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Getting the tone of an ad completely wrong – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 21 in General
Getting the tone of an ad completely wrong – politicalbetting.com

If the Republicans fail to win back control of the Senate in the elections on November 8th it could be that the above ad is partly responsible.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,729
    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296
    Betfair next prime minister
    1.06 Liz Truss 94%
    17 Rishi Sunak 6%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    15 Rishi Sunak 7%
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,293
    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.
    He attacks and disowns people as being awful to anyone with a brain, even when he himself appointed them and talked them up for years, I dont think he would find it difficult to disown Oz. But he'd do it afterwards.

    "Oz, great guy, but wouldn't listen to me, you know? I told him how to win, but you can't help some people".
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,729
    edited August 19
    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
    Like Boris, Trump is a decent campaigner - all that really counts in modern politics. Being any good in office ? Who cares :D
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,293

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    Well May was a pragmatic remainer, Johnson a remainer who chose leave for tactical reasons, and Truss an enthusiastic remainer. Maybe what Brexit needs is a true believer, like, err Sunak?

    But for some reason leavers have decided he is the remainer not Truss.
    Coming soon to a Sunak graphic.

    It is rather funny in fairness.

    All comes down to knifing the great one and not being good enough to overcome that.
    It's not really about Leave/Remain though, is it?

    Sunak's problem (apart from knifing Poor Borwisy-Worisy) is that he's telling people that they can't have their cake and eat it, that there are tradeoffs to be made.

    Truss (who is sound on Brexit, like St Paul was sound on Christianity) is selling the same sunny optimistic unicorn world where we can have everything we want and no downside.
    There are such reasons too, but let's not forget he was included among part of a 'remainer traitors' crowd by loyalists on here when the resignations were occurring.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,745
    My Russian isn't what it was, but this account by a Russian soldier of his travails in Ukraine is book-length absolutely riveting:

    https://sun6-22.userapi.com/c237231/u365182800/docs/d8/1c7b90c9e392/ZOV.pdf?extra=HLRkLS5u3aSQ7jdnb-OXuz1Q9iPNsmyRNcIAFs9mwmM-n6aKupQl1CBEFn4QFEcleMYjLD6HQD0UfUS5O07viKlA8HW9kPcIElEpaFfrHcVYvkWrxLHDCxdKt4krPuGiB8TlePzyV42f&dl=1

    (Of course it's easy enough to get it into English with Google translate if you don't mind some odd turns of phrase).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,050
    Note he got the name of the supermarket completely wrong, too.
    Along with the tone.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,293
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
    Like Boris, Trump is a decent campaigner - all that really counts in modern politics. Being any good in office ? Who cares :D
    People have taken the principle that you need to win first before you can do any good and rather taken it too far. So saying and doing anything, however unrealistic, and unconcern about ability to actually govern afterwards, has become the norm.

    Not so different to how it always was might be the argument, except that lack of ability to do 'normal' political things is practically a benefit a lot of the time, being an outsider who knows nothing, with even insiders pretending they are maverick outsiders.

    Can work - I don't think Zelensky was super popular pre-war, though how much was due to his political inexperience I have no idea, but he's grown into things - but the emphasis on campaigning above all else can be disproportionate.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,050
    Rudy Giuliani tells Newsmax that Trump was just trying to preserve documents by putting them in a safe place.
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1560464469230342144

    Out of the hands of the government.

    Or is he talking about the ones Trump flushed down the toilet ?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296
    Tory hustings 7 o'clock tonight in Manchester will be shown on GB News and no doubt other downstreaming sites will appear later today.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    Nigelb said:

    Rudy Giuliani tells Newsmax that Trump was just trying to preserve documents by putting them in a safe place.
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1560464469230342144

    Out of the hands of the government.

    Or is he talking about the ones Trump flushed down the toilet ?

    I just love how incompetent Trumpite lawyers are. They add considerably to the gaiety of the public sphere.

    But I don't want them anywhere near power again!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,509
    edited August 19
    Premature posting - apologies
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,729

    FPT

    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Then it will never end
    I’ll never stop bitching about it. Unless by some miracle our whole way of life exceeds that of being in the EU - public realm, worker protection, environmental regs, the whole shebang, then I will continue to bitch about it.

    Every day that passes I am more and more convinced that Brexit is a right wing project to screw normal people. To make us as divided as the US, with crumbling infrastructure and privatised healthcare. I hope I’m wrong but at the minute I don’t think I am.

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party. The Leave campaigns, financed by the same people who finance the Tory Party, were just bullshit from beginning to end.

    I was born a European citizen. It meant a lot to me and I have had it stripped from me against my will. I will never forgive or forget that.
    I doubt it'll make us like the USA with their productivity, strong currency, strong growth and cheapish energy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586
    All the leaves are brown, and the sky is grey

    I’ve been for a walk: all the birds went away

    https://www.ft.com/content/dc4bc7e7-40d7-4aad-9582-ea8935aac090

    “Avian flu kills 86m birds; humans should be worried”
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,509
    edited August 19
    Leon said:

    All the leaves are brown, and the sky is grey

    I’ve been for a walk: all the birds went away

    https://www.ft.com/content/dc4bc7e7-40d7-4aad-9582-ea8935aac090

    “Avian flu kills 86m birds; humans should be worried”

    From a Ukrainian (American) biolab is the allegation. GOF research.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,050
    Also, WTF is going on with his eyebrows ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586
    So THIS is what the Endtimes look like. TBH I expected more angels with flaming swords. Not a lot of dead birds on a Scottish rock
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,125
    Driver said:

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK

    Well, there's your mistake.
    Do NOT censor like that to set up a smart ass reply. It's bad practice.

    The next bit was key ... "far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,293

    FPT

    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Then it will never end
    I’ll never stop bitching about it. Unless by some miracle our whole way of life exceeds that of being in the EU - public realm, worker protection, environmental regs, the whole shebang, then I will continue to bitch about it.

    Every day that passes I am more and more convinced that Brexit is a right wing project to screw normal people. To make us as divided as the US, with crumbling infrastructure and privatised healthcare. I hope I’m wrong but at the minute I don’t think I am.

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party. The Leave campaigns, financed by the same people who finance the Tory Party, were just bullshit from beginning to end.

    I was born a European citizen. It meant a lot to me and I have had it stripped from me against my will. I will never forgive or forget that.
    Bitching about it is not the issue, it's that politicians still see benefits in no compromising, hence the government always wanting to keep arguments with the EU going and talking about Brexit itself being threatened.

    It's not helpful for anyone to simply refight the original decision over and over again, but senior figures prefer to do that because it means no need to address immediate issues.

    Whatever his personal inclinations Starmer at least seems to accept this, that he needs to fix things within the current set up rather than simply resist.
  • FPT

    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Then it will never end
    I’ll never stop bitching about it. Unless by some miracle our whole way of life exceeds that of being in the EU - public realm, worker protection, environmental regs, the whole shebang, then I will continue to bitch about it.

    Every day that passes I am more and more convinced that Brexit is a right wing project to screw normal people. To make us as divided as the US, with crumbling infrastructure and privatised healthcare. I hope I’m wrong but at the minute I don’t think I am.

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party. The Leave campaigns, financed by the same people who finance the Tory Party, were just bullshit from beginning to end.

    I was born a European citizen. It meant a lot to me and I have had it stripped from me against my will. I will never forgive or forget that.
    There's nothing to forgive or forget, its called democracy. You lost a democratic vote, that's not unforgiveable.

    Putting trust in unelected bureaucrats to act in the best interests of people who aren't voting for them is up there with saying that Putin is great because he gets stuff done, so who cares about democracy?

    If you want your best interests represented, seek to win an election for MPs representing your best interests, don't seek to circumvent or reject democracy.
  • ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
    (That last sentence might be liable to misinterpretation......)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,050

    Leon said:

    All the leaves are brown, and the sky is grey

    I’ve been for a walk: all the birds went away

    https://www.ft.com/content/dc4bc7e7-40d7-4aad-9582-ea8935aac090

    “Avian flu kills 86m birds; humans should be worried”

    From a Ukrainian (American) biolab is the allegation. GOF research.
    Is that the same one that shot down MH17 ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586

    FPT

    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Then it will never end
    I’ll never stop bitching about it. Unless by some miracle our whole way of life exceeds that of being in the EU - public realm, worker protection, environmental regs, the whole shebang, then I will continue to bitch about it.

    Every day that passes I am more and more convinced that Brexit is a right wing project to screw normal people. To make us as divided as the US, with crumbling infrastructure and privatised healthcare. I hope I’m wrong but at the minute I don’t think I am.

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party. The Leave campaigns, financed by the same people who finance the Tory Party, were just bullshit from beginning to end.

    I was born a European citizen. It meant a lot to me and I have had it stripped from me against my will. I will never forgive or forget that.
    Ahahahaha
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,509
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    All the leaves are brown, and the sky is grey

    I’ve been for a walk: all the birds went away

    https://www.ft.com/content/dc4bc7e7-40d7-4aad-9582-ea8935aac090

    “Avian flu kills 86m birds; humans should be worried”

    From a Ukrainian (American) biolab is the allegation. GOF research.
    Is that the same one that shot down MH17 ?
    Unless that was done by diseased birds, no.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,805
    edited August 19
    Leon said:

    So THIS is what the Endtimes look like. TBH I expected more angels with flaming swords. Not a lot of dead birds on a Scottish rock

    Obviously put the wrong terms into DALL-E.
  • kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK

    Well, there's your mistake.
    Do NOT censor like that to set up a smart ass reply. It's bad practice.

    The next bit was key ... "far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party".
    Its not remotely key. There is a democratic way to remove the Tory Party, vote for another party. There is no democratic way to remove unelected supranational EU bureaucrats (if you're rejecting the notion of Brexit entirely).

    To put your faith in unelected bodies because you dislike the fact that some of your compatriots might vote for people you dislike, is not a healthy path to go down. Its downright Trumpian too, seeking to reverse election results that go "wrong".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,293
    Leon said:

    So THIS is what the Endtimes look like. TBH I expected more angels with flaming swords. Not a lot of dead birds on a Scottish rock

    God doesn't want to repeat the classics, but I'm not sure about this new direction.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
    (That last sentence might be liable to misinterpretation......)
    Really? That's careless of me.

    However, if I have inadvertently compared Susan Acland-Hood to Donald Trump and thereby caused offence, I apologise unreservedly and hope Mr Trump will forgive me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586
    As the entire world plunges towards apocalyptic hellfire, nuclear disaster, alien hostilities, grotesque AI inception and a final few days of frenzied mass extinctions and panicked global hunger, it is some solace to know that somewhere on the doomed earth there will - right until the terminal moment - be some girly Remoaner whining about Brexit, and a nearby Leaver pointing and laughing at him
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,293
    Nigelb said:

    Rudy Giuliani tells Newsmax that Trump was just trying to preserve documents by putting them in a safe place.
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1560464469230342144

    Out of the hands of the government.

    Or is he talking about the ones Trump flushed down the toilet ?

    "[The law is] not about taking them and putting them in a place that's roughly as safe as they were in the first place"

    Counsellor, might I suggest that even if that were true, the word 'roughly' in your sentence is rather critical?
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
    (That last sentence might be liable to misinterpretation......)
    Really? That's careless of me.

    However, if I have inadvertently compared Susan Acland-Hood to Donald Trump and thereby caused offence, I apologise unreservedly and hope Mr Trump will forgive me.
    No, I think you have suggested that she might be an alcoholic!
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,424



    One of the carriers is currently deployed on an exercise with our Northern European friends, IIRC. Consider why that is?

    24 F35 (or even 12 F35) would be more powerful than the entire Argentine airforce.

    In fact, it is interesting to see the number of countries for which that is true.

    PoW is proudly steaming around the Med with exactly zero F-35 embarked.

    The F-35 fleet is entirely RAF owned and operated (with token FAA involvement) and so will deploy to the carriers as seldom as they possibly can.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,050

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    All the leaves are brown, and the sky is grey

    I’ve been for a walk: all the birds went away

    https://www.ft.com/content/dc4bc7e7-40d7-4aad-9582-ea8935aac090

    “Avian flu kills 86m birds; humans should be worried”

    From a Ukrainian (American) biolab is the allegation. GOF research.
    Is that the same one that shot down MH17 ?
    Unless that was done by diseased birds, no.
    It's the same BS source.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,539
    Leon said:

    As the entire world plunges towards apocalyptic hellfire, nuclear disaster, alien hostilities, grotesque AI inception and a final few days of frenzied mass extinctions and panicked global hunger, it is some solace to know that somewhere on the doomed earth there will - right until the terminal moment - be some girly Remoaner whining about Brexit, and a nearby Leaver pointing and laughing at him

    If there is a hell, it'll most likely involve being a sane person made to sit in the 2017-2019 parliament.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    edited August 19

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
    (That last sentence might be liable to misinterpretation......)
    Really? That's careless of me.

    However, if I have inadvertently compared Susan Acland-Hood to Donald Trump and thereby caused offence, I apologise unreservedly and hope Mr Trump will forgive me.
    No, I think you have suggested that she might be an alcoholic!
    I implied that she illegally consumed alcohol.

    Since she admitted to drinking alcohol on government premises at a time non-work events were in any case forbidden, I'm quite comfortable with that remark.

    (It's not illegal to be an alcoholic, remember, which is just as well for a few posters on here, so that couldn't be the meaning of my post.)
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 784
    edited August 19

    FPT

    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Then it will never end
    I’ll never stop bitching about it. Unless by some miracle our whole way of life exceeds that of being in the EU - public realm, worker protection, environmental regs, the whole shebang, then I will continue to bitch about it.

    Every day that passes I am more and more convinced that Brexit is a right wing project to screw normal people. To make us as divided as the US, with crumbling infrastructure and privatised healthcare. I hope I’m wrong but at the minute I don’t think I am.

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party. The Leave campaigns, financed by the same people who finance the Tory Party, were just bullshit from beginning to end.

    I was born a European citizen. It meant a lot to me and I have had it stripped from me against my will. I will never forgive or forget that.
    Many more people felt that being in the EU dragged down their local areas and left them feeling ignored. It's great that you felt a benefit, but the big issue with continuity die hard remainers is they still think that queuing in the EU line and free mobile phone roaming meant deprived areas had no right to vote leave.

    To a lot of people, they couldn't care less about those issues when they saw their areas becoming deprived and this was their only way of telling the government that they matter. For them not to be listened to after the referendum would have destroyed their trust in democracy forever.

    I voted remain, and I wanted to have a second referendum until about 2018, but then I realised I was on the wrong side of history and got over it. You should too.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,745
    edited August 19
    Driver said:

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK

    Well, there's your mistake.
    He can't have met many. I've spent years of my career dealing with them, and, like every unaccountable bureaucracy, what they mostly care about is justifying and increasing their own power and perks. This is not just cynicism - it's entirely understandable given their incentives, and less-accountable parts of our bureaucracy (NHS managers or quangocrats) are similar enough.

    To be fair, many Eurocrats admit it pretty openly if you get them in the right mood, over a beer or two on the Grande Place, once they've given you the usual bullshit about ensuring peace in Europe.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,586
    Leon said:

    FPT

    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Then it will never end
    I’ll never stop bitching about it. Unless by some miracle our whole way of life exceeds that of being in the EU - public realm, worker protection, environmental regs, the whole shebang, then I will continue to bitch about it.

    Every day that passes I am more and more convinced that Brexit is a right wing project to screw normal people. To make us as divided as the US, with crumbling infrastructure and privatised healthcare. I hope I’m wrong but at the minute I don’t think I am.

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party. The Leave campaigns, financed by the same people who finance the Tory Party, were just bullshit from beginning to end.

    I was born a European citizen. It meant a lot to me and I have had it stripped from me against my will. I will never forgive or forget that.
    Ahahahaha
    Don’t worry, the Remoaner revenge against the gammons will be both brutal and merciless.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,958
    Not sure about this. The white working class overwhelmingly vote GOP anyway.

    It is wealthy suburban voters who are the swing voters in PA who voted for Trump in 2016 but Biden in 2020 and who will know have dinner parties with crudites
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,095
    edited August 19
    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK

    Well, there's your mistake.
    Do NOT censor like that to set up a smart ass reply. It's bad practice.

    The next bit was key ... "far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party".
    "The next bit" was at least zero, implying that the trust in the EU bureaucrats was greater than zero, which is of course the correct amount of trust anyone should have had in them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586
    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
    (That last sentence might be liable to misinterpretation......)
    Really? That's careless of me.

    However, if I have inadvertently compared Susan Acland-Hood to Donald Trump and thereby caused offence, I apologise unreservedly and hope Mr Trump will forgive me.
    No, I think you have suggested that she might be an alcoholic!
    I implied that she illegally consumed alcohol.

    Since she admitted to drinking alcohol on government premises at a time non-work events were in any case forbidden, I'm quite comfortable with that remark.

    (It's not illegal to be an alcoholic, remember, which is just as well for a few posters on here, so that couldn't be the meaning of my post.)
    Oh, I get it now - thanks for the explanation. (It's a fast-moving world, and I had forgotten the details.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,958
    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
  • PJHPJH Posts: 251
    Damn. FPT:
    PJH said:

    Scott_xP said:

    moonshine said:

    most people now don’t give the Brexit wars a second thought

    Once again, for the hard of thinking, my post highlighted Brexiteers whining about Brexit.

    If you are going to be triggered every time Brexiteers whine about how shit Brexit is, you are in for a sad time
    I think this reflects the total lack of a plan (and still no obvious sign of one, 6 years on), and 17.4m different versions of Brexit that were being voted for as opposed to just one version of the EU.

    As somebody in @Scott_xP 's camp, I am resigned to not rejoining in my lifetime.

    I get the sovereignty argument, although for me it's not a big deal as to do anything on the world stage compromise is necessary (and if our soverignty is so important, why are we also still in NATO, for example?). But having gained our "independence", what are we doing with it? So far it seems, nothing. We aren't even able to control our borders which was one of the stated aims of Brexit.

    There is a Brexit that I could support whole-heartedly. Better environmental standards. Better quality food. Better labour laws. Insist British businesses are majority owned by British people. Full transparency on business and property ownership. Democracy returned to the lowest level (actually we could have done that in the EU). Free trade with other countries adopting similar standards. Massive tariffs on the rest.

    I'm not necessarily saying I advocate all those things, but I would expect somebody to be proposing something like that, and I would give them a hearing. But - nothing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
    (That last sentence might be liable to misinterpretation......)
    Really? That's careless of me.

    However, if I have inadvertently compared Susan Acland-Hood to Donald Trump and thereby caused offence, I apologise unreservedly and hope Mr Trump will forgive me.
    No, I think you have suggested that she might be an alcoholic!
    I implied that she illegally consumed alcohol.

    Since she admitted to drinking alcohol on government premises at a time non-work events were in any case forbidden, I'm quite comfortable with that remark.

    (It's not illegal to be an alcoholic, remember, which is just as well for a few posters on here, so that couldn't be the meaning of my post.)
    Oh, I get it now - thanks for the explanation. (It's a fast-moving world, and I had forgotten the details.)
    Believe me, I haven't. And nor has any other teacher.
  • Leon said:

    As the entire world plunges towards apocalyptic hellfire, nuclear disaster, alien hostilities, grotesque AI inception and a final few days of frenzied mass extinctions and panicked global hunger, it is some solace to know that somewhere on the doomed earth there will - right until the terminal moment - be some girly Remoaner whining about Brexit, and a nearby Leaver pointing and laughing at him

    While flint knappers around the world will be talking about DALLE-2 as the Vogon Fleet approaches.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    I’m not saying it’s good or bad

    I’m just saying this was the obvious realpolitik move. It also - I am sure - would have commanded a majority of British public opinion. All the Remainers and half of Leavers. A compromise. Stay in the EEA

    Instead the fucking idiots decided that cancelling the vote and telling 17.4 million people “your vote doesn’t matter, even if you won” was somehow a BETTER idea
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,141
    Leon said:

    As the entire world plunges towards apocalyptic hellfire, nuclear disaster, alien hostilities, grotesque AI inception and a final few days of frenzied mass extinctions and panicked global hunger, it is some solace to know that somewhere on the doomed earth there will - right until the terminal moment - be some girly Remoaner whining about Brexit, and a nearby Leaver pointing and laughing at him

    It isn't the Leavers that are doing the laughing @Leon. We who were not gullible to vote Brexit are having a really good titter at those that still believe in it; that diminishing deranged swivel-eyed bunch, who are tormented by the high likelihood that we will re-join, possibly in the twilight of their sad and insular xenophobic lives.

    By the way, there have been no alien visitations, Brexit will deliver nothing and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. I do like you, and you are amusing, but in spite of clearly being intelligent in other ways, you are a seriously gullible twat sometimes.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,337
    edited August 19
    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. It would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,141
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dr Oz does seem to be a piss poor candidate. Has Trump disowned him yet ?

    Trump can't disown candidates merely for being pisspoor or he's going to rule himself straight out of 2024.

    It would be like Susan Acland-Hood firing somebody for the illegal consumption of alcohol.
    Like Boris, Trump is a decent campaigner - all that really counts in modern politics. Being any good in office ? Who cares :D
    As I have said before, it is like someone performing really well at interview and then being shit at the job. There are not many employers who would say "hey, give the guy a break, look how well he did at interview", and yet that is what apologists for Johnson and Trump will effectively say.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,254
    The video reminds me, once again, why politics was never going to be a job for me. Or anyone actually sane. Who wants anything approaching a normal life. And is not completely dominated by their own ego. I mean, just no.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586
    To put it more pithily. Tony Blair and Keir Starmer and Michael Heseltine and Jolyon Maugham and the Supreme Court and the BBC and the Guardian and every other senior 2nd voter was outplayed by… Mark Francois


    I can almost understand why they now think it must have been a brilliant Russian conspiracy. That’s easier to handle, mentally
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    Immigration has increased since Brexit and this government, which enacted Brexit, wants even more.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,095
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. Iw would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
    No, that's not at all true. It's May (a Remainer) who went for the hardest of hard Brexits because (a) she didn't understand what drove the Leave vote any more than you do, and (b) by the time she bacame PM, too many Remainers had become second referendumers, causing most Leavers to prioritise getting any Brexit over having their vote cancelled.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,670
    RH1992 said:

    FPT

    Dura_Ace said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    And so it begins: an article in the Telegraph today blames the lack of Brexit benefits experienced thus far on "the Johnson government's incompetence". Boris Johnson, the latest Brexit high priest to be blamed for Brexit not coming good. This will happen to Liz Truss eventually.
    https://twitter.com/NicholasTyrone/status/1560209392280141824

    When do you think you might live a day on earth without getting yourself triggered by Brexit? Six years on now. Its quite sad to think it plausible that you might never.
    But why though? That's the puzzling thing for me.

    I voted remain, pragmatically, and missed the deepness of attachment that some obviously had/have for the EU construct. I find it quite bizarre.

    I think it comes down to one of two things: a dislike (non-admitted) of the people of their own country and being part of the EU in their mind diluted that (perhaps combined with a dislike of the very concept of the nation state); and /or their own personal situation (i.e. property abroad or other financial aspect).
    There's practical aspects of leaving the EU for exporters that are... expensive, our Dutch accountants (An expense needed only because we left the EU) reckon reclaimation from Germany is impossible for British firms and we've got a row over a potential 6 figure VAT bill (Which I'm not going to go into on a public form) here.
    Trading in Euros would eliminate lots of currency risk for us too.
    So for me wanting to rejoin is purely on pragmatics & business reasons - any emotional or social attachment the likes of Soubry and Steve Bray show to a vast intra-country beaurocracy is beyond my comprehension.
    Good morning

    It is obvious we need an improved relationship with the EU but the likes of Soubry and Bray and @Scott_xP just cause so much annoyance they may not see it but their attitude only contributes to the divisions rather than helps to find a compromise
    Fuck compromise. Leavers never compromised on their Long March and we won't either.
    Then it will never end
    I’ll never stop bitching about it. Unless by some miracle our whole way of life exceeds that of being in the EU - public realm, worker protection, environmental regs, the whole shebang, then I will continue to bitch about it.

    Every day that passes I am more and more convinced that Brexit is a right wing project to screw normal people. To make us as divided as the US, with crumbling infrastructure and privatised healthcare. I hope I’m wrong but at the minute I don’t think I am.

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party. The Leave campaigns, financed by the same people who finance the Tory Party, were just bullshit from beginning to end.

    I was born a European citizen. It meant a lot to me and I have had it stripped from me against my will. I will never forgive or forget that.
    Many more people felt that being in the EU dragged down their local areas and left them feeling ignored
    There's no accounting for idiots; we can't govern the country entirely on their behalf.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,337
    Leon said:

    To put it more pithily. Tony Blair and Keir Starmer and Michael Heseltine and Jolyon Maugham and the Supreme Court and the BBC and the Guardian and every other senior 2nd voter was outplayed by… Mark Francois


    I can almost understand why they now think it must have been a brilliant Russian conspiracy. That’s easier to handle, mentally

    Why are you so keen to remind everyone you won? Is it because you suddenly realise that winning was not all you made it out to be.
  • DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. Iw would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
    Brexiteers didn't go ending Free Movement and leaving the Single Market from the day after the vote, they went for it before the referendum as too did Remainers who said that voting Leave would mean leaving the Single Market.

    That is about the one and only thing that David Cameron, George Osborne, Nick Clegg, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and more all agreed upon.

    Having won the referendum of course the Leavers wouldn't then seek to abandon their project and give it up, but the Remainers could have defeated them in Parliament and snatched EFTA/EEA despite it not being what was campaigned for. Like a last minute equalisers in football, but they tried to reverse the result instead so got nothing and allowed Leavers to get what they voted for.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. Iw would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
    A rare sighting of “balderdash”

    Nice. Not often seen in the wild these days. And an “absolute balderdash” as well
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,703
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. Iw would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
    A rare sighting of “balderdash”

    Nice. Not often seen in the wild these days. And an “absolute balderdash” as well
    I prefer 'balderdasherooni.'
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,482
    Nigelb said:

    Rudy Giuliani tells Newsmax that Trump was just trying to preserve documents by putting them in a safe place.
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1560464469230342144

    Out of the hands of the government.

    Or is he talking about the ones Trump flushed down the toilet ?

    Who is writing Giuliani's scripts? Father Ted! "The money was just resting in my account".
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    Immigration has increased since Brexit and this government, which enacted Brexit, wants even more.
    Good. Do you object to controlled, increased immigration? I don't, why would you? 👍
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586
    edited August 19
    DougSeal said:

    The problem with Leon is that he can't get over the fact he won. His obsession over Brexit. "Rejoice" he keeps reminding us. Like some host at a terrible party desperate for guests, who are clearly regretting their decision to come, to start having a good time.

    Go back over the thread. You were all arguing vehemently about Brexit before I arrived. I am merely chipping in

    As I said yesterday, it will be a good day in British history when Brexit goes unmentioned on PB for 24 hours. Acceptance. Clearly, we’re not there yet. But we will get there. Unless the world ends beforehand
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,509
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    All the leaves are brown, and the sky is grey

    I’ve been for a walk: all the birds went away

    https://www.ft.com/content/dc4bc7e7-40d7-4aad-9582-ea8935aac090

    “Avian flu kills 86m birds; humans should be worried”

    From a Ukrainian (American) biolab is the allegation. GOF research.
    Is that the same one that shot down MH17 ?
    Unless that was done by diseased birds, no.
    It's the same BS source.
    True. That's why its an allegation. But it is something that Russia has alleged.

    What is established fact, is that the US has been studying ways to make Avian flu deadlier.
    https://www.vox.com/2019/2/17/18225938/biologists-are-trying-to-make-bird-flu-easier-to-spread-can-we-not

    The justification in terms of 'positives' for this type of research is so thin it would be insulting to tissue paper to make the comparison.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,337
    edited August 19
    Driver said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. Iw would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
    No, that's not at all true. It's May (a Remainer) who went for the hardest of hard Brexits because (a) she didn't understand what drove the Leave vote any more than you do, and (b) by the time she bacame PM, too many Remainers had become second referendumers, causing most Leavers to prioritise getting any Brexit over having their vote cancelled.
    No leaver or remainer before the vote denied that exiting the EU would mean leaving the Single Market. All agreed on that. The Leave vote was driven by that fact, which meant ending free movement, as exemplified by the Farage's famous poster. Most Leavers leapt on "sovereignty" to detract from that fact. No Leaver, after June 2016, suggested staying in the Single Market.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,586
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. Iw would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
    A rare sighting of “balderdash”

    Nice. Not often seen in the wild these days. And an “absolute balderdash” as well
    I prefer 'balderdasherooni.'
    Ooh. So do I
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,254
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    As the entire world plunges towards apocalyptic hellfire, nuclear disaster, alien hostilities, grotesque AI inception and a final few days of frenzied mass extinctions and panicked global hunger, it is some solace to know that somewhere on the doomed earth there will - right until the terminal moment - be some girly Remoaner whining about Brexit, and a nearby Leaver pointing and laughing at him

    If there is a hell, it'll most likely involve being a sane person made to sit in the 2017-2019 parliament.
    In Lucifer, an incredibly silly but somehow gripping show, they have the concept of a hell loop which plays over and over as a form of torture. That would indeed be mine. It would be a Kobayashi Maru scenario but with the extra twist that every time you would think, this time something sensible will emerge. But it never will.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    Immigration has increased since Brexit and this government, which enacted Brexit, wants even more.
    Good. Do you object to controlled, increased immigration? I don't, why would you? 👍
    Read my reply in context of what I was replying to, which was that Brexit had to end free movement in order to cut immigration. If that was the government's intention then it has singularly failed.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,539
    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Both sides played it all or nothing. There was a time when a second referendum looked possible, in which case we might (or might not!) have ended up with remain and cocky remainers would be saying:

    "If only ultra-Leavers like X had accepted the closeness of the Brexit vote and sought compromise - rather thank going for a rock hard Brexit lacking general support - they would have got their Brexit."

    The irony being that, for most normal people, Brexit/the EU was fairly far down a list of concerns. There was a reasonable 'meh' majority on both sides that would have been content enough with some kind of messy compromise such as EEA/EFTA.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 251

    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK

    Well, there's your mistake.
    Do NOT censor like that to set up a smart ass reply. It's bad practice.

    The next bit was key ... "far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party".
    Its not remotely key. There is a democratic way to remove the Tory Party, vote for another party. There is no democratic way to remove unelected supranational EU bureaucrats (if you're rejecting the notion of Brexit entirely).

    To put your faith in unelected bodies because you dislike the fact that some of your compatriots might vote for people you dislike, is not a healthy path to go down. Its downright Trumpian too, seeking to reverse election results that go "wrong".
    Tell me, how do I remove, democratically, the Permanent Secretary of the Home Office? Or Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park? Or even (dare I say it), HM the Queen?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,050
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. Iw would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
    A rare sighting of “balderdash”

    Nice. Not often seen in the wild these days. And an “absolute balderdash” as well
    LOL.
    Mirror.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,337
    edited August 19
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    The problem with Leon is that he can't get over the fact he won. His obsession over Brexit. "Rejoice" he keeps reminding us. Like some host at a terrible party desperate for guests, who are clearly regretting their decision to come, to start having a good time.

    Go back over the thread. You were all arguing vehemently about Brexit before I arrived. I am merely chipping in

    As I said yesterday, it will be a good day in British history when Brexit goes unmentioned on PB for 24 hours. Acceptance. Clearly, we’re not there yet. But we will get there. Unless the world ends beforehand
    We tolerate your sock puppetry because it's amusing but don't push this "I'm a newbie round here" too far.

    EDIT probably pushing the limits of "we" too far there to be honest.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,141
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    I’m not saying it’s good or bad

    I’m just saying this was the obvious realpolitik move. It also - I am sure - would have commanded a majority of British public opinion. All the Remainers and half of Leavers. A compromise. Stay in the EEA

    Instead the fucking idiots decided that cancelling the vote and telling 17.4 million people “your vote doesn’t matter, even if you won” was somehow a BETTER idea
    That is bollox and you know it. It was the Brexiters who once having won the vote decided to drive home their advantage and go for the full monty hardest Brexit they could manage. They had no magnanimity in victory, no attempt to make a compromise that would unite the country. This is because Brexiteers are essentially just like Nationalists north of the border; they are driven by hate, and division is their favourite pass time. It is why in spite of having got the vote you wanted you are still are determined to wind up the 48% that thought it was dumb, which proves to me you are still trying very hard to convince yourself. And do you know why you need to do this? Because you are not stupid enough to not realise that it was completely pointless.

    Leon it was pointless. Thick. Stupid. But we are stuck with it and many of us realise that we have to make the best of it. We will still continue to laugh at those who still genuinely believe in the Brexit Bollox, and also those like you who keep desperately trying to convince yourself.
  • HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    Immigration has increased since Brexit and this government, which enacted Brexit, wants even more.
    Good. Do you object to controlled, increased immigration? I don't, why would you? 👍
    Read my reply in context of what I was replying to, which was that Brexit had to end free movement in order to cut immigration. If that was the government's intention then it has singularly failed.
    Yeah but HYUFD is like Theresa May, a Remainer, who never understood Brexit or Brexiteers and reduces it all down to reducing immigration.

    Remain-voting PMs like David Cameron and Theresa May were elected campaigning to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands but the Leave campaign (and Boris as PM) made no such commitment.

    Talk on immigration from the sane wing of Brexiteers (ie ignoring Farage) was primarily about controlling it, not about cutting it.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Both sides played it all or nothing. There was a time when a second referendum looked possible, in which case we might (or might not!) have ended up with remain and cocky remainers would be saying:

    "If only ultra-Leavers like X had accepted the closeness of the Brexit vote and sought compromise - rather thank going for a rock hard Brexit lacking general support - they would have got their Brexit."

    The irony being that, for most normal people, Brexit/the EU was fairly far down a list of concerns. There was a reasonable 'meh' majority on both sides that would have been content enough with some kind of messy compromise such as EEA/EFTA.
    The irony of Brexit was it was led by Boris, a remainer posing as a leaver, and passed on to Theresa May, a leaver posing as a remainer, and will soon pass to Liz Truss, a remainer who is regarded as more of a leaver than Rishi Sunak who did actually campaign for leave.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,720
    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ONS/status/1560507188459741185

    Retail sales volumes rose slightly by 0.3% in July 2022 following a fall of 0.2% in June 2022.

    Retail remains 2.3% above its pre-pandemic level http://ow.ly/aAlL50KnA8c


    People not feeling the need to tighten their belts.

    Or simply having to pay higher prices for things...
    Or stocking up.
    Indeed, expecting things to go further up in price.

    The ONS did mention that alcohol, tobacco, clothes and household goods all fell. This would suggest to me that discretionary spending is down.
    Lol, you’ve realised the logical error in your first argument.

    To be honest, that discretionary spending isn’t falling off a cliff should be a big concern.

    Of course, the media don’t see it like that. They want the story to be “people are feeling the squeeze and spending less.” They don’t like asking “well why aren’t people saving ahead of the huge energy price rises?”
    Two reasons why people aren't saving.

    A bit of denial. Despite it being one of the defining advantages for humans, the ability to anticipate and prepare for future events can be hard to use when the anticipated change is negative. People are in denial about how bad the price increases will be.

    Secondly, there's an assumption that the government will be forced by public and media pressure to fix the problem, so that there will be no disaster to prepare for. The government have done a lot to create this feeling by emphasizing how much they have done and will do to help, and so there's a complacency. The infinite capacity of government borrowing will ride to the rescue again, and all will be well.

    I have my doubts. I think a wise thing to do this winter is to consolidate homes with wider family and friends as much as possible. Have granny come to stay early for Christmas, and don't send her home until winter is over.
    All very good points. I think where I'm coming from with this is that we are utterly infantilised. Everything is framed as "why isn't the government doing more to help?" and, yes, the government helps to encourage that thinking by saying it is doing lots to help.

    We need to have an honest conversation with ourselves about how to cope with the problem we face. But ultimately it all comes back to "how are the government going to ensure that people can continue having the standard of living that they have now?"
  • PJH said:

    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK

    Well, there's your mistake.
    Do NOT censor like that to set up a smart ass reply. It's bad practice.

    The next bit was key ... "far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party".
    Its not remotely key. There is a democratic way to remove the Tory Party, vote for another party. There is no democratic way to remove unelected supranational EU bureaucrats (if you're rejecting the notion of Brexit entirely).

    To put your faith in unelected bodies because you dislike the fact that some of your compatriots might vote for people you dislike, is not a healthy path to go down. Its downright Trumpian too, seeking to reverse election results that go "wrong".
    Tell me, how do I remove, democratically, the Permanent Secretary of the Home Office? Or Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park? Or even (dare I say it), HM the Queen?
    You may not realise this but I'm a republican who wants the House of Lords to be abolished, so perhaps not the best question to ask your question to, but all of those are in practice answerable to the elected House of Commons. And none of them can change the law without the elected Government or the Commons approving it.

    Not the case with the EU which could circumvent the Commons.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,670

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    Immigration has increased since Brexit and this government, which enacted Brexit, wants even more.
    Good. Do you object to controlled, increased immigration? I don't, why would you? 👍
    Read my reply in context of what I was replying to, which was that Brexit had to end free movement in order to cut immigration. If that was the government's intention then it has singularly failed.
    Talk on immigration from the sane wing of Brexiteers (ie ignoring Farage) was primarily about controlling it, not about cutting it.
    LOL x 1,000,000,000

    Farage _was_ Brexit. And - where oh where is @Isam - cutting down immigration was the main driver of Brexit.

    Look you can cover your ears and should la la la all you want but if you really think that the main driver of Brexit (rather than the fantasy land I'm not an awful person, really, state you're in now) was not about reducing immigration then you disqualify yourself from discussing politics, no matter how early you tipped Sunak to be next PM and at what odds.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,805
    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. Iw would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
    No, that's not at all true. It's May (a Remainer) who went for the hardest of hard Brexits because (a) she didn't understand what drove the Leave vote any more than you do, and (b) by the time she bacame PM, too many Remainers had become second referendumers, causing most Leavers to prioritise getting any Brexit over having their vote cancelled.
    No leaver or remainer before the vote denied that exiting the EU would mean leaving the Single Market. All agreed on that. The Leave vote was driven by that fact, which meant ending free movement, as exemplified by the Farage's famous poster. Most Leavers leapt on "sovereignty" to detract from that fact. No Leaver, after June 2016, suggested staying in the Single Market.
    Cake and eat it, though.

    The plan (in as much as there was a plan) was to retain the benefits of Single Market membership that we liked, whilst opting out of the bits we found uncongenial.

    For various reasons, that hasn't worked out, which just goes to show how unreasonable Brussels is, how feeble a negotiation Cameron did, how terrible a PM May was, and now the same thing is happening with Johnson.

    I'd find the whole "Associate Membership" and "better relationships" stuff much more convincing if its proponents ever named the benefits to the UK they were willing to forego, or the obligations that they were willing to take up.
  • Going back to a discussion on the previous thread, the problem with grade inflation is that it becomes more difficult to differentiate between the higher achieving candidates.

    Accademic achievement amongst the population is likely to be normally distributed. But if up to 40% are getting A or A*, then the A level results are more likely to fit a poisson distribution. It is not a good fit.

    One of the purpose of exams is to be able to differentiate between candidates, so that universities and employers are able to determine which are better.

    Currently, the A level grading system provides a lot of differentiation at low grades, but less at high grades.

    In my view it should be the opposite.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,948

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    I’m not saying it’s good or bad

    I’m just saying this was the obvious realpolitik move. It also - I am sure - would have commanded a majority of British public opinion. All the Remainers and half of Leavers. A compromise. Stay in the EEA

    Instead the fucking idiots decided that cancelling the vote and telling 17.4 million people “your vote doesn’t matter, even if you won” was somehow a BETTER idea
    That is bollox and you know it. It was the Brexiters who once having won the vote decided to drive home their advantage and go for the full monty hardest Brexit they could manage. They had no magnanimity in victory, no attempt to make a compromise that would unite the country. This is because Brexiteers are essentially just like Nationalists north of the border; they are driven by hate, and division is their favourite pass time. It is why in spite of having got the vote you wanted you are still are determined to wind up the 48% that thought it was dumb, which proves to me you are still trying very hard to convince yourself. And do you know why you need to do this? Because you are not stupid enough to not realise that it was completely pointless.

    Leon it was pointless. Thick. Stupid. But we are stuck with it and many of us realise that we have to make the best of it. We will still continue to laugh at those who still genuinely believe in the Brexit Bollox, and also those like you who keep desperately trying to convince yourself.
    To argue that it was thick, stupid and pointless, you have to argue that there could never ever be any circumstances in which it might not be optimal for us to have any trade policy levers independent of Brussels, even though the period following the financial crisis was an obvious example where this was not the case. In wasn't pointless, no matter how painful you find it to concede that the unsophisticated citizens of somewhere might have been right about something.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,478
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ONS/status/1560507188459741185

    Retail sales volumes rose slightly by 0.3% in July 2022 following a fall of 0.2% in June 2022.

    Retail remains 2.3% above its pre-pandemic level http://ow.ly/aAlL50KnA8c


    People not feeling the need to tighten their belts.

    Or simply having to pay higher prices for things...
    Or stocking up.
    Indeed, expecting things to go further up in price.

    The ONS did mention that alcohol, tobacco, clothes and household goods all fell. This would suggest to me that discretionary spending is down.
    Lol, you’ve realised the logical error in your first argument.

    To be honest, that discretionary spending isn’t falling off a cliff should be a big concern.

    Of course, the media don’t see it like that. They want the story to be “people are feeling the squeeze and spending less.” They don’t like asking “well why aren’t people saving ahead of the huge energy price rises?”
    Two reasons why people aren't saving.

    A bit of denial. Despite it being one of the defining advantages for humans, the ability to anticipate and prepare for future events can be hard to use when the anticipated change is negative. People are in denial about how bad the price increases will be.

    Secondly, there's an assumption that the government will be forced by public and media pressure to fix the problem, so that there will be no disaster to prepare for. The government have done a lot to create this feeling by emphasizing how much they have done and will do to help, and so there's a complacency. The infinite capacity of government borrowing will ride to the rescue again, and all will be well.

    I have my doubts. I think a wise thing to do this winter is to consolidate homes with wider family and friends as much as possible. Have granny come to stay early for Christmas, and don't send her home until winter is over.
    All very good points. I think where I'm coming from with this is that we are utterly infantilised. Everything is framed as "why isn't the government doing more to help?" and, yes, the government helps to encourage that thinking by saying it is doing lots to help.

    We need to have an honest conversation with ourselves about how to cope with the problem we face. But ultimately it all comes back to "how are the government going to ensure that people can continue having the standard of living that they have now?"
    Yes, because we're a net importer of energy, a large increase in the price of energy means that the country as a whole is poorer.

    There's a long-term way to escape from that - invest in alternatives so we don't have to import energy - but in the short-term there isn't, but no-one dares to say so.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,610
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    Immigration has increased since Brexit and this government, which enacted Brexit, wants even more.
    Good. Do you object to controlled, increased immigration? I don't, why would you? 👍
    Read my reply in context of what I was replying to, which was that Brexit had to end free movement in order to cut immigration. If that was the government's intention then it has singularly failed.
    Talk on immigration from the sane wing of Brexiteers (ie ignoring Farage) was primarily about controlling it, not about cutting it.
    LOL x 1,000,000,000

    Farage _was_ Brexit. And - where oh where is @Isam - cutting down immigration was the main driver of Brexit.

    Look you can cover your ears and should la la la all you want but if you really think that the main driver of Brexit (rather than the fantasy land I'm not an awful person, really, state you're in now) was not about reducing immigration then you disqualify yourself from discussing politics, no matter how early you tipped Sunak to be next PM and at what odds.
    On the subject of missing posters, where are Malcy and Moon Rabbit?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,592

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    I’m not saying it’s good or bad

    I’m just saying this was the obvious realpolitik move. It also - I am sure - would have commanded a majority of British public opinion. All the Remainers and half of Leavers. A compromise. Stay in the EEA

    Instead the fucking idiots decided that cancelling the vote and telling 17.4 million people “your vote doesn’t matter, even if you won” was somehow a BETTER idea
    That is bollox and you know it. It was the Brexiters who once having won the vote decided to drive home their advantage and go for the full monty hardest Brexit they could manage. They had no magnanimity in victory, no attempt to make a compromise that would unite the country. This is because Brexiteers are essentially just like Nationalists north of the border; they are driven by hate, and division is their favourite pass time. It is why in spite of having got the vote you wanted you are still are determined to wind up the 48% that thought it was dumb, which proves to me you are still trying very hard to convince yourself. And do you know why you need to do this? Because you are not stupid enough to not realise that it was completely pointless.

    Leon it was pointless. Thick. Stupid. But we are stuck with it and many of us realise that we have to make the best of it. We will still continue to laugh at those who still genuinely believe in the Brexit Bollox, and also those like you who keep desperately trying to convince yourself.
    Some sweeping statements there Nigel. Some of us, just as committed Brexiteers as any of those making the headlines, argued both before and after the referendum that we should look for compromise even in victory. The big issue from my perspective was that, as Bart has pointed out, the person who took over after the referendum had not voted for it, did not understand it and carried all the bias of one who wasn't really interested in learning but just wanted to rule.

    There were many Brexit options available in the months after the referendum. Sadly the people making and influencing the policies had no interest or understanding of these.

    And I have no need to convince myself or anyone else of the point of Brexit. Even having been so badly mismanaged by May and Johnson it is still a far better place we are in now than we would have been in had we voted the other way.
  • Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultSorrssra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    I’m not saying it’s good or bad

    I’m just saying this was the obvious realpolitik move. It also - I am sure - would have commanded a majority of British public opinion. All the Remainers and half of Leavers. A compromise. Stay in the EEA

    Instead the fucking idiots decided that cancelling the vote and telling 17.4 million people “your vote doesn’t matter, even if you won” was somehow a BETTER idea
    That is bollox and you know it. It was the Brexiters who once having won the vote decided to drive home their advantage and go for the full monty hardest Brexit they could manage. They had no magnanimity in victory, no attempt to make a compromise that would unite the country. This is because Brexiteers are essentially just like Nationalists north of the border; they are driven by hate, and division is their favourite pass time. It is why in spite of having got the vote you wanted you are still are determined to wind up the 48% that thought it was dumb, which proves to me you are still trying very hard to convince yourself. And do you know why you need to do this? Because you are not stupid enough to not realise that it was completely pointless.

    Leon it was pointless. Thick. Stupid. But we are stuck with it and many of us realise that we have to make the best of it. We will still continue to laugh at those who still genuinely believe in the Brexit Bollox, and also those like you who keep desperately trying to convince yourself.
    Having a go at Brexiteers for driving home their advantage is like "blaming" Salah and the Liverpool players when a fixture at Old Trafford ends Manchester United 0 - 5 Liverpool.

    The Brexiteers pressing home their advantage is what they're supposed to do when they have the advantage, they were seeking what they wanted and won the vote to get it. Salah/Brexiteers didn't have a bad performance there.

    The bad performance was purely on the side of Manchester United/Remainers who abjectly failed and in doing so allowed the other side to press the advantage.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 251

    PJH said:

    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK

    Well, there's your mistake.
    Do NOT censor like that to set up a smart ass reply. It's bad practice.

    The next bit was key ... "far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party".
    Its not remotely key. There is a democratic way to remove the Tory Party, vote for another party. There is no democratic way to remove unelected supranational EU bureaucrats (if you're rejecting the notion of Brexit entirely).

    To put your faith in unelected bodies because you dislike the fact that some of your compatriots might vote for people you dislike, is not a healthy path to go down. Its downright Trumpian too, seeking to reverse election results that go "wrong".
    Tell me, how do I remove, democratically, the Permanent Secretary of the Home Office? Or Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park? Or even (dare I say it), HM the Queen?
    You may not realise this but I'm a republican who wants the House of Lords to be abolished, so perhaps not the best question to ask your question to, but all of those are in practice answerable to the elected House of Commons. And none of them can change the law without the elected Government or the Commons approving it.

    Not the case with the EU which could circumvent the Commons.
    But only by using powers the Commons had granted to it. So no difference.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,670
    edited August 19
    Plus why is everyone whining about Brexit discussions - talking to you, here, leavers.

    Take a leaf out of your role model Nigel's book. He didn't stop talking about it for decades. It is a live political debate and there are two sides to it, actually more, given differing potential relationships with the EU.

    Did you expect the Labour Party to shut up and go home after the 2019 general election? Or the Cons to disband in 1997 after the GE then? No. Of course not.

    So Brexit will continue to be discussed. And my take on it is that the eg @Leons of this world are only so vituperative about it because they are scared. A bit like a dog barking. It is doing it because it is scared most of the time.

    Don't be scared, @Leon, have confidence in your fellow citizens to handle democracy.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,254

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultSorrssra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    I’m not saying it’s good or bad

    I’m just saying this was the obvious realpolitik move. It also - I am sure - would have commanded a majority of British public opinion. All the Remainers and half of Leavers. A compromise. Stay in the EEA

    Instead the fucking idiots decided that cancelling the vote and telling 17.4 million people “your vote doesn’t matter, even if you won” was somehow a BETTER idea
    That is bollox and you know it. It was the Brexiters who once having won the vote decided to drive home their advantage and go for the full monty hardest Brexit they could manage. They had no magnanimity in victory, no attempt to make a compromise that would unite the country. This is because Brexiteers are essentially just like Nationalists north of the border; they are driven by hate, and division is their favourite pass time. It is why in spite of having got the vote you wanted you are still are determined to wind up the 48% that thought it was dumb, which proves to me you are still trying very hard to convince yourself. And do you know why you need to do this? Because you are not stupid enough to not realise that it was completely pointless.

    Leon it was pointless. Thick. Stupid. But we are stuck with it and many of us realise that we have to make the best of it. We will still continue to laugh at those who still genuinely believe in the Brexit Bollox, and also those like you who keep desperately trying to convince yourself.
    Having a go at Brexiteers for driving home their advantage is like "blaming" Salah and the Liverpool players when a fixture at Old Trafford ends Manchester United 0 - 5 Liverpool.

    The Brexiteers pressing home their advantage is what they're supposed to do when they have the advantage, they were seeking what they wanted and won the vote to get it. Salah/Brexiteers didn't have a bad performance there.

    The bad performance was purely on the side of Manchester United/Remainers who abjectly failed and in doing so allowed the other side to press the advantage.
    I fear 0-5 might be a reasonable benchmark for this weekend, sadly.
  • PJH said:

    PJH said:

    kinabalu said:

    Driver said:

    I trusted supranational EU bureaucrats to act in the best interests of most people in the UK

    Well, there's your mistake.
    Do NOT censor like that to set up a smart ass reply. It's bad practice.

    The next bit was key ... "far more than I will ever trust the Tory Party".
    Its not remotely key. There is a democratic way to remove the Tory Party, vote for another party. There is no democratic way to remove unelected supranational EU bureaucrats (if you're rejecting the notion of Brexit entirely).

    To put your faith in unelected bodies because you dislike the fact that some of your compatriots might vote for people you dislike, is not a healthy path to go down. Its downright Trumpian too, seeking to reverse election results that go "wrong".
    Tell me, how do I remove, democratically, the Permanent Secretary of the Home Office? Or Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park? Or even (dare I say it), HM the Queen?
    You may not realise this but I'm a republican who wants the House of Lords to be abolished, so perhaps not the best question to ask your question to, but all of those are in practice answerable to the elected House of Commons. And none of them can change the law without the elected Government or the Commons approving it.

    Not the case with the EU which could circumvent the Commons.
    But only by using powers the Commons had granted to it. So no difference.
    No, there is a difference.

    The EU unlike Trade Agreements or NATO or most other agreements has its own Parliament that can change the law, without recourse to the UK's elected Parliament agreeing to it.

    Now if you want to live in a country called Europe, that is entirely democratically reasonable and acceptable. A country called Europe would be better than what the EU is right now by far. But if you don't, then the EU undermines the UK's democracy.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,670
    Stocky said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    Immigration has increased since Brexit and this government, which enacted Brexit, wants even more.
    Good. Do you object to controlled, increased immigration? I don't, why would you? 👍
    Read my reply in context of what I was replying to, which was that Brexit had to end free movement in order to cut immigration. If that was the government's intention then it has singularly failed.
    Talk on immigration from the sane wing of Brexiteers (ie ignoring Farage) was primarily about controlling it, not about cutting it.
    LOL x 1,000,000,000

    Farage _was_ Brexit. And - where oh where is @Isam - cutting down immigration was the main driver of Brexit.

    Look you can cover your ears and should la la la all you want but if you really think that the main driver of Brexit (rather than the fantasy land I'm not an awful person, really, state you're in now) was not about reducing immigration then you disqualify yourself from discussing politics, no matter how early you tipped Sunak to be next PM and at what odds.
    On the subject of missing posters, where are Malcy and Moon Rabbit?
    I think MR is banned. Malcolm not sure - hope he is ok.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 27,592
    DougSeal said:

    Driver said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Absolute balderdash. That's about as much an "undeniable fact" as my arse playing the banjo. Then again it's a Leon "undeniable fact" that only hard left socialists were hurt under the PInochet regime.

    It was the Brexiteers who went for the hardest of hard Brexits from the day after the vote. EFTA/EEA would have meant keeping Free Movement which is what you all wanted to end most of all. Iw would also have meant keeping some role for the ECJ in the country. This is your mess, own it. Apologise FFS.
    No, that's not at all true. It's May (a Remainer) who went for the hardest of hard Brexits because (a) she didn't understand what drove the Leave vote any more than you do, and (b) by the time she bacame PM, too many Remainers had become second referendumers, causing most Leavers to prioritise getting any Brexit over having their vote cancelled.
    No leaver or remainer before the vote denied that exiting the EU would mean leaving the Single Market. All agreed on that. The Leave vote was driven by that fact, which meant ending free movement, as exemplified by the Farage's famous poster. Most Leavers leapt on "sovereignty" to detract from that fact. No Leaver, after June 2016, suggested staying in the Single Market.
    Not true Doug. I am on record on here of having had long arguments - most particularly with Richard Nabavi - about the benefits and practical possibilities of staying in the Single Market via EFTA and the EEA. As I like to repeat ad infinitum I wrote a piece that was pretty well received on this the day after the referendum. Richard and I spent long hours arguing about whether it was legally possible to transfer straight over (I argued it was, he not) and desirable (I think we both agreed on that)
  • DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultSorrssra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    I’m not saying it’s good or bad

    I’m just saying this was the obvious realpolitik move. It also - I am sure - would have commanded a majority of British public opinion. All the Remainers and half of Leavers. A compromise. Stay in the EEA

    Instead the fucking idiots decided that cancelling the vote and telling 17.4 million people “your vote doesn’t matter, even if you won” was somehow a BETTER idea
    That is bollox and you know it. It was the Brexiters who once having won the vote decided to drive home their advantage and go for the full monty hardest Brexit they could manage. They had no magnanimity in victory, no attempt to make a compromise that would unite the country. This is because Brexiteers are essentially just like Nationalists north of the border; they are driven by hate, and division is their favourite pass time. It is why in spite of having got the vote you wanted you are still are determined to wind up the 48% that thought it was dumb, which proves to me you are still trying very hard to convince yourself. And do you know why you need to do this? Because you are not stupid enough to not realise that it was completely pointless.

    Leon it was pointless. Thick. Stupid. But we are stuck with it and many of us realise that we have to make the best of it. We will still continue to laugh at those who still genuinely believe in the Brexit Bollox, and also those like you who keep desperately trying to convince yourself.
    Having a go at Brexiteers for driving home their advantage is like "blaming" Salah and the Liverpool players when a fixture at Old Trafford ends Manchester United 0 - 5 Liverpool.

    The Brexiteers pressing home their advantage is what they're supposed to do when they have the advantage, they were seeking what they wanted and won the vote to get it. Salah/Brexiteers didn't have a bad performance there.

    The bad performance was purely on the side of Manchester United/Remainers who abjectly failed and in doing so allowed the other side to press the advantage.
    I fear 0-5 might be a reasonable benchmark for this weekend, sadly.
    Yeah but you're playing Liverpool not Brentford so I'll be content with 0-1.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,670

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultSorrssra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    I’m not saying it’s good or bad

    I’m just saying this was the obvious realpolitik move. It also - I am sure - would have commanded a majority of British public opinion. All the Remainers and half of Leavers. A compromise. Stay in the EEA

    Instead the fucking idiots decided that cancelling the vote and telling 17.4 million people “your vote doesn’t matter, even if you won” was somehow a BETTER idea
    That is bollox and you know it. It was the Brexiters who once having won the vote decided to drive home their advantage and go for the full monty hardest Brexit they could manage. They had no magnanimity in victory, no attempt to make a compromise that would unite the country. This is because Brexiteers are essentially just like Nationalists north of the border; they are driven by hate, and division is their favourite pass time. It is why in spite of having got the vote you wanted you are still are determined to wind up the 48% that thought it was dumb, which proves to me you are still trying very hard to convince yourself. And do you know why you need to do this? Because you are not stupid enough to not realise that it was completely pointless.

    Leon it was pointless. Thick. Stupid. But we are stuck with it and many of us realise that we have to make the best of it. We will still continue to laugh at those who still genuinely believe in the Brexit Bollox, and also those like you who keep desperately trying to convince yourself.
    Having a go at Brexiteers for driving home their advantage is like "blaming" Salah and the Liverpool players when a fixture at Old Trafford ends Manchester United 0 - 5 Liverpool.

    The Brexiteers pressing home their advantage is what they're supposed to do when they have the advantage, they were seeking what they wanted and won the vote to get it. Salah/Brexiteers didn't have a bad performance there.

    The bad performance was purely on the side of Manchester United/Remainers who abjectly failed and in doing so allowed the other side to press the advantage.
    Absolutely agree. But you wouldn't expect (hope, maybe, but not expect) Manchester United to place themselves into liquidation and stop playing football.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,296

    Going back to a discussion on the previous thread, the problem with grade inflation is that it becomes more difficult to differentiate between the higher achieving candidates.

    Accademic achievement amongst the population is likely to be normally distributed. But if up to 40% are getting A or A*, then the A level results are more likely to fit a poisson distribution. It is not a good fit.

    One of the purpose of exams is to be able to differentiate between candidates, so that universities and employers are able to determine which are better.

    Currently, the A level grading system provides a lot of differentiation at low grades, but less at high grades.

    In my view it should be the opposite.

    Ah, but is that the point of grades? You are rather begging the question there. An alternative is to say that grades should indicate what a candidate is capable of (or has achieved); that a candidate with an A or A* in French is capable of doing a degree in French; that C-passers can navigate their way round Paris bistros. In that case, it makes no difference how many other school-leavers are also capable of doing degrees, reading Victor Hugo, or ordering crepes.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,964
    Nothing has changed.

    Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are morons!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,880

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    The exquisite irony, of course, is that if ultra-Remoaners like @Scott_xP had accepted the Brexit vote, and sought a compromise - rather than trying to thwart it and overturn it and demolish British democracy - they would have got their compromise. Britain would surely have stayed in the EEA/EFTA and the whole thing would feel much less Brexity. We’d be associate members.

    And any route back would have been so much easier. Now it is impossible - or the work of two generations

    This undeniable fact must gnaw at them. Daily

    Yes but it would have been a Brexit that kept free movement and therefore betrayed the working class voters who won the referendum because of a desire to cut immigration from Eastern Europe in particular
    Immigration has increased since Brexit and this government, which enacted Brexit, wants even more.
    Good. Do you object to controlled, increased immigration? I don't, why would you? 👍
    Read my reply in context of what I was replying to, which was that Brexit had to end free movement in order to cut immigration. If that was the government's intention then it has singularly failed.
    Yeah but HYUFD is like Theresa May, a Remainer, who never understood Brexit or Brexiteers and reduces it all down to reducing immigration.

    Remain-voting PMs like David Cameron and Theresa May were elected campaigning to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands but the Leave campaign (and Boris as PM) made no such commitment.

    Talk on immigration from the sane wing of Brexiteers (ie ignoring Farage) was primarily about controlling it, not about cutting it.
    The issue was control. Cameron could go on about ‘tens of thousands’ for as long as he liked, but he had no way of controlling the actual number. It was the lack of control that was the problem, not the numbers themselves.

    The context was that the minimum wage was becoming the maximum wage in a number of jobs, and that the increase in population was causing other issues with regard to housing and public services.

    No-one is going to object to the NHS going on a recruitment trip to Manila, and finding tens of thousands of English-speaking nurses and care workers.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,039
    edited August 19
    Good morning

    I want to comment on my personal cost of living and no doubt many thousand if not millions of others

    In June 21 EDF took over my Green energy (my supplier) and extended their fix term contract to Sept 21 when they offered me a fixed rate contract to September 2023. At the time the tariff near doubled but I thought it was wise to accept this deal as it would give my wife and I certainty

    We are therefore immune from energy price rises until September 23 but in October we will be awarded at least £400 in 6 instalments to April 23 plus an increased winter fuel allowance of £650 (my wife is 82). We do not qualify for pension credit or council tax £150 energy relief

    In addition to the existing £400 grant, I fully expect a considerable increase in this from October when we may find ourselves in the position that for the next year our energy will be virtually free while at the same time we are taking measures to address our usage. Additionally, the triple lock on pensions will rise by 10/11% next April

    We fully appreciate how fortunate we are and accept that in 12 months’ time we may need to fund our energy from our capital

    There will be many on this forum far more knowledgeable than I am, but surely if a good part of our population is in a similar situation then consumer spending may not fall as much as expected

    I do accept there is considerable unfairness in this, but I do not make the rules and fully supported Sunak abolition of the triple lock this year, and would do so permanently
This discussion has been closed.