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Just 19% think the Chancellor’s changes will make them better off – politicalbetting.com

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  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,506

    TOPPING said:

    It all comes down to Covid and, dare I say, @contrarian's view of our reaction.

    Once you deem a situation, however seemingly dire, to be an emergency needing extraordinary fiscal measures then you move the Overton window dramatically.

    If you say Covid is a national emergency then you can say the NHS or the homeless or the railways or the cost of living crisis is a national emergency and go again on the fiscal splurging.

    Except they aren't even doing that. None of the measures announced today relate to the most urgent problems facing the country.
    Yep, just pure pursuit of (extreme) political ideology.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    edited September 23
    Truss was right, Sunak was wrong to attempt austerity on a recessionary economy.

    This is even worse, though.

    I think from a purely macro perspective that the extra borrowing is fine. The problem is that Truss/Kwarteng have made no efforts whatsoever to present it within a broader narrative of fiscal responsibility.

    Then, underneath that, you have a giveaway which doesn’t actually incent improved productivity and is - to my opinion - frankly immoral in terms of its distribution.

    The market is voting with its feet.

    It beggars belief that Big G posted earlier that the average family will be pleased with this.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565
    Dom Cummings did say that Truss is "properly bonkers"
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,635
    edited September 23

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1573334172340551684

    After today’s UK Budget’s Vat-free tourist shopping, for Irish person travelling to England…

    1. iPhone 14 Pro
    Ireland - €1,339
    England - €980

    2. MacBook Air M2
    Ireland - €1,529
    England - €1,170

    Of which not a single penny will be made by the UK Government...

    Can you explain how an Irish person can travel to Great Britain and shop at Apple without the UK government generating any revenue at all?
    Irish Ferries Dublin to Holyhead 8:15-11:30 pick up the MacBook in Holyhead Argos, then Holyhead to Dublin 14:45-18:00. €57 on November 10th, for example.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,035



    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1573334172340551684

    After today’s UK Budget’s Vat-free tourist shopping, for Irish person travelling to England…

    1. iPhone 14 Pro
    Ireland - €1,339
    England - €980

    2. MacBook Air M2
    Ireland - €1,529
    England - €1,170

    Of which not a single penny will be made by the UK Government...

    The taxes on the employment of the person working in the phone shop? The accommodation and meals the tourist buys to make the trip?
    The hotel room, the pubs, the restaurants etc... VAT free shopping is about the one policy in this mess that actually makes sense.
    I think a fair bit of it makes sense.

    I do question why some things that are in the emergency budget aren't just part of a main budget down the line though.

    I think that having the temerity to grab for growth was always going to meet with a chorus of objection (and they must have known this) - so perhaps they just thought get the fruitier things out of the way now.

    In many ways, the enterprise zones, the part we know least about, is the most interesting aspect of the budget. How will these interact with freeports - are they what Truss eventually believes in for the whole economy?
    That would make sense, with probably two years to go until the next election.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,934

    carnforth said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1573334172340551684

    After today’s UK Budget’s Vat-free tourist shopping, for Irish person travelling to England…

    1. iPhone 14 Pro
    Ireland - €1,339
    England - €980

    2. MacBook Air M2
    Ireland - €1,529
    England - €1,170

    Of which not a single penny will be made by the UK Government...

    Presumably they will have to stay somewhere and eat food so they support other industries with business which otherwise wouldn't have happened. VAT free shopping is not a huge problem, in fact it makes a lot of sense because it probably has a pretty high multiplier for not a lot of tax loss.
    Its also amoral race to the bottom economics.

    Why should workers in the UK accept that goods they have to pay full price for are much cheaper for wealthy tourists. And what's to stop Ireland doing the same for UK tourists. Now no country gets any revenue.
    France already does. You can get the money back from a machine at the Eurostar terminal or airport.
    It all smells to me. Beggar your neighbour capitalism.
    By extension you must think any policy designed to make the country a more attractive place to invest relative to other countries is morally wrong.
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 229

    MaxPB said:

    UK tax burden as share of GDP



    From the IFS analysis. https://ifs.org.uk/articles/mini-budget-response

    So this horrendously risky tax cutting budget has taken us from the highest rate in 74 years to a tax rate still higher than any of the past 40 pre-pandemic years?

    Taxes are still too high. They should be cut further still, but this is a good start.
    The problem, Bart, is that they're cutting the wrong taxes. There's simply no need to give people like me a £15k+ tax cut. That money would be better used cutting some other tax that is going to have a much higher multiplier.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but just a few months ago weren't you considering moving to Switzerland, which would have meant the government loses all of your taxes?

    If the tax changes encourage more people like your good self to be paying British taxes instead of Swiss, German, Singaporean or American taxes then that could boost revenues overall even while you benefit personally.
    I'm lucky enough to be in the net positive group from the budget (also apparently the top 1% of earners I found out today, yay me), although not by as much as MaxPB I suspect. I've been pondering whether to continue with my pretty good prospects for partnership in a city firm here or to sack it in and emigrate, taking an inevitable (but hopefully temporary) pay cut because I feel like the UK is heading down the Argentina path. This budget is making me go from idle musing to much more serious thought. A debt and currency crisis in a declining country do not make an attractive option for internationally mobile high earners.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,643

    TOPPING said:

    It all comes down to Covid and, dare I say, @contrarian's view of our reaction.

    Once you deem a situation, however seemingly dire, to be an emergency needing extraordinary fiscal measures then you move the Overton window dramatically.

    If you say Covid is a national emergency then you can say the NHS or the homeless or the railways or the cost of living crisis is a national emergency and go again on the fiscal splurging.

    Except they aren't even doing that. None of the measures announced today relate to the most urgent problems facing the country.
    Growth.

    This is the problem with hosing money at problems.

    Need to support businesses and individuals during Covid? Hose them with money.
    Need to help with energy bills? Hose them with money.
    Need to get growth? Yep, hose them with money.

    And then of course politics gets in the way because your idea of going for growth might not be the same as my idea. Or the government's. But the solution is hose everything with money.

    It's what we have become used to.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537

    Black Friday.

    Could the last person to leave the UK please turn out the lights?

    It's all being done to create conditions where you will be able to afford the home of your dreams upon your return from New York.
    I mean, it’s a good time to not live in the UK.
    It pains me, I love the UK and I hate to see this decline.
  • pingping Posts: 3,177

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1573334172340551684

    After today’s UK Budget’s Vat-free tourist shopping, for Irish person travelling to England…

    1. iPhone 14 Pro
    Ireland - €1,339
    England - €980

    2. MacBook Air M2
    Ireland - €1,529
    England - €1,170

    Of which not a single penny will be made by the UK Government...

    Presumably they will have to stay somewhere and eat food so they support other industries with business which otherwise wouldn't have happened. VAT free shopping is not a huge problem, in fact it makes a lot of sense because it probably has a pretty high multiplier for not a lot of tax loss.
    Its also amoral race to the bottom economics.

    Why should workers in the UK accept that goods they have to pay full price for are much cheaper for wealthy tourists. And what's to stop Ireland doing the same for UK tourists. Now no country gets any revenue.
    That’s what they want to happen.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,506
    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    Everyone except a few very high earners will be worse off in the short term because petrol prices will go up in a few weeks unless Sterling mounts an unlikely recovery. Given all of the prime pumping surely it's time for the BoE to call an emergency MPC meeting and put rates up by 1%.

    Odd state of affairs with the government and the BoE doing pushmepullme with the economy. It's like we have Tom & Jerry or Laurel & Hardy in charge although I'm not sure which is which. Certainly looks like it'll be another fine mess to be cleared up by whoever succeeds these jokers.
    Although oil price falls today seem to have managed to outpace Sterling for whatever reason somebody can no doubt explain.

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,308

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1573334172340551684

    After today’s UK Budget’s Vat-free tourist shopping, for Irish person travelling to England…

    1. iPhone 14 Pro
    Ireland - €1,339
    England - €980

    2. MacBook Air M2
    Ireland - €1,529
    England - €1,170

    Of which not a single penny will be made by the UK Government...

    Can you explain how an Irish person can travel to Great Britain and shop at Apple without the UK government generating any revenue at all?
    Irish Ferries Dublin to Holyhead 8:15-11:30 pick up the MacBook in Holyhead Argos, then Holyhead to Dublin 14:45-18:00. €57 on November 10th, for example.
    When I recently travelled to france on the coach, the bill contained a breakdown of VAT, half paid to the UK, half paid to france, because the journey was between the two. This may be true on the ferry. Not to mention the berthing fee.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,836

    Scott_xP said:

    The Commons are having a fortnight off for conferences now, aren't they?

    That's it, Commons has adjourned. Half-day and off to for Friday fish and chips after the biggest tax cutting budget since the 1970s. Commons not back until October 11, after SNP conference. Someone remember to switch off the lights in the chamber.
    I rather suspect it may be recalled if the £ continues to tank.
    What would be the point of that?
  • Remember the images of Kwasi from the funeral on Monday.

    This guy is the guy that is going to rip up economic orthodoxy? The one sweating, giggling and jabbering to himself during our 70-year monarchs funeral?

    It's absolutely tragic how the country has got to this point. The only slight glimmering of fun will be watching Barty wriggle and squirm through his thousands of posts. That's going to be fun.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 31,974
    Off-topic:

    Whilst the loons witter on about pseudo-science, here's a brilliant article on how the ARM chip was developed:
    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/09/a-history-of-arm-part-1-building-the-first-chip/

    In particular, the following which was key to its success:

    "In fact, one of the first test boards the team plugged the ARM into had a broken connection and was not attached to any power at all. It was a big surprise when they found the fault because the CPU had been working the whole time. It had turned on just from electrical leakage coming from the support chips."

    A great British success story.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    Leon said:

    Dom Cummings did say that Truss is "properly bonkers"

    Mps must have known this yet decided to push her into the top 2 anyway...so waht does that say about them
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    Some of this catastrophe was probably determined in the Brexit vote.

    It was a fundamentally unserious vote, and has normalised fundamentally unserious politics.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565

    Remember the images of Kwasi from the funeral on Monday.

    This guy is the guy that is going to rip up economic orthodoxy? The one sweating, giggling and jabbering to himself during our 70-year monarchs funeral?

    It's absolutely tragic how the country has got to this point. The only slight glimmering of fun will be watching Barty wriggle and squirm through his thousands of posts. That's going to be fun.

    Was his peculiar behaviour ever explained?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,145

    Truss was right, Sunak was wrong to attempt austerity on a recessionary economy.

    This is even worse, though.

    I think from a purely macro perspective that the extra borrowing is fine. The problem is that Truss/Kwarteng have made no efforts whatsoever to present it within a broader narrative of fiscal responsibility.

    Then, underneath that, you have a giveaway which doesn’t actually incent improved productivity and is - to my opinion - frankly immoral in terms of its distribution.

    The market is voting with its feet.

    It beggars belief that Big G posted earlier that the average family will be pleased with this.

    The Tory party membership (average age about 83, many of them demented) probably believes that it does, in fact, represent the average family. On that basis, the average family is, indeed, wetting its incontinence pants with excitement.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,508
    Nigelb said:

    ping said:

    Genuine question for @BartholomewRoberts

    Are you disappointed in the reception to this budget among journos, with the markets and on PB? Oh, and the think tanks etc? Oh and the polling in the header.

    I mean, stuff like the IFS judgement must sting, surely?

    He's probably singing in his bath ?
    Edith Piaf sings at Bartholomew Towers.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,506

    Remember the images of Kwasi from the funeral on Monday.

    This guy is the guy that is going to rip up economic orthodoxy? The one sweating, giggling and jabbering to himself during our 70-year monarchs funeral?

    It's absolutely tragic how the country has got to this point. The only slight glimmering of fun will be watching Barty wriggle and squirm through his thousands of posts. That's going to be fun.

    Speaking of the monarchy - Charles must be pleased that his week’s rest for proper mourning has been so rudely interrupted.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,643

    Black Friday.

    Could the last person to leave the UK please turn out the lights?

    It's all being done to create conditions where you will be able to afford the home of your dreams upon your return from New York.
    I mean, it’s a good time to not live in the UK.
    It pains me, I love the UK and I hate to see this decline.
    We haven't declined yet!

    The govt is engaging in the mother of all economic experiments with a low but not impossible chance of success. It is hoping that one section of economic text books is correct.

    Look at @Barty's posts today - all one school of economic orthodoxy.

    If you strip out the iniquity of the proposals (which arguably you could because there are very few measures that, proportionately, will benefit everyone equally and which will make a difference) then it is one attempt at energising the economy via stimulus.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537

    Remember the images of Kwasi from the funeral on Monday.

    This guy is the guy that is going to rip up economic orthodoxy? The one sweating, giggling and jabbering to himself during our 70-year monarchs funeral?

    It's absolutely tragic how the country has got to this point. The only slight glimmering of fun will be watching Barty wriggle and squirm through his thousands of posts. That's going to be fun.

    It’s difficult to watch that film and not conclude he was on some top quality product.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565

    Some of this catastrophe was probably determined in the Brexit vote.

    It was a fundamentally unserious vote, and has normalised fundamentally unserious politics.

    Truss is a Remainer, of course
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,538

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tories spent much of the last decade talking about paying down debt. Going crazy on the credit card now is completely at odds with that message.

    It reminds me of the Lib Dems and tuition fees.

    Yes, this feels to me like a generational error for the Tories. The brand for competence was trashed by Boris quite badly and now the brand for sound money has been set on fire by his successor. If the Tories are competent and good with the nation's finances, people will rightly ask themselves why they deserve our votes.
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tories spent much of the last decade talking about paying down debt. Going crazy on the credit card now is completely at odds with that message.

    It reminds me of the Lib Dems and tuition fees.

    Yes, this feels to me like a generational error for the Tories. The brand for competence was trashed by Boris quite badly and now the brand for sound money has been set on fire by his successor. If the Tories are competent and good with the nation's finances, people will rightly ask themselves why they deserve our votes.
    I get the impression that Truss and Kwateng think they are being clever, they prioritised trying to present a fresh look to shake off 12 years of baggage, but ended up undermining one of the core values underpinning their party.

    Sometime those that consider themselves clever can be really, really dumb.
    Dumb or narrow minded, over confident, arrogant? They strike me as people who will turn up on political documentaries in twenty years, creases on their brow date back to 2023 24, saying “and there we were, so utterly convinced in our own minds we were doing the right thing.”
    Kwateng's lack of experience certainly showed today. I can't imagine any serious politician of the past doing this. He comes across very poorly I thought. Very arrogant.
  • carnforth said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1573334172340551684

    After today’s UK Budget’s Vat-free tourist shopping, for Irish person travelling to England…

    1. iPhone 14 Pro
    Ireland - €1,339
    England - €980

    2. MacBook Air M2
    Ireland - €1,529
    England - €1,170

    Of which not a single penny will be made by the UK Government...

    Presumably they will have to stay somewhere and eat food so they support other industries with business which otherwise wouldn't have happened. VAT free shopping is not a huge problem, in fact it makes a lot of sense because it probably has a pretty high multiplier for not a lot of tax loss.
    Its also amoral race to the bottom economics.

    Why should workers in the UK accept that goods they have to pay full price for are much cheaper for wealthy tourists. And what's to stop Ireland doing the same for UK tourists. Now no country gets any revenue.
    France already does. You can get the money back from a machine at the Eurostar terminal or airport.
    It all smells to me. Beggar your neighbour capitalism.
    By extension you must think any policy designed to make the country a more attractive place to invest relative to other countries is morally wrong.
    Considering the final products of the theory are parasitical tax havens, yes its all degrees of grey.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,035
    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Dom Cummings did say that Truss is "properly bonkers"

    Mps must have known this yet decided to push her into the top 2 anyway...so waht does that say about them
    Is Dom Cummings the font of all knowledge or a muppet who should be ignored today? I lose track, it keeps changing.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,035

    Remember the images of Kwasi from the funeral on Monday.

    This guy is the guy that is going to rip up economic orthodoxy? The one sweating, giggling and jabbering to himself during our 70-year monarchs funeral?

    It's absolutely tragic how the country has got to this point. The only slight glimmering of fun will be watching Barty wriggle and squirm through his thousands of posts. That's going to be fun.

    But you only have 40 posts. That is impressive background knowledge
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    edited September 23
    TOPPING said:

    Black Friday.

    Could the last person to leave the UK please turn out the lights?

    It's all being done to create conditions where you will be able to afford the home of your dreams upon your return from New York.
    I mean, it’s a good time to not live in the UK.
    It pains me, I love the UK and I hate to see this decline.
    We haven't declined yet!

    The govt is engaging in the mother of all economic experiments with a low but not impossible chance of success. It is hoping that one section of economic text books is correct.

    Look at @Barty's posts today - all one school of economic orthodoxy.

    If you strip out the iniquity of the proposals (which arguably you could because there are very few measures that, proportionately, will benefit everyone equally and which will make a difference) then it is one attempt at energising the economy via stimulus.
    The country certainly has been in economic decline (relative to peers) since 2016 and continues to decline, quite rapidly according to market indicators.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917
    Leon said:

    Some of this catastrophe was probably determined in the Brexit vote.

    It was a fundamentally unserious vote, and has normalised fundamentally unserious politics.

    Truss is a Remainer, of course
    Hmm, on the same logic that she is a LD surely.

    Not suggesting that either is wrong, mind.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    Already out of date...

    We keep having to rewrite the top of the splash because financial markets do not want to touch sterling https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1573333193842892801/photo/1
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302

    Some of this catastrophe was probably determined in the Brexit vote.

    It was a fundamentally unserious vote, and has normalised fundamentally unserious politics.

    Decline of this country since 2008 has been something to behold...it of course accelerated after 2016...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    Leon said:

    Some of this catastrophe was probably determined in the Brexit vote.

    It was a fundamentally unserious vote, and has normalised fundamentally unserious politics.

    Truss is a Remainer, of course
    Truss is a Nutter.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,643
    edited September 23

    Some of this catastrophe was probably determined in the Brexit vote.

    It was a fundamentally unserious vote, and has normalised fundamentally unserious politics.

    Also true. It paved the way for form over substance and wishful thinking over policy.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,836
    Jonathan said:



    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tories spent much of the last decade talking about paying down debt. Going crazy on the credit card now is completely at odds with that message.

    It reminds me of the Lib Dems and tuition fees.

    Yes, this feels to me like a generational error for the Tories. The brand for competence was trashed by Boris quite badly and now the brand for sound money has been set on fire by his successor. If the Tories are competent and good with the nation's finances, people will rightly ask themselves why they deserve our votes.
    I get the impression that Truss and Kwateng think they are being clever, they prioritised trying to present a fresh look to shake off 12 years of baggage, but ended up undermining one of the core values underpinning their party.

    Sometime those that consider themselves clever can be really, really dumb.
    Isn't it known as the Dunning-Kruger effect?

    I have had my doubts about whether it might have been a statistical artefact, but the give Kwasi-Truss example, that's hard to argue.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565
    TOPPING said:

    Black Friday.

    Could the last person to leave the UK please turn out the lights?

    It's all being done to create conditions where you will be able to afford the home of your dreams upon your return from New York.
    I mean, it’s a good time to not live in the UK.
    It pains me, I love the UK and I hate to see this decline.
    We haven't declined yet!

    The govt is engaging in the mother of all economic experiments with a low but not impossible chance of success. It is hoping that one section of economic text books is correct.

    Look at @Barty's posts today - all one school of economic orthodoxy.

    If you strip out the iniquity of the proposals (which arguably you could because there are very few measures that, proportionately, will benefit everyone equally and which will make a difference) then it is one attempt at energising the economy via stimulus.
    Yes, it is not impossible that this works. And the markets have called it wrong, and over-reacted

    The Tories better pray that this is the case. Otherwise they are fucked for two decades

  • 👀 👀


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    I bet when it fails they will still say: “Real Brexit has never been tried” https://www.ft.com/content/40cb7430-065d-4bdb-b479-60318d21d361
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302

    TOPPING said:

    Black Friday.

    Could the last person to leave the UK please turn out the lights?

    It's all being done to create conditions where you will be able to afford the home of your dreams upon your return from New York.
    I mean, it’s a good time to not live in the UK.
    It pains me, I love the UK and I hate to see this decline.
    We haven't declined yet!

    The govt is engaging in the mother of all economic experiments with a low but not impossible chance of success. It is hoping that one section of economic text books is correct.

    Look at @Barty's posts today - all one school of economic orthodoxy.

    If you strip out the iniquity of the proposals (which arguably you could because there are very few measures that, proportionately, will benefit everyone equally and which will make a difference) then it is one attempt at energising the economy via stimulus.
    The country certainly has been in economic decline (relative to peers) since 2016 and continues to decline, quite rapidly according to market indicators.
    yeah but we have got blue passports now so theres that....
  • EPG said:

    Remember the images of Kwasi from the funeral on Monday.

    This guy is the guy that is going to rip up economic orthodoxy? The one sweating, giggling and jabbering to himself during our 70-year monarchs funeral?

    It's absolutely tragic how the country has got to this point. The only slight glimmering of fun will be watching Barty wriggle and squirm through his thousands of posts. That's going to be fun.

    But you only have 40 posts. That is impressive background knowledge
    I've lurked on this site for years. Like everyone, I have suffered reading all his various posts on all the many different topics that he is an expert on. It's going to be a joy to watch him wriggle on this one. He fancies himself as an economist. Well let's see.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    Leon said:

    The Tories better pray that this is the case. Otherwise they are fucked for two decades

    As indeed are we
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    Larry Summers is a complete arsehole but he is spot on with his diagnosis of British failure since 2016.
  • TOPPING said:

    Black Friday.

    Could the last person to leave the UK please turn out the lights?

    It's all being done to create conditions where you will be able to afford the home of your dreams upon your return from New York.
    I mean, it’s a good time to not live in the UK.
    It pains me, I love the UK and I hate to see this decline.
    We haven't declined yet!

    The govt is engaging in the mother of all economic experiments with a low but not impossible chance of success. It is hoping that one section of economic text books is correct.

    Look at @Barty's posts today - all one school of economic orthodoxy.

    If you strip out the iniquity of the proposals (which arguably you could because there are very few measures that, proportionately, will benefit everyone equally and which will make a difference) then it is one attempt at energising the economy via stimulus.
    The country certainly has been in economic decline (relative to peers) since 2016 and continues to decline, quite rapidly according to market indicators.
    'How do you go bankrupt...'
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    If you're 25 and put your money in the bank instead of becoming a venture capitalist, you're a "plodder", says Treasury minister.

    Quite, quite mad.


    https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1573338564250804226
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,934
    Scott_xP said:

    I bet when it fails they will still say: “Real Brexit has never been tried” https://www.ft.com/content/40cb7430-065d-4bdb-b479-60318d21d361

    It's revealing how many people are trying to resurrect Brexit arguments (and tired jokes) over this budget.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,372
    Berlusconi - Former Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi has defended Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, saying Russia's leader was "pushed" into the conflict.

    The 85-year-old said Russian troops were meant to replace the government with "decent people" then leave.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63005402
  • pingping Posts: 3,177
    edited September 23
    I think one of the lessons, from today, for future political historians is that it is indeed possible for a new PM to miscalculate the level of political capital they have to spend in their honeymoon.

    Are there any other examples in history which come close?

    I know political history is littered with memoirs of regret from former PMs who feel like they wasted their early days. But is there anyone else who did a “Truss” ? I can’t think of anyone.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    Kwasi Kwarteng detonated a fiscal bomb that will reshape the UK's political, social and economic landscape for years to come, sending markets into meltdown

    The chancellor's response? "Markets will do what they do"

    The Readout with Allegra Stratton ⬇️ https://trib.al/viczXEy
  • I’ve seen how much the cost of borrowing had gone up since Kwasi Kwarteng started his special fiscal operation.

    Trinity does give the world some bellends.

    Sorry Robert.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,508
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tories spent much of the last decade talking about paying down debt. Going crazy on the credit card now is completely at odds with that message.

    It reminds me of the Lib Dems and tuition fees.

    Yes, this feels to me like a generational error for the Tories. The brand for competence was trashed by Boris quite badly and now the brand for sound money has been set on fire by his successor. If the Tories are competent and good with the nation's finances, people will rightly ask themselves why they deserve our votes.
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tories spent much of the last decade talking about paying down debt. Going crazy on the credit card now is completely at odds with that message.

    It reminds me of the Lib Dems and tuition fees.

    Yes, this feels to me like a generational error for the Tories. The brand for competence was trashed by Boris quite badly and now the brand for sound money has been set on fire by his successor. If the Tories are competent and good with the nation's finances, people will rightly ask themselves why they deserve our votes.
    I get the impression that Truss and Kwateng think they are being clever, they prioritised trying to present a fresh look to shake off 12 years of baggage, but ended up undermining one of the core values underpinning their party.

    Sometime those that consider themselves clever can be really, really dumb.
    Dumb or narrow minded, over confident, arrogant? They strike me as people who will turn up on political documentaries in twenty years, creases on their brow date back to 2023 24, saying “and there we were, so utterly convinced in our own minds we were doing the right thing.”
    Kwateng's lack of experience certainly showed today. I can't imagine any serious politician of the past doing this. He comes across very poorly I thought. Very arrogant.
    Arrogant really is an emotive term - over confident and inexperienced, and courageous probably Yes Minister way of putting it.

    It also feels like this new government are like minded mates, all agreeing with each other when they get together, egging each other on in a way - when far stronger template for government is to include people who will give you blood on the carpet discussions, to, whatever the opposite of egging you on is.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,035
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Black Friday.

    Could the last person to leave the UK please turn out the lights?

    It's all being done to create conditions where you will be able to afford the home of your dreams upon your return from New York.
    I mean, it’s a good time to not live in the UK.
    It pains me, I love the UK and I hate to see this decline.
    We haven't declined yet!

    The govt is engaging in the mother of all economic experiments with a low but not impossible chance of success. It is hoping that one section of economic text books is correct.

    Look at @Barty's posts today - all one school of economic orthodoxy.

    If you strip out the iniquity of the proposals (which arguably you could because there are very few measures that, proportionately, will benefit everyone equally and which will make a difference) then it is one attempt at energising the economy via stimulus.
    Yes, it is not impossible that this works. And the markets have called it wrong, and over-reacted

    The Tories better pray that this is the case. Otherwise they are fucked for two decades

    The expectations management has been something special, anyway.
  • What is previous new PM record, for worst run against the pound, in shortest amount of time in office as PM?

    My first thought was Ramsey Macdonald EXCEPT in 1931 he was both outgoing AND incoming PM.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    I said this days ago...

    Includes this:
    After Johnson's 'fuck business', we've now got Truss's 'frack the economy'
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1573347018050871297/photo/1
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,035
    edited September 23
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories better pray that this is the case. Otherwise they are fucked for two decades

    As indeed are we
    Surely Sir Keir will solve everything if he gets in.
  • Driver said:

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    Dom Cummings did say that Truss is "properly bonkers"

    Mps must have known this yet decided to push her into the top 2 anyway...so waht does that say about them
    Is Dom Cummings the font of all knowledge or a muppet who should be ignored today? I lose track, it keeps changing.
    Oh, Dom C remains the career psychopath he was accused of being ages ago.

    And like many (all?) psychopaths, he is ruthless at spotting the psychological weaknesses of others, all the better to exploit them. I wouldn't trust him to run anything, but I would take his criticisms of people seriously.

    That Truss is regarded as being too unstable to be of use to him is probably accurate and definitely significant.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    In 2007 Kwarteng criticised Gordon Brown, in @newstatesman, for increasing borrowing by £8bn: "Brown boasts of his relationship with Prudence, but is not embarrassed by increased government borrowing."

    Today Kwarteng increased borrowing by… 9x as much. https://www.newstatesman.com/long-reads/2007/03/gordon-brown-budget-gives https://twitter.com/harrytlambert/status/1573336949548515331/photo/1
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,035

    Scott_xP said:

    I bet when it fails they will still say: “Real Brexit has never been tried” https://www.ft.com/content/40cb7430-065d-4bdb-b479-60318d21d361

    It's revealing how many people are trying to resurrect Brexit arguments (and tired jokes) over this budget.
    It certainly shows why they're complaining about it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    I did warn everybody that Kwasi was a berk.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,506
    rcs1000 said:

    Berlusconi - Former Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi has defended Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, saying Russia's leader was "pushed" into the conflict.

    The 85-year-old said Russian troops were meant to replace the government with "decent people" then leave.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63005402

    Although interestingly the culprits don’t appear to be the usual suspects (US, NATO etc) but instead the Russian media and (Russian) nationalists in Russia and Ukraine who misled Putin into what was happening in that country.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,538
    edited September 23
    One point which hasn't had much attention is that, even if you look at the Special Financial Operation only in the narrow terms of fiscal stimulus, it's likely to be quite ineffective. The top 1% of earners who are getting the benefit of the largesse financed on the never-never aren't cash-poor, almost by definition. In fact, many of them still have unusually high cash balances built up during lockdown, when it was hard to spend money. So this extra cash is not going to be quickly recycled into the wider economy, it's probably going into inflating asset prices further.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,538

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tories spent much of the last decade talking about paying down debt. Going crazy on the credit card now is completely at odds with that message.

    It reminds me of the Lib Dems and tuition fees.

    Yes, this feels to me like a generational error for the Tories. The brand for competence was trashed by Boris quite badly and now the brand for sound money has been set on fire by his successor. If the Tories are competent and good with the nation's finances, people will rightly ask themselves why they deserve our votes.
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tories spent much of the last decade talking about paying down debt. Going crazy on the credit card now is completely at odds with that message.

    It reminds me of the Lib Dems and tuition fees.

    Yes, this feels to me like a generational error for the Tories. The brand for competence was trashed by Boris quite badly and now the brand for sound money has been set on fire by his successor. If the Tories are competent and good with the nation's finances, people will rightly ask themselves why they deserve our votes.
    I get the impression that Truss and Kwateng think they are being clever, they prioritised trying to present a fresh look to shake off 12 years of baggage, but ended up undermining one of the core values underpinning their party.

    Sometime those that consider themselves clever can be really, really dumb.
    Dumb or narrow minded, over confident, arrogant? They strike me as people who will turn up on political documentaries in twenty years, creases on their brow date back to 2023 24, saying “and there we were, so utterly convinced in our own minds we were doing the right thing.”
    Kwateng's lack of experience certainly showed today. I can't imagine any serious politician of the past doing this. He comes across very poorly I thought. Very arrogant.
    Arrogant really is an emotive term - over confident and inexperienced, and courageous probably Yes Minister way of putting it.

    It also feels like this new government are like minded mates, all agreeing with each other when they get together, egging each other on in a way - when far stronger template for government is to include people who will give you blood on the carpet discussions, to, whatever the opposite of egging you on is.
    I accept the point about arrogant. But usually successful politicians show some kind of sympathy and connections with the electorate. I get the impression from Kwateng that he is somehow above us and if we don't get his master plan it's our fault not his.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    I think this proves that a PM and Chancellor should not have shagged each other.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,372

    Off-topic:

    Whilst the loons witter on about pseudo-science, here's a brilliant article on how the ARM chip was developed:
    https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/09/a-history-of-arm-part-1-building-the-first-chip/

    In particular, the following which was key to its success:

    "In fact, one of the first test boards the team plugged the ARM into had a broken connection and was not attached to any power at all. It was a big surprise when they found the fault because the CPU had been working the whole time. It had turned on just from electrical leakage coming from the support chips."

    A great British success story.

    I knew Sophie when she was still Roger 🤣
  • eek said:

    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1573334172340551684

    After today’s UK Budget’s Vat-free tourist shopping, for Irish person travelling to England…

    1. iPhone 14 Pro
    Ireland - €1,339
    England - €980

    2. MacBook Air M2
    Ireland - €1,529
    England - €1,170

    Of which not a single penny will be made by the UK Government...

    I'm sure that retailers in Ireland will be howling about the consequences and hoping for some sort of remedy to prevent them losing business to the UK.
    So if something is, say, £1200 for a UK citizen, but £1000 for a tourist, could I not just pay a tourist £1100 to buy it for me?
  • I think this proves that a PM and Chancellor should not have shagged each other.

    What ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113

    I did warn everybody that Kwasi was a berk.

    Kwasi Kwarteng for me is an uncomfortable reminder that you can win University Challenge and still be wrong about everything
    https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1572348303781818368
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917
    EPG said:

    Remember the images of Kwasi from the funeral on Monday.

    This guy is the guy that is going to rip up economic orthodoxy? The one sweating, giggling and jabbering to himself during our 70-year monarchs funeral?

    It's absolutely tragic how the country has got to this point. The only slight glimmering of fun will be watching Barty wriggle and squirm through his thousands of posts. That's going to be fun.

    But you only have 40 posts. That is impressive background knowledge
    As Barty seems to be managing to do several score posts a day it will only take a few months for our new playmate @TinkyWinky to, indeed, see 'thousands' of the former's posts.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,836
    edited September 23
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories better pray that this is the case. Otherwise they are fucked for two decades

    As indeed are we
    There's some truth to that. Does anyone think Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng aren't going to walk into cushy jobs after their political careers are over, even if it's only to play Valerian to Shapur?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,538
    Assuming that old school (aka real) conservatives cannot vote for this nonsense, who can they vote for?

    I would assume that whilst some might, many will hesitate to vote for Labour for tribal reasons. Therefore surely there is a huge opportunity for the Lib Dems here with their Orange book, coalition veteran leader.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    pound fallen below 1.09 to dollar now...parity by next week incoming
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,003
    Russia's Obscene "Referendums"
    A media exercise in humiliation, and an element of war crimes

    https://snyder.substack.com/p/russias-obscene-referendums
    ...When Russia claims that huge majorities of Ukrainians want to join Russia, they are claiming that Ukrainians like death pits, that Ukrainians like torture, that Ukrainians like deportation, that Ukrainians like to have their homes destroyed and their cities obliterated.

    The ongoing Russian media exercise ("referendums") is an obscenity. When Russian media announces the invented “results,” Moscow will be claiming that Ukrainians wish to celebrate their own ongoing genocide by joining the country that is perpetrating it. Such an attempt at public humiliation is despicable. The Russian media exercise is nothing more and nothing less than an element of ongoing Russian war crimes...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tories spent much of the last decade talking about paying down debt. Going crazy on the credit card now is completely at odds with that message.

    It reminds me of the Lib Dems and tuition fees.

    Yes, this feels to me like a generational error for the Tories. The brand for competence was trashed by Boris quite badly and now the brand for sound money has been set on fire by his successor. If the Tories are competent and good with the nation's finances, people will rightly ask themselves why they deserve our votes.
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tories spent much of the last decade talking about paying down debt. Going crazy on the credit card now is completely at odds with that message.

    It reminds me of the Lib Dems and tuition fees.

    Yes, this feels to me like a generational error for the Tories. The brand for competence was trashed by Boris quite badly and now the brand for sound money has been set on fire by his successor. If the Tories are competent and good with the nation's finances, people will rightly ask themselves why they deserve our votes.
    I get the impression that Truss and Kwateng think they are being clever, they prioritised trying to present a fresh look to shake off 12 years of baggage, but ended up undermining one of the core values underpinning their party.

    Sometime those that consider themselves clever can be really, really dumb.
    Dumb or narrow minded, over confident, arrogant? They strike me as people who will turn up on political documentaries in twenty years, creases on their brow date back to 2023 24, saying “and there we were, so utterly convinced in our own minds we were doing the right thing.”
    Kwateng's lack of experience certainly showed today. I can't imagine any serious politician of the past doing this. He comes across very poorly I thought. Very arrogant.
    Arrogant really is an emotive term - over confident and inexperienced, and courageous probably Yes Minister way of putting it.

    It also feels like this new government are like minded mates, all agreeing with each other when they get together, egging each other on in a way - when far stronger template for government is to include people who will give you blood on the carpet discussions, to, whatever the opposite of egging you on is.
    I accept the point about arrogant. But usually successful politicians show some kind of sympathy and connections with the electorate. I get the impression from Kwateng that he is somehow above us and if we don't get his master plan it's our fault not his.
    It pains me because on paper he looks really good.

    Economic historian, writer of decently reviewed books.

    But he was considered a waste of space in BEIS and now he is will be associated with these kamakwasi economics.
  • One point which hasn't had much attention is that, even if you look at the Special Financial Operation only in the narrow terms of fiscal stimulus, it's likely to be quite ineffective. The top 1% of earners who are getting benefit of the largesse financed on the never-never aren't cash-poor, almost by definition. In fact, many of them still have unusually high cash balances built up during lockdown, when it was hard to spend money. So this extra cash is not going to be quickly recycled into the wider economy, it's probably go into inflating asset prices further.

    Yes I commented upon that in the previous thread.

    Some nice juicy tax cuts for the well-off who don't need it and have a low propensity to spend it.
    Meanwhile those in the middle and bottom suffer the fiscal drag, rampant inflation and increasing interest rates.

    Aggregate demand ain't being boosted by this plan. It's just a huge dose of inflation with nothing to show for it. Wanton self-harm. Sabotage. Madness. Take yer pick.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,506

    One point which hasn't had much attention is that, even if you look at the Special Financial Operation only in the narrow terms of fiscal stimulus, it's likely to be quite ineffective. The top 1% of earners who are getting benefit of the largesse financed on the never-never aren't cash-poor, almost by definition. In fact, many of them still have unusually high cash balances built up during lockdown, when it was hard to spend money. So this extra cash is not going to be quickly recycled into the wider economy, it's probably go into inflating asset prices further.

    Which just go to show that virtually all fiscal and monetary policies have their merits - but the point is not to advocate on the basis of rigid ideology but to use them at a time when there are definable problems for which those measures will have a role in combatting.
  • Scott_xP said:

    I don’t mean to alarm you, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer has created an absolutely catastrophic bin fire and is now patiently explaining that the Treasury remit is only petrol and matches https://twitter.com/katie_martin_fx/status/1573331859567689728

    Is every political commentator now a failed stand-up comedian? Instead of intelligent discourse we have a never-ending edition of Have I Got News For You.
    Thank goodness that doyenne of HIGNFY has passed the baton to the serious folk. Unfortunately people are now laughing at them through gritted teeth.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565
    "The Pound to Dollar rate reached an all-time low of $1.054 on 25th Feb 1985."

    Will that be breached? Gonna be close
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,868
    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1573334172340551684

    After today’s UK Budget’s Vat-free tourist shopping, for Irish person travelling to England…

    1. iPhone 14 Pro
    Ireland - €1,339
    England - €980

    2. MacBook Air M2
    Ireland - €1,529
    England - €1,170

    Of which not a single penny will be made by the UK Government...

    Apart from the VAT on the travellers’ hotel, food and drink while they’re in the UK, the business rates on the shop that can now afford to stay open…
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,147

    One point which hasn't had much attention is that, even if you look at the Special Financial Operation only in the narrow terms of fiscal stimulus, it's likely to be quite ineffective. The top 1% of earners who are getting the benefit of the largesse financed on the never-never aren't cash-poor, almost by definition. In fact, many of them still have unusually high cash balances built up during lockdown, when it was hard to spend money. So this extra cash is not going to be quickly recycled into the wider economy, it's probably going into inflating asset prices further.

    Yes, my immediate response is to invest it, I've tentatively decided to go into a very high risk start up investment fund but most people won't do that, they'll just bung it into an S&P ETF. I really don't see how the multiplier on the 45% rate cut makes any sense. If they had that money to spend then aligning NI and income tax thresholds would have been a very good tax cut for all working people and it would have a really good multiplier, it's about £300 per working age person. That would get recycled back into the wider economy very, very quickly and it would be a step towards combining NI and income tax rates.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,538
    edited September 23
    This current crop of Tory leaders do not have the memory of what can go wrong, unlike the previous generation. Some of whom had a front row seat.


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    The louder the squealing from the left, the more certain @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz will be that they have got this right. They are truly creating an aspiration nation.
    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1573349307595751426
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    Leon said:

    "The Pound to Dollar rate reached an all-time low of $1.054 on 25th Feb 1985."

    Will that be breached? Gonna be close

    its fallen 2.5 cents in last 3 hours...markets sending clear message...emergency interest rate rises required
  • Not just in UK

    Euro/dollar at 0.9707 and ECB say interest rate hikes will be necessary
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,318
    Leon said:

    "The Pound to Dollar rate reached an all-time low of $1.054 on 25th Feb 1985."

    Will that be breached? Gonna be close

    You betcha it will.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,538

    Not just in UK

    Euro/dollar at 0.9707 and ECB say interest rate hikes will be necessary

    Check out the Euro/Pound chart if you're not sure who is in the worst position.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,836
    Scott_xP said:

    The louder the squealing from the left, the more certain @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz will be that they have got this right. They are truly creating an aspiration nation.
    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1573349307595751426

    Desperation.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,631
    ping said:

    I think one of the lessons, from today, for future political historians is that it is indeed possible for a new PM to miscalculate the level of political capital they have to spend in their honeymoon.

    Are there any other examples in history which come close?

    I know political history is littered with memoirs of regret from former PMs who feel like they wasted their early days. But is there anyone else who did a “Truss” ? I can’t think of anyone.

    Arthur Balfour, who decided to start his premiership by launching a war between his Chancellor and Colonial Secretary?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    Jonathan said:

    Not just in UK

    Euro/dollar at 0.9707 and ECB say interest rate hikes will be necessary

    Check out the Euro/Pound chart if you're not sure who is in the worst position.
    Big G has a pre-saved “but what about Europe!” response which he copies and pastes.

    Saves a lot of time = more time for the Daily Mail’s sudoku puzzles.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 2,002
    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    "The Pound to Dollar rate reached an all-time low of $1.054 on 25th Feb 1985."

    Will that be breached? Gonna be close

    its fallen 2.5 cents in last 3 hours...markets sending clear message...emergency interest rate rises required
    I'm sure the Bank of England will take the necessary firm and decisive action on Monday! 😈👿
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,631
    Scott_xP said:

    The louder the squealing from the left, the more certain @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz will be that they have got this right. They are truly creating an aspiration nation.
    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1573349307595751426

    Well, that's something, because they're not creating an economically secure one.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,506

    Not just in UK

    Euro/dollar at 0.9707 and ECB say interest rate hikes will be necessary

    Probably pricing on the impact of a race to the bottom as U.K. desperately looks to massively undercut Europe on tax rates and EU responds in kind. No winners.
  • Not just in UK

    Euro/dollar at 0.9707 and ECB say interest rate hikes will be necessary

    Perhaps you’ll also post the changes in the cost of government borrowing today.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,631

    PeterM said:

    Leon said:

    "The Pound to Dollar rate reached an all-time low of $1.054 on 25th Feb 1985."

    Will that be breached? Gonna be close

    its fallen 2.5 cents in last 3 hours...markets sending clear message...emergency interest rate rises required
    I'm sure the Bank of England will take the necessary firm and decisive action on Monday! 😈👿
    They'll finally order fair trade coffee? :hushed:
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,538
    Scott_xP said:

    The louder the squealing from the left, the more certain @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz will be that they have got this right. They are truly creating an aspiration nation.
    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1573349307595751426

    If you're bankrupt, all you have left is to aspire.
  • Reece Topley should be dropped from the England team until he gets rid of his mullet.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565
    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The louder the squealing from the left, the more certain @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz will be that they have got this right. They are truly creating an aspiration nation.
    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1573349307595751426

    If you're bankrupt, all you have left is to aspire.
    We are all of us lying in the gutter, but some of us are gazing at the stars
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,032
    edited September 23

    Jonathan said:

    Not just in UK

    Euro/dollar at 0.9707 and ECB say interest rate hikes will be necessary

    Check out the Euro/Pound chart if you're not sure who is in the worst position.
    Big G has a pre-saved “but what about Europe!” response which he copies and pastes.

    Saves a lot of time = more time for the Daily Mail’s sudoku puzzles.
    Why are you so personal and insulting

    It is not necessary and if you do not want to live in our wonderful country then you have freedom to choose to live elsewhere

    The carnage happening across Europe is relevant as it demonstrates the dollar strength

    As far as today's measures is concerned I would not have reduced the top rate of tax

    I have no problem debating but catty remarks hardly contribute to an argument
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113

    Reece Topley should be dropped from the England team until he gets rid of his mullet.

    Of all the policies that could have been announced today, a punitive tax on mullets wasn't in there...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,537
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The louder the squealing from the left, the more certain @KwasiKwarteng and @trussliz will be that they have got this right. They are truly creating an aspiration nation.
    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1573349307595751426

    If you're bankrupt, all you have left is to aspire.
    We are all of us lying in the gutter, but some of us are gazing at the stars
    Indeed.
    How did it end for Mr Wilde?
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    Jonathan said:

    It's a remarkable achievement in less than two weeks to make people yearn for the stability, competence and political care of Boris Johnson.

    whats remarkable is since Blair each Pm has been worse than the last...from Brown to Cameron to May to Johnson to Truss....at this rate we will soon be led by someone akin to the President in the film idiocracy
This discussion has been closed.