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Our best days are still to come? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 28 in General
imageOur best days are still to come? – politicalbetting.com

Remember Laura Norder? A perennial favourite of Tory conferences – with Home Secretaries vowing to support the police and be tough on criminals. Even Blair joined in with his “tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime” slogan. That was then. Now it is the ECHR, lefty lawyers and other bleeding heart liberals in the government’s sights for, it is said, undermining the fight for justice and the rights of true born Britons to sleep easy in their beds. (This – or something like it – will be the template for Braverman’s speeches as Home Secretary.) Even Sunak has joined in with desperate attacks, not just on lefty lawyers but activist ones.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,307
    Betfair next prime minister
    1.08 Liz Truss 93%
    13 Rishi Sunak 8%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.07 Liz Truss 93%
    13.5 Rishi Sunak 7%
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Punchier at 1/3 the length, and leading with the Bar strike.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,146
    Great piece, Cyclefree. Makes grim reading though.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,307
    A header for the ages.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,425
    Leon said:

    Re the unsayable IQ thing. It is unsayable because only someone intent on committing career suicide would mention it on a public forum in their own name. Despite it being a scientific fact (however uncomfortable)

    That’s a big difference from, say, 5 years ago where you could say it and expect a huge row but you wouldn’t get sacked or cancelled. Now it is just too controversial and unacceptable

    Yet the science remains the same

    Hang on:

    IQ is different between individuals. But even there, it is not only genetics that determine your score.

    Let me give you a different example. Height.

    Diffferent countries have different average heights. The Dutch are currently the world's tallest, I believe. (Albeit they stopped getting taller in - you guessed it - around 1980.)

    Japanese men were just 5'2 at 17 in 1900, and yet are 5'10 on average now.

    Different people in the UK get different quality of nutrition, both in the womb, and in early childhood.

    And that affects their height. Someone born into a poor household in the UK is likely to end up dramatically shorter than one born into a richer one.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,628
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Re the unsayable IQ thing. It is unsayable because only someone intent on committing career suicide would mention it on a public forum in their own name. Despite it being a scientific fact (however uncomfortable)

    That’s a big difference from, say, 5 years ago where you could say it and expect a huge row but you wouldn’t get sacked or cancelled. Now it is just too controversial and unacceptable

    Yet the science remains the same

    Hang on:

    IQ is different between individuals. But even there, it is not only genetics that determine your score.

    Let me give you a different example. Height.

    Diffferent countries have different average heights. The Dutch are currently the world's tallest, I believe. (Albeit they stopped getting taller in - you guessed it - around 1980.)

    Japanese men were just 5'2 at 17 in 1900, and yet are 5'10 on average now.

    Different people in the UK get different quality of nutrition, both in the womb, and in early childhood.

    And that affects their height. Someone born into a poor household in the UK is likely to end up dramatically shorter than one born into a richer one.

    And I argued against any of this…. When?

  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,628
    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,895
    So carrying on from the previous thread with @HYUFD.

    Only joking.

    Loved the irony from others at the end of the last thread, but it will be lost on him.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,381
    Tories, innit. Private wealth, public squalor. The rich man in his castle, the poor man at the gate. This is what they believe in. And most of the public don't care enough to work out that it's not chicks with dicks or lefty lawyers to blame for nothing working anymore.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,522
    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    It was EU membership, and too many lefty communist minded governments, and too many woke judges who wont deport ANYONE, holding us back Leon.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,387
    What a brilliant article.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,778
    Variations in countries' dispersions of IQ scores are probably as meaningful and consequential as variations in averages.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 7,895
    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    I love the way that the conductor uses a stop watch when leaving the station rather than a calender.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,387
    IQ tests are insufferably boring. I could not ever get past the first couple of questions without losing the will to live. I am reconciled to having a low IQ as a result. I am not sure it matters in any way whatsoever.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,971
    Latvia votes on October 1st.

    The country takes multi=party politics to a new level with no less than 19 parties featuring in the latest Factum opinion poll.

    I'll try to make it simple - the current 4 party coalition will probably be re-elected but there will be big shifts within the parties. The New Unity Party of Prime Minister Krisjanis Karins is up 14 points from the last election and from being the lowest ranked of the governing parties is now the highest.

    The National Alliance is down 0.2% but still around 11% - the centrist Development/For! is down three points from 12 to 8.8 but the biggest losers have been the Conservatives who have dropped from 13.6% to 5.1% and may drop out the Saeima (threshold 5%). The coalition got 43.1% last time and now have 45.4% so as long as the Conservatives get back there shouldn't be a problem.

    The opposition has fragmented with Harmony (the social democratic party) having fallen from 19.8% to 9.2%. The Union of Greens and Farmers is on 8.6% (-1.3) while the United List (some of whom split from the Farmers) is up from 4.1% to 8.4%.

    The Progressives missed out last time with 2.6% but are now on 7.5% while the centrist For Stability, a new party is on 6.6%. Latvia First, another new group, is on 4.8% so would probably miss out.

    IF the Conservatives fail to get back, I just wonder if there will be enough in the opposition to offer an alternative coalition but I can't see it currently.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,971
    IshmaelZ said:

    Punchier at 1/3 the length, and leading with the Bar strike.

    Why don't you write something and contribute ?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 37,387

    Tories, innit. Private wealth, public squalor. The rich man in his castle, the poor man at the gate. This is what they believe in. And most of the public don't care enough to work out that it's not chicks with dicks or lefty lawyers to blame for nothing working anymore.

    The new Tory vision does seem to be the US - by far the best country in the world in which to be rich, not so great for the rest. The challenge they have is that the UK is very much a European country.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,301
    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    Mass internet outages in Pakistan which is currently on the verge of doing a Sri Lanka. Nuclear state. Should be fine.......
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,381
    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because the government put money into it starting in the late 1970s instead of wasting time and money privatising it? We could have used the north sea oil revenues to fund the renewal of our infrastructure in the 1980s, instead we blew it on tax cuts and unemployment benefit. Now we are struggling to build the stuff we need at sky high construction costs and land values.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,843
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Re the unsayable IQ thing. It is unsayable because only someone intent on committing career suicide would mention it on a public forum in their own name. Despite it being a scientific fact (however uncomfortable)

    That’s a big difference from, say, 5 years ago where you could say it and expect a huge row but you wouldn’t get sacked or cancelled. Now it is just too controversial and unacceptable

    Yet the science remains the same

    Hang on:

    IQ is different between individuals. But even there, it is not only genetics that determine your score.

    Let me give you a different example. Height.

    Diffferent countries have different average heights. The Dutch are currently the world's tallest, I believe. (Albeit they stopped getting taller in - you guessed it - around 1980.)

    Japanese men were just 5'2 at 17 in 1900, and yet are 5'10 on average now.

    Different people in the UK get different quality of nutrition, both in the womb, and in early childhood.

    And that affects their height. Someone born into a poor household in the UK is likely to end up dramatically shorter than one born into a richer one.

    An interesting way to recruit staff would be to ask how fast they can run.

    Too fast = no chance.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 239
    Powerful and effective header, @Cyclefree . And, unlike the Tory blustering, big on factual backup
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,425

    Mass internet outages in Pakistan which is currently on the verge of doing a Sri Lanka. Nuclear state. Should be fine.......

    Pakistan has been very badly impacted by rising gas prices.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,307
    edited August 22
    Even Theresa May getting outdone on law and order by Jeremy Corbyn in the 2017 campaign, which featured not one but two terrorist outrages to concentrate the electorate's minds, led to little more than Boris pledging to recruit more coppers, after Cameron and May had axed so many.

    Courts continued to close. Prison places were lost but hey, we had the diversion of a ministerial spat over whether prisoners could read books. Dangerous things, books.

    Something @Cyclefree does not mention is the high arrest and charge rate for the recent flurry of London murders, but really that is another sign of the breakdown of law and order because murderers, like looters at the other end of the scale, are not deterred by cctv cameras because their experience from years of low-level criminality is there are no visible consequences — they see their peers arrested and quickly released back onto the streets on bail because their case can't be heard for two years.

    Nothing of interest in the Tory leadership race, sadly.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,522
    stodge said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Punchier at 1/3 the length, and leading with the Bar strike.

    Why don't you write something and contribute ?
    If IshmaelZ was in a Fairy Tale, you’d do wise to keep him locked in a jar.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,628

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.

    Possibly. The Italians have maybe kept a shred of their genetic muscle memory of public works inherited from the romans

    I saw the Roman Forum today. In Rome. Never bothered to check it out close up before. Some of that shit is on a scale which is stupefying even to a 21st century boy

    I also saw this. An original Roman bronze door with a lock that STILL WORKS






  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,965
    Good article Cyclefree.

    The Tories are turning this country into a latrine.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    This article conflates too many issues.

    Voters hear about lawyers chiefly when they are picking the Rwanda flights clean, right down to the very last illegal immigrant. On voters money. Or chasing army veterans through the courts decades after conflicts have ended. On voters money. These practices encapsulate for many how the the state ignores the priorities of ordinary people in favour of an elite with a completely different agenda.

    The lawyers are so arrogant and detached they would never deign to actually make their case for themselves to ordinary people. They think its a waste of time to explain how they do so much more besides pulling immigrants off flights.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,094
    I demand to see Spitting Image's Truss puppet.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    rcs1000 said:

    Mass internet outages in Pakistan which is currently on the verge of doing a Sri Lanka. Nuclear state. Should be fine.......

    Pakistan has been very badly impacted by rising gas prices.
    It also has an Imran Khan versus not Imran Khan issue
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,778
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.

    Possibly. The Italians have maybe kept a shred of their genetic muscle memory of public works inherited from the romans

    I saw the Roman Forum today. In Rome. Never bothered to check it out close up before. Some of that shit is on a scale which is stupefying even to a 21st century boy

    I also saw this. An original Roman bronze door with a lock that STILL WORKS

    Think of their aqueducts more than 2 millennia ago. Doesn't seem such a big step from that to modern railways.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,971

    Even Theresa May getting outdone on law and order by Jeremy Corbyn in the 2017 campaign, which featured not one but two terrorist outrages to concentrate the electorate's minds, led to little more than Boris pledging to recruit more coppers, after Cameron and May had axed so many.

    Courts continued to close. Prison places were lost but hey, we had the diversion of a ministerial spat over whether prisoners could read books. Dangerous things, books.

    Something @Cyclefree does not mention is the high arrest and charge rate for the recent flurry of London murders, but really that is another sign of the breakdown of law and order because murderers, like looters at the other end of the scale, are not deterred by cctv cameras because their experience from years of low-level criminality is there are no visible consequences — they see their peers arrested and quickly released back onto the streets on bail because their case can't be heard for two years.

    There's crime and there's punishment. There's law and there's order. It's tempting to look at it as one broad brush issue but I think it more nuanced than that.

    All we keep hearing especially from the Right is "more Police, more Police" but it was the Right, aided and abetted I'm ashamed to say by the LDs in the Coalition, who presided over the sale of operational Police stations. The impact of the loss of those stations on basic policing has been considerable in terms of time lost escorting prisoners further (and in my part of the world often having to wait for translators).

    The other loss has been public confidence in the Police - they are seen as a remote and unaccountable group especially in parts of London. Low level petty crime goes not only unreported but largely uninvestigated. Yes, the big crimes, the stabbings, the murders, do fortunately often see a successful outcome in terms of bringing a perpetrator to justice but that's not crime to most people.

    Crime for many is the low level, the petty, the phone theft, the pickpocketing, the bag snatch, the fare evasion, the shoplifting but it's still living without respect for those around you.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,425
    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.

    Possibly. The Italians have maybe kept a shred of their genetic muscle memory of public works inherited from the romans

    I saw the Roman Forum today. In Rome. Never bothered to check it out close up before. Some of that shit is on a scale which is stupefying even to a 21st century boy

    I also saw this. An original Roman bronze door with a lock that STILL WORKS

    Think of their aqueducts more than 2 millennia ago. Doesn't seem such a big step from that to modern railways.
    I was in Rome six weeks ago. I learned that two of the Roman aqueducts are still in use today providing Rome with water.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,307

    Tories, innit. Private wealth, public squalor. The rich man in his castle, the poor man at the gate. This is what they believe in. And most of the public don't care enough to work out that it's not chicks with dicks or lefty lawyers to blame for nothing working anymore.

    The new Tory vision does seem to be the US - by far the best country in the world in which to be rich, not so great for the rest. The challenge they have is that the UK is very much a European country.

    New Labour was very keen on America and Americanisation. Supreme Court, half the kids at university, privatisation of NHS and other public services (albeit that Brown managed to rein in Blair's worst, or best, instincts); relaxed about the filthy rich; military adventurism.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    stodge said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Punchier at 1/3 the length, and leading with the Bar strike.

    Why don't you write something and contribute ?
    “You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables.”

    ― Samuel Johnson

    (except I can).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.

    Possibly. The Italians have maybe kept a shred of their genetic muscle memory of public works inherited from the romans

    I saw the Roman Forum today. In Rome. Never bothered to check it out close up before. Some of that shit is on a scale which is stupefying even to a 21st century boy

    I also saw this. An original Roman bronze door with a lock that STILL WORKS

    Think of their aqueducts more than 2 millennia ago. Doesn't seem such a big step from that to modern railways.
    I was in Rome six weeks ago. I learned that two of the Roman aqueducts are still in use today providing Rome with water.
    OK but apart from that
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,778
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.

    Possibly. The Italians have maybe kept a shred of their genetic muscle memory of public works inherited from the romans

    I saw the Roman Forum today. In Rome. Never bothered to check it out close up before. Some of that shit is on a scale which is stupefying even to a 21st century boy

    I also saw this. An original Roman bronze door with a lock that STILL WORKS

    Think of their aqueducts more than 2 millennia ago. Doesn't seem such a big step from that to modern railways.
    I was in Rome six weeks ago. I learned that two of the Roman aqueducts are still in use today providing Rome with water.
    What did the Romans ever do for the Romans, eh?

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 2,697
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.

    Possibly. The Italians have maybe kept a shred of their genetic muscle memory of public works inherited from the romans

    I saw the Roman Forum today. In Rome. Never bothered to check it out close up before. Some of that shit is on a scale which is stupefying even to a 21st century boy

    I also saw this. An original Roman bronze door with a lock that STILL WORKS

    Think of their aqueducts more than 2 millennia ago. Doesn't seem such a big step from that to modern railways.
    I was in Rome six weeks ago. I learned that two of the Roman aqueducts are still in use today providing Rome with water.
    Rome, Venice and Yosemite are all places that surpassed their reputations for me. All amazing.

    San Francisco was the opposite. Would be good if someone wrote an article "Obvious travel that is just as good as you think it will be".
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    edited August 22
    A great header Cyclefree, but one quibble:

    'all these complaints – lack of funding, effective cuts in pay, a lack of resources, demonisation of those raising concerns, a refusal to implement recommendations, even to meet – could be made, justifiably, by many others: medical professionals, for instance, or teachers or social care workers or many others providing vital services.'

    What do you mean by 'could be?' We ARE making these complaints. (I say we - it only applies to me for nine more days because I got so fed up with them.)

    Incidentally the individual responsible for many of the issues at Courts and Probation you highlight was 'failed upwards' and is now Permanent Secretary at - the DfE.

    Says it all, I fear.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,836
    Remarkable and quite shocking header.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,301
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.

    Possibly. The Italians have maybe kept a shred of their genetic muscle memory of public works inherited from the romans

    I saw the Roman Forum today. In Rome. Never bothered to check it out close up before. Some of that shit is on a scale which is stupefying even to a 21st century boy

    I also saw this. An original Roman bronze door with a lock that STILL WORKS


    Yep. The Pantheon is a bleedin' miracle.

    Last time we were there I wanted to pinch one of those wafer shaped Roman bricks that can still occasionally be found lying loose but my partner shamed me into avoiding such desecration.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.

    Possibly. The Italians have maybe kept a shred of their genetic muscle memory of public works inherited from the romans

    I saw the Roman Forum today. In Rome. Never bothered to check it out close up before. Some of that shit is on a scale which is stupefying even to a 21st century boy

    I also saw this. An original Roman bronze door with a lock that STILL WORKS

    Think of their aqueducts more than 2 millennia ago. Doesn't seem such a big step from that to modern railways.
    I was in Rome six weeks ago. I learned that two of the Roman aqueducts are still in use today providing Rome with water.
    OK but apart from that
    The Via Cloaca, the world's oldest sewer?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,551
    edited August 22
    murali_s said:

    Good article Cyclefree.

    The Tories are turning this country into a latrine.

    Sad but true . And we’ve now got two years of the Maggie clone being an ERG puppet , add onto that we’re likely to see some horrible divisive politics with no 10 trying to deflect from the economic disaster by picking constant fights with the EU and scapegoating different sections of society .

    I’ve never been more depressed at where the UK is going .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    stodge said:

    Even Theresa May getting outdone on law and order by Jeremy Corbyn in the 2017 campaign, which featured not one but two terrorist outrages to concentrate the electorate's minds, led to little more than Boris pledging to recruit more coppers, after Cameron and May had axed so many.

    Courts continued to close. Prison places were lost but hey, we had the diversion of a ministerial spat over whether prisoners could read books. Dangerous things, books.

    Something @Cyclefree does not mention is the high arrest and charge rate for the recent flurry of London murders, but really that is another sign of the breakdown of law and order because murderers, like looters at the other end of the scale, are not deterred by cctv cameras because their experience from years of low-level criminality is there are no visible consequences — they see their peers arrested and quickly released back onto the streets on bail because their case can't be heard for two years.

    There's crime and there's punishment. There's law and there's order. It's tempting to look at it as one broad brush issue but I think it more nuanced than that.

    All we keep hearing especially from the Right is "more Police, more Police" but it was the Right, aided and abetted I'm ashamed to say by the LDs in the Coalition, who presided over the sale of operational Police stations. The impact of the loss of those stations on basic policing has been considerable in terms of time lost escorting prisoners further (and in my part of the world often having to wait for translators).

    The other loss has been public confidence in the Police - they are seen as a remote and unaccountable group especially in parts of London. Low level petty crime goes not only unreported but largely uninvestigated. Yes, the big crimes, the stabbings, the murders, do fortunately often see a successful outcome in terms of bringing a perpetrator to justice but that's not crime to most people.

    Crime for many is the low level, the petty, the phone theft, the pickpocketing, the bag snatch, the fare evasion, the shoplifting but it's still living without respect for those around you.
    The fucking lunatics riding scramble bikes on one wheel at 40mph up and down the pavements...
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 1,314
    Italy’s Freciarossa trains have four classes: standard, premium, business, and executive (pictured). Has anyone seen more classes on a single train? India maybe?


  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,527
    FPT
    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If you want to save the Union you should vote Labour. The only party that will actually level up the country

    What’s the point of “saving” an involuntary union? Even thickos must understand that a forced marriage is unsustainable.

    If one party is holding a gun, it’s just rape.
    It is not a forced marriage, Scots voted 55% to stay in the Union in the once in a generation 2014 referendum and even now polls are not vastly different.

    Nationalists of course never accepted the result but Truss will just ignore them as long as she is PM and refuse indyref2
    Of course she will, young HY! Hmmm.... How well do you know Miss Trust? Do you really know her inner thoughts?
    Truss made clear she would never allow indyref2 on her watch as PM
    Don't you think that by disallowing SIndyRef2 Ms Truss not only pisses off rabid Scots Nats to save the Union, she makes matters worse in the end by pissing off the "don't knows" too, and thus guarantees she loses the Union?
    No, she passes off Nats which is fine as they just want indyrefs forever until they get independence.

    The Don't Knows would be Starmer's problem not Truss' if he allowed indyref2 as Truss has made clear she will not allow indyref2 as PM
    Are you comfortable with the dissolution of the Union so long as it doesn't happen on the Conservatives watch?
    No but as we Tories will never allow indyref2 it is not an issue for us.

    If Starmer got in reliant on the SNP and allowed indyref2 it would be up to him to win it with devomax etc. If he won it great, if he lost it then the Tories would switch to hard English Nationalism to take as tough a line as possible with the SNP in Scexit talks
    Until Prime Minister HYUFD takes office no one will have done more to facilitate the break up of the Union than Boris Johnson. Given the chance, you will give him a run for his money.
    Little or no effort has been made by the government or by any of the Unionist parties to strengthen the union. Seriously, who gives a toss about regional parliaments in England? What needs to happen is CULTURAL. And not some idiotic waving of the Union flag either. Subsidise cultural festivals in parts of Britain that feature artists, musicians, etc. from other parts. Learn from the Edinburgh Festival, the Eisteddfod, etc. Let young people have a good time. Make the SNP look like the misery gut xenophobic politician moneyheads that they are.
    Yes I am sure a Union Jack festooned version of the Edinburgh Festival or Glastonbury featuring young Unionists will turn even the hardest of Nats to diehard Yoons
    You should read what I wrote again.

    I'm not talking about winning over diehard Nats, or politics, or waving the Union flag. I thought I'd made all of those points clear. I am talking about improving and strengthening the Union though. You do realise it is possible to hold for example a Scottish-themed cultural event outside of Scotland? And furthermore, that Scotland has voted numerous times in favour of the Union? The Union has to improve or die. And perhaps if you weren't so politically-minded you might realise that that's fundamentally a cultural issue. I am in favour of the Union improving, without the focus being on only doing the minimum necessary to win another referendum if one is held.

    The main message of the SNP nasties is that "English people don't let you do stuff". Pull the damned rug from under the SNP's feet. Win even more of the middle ground.
    I agree with you, and your idea of cultural celebrations is cute. Actually, one thing Boris Johnson started out doing very well was social media when there was a cultural festival being celebrated. He conveyed sincere enthusiasm well.

    'Love bombing' is a well-established political tactic and I struggle to see why that isn't the strategy currently adopted by the UK Government vis-à-vis Scotland, given that it is certain that the Union will at some point be challenged at the ballot box again. Instead of harrumphing on about how Scottish buildings must display the UJ, can you imagine if UKG mandated that public buildings in England must display the Saltire? How different would the impact of that be North of the border?

    Added to some of the constitutional changes I suggested yesterday, and given a little time, I don't think Indy 2 would even be close.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,778
    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    9h
    I know nothing about Dugina's death, so have no idea who did it. If the result, however, is Putin using it to crack down more on dissent, but not mobilize Russian society for war, that would logically point to an internal Russian involvement.
    Aug 22, 2022 · 9:45 AM UTC

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    5h
    Final comment--if in the end Putin does nothing--neither uses this as an opportunity to crack down or to mobilize/escalate--that would logically point to the fact that he really doesnt know what to do and that there are elements outside of his control in Russia that did this.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    carnforth said:

    Italy’s Freciarossa trains have four classes: standard, premium, business, and executive (pictured). Has anyone seen more classes on a single train? India maybe?


    Do we include school trips?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,954
    carnforth said:

    Italy’s Freciarossa trains have four classes: standard, premium, business, and executive (pictured). Has anyone seen more classes on a single train? India maybe?


    I've been on Austrian trains where the standard class looks more luxurious than that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,134
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Genetics innit.

    Possibly. The Italians have maybe kept a shred of their genetic muscle memory of public works inherited from the romans

    I saw the Roman Forum today. In Rome. Never bothered to check it out close up before. Some of that shit is on a scale which is stupefying even to a 21st century boy

    I also saw this. An original Roman bronze door with a lock that STILL WORKS

    Think of their aqueducts more than 2 millennia ago. Doesn't seem such a big step from that to modern railways.
    I was in Rome six weeks ago. I learned that two of the Roman aqueducts are still in use today providing Rome with water.
    Yeah, but what have the Romans ever done for us?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,425

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If you want to save the Union you should vote Labour. The only party that will actually level up the country

    What’s the point of “saving” an involuntary union? Even thickos must understand that a forced marriage is unsustainable.

    If one party is holding a gun, it’s just rape.
    It is not a forced marriage, Scots voted 55% to stay in the Union in the once in a generation 2014 referendum and even now polls are not vastly different.

    Nationalists of course never accepted the result but Truss will just ignore them as long as she is PM and refuse indyref2
    Of course she will, young HY! Hmmm.... How well do you know Miss Trust? Do you really know her inner thoughts?
    Truss made clear she would never allow indyref2 on her watch as PM
    Don't you think that by disallowing SIndyRef2 Ms Truss not only pisses off rabid Scots Nats to save the Union, she makes matters worse in the end by pissing off the "don't knows" too, and thus guarantees she loses the Union?
    No, she passes off Nats which is fine as they just want indyrefs forever until they get independence.

    The Don't Knows would be Starmer's problem not Truss' if he allowed indyref2 as Truss has made clear she will not allow indyref2 as PM
    Are you comfortable with the dissolution of the Union so long as it doesn't happen on the Conservatives watch?
    No but as we Tories will never allow indyref2 it is not an issue for us.

    If Starmer got in reliant on the SNP and allowed indyref2 it would be up to him to win it with devomax etc. If he won it great, if he lost it then the Tories would switch to hard English Nationalism to take as tough a line as possible with the SNP in Scexit talks
    Until Prime Minister HYUFD takes office no one will have done more to facilitate the break up of the Union than Boris Johnson. Given the chance, you will give him a run for his money.
    Little or no effort has been made by the government or by any of the Unionist parties to strengthen the union. Seriously, who gives a toss about regional parliaments in England? What needs to happen is CULTURAL. And not some idiotic waving of the Union flag either. Subsidise cultural festivals in parts of Britain that feature artists, musicians, etc. from other parts. Learn from the Edinburgh Festival, the Eisteddfod, etc. Let young people have a good time. Make the SNP look like the misery gut xenophobic politician moneyheads that they are.
    Yes I am sure a Union Jack festooned version of the Edinburgh Festival or Glastonbury featuring young Unionists will turn even the hardest of Nats to diehard Yoons
    You should read what I wrote again.

    I'm not talking about winning over diehard Nats, or politics, or waving the Union flag. I thought I'd made all of those points clear. I am talking about improving and strengthening the Union though. You do realise it is possible to hold for example a Scottish-themed cultural event outside of Scotland? And furthermore, that Scotland has voted numerous times in favour of the Union? The Union has to improve or die. And perhaps if you weren't so politically-minded you might realise that that's fundamentally a cultural issue. I am in favour of the Union improving, without the focus being on only doing the minimum necessary to win another referendum if one is held.

    The main message of the SNP nasties is that "English people don't let you do stuff". Pull the damned rug from under the SNP's feet. Win even more of the middle ground.
    I agree with you, and your idea of cultural celebrations is cute. Actually, one thing Boris Johnson started out doing very well was social media when there was a cultural festival being celebrated. He conveyed sincere enthusiasm well.

    'Love bombing' is a well-established political tactic and I struggle to see why that isn't the strategy currently adopted by the UK Government vis-à-vis Scotland, given that it is certain that the Union will at some point be challenged at the ballot box again. Instead of harrumphing on about how Scottish buildings must display the UJ, can you imagine if UKG mandated that public buildings in England must display the Saltire? How different would the impact of that be North of the border?

    Added to some of the constitutional changes I suggested yesterday, and given a little time, I don't think Indy 2 would even be close.
    @HYUFD has suggested actual bombing, but that may not be what you have in mind.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If you want to save the Union you should vote Labour. The only party that will actually level up the country

    What’s the point of “saving” an involuntary union? Even thickos must understand that a forced marriage is unsustainable.

    If one party is holding a gun, it’s just rape.
    It is not a forced marriage, Scots voted 55% to stay in the Union in the once in a generation 2014 referendum and even now polls are not vastly different.

    Nationalists of course never accepted the result but Truss will just ignore them as long as she is PM and refuse indyref2
    Of course she will, young HY! Hmmm.... How well do you know Miss Trust? Do you really know her inner thoughts?
    Truss made clear she would never allow indyref2 on her watch as PM
    Don't you think that by disallowing SIndyRef2 Ms Truss not only pisses off rabid Scots Nats to save the Union, she makes matters worse in the end by pissing off the "don't knows" too, and thus guarantees she loses the Union?
    No, she passes off Nats which is fine as they just want indyrefs forever until they get independence.

    The Don't Knows would be Starmer's problem not Truss' if he allowed indyref2 as Truss has made clear she will not allow indyref2 as PM
    Are you comfortable with the dissolution of the Union so long as it doesn't happen on the Conservatives watch?
    No but as we Tories will never allow indyref2 it is not an issue for us.

    If Starmer got in reliant on the SNP and allowed indyref2 it would be up to him to win it with devomax etc. If he won it great, if he lost it then the Tories would switch to hard English Nationalism to take as tough a line as possible with the SNP in Scexit talks
    Until Prime Minister HYUFD takes office no one will have done more to facilitate the break up of the Union than Boris Johnson. Given the chance, you will give him a run for his money.
    Little or no effort has been made by the government or by any of the Unionist parties to strengthen the union. Seriously, who gives a toss about regional parliaments in England? What needs to happen is CULTURAL. And not some idiotic waving of the Union flag either. Subsidise cultural festivals in parts of Britain that feature artists, musicians, etc. from other parts. Learn from the Edinburgh Festival, the Eisteddfod, etc. Let young people have a good time. Make the SNP look like the misery gut xenophobic politician moneyheads that they are.
    Yes I am sure a Union Jack festooned version of the Edinburgh Festival or Glastonbury featuring young Unionists will turn even the hardest of Nats to diehard Yoons
    You should read what I wrote again.

    I'm not talking about winning over diehard Nats, or politics, or waving the Union flag. I thought I'd made all of those points clear. I am talking about improving and strengthening the Union though. You do realise it is possible to hold for example a Scottish-themed cultural event outside of Scotland? And furthermore, that Scotland has voted numerous times in favour of the Union? The Union has to improve or die. And perhaps if you weren't so politically-minded you might realise that that's fundamentally a cultural issue. I am in favour of the Union improving, without the focus being on only doing the minimum necessary to win another referendum if one is held.

    The main message of the SNP nasties is that "English people don't let you do stuff". Pull the damned rug from under the SNP's feet. Win even more of the middle ground.
    I agree with you, and your idea of cultural celebrations is cute. Actually, one thing Boris Johnson started out doing very well was social media when there was a cultural festival being celebrated. He conveyed sincere enthusiasm well.

    'Love bombing' is a well-established political tactic and I struggle to see why that isn't the strategy currently adopted by the UK Government vis-à-vis Scotland, given that it is certain that the Union will at some point be challenged at the ballot box again. Instead of harrumphing on about how Scottish buildings must display the UJ, can you imagine if UKG mandated that public buildings in England must display the Saltire? How different would the impact of that be North of the border?

    Added to some of the constitutional changes I suggested yesterday, and given a little time, I don't think Indy 2 would even be close.
    @HYUFD has suggested actual bombing, but that may not be what you have in mind.
    Bombing? That's not correct. Tanks, for nothing.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,527
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If you want to save the Union you should vote Labour. The only party that will actually level up the country

    What’s the point of “saving” an involuntary union? Even thickos must understand that a forced marriage is unsustainable.

    If one party is holding a gun, it’s just rape.
    It is not a forced marriage, Scots voted 55% to stay in the Union in the once in a generation 2014 referendum and even now polls are not vastly different.

    Nationalists of course never accepted the result but Truss will just ignore them as long as she is PM and refuse indyref2
    Of course she will, young HY! Hmmm.... How well do you know Miss Trust? Do you really know her inner thoughts?
    Truss made clear she would never allow indyref2 on her watch as PM
    Don't you think that by disallowing SIndyRef2 Ms Truss not only pisses off rabid Scots Nats to save the Union, she makes matters worse in the end by pissing off the "don't knows" too, and thus guarantees she loses the Union?
    No, she passes off Nats which is fine as they just want indyrefs forever until they get independence.

    The Don't Knows would be Starmer's problem not Truss' if he allowed indyref2 as Truss has made clear she will not allow indyref2 as PM
    Are you comfortable with the dissolution of the Union so long as it doesn't happen on the Conservatives watch?
    No but as we Tories will never allow indyref2 it is not an issue for us.

    If Starmer got in reliant on the SNP and allowed indyref2 it would be up to him to win it with devomax etc. If he won it great, if he lost it then the Tories would switch to hard English Nationalism to take as tough a line as possible with the SNP in Scexit talks
    Until Prime Minister HYUFD takes office no one will have done more to facilitate the break up of the Union than Boris Johnson. Given the chance, you will give him a run for his money.
    Little or no effort has been made by the government or by any of the Unionist parties to strengthen the union. Seriously, who gives a toss about regional parliaments in England? What needs to happen is CULTURAL. And not some idiotic waving of the Union flag either. Subsidise cultural festivals in parts of Britain that feature artists, musicians, etc. from other parts. Learn from the Edinburgh Festival, the Eisteddfod, etc. Let young people have a good time. Make the SNP look like the misery gut xenophobic politician moneyheads that they are.
    Yes I am sure a Union Jack festooned version of the Edinburgh Festival or Glastonbury featuring young Unionists will turn even the hardest of Nats to diehard Yoons
    You should read what I wrote again.

    I'm not talking about winning over diehard Nats, or politics, or waving the Union flag. I thought I'd made all of those points clear. I am talking about improving and strengthening the Union though. You do realise it is possible to hold for example a Scottish-themed cultural event outside of Scotland? And furthermore, that Scotland has voted numerous times in favour of the Union? The Union has to improve or die. And perhaps if you weren't so politically-minded you might realise that that's fundamentally a cultural issue. I am in favour of the Union improving, without the focus being on only doing the minimum necessary to win another referendum if one is held.

    The main message of the SNP nasties is that "English people don't let you do stuff". Pull the damned rug from under the SNP's feet. Win even more of the middle ground.
    I agree with you, and your idea of cultural celebrations is cute. Actually, one thing Boris Johnson started out doing very well was social media when there was a cultural festival being celebrated. He conveyed sincere enthusiasm well.

    'Love bombing' is a well-established political tactic and I struggle to see why that isn't the strategy currently adopted by the UK Government vis-à-vis Scotland, given that it is certain that the Union will at some point be challenged at the ballot box again. Instead of harrumphing on about how Scottish buildings must display the UJ, can you imagine if UKG mandated that public buildings in England must display the Saltire? How different would the impact of that be North of the border?

    Added to some of the constitutional changes I suggested yesterday, and given a little time, I don't think Indy 2 would even be close.
    @HYUFD has suggested actual bombing, but that may not be what you have in mind.
    I think a charm offensive will work better than a military offensive.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,134

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Non sequitur.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT

    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    Dynamo said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    If you want to save the Union you should vote Labour. The only party that will actually level up the country

    What’s the point of “saving” an involuntary union? Even thickos must understand that a forced marriage is unsustainable.

    If one party is holding a gun, it’s just rape.
    It is not a forced marriage, Scots voted 55% to stay in the Union in the once in a generation 2014 referendum and even now polls are not vastly different.

    Nationalists of course never accepted the result but Truss will just ignore them as long as she is PM and refuse indyref2
    Of course she will, young HY! Hmmm.... How well do you know Miss Trust? Do you really know her inner thoughts?
    Truss made clear she would never allow indyref2 on her watch as PM
    Don't you think that by disallowing SIndyRef2 Ms Truss not only pisses off rabid Scots Nats to save the Union, she makes matters worse in the end by pissing off the "don't knows" too, and thus guarantees she loses the Union?
    No, she passes off Nats which is fine as they just want indyrefs forever until they get independence.

    The Don't Knows would be Starmer's problem not Truss' if he allowed indyref2 as Truss has made clear she will not allow indyref2 as PM
    Are you comfortable with the dissolution of the Union so long as it doesn't happen on the Conservatives watch?
    No but as we Tories will never allow indyref2 it is not an issue for us.

    If Starmer got in reliant on the SNP and allowed indyref2 it would be up to him to win it with devomax etc. If he won it great, if he lost it then the Tories would switch to hard English Nationalism to take as tough a line as possible with the SNP in Scexit talks
    Until Prime Minister HYUFD takes office no one will have done more to facilitate the break up of the Union than Boris Johnson. Given the chance, you will give him a run for his money.
    Little or no effort has been made by the government or by any of the Unionist parties to strengthen the union. Seriously, who gives a toss about regional parliaments in England? What needs to happen is CULTURAL. And not some idiotic waving of the Union flag either. Subsidise cultural festivals in parts of Britain that feature artists, musicians, etc. from other parts. Learn from the Edinburgh Festival, the Eisteddfod, etc. Let young people have a good time. Make the SNP look like the misery gut xenophobic politician moneyheads that they are.
    Yes I am sure a Union Jack festooned version of the Edinburgh Festival or Glastonbury featuring young Unionists will turn even the hardest of Nats to diehard Yoons
    You should read what I wrote again.

    I'm not talking about winning over diehard Nats, or politics, or waving the Union flag. I thought I'd made all of those points clear. I am talking about improving and strengthening the Union though. You do realise it is possible to hold for example a Scottish-themed cultural event outside of Scotland? And furthermore, that Scotland has voted numerous times in favour of the Union? The Union has to improve or die. And perhaps if you weren't so politically-minded you might realise that that's fundamentally a cultural issue. I am in favour of the Union improving, without the focus being on only doing the minimum necessary to win another referendum if one is held.

    The main message of the SNP nasties is that "English people don't let you do stuff". Pull the damned rug from under the SNP's feet. Win even more of the middle ground.
    I agree with you, and your idea of cultural celebrations is cute. Actually, one thing Boris Johnson started out doing very well was social media when there was a cultural festival being celebrated. He conveyed sincere enthusiasm well.

    'Love bombing' is a well-established political tactic and I struggle to see why that isn't the strategy currently adopted by the UK Government vis-à-vis Scotland, given that it is certain that the Union will at some point be challenged at the ballot box again. Instead of harrumphing on about how Scottish buildings must display the UJ, can you imagine if UKG mandated that public buildings in England must display the Saltire? How different would the impact of that be North of the border?

    Added to some of the constitutional changes I suggested yesterday, and given a little time, I don't think Indy 2 would even be close.
    @HYUFD has suggested actual bombing, but that may not be what you have in mind.
    I think a charm offensive will work better than a military offensive.
    I advise against Sudeten moves.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,134
    On topic, I agree.

    Crime & justice is a disgrace in this country now, and woefully underfunded.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,746

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Yes, because Labour is known for the efficiency and punctuality of its public sector projects. The NHS computer and the National ID card system went wonderfully until the Tories ruined them.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    nico679 said:

    murali_s said:

    Good article Cyclefree.

    The Tories are turning this country into a latrine.

    Sad but true . And we’ve now got two years of the Maggie clone being an ERG puppet , add onto that we’re likely to see some horrible divisive politics with no 10 trying to deflect from the economic disaster by picking constant fights with the EU and scapegoating different sections of society .

    I’ve never been more depressed at where the UK is going .
    Well you won't have that long to wait. SKS is coming to the rescue, the polls say.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,527
    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    They do seem to be getting it very wrong very often recently.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,569
    edited August 22
    geoffw said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    9h
    I know nothing about Dugina's death, so have no idea who did it. If the result, however, is Putin using it to crack down more on dissent, but not mobilize Russian society for war, that would logically point to an internal Russian involvement.
    Aug 22, 2022 · 9:45 AM UTC

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    5h
    Final comment--if in the end Putin does nothing--neither uses this as an opportunity to crack down or to mobilize/escalate--that would logically point to the fact that he really doesnt know what to do and that there are elements outside of his control in Russia that did this.

    The only people the Tories are lovebombing are selfish and miserable fogies who like to burn fifty pound notes, paid for by the triple lock, in the faces of their own grandchildren, while sneering about avocados and “wops”.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,569

    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    They do seem to be getting it very wrong very often recently.
    “Take back control”.
  • I don't want to sound hyperbolic but this winter is going to be very, very bad for a lot of people.

    I just do not see how Liz Truss does not do something to help.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,569
    edited August 22

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Non sequitur.
    Nope.

    To Tory is to serially underfund infrastructure, among other things.

    Labour have other issues.

    You, Tory voter, are to blame for public squalor.
  • @stodge is a copper?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,307

    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    They do seem to be getting it very wrong very often recently.
    Even Britain's infamous IMF loan in the 1970s was never taken once our economic statistics had been corrected. Nonetheless, John Redwood might need to declare an interest in denigrating the OBR's numbers.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    From the FT article

    Instead, Truss will include tax cuts, the elimination of green levies from energy bills and some targeted support for the vulnerable......

    If thats it, shes already finished. If she doesnt address the cap and businesses energy costs its already over
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,134

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Non sequitur.
    Nope.

    To Tory is to serially underfund infrastructure, among other things.

    Labour have other issues.

    You, Tory voter, are to blame for public squalor.
    The one thing HS2 isn't is underfunded.

    Maybe engage your brain and put down the bottle.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,569
    edited August 22
    Re: Italian trains.

    The Anderson-Nairn thesis is that because the UK never had a “national revolution” a la 1789 or 1848, that the ruling class has no real concept of nation-building and therefore serves the interest of an effete and feeble class of wannabe aristocrats.

    Hence infrastructure is shite and our biggest cities (bar London) are productivity black holes.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,130
    edited August 22
    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Mostly money, but also simply our government not taking the railways seriously. I’ve been told that the Major government drove one of our train manufacturing businesses into bankruptcy in the 90s? They stopped investing in new rolling stock in order to flatter the books before privatisation, which meant the order book dried up.

    Infrastructure is much cheaper if you just get on with the job of building / replacing it at a steady rate, knowing that the work is necessary & therefore why put it off? The most expensive way to do it is to do nothing for a couple of decades & then suddently decide you need the newest whizz-bang thing, then stop again losing all that accumulated expertise in the process. I’ll let you look at the evidence & conclude which approach the UK has taken for yourself.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,527

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Non sequitur.
    Nope.

    To Tory is to serially underfund infrastructure, among other things.

    Labour have other issues.

    You, Tory voter, are to blame for public squalor.
    You OK hun?
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    They do seem to be getting it very wrong very often recently.
    Yeah and based on what? Maybe some are wondering whether OBR forecasts being pitched to reflect HM Treasury priorities.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,425

    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    They do seem to be getting it very wrong very often recently.
    It's not easy being an economic forecaster.

    What will happen in Ukraine? What will happen with Covid in China? Will China's housing market implode?

    Those are just three mega questions that you need to have to have a sensible view on the UK's economic growth, even before we talk about domestic issues.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    From the FT article

    Instead, Truss will include tax cuts, the elimination of green levies from energy bills and some targeted support for the vulnerable......

    If thats it, shes already finished. If she doesnt address the cap and businesses energy costs its already over
    Unless the tax giveaway is going to be much larger than is being trailed....???

    FFS what a gal...!!

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,569

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Non sequitur.
    Nope.

    To Tory is to serially underfund infrastructure, among other things.

    Labour have other issues.

    You, Tory voter, are to blame for public squalor.
    The one thing HS2 isn't is underfunded.

    Maybe engage your brain and put down the bottle.
    Do you seriously believe that UK infrastructure is funded to the same extent as it’s European peers?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,778

    geoffw said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    9h
    I know nothing about Dugina's death, so have no idea who did it. If the result, however, is Putin using it to crack down more on dissent, but not mobilize Russian society for war, that would logically point to an internal Russian involvement.
    Aug 22, 2022 · 9:45 AM UTC

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    5h
    Final comment--if in the end Putin does nothing--neither uses this as an opportunity to crack down or to mobilize/escalate--that would logically point to the fact that he really doesnt know what to do and that there are elements outside of his control in Russia that did this.

    The only people the Tories are lovebombing are selfish and miserable fogies who like to burn fifty pound notes, paid for by the triple lock, in the faces of their own grandchildren, while sneering about avocados and “wops”.
    wtf response?

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,527
    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    They do seem to be getting it very wrong very often recently.
    It's not easy being an economic forecaster.

    What will happen in Ukraine? What will happen with Covid in China? Will China's housing market implode?

    Those are just three mega questions that you need to have to have a sensible view on the UK's economic growth, even before we talk about domestic issues.
    But was their inflation prediction not significantly out before Ukraine? Or am I think of the BOE?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,569
    edited August 22
    Newsflash.
    PB Tories don’t like it up em.
    Bears shit in woods.

    More at ten.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    geoffw said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    9h
    I know nothing about Dugina's death, so have no idea who did it. If the result, however, is Putin using it to crack down more on dissent, but not mobilize Russian society for war, that would logically point to an internal Russian involvement.
    Aug 22, 2022 · 9:45 AM UTC

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    5h
    Final comment--if in the end Putin does nothing--neither uses this as an opportunity to crack down or to mobilize/escalate--that would logically point to the fact that he really doesnt know what to do and that there are elements outside of his control in Russia that did this.

    The only people the Tories are lovebombing are selfish and miserable fogies who like to burn fifty pound notes, paid for by the triple lock, in the faces of their own grandchildren, while sneering about avocados and “wops”.
    You'd be amazed how few 50 notes the triple lock gets you in a winter fuel crisis. You do realise it applies only to the not quite 10,000 a year state pension?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 6,648
    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    From the FT article

    Instead, Truss will include tax cuts, the elimination of green levies from energy bills and some targeted support for the vulnerable......

    If thats it, shes already finished. If she doesnt address the cap and businesses energy costs its already over
    Unless the tax giveaway is going to be much larger than is being trailed....???

    FFS what a gal...!!

    Or the reported 2 year cap freeze being proposed is agreed......
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,569
    edited August 22
    IshmaelZ said:

    geoffw said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    9h
    I know nothing about Dugina's death, so have no idea who did it. If the result, however, is Putin using it to crack down more on dissent, but not mobilize Russian society for war, that would logically point to an internal Russian involvement.
    Aug 22, 2022 · 9:45 AM UTC

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    5h
    Final comment--if in the end Putin does nothing--neither uses this as an opportunity to crack down or to mobilize/escalate--that would logically point to the fact that he really doesnt know what to do and that there are elements outside of his control in Russia that did this.

    The only people the Tories are lovebombing are selfish and miserable fogies who like to burn fifty pound notes, paid for by the triple lock, in the faces of their own grandchildren, while sneering about avocados and “wops”.
    You'd be amazed how few 50 notes the triple lock gets you in a winter fuel crisis. You do realise it applies only to the not quite 10,000 a year state pension?
    Aye, but you need to factor in the capital appreciation from near-empty 5-beds in the suburbs.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,562

    I don't want to sound hyperbolic but this winter is going to be very, very bad for a lot of people.

    I just do not see how Liz Truss does not do something to help.

    She will, but there is an election to win first. You do understand that? I fully expect a lot of action as soon as the new PM is installed.

    Moaning about why hasn’t she done anything yet is pointless.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,522

    I demand to see Spitting Image's Truss puppet.

    Some might say a tad unkind, but there were numerous ways they could do it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5pF39OrZEo

    I would have taken the Mondian cyberman approach.

    Tch. Forty years of trying, and the scripts get no better.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,954
    McDonalds in Nottingham getting looted. There seems to be an uptick in this kind of thing:

    https://www.twitter.com/Antman0704/status/1561744461151064065
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,134

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Non sequitur.
    Nope.

    To Tory is to serially underfund infrastructure, among other things.

    Labour have other issues.

    You, Tory voter, are to blame for public squalor.
    The one thing HS2 isn't is underfunded.

    Maybe engage your brain and put down the bottle.
    Do you seriously believe that UK infrastructure is funded to the same extent as it’s European peers?
    I work in UK infrastructure. It's literally my job. Our infrastructure is world class. We literally have the whole world (including Europe) asking the UK how to do it.

    We've underfunded new nuclear, roads and some regional rail upgrades and enhancements. Strategic rail is ok. Superfast broadband rollout & telecoms is actually pretty good.

    The biggest economic failing is not getting on with Heathrow 3rd runway and Gatwick 2nd runway, coupled with boosting Jet Zero.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,134

    Newsflash.
    PB Tories don’t like it up em.
    Bears shit in woods.

    More at ten.

    You only tell me you love me when you're drunk.
  • MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    From the FT article

    Instead, Truss will include tax cuts, the elimination of green levies from energy bills and some targeted support for the vulnerable......

    If thats it, shes already finished. If she doesnt address the cap and businesses energy costs its already over
    Unless the tax giveaway is going to be much larger than is being trailed....???

    FFS what a gal...!!

    Or the reported 2 year cap freeze being proposed is agreed......
    Or both!....LOL...
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,746

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Non sequitur.
    Nope.

    To Tory is to serially underfund infrastructure, among other things.

    Labour have other issues.

    You, Tory voter, are to blame for public squalor.
    The one thing HS2 isn't is underfunded.

    Maybe engage your brain and put down the bottle.
    Do you seriously believe that UK infrastructure is funded to the same extent as it’s European peers?
    HS2 is supposed to cost about £45-90m/km, whereas Frog schemes cost £10-20m/km in comparable prices, according to a Parliamentary report.

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldselect/ldeconaf/134/13406.htm

    As Casino Royale said, whatever Boris did with HS2, he didn't underfund it. He loved his huge infrastructure projects.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,134

    McDonalds in Nottingham getting looted. There seems to be an uptick in this kind of thing:

    https://www.twitter.com/Antman0704/status/1561744461151064065

    If I was going to loot anything, it would be Waterstones.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,131
    ydoethur said:

    A great header Cyclefree, but one quibble:

    'all these complaints – lack of funding, effective cuts in pay, a lack of resources, demonisation of those raising concerns, a refusal to implement recommendations, even to meet – could be made, justifiably, by many others: medical professionals, for instance, or teachers or social care workers or many others providing vital services.'

    What do you mean by 'could be?' We ARE making these complaints. (I say we - it only applies to me for nine more days because I got so fed up with them.)

    Incidentally the individual responsible for many of the issues at Courts and Probation you highlight was 'failed upwards' and is now Permanent Secretary at - the DfE.

    Says it all, I fear.

    I didn't mean anything by it. Just wrote this v quickly. I know other sectors are making the same points. That's why I didn't want just to concentrate on the criminal bar because this is a wider issue - a failure to take seriously the state's fundamental functions and carry them out competently.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,522

    @stodge is a copper?

    “evening all” everyday was the big give away.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,569
    edited August 22

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Non sequitur.
    Nope.

    To Tory is to serially underfund infrastructure, among other things.

    Labour have other issues.

    You, Tory voter, are to blame for public squalor.
    The one thing HS2 isn't is underfunded.

    Maybe engage your brain and put down the bottle.
    Do you seriously believe that UK infrastructure is funded to the same extent as it’s European peers?
    I work in UK infrastructure. It's literally my job. Our infrastructure is world class. We literally have the whole world (including Europe) asking the UK how to do it.

    We've underfunded new nuclear, roads and some regional rail upgrades and enhancements. Strategic rail is ok. Superfast broadband rollout & telecoms is actually pretty good.

    The biggest economic failing is not getting on with Heathrow 3rd runway and Gatwick 2nd runway, coupled with boosting Jet Zero.
    Road, rail, and bus infrastructure outside of London is poor by Western European standards.

    Energy is a debacle; the water companies have been taking the piss for years. I don’t have a view on broadband, others might.

    Streetscenes are tatty, due to underfunded and underpowered local government. Cycling infrastructure is better but not first class.

    Kent is strewn with litter, the difference as soon as you cross the channel is notable.

    It would be churlish for me to ignore notable successes like Crossrail, and the UK is certainly better than the US, but the overall picture is not good and in decline.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 48,134

    McDonalds in Nottingham getting looted. There seems to be an uptick in this kind of thing:

    https://www.twitter.com/Antman0704/status/1561744461151064065

    So they get a criminal record (they are easily identified) for the sake of one £2.99 Big Mac. And the staff are possibly traumatised for good.

    What on earth is the point? And what on earth was the trigger?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,522
    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1561764326935040002?t=YJ2fbf-zZDFIqt267Y_Xqw&s=19

    CoL response immediately according to this with probably a November full budget?

    Is this the new regime talking?

    Today's article from John Redwood is pretty dismissive of the OBR forecasts, for example.
    They do seem to be getting it very wrong very often recently.
    It's not easy being an economic forecaster.

    What will happen in Ukraine? What will happen with Covid in China? Will China's housing market implode?

    Those are just three mega questions that you need to have to have a sensible view on the UK's economic growth, even before we talk about domestic issues.
    Wasn’t there an argument, without wars and pandemic, inflation was coming back to UK anyway, to be a permanent addition? Built upon the costs of supporting an ageing population?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,569
    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    How come Italy has a really good efficient high speed train network all over the country… and we are still struggling to build one line from London to Birmingham which will be finished in 2083 and will cost £298 trn?

    Because you keep voting Tory.
    Non sequitur.
    Nope.

    To Tory is to serially underfund infrastructure, among other things.

    Labour have other issues.

    You, Tory voter, are to blame for public squalor.
    The one thing HS2 isn't is underfunded.

    Maybe engage your brain and put down the bottle.
    Do you seriously believe that UK infrastructure is funded to the same extent as it’s European peers?
    HS2 is supposed to cost about £45-90m/km, whereas Frog schemes cost £10-20m/km in comparable prices, according to a Parliamentary report.

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldselect/ldeconaf/134/13406.htm

    As Casino Royale said, whatever Boris did with HS2, he didn't underfund it. He loved his huge infrastructure projects.
    HS2 was dreamt up under Labour, and greenlit by the Coalition.

    Boris loves to dream up quite shitty infra ideas but never funds them.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    geoffw said:

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    9h
    I know nothing about Dugina's death, so have no idea who did it. If the result, however, is Putin using it to crack down more on dissent, but not mobilize Russian society for war, that would logically point to an internal Russian involvement.
    Aug 22, 2022 · 9:45 AM UTC

    Phillips P. OBrien
    @PhillipsPOBrien
    5h
    Final comment--if in the end Putin does nothing--neither uses this as an opportunity to crack down or to mobilize/escalate--that would logically point to the fact that he really doesnt know what to do and that there are elements outside of his control in Russia that did this.

    The only people the Tories are lovebombing are selfish and miserable fogies who like to burn fifty pound notes, paid for by the triple lock, in the faces of their own grandchildren, while sneering about avocados and “wops”.
    You'd be amazed how few 50 notes the triple lock gets you in a winter fuel crisis. You do realise it applies only to the not quite 10,000 a year state pension?
    Aye, but you need to factor in the capital appreciation from near-empty 5-beds in the suburbs.
    Which everyone is issued with on their 67th birthday
This discussion has been closed.