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Muddying the Waters on BoJo’s £130k legal bill – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 15 in General
imageMuddying the Waters on BoJo’s £130k legal bill – politicalbetting.com

The advice has been published. You can read it here. Quite why it has been published on a government website when it is advice to the Prime Minister (instructing Peters & Peters, a reputable firm well-known to lawyers practising in the field of fraud and other financial shenanigans) is unclear. The advice is long and learned, with many references to Erskine May and others. But it is curious because it is based on one fundamentally flawed understanding and one (possibly unintentional) revealing one. The first is best set out in this analysis by Professor Mark Elliott, an eminent constitutional lawyer. In summary, it is that Boris’s lawyers are seeking to treat the Privileges and Standards Committee and its work as if it were a non-Parliamentary public body and saying that it is not complying with the rules applicable to such bodies. But that is precisely the point of the Committee: it is not a normal public authority but a Parliamentary one and entitled to set its own rules as to what it can look into and how. As Professor Elliott puts it, the legal advice is the equivalent of criticising a rugby team for not following the rules of football.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033
    edited September 2
    Oooh. First.

    Excellent timing after a few days away.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,457
    Second by a short head.
    Lack of r n' r.
  • FPT

    Have to be honest, I'm not as enraged by the Pannick advice (and the cost to the taxpayer therein) as I am by the Winsor report on the Cressida Dick ousting.

    That report is utter bollocks and the author and the Home Secretary seem oblivious to the fact it was the same ruse that one Boris Johnson used to oust Ian Blair.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033
    edited September 2
    On a more on-topic point, is there a relationship between Lord Pannick and Peters & Peters? I am not clear on that.

    And thank-you for the header.
  • MattW said:

    On a more on-topic point, is there a relationship between Lord Pannick and Peters & Peters? I am not clear on that.

    And thank-you for the header.

    They've probably instructed him on many many occasions.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,033

    MattW said:

    On a more on-topic point, is there a relationship between Lord Pannick and Peters & Peters? I am not clear on that.

    And thank-you for the header.

    They've probably instructed him on many many occasions.
    Including this one?

    So that makes him the QC instructed by the P&P Solicitors?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,604

    FPT

    Have to be honest, I'm not as enraged by the Pannick advice (and the cost to the taxpayer therein) as I am by the Winsor report on the Cressida Dick ousting.

    That report is utter bollocks and the author and the Home Secretary seem oblivious to the fact it was the same ruse that one Boris Johnson used to oust Ian Blair.

    Having Dick withdrawal symptoms or something?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,819
    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,604
    boulay said:

    The timing of this thread is very inconsiderate. I made a hilarious Dick joke in the last - a real 5 liker.

    Christ Lucky, this isn’t Facebook for the likes, it’s a serious discussion site for brilliant minds dissecting the political issues of the day and their ramifications for betting markets. I will however give you a like because I’m feeling joyful.
    Apols. :lol:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,205

    It is not fully clear to my how and why Britain lost industrial puissance in shipbuilding, aeronutical engineering, and auto manufacture.

    The traditional explanations (blame the unions, blame management) don’t really satisfy me.

    It was both together. No one wanted or accepted change.

    The problems were evident before WWI.

    When Jellicoe wanted built up guns for the battleships, rather than wire wound, he was told no by the gun makers. Because they had their process, the unions would get upset and it would all be inconvenient.

    When, some years later, Denny designed the first U.K. longitudinally framed destroyer, a delegation from the unions and management of the shipyards asked for him to be fired. Since they had a nice business building transverse framed ships.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,819
    Scott_xP said:

    boulay said:

    Christ Lucky, this isn’t Facebook for the likes, it’s a serious discussion site for brilliant minds dissecting the political issues of the day and their ramifications for betting markets.

    Wait, what ???
    You are fine Scot, you have clearly never been interested in garnering “likes”…

    Sorry

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    Presumably there is not enough popcorn in the known universe to cope with a surprise Sunak win?

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The timing of this thread is very inconsiderate. I made a hilarious Dick joke in the last - a real 5 liker.

    It wasn't all that. You should have set up a gag about the Met being so supportive of Cressida it was like one big family surrounding her with love and affection. Dick's force kin.
  • MattW said:

    On a more on-topic point, is there a relationship between Lord Pannick and Peters & Peters? I am not clear on that.

    And thank-you for the header.

    In general, barristers are instructed by solicitors rather than directly (although reforms have made direct instruction possible in certain circumstances). So the fact the contractual relationship would be with the solicitor who goes to a preferred barrister on your behalf is pretty normal.

    Pannick would have enjoyed a big share of the overall fee ultimately, but P&P aren't totally a post box. The formal instructions to counsel will have been quite complex in terms of the questions being ask (notably because you try not to ask questions unless you really want an answer - "what do you reckon?" is a really bad way to instruct) and there's also provision of relevant papers etc.

    It is unusual to go out to private solicitors rather than the Government Legal Department (and quite fishy as the GLD tend to be more independent than someone you're directly paying to get to a "helpful" answer). But the basic structure isn't odd.

  • Presumably there is not enough popcorn in the known universe to cope with a surprise Sunak win?

    I think my smugness at a 250/1 winner might overwhelm the universe, so no opportunity for popcorn buying.

    Not even my mythical legendary modesty could spare us from the smugness.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,604

    Presumably there is not enough popcorn in the known universe to cope with a surprise Sunak win?

    I don't think Sunak's team has even spread enough doubt to perpetrate a successful fraud to be honest. I think if he was announced, everyone would just chuckle and say 'Hmm, nice try son.'.
  • boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Not until after the next General Election.
  • On topic.

    I suppose we can take some encouragement that the contract didn’t go to a confectioners owned by Boris Johnson’s neighbour

    https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1565785279042043908
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,148
    Another belter Cyclefree. Quite honestly it sounds ridiculous. Bigger issue is how come the taxpayer is footing the legal bills?
  • MattW said:

    MattW said:

    On a more on-topic point, is there a relationship between Lord Pannick and Peters & Peters? I am not clear on that.

    And thank-you for the header.

    They've probably instructed him on many many occasions.
    Including this one?

    So that makes him the QC instructed by the P&P Solicitors?
    See here.


  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,241

    Presumably there is not enough popcorn in the known universe to cope with a surprise Sunak win?

    It would be so funny. The look on the faces of all those who changed sides as the polling got worse for him.
  • boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 8,472
    o/t. The spat over Cressida Dick's departure is ridiculous. She quite clearly wasn't doing a good job, and neither is Saddiq Khan (at least in policing matters). Let's hope Mark Rowley will do better, with a decent wind, far, far better.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,241
    On topic. No diminution in the stench even as he leaves office.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,819

    Presumably there is not enough popcorn in the known universe to cope with a surprise Sunak win?

    I think my smugness at a 250/1 winner might overwhelm the universe, so no opportunity for popcorn buying.

    Not even my mythical legendary modesty could spare us from the smugness.
    It’s not even the money issue on the bet I made - I was just really looking forward to having a PM I was a school prefect to and probably was a grim bully to. It’s been taken away from me by an awkward blonde robot.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,241

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
  • FPT

    Have to be honest, I'm not as enraged by the Pannick advice (and the cost to the taxpayer therein) as I am by the Winsor report on the Cressida Dick ousting.

    That report is utter bollocks and the author and the Home Secretary seem oblivious to the fact it was the same ruse that one Boris Johnson used to oust Ian Blair.

    Anyone who has dealt with Tom Winsor professionally may allow themselves a sly chuckle at his conclusion that Dick was intimidated by Khan and that there was undue pressure.
  • boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,819
    boulay said:

    Presumably there is not enough popcorn in the known universe to cope with a surprise Sunak win?

    I think my smugness at a 250/1 winner might overwhelm the universe, so no opportunity for popcorn buying.

    Not even my mythical legendary modesty could spare us from the smugness.
    It’s not even the money issue on the bet I made - I was just really looking forward to having a PM I was a school prefect to and probably was a grim bully to. It’s been taken away from me by an awkward blonde robot.
    I could have made up loads of anecdotes about how when he was my fag/sweat I used his buttocks for cooking crumpets and I called him “Rishi Toast-rack”. Devastated.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Presumably there is not enough popcorn in the known universe to cope with a surprise Sunak win?

    I think my smugness at a 250/1 winner might overwhelm the universe, so no opportunity for popcorn buying.

    Not even my mythical legendary modesty could spare us from the smugness.
    Greed. serious punters realise that the bread and butter 100/1 shots are where the money is made, not these flashy long odds losers.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,046
    A good idea from the editors to focus on this one, even if it speeds up some earlier threads a bit.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,819
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Presumably there is not enough popcorn in the known universe to cope with a surprise Sunak win?

    I think my smugness at a 250/1 winner might overwhelm the universe, so no opportunity for popcorn buying.

    Not even my mythical legendary modesty could spare us from the smugness.
    It’s not even the money issue on the bet I made - I was just really looking forward to having a PM I was a school prefect to and probably was a grim bully to. It’s been taken away from me by an awkward blonde robot.
    I could have made up loads of anecdotes about how when he was my fag/sweat I used his buttocks for cooking crumpets and I called him “Rishi Toast-rack”. Devastated.

    There was a time when he made no effort in a football match so we made him sit in the changing rooms afterwards wearing our dirty kit. He was called Fishy jockstrap until the end of term.

  • boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
  • Another belter Cyclefree. Quite honestly it sounds ridiculous. Bigger issue is how come the taxpayer is footing the legal bills?

    Time for one more "who paid and who refunds?" scandal along the lines of wallpapergate?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,471


    Tony Diver
    @Tony_Diver
    ·
    1h
    Rishi joked at a dinner last night about leaving the UK when he loses the Tory leadership race.

    “I want to reassure people about my political future. I’m not going to jet off to California on Monday,” he said.

    “The flights are much cheaper on Tuesday.”

    Good gag well made, though the idea he's given any consideration to how much a flight costs (for a personal flight anyway) is itself pretty funny.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,849

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    But now I know it's over.
  • Reminder: at some point, inside information about the count may be leaked.

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,471
    I can already see the argument being made that if the investigation goes nowhere, of if there is procedural unfairness which scuppers ir (rightly), that means nothing Boris did was ever a problem in the first place.

    Save our strength and distract with something else instead. Civilization 6 Platinum edition is going for £13 right now, that'll do.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,882

    FPT

    Have to be honest, I'm not as enraged by the Pannick advice (and the cost to the taxpayer therein) as I am by the Winsor report on the Cressida Dick ousting.

    That report is utter bollocks and the author and the Home Secretary seem oblivious to the fact it was the same ruse that one Boris Johnson used to oust Ian Blair.

    Anyone who has dealt with Tom Winsor professionally may allow themselves a sly chuckle at his conclusion that Dick was intimidated by Khan and that there was undue pressure.
    She is a frail flower, though. And one can hardly expect the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to be a strong enough character to stand up for herself.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    Is Truss about to get lucky?

    Daniel Kral
    @DanielKral1
    ·
    8h
    Wholesale gas prices in Europe are collapsing (down over 10% today after large falls in previous days) even as Nordstream is under "maintenance" and other pipeline gas flows from Russia continue to be drastically reduced. Russia is no longer the marginal price setter for EU gas.

    https://twitter.com/DanielKral1/status/1565656026921197568
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    kle4 said:


    Tony Diver
    @Tony_Diver
    ·
    1h
    Rishi joked at a dinner last night about leaving the UK when he loses the Tory leadership race.

    “I want to reassure people about my political future. I’m not going to jet off to California on Monday,” he said.

    “The flights are much cheaper on Tuesday.”

    Good gag well made, though the idea he's given any consideration to how much a flight costs (for a personal flight anyway) is itself pretty funny.
    Private jet companies always take Mondays off.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,471

    Is Truss about to get lucky?

    Daniel Kral
    @DanielKral1
    ·
    8h
    Wholesale gas prices in Europe are collapsing (down over 10% today after large falls in previous days) even as Nordstream is under "maintenance" and other pipeline gas flows from Russia continue to be drastically reduced. Russia is no longer the marginal price setter for EU gas.

    https://twitter.com/DanielKral1/status/1565656026921197568

    Possibly, but people have already been hit, and a narrative may be set even if things do not end up being as bad as at one time predicted.

    See the sort of thing where estimated costs treble, then reduce by 10%, and its presented as a saving.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,819
    kle4 said:

    I can already see the argument being made that if the investigation goes nowhere, of if there is procedural unfairness which scuppers ir (rightly), that means nothing Boris did was ever a problem in the first place.

    Save our strength and distract with something else instead. Civilization 6 Platinum edition is going for £13 right now, that'll do.

    I honestly think he’s not Trump 2 looking for a comeback. He will suddenly look at the financial uplift he gets from speeches, tv etc etc and love it. Love the foreign adventures without the wife whilst on book tours, love the freedom to not have to be available 24/7.

    His ego will love people clamouring for his return but he will be like someone who loves the knowledge their ex wants them back, gets the rush from being wanted but also prefers being with the wealthy new girl who lets him do whatever he wants when he wants.

    He won’t come back once he has freedom but knowing he’s wanted and loved will be enough.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    I so hate activist lawyers.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,232
    FT Weekend: “Truss plans risk £60bn budget hole” #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1565793222986764291/photo/1
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,457

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    There is a Light that Never Goes on?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,849

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,985

    Is Truss about to get lucky?

    Daniel Kral
    @DanielKral1
    ·
    8h
    Wholesale gas prices in Europe are collapsing (down over 10% today after large falls in previous days) even as Nordstream is under "maintenance" and other pipeline gas flows from Russia continue to be drastically reduced. Russia is no longer the marginal price setter for EU gas.

    https://twitter.com/DanielKral1/status/1565656026921197568

    They've collapsed by similar amounts before, but it kept going up. No guarantee this is the last spike.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    Is Truss about to get lucky?

    Daniel Kral
    @DanielKral1
    ·
    8h
    Wholesale gas prices in Europe are collapsing (down over 10% today after large falls in previous days) even as Nordstream is under "maintenance" and other pipeline gas flows from Russia continue to be drastically reduced. Russia is no longer the marginal price setter for EU gas.

    https://twitter.com/DanielKral1/status/1565656026921197568

    Do we know why?

    As speculation perhaps now that the storage facilities are getting close to 'full' European nations have eased back on bidding against each other to every available, square meatier of gas?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,862
    @Cyclefree

    As Disraeli once said: “A Conservative government is an organised hypocrisy.” Nice of Boris to conserve that tradition at least.

    I would argue he has only conserved 50% of this tradition. There's nothing organised about this lot.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,862
    Scott_xP said:

    FT Weekend: “Truss plans risk £60bn budget hole” #TomorrowsPapersToday https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1565793222986764291/photo/1

    Only a risk? What improvements has she made?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,457
    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
    My 18 year old is a fanatic.
    He bought me Johnny Marr tickets earlier in the Summer so he'd have someone to go with.
    Good lad.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited September 2
    So the Torygraph source who said the advice was commissioned by the Office of the Prime Minister, part of the Cabinet Office, was wrong. It seems to have been commissioned by Alexander Johnson.

    Gotta wonder whether the other Alexander, Lebedev, bugs his castle. Because Johnson told the Commons that no government business was discussed as far as he was aware. What if he misled them?

    "(T)he equivalent of criticising a rugby team for not following the rules of football." Don't say that in the wrong company!
  • Channel-hopped onto GB News a couple of hours ago.

    Ticker said "Khan 'gets Dick out'".
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,241

    Channel-hopped onto GB News a couple of hours ago.

    Ticker said "Khan 'gets Dick out'".

    Khan wrong to get Dick out, surely?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,046
    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
    "She does a good cover of This Ole House by Shakin Stevens..."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 32,048

    It is not fully clear to my how and why Britain lost industrial puissance in shipbuilding, aeronutical engineering, and auto manufacture.

    The traditional explanations (blame the unions, blame management) don’t really satisfy me.

    It was both together. No one wanted or accepted change.

    The problems were evident before WWI.

    When Jellicoe wanted built up guns for the battleships, rather than wire wound, he was told no by the gun makers. Because they had their process, the unions would get upset and it would all be inconvenient.

    When, some years later, Denny designed the first U.K. longitudinally framed destroyer, a delegation from the unions and management of the shipyards asked for him to be fired. Since they had a nice business building transverse framed ships.
    In response to Mr Walker's original comment, after a conversation on here many moons ago, I purchased Antony Burton's "The Rise and Fall of British Shipbuilding", which details the failures of British shipbuilding in great detail.

    I'd have to reread it to get full chapter and verse, but it was a number of factors all combining. A significant one being that as ships got bigger, many yards were too small to build them - and the private companies too small to invest in new, larger yards (which might be further away from workers), and the nationalised ones too unwilling to invest or to upset the unions and workers.

    Even reorganisation of yards to allow modern ways of working proved difficult, given the sometimes restricted (space-wise) sites. Nowadays large modules are built elsewhere and lifted onto the ship, which requires much more linear space 'inland' from the waterfront that traditional yards.

    If ships had not got so much larger, our industry might have survived.

    (The yard being too small for modern vessels was one of the reasons Thorneycrofts at Woolston in Southampton closed in 2004, and the work moved to Portsmouth. I'm glad I walked past it in 2002, and got to see some ships moored, including RV Triton.)

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rise-Fall-British-Shipbuilding/dp/0752489690
  • Have I Got News For You starts its new series in five minutes with a Boris Johnson special.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 516
    RobD said:

    Is Truss about to get lucky?

    Daniel Kral
    @DanielKral1
    ·
    8h
    Wholesale gas prices in Europe are collapsing (down over 10% today after large falls in previous days) even as Nordstream is under "maintenance" and other pipeline gas flows from Russia continue to be drastically reduced. Russia is no longer the marginal price setter for EU gas.

    https://twitter.com/DanielKral1/status/1565656026921197568

    They've collapsed by similar amounts before, but it kept going up. No guarantee this is the last spike.
    Presumably even if it does somehow collapse further, the utility companies can continue to charge households at the now-set cap price?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,633
    dixiedean said:

    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
    My 18 year old is a fanatic.
    He bought me Johnny Marr tickets earlier in the Summer so he'd have someone to go with.
    Good lad.
    The Smiths are perfect for angsty teens.

    Marr covers the old stuff well. Sings better than Morrisey too!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,985
    pm215 said:

    RobD said:

    Is Truss about to get lucky?

    Daniel Kral
    @DanielKral1
    ·
    8h
    Wholesale gas prices in Europe are collapsing (down over 10% today after large falls in previous days) even as Nordstream is under "maintenance" and other pipeline gas flows from Russia continue to be drastically reduced. Russia is no longer the marginal price setter for EU gas.

    https://twitter.com/DanielKral1/status/1565656026921197568

    They've collapsed by similar amounts before, but it kept going up. No guarantee this is the last spike.
    Presumably even if it does somehow collapse further, the utility companies can continue to charge households at the now-set cap price?
    You'd assume that there would be significant downward pressure, unless they were acting as a cartel.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,819

    Have I Got News For You starts its new series in five minutes with a Boris Johnson special.

    Sitting in my garden waiting to hear Stereophonics play live a few fields away just became an even more attractive proposition!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,542
    pm215 said:

    RobD said:

    Is Truss about to get lucky?

    Daniel Kral
    @DanielKral1
    ·
    8h
    Wholesale gas prices in Europe are collapsing (down over 10% today after large falls in previous days) even as Nordstream is under "maintenance" and other pipeline gas flows from Russia continue to be drastically reduced. Russia is no longer the marginal price setter for EU gas.

    https://twitter.com/DanielKral1/status/1565656026921197568

    They've collapsed by similar amounts before, but it kept going up. No guarantee this is the last spike.
    Presumably even if it does somehow collapse further, the utility companies can continue to charge households at the now-set cap price?
    Yes, the way the price cap is set the wholesale prices now are what determine the next price cap.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,297
    (FPT)

    Chris said:

    Is this as open+shut and bad as it's being presented?

    Exc: Taxpayers are footing the bill for Pannick’s legal advice disparaging the Partygate probe by privileges committee.

    £129,700 contract for “legal advice” awarded last month and published today.

    It went to Peters and Peters - who instructed Pannick.

    contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/26bfbb0…


    https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1565761214206156807?t=Id2f6ZIclrN9bawuhjRdvA&s=19

    How is this even legal?
    I suppose it could be argued that as he misled parliament in an official capacity ...
    The committee is not interested in his PM-ship, but rather his parliamentarian-ship.

    His official capacity is neither here nor there.

    This looks to me like an improper use of public funds, and he should be sued for recovery of the monies by the next government.
    I see why you're angry, but there really isn't a legal route for that to happen.

    Johnson didn't personally steal from the petty cash. What happened is that the Cabinet Office made a really stupid decision about what to spend money on. If proper procedures weren't followed, then individual civil servants who signed it off could have disciplinary issues to contend with. Auditors might criticise the controls in place. The Treasury might even say they spent outside agreed delegations. But, ultimately, Johnson will be long gone and there's no legal claim that can realistically be made against him. Indeed, even pursuing it would in itself be throwing away even more public money.
    You could certainly argue that Cabinet Office were acting ultra vires in seeking such an opinion.
    Article 9 of the Bill of Rights clearly states that “… the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament…”

    There’s no way to bring a case to recover the money from Johnson, but Parliament should find whoever authorised this in contempt of Parliament.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,638
    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
    If you do get into Rosemary Clooney, the original This Ol’ House is a banger.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,849
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
    My 18 year old is a fanatic.
    He bought me Johnny Marr tickets earlier in the Summer so he'd have someone to go with.
    Good lad.
    The Smiths are perfect for angsty teens.

    Marr covers the old stuff well. Sings better than Morrisey too!
    She's the least angsty teen you could meet. So far, at least. But she does like a well-crafted lyric and she does like a jangly guitar.

    I've seen the Smyths a couple of times and I'd heartily recommend them. As authentic an experience as you're realistically likely to get, nowadays. Not-Moz is spot on, stopping just short of parody; and as a group they are pretty tight.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,232
    can’t believe I actually write this but….

    “civil servants will reproduce documents using carbon paper if Britain is hit by energy blackouts this winter under emergency plans stress-tested in Whitehall in recent days….”


    https://www.ft.com/content/a0ef9b60-e3ce-4888-b9e4-5bfd6b5055af
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 2,967

    Have I Got News For You starts its new series in five minutes with a Boris Johnson special.

    Is he hosting it again already?!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,542
    Someone is buying Iranian made 122mm artillery ammunition and supplying it to Ukraine. This is particularly interesting in light of the recent news of Iran supplying military drones to Russia.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1565798823703740416
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,046
    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
    My 18 year old is a fanatic.
    He bought me Johnny Marr tickets earlier in the Summer so he'd have someone to go with.
    Good lad.
    The Smiths are perfect for angsty teens.

    Marr covers the old stuff well. Sings better than Morrisey too!
    She's the least angsty teen you could meet. So far, at least. But she does like a well-crafted lyric and she does like a jangly guitar.

    I've seen the Smyths a couple of times and I'd heartily recommend them. As authentic an experience as you're realistically likely to get, nowadays. Not-Moz is spot on, stopping just short of parody; and as a group they are pretty tight.
    A gentle nudge toward the REMs may be called for.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,542
    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Chris said:

    Is this as open+shut and bad as it's being presented?

    Exc: Taxpayers are footing the bill for Pannick’s legal advice disparaging the Partygate probe by privileges committee.

    £129,700 contract for “legal advice” awarded last month and published today.

    It went to Peters and Peters - who instructed Pannick.

    contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/26bfbb0…


    https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1565761214206156807?t=Id2f6ZIclrN9bawuhjRdvA&s=19

    How is this even legal?
    I suppose it could be argued that as he misled parliament in an official capacity ...
    The committee is not interested in his PM-ship, but rather his parliamentarian-ship.

    His official capacity is neither here nor there.

    This looks to me like an improper use of public funds, and he should be sued for recovery of the monies by the next government.
    I see why you're angry, but there really isn't a legal route for that to happen.

    Johnson didn't personally steal from the petty cash. What happened is that the Cabinet Office made a really stupid decision about what to spend money on. If proper procedures weren't followed, then individual civil servants who signed it off could have disciplinary issues to contend with. Auditors might criticise the controls in place. The Treasury might even say they spent outside agreed delegations. But, ultimately, Johnson will be long gone and there's no legal claim that can realistically be made against him. Indeed, even pursuing it would in itself be throwing away even more public money.
    You could certainly argue that Cabinet Office were acting ultra vires in seeking such an opinion.
    Article 9 of the Bill of Rights clearly states that “… the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament…”

    There’s no way to bring a case to recover the money from Johnson, but Parliament should find whoever authorised this in contempt of Parliament.
    Can Parliament still pass a Bill of Attainder?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,297
    edited September 2

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Chris said:

    Is this as open+shut and bad as it's being presented?

    Exc: Taxpayers are footing the bill for Pannick’s legal advice disparaging the Partygate probe by privileges committee.

    £129,700 contract for “legal advice” awarded last month and published today.

    It went to Peters and Peters - who instructed Pannick.

    contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/26bfbb0…


    https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1565761214206156807?t=Id2f6ZIclrN9bawuhjRdvA&s=19

    How is this even legal?
    I suppose it could be argued that as he misled parliament in an official capacity ...
    The committee is not interested in his PM-ship, but rather his parliamentarian-ship.

    His official capacity is neither here nor there.

    This looks to me like an improper use of public funds, and he should be sued for recovery of the monies by the next government.
    I see why you're angry, but there really isn't a legal route for that to happen.

    Johnson didn't personally steal from the petty cash. What happened is that the Cabinet Office made a really stupid decision about what to spend money on. If proper procedures weren't followed, then individual civil servants who signed it off could have disciplinary issues to contend with. Auditors might criticise the controls in place. The Treasury might even say they spent outside agreed delegations. But, ultimately, Johnson will be long gone and there's no legal claim that can realistically be made against him. Indeed, even pursuing it would in itself be throwing away even more public money.
    You could certainly argue that Cabinet Office were acting ultra vires in seeking such an opinion.
    Article 9 of the Bill of Rights clearly states that “… the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament…”

    There’s no way to bring a case to recover the money from Johnson, but Parliament should find whoever authorised this in contempt of Parliament.
    Can Parliament still pass a Bill of Attainder?
    Well they’ll certainly need to update this now.
    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt199899/jtselect/jtpriv/43/4306.htm
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,368
    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
    My 18 year old is a fanatic.
    He bought me Johnny Marr tickets earlier in the Summer so he'd have someone to go with.
    Good lad.
    The Smiths are perfect for angsty teens.

    Marr covers the old stuff well. Sings better than Morrisey too!
    She's the least angsty teen you could meet. So far, at least. But she does like a well-crafted lyric and she does like a jangly guitar.

    I've seen the Smyths a couple of times and I'd heartily recommend them. As authentic an experience as you're realistically likely to get, nowadays. Not-Moz is spot on, stopping just short of parody; and as a group they are pretty tight.
    I once wrote half a screenplay about a Smiths tribute band called “These Charming Men” that I abandoned disconsolately when I saw a flier for an actual act of that name in New Cross. The title was the best thing about it TBF.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,457
    edited September 2
    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
    My 18 year old is a fanatic.
    He bought me Johnny Marr tickets earlier in the Summer so he'd have someone to go with.
    Good lad.
    The Smiths are perfect for angsty teens.

    Marr covers the old stuff well. Sings better than Morrisey too!
    She's the least angsty teen you could meet. So far, at least. But she does like a well-crafted lyric and she does like a jangly guitar.

    I've seen the Smyths a couple of times and I'd heartily recommend them. As authentic an experience as you're realistically likely to get, nowadays. Not-Moz is spot on, stopping just short of parody; and as a group they are pretty tight.
    Would recommend Johnny Marr live too. Decent voice, very tight band. Was surprised how much of his non-Smiths stuff I recognised, too.
    And. Can play guitar just like ringing a bell.
    My teen turned to me in amazement and said. "He's older than you Dad!"
    Well. Yeah.
    We're not outside Salford Lads Club anymore, Dorothy.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Chris said:

    Is this as open+shut and bad as it's being presented?

    Exc: Taxpayers are footing the bill for Pannick’s legal advice disparaging the Partygate probe by privileges committee.

    £129,700 contract for “legal advice” awarded last month and published today.

    It went to Peters and Peters - who instructed Pannick.

    contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/26bfbb0…


    https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1565761214206156807?t=Id2f6ZIclrN9bawuhjRdvA&s=19

    How is this even legal?
    I suppose it could be argued that as he misled parliament in an official capacity ...
    The committee is not interested in his PM-ship, but rather his parliamentarian-ship.

    His official capacity is neither here nor there.

    This looks to me like an improper use of public funds, and he should be sued for recovery of the monies by the next government.
    I see why you're angry, but there really isn't a legal route for that to happen.

    Johnson didn't personally steal from the petty cash. What happened is that the Cabinet Office made a really stupid decision about what to spend money on. If proper procedures weren't followed, then individual civil servants who signed it off could have disciplinary issues to contend with. Auditors might criticise the controls in place. The Treasury might even say they spent outside agreed delegations. But, ultimately, Johnson will be long gone and there's no legal claim that can realistically be made against him. Indeed, even pursuing it would in itself be throwing away even more public money.
    You could certainly argue that Cabinet Office were acting ultra vires in seeking such an opinion.
    Article 9 of the Bill of Rights clearly states that “… the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament…”

    There’s no way to bring a case to recover the money from Johnson, but Parliament should find whoever authorised this in contempt of Parliament.
    A judicial review of the authorisation of the payment?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,849

    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    On topic if he gets out there spouting his legal opinion it will cause chaos.

    Pannick on the streets of London
    Pannick on the streets of Birmingham
    I wonder to myself
    Could life ever be sane again?

    Hang the BJ, Hang the BJ
    As everyone gets their Utility Bills next month: Heaven knows I'm miserable now.
    That joke isn’t funny anymore.
    Boris's whole career has been bigmouth strikes again.
    And, in his imagination at least, Bigmouth will strike again.
    On the subject of all this, I this morning overheard my 12 year old daughter tell Alexa to play 'There is a light that never goes out'.
    Apparently she's got into the Smiths.
    I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, I love the Smiths. On the other, she's a 12 year old girl and the Smiths split up 35 years ago. It would be like me, as a 12 year old in 1987, getting into, I don't know, Rosemary Clooney.
    If you do get into Rosemary Clooney, the original This Ol’ House is a banger.
    I've just listened to it. I was, what, 7 when Shakey's version came out. Always something I was aware of without ever really listening to. On re-listening - to the Rosemary Clooney version at least - there's actually quite a lot to it. Three minutes well spent.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,849

    Have I Got News For You starts its new series in five minutes with a Boris Johnson special.

    Is he hosting it again already?!
    For all his failings as a Prime Minister, the occasion he presented HINFY with Clive Anderson and (possibly?) Reginald D Hunter guesting is, I maintain, the genuinely funniest hour of telly of the twentieth century.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,297
    Dynamo said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Chris said:

    Is this as open+shut and bad as it's being presented?

    Exc: Taxpayers are footing the bill for Pannick’s legal advice disparaging the Partygate probe by privileges committee.

    £129,700 contract for “legal advice” awarded last month and published today.

    It went to Peters and Peters - who instructed Pannick.

    contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/26bfbb0…


    https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1565761214206156807?t=Id2f6ZIclrN9bawuhjRdvA&s=19

    How is this even legal?
    I suppose it could be argued that as he misled parliament in an official capacity ...
    The committee is not interested in his PM-ship, but rather his parliamentarian-ship.

    His official capacity is neither here nor there.

    This looks to me like an improper use of public funds, and he should be sued for recovery of the monies by the next government.
    I see why you're angry, but there really isn't a legal route for that to happen.

    Johnson didn't personally steal from the petty cash. What happened is that the Cabinet Office made a really stupid decision about what to spend money on. If proper procedures weren't followed, then individual civil servants who signed it off could have disciplinary issues to contend with. Auditors might criticise the controls in place. The Treasury might even say they spent outside agreed delegations. But, ultimately, Johnson will be long gone and there's no legal claim that can realistically be made against him. Indeed, even pursuing it would in itself be throwing away even more public money.
    You could certainly argue that Cabinet Office were acting ultra vires in seeking such an opinion.
    Article 9 of the Bill of Rights clearly states that “… the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament…”

    There’s no way to bring a case to recover the money from Johnson, but Parliament should find whoever authorised this in contempt of Parliament.
    sanctions
    A judicial review of the authorisation of the payment?
    No, a Parliamentary enquiry.
    The Committee on Privileges should summon the relevant Cabinet Office officials and give them a good grilling to find out who authorised this.
    The sanctions available to Parliament are limited, but a sufficiently forceful reprimand would not be great for the career of whoever did.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,862
    Cookie said:

    Have I Got News For You starts its new series in five minutes with a Boris Johnson special.

    Is he hosting it again already?!
    For all his failings as a Prime Minister, the occasion he presented HINFY with Clive Anderson and (possibly?) Reginald D Hunter guesting is, I maintain, the genuinely funniest hour of telly of the twentieth century.
    Stephen Amos, not Reginald D Hunter.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,096
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/02/scotland-refuse-and-school-strikes-called-off-after-credible-pay-offer

    Oncve the SG intervenes (but that would be interfering with lower levels, Unionists say ...).

    (I don't know why the Graun keeps saying that CoSLA is SNP-led - most of the local authorities are Unionist coalitions of one mixed breed or another, and it's a cross-party organization with a mix on committees and their conveners..)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,877
    edited September 2
    I just did a deep dive on a subject I've never explored


    Immigration INTO Ireland. I was unaware that it has exploded in recent years. For the last recorded year, net migration into Ireland was 64,000

    The equivalent number, in Britain, would be 820,000 - heading towards a million people in a year, and more than twice the peak migration we have ever experienced. Extraordinary

    Irexit on the way? Probably not, but I suggest there is big trouble ahead for Ireland if this continues
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,096
    Leon said:

    I just did a deep dive on a subject I've never explored


    Immigration INTO Ireland. I was unaware that it has exploded in recent years. For the last recorded year, net migration into Ireland was 64,000

    The equivalent number, in Britain, would be 820,000 - heading towards a million people in a year, and more than twice the peak migration we have ever experienced. Extraordinary

    Irexit on the way? Probably not, but I suggest there is big trouble ahead for Ireland if this continues

    Brexiters having second thoughts. Remember those Tory MPs who were assuming they'd have right of residence.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,297
    Trump investigation: Empty folders marked classified found at Mar-a-Lago
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62771613

    What happened to the contents ?
    No way did he take empty boxes from the White House.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,046
    Leon said:

    I just did a deep dive on a subject I've never explored


    Immigration INTO Ireland. I was unaware that it has exploded in recent years. For the last recorded year, net migration into Ireland was 64,000

    The equivalent number, in Britain, would be 820,000 - heading towards a million people in a year, and more than twice the peak migration we have ever experienced. Extraordinary

    Irexit on the way? Probably not, but I suggest there is big trouble ahead for Ireland if this continues

    I imagine the invasion of Ukraine had something to do with that ...
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 555
    Leon said:

    I just did a deep dive on a subject I've never explored


    Immigration INTO Ireland. I was unaware that it has exploded in recent years. For the last recorded year, net migration into Ireland was 64,000

    The equivalent number, in Britain, would be 820,000 - heading towards a million people in a year, and more than twice the peak migration we have ever experienced. Extraordinary

    Irexit on the way? Probably not, but I suggest there is big trouble ahead for Ireland if this continues

    Depends where they're coming from. Based on my experience in Germany, the locals weren't too fussed about other Europeans coming; they were all more or less part of the family. It was people outside of Europe that drove anti-immigration feeling.

    Personally speaking, I found the toleration for intra-European migration admirable and the disdane for Non-European migration deeply troubling.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,457
    Nigelb said:

    Trump investigation: Empty folders marked classified found at Mar-a-Lago
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-62771613

    What happened to the contents ?
    No way did he take empty boxes from the White House.

    What happened to the contents?
    What do mafiosi do with leverage?
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    Leon said:

    I just did a deep dive on a subject I've never explored


    Immigration INTO Ireland. I was unaware that it has exploded in recent years. For the last recorded year, net migration into Ireland was 64,000

    The equivalent number, in Britain, would be 820,000 - heading towards a million people in a year, and more than twice the peak migration we have ever experienced. Extraordinary

    Irexit on the way? Probably not, but I suggest there is big trouble ahead for Ireland if this continues

    After a big push to both deregulate and cut taxes the Irish economy is doing great, As i understand it a pug proportion of those immigrants are high skill, many coming form the US and other English speaking nations, plus some form the EU.

    like all, (or at leased almost all), immigration is great for the economy overall, though it does produces winners and losers, house and rents have both risen markedly with the propotiantly high immigration levels, which has been good for those who one a house, and great for those who one a lot of houses or land that can be built on, less good for those who rent and/or are looking to buy.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571
    edited September 2
    kle4 said:


    Tony Diver
    @Tony_Diver
    ·
    1h
    Rishi joked at a dinner last night about leaving the UK when he loses the Tory leadership race.

    “I want to reassure people about my political future. I’m not going to jet off to California on Monday,” he said.

    “The flights are much cheaper on Tuesday.”

    Good gag well made, though the idea he's given any consideration to how much a flight costs (for a personal flight anyway) is itself pretty funny.
    There have been times, too numerous to mention, I wondered if the people prepping him were actually working for Truss, in a room next door raotfltfao he was actually saying what they wrote for him.

    I don’t know if any of you saw him on This Morning with Andi Peters 🫣 the fakeness of Rishi was making the skin crawl. Why couldn’t he have just been himself, like Dave Cameron always was, just be your genuine self?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,877
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    I just did a deep dive on a subject I've never explored


    Immigration INTO Ireland. I was unaware that it has exploded in recent years. For the last recorded year, net migration into Ireland was 64,000

    The equivalent number, in Britain, would be 820,000 - heading towards a million people in a year, and more than twice the peak migration we have ever experienced. Extraordinary

    Irexit on the way? Probably not, but I suggest there is big trouble ahead for Ireland if this continues

    Brexiters having second thoughts. Remember those Tory MPs who were assuming they'd have right of residence.
    Do a Twitter search. It's fascinating. A lot of Irish people are deeply upset, housing is in crisis, there has been a horrible spate of violent crimes associated with migrants, and a few Irish pundits have begun to talk about "an Aussie style points system". I kid you not

    Did anyone on PB realise that an Iranian Muslim guy beheaded and castrated two Irish gay guys in Sligo in April? I certainly didn't

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sligo-suspect-planned-to-kill-more-men-in-the-coming-days-33hlwh67d


    https://news.sky.com/story/sligo-man-in-his-20s-charged-with-murders-of-two-men-in-irish-town-12590072


    As I said, trouble ahead
  • Leon said:

    I just did a deep dive on a subject I've never explored


    Immigration INTO Ireland. I was unaware that it has exploded in recent years. For the last recorded year, net migration into Ireland was 64,000

    The equivalent number, in Britain, would be 820,000 - heading towards a million people in a year, and more than twice the peak migration we have ever experienced. Extraordinary

    Irexit on the way? Probably not, but I suggest there is big trouble ahead for Ireland if this continues

    According to this net migration to Ireland was:

    2021 +11k
    2020 +29k
    2019 +34k
    2018 +34k
    2017 +20k
    2016 +16k
    2015 +6k
    2014 -9k
    2013 -19k
    2012 -26k
    2011 -27k

    https://emn.ie/immigration-decreases-by-nearly-24-in-year-to-april-2021/#:~:text=The number of emigrants also,compared to +28,900 in 2020.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 11,002
    Later evening all :)

    Yes, the 2021 figure for Ireland was 65,200 but that was down 20,000 on 2020 and well off the 151,000 in the mid 2000s. I've no information on the source location for these immigrants - the UK is likely to be a significant player with the likes of Poland and Romania declining from the numbers in thee earlier 2010s.

    In other matters, the question of "misleading" Parliament is one of those delicious uses of language which teased and tantalised in Yes Minister and similar. You can mislead Parliament deliberately as some allege Boris Johnson and others have done and you can mislead accidentally as Jim Hacker did when events beyond your knowledge and control cause whatever you said to Parliament to be false.

    The net effect, some would assert, is the same. Whether deliberately or accidentally, you have misled Parliament and must suffer the consequences. As far as accidentally misleading Parliament is concerned, those who do so run the additional risk of not looking like being in control of events or even their own Department.

    I'd argue the worst situation for any Government is to look to be out of control of events - yes, things happen quickly as we saw with the pandemic in the spring of 2020 but it's vital for confidence to believe the Government is in control. The sense, as we saw in September 1992, of a Government being out of control is hugely damaging.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,877
    EPG said:

    Leon said:

    I just did a deep dive on a subject I've never explored


    Immigration INTO Ireland. I was unaware that it has exploded in recent years. For the last recorded year, net migration into Ireland was 64,000

    The equivalent number, in Britain, would be 820,000 - heading towards a million people in a year, and more than twice the peak migration we have ever experienced. Extraordinary

    Irexit on the way? Probably not, but I suggest there is big trouble ahead for Ireland if this continues

    I imagine the invasion of Ukraine had something to do with that ...
    It's not just Ukraine, it's from all over. Partly - as said below - because the Irish economy is doing well (and good for them), and partly because of the open border with Ulster/UK (the irony!) and partly because of FoM with Europe

    Ireland speaks English. It has many of the attractions of the UK. The influx is so big and fast it brings infrastructure problems, and housing is calamitously expensive
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,457
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    I just did a deep dive on a subject I've never explored


    Immigration INTO Ireland. I was unaware that it has exploded in recent years. For the last recorded year, net migration into Ireland was 64,000

    The equivalent number, in Britain, would be 820,000 - heading towards a million people in a year, and more than twice the peak migration we have ever experienced. Extraordinary

    Irexit on the way? Probably not, but I suggest there is big trouble ahead for Ireland if this continues

    Brexiters having second thoughts. Remember those Tory MPs who were assuming they'd have right of residence.
    Do a Twitter search. It's fascinating. A lot of Irish people are deeply upset, housing is in crisis, there has been a horrible spate of violent crimes associated with migrants, and a few Irish pundits have begun to talk about "an Aussie style points system". I kid you not

    Did anyone on PB realise that an Iranian Muslim guy beheaded and castrated two Irish gay guys in Sligo in April? I certainly didn't

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sligo-suspect-planned-to-kill-more-men-in-the-coming-days-33hlwh67d


    https://news.sky.com/story/sligo-man-in-his-20s-charged-with-murders-of-two-men-in-irish-town-12590072


    As I said, trouble ahead
    That'd be why SF are leading the polls then
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,354
    Teeny bit of Cliff Richard is the British Elvis vibe


This discussion has been closed.