politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The referendum claims its first casualty – Alex Salmond
Comments
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Ask Ed. Or his new dungeon master, Gordon Brown.Socrates said:
Regional devolution was rejected just ten years ago! Is this the EU tactic - keep asking until you get the right answer?TheWatcher said:Miliband giving a Presser now - Radio 5.
House of Lords reforms and devolution to the regions.0 -
No, that won't happen. They already have their own police force and courts.Speedy said:
The catalonian gvernment should follow the Croatian model quickly, into forming their own police, courts and most importantly army, if they don't want to be crushed by the spanish.surbiton said:
There is trouble ahead...........SouthamObserver said:The Catalonian Parliament has today passed a law to enable a referendum on independence to take place on 9th November. The central government has said it will ask Spain's constitutional court to declare it illegal, which it undoubtedly will. The Spanish PM has already made a television address in which he praised the vote in Scotland and the fact that it took place legally. Things are going to get nasty over there.
If catalonia votes for independence, or even if it tries to hold a vote, the spanish army will invade Barcelona triggering a second spanish civil war.
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Yes sometimes we can get too caught up in the drama and miss the opportunity!Pulpstar said:
Yeah know how it feels mate - same deal !Scott_P said:Alex Salmond has resigned.
Gutted.
I posted the rumour this morning. and didn't back it...
Still at least it was mentioned on PB comments for those smart enough to get money on.0 -
So much for 'get out the vote' - the two Yes cities, Dundee and Glasgow had the lowest turnouts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29255449
Chortle.....as a late (un)lamented poster would (not) observe.....0 -
@DPJHodges: The contrast between what we're hearing from Ed Miliband today, and what we were getting two weeks ago is mind-blowing.
@DPJHodges: Does EM think only people in Scotland heard him pledging accelerated home rule?0 -
The Lib Dems are strongly in favour of regional devolution as well.Socrates said:
Regional devolution was rejected just ten years ago! Is this the EU tactic - keep asking until you get the right answer?TheWatcher said:Miliband giving a Presser now - Radio 5.
House of Lords reforms and devolution to the regions.
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I still want those things. We need them. But Cameron needs to play it carefully. If he is seen to be too partisan it will backfire because the party he leads is unpopular and many voters are already suspicious of its motives.HurstLlama said:
Crumbs, Mr. O., that is a bit of a swing from your position this morning. This morning it was let us has have constitutional change and PR. This afternoon it is millions of ordinary people won't be happy about politicians talking about constitutional change and PR. What has brought that about?SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively millions of ordinary people who are still feeling economically squeezed will wonder why Cameron and the Tories are devoting so much time to efforts to engineer partisan constitutional advantage instead of focusing all their energies on developing measures to improve living standards.saddo said:Cameron has, more by luck than judgement, an enormous opportunity.
In England, he becomes the English hero, standing up for English votes on England only issues. Labour have to oppose, kick into the long grass, invent new dodgy English regional bollox etc. A very bad position for Labour, will not be popular with anyone.
In Scotland, he runs with the "Vow" at his pace, linked to English changes, which is not what Comrade Brown promised. The only direction for any anger this creates is at SLAB as there's only 1 Tory MP to rant at and its a Brown/SLAB promise anyway. Equally bad for Labour.
Then in 2015 election, voters will support the parties that are going provide the best deal & strongest negotiators. In Scotland that's the SNP; in England, the Tories. Miliband screwed.
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They want to break up england too, bas..."expletive deleted"...rds .TheWatcher said:Miliband giving a Presser now - Radio 5.
House of Lords reforms and devolution to the regions.
Since devolution has been a failure, why do more?0 -
Yep, spot on.NorthBriton said:
I think it is to do with the contrasting socio-economic profiles. I'm no expert but I suspect Dundee (and the other places that went for Yes) have a lot of DE voters who were susceptible to the Yes message for various reasons. Places like Moray, Perthshire, Angus etc are completely different - for one thing they were formerly Tory seats and retain a lot of solid unionist supporters. Clearly some of the SNP voters in these seats were unpersuaded by the economic arguments of the Yes campaign and felt it was too risky. The folk in Dundee etc probably felt they had very little to lose and hence no risk.surbiton said:
Perhaps, you could answer this question: Why didn't the YES carry what are now-a-days considered SNP territory after the 2007 and 2011 elections except Dundee ? Glasgow and North Lanarkshire would not be typical SNP territory.NorthBriton said:A couple of polling day anecdotes.
1) My wife took an elderly lady to her polling station. She was 92 years old. And this was the first time she had voted. Imagine that, 71 years without exercising the franchise.
2) My son, while voting in Edinburgh, saw polling station staff assisting an elderly lady. She was overcome with emotion. She wondered how she could possibly find herself voting to prevent her country from being broken up.
I've no doubt that there will be some Yes people feeling a degree of angst and upset today. But let's not forget the angst and upset Salmond et al have caused to so many people in the run up to this referendum.
Post-polling day anecdote:
My neighbour has just presented me with a chilled bottle of Czech beer to show his appreciation for my having stood up to be counted. Fairly made my day! (Even better than the news of the Salmond despatch.)
And I'm still marvelling at 58% in Moray.
Therefore, many SNP voters either did not vote YES or virtually everyone else voted NO.
Understanding this made trading the betfair markets hugely profitable, as more deprived urban areas posted better than expected yes% figures and less deprived rural areas went stronger for no. People got carried away correlating yes% with the 2011 SNP %.
Look at figure 1 (page 6) here:
http://www.dundeepartnership.co.uk/sites/default/files/SIMD12_Analysis.pdf0 -
Because the promise made by all three leaders - including Miliband - to the Scottish people means we self-evidently need an English (and Welsh and NI) answer.SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively millions of ordinary people who are still feeling economically squeezed will wonder why Cameron and the Tories are devoting so much time to efforts to engineer partisan constitutional advantage instead of focusing all their energies on developing measures to improve living standards.saddo said:Cameron has, more by luck than judgement, an enormous opportunity.
In England, he becomes the English hero, standing up for English votes on England only issues. Labour have to oppose, kick into the long grass, invent new dodgy English regional bollox etc. A very bad position for Labour, will not be popular with anyone.
In Scotland, he runs with the "Vow" at his pace, linked to English changes, which is not what Comrade Brown promised. The only direction for any anger this creates is at SLAB as there's only 1 Tory MP to rant at and its a Brown/SLAB promise anyway. Equally bad for Labour.
Then in 2015 election, voters will support the parties that are going provide the best deal & strongest negotiators. In Scotland that's the SNP; in England, the Tories. Miliband screwed.
Millions of people will be wondering why Miliband's convened talking-shop is filled with lackeys and vested interests. They will also wonder why a 'leader' is so inept at, well, leading.
According to LabourList, Miliband says:"A peoples convention for Britain – keeping promises, but also extending promise – can give all of our citizens a say, a stake and an opportunity to take the power from the elites and place it back into their hands."
I presume the 'a say' bit means there will be a referendum on any (if any) result of the committee's findings? Or does it just mean that the talking-shop will pretend to take into account everyone's views?
And I hate to break it to Miliband, but he is one of the 'elite'.
The guy is a sh*t of the highest order. I mean Brown was a hopeless leader, but Miliband's just taken incompetence and general sh*tness to a lower level.0 -
"The regions" don't want devolution. They just want EV4EL.TheWatcher said:Miliband giving a Presser now - Radio 5.
House of Lords reforms and devolution to the regions.
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After failing to break up the UK, Salmond fuks off, to leave others to pick up the pieces. I go off to catch up on my sleep and miss the fun. grrr.0
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What about their own army?SouthamObserver said:
No, that won't happen. They already have their own police force and courts.Speedy said:
The catalonian gvernment should follow the Croatian model quickly, into forming their own police, courts and most importantly army, if they don't want to be crushed by the spanish.surbiton said:
There is trouble ahead...........SouthamObserver said:The Catalonian Parliament has today passed a law to enable a referendum on independence to take place on 9th November. The central government has said it will ask Spain's constitutional court to declare it illegal, which it undoubtedly will. The Spanish PM has already made a television address in which he praised the vote in Scotland and the fact that it took place legally. Things are going to get nasty over there.
If catalonia votes for independence, or even if it tries to hold a vote, the spanish army will invade Barcelona triggering a second spanish civil war.
Spain will attack if they try to leave.0 -
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The Scottish has also suffered in the meantime from an investment freeze because possible investors were waiting for the outcome.SeanT said:
It doesn't really matter. The UK came close to breaking up, a possibility that the Establishment (lazily, and complacently) had dismissed out of hand.Carnyx said:
Indeed, and if we use the 'might get a passport' and take the White Paper proposals as an example, grandchildren too would qualify. Which would make it a terribly blood and soil referendum. (We've discussed some of this before, somewhwer erecently, of course.)surbiton said:
Who will qualify as a "Scot" living in rUK ?Socrates said:
I can't imagine the powers that be ever being stupid enough to exclude Scots living in rUK from the electorate again.rottenborough said:
Sorry, there'll be no referendum in 10 years. It has gone for a generation as Cameron has said, indeed a lifetime. In order for there to be sufficient pressure to change this result within our lifetimes there would have to be the clear, settled will of the Scots to vote again and vote 'Yes'. This would mean, to my mind, polls consistently showing 70 or 80% in favour of separation and a clear mandate from across all of the political parties. It aint gonna happen.Danny565 said:Quite shocking.
I do think Nicola Sturgeon leading would give them a better chance in the next independence referendum (inevitably within the next 10 years surely?). Salmond might be better at firing up the diehard nationalists, but I feel Sturgeon would've appealed more to the more moderate people who liked the idea of a more "left-wing" state but were turned off by Salmond's tub-thumping "us vs them" approach.
They will not be so clumsy next time. If there is a referendum in, say, 15 years then you can be sure that London will be totally aware of all the dangers, from the off, and Westminster will fight hard from the beginning to get more favourable terms, such as including rUK Scots in the vote.
What will Holyrood do, appeal to the UN?
Anyway, it is fairly theoretical right now. I can't imagine there will be appetite, in Scotland, for another huge, destabilising, heart-rending referendum for quite some time.0 -
And Miliband;s gambit isn't partisan? Who selects the politicians, members of 'civil society' and the public who sit on the committees and the convention? Who frames the terms of reference?SouthamObserver said:
I still want those things. We need them. But Cameron needs to play it carefully. If he is seen to be too partisan it will backfire because the party he leads is unpopular and many voters are already suspicious of its motives.HurstLlama said:
Crumbs, Mr. O., that is a bit of a swing from your position this morning. This morning it was let us has have constitutional change and PR. This afternoon it is millions of ordinary people won't be happy about politicians talking about constitutional change and PR. What has brought that about?SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively millions of ordinary people who are still feeling economically squeezed will wonder why Cameron and the Tories are devoting so much time to efforts to engineer partisan constitutional advantage instead of focusing all their energies on developing measures to improve living standards.saddo said:Cameron has, more by luck than judgement, an enormous opportunity.
In England, he becomes the English hero, standing up for English votes on England only issues. Labour have to oppose, kick into the long grass, invent new dodgy English regional bollox etc. A very bad position for Labour, will not be popular with anyone.
In Scotland, he runs with the "Vow" at his pace, linked to English changes, which is not what Comrade Brown promised. The only direction for any anger this creates is at SLAB as there's only 1 Tory MP to rant at and its a Brown/SLAB promise anyway. Equally bad for Labour.
Then in 2015 election, voters will support the parties that are going provide the best deal & strongest negotiators. In Scotland that's the SNP; in England, the Tories. Miliband screwed.
The whole thing will be one massively expensive waste of time, just to come to the conclusion that Miliband wants: NFA.0 -
There's no appetite for regional devolution (English Balkanisation). The only motivation I can see for it is to prevent the Westminster Prime Minister from dealing with an English First Minister with significant power. Personally I think that such creative tension would be very positive - like the relationship between Boris Johnson and Cameron on steroids.TheWatcher said:Miliband giving a Presser now - Radio 5.
House of Lords reforms and devolution to the regions.0 -
in other news.
James Reed @JamesReedYP 2m
Joyce Thacker leaving "with immediate effect" #Rotherham #localgov
Thacker believes that no one will notice....0 -
Miliband will just want to pack it full of Common Purpose graduates to ensure the right answerJosiasJessop said:
And Miliband;s gambit isn't partisan? Who selects the politicians, members of 'civil society' and the public who sit on the committees and the convention? Who frames the terms of reference?SouthamObserver said:
I still want those things. We need them. But Cameron needs to play it carefully. If he is seen to be too partisan it will backfire because the party he leads is unpopular and many voters are already suspicious of its motives.HurstLlama said:
Crumbs, Mr. O., that is a bit of a swing from your position this morning. This morning it was let us has have constitutional change and PR. This afternoon it is millions of ordinary people won't be happy about politicians talking about constitutional change and PR. What has brought that about?SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively millions of ordinary people who are still feeling economically squeezed will wonder why Cameron and the Tories are devoting so much time to efforts to engineer partisan constitutional advantage instead of focusing all their energies on developing measures to improve living standards.saddo said:Cameron has, more by luck than judgement, an enormous opportunity.
In England, he becomes the English hero, standing up for English votes on England only issues. Labour have to oppose, kick into the long grass, invent new dodgy English regional bollox etc. A very bad position for Labour, will not be popular with anyone.
In Scotland, he runs with the "Vow" at his pace, linked to English changes, which is not what Comrade Brown promised. The only direction for any anger this creates is at SLAB as there's only 1 Tory MP to rant at and its a Brown/SLAB promise anyway. Equally bad for Labour.
Then in 2015 election, voters will support the parties that are going provide the best deal & strongest negotiators. In Scotland that's the SNP; in England, the Tories. Miliband screwed.
The whole thing will be one massively expensive waste of time, just to come to the conclusion that Miliband wants: NFA.0 -
The good news today just got better - better still if she got jail time.dr_spyn said:in other news.
James Reed @JamesReedYP 2m
Joyce Thacker leaving "with immediate effect" #Rotherham #localgov
Thacker believes that no one will notice....0 -
The line was that she was Ill...dr_spyn said:in other news.
James Reed @JamesReedYP 2m
Joyce Thacker leaving "with immediate effect" #Rotherham #localgov
Thacker believes that no one will notice....
I hope she isn't seriously ill, but if there is nothing wrong, you have to wonder why they need to change stories...
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There probably needs to be some constitutional change for England. Regional devolution perhaps. But it's something that needs to be done carefully over time, separately from the Scotland issue obviously.SouthamObserver said:
I still want those things. We need them. But Cameron needs to play it carefully. If he is seen to be too partisan it will backfire because the party he leads is unpopular and many voters are already suspicious of its motives.HurstLlama said:
Crumbs, Mr. O., that is a bit of a swing from your position this morning. This morning it was let us has have constitutional change and PR. This afternoon it is millions of ordinary people won't be happy about politicians talking about constitutional change and PR. What has brought that about?SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively millions of ordinary people who are still feeling economically squeezed will wonder why Cameron and the Tories are devoting so much time to efforts to engineer partisan constitutional advantage instead of focusing all their energies on developing measures to improve living standards.saddo said:Cameron has, more by luck than judgement, an enormous opportunity.
In England, he becomes the English hero, standing up for English votes on England only issues. Labour have to oppose, kick into the long grass, invent new dodgy English regional bollox etc. A very bad position for Labour, will not be popular with anyone.
In Scotland, he runs with the "Vow" at his pace, linked to English changes, which is not what Comrade Brown promised. The only direction for any anger this creates is at SLAB as there's only 1 Tory MP to rant at and its a Brown/SLAB promise anyway. Equally bad for Labour.
Then in 2015 election, voters will support the parties that are going provide the best deal & strongest negotiators. In Scotland that's the SNP; in England, the Tories. Miliband screwed.
Opportunistically rigging the UK parliament in favour of Tory interests is not the answer to any question, apart from the ones that exist in Gideon's "strategic" brain.0 -
I can see why he's resigned. Scottish Independence was his life's work. Now that vision has been rejected what is there left to do? Carry on running a devolved Scottish government? For Salmond devolution was only ever a means to an end, not the end itself.dr_spyn said:After failing to break up the UK, Salmond fuks off, to leave others to pick up the pieces. I go off to catch up on my sleep and miss the fun. grrr.
Good for him for having the courage of his convictions and standing down.
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Good evening, everyone.
Miliband's a pathetic little weasel. He just wants to spread this out into so many areas when Cameron's approach (whilst not perfect, lacking a Parliament and requiring a well-defined idea of what 'only' affects England) is much better.
The Conservatives must hammer the weasel Miliband for trying to avoid giving England equality with Scotland.
Mr. Glenn, you're quite right. Carving up England is a despicable notion.0 -
Poor Rupert, all that time invested in Salmond and now he buggers off.0 -
Unionists need to play this carefully and get it right I think. I've little doubt that some No voters will be feeling stitched up already, on Day 1.
The Scotland issue will come to a head again, possibly much sooner than many think. And a lot of people who really swung it for No - the oldies - won't even be alive next time.
The early signs, with Cameron's petty partisan opportunism, are not encouraging.0 -
I can imagine Miliband as a spotty teenager on the streets of North London, drinking a Latte and shouting:
"What do we want?"
"Change!"
"And when do we want it?"
"After regional committees and a constitutional convention!"
"Why do we want it?"
"So we don't have to do anything!"
"Why?"
"'Cos we quite like things the way they are!"
... Then he realises he is on his own, and people on the Number 17 bus are staring at him.0 -
Hat-tip for political punters, from the New York Times, no less.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/20/upshot/scotlands-no-vote-a-loss-for-pollsters-and-a-win-for-betting-markets.html?contentCollection=world&action=click&module=NextInCollection®ion=Footer&pgtype=article&abt=0002&abg=0
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Holyrood? Maybe?surbiton said:
What are the odds on Labour winning both Wesminster and Holyrood ?Beverley_C said:Well, it is not really a surprise. He had left politics before and then came back when the SNP started to do very poorly, so it is not surprising that he is going again.
Hopefully, the SNP will revert to their previous state as a fringe party.
Westminster? Unlikely if Cameron keeps up the momentum for EV4EL
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A mental exercise into the uselessness of devolution:
So if Labour breaks up the country into small units, because people don't want to governed by the capital of the country, what happens if regions inside the devolved regions don't like to governed by the regions capital (aka Shetland/Scotland)?
Should we devolve the devolving regions even more?
And what happens if regions in the devolved devolved regions don't like to be governed by the capital of the devolved devolved region?
Should we devolve them even more?
In the end we will have hundreds of devolved regions and how will the country be governed?
I know, lets have a council or assembly of those elected rulers of the hundreds of devolved regions, perhaps we could call it parliament and the elected rulers MP's.0 -
F1: seems storms possible tomorrow and Sunday. I'll try and remember to check the forecast.0
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I have no doubt that Scotland will be independent within the next 50 years.
It's inevitable.0 -
Of course it's partisan. As usual all the Westminster parties are looking for the best way to engineer the situation to their advantage rather than work together to create something that is durable and everyone can support. It's exactly this kind of thing that put the Union in peril and which alienates swathes of voters across the UK.JosiasJessop said:
And Miliband;s gambit isn't partisan? Who selects the politicians, members of 'civil society' and the public who sit on the committees and the convention? Who frames the terms of reference?SouthamObserver said:
I still want those things. We need them. But Cameron needs to play it carefully. If he is seen to be too partisan it will backfire because the party he leads is unpopular and many voters are already suspicious of its motives.HurstLlama said:
Crumbs, Mr. O., that is a bit of a swing from your position this morning. This morning it was let us has have constitutional change and PR. This afternoon it is millions of ordinary people won't be happy about politicians talking about constitutional change and PR. What has brought that about?SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively millions of ordinary people who are still feeling economically squeezed will wonder why Cameron and the Tories are devoting so much time to efforts to engineer partisan constitutional advantage instead of focusing all their energies on developing measures to improve living standards.saddo said:Cameron has, more by luck than judgement, an enormous opportunity.
In England, he becomes the English hero, standing up for English votes on England only issues. Labour have to oppose, kick into the long grass, invent new dodgy English regional bollox etc. A very bad position for Labour, will not be popular with anyone.
In Scotland, he runs with the "Vow" at his pace, linked to English changes, which is not what Comrade Brown promised. The only direction for any anger this creates is at SLAB as there's only 1 Tory MP to rant at and its a Brown/SLAB promise anyway. Equally bad for Labour.
Then in 2015 election, voters will support the parties that are going provide the best deal & strongest negotiators. In Scotland that's the SNP; in England, the Tories. Miliband screwed.
The whole thing will be one massively expensive waste of time, just to come to the conclusion that Miliband wants: NFA.
Labour is going to get burned on this and the Tories will end up entrenching anti-Tory feeling. A proper constitutional settlement is what we need so that the issue can be put to bed. But our leaders are not grown-up enough for that, so instead we will get bickering, petty point scoring and years of tampering depending on who is in power. It's a complete joke.
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Try a similar mental exercise with the implications of only allowing certain MPs vote on certain issues.Speedy said:A mental exercise into the uselessness of devolution:
So if Labour breaks up the country into small units, because people don't want to governed by the capital of the country, what happens if regions inside the devolved regions don't like to governed by the regions capital (aka Shetland/Scotland)?
Should we devolve the devolving regions even more?
And what happens if regions in the devolved devolved regions don't like to be governed by the capital of the devolved devolved region?
Should we devolve them even more?
In the end we will have hundreds of devolved regions and how will the country be governed?
I know, lets have a council or assembly of those elected rulers of the hundreds of devolved regions, perhaps we could call it parliament and the elected rulers MP's.0 -
They can't leave. UDI would make Catalonia a pariah state.Speedy said:
What about their own army?SouthamObserver said:
No, that won't happen. They already have their own police force and courts.Speedy said:
The catalonian gvernment should follow the Croatian model quickly, into forming their own police, courts and most importantly army, if they don't want to be crushed by the spanish.surbiton said:
There is trouble ahead...........SouthamObserver said:The Catalonian Parliament has today passed a law to enable a referendum on independence to take place on 9th November. The central government has said it will ask Spain's constitutional court to declare it illegal, which it undoubtedly will. The Spanish PM has already made a television address in which he praised the vote in Scotland and the fact that it took place legally. Things are going to get nasty over there.
If catalonia votes for independence, or even if it tries to hold a vote, the spanish army will invade Barcelona triggering a second spanish civil war.
Spain will attack if they try to leave.
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It is easy to forget now that had the result gone the other way it could well have been Cameron tendering his resignation. Yet, despite all the criticism he has faced, Cameron has claimed his third victim in Alex Salmond, who joins David Davis and Gordon Brown on his list of vanquished opponents. If he adds Ed Miliband to that trio next year, his place in history is assured!0
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So the "vow" isn't delivered before May 2015 and we go into the general election with the Tories committing to EV4EL and an in/out vote in 2017... And UKIP still striving to defeat them... UKIP, The party that won't take yes for an answer....0
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PB at its finest today.
1) The Union is saved
2) Labours nemesis in its heartland resigns
=
Disaster for Labour!!0 -
The 55-45 No victory margin is also the same margin by which the monarchists' won the 1999 Australian Republic Referendum0
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Welcome to the history of the British Constitution :-)SouthamObserver said:
Of course it's partisan. As usual all the Westminster parties are looking for the best way to engineer the situation to their advantage rather than work together to create something that is durable and everyone can support. It's exactly this kind of thing that put the Union in peril and which alienates swathes of voters across the UK.JosiasJessop said:
And Miliband;s gambit isn't partisan? Who selects the politicians, members of 'civil society' and the public who sit on the committees and the convention? Who frames the terms of reference?SouthamObserver said:
I still want those things. We need them. But Cameron needs to play it carefully. If he is seen to be too partisan it will backfire because the party he leads is unpopular and many voters are already suspicious of its motives.HurstLlama said:
Crumbs, Mr. O., that is a bit of a swing from your position this morning. This morning it was let us has have constitutional change and PR. This afternoon it is millions of ordinary people won't be happy about politicians talking about constitutional change and PR. What has brought that about?SouthamObserver said:
Alternatively millions of ordinary people who are still feeling economically squeezed will wonder why Cameron and the Tories are devoting so much time to efforts to engineer partisan constitutional advantage instead of focusing all their energies on developing measures to improve living standards.saddo said:Cameron has, more by luck than judgement, an enormous opportunity.
[snip]
The whole thing will be one massively expensive waste of time, just to come to the conclusion that Miliband wants: NFA.
Labour is going to get burned on this and the Tories will end up entrenching anti-Tory feeling. A proper constitutional settlement is what we need so that the issue can be put to bed. But our leaders are not grown-up enough for that, so instead we will get bickering, petty point scoring and years of tampering depending on who is in power. It's a complete joke.
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Cameron produces a Bill in January, designed by Lord Smith and piloted by William Hague that gives the Scots more powers and enshrines EVFEL into law...
Miliband is going to vote against this? UKIP are going to oppose this?
Trap? What Trap?0 -
Mr. Pong, likely, but perhaps not inevitable. Tell a Roman during the Crisis of the Third Century the Empire (in one form or another) would last for more than a thousand years more and they wouldn't've believed you.
Mr. Observer, if Labour had actually thought about devolution beyond trying to create a couple of Celtic fiefdoms for itself we wouldn't be in this mess.0 -
Alternatively that's it, the best opportunity ever. Since next time:Pong said:I have no doubt that Scotland will be independent within the next 50 years.
It's inevitable.
No Salmond
No Cameron
No oil
No complacency
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Wasn't it ignoring the don't knows that caused the polls to be wrong? You can't really just ignore them, that's like allocating them 50/50....I think Dan a Hodges was on the money with thisPeter_the_Punter said:Hat-tip for political punters, from the New York Times, no less.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/20/upshot/scotlands-no-vote-a-loss-for-pollsters-and-a-win-for-betting-markets.html?contentCollection=world&action=click&module=NextInCollection®ion=Footer&pgtype=article&abt=0002&abg=00 -
"We Demand a New Referendum 'cos it was Rigged" Petition now at 51,000 signatures. Almost all the sigs are coming from Scotland.
That's 10,000 more in 2 hours. 1% of Scottish Population and counting...
https://www.change.org/p/alex-salmond-we-the-undersigned-demand-a-revote-of-the-scottish-referendum-counted-by-impartial-international-parties
We'll get a count of the core Salmond Beliebers yet...0 -
There will not be another referendum in the next twenty years or more. I just isn't going to happen. I think Sean is probably right as well about the No majority. The 'Yes' surge will fade. It's reached its high point, at least in our lifetimes.SeanT said:
Whoever wins the next election will devolve new powers to Scotland, all parties are committed to that - so Scots won't feel short-changed. The difference is that the Tories want to do it in a way that is fair to England, but Labour don't, so the English WILL feel short-changed - by Labour - which means the Tories are more likely to win the next election.Hugh said:Unionists need to play this carefully and get it right I think. I've little doubt that some No voters will be feeling stitched up already, on Day 1.
The Scotland issue will come to a head again, possibly much sooner than many think. And a lot of people who really swung it for No - the oldies - won't even be alive next time.
The early signs, with Cameron's petty partisan opportunism, are not encouraging.
You know all this.
Also young people become old. Their idealistic opinions likewise change to those commonly held by old people.
Old people are always more conservative and risk-averse. And Scotland is an ageing country, so it's quite likely the NO majority will grow.0 -
Yes did that. In fact I did it the first time Labour trotted out the, "You can't have two classes of MP" argument. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. The difference being that things have moved on since those early days of devolution, what could have been quietly buried then is now in full public view. If Labour want to come up with the same arguments then they might find they don't work as well.Hugh said:
Try a similar mental exercise with the implications of only allowing certain MPs vote on certain issues.Speedy said:A mental exercise into the uselessness of devolution:
So if Labour breaks up the country into small units, because people don't want to governed by the capital of the country, what happens if regions inside the devolved regions don't like to governed by the regions capital (aka Shetland/Scotland)?
Should we devolve the devolving regions even more?
And what happens if regions in the devolved devolved regions don't like to be governed by the capital of the devolved devolved region?
Should we devolve them even more?
In the end we will have hundreds of devolved regions and how will the country be governed?
I know, lets have a council or assembly of those elected rulers of the hundreds of devolved regions, perhaps we could call it parliament and the elected rulers MP's.0 -
Sick leave for Joyce Thacker on Monday, great day to step aside.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-292866380 -
The catalans want to leave, their government wants to leave. The only thing that can prevent them is the spanish army.SouthamObserver said:
They can't leave. UDI would make Catalonia a pariah state.Speedy said:
What about their own army?SouthamObserver said:
No, that won't happen. They already have their own police force and courts.Speedy said:
The catalonian gvernment should follow the Croatian model quickly, into forming their own police, courts and most importantly army, if they don't want to be crushed by the spanish.surbiton said:
There is trouble ahead...........SouthamObserver said:The Catalonian Parliament has today passed a law to enable a referendum on independence to take place on 9th November. The central government has said it will ask Spain's constitutional court to declare it illegal, which it undoubtedly will. The Spanish PM has already made a television address in which he praised the vote in Scotland and the fact that it took place legally. Things are going to get nasty over there.
If catalonia votes for independence, or even if it tries to hold a vote, the spanish army will invade Barcelona triggering a second spanish civil war.
Spain will attack if they try to leave.
I always wondered how Spain hasn't suffered a civil war or a revolution with an economic collapse of that magnitute, perhaps it will have one now.
0 -
Wasn't it Stuart Dickson who suggested the majority of DK's would end up leaning towards 'Yes', in a Tipping Point post?isam said:
Wasn't it ignoring the don't knows that caused the polls to be wrong? You can't really just ignore them, that's like allocating them 50/50....I think Dan a Hodges was on the money with thisPeter_the_Punter said:Hat-tip for political punters, from the New York Times, no less.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/20/upshot/scotlands-no-vote-a-loss-for-pollsters-and-a-win-for-betting-markets.html?contentCollection=world&action=click&module=NextInCollection®ion=Footer&pgtype=article&abt=0002&abg=0
0 -
Things aren't great for labour though.IOS said:PB at its finest today.
1) The Union is saved
2) Labours nemesis in its heartland resigns
=
Disaster for Labour!!
The indyref has exposed how susceptible the British WWC DE demographic is to a respectable, nationalist, feck-em-all agenda.
England is ripe for UKIP. Sadly.0 -
Chortling at this idea that Labour will be "killed" in England for opposing "EV4EL". It's too complicated and seemingly irrelevant for the public to pick up on it. People outside the Westminster bubble just don't understand the arcane workings of Parliament -- we saw that with the boundaries issue, where the Tory commentariat were excitedly proclaiming how bad it was for Labour, but it made no impression on the public at all.
What COULD be a fruitful issue for politicians is opposing the higher spending Scotland (allegedly) gets, since that IS something the "layman" can understand easily. And UKIP might well get some extra support if they push that angle (though it's hard to see how the Tories could given Cameron's "vow"). But even for English people who resent Scotland getting a better deal, it won't be immediately obvious to them why tinkering with parliamentary proceedures would deal with the issue at all, and it would involve some long technical explanation which would make most people switch off.
(repost from previous thread before the Salmond bombshell overwhelmed it)
0 -
Is this a joke? 50,000 people really think the count was rigged? Unbelievable. Of course Neil Armstrong didn't go to the moon, it was all filmed in the Nevada desert etc etc.MattW said:"We Demand a New Referendum 'cos it was Rigged" Petition now at 51,000 signatures. Almost all the sigs are coming from Scotland.
That's 10,000 more in 2 hours. 1% of Scottish Population and counting...
https://www.change.org/p/alex-salmond-we-the-undersigned-demand-a-revote-of-the-scottish-referendum-counted-by-impartial-international-parties
We'll get a count of the core Salmond Beliebers yet...0 -
I agree. Labour is not a party I can currently support or defend. However, as someone who believes in the Union I want to see a constitutional settlement that will endure and which will not constantly be changed depending on who is in power.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Pong, likely, but perhaps not inevitable. Tell a Roman during the Crisis of the Third Century the Empire (in one form or another) would last for more than a thousand years more and they wouldn't've believed you.
Mr. Observer, if Labour had actually thought about devolution beyond trying to create a couple of Celtic fiefdoms for itself we wouldn't be in this mess.
0 -
What are you rambling on about, Cameron has put a credible person in charge of leading the devomax charge. Scots that I know at work seem content at the moment and are sympathetic to Dave tying it to EV4EL even though the prevailing opinion is for an English Parliament outside of London. Salmond himself has praised the guy Cameron has put in charge of the devomax draft legislation. Hardly anything to feel stitched up about.Hugh said:Unionists need to play this carefully and get it right I think. I've little doubt that some No voters will be feeling stitched up already, on Day 1.
The Scotland issue will come to a head again, possibly much sooner than many think. And a lot of people who really swung it for No - the oldies - won't even be alive next time.
The early signs, with Cameron's petty partisan opportunism, are not encouraging.0 -
Sorry to say it but I saw this in Salmond's eyes yesterday in a photo in the Guardian. He looked empty and defeated just a frisson but it was there and now I'm not so sure it was (only?) because of how the polling was going.0
-
If the Tories push for Devomax without anything for england, it will be them who would be ripe for UKIP.Pong said:
Things aren't great for labour though.IOS said:PB at its finest today.
1) The Union is saved
2) Labours nemesis in its heartland resigns
=
Disaster for Labour!!
The indyref has exposed how susceptible the British WWC DE demographic is to a respectable, nationalist, feck-em-all agenda.
England is ripe for UKIP. Sadly.
0 -
Sacked or pushed, the Jo Moore school of Media Management award goes to Rotherham Council.
http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/news/article/254/statement_regarding_joyce_thacker0 -
Maybe that's why Labour want to give votes to 16-17 year olds... Even more partisan when you think it was Sadiq Khan suggested itSeanT said:
Whoever wins the next election will devolve new powers to Scotland, all parties are committed to that - so Scots won't feel short-changed. The difference is that the Tories want to do it in a way that is fair to England, but Labour don't, so the English WILL feel short-changed - by Labour - which means the Tories are more likely to win the next election.Hugh said:Unionists need to play this carefully and get it right I think. I've little doubt that some No voters will be feeling stitched up already, on Day 1.
The Scotland issue will come to a head again, possibly much sooner than many think. And a lot of people who really swung it for No - the oldies - won't even be alive next time.
The early signs, with Cameron's petty partisan opportunism, are not encouraging.
You know all this.
Also young people become old. Their idealistic opinions likewise change to those commonly held by old people.
Old people are always more conservative and risk-averse. And Scotland is an ageing country, so it's quite likely the NO majority will grow.
Agenda?
The plot thickens0 -
@Morris Dancer
"Tell a Roman during the Crisis of the Third Century the Empire (in one form or another) would last for more than a thousand years more and they wouldn't've believed you."
Surely a Roman would have been right to have been disbelieving. An empire of sorts based on a capital city hundreds of miles from his home may have lasted for another 1,000 years. However, his home would be put to the torch and his family slaughtered rather sooner.0 -
How do you leave a country? Catalonia is surrounded by Spain, France and the sea. It needs a currency, it needs to import and export, it needs to communicate with the rest of the world, it needs access to energy supplies, it needs international recognition and so on. UDI would put unfettered access to all of these things in doubt. There is no need for any invasions.Speedy said:
The catalans want to leave, their government wants to leave. The only thing that can prevent them is the spanish army.SouthamObserver said:
They can't leave. UDI would make Catalonia a pariah state.Speedy said:
What about their own army?SouthamObserver said:
No, that won't happen. They already have their own police force and courts.Speedy said:
The catalonian gvernment should follow the Croatian model quickly, into forming their own police, courts and most importantly army, if they don't want to be crushed by the spanish.surbiton said:
There is trouble ahead...........SouthamObserver said:The Catalonian Parliament has today passed a law to enable a referendum on independence to take place on 9th November. The central government has said it will ask Spain's constitutional court to declare it illegal, which it undoubtedly will. The Spanish PM has already made a television address in which he praised the vote in Scotland and the fact that it took place legally. Things are going to get nasty over there.
If catalonia votes for independence, or even if it tries to hold a vote, the spanish army will invade Barcelona triggering a second spanish civil war.
Spain will attack if they try to leave.
I always wondered how Spain hasn't suffered a civil war or a revolution with an economic collapse of that magnitute, perhaps it will have one now.
0 -
Reading that you wouldn't have any idea which party she was from would you.dr_spyn said:Sick leave for Joyce Thacker on Monday, great day to step aside.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-292866380 -
EV4EL is logical enough ( not as good as a parliament ) as a response to the lopsided nature if the 1999 devolution arrangements. You simply cannot have it fairly without doing it both ways round. We might've accepted a minor bodge 1922-72 for the tiny1.5m then in N Ireland but a bodge including about 15% of the UK was always unstable and unfair. A gerrymander. To those who say EV4EL is "building electoral advantage" where have you been for 15 years ? There was much ballyhoo that the Scots and a Welsh didn't get who they voted for as governments in the 80's and 90's, well neither did the English in 2010 ( leaving aside the shocking nature of the popular vote v seats in 2005).
If you created devolution as answer to a problem, fair enough, but to last it has to be fair. And sending MP's from Scotland and Wales to extract cash from England's SE quadrant with no balance the other way simply isn't , and I say that as a grateful beneficiary of their largesse. The SE is an easy target but we'd all be a bloody sight poorer collectively without them.0 -
don't forget PBTories are always wrong about everything ..... oh wait.SeanT said:
Predicting a political event "at some time in the next 50 years" is about as useful as saying we will "run out of oil before coal". I mean, on present trends, that is possibly and theoretically true, but any number of things could happen in the interim to stop it happening, or render the entire question even more irrelevant than it is now.Alanbrooke said:
Alternatively that's it, the best opportunity ever. Since next time:Pong said:I have no doubt that Scotland will be independent within the next 50 years.
It's inevitable.
No Salmond
No Cameron
No oil
No complacency0 -
An English Parliament elected on the basis of PR and constituency top ups. I see no problem with that at all. No-one is proposing it though.john_zims said:@Hugh
'Try a similar mental exercise with the implications of only allowing certain MPs vote on certain issues.'
We just need the same deal in England that Labour gave to Scotland & Wales & for the end to the existing two classes of MP's at Westminster..
0 -
Mr. Observer, it would be nice to see.
Mr. Llama, I did say 'in one form or another'. Besides, at what point did the Empire cease being continuous? With Constantine? Arcadius and Honorius? When the West fell and the East did not? When the Exarchate lost Rome?0 -
Not just WWC, all racesPong said:
Things aren't great for labour though.IOS said:PB at its finest today.
1) The Union is saved
2) Labours nemesis in its heartland resigns
=
Disaster for Labour!!
The indyref has exposed how susceptible the British WWC DE demographic is to a respectable, nationalist, feck-em-all agenda.
England is ripe for UKIP. Sadly.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/feb/27/support-poll-support-far-right0 -
Pong
Sure Labour has got some work to do. Not denying that at all. But you know. Come on, this is about a good as result as possible.0 -
Whatever happened to the prediction of an Anglo Russian War at the beginning of The Twentieth Century?Alanbrooke said:
don't forget PBTories are always wrong about everything ..... oh wait.SeanT said:
Predicting a political event "at some time in the next 50 years" is about as useful as saying we will "run out of oil before coal". I mean, on present trends, that is possibly and theoretically true, but any number of things could happen in the interim to stop it happening, or render the entire question even more irrelevant than it is now.Alanbrooke said:
Alternatively that's it, the best opportunity ever. Since next time:Pong said:I have no doubt that Scotland will be independent within the next 50 years.
It's inevitable.
No Salmond
No Cameron
No oil
No complacency
0 -
@rottenborough I agree with you and I am baffled by SO's comments. I've only time for one comment, but briefly:
1867 Reform Act, which conceded the principle of wide manhood suffrage: passed by a minority Conservative government urgently seeking partisan advantage against a Whig/Radical proposal that would have deliberately gerrymandered the electoral system in their favour by effectively recreating rotten boroughs.
1918 Representation of the Peoples Act, universal manhood suffrage (apart from COs) and wide female suffrage - passed by a coalition government desperate to cash in on their wartime popularity among those groups.
1928 RotP Act, giving universal suffrage at 21 - passed by a Conservative government desperate to try and lure the young female vote away from Labour (ignore the silly myth that it was in response to an absent minded pledge by Baldwin or Joynson-Hicks, that was a lie made up by a drug-addled forger and plagiarist forty years later).
Nobody really remembers why they came about. They only care that they came.
If Cameron can finally sort out the hotchpotch of failure, compromise, ineptitude and bare-faced unfairness that characterises the current UK governmental system, no-one will care that he did it to shaft Ed Miliband.
Of course, nobody will thank him for it either - but the fact that nobody remembers the 14th Earl of Derby as the man who revolutionised British politics in 1867 with the help of Disraeli in order to shaft Russell and Gladstone doesn't make his contribution any the less significant.0 -
@Danny565
'Chortling at this idea that Labour will be "killed" in England for opposing "EV4EL". It's too complicated and seemingly irrelevant for the public to pick up on it'
Voters too stupid to understand English votes for English laws,I suppose it's a view or maybe just wishful thinking.0 -
They would do it adhoc like Croatia, plus the rest of the world (bar the EU) would recognise catalonia (Morocco and Russia certainly would).SouthamObserver said:
How do you leave a country? Catalonia is surrounded by Spain, France and the sea. It needs a currency, it needs to import and export, it needs to communicate with the rest of the world, it needs access to energy supplies, it needs international recognition and so on. UDI would put unfettered access to all of these things in doubt. There is no need for any invasions.Speedy said:
The catalans want to leave, their government wants to leave. The only thing that can prevent them is the spanish army.SouthamObserver said:
They can't leave. UDI would make Catalonia a pariah state.Speedy said:
What about their own army?SouthamObserver said:
No, that won't happen. They already have their own police force and courts.Speedy said:
The catalonian gvernment should follow the Croatian model quickly, into forming their own police, courts and most importantly army, if they don't want to be crushed by the spanish.surbiton said:
There is trouble ahead...........SouthamObserver said:The Catalonian Parliament has today passed a law to enable a referendum on independence to take place on 9th November. The central government has said it will ask Spain's constitutional court to declare it illegal, which it undoubtedly will. The Spanish PM has already made a television address in which he praised the vote in Scotland and the fact that it took place legally. Things are going to get nasty over there.
If catalonia votes for independence, or even if it tries to hold a vote, the spanish army will invade Barcelona triggering a second spanish civil war.
Spain will attack if they try to leave.
I always wondered how Spain hasn't suffered a civil war or a revolution with an economic collapse of that magnitute, perhaps it will have one now.
You don't understand that Spain is a western version of Yugoslavia, even down to it's economic performance, only force holds it together for now.0 -
That's because she wasnt from any. She was a council employee.isam said:
Reading that you wouldn't have any idea which party she was from would you.dr_spyn said:Sick leave for Joyce Thacker on Monday, great day to step aside.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-292866380 -
I'm tempted to sign that for a laugh.MattW said:"We Demand a New Referendum 'cos it was Rigged" Petition now at 51,000 signatures. Almost all the sigs are coming from Scotland.
That's 10,000 more in 2 hours. 1% of Scottish Population and counting...
https://www.change.org/p/alex-salmond-we-the-undersigned-demand-a-revote-of-the-scottish-referendum-counted-by-impartial-international-parties
We'll get a count of the core Salmond Beliebers yet...0 -
rottenborough said:
Is this a joke? 50,000 people really think the count was rigged? Unbelievable. Of course Neil Armstrong didn't go to the moon, it was all filmed in the Nevada desert etc etc.MattW said:"We Demand a New Referendum 'cos it was Rigged" Petition now at 51,000 signatures. Almost all the sigs are coming from Scotland.
That's 10,000 more in 2 hours. 1% of Scottish Population and counting...
https://www.change.org/p/alex-salmond-we-the-undersigned-demand-a-revote-of-the-scottish-referendum-counted-by-impartial-international-parties
We'll get a count of the core Salmond Beliebers yet...
Losers on the YES side are still in the first of the five stages of grief.
The five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.
Watch out when they get to the second stage!
0 -
Was she a politician? I thought she was a council employee.isam said:
Reading that you wouldn't have any idea which party she was from would you.dr_spyn said:Sick leave for Joyce Thacker on Monday, great day to step aside.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29286638
0 -
I hope you are correct - however, today I am just thankful that after such a momentous decision by voters that could have seen anger and recrimination on the streets, there has been relative calm in Scotland.rottenborough said:
There will not be another referendum in the next twenty years or more. I just isn't going to happen. I think Sean is probably right as well about the No majority. The 'Yes' surge will fade. It's reached its high point, at least in our lifetimes.SeanT said:
Whoever wins the next election will devolve new powers to Scotland, all parties are committed to that - so Scots won't feel short-changed. The difference is that the Tories want to do it in a way that is fair to England, but Labour don't, so the English WILL feel short-changed - by Labour - which means the Tories are more likely to win the next election.Hugh said:Unionists need to play this carefully and get it right I think. I've little doubt that some No voters will be feeling stitched up already, on Day 1.
The Scotland issue will come to a head again, possibly much sooner than many think. And a lot of people who really swung it for No - the oldies - won't even be alive next time.
The early signs, with Cameron's petty partisan opportunism, are not encouraging.
You know all this.
Also young people become old. Their idealistic opinions likewise change to those commonly held by old people.
Old people are always more conservative and risk-averse. And Scotland is an ageing country, so it's quite likely the NO majority will grow.
It will take both sides of the referendum argument to rebuild the bridges - I hope they can.0 -
Has it stopped being a disaster for Dave then? It can be so hard to keep up.MaxPB said:
Not now that Dave has tied the Vow to EV4EL. That has spiked it for Labour today. Plus losing in Glasgow should be very worrying.IOS said:Pong
Sure Labour has got some work to do. Not denying that at all. But you know. Come on, this is about a good as result as possible.
0 -
Winning the AV / FPTP
Winning the Independence debate
Labours done well on the referendums.0 -
Do we know what Dave means by EV4EL yet?MaxPB said:
Not now that Dave has tied the Vow to EV4EL. That has spiked it for Labour today. Plus losing in Glasgow should be very worrying.IOS said:Pong
Sure Labour has got some work to do. Not denying that at all. But you know. Come on, this is about a good as result as possible.
0 -
Yes, I said as much last night when the rumours of Dave offering EV4EL were circulating.Neil said:
Has it stopped being a disaster for Dave then? It can be so hard to keep up.MaxPB said:
Not now that Dave has tied the Vow to EV4EL. That has spiked it for Labour today. Plus losing in Glasgow should be very worrying.IOS said:Pong
Sure Labour has got some work to do. Not denying that at all. But you know. Come on, this is about a good as result as possible.0 -
Max
So we go back to a normal bit of politicking. I can't even begin to describe what a disaster the Labour party would have been like if this had gone the other way.0 -
The Roman Empire ended in 410AD, I thought every schoolboy knew that. The was some scuffling around after that date and a Greek empire based on Byzantium lasted until 1453.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, it would be nice to see.
Mr. Llama, I did say 'in one form or another'. Besides, at what point did the Empire cease being continuous? With Constantine? Arcadius and Honorius? When the West fell and the East did not? When the Exarchate lost Rome?
Else0 -
I lived in Catalonia for five years. I understand it pretty well. Spain and France, to an extent, are absolutely pivotal to Catalonian independence. Morocco is neither here nor there.Speedy said:
They would do it adhoc like Croatia, plus the rest of the world (bar the EU) would recognise catalonia (Morocco and Russia certainly would).SouthamObserver said:
How do you leave a country? Catalonia is surrounded by Spain, France and the sea. It needs a currency, it needs to import and export, it needs to communicate with the rest of the world, it needs access to energy supplies, it needs international recognition and so on. UDI would put unfettered access to all of these things in doubt. There is no need for any invasions.Speedy said:
The catalans want to leave, their government wants to leave. The only thing that can prevent them is the spanish army.SouthamObserver said:
They can't leave. UDI would make Catalonia a pariah state.Speedy said:
What about their own army?SouthamObserver said:
No, that won't happen. They already have their own police force and courts.Speedy said:
The catalonian gvernment should follow the Croatian model quickly, into forming their own police, courts and most importantly army, if they don't want to be crushed by the spanish.surbiton said:
There is trouble ahead...........SouthamObserver said:The Catalonian Parliament has today passed a law to enable a referendum on independence to take place on 9th November. The central government has said it will ask Spain's constitutional court to declare it illegal, which it undoubtedly will. The Spanish PM has already made a television address in which he praised the vote in Scotland and the fact that it took place legally. Things are going to get nasty over there.
If catalonia votes for independence, or even if it tries to hold a vote, the spanish army will invade Barcelona triggering a second spanish civil war.
Spain will attack if they try to leave.
I always wondered how Spain hasn't suffered a civil war or a revolution with an economic collapse of that magnitute, perhaps it will have one now.
You don't understand that Spain is a western version of Yugoslavia, even down to it's economic performance, only force holds it together for now.
0 -
She'll probably be back with a constructive dismissal claim.Neil said:
That's because she wasnt from any. She was a council employee.isam said:
Reading that you wouldn't have any idea which party she was from would you.dr_spyn said:Sick leave for Joyce Thacker on Monday, great day to step aside.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-292866380 -
Sean
I think you're right. As much as I am glad to see the back of Salmond - the biggest threat to the Labour party in the last 30 years - we still have a job to do with Sturgeon.
But at least we are only taking one of them on this time.0 -
Not too stupid, but don't care enough. It requires a knowledge of how Parliament works, which obviously all of us have but most people (sensibly) have better things to do with their time than research it. Frankly, I'm not even very sure a lot of people realise that votes even take place in Parliament (people might see it just where politicians go to "debate" and insult eachother).john_zims said:@Danny565
'Chortling at this idea that Labour will be "killed" in England for opposing "EV4EL". It's too complicated and seemingly irrelevant for the public to pick up on it'
Voters too stupid to understand English votes for English laws,I suppose it's a view or maybe just wishful thinking.
Lord Ashcroft's study of the 2010 election is good on this -- his focus groups showed people couldn't grasp the concept of a "hung parliament" simply because they didn't know how Parliament worked.0 -
An impressively fast volte face.MaxPB said:
Yes, I said as much last night when the rumours of Dave offering EV4EL were circulating.Neil said:
Has it stopped being a disaster for Dave then? It can be so hard to keep up.MaxPB said:
Not now that Dave has tied the Vow to EV4EL. That has spiked it for Labour today. Plus losing in Glasgow should be very worrying.IOS said:Pong
Sure Labour has got some work to do. Not denying that at all. But you know. Come on, this is about a good as result as possible.
0 -
Mr. Llama, bah. The Western Empire ended then. The Eastern went on for a long while after.
Incidentally, there was a programme on about 8pm on BBC4 (first of three) called A Tale of Three Cities, or similar, about Byzantium/Constantinople/Istanbul.0 -
Neil
Well it would have been civil war. People like myself would have been booting SLAB out the door. Some of SLAB would be trying to stay and other in the would be rUK Labour party would be attacking me for facing reality.
So here's a question for you. Imagine if it had been only SLAB and not the rest of the Labour party fighting this battle. Would it have been a yes? I think maybe.0 -
Wings over Scotland were mightily exercised by the fact that the BBC interviewed Salmond and were biased because they didn't give any *other* nationalist point of view!!David_Evershed said:rottenborough said:
Is this a joke? 50,000 people really think the count was rigged? Unbelievable. Of course Neil Armstrong didn't go to the moon, it was all filmed in the Nevada desert etc etc.MattW said:"We Demand a New Referendum 'cos it was Rigged" Petition now at 51,000 signatures. Almost all the sigs are coming from Scotland.
That's 10,000 more in 2 hours. 1% of Scottish Population and counting...
https://www.change.org/p/alex-salmond-we-the-undersigned-demand-a-revote-of-the-scottish-referendum-counted-by-impartial-international-parties
We'll get a count of the core Salmond Beliebers yet...
Losers on the YES side are still in the first of the five stages of grief.
The five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.
Watch out when they get to the second stage!0 -
Mr. 565, all that needs be done is to tell people Scottish MPs can vote on English only matters, the Conservatives want English votes on English laws and Miliband wants to stop that and allow the present situation to continue.
Not overly complicated.0
