is wrong?
    As a good lefty I look forward to the battering the Tories would get in the polls if they ever really tried to fix it.
    Nice to see another insincere lefty then about rewarding work and not privilage
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954

    A wonderfully snooty comment by Andrew Sparrow in his Guardian live blog:

    And lifting the 40p threshold significantly is something that will appeal enormously to what the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail call the middle class.

    Of course no Guardian journalist would regard a salary as low as £50K as being the 'middle'.

    Oh don't be silly. A quick google suggests that £50k is at the 90th percentile. It is way at the top end of the income distribution, and so he is gently mocking the Mail and the Telegraph for their pathetic attempt at pretending people on such incomes are in the "middle".

    Median income before tax in the UK is below £25k, while the median earnings for someone full-time employed is less than £30k. No-one paying the 40p rate of income tax can be thought of as in the "middle".
    I agree with your point, but papers like the Guardian went nuts about restrictions on benefits hitting the middle classes, when in fact they only hit the top quintile. What does or does not constitute the middle class seems to depend on the particularly axe being ground by the commentator not any accurate logical definition.
  • And so Nabavi's criticism of the Guardian is merely evidence of his own deeply ingrained bias.

    It was a joke!!

    OK, OK, the Guardian and jokes don't go together too well. I should have realised.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    Adam Boulton ‏@adamboultonSKY
    A vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour line loud and clear.

    If only DC had had an opportunity to introduce a different voting system and prevent this problem...
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Are you calling for people over State Pension Age to pay NI on earned income or all unearned income to attract NI or both?
    It seems strange that unearned income does not attract NI but earned does. As a good leftie surely you think this is wrong?
    As a good lefty I look forward to the battering the Tories would get in the polls if they ever really tried to fix it.
    Nice to see another insincere lefty then about rewarding work and not privilage
    Ouch, being called insincere on the internet, my day is going from bad to worse.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    isam said:

    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

    Never, ever, ever?

    I think you are wrong there
    Keep dreaming.

    The Farage Party's vision for Britain is too extreme.
    It is extreme compared only to today's rather oppressive and growingly intolerable left wing consensus. Compared to the ebb and flow of politics and society over decades it is modesty itself. We may look back in a few years and see today's rape-ignoring and twitter comment-arresting culture as being the extreme -with hindsight it is probably that which will appear grotesque and unjustifiable.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Interesting idea on the building homes and selling them for a discount - will be interesting to see the detail on that one. Addresses one of the main criticisms of the right-to-buy for council houses, that the houses sold were not replaced.

    Wonder how you will decide what the market price for those houses is, when the existence of a bunch of houses for first-time buyers with a 20% discount will suppress the market price at the bottom end of the market anyway. Potential for a bit of smoke and mirrors there.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Adam Boulton ‏@adamboultonSKY

    COMMENT Like it or not, DC hit the spot this year in a way that EM didn't. UKIP is a vote for Labour line loud and clear.

    According to the opinion polls, that line is not a vote winner, latest Ashcroft poll that tested it I rememeber had marginally more voters wanting to vote UKIP than not.
  • What would the 40% threshold be by now if it had been indexed since labour stopped indexing it?

    And what would it be in 2020 assuming starting from that number and adding 2-3% a year?

    My guess is around £50K if not higher

    so...meh...

    And subsidising house prices is a colossally stupid and harmful idea.

    Unless and until governments of all colours stop avoiding tackling pensioner benefits we will remain fecked and the deficit will remain high. And the Eurozone will be a millstone round our necks too whoever wins next year. Not a rosy future, sorry everyone.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

    So people have been saying ever since we were on 3%.
    Rocking horse shit.

    You'll put Labour in power, yes. But you won't get more than five MPs.

    You need 325.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @OblitusSumMe
    Interfering with the "free market"? Changed days indeed.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That made me spill my tea.

    A wonderfully snooty comment by Andrew Sparrow in his Guardian live blog:

    And lifting the 40p threshold significantly is something that will appeal enormously to what the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail call the middle class.

    Of course no Guardian journalist would regard a salary as low as £50K as being the 'middle'.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Jonathan Freedland: Purely as a matter of political tradecraft, that was an exceptionally good speech. Ed M's effort last week crushed
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited October 2014

    Interesting idea on the building homes and selling them for a discount - will be interesting to see the detail on that one. Addresses one of the main criticisms of the right-to-buy for council houses, that the houses sold were not replaced.

    Wonder how you will decide what the market price for those houses is, when the existence of a bunch of houses for first-time buyers with a 20% discount will suppress the market price at the bottom end of the market anyway. Potential for a bit of smoke and mirrors there.

    Don't like this policy ,its divisive, interfering and complicated. There is also no absolute rule to say owning homes is good.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    isam said:

    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

    Never, ever, ever?

    I think you are wrong there
    Keep dreaming.

    The Farage Party's vision for Britain is too extreme.
    There is nothing extreme about existing outside an international political union or 1990s levels of immigration.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    Fenster said:

    isam said:

    On free movement of people in the EU

    "I WILL GET WHAT BRITAIN NEEDS...."

    *pause*

    *no applause*

    No wonder UKIP are more trusted than all the rest put together on immigration, even the Tory conference don't believe him

    How will a vote for UKIP stop immigration?

    You are never, ever, ever, ever going to get into power.

    I don't like the EU much either. But I'm a realist, not a monomaniac.

    Never, ever, ever?

    I think you are wrong there

    But votes for UKIP are already forcing the Tories to copy their policies

    The two income tax thresholds announced today are kipper policies already.

    There wouldn't be a referendum promise if people weren't voting UKIP.

    Do you really think Cameron would be doing things like this and scrapping Human Rights if people weren't voting UKIP?


    I ain't.

    I admire UKIP's protest-group stance and Farage's everyman popularity but when it comes to a GE, he has no chance whatsoever, and every vote which goes to UKIP increases the chances of a Labour government. And I think a Labour government under Miliband would be incredibly Europhile. If that happens and the Tories go into opposition, they will likely become a party led by an anti-European and that will kill UKIP off anyway.

    I'm not saying this to wind you up. It's more or less a fact.
    I agree that Farage will probably never be PM and UKIP aren't going to win in 2015, and probably not 2020 either

    But never, ever, ever? I think you are wrong, I'll say it again

    Less people are voting Labour or Tory than ever before. That is a fact, hidden by ignoring the biggest majority of voters, the "don't vote" party

    I don't see how you can ignore that, and its burying your head in the sand to think it doesn't matter
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    MaxPB said:

    Socrates said:

    It's curious that he cut income tax rather than national insurance...

    As Andrew Neil said beforehand, people believe that NI pays for the NHS when it is just any other tax. There is not enough time to have that debate and educate voters that cutting NI doesn't mean cutting NHS funding.
    He could have just "merged" them, rather than cutting.
    And put the basic rate up to ~32%? Absolutely shocking idea. People don't really get the tax system.
    That would also be a massive tax increase for pensioners as well (which don't pay Employee NI)
    Pensioners being exempt from NI is no longer fair or sustainable.
    Are you calling for people over State Pension Age to pay NI on earned income or all unearned income to attract NI or both?
    It seems strange that unearned income does not attract NI but earned does. As a good leftie surely you think this is wrong?
    As a good lefty I look forward to the battering the Tories would get in the polls if they ever really tried to fix it.
    Nice to see another insincere lefty then about rewarding work and not privilage
    Ouch, being called insincere on the internet, my day is going from bad to worse.
    Pity me, I've been accused of being humourless.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Mr. Royale/Mr. Freggles, I bow before your lagomorphic prophecies.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited October 2014

    Interesting idea on the building homes and selling them for a discount - will be interesting to see the detail on that one. Addresses one of the main criticisms of the right-to-buy for council houses, that the houses sold were not replaced.

    Wonder how you will decide what the market price for those houses is, when the existence of a bunch of houses for first-time buyers with a 20% discount will suppress the market price at the bottom end of the market anyway. Potential for a bit of smoke and mirrors there.

    The problem with addressing the housing shortage by all these little schemes is that they fail to address the crux of the issue, which is supply growing a lot slower than demand. You can give all the handouts you like to first time buyers, but they're still going to get frustrated when they've outgrown their one bed flat and can't afford a family home.
  • Look too at what was not said by Cameron and Osborne. I think we can assume that, this time, the Conservatives will not pledge to leave the Winter Fuel Allowance, free TV licences, and bus passes untouched.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Is it true that Cameron has said we'll be returning to imperial units of measurement? If so, he's lost my vote.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Look too at what was not said by Cameron and Osborne. I think we can assume that, this time, the Conservatives will not pledge to leave the Winter Fuel Allowance, free TV licences, and bus passes untouched.

    That is how they plan to fund the tax cuts?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054
    Back of the fag pack says total announced tax cuts will cost around £8-9bn, but will be slightly offset by rises in VAT take and savings in working tax credits.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,779
    CharmlessNurk ‏@CharmlessNurk · 7 mins7 minutes ago
    @LordSkipVC Miliband's hiding behind his sofa, clinging to his 'blanky', while Ed Balls strokes his hair and says "the bad man's gone now".

    Ouch....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    alexmassie: "Better than Miliband" is about as good an example of the soft bigotry of low expectations as you could ever hope to find.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312

    Interesting idea on the building homes and selling them for a discount - will be interesting to see the detail on that one. Addresses one of the main criticisms of the right-to-buy for council houses, that the houses sold were not replaced.

    Wonder how you will decide what the market price for those houses is, when the existence of a bunch of houses for first-time buyers with a 20% discount will suppress the market price at the bottom end of the market anyway. Potential for a bit of smoke and mirrors there.

    Don't like this policy ,its divisive, interfering and complicated. There is also no absolute rule to say owning homes is good.
    there's also the problem that we're effectively giving people money, and not people who necessarily deserve to be given taxpayers' money either

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054

    Look too at what was not said by Cameron and Osborne. I think we can assume that, this time, the Conservatives will not pledge to leave the Winter Fuel Allowance, free TV licences, and bus passes untouched.

    Good catch. £3bn saved.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited October 2014

    Look too at what was not said by Cameron and Osborne. I think we can assume that, this time, the Conservatives will not pledge to leave the Winter Fuel Allowance, free TV licences, and bus passes untouched.

    Not sure why they don't just make WFA taxable income . Its effectively state pension anyway (you don't have to spend it on fuel). The basic state pensioners would still not pay tax on it and higher earners would pay at whatever their marginal rate is be it 20,40,45%
    Also easy to do in terms of admin
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    Is it true that Cameron has said we'll be returning to imperial units of measurement? If so, he's lost my vote.

    If it's UKIP policy he'll do it, however i'm not sure it is UKIP policy.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366

    The emotional stuff works for Cammo because they did lose a child. No one would do pretendy emotions about the NHS after that.

    But overall, the Ukip answer writes itself. Keep up the pressure on him and he might finally adopt some sensible policies. Even better, vote for the original rather than the pressed man.

    But I'd expect a Tory bounce now.

    I voted LD in 2010 so now I'm a political orphan.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Is it true that Cameron has said we'll be returning to imperial units of measurement? If so, he's lost my vote.

    If it's UKIP policy he'll do it, however i'm not sure it is UKIP policy.
    It would be equivalent to saying: we want to make life especially hard for Brits who want to become scientists or engineers.

    But I guess it wouldn't affect those who want to get degrees in Media Studies.
  • Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    edited October 2014
    If the Conservative Party didn't fundamentally believe in making the poorest poorer and the richest richer, they would undo their VAT increase rather than focusing on cutting income tax, especially among the wealthiest.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,693

    Mr. Royale/Mr. Freggles, I bow before your lagomorphic prophecies.

    Please, be standing!

    I'm actually gobsmacked he's done it in such a 'big bang' way, though. I was expecting a minor rise to, say, 44k now with an index/growth link to return it to 50k over the next parliament.

    If I read it right, this means I'll be thousands better off a year. It sounds very expensive. But I'm happy.

    Very strong incentive for public sector workers (in that bracket) to vote Conservative now too.



  • Interesting idea on the building homes and selling them for a discount - will be interesting to see the detail on that one. Addresses one of the main criticisms of the right-to-buy for council houses, that the houses sold were not replaced.

    Wonder how you will decide what the market price for those houses is, when the existence of a bunch of houses for first-time buyers with a 20% discount will suppress the market price at the bottom end of the market anyway. Potential for a bit of smoke and mirrors there.

    Don't like this policy ,its divisive, interfering and complicated. There is also no absolute rule to say owning homes is good.
    there's also the problem that we're effectively giving people money, and not people who necessarily deserve to be given taxpayers' money either

    yes its redistributing nonsense
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Oliver_PB said:

    If the Conservative Party didn't fundamentally believe in making the poorest poorest and the richest richer, they would undo their VAT increase rather than cutting income tax.

    Maybe they want to discourage consumption in favour of saving?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Look too at what was not said by Cameron and Osborne. I think we can assume that, this time, the Conservatives will not pledge to leave the Winter Fuel Allowance, free TV licences, and bus passes untouched.

    Not sure why they don't just make WFA taxable income . Its effectively state pension anyway (you don't have to spend it on fuel). The basic state pensioners would still not pay tax on it and higher earners would pay at whatever their marginal rate is be it 20,40,45 or 50%
    Also easy to do in terms of admin
    Will any pensioner vote conservative if they tax the winter fuel allowance and bus passes?
  • Look too at what was not said by Cameron and Osborne. I think we can assume that, this time, the Conservatives will not pledge to leave the Winter Fuel Allowance, free TV licences, and bus passes untouched.

    Not sure why they don't just tax WFA . Its effectively state pension anyway (you don't have to spend it on fuel). The basic state pensioners would still not pay tax on it and higher earners would pay at whatever their marginal rate is be it 20,40,45 or 50%
    Also easy to do in terms of admin
    Yes, that would be the simplest, or even easier deem it to be net of basic-rate tax so that that only higher-rate taxpayers would have to pay anything. Of course that wouldn't raise very much at all, but it would be very easy to implement and would be fair.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    The UKIP 2010 manifesto promises a return to Imperial measurements. Please somebody tell me that's not going to be in 2015 too.

  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932
    rcs1000 said:

    Is it true that Cameron has said we'll be returning to imperial units of measurement? If so, he's lost my vote.

    I thought you were joking, but no:
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/30/david-cameron-schools-should-teach-mainly-in-imperial-measurements

    Hang on I've got a ten bob note somewhere.
  • Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Is it true that Cameron has said we'll be returning to imperial units of measurement? If so, he's lost my vote.

    If it's UKIP policy he'll do it, however i'm not sure it is UKIP policy.
    Don't they have a policy to make compulsory certain design schemes for trains FGS!!
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Cast Iron Cammie! What could possibly go wrong?

    "Conservative Chief Whip Michael Gove tells Andrew Neil that he is not going to say "what is in each progressive Budget", but that the promises made by David Cameron in his speech will be fulfilled by 2020".
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-29439641
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited October 2014
    isam said:


    Do you really think Cameron would be doing things like this and scrapping Human Rights if people weren't voting UKIP?

    I didn't see the speech but according to my twitter feed, which is rarely wrong, the thing they were floating about leaving the ECHR has disappeared without trace and they're just repeating the thing from their 2010 manifesto to replace the Human Rights Act with a British Bill of Rights, the content of which is still unspecified and probably consists of a new name for the Human Rights Act. (The Human Rights Act is that law that allows you to sue to exercise rights you have with the European court in British courts, which is mostly the same in practice but quicker and cheaper.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Oliver_PB said:

    If the Conservative Party didn't fundamentally believe in making the poorest poorest and the richest richer, they would undo their VAT increase rather than cutting income tax.

    I believe Conservative policy is to turn the poor into paupers, and ensure that all earning over £1m a year get free access to private jets.

    Oh wait, no it's not.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Cameron hopes to shoot UKIP's fox, might work if defection doesn't happen today, or defector is a no mark. Perhaps the 40% tax rate kicking in at £50K might grab a few headlines, but does it do enough to convince those on £20-£30K to vote for him?

    The housing policy looks nuts, more subsidies than substantive encouragement to build more homes.
  • rcs1000 said:

    The UKIP 2010 manifesto promises a return to Imperial measurements. Please somebody tell me that's not going to be in 2015 too.

    I think that a good working assumption is that anything which was in the 2010 UKIP manifesto definitely won't be in the 2015 manifesto.
This discussion has been closed.