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How the public view the final three – politicalbetting.com

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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,597
    RobD said:

    Ouch..


    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    2h
    The Conservatives will be lead by a woman. Labour won't know what a woman is.

    Or a brown man. Isn’t that right Jolyon?
    Lilico seems to think Sunak has no chance with the members. So it is Truss or PM.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    Amazing. But I find I agree with Farage tonight.

    It is beyond bonkers after all that has happened since the vote in 2016 that the Tories are on the brink of choosing a Remain campaigner over a Leave campaigner.

    But she is more Brexity than the Brexiters, now. That's why she has the backing of the most stern faction.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,909
    kle4 said:

    Oh FFS..



    Zarah Sultana MP
    @zarahsultana
    ·
    5h
    With record-breaking 40ºC+ temperatures now recorded, don't forget:

    Just 100 companies are responsible for 71% of global emissions.

    This is a capitalist crisis and only system change can avert climate catastrophe.

    I'm sure I won't forget that, try as I might.

    Non-capitalists don't produce carbon emissions, of course, everyone knows that. It's a little known scientific fact that the ideology of a government affects the laws of nature.
    It would be 100 state-owned companies if the change she wanted were brought about.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    HYUFD said:

    On presentation problems: After, let me repeat, after, he became president, Bill Clinton hired a coach to help him, regularly. I had remembered the coach as a "drama coach", but in a quick search I found only a "life coach", Tony Robbins. https://www.businessinsider.com/life-coach-tony-robbins-bill-clinton-2014-12

    According to the news accounts I read at the time, the coach helped Clinton present himself in public. So, if Liz Truss (whom I know little about) has presentation problems as Prime Minister, they might be fixable.

    (Fun piece of trivia. George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and John Kerry all ran for a House seat in their first elections -- and all three lost. That was the only general election Bush lost during his political career.)

    Bill Clinton was naturally charismatic even from a young age, Truss just isn't
    Do you think that this time that will be tested in a month long membership contest?

    The problem with the May Bot coronation was that Leadsome pulled before things got going. Maybe this time Truss and Sunak will battle it out for four weeks or so?

    I am no fan of Andrea Leadsome but she is a better communicator than May ever was.

    Andrea Leadsom to wrongly believe that her surname was spelled with two es.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,597
    kle4 said:

    Oh FFS..



    Zarah Sultana MP
    @zarahsultana
    ·
    5h
    With record-breaking 40ºC+ temperatures now recorded, don't forget:

    Just 100 companies are responsible for 71% of global emissions.

    This is a capitalist crisis and only system change can avert climate catastrophe.

    I'm sure I won't forget that, try as I might.

    Non-capitalists don't produce carbon emissions, of course, everyone knows that. It's a little known scientific fact that the ideology of a government affects the laws of nature.
    Wait till she finds out that 25 of these evil companies are actually delivering services and products to her own house...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,658

    HYUFD said:

    On presentation problems: After, let me repeat, after, he became president, Bill Clinton hired a coach to help him, regularly. I had remembered the coach as a "drama coach", but in a quick search I found only a "life coach", Tony Robbins. https://www.businessinsider.com/life-coach-tony-robbins-bill-clinton-2014-12

    According to the news accounts I read at the time, the coach helped Clinton present himself in public. So, if Liz Truss (whom I know little about) has presentation problems as Prime Minister, they might be fixable.

    (Fun piece of trivia. George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and John Kerry all ran for a House seat in their first elections -- and all three lost. That was the only general election Bush lost during his political career.)

    Bill Clinton was naturally charismatic even from a young age, Truss just isn't
    Do you think that this time that will be tested in a month long membership contest?

    The problem with the May Bot coronation was that Leadsome pulled before things got going. Maybe this time Truss and Sunak will battle it out for four weeks or so?

    I am no fan of Andrea Leadsome but she is a better communicator than May ever was.

    May had more gravitas than Truss and more appeal to centrist voters
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,597
    @Leon made more sense than Sultana earlier.

    I think he posted as Camden hit 40c:

    "We did this, I did this, we all did this.

    Sob"

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    David Davis raises a serious point.

    If Rishi pushes Liz into the final ahead of Truss we could be heading for a Corbyn situation.

    Aren’t Liz and Truss one and the same? Or a sort of Jekyll and Hyde split personality?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,909

    @Leon made more sense than Sultana earlier.

    I think he posted as Camden hit 40c:

    "We did this, I did this, we all did this.

    Sob"

    It’s now a priority to not just displace our emissions to China, but to actually meaningfully reduce them overall. 2050 just seems too far away.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,597
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    On presentation problems: After, let me repeat, after, he became president, Bill Clinton hired a coach to help him, regularly. I had remembered the coach as a "drama coach", but in a quick search I found only a "life coach", Tony Robbins. https://www.businessinsider.com/life-coach-tony-robbins-bill-clinton-2014-12

    According to the news accounts I read at the time, the coach helped Clinton present himself in public. So, if Liz Truss (whom I know little about) has presentation problems as Prime Minister, they might be fixable.

    (Fun piece of trivia. George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and John Kerry all ran for a House seat in their first elections -- and all three lost. That was the only general election Bush lost during his political career.)

    Bill Clinton was naturally charismatic even from a young age, Truss just isn't
    Do you think that this time that will be tested in a month long membership contest?

    The problem with the May Bot coronation was that Leadsome pulled before things got going. Maybe this time Truss and Sunak will battle it out for four weeks or so?

    I am no fan of Andrea Leadsome but she is a better communicator than May ever was.

    May had more gravitas than Truss and more appeal to centrist voters
    I defer to your greater knowledge.

    I have a quiet regard for May as someone who whatever her faults and wrong ideas did at least seem as a person who personified the best of the deep bones of the conservative party: solid, secure, diligent, selfless, conserving, ancient, Church of England, fete on the green, charity work, stable. Her God seemed to be to do her duty and the best she could.

    Micheal Oakeshott.

    God what damage Johnson has done to all that.

    HIs God is shagging and making money and being seen as important.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,597
    RobD said:

    @Leon made more sense than Sultana earlier.

    I think he posted as Camden hit 40c:

    "We did this, I did this, we all did this.

    Sob"

    It’s now a priority to not just displace our emissions to China, but to actually meaningfully reduce them overall. 2050 just seems too far away.
    As I like to scream at people occasionally with my off/on Green voter hat on:

    What's the fucking downside?

    You decarbonise and you save money. Huge growth and job potential. The countries leading on this tech will dominate the 21st century (forget AI - nowhere near as important).

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,172

    Foxy said:

    What a total shower of cnuts.



    A lot of man-spreading going on in that front row
    Raab comes out of it all best I think. Patel looks good I think, blurry photo. Liz Liz Liz.
    Nice one for history though as this will easily be the worst Cabinet of utter no marks and make weights in political history and led of course by the worst PM.

    What about the Who Who Ministry?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who?_Who?_ministry
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295

    Foxy said:

    What a total shower of cnuts.



    A lot of man-spreading going on in that front row
    Raab comes out of it all best I think. Patel looks good I think, blurry photo. Liz Liz Liz.
    Nice one for history though as this will easily be the worst Cabinet of utter no marks and make weights in political history and led of course by the worst PM.

    What about the Who Who Ministry?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who?_Who?_ministry
    Just 13 ministers there, including the PM.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,172
    HYUFD said:

    This might explain why Truss is leading the membership vote.

    Only 3% of Tory members put electability top of what they want in a new leader. That was behind personality, delivering Brexit, cutting tax and spending, controlling immigration and combating the Woke agenda

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1549410127983378433?s=20&t=BtBxpZRxu8h3dKoZP3f9_Q

    That’s misleading though.

    Why would you want an electable leader if you don’t like their personality or policies? Hence 3% makes sense (it’s at the joke answer level)

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,475
    RobD said:

    @Leon made more sense than Sultana earlier.

    I think he posted as Camden hit 40c:

    "We did this, I did this, we all did this.

    Sob"

    It’s now a priority to not just displace our emissions to China, but to actually meaningfully reduce them overall. 2050 just seems too far away.
    China is one of the main generators of climate change. No point in trying to pretend otherwise. And it isn't anything to do with us, it's because they want to do it themselves as part of their economic expansion.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,742
    kle4 said:

    What a total shower of cnuts.



    Nads’ uti glower is good though.



    Looks oddly photoshopped. What's going on with her chin?
    Clamping down, trying not to cry?
    Nadine Dorries is 65 years old is going on with her chin, even if the rest of her looks younger.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,742

    Betfair next prime minister
    2.12 Liz Truss 47%
    2.52 Rishi Sunak 40%
    7.8 Penny Mordaunt 13%
    410 Keir Starmer
    530 Dominic Raab

    Next Conservative leader
    2.08 Liz Truss 48%
    2.54 Rishi Sunak 39%
    7.6 Penny Mordaunt 13%

    To be in final two
    1.02 Rishi Sunak 98%
    1.24 Liz Truss 81%
    4.5 Penny Mordaunt 22%

    Betfair next prime minister
    2.06 Liz Truss 49%
    2.52 Rishi Sunak 40%
    7.8 Penny Mordaunt 13%
    320 Keir Starmer
    580 Dominic Raab

    Next Conservative leader
    2.04 Liz Truss 49%
    2.54 Rishi Sunak 39%
    8 Penny Mordaunt 13%

    To be in final two
    1.02 Rishi Sunak 98%
    1.25 Liz Truss 80%
    4.5 Penny Mordaunt 22%
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    EPG said:

    https://twitter.com/wef/status/1549380352493461505 Some different ideas on how to invest better in our economies.

    Mazzucato's ideas are hardly "different", they've been the gospel of the IMF for years now, ever since European leaders decided they wanted political cover to borrow and spend on gimmicks. Essentially the idea is to take people's wealth away because the government is better at picking winner sectors, especially since it has the power to rig the game and decide the winner at home with national policy.

    The problem is that Mazzucato's ideas don't seem to work: otherwise Germany would be touting its solar and hydrogen engine export sectors, instead of still struggling to move away from gas.
    TBF:

    (a) Germany imports a lot less energy than it did - it's just most of the reduction is in coal (which, btw, was entirely imported from Russia)

    (b) Germany has pretty significant exports in both solar and wind, albeit mostly at the subsupplier level. (Of course, they also produce about half the world's gas turbines for power stations)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,087

    David Davis raises a serious point.

    If Rishi pushes Liz into the final ahead of Truss we could be heading for a Corbyn situation.

    Pushes Liz ahead of Truss ????
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    On topic you have to optimize for the actual electorate. Most people aren't impressed by Margaret Thatcher cosplay but Tory members presumably are, so that's what she did. Penny or Rishi could have dressed up as Margaret Thatcher too, but they didn't because they don't have what it takes to go the extra mile.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,909

    David Davis raises a serious point.

    If Rishi pushes Liz into the final ahead of Truss we could be heading for a Corbyn situation.

    I’d somehow missed the couple of hundred thousand new members who just signed up to vote for her.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,909

    On topic you have to optimize for the actual electorate. Most people aren't impressed by Margaret Thatcher cosplay but Tory members presumably are, so that's what she did. Penny or Rishi could have dressed up as Margaret Thatcher too, but they didn't because they don't have what it takes to go the extra mile.

    What are her plans to appeal to the larger electorate after that ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    Nigelb said:

    On topic you have to optimize for the actual electorate. Most people aren't impressed by Margaret Thatcher cosplay but Tory members presumably are, so that's what she did. Penny or Rishi could have dressed up as Margaret Thatcher too, but they didn't because they don't have what it takes to go the extra mile.

    What are her plans to appeal to the larger electorate after that ?
    Why would she want to appeal to a larger electorate?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    Nigelb said:

    This is a great thread.

    https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1549527748950892544
    A Brief History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

    A brief history of people making dumb comments, more like.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    rcs1000 said:

    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.

    Over the past century the role of prime minister has evolved, so they have become the guarantor of ethical government. It is up to them to judge the behaviour of ministers. Political trust has sometimes been absent. But that the prime minister can be relied upon to adhere personally to high standards? That the prime minister wouldn’t wallpaper his flat with the £5 notes of a party donor? That has in this past century been broadly accepted, and underpins the entire system.

    What has happened has therefore been unprecedented and has undermined one of the central assumptions of Britain’s modern democracy. It is not a small thing, to be lightly dismissed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,909
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.
    Which PM was forced out of office having been acclaimed by his party for winning them their existing large parliamentary majority ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,909
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic you have to optimize for the actual electorate. Most people aren't impressed by Margaret Thatcher cosplay but Tory members presumably are, so that's what she did. Penny or Rishi could have dressed up as Margaret Thatcher too, but they didn't because they don't have what it takes to go the extra mile.

    What are her plans to appeal to the larger electorate after that ?
    Why would she want to appeal to a larger electorate?
    I had imagined, perhaps wrongly, that she might have some ambition to win the next election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,909
    edited July 2022
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is a great thread.

    https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1549527748950892544
    A Brief History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

    A brief history of people making dumb comments, more like.
    The same dumb comment.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.
    Which PM was forced out of office having been acclaimed by his party for winning them their existing large parliamentary majority ?
    Eden!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,909
    edited July 2022
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.
    Which PM was forced out of office having been acclaimed by his party for winning them their existing large parliamentary majority ?
    Eden!
    Yes, silly of me.
    Though he lost a disastrous war that he had started, rather than getting a fixed penalty notice.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    A reminder that the prime minister skipped an emergency meeting to prepare for exactly this scenario, in order to take selfies in an RAF jet.
    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1549398439439605764

    After winning Commons confidence vote, Boris Johnson sets out agenda for the next seven weeks:

    - Drive a fire engine
    - Indoor skydiving
    - Harry Potter studio tour
    - Finish that IT course


    https://twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1549403379432046600
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305
    edited July 2022
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.
    Which PM was forced out of office having been acclaimed by his party for winning them their existing large parliamentary majority ?
    Eden!
    Yes, silly of me.
    Though he lost a disastrous war that he had started, rather than getting a fixed penalty notice.
    Well, in many ways that's rather worse.

    And I would argue in any case that actually there is a parallel. Neither were, ultimately, sacked for Suez or Partygate/Pinchergate. They were sacked for repeatedly, wilfully and ridiculously misleading their colleagues and continuing to lie even when it was very obvious to everyone else they were doing so.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,748
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. xP, be fair. Do you want Boris Johnson dicking about taking pics or actually trying to influence the state's actions?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.

    Over the past century the role of prime minister has evolved, so they have become the guarantor of ethical government. It is up to them to judge the behaviour of ministers. Political trust has sometimes been absent. But that the prime minister can be relied upon to adhere personally to high standards? That the prime minister wouldn’t wallpaper his flat with the £5 notes of a party donor? That has in this past century been broadly accepted, and underpins the entire system.

    What has happened has therefore been unprecedented and has undermined one of the central assumptions of Britain’s modern democracy. It is not a small thing, to be lightly dismissed.
    Johnson didn't use £5 notes to wallpaper his flat.

    It would look a lot better if he had.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.
    Which PM was forced out of office having been acclaimed by his party for winning them their existing large parliamentary majority ?
    Tony Blair?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.
    Which PM was forced out of office having been acclaimed by his party for winning them their existing large parliamentary majority ?
    Tony Blair?
    Well, if we're going down that route Thatcher also qualifies.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. xP, be fair. Do you want Boris Johnson dicking about taking pics or actually trying to influence the state's actions?

    I want him doing neither.

    If the Tory party don't want him as leader he shouldn't be the PM.

    He should fuck off. Today.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,035
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.
    Which PM was forced out of office having been acclaimed by his party for winning them their existing large parliamentary majority ?
    Tony Blair?
    Well, if we're going down that route Thatcher also qualifies.
    Yep.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,909
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IanB2 said:

    If it ends up being the chancellor versus the foreign secretary (ignoring recent upsets) we might look back at the precedents for succeeding a PM in office and wonder why all the other personalities along the way distracted us so successfully from this fundamental point?

    If it’s a bad choice for the Tories and the country - as it may well prove to be - the fault lies with the clown for making those two his number two and three in the first place?

    In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did. Yet a sense that the Conservative Party has been involved in — no, that is too passive and neutral — has been responsible for a historic disaster seems completely absent from the debate about its future leadership.

    Accepting the catastrophe that has happened, and determining it will not happen again, also requires acknowledging that it was enabled by a weak cabinet. There were many good ministers in the government, but overall Johnson chose his ministers for their personal loyalty or because it annoyed the people he wished to annoy. As a result, many capable people were excluded or kept in junior posts while someone such as the manifestly unfit Nadine Dorries became a secretary of state.

    Part of addressing the failure is for an aspiring prime minister to pledge to choose a strong ministerial team from across the breadth of the party.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/time-to-cut-members-out-of-tory-leadership-contest-jk6kkpc02
    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.
    Which PM was forced out of office having been acclaimed by his party for winning them their existing large parliamentary majority ?
    Eden!
    Yes, silly of me.
    Though he lost a disastrous war that he had started, rather than getting a fixed penalty notice.
    Well, in many ways that's rather worse.

    And I would argue in any case that actually there is a parallel. Neither were, ultimately, sacked for Suez or Partygate/Pinchergate. They were sacked for repeatedly, wilfully and ridiculously misleading their colleagues and continuing to lie even when it was very obvious to everyone else they were doing so.
    That's a fair analysis.

    .... I'm not even going to go down the 'apart from Eden...' line.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    Liz Truss isn't Corbyn.

    She's served competently at Cabinet level for over 8 years under 3 different PMs. Corbyn couldn't run a bath yet alone his own shadow cabinet.

    She's highly abrasive with an awful personal style. Corbyn could at least relate to young people etc.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,382

    Liz Truss isn't Corbyn.

    She's served competently at Cabinet level for over 8 years under 3 different PMs. Corbyn couldn't run a bath yet alone his own shadow cabinet.

    She's highly abrasive with an awful personal style. Corbyn could at least relate to young people etc.

    Fair points. Perhaps what we are actually seeing is Truss pivoting to the selectorate; and their Corbynesque tendencies. She wouldn't be the first PM with a strange personal style, Gordon Brown and Theresa May come immediately to mind.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954

    Liz Truss isn't Corbyn.

    She's served competently at Cabinet level

    Link?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    Scott_xP said:

    A reminder that the prime minister skipped an emergency meeting to prepare for exactly this scenario, in order to take selfies in an RAF jet.
    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1549398439439605764

    After winning Commons confidence vote, Boris Johnson sets out agenda for the next seven weeks:

    - Drive a fire engine
    - Indoor skydiving
    - Harry Potter studio tour
    - Finish that IT course


    https://twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1549403379432046600

    It's the end of term at school, and the head prefect is demob happy.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    UK inflation climbs to 9.4% in June from 9.1% in May (economists had expected 9.3%).

    Means a half-point BOE rate hike in August is likely still on.

    More on @BloombergRadio now…
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    I find myself somewhere between Rishi and Truss on fiscal management to be honest.

    Rishi has awful political instincts and I doubt he'd change a bean. He'd risk choking off all growth for too long and protract a recession.

    Liz, on the other hand, has proposed massive tax cuts and spending increases that are collectively so large that it'd risk more inflation and a run on the pound.

    What I want is targeted relief on energy and employment - and definitely reversal of the new NI levy - and a path to current account surplus by 26/27 that commands market credibility but puts more taxes on capital but not earnings.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic you have to optimize for the actual electorate. Most people aren't impressed by Margaret Thatcher cosplay but Tory members presumably are, so that's what she did. Penny or Rishi could have dressed up as Margaret Thatcher too, but they didn't because they don't have what it takes to go the extra mile.

    What are her plans to appeal to the larger electorate after that ?
    Why would she want to appeal to a larger electorate?
    I had imagined, perhaps wrongly, that she might have some ambition to win the next election.
    A comprehensive programme of selective voter suppression should overcome any shortfalls she may have in that department.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Good morning all

    Let's hope Liz is eliminated today 👍
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305

    Good morning all

    Let's hope Liz is eliminated today 👍

    Is @Dura_Ace working deep uncover with his trusty Ruger 10/22?

    And if so, which Liz are we talking about?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,274
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.

    Over the past century the role of prime minister has evolved, so they have become the guarantor of ethical government. It is up to them to judge the behaviour of ministers. Political trust has sometimes been absent. But that the prime minister can be relied upon to adhere personally to high standards? That the prime minister wouldn’t wallpaper his flat with the £5 notes of a party donor? That has in this past century been broadly accepted, and underpins the entire system.

    What has happened has therefore been unprecedented and has undermined one of the central assumptions of Britain’s modern democracy. It is not a small thing, to be lightly dismissed.
    Lloyd George says "hello".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    darkage said:

    I don’t know why Barty Bobbins doesn’t move to the USA.

    All the things he likes - hot weather, housing sprawl, over-reliance on cars, and a marked libertarianism - are here in spades.

    Warrington - not so much.

    In general I find the US is much less libertarian than the U.K. in many ways. The Land of The Fee - and if you don’t do all sorts of deals with politicians at every level, something between expensive and impossible to do business.
    Not sure about this.

    I do agree that it’s surprisingly regulated - and this seems to be a combination of “pork” and a response to litiginousness.

    But underneath that, there’s a streak of libertarianism which is different from British liberalism. There’s also a celebration of entrepreneuralism which the UK sadly lacks.

    Britain is pretty well-regulated - perhaps a bit too nanny-statey - but not too bad. Which is why I puzzle when Tories say the UK just needs to de-regulate itself to growth.

    Part of the political right in Britain has a pathological obsession with deregulation - a weird legacy of Thatcherism. People like Liz Truss are the most enthusiastic advocates of it. They are like a cult and nothing will deter them from their belief that regulation is a barrier to 'growth'. They had gone quiet for a bit after the Grenfell fire and the May/Bozo governments but now they are back again peddling the same nonsense.

    If people like Truss actually tried to look at the successful free enterprise economies in the world, that they are trying to copy, like Singapore and the USA, then they would see that they are all actually very heavily regulated and the state is very powerful within them. Instead they ignore this evidence and press on driven by what can only be described as a pseudo religious tendency that if the state is rolled back and regulation removed then we will thrive. It is pretty much this philosophy that caused David Cameron to sell of national assets to hostile foreign governments.

    The reality is that these ideas don't have much traction with the public as a whole, but the tories seem to be hell bent on going a bit of a corbyn style nostalgia trip at the moment, in the face of intractible problems that they would rather not address (inflation, war)


    The trouble is there are no quick fixes.

    Sorting out our productivity issues so we have better long-term growth probably requires a 10-20 year project of investment in R&D, industry, science and education.

    But, we spend everything on the NHS and pensions instead.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305
    edited July 2022
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    "In the 300 years since the office was created there have been 55 prime ministers. And not one of them has fallen in the way Boris Johnson did."

    Eh?

    Boris Johnson was forced out by his colleagues.

    That happens all the time.

    Over the past century the role of prime minister has evolved, so they have become the guarantor of ethical government. It is up to them to judge the behaviour of ministers. Political trust has sometimes been absent. But that the prime minister can be relied upon to adhere personally to high standards? That the prime minister wouldn’t wallpaper his flat with the £5 notes of a party donor? That has in this past century been broadly accepted, and underpins the entire system.

    What has happened has therefore been unprecedented and has undermined one of the central assumptions of Britain’s modern democracy. It is not a small thing, to be lightly dismissed.
    Lloyd George says "hello".
    He was over a century ago.

    Well, I suppose technically 99 years and 9 months if we include the ending of his premiership.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    edited July 2022
    darkage said:

    Liz Truss isn't Corbyn.

    She's served competently at Cabinet level for over 8 years under 3 different PMs. Corbyn couldn't run a bath yet alone his own shadow cabinet.

    She's highly abrasive with an awful personal style. Corbyn could at least relate to young people etc.

    Fair points. Perhaps what we are actually seeing is Truss pivoting to the selectorate; and their Corbynesque tendencies. She wouldn't be the first PM with a strange personal style, Gordon Brown and Theresa May come immediately to mind.
    Are there any where it went down well, though?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,305

    darkage said:

    I don’t know why Barty Bobbins doesn’t move to the USA.

    All the things he likes - hot weather, housing sprawl, over-reliance on cars, and a marked libertarianism - are here in spades.

    Warrington - not so much.

    In general I find the US is much less libertarian than the U.K. in many ways. The Land of The Fee - and if you don’t do all sorts of deals with politicians at every level, something between expensive and impossible to do business.
    Not sure about this.

    I do agree that it’s surprisingly regulated - and this seems to be a combination of “pork” and a response to litiginousness.

    But underneath that, there’s a streak of libertarianism which is different from British liberalism. There’s also a celebration of entrepreneuralism which the UK sadly lacks.

    Britain is pretty well-regulated - perhaps a bit too nanny-statey - but not too bad. Which is why I puzzle when Tories say the UK just needs to de-regulate itself to growth.

    Part of the political right in Britain has a pathological obsession with deregulation - a weird legacy of Thatcherism. People like Liz Truss are the most enthusiastic advocates of it. They are like a cult and nothing will deter them from their belief that regulation is a barrier to 'growth'. They had gone quiet for a bit after the Grenfell fire and the May/Bozo governments but now they are back again peddling the same nonsense.

    If people like Truss actually tried to look at the successful free enterprise economies in the world, that they are trying to copy, like Singapore and the USA, then they would see that they are all actually very heavily regulated and the state is very powerful within them. Instead they ignore this evidence and press on driven by what can only be described as a pseudo religious tendency that if the state is rolled back and regulation removed then we will thrive. It is pretty much this philosophy that caused David Cameron to sell of national assets to hostile foreign governments.

    The reality is that these ideas don't have much traction with the public as a whole, but the tories seem to be hell bent on going a bit of a corbyn style nostalgia trip at the moment, in the face of intractible problems that they would rather not address (inflation, war)


    The trouble is there are no quick fixes.

    Sorting out our productivity issues so we have better long-term growth probably requires a 10-20 year project of investment in R&D, industry, science and education.

    But, we spend everything on the NHS and pensions instead.
    We spend a great deal on education. Whether we spend it intelligently is a very different question.

    And actually debt interest is the second or third largest budgetary item ATM.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551
    Scott_xP said:

    UK inflation climbs to 9.4% in June from 9.1% in May (economists had expected 9.3%).

    Means a half-point BOE rate hike in August is likely still on.

    More on @BloombergRadio now…

    Yet Junior Doctors get 2%, seniors and nurses 4.5%. No surprise that the RCN announced yesterday it is balloting for a strike in response, and the BMA, HCSA and others will do so in the next week:

    https://twitter.com/RCN_Press/status/1549430460589215745?t=2dlOvh_mrXFwEcVh5YWxog&s=19


    "People at the top of the economy are having a disco and everyone else is being told to carry the can and tighten their belts..."

    Spot on from @RMTunion Assistant General Secretary Eddie Dempsey.

    https://t.co/THVHbVKP1i
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278

    Ouch..


    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    2h
    The Conservatives will be lead by a woman. Labour won't know what a woman is.

    Stupid thing to say considering Truss’s response on Trans rights in the debate was very moderate and dare I say, woke.

    Obviously Penny is a raging wokey.
    Not really. Liz Truss pushed back against self-ID in the gender recognition bill and took a common sense approach to it.

    The Woke position would have been to go for the Stonewall take with bells on.

    This is your usual reminder that being "anti Woke" does not mean being opposed to anyone who's a white heterosexual male, and anyone who tells you so is either a liar or an idiot.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278

    David Davis raises a serious point.

    If Rishi pushes Liz into the final ahead of Truss we could be heading for a Corbyn situation.

    I think their warguilt is so engrained they can't see straight today when it comes to Russian aggression.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    👀Boris Johnson caught up in (yet another) cronyism row as he plans not just one honours list, but TWO - from @MrHarryCole

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/19253890/boris-jpushing-for-two-honours-lists/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,748
    F1: Sainz out to 26 for the win so I'm guessing he has a penalty.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605

    Liz Truss isn't Corbyn.

    She's served competently at Cabinet level for over 8 years under 3 different PMs. Corbyn couldn't run a bath yet alone his own shadow cabinet.

    She's highly abrasive with an awful personal style. Corbyn could at least relate to young people etc.

    Badenoch was the Corbyn. That bullet has been dodged, for now.

    Truss is closer to Brown.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    NEW

    Inflation rises further reaching new 40 year high of 9.4% on the CPI measure... rise attributed to rising fuel and food costs https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1549637479791206400/photo/1
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,074
    Inflation 9.4%.

    The BoE's 'transitory' rhetoric looks like a joke. That's four and a half years' target inflation in 12 months. It's a permanent increase in the cost of living, even in the very unlikely event of inflation returning back to target next year.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW

    Inflation rises further reaching new 40 year high of 9.4% on the CPI measure... rise attributed to rising fuel and food costs https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1549637479791206400/photo/1

    Yeah, not being driven by pay rises.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605
    Ratters said:

    Inflation 9.4%.

    The BoE's 'transitory' rhetoric looks like a joke. That's four and a half years' target inflation in 12 months. It's a permanent increase in the cost of living, even in the very unlikely event of inflation returning back to target next year.

    Rishi’s legacy.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605
    edited July 2022
    Rishi = Milliband
    Truss = Brown
    Mourdaunt = Jacqui Smith

    Let’s party like it’s 2010.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,748
    Dr. Foxy, not now. But if huge pay rises are thrown at everyone that will slow the pace of inflation returning to normal.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,509

    F1: Sainz out to 26 for the win so I'm guessing he has a penalty.

    Yes he does. Unless they managed to salvage something from that engine!
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,382

    darkage said:

    I don’t know why Barty Bobbins doesn’t move to the USA.

    All the things he likes - hot weather, housing sprawl, over-reliance on cars, and a marked libertarianism - are here in spades.

    Warrington - not so much.

    In general I find the US is much less libertarian than the U.K. in many ways. The Land of The Fee - and if you don’t do all sorts of deals with politicians at every level, something between expensive and impossible to do business.
    Not sure about this.

    I do agree that it’s surprisingly regulated - and this seems to be a combination of “pork” and a response to litiginousness.

    But underneath that, there’s a streak of libertarianism which is different from British liberalism. There’s also a celebration of entrepreneuralism which the UK sadly lacks.

    Britain is pretty well-regulated - perhaps a bit too nanny-statey - but not too bad. Which is why I puzzle when Tories say the UK just needs to de-regulate itself to growth.

    Part of the political right in Britain has a pathological obsession with deregulation - a weird legacy of Thatcherism. People like Liz Truss are the most enthusiastic advocates of it. They are like a cult and nothing will deter them from their belief that regulation is a barrier to 'growth'. They had gone quiet for a bit after the Grenfell fire and the May/Bozo governments but now they are back again peddling the same nonsense.

    If people like Truss actually tried to look at the successful free enterprise economies in the world, that they are trying to copy, like Singapore and the USA, then they would see that they are all actually very heavily regulated and the state is very powerful within them. Instead they ignore this evidence and press on driven by what can only be described as a pseudo religious tendency that if the state is rolled back and regulation removed then we will thrive. It is pretty much this philosophy that caused David Cameron to sell of national assets to hostile foreign governments.

    The reality is that these ideas don't have much traction with the public as a whole, but the tories seem to be hell bent on going a bit of a corbyn style nostalgia trip at the moment, in the face of intractible problems that they would rather not address (inflation, war)


    The trouble is there are no quick fixes.

    Sorting out our productivity issues so we have better long-term growth probably requires a 10-20 year project of investment in R&D, industry, science and education.

    But, we spend everything on the NHS and pensions instead.
    Yes there is this other peculiarly British phenomenon of niche areas of socialism as well, NHS and Pensions are an example of that.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,074

    Dr. Foxy, not now. But if huge pay rises are thrown at everyone that will slow the pace of inflation returning to normal.

    There's a full labour market. If you don't offer meaningful pay rises then expect people to change jobs or strike.

    The policy tool to deal with inflation is increased interest rates. Short-end real rates are currently at -8%, so I'd say there's some way to go on that front
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,912

    Ouch..


    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    2h
    The Conservatives will be lead by a woman. Labour won't know what a woman is.

    Stupid thing to say considering Truss’s response on Trans rights in the debate was very moderate and dare I say, woke.

    Obviously Penny is a raging wokey.
    Not really. Liz Truss pushed back against self-ID in the gender recognition bill and took a common sense approach to it.

    The Woke position would have been to go for the Stonewall take with bells on.

    This is your usual reminder that being "anti Woke" does not mean being opposed to anyone who's a white heterosexual male, and anyone who tells you so is either a liar or an idiot.
    Is there an "isn't" missing in that last sentence, or is it a Freudian slip?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,551

    Dr. Foxy, not now. But if huge pay rises are thrown at everyone that will slow the pace of inflation returning to normal.

    Junior doctors got a real terms paycut of 7.4 % against CPI yesterday.

    Why should the workers carry the can for the government's incompetence?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    ydoethur said:

    darkage said:

    I don’t know why Barty Bobbins doesn’t move to the USA.

    All the things he likes - hot weather, housing sprawl, over-reliance on cars, and a marked libertarianism - are here in spades.

    Warrington - not so much.

    In general I find the US is much less libertarian than the U.K. in many ways. The Land of The Fee - and if you don’t do all sorts of deals with politicians at every level, something between expensive and impossible to do business.
    Not sure about this.

    I do agree that it’s surprisingly regulated - and this seems to be a combination of “pork” and a response to litiginousness.

    But underneath that, there’s a streak of libertarianism which is different from British liberalism. There’s also a celebration of entrepreneuralism which the UK sadly lacks.

    Britain is pretty well-regulated - perhaps a bit too nanny-statey - but not too bad. Which is why I puzzle when Tories say the UK just needs to de-regulate itself to growth.

    Part of the political right in Britain has a pathological obsession with deregulation - a weird legacy of Thatcherism. People like Liz Truss are the most enthusiastic advocates of it. They are like a cult and nothing will deter them from their belief that regulation is a barrier to 'growth'. They had gone quiet for a bit after the Grenfell fire and the May/Bozo governments but now they are back again peddling the same nonsense.

    If people like Truss actually tried to look at the successful free enterprise economies in the world, that they are trying to copy, like Singapore and the USA, then they would see that they are all actually very heavily regulated and the state is very powerful within them. Instead they ignore this evidence and press on driven by what can only be described as a pseudo religious tendency that if the state is rolled back and regulation removed then we will thrive. It is pretty much this philosophy that caused David Cameron to sell of national assets to hostile foreign governments.

    The reality is that these ideas don't have much traction with the public as a whole, but the tories seem to be hell bent on going a bit of a corbyn style nostalgia trip at the moment, in the face of intractible problems that they would rather not address (inflation, war)


    The trouble is there are no quick fixes.

    Sorting out our productivity issues so we have better long-term growth probably requires a 10-20 year project of investment in R&D, industry, science and education.

    But, we spend everything on the NHS and pensions instead.
    We spend a great deal on education. Whether we spend it intelligently is a very different question.

    And actually debt interest is the second or third largest budgetary item ATM.
    It is, but we're not investing anything like enough in education & skills.

    I think the budget is still static in real-terms v. where it was in 2010. I'd like to see much more going into primary and secondaries and adult education/reskilling.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,698
    edited July 2022

    David Davis raises a serious point.

    If Rishi pushes Liz into the final ahead of Truss we could be heading for a Corbyn situation.

    This makes no sense at all.

    Sunak must know he has more chance of beating Penny than he has of beating Truss.

    It only makes sense if it was the other way round - ie Sunak gave Truss votes to eliminate Badenoch. In which case he should now transfer all those votes to Penny to eliminate Truss.

    He's surely guaranteed to gain two from Badenoch. If he knows he has more in the bag from Badenoch then he can up the number he gives Penny compared to the number he gave Truss last time.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    Following on from the Fink article proposing members be excluded from party leadership votes because they pick nutters...

    ⚽️ EXC: Football fans will have the final say in how to run their clubs under plans backed by Rishi Sunak.
    In a bid today to pitch himself as a footie-mad man of the people, Sunak is promising a radical shake-up in time for the World Cup in November

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19255539/rishi-sunak-penny-mordaunt-tory-leadership/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,310
    HYUFD said:

    Polling by Electoral Calculus and Find Out Now gives Labour a 9% lead against a Mordaunt led Tory party and a 12% lead against a Sunak or Truss led Tory party

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1549485684590878720?s=20&t=aMepF0x-JLQ5qm6sk9fe3w

    That all changes on September 5.

    Whoever they are, the new Prime Minister will get one hell of a media boost and the polling will follow. The discredited Johnson will be gone and with their own vision the new PM can set their own agenda.

    The Party polling under "prospective" PMs is spurious. In September, and with a new Prime Minister in place you will see the new PM to be significantly more popular than Johnson. Expect decent Tory leads, in the short term at least.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,748
    Mr. Ratters, no argument on rates. The Bank of England has been asleep at the wheel for months.

    Dr. Foxy, inflation's high all over the West. Blaming the UK Government for that seems unreasonable.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,605
    edited July 2022

    HYUFD said:

    Polling by Electoral Calculus and Find Out Now gives Labour a 9% lead against a Mordaunt led Tory party and a 12% lead against a Sunak or Truss led Tory party

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1549485684590878720?s=20&t=aMepF0x-JLQ5qm6sk9fe3w

    That all changes on September 5.

    Whoever they are, the new Prime Minister will get one hell of a media boost and the polling will follow. The discredited Johnson will be gone and with their own vision the new PM can set their own agenda.

    The Party polling under "prospective" PMs is spurious. In September, and with a new Prime Minister in place you will see the new PM to be significantly more popular than Johnson. Expect decent Tory leads, in the short term at least.
    It would be remarkable if the new leader didn’t get a honeymoon. The question is how much and how long. They start with a full in tray and a divided party.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Nigelb said:

    On topic you have to optimize for the actual electorate. Most people aren't impressed by Margaret Thatcher cosplay but Tory members presumably are, so that's what she did. Penny or Rishi could have dressed up as Margaret Thatcher too, but they didn't because they don't have what it takes to go the extra mile.

    What are her plans to appeal to the larger electorate after that ?
    Steady on now, one thing at a time. If she has plans to appeal to the larger electorate then she can't talk about them yet or she'd lose the elderly white southern conservative gentlemen.

    However if you were given the job of designing what Trussism looked like a view to winning an election, I think you'd do a bit of the old Cameronesque liberal conservative thing with some free trade and patriotic optimism, then add some Thatcher-vibe foreign policy hawkery on Ukraine.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,382
    On thing I have been thinking, is that If inflation is being driven by food and fuel prices, then in this era of relative abundance most people can make lifestyle changes to adapt to it without encountering any real hardship. It is only the poor who are going to really suffer.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,698
    Scott_xP said:

    Following on from the Fink article proposing members be excluded from party leadership votes because they pick nutters...

    ⚽️ EXC: Football fans will have the final say in how to run their clubs under plans backed by Rishi Sunak.
    In a bid today to pitch himself as a footie-mad man of the people, Sunak is promising a radical shake-up in time for the World Cup in November

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19255539/rishi-sunak-penny-mordaunt-tory-leadership/

    No Rishi, we don't need the Govt regulating football.

    And no Penny, we don't need the Govt handing out cheap money to help people who can't afford it to buy homes.

    Just because Liz would be a disaster we don't need Rishi and Penny proposing damaging populist nonsense to get quick headlines.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    Jonathan said:

    Liz Truss isn't Corbyn.

    She's served competently at Cabinet level for over 8 years under 3 different PMs. Corbyn couldn't run a bath yet alone his own shadow cabinet.

    She's highly abrasive with an awful personal style. Corbyn could at least relate to young people etc.

    Badenoch was the Corbyn. That bullet has been dodged, for now.

    Truss is closer to Brown.
    Yes, I think Truss is closer to Brown.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    Penny Mordaunt starts pivotal day by telling MPs she is the only candidate who didn’t serve in Boris Johnson’s cabinet and saying she offers ‘a genuine fresh start’

    Her team suggests Sunak and Truss would lose a general election and she is the candidate Labour fear most

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1549644136378163202
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,382
    The other thing about going on this diet - is that by eating less food it helps deal not only with obesity but also with inflation. Maybe there is something serious in this; people are overweight and need to eat less.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    MikeL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Following on from the Fink article proposing members be excluded from party leadership votes because they pick nutters...

    ⚽️ EXC: Football fans will have the final say in how to run their clubs under plans backed by Rishi Sunak.
    In a bid today to pitch himself as a footie-mad man of the people, Sunak is promising a radical shake-up in time for the World Cup in November

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19255539/rishi-sunak-penny-mordaunt-tory-leadership/

    No Rishi, we don't need the Govt regulating football.

    And no Penny, we don't need the Govt handing out cheap money to help people who can't afford it to buy homes.

    Just because Liz would be a disaster we don't need Rishi and Penny proposing damaging populist nonsense to get quick headlines.
    Rishi would be cringe and Liz double-face palm.

    Penny would be vapid, probably incompetent, and also.. WTF?

    Keir Starmer? Dull, lifeless, banal and a boringly tactical triangulator devoid of any strategic imagination with a corrupted voicebox in his nose.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,038
    Andy_JS said:

    @JulianRoepcke
    Former German domestic intelligence chief (six years under Merkel) blames German industry minister Robert Habeck for Russia’s war in Ukraine🇺🇦, saying, “The Ukraine War is HIS war. I won’t freeze for his war.”

    These are the people that advised “I won’t apologize” Angela Merkel.


    https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1549507199474569216

    I don't understand this, because Habeck only took office a few weeks before the Ukraine war started.
    What was he doing before that? - he didn’t pop out if the ground when someone planted a dragons tooth..

    He’s been in German politics since 2009, apparently..
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,954
    Jonathan Gullis(Tory MP): The quality & diversity of candidates is something Labour could only dream of & they'll smash Labour at the next GE

    Clive Lewis: The Tories think this is a fresh start.. but this is like soiling your pants & deciding you're going to change your shirt 🤣
    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1549358751194533889/video/1
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463
    Both Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak went to Oxford. Keir Starmer did his postgrad studies at Oxford.

    Which means that if either Truss or Sunak wins, we're probably looking at another six years where the PM attended that institution.

    That's not good for politics or the country.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,742
    Nigelb said:

    David Davis raises a serious point.

    If Rishi pushes Liz into the final ahead of Truss we could be heading for a Corbyn situation.

    I’d somehow missed the couple of hundred thousand new members who just signed up to vote for her.
    That is because they signed up a couple of years ago, not last week. The Conservative Party increased by 50 per cent around 2018, give or take. Presumably these new members (not entryists, please, this isn't Labour) are from the bluekip wing but we cannot be sure.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278

    Both Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak went to Oxford. Keir Starmer did his postgrad studies at Oxford.

    Which means that if either Truss or Sunak wins, we're probably looking at another six years where the PM attended that institution.

    That's not good for politics or the country.

    What is it about Oxford?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,463

    Andy_JS said:

    @JulianRoepcke
    Former German domestic intelligence chief (six years under Merkel) blames German industry minister Robert Habeck for Russia’s war in Ukraine🇺🇦, saying, “The Ukraine War is HIS war. I won’t freeze for his war.”

    These are the people that advised “I won’t apologize” Angela Merkel.


    https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1549507199474569216

    I don't understand this, because Habeck only took office a few weeks before the Ukraine war started.
    What was he doing before that? - he didn’t pop out if the ground when someone planted a dragons tooth..

    He’s been in German politics since 2009, apparently..
    It'll be interesting to see how future historians judge Merkel's time in power. From my perspective, it's certainly looking less glorious than it did a year ago.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,278
    So we'll know the two at 4pm today.

    Cripes.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    RobD said:

    @Leon made more sense than Sultana earlier.

    I think he posted as Camden hit 40c:

    "We did this, I did this, we all did this.

    Sob"

    It’s now a priority to not just displace our emissions to China, but to actually meaningfully reduce them overall. 2050 just seems too far away.
    As I like to scream at people occasionally with my off/on Green voter hat on:

    What's the fucking downside?

    You decarbonise and you save money. Huge growth and job potential. The countries leading on this tech will dominate the 21st century (forget AI - nowhere near as important).

    Whilst we continue fail to correctly price the negative externalities of fossil fuel extraction and use we as a planet will continue to churn out carbon and enrich the people doing so.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,396

    MikeL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Following on from the Fink article proposing members be excluded from party leadership votes because they pick nutters...

    ⚽️ EXC: Football fans will have the final say in how to run their clubs under plans backed by Rishi Sunak.
    In a bid today to pitch himself as a footie-mad man of the people, Sunak is promising a radical shake-up in time for the World Cup in November

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19255539/rishi-sunak-penny-mordaunt-tory-leadership/

    No Rishi, we don't need the Govt regulating football.

    And no Penny, we don't need the Govt handing out cheap money to help people who can't afford it to buy homes.

    Just because Liz would be a disaster we don't need Rishi and Penny proposing damaging populist nonsense to get quick headlines.
    Rishi would be cringe and Liz double-face palm.

    Penny would be vapid, probably incompetent, and also.. WTF?

    Keir Starmer? Dull, lifeless, banal and a boringly tactical triangulator devoid of any strategic imagination with a corrupted voicebox in his nose.
    Good morning everyone! Rather cloudy this morning, and the temperature has just managed to crawl above 20° C!

    But is Kier Starmer, like another "modest (lawyer) with much to be modest about " a good Committee Chairman? We don't need another prime minister constantly seeking the headlines!
    Although of course that assumes that in his cabinet there will be some powerful presences. As there were with Attlee.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    Both Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak went to Oxford. Keir Starmer did his postgrad studies at Oxford.

    Which means that if either Truss or Sunak wins, we're probably looking at another six years where the PM attended that institution.

    That's not good for politics or the country.

    False equivalence.

    Keir Starmer gained postgraduate entry to Oxford by virtue of achieving a first class undergraduate degree in law at a redbrick university (Leeds). At every stage of his education, starting from the 11+, he got where he did purely by merit.

    It's hardly the gilded path that the likes of Johnson and Sunak were propelled down.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836

    MikeL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Following on from the Fink article proposing members be excluded from party leadership votes because they pick nutters...

    ⚽️ EXC: Football fans will have the final say in how to run their clubs under plans backed by Rishi Sunak.
    In a bid today to pitch himself as a footie-mad man of the people, Sunak is promising a radical shake-up in time for the World Cup in November

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/19255539/rishi-sunak-penny-mordaunt-tory-leadership/

    No Rishi, we don't need the Govt regulating football.

    And no Penny, we don't need the Govt handing out cheap money to help people who can't afford it to buy homes.

    Just because Liz would be a disaster we don't need Rishi and Penny proposing damaging populist nonsense to get quick headlines.
    Rishi would be cringe and Liz double-face palm.

    Penny would be vapid, probably incompetent, and also.. WTF?

    Keir Starmer? Dull, lifeless, banal and a boringly tactical triangulator devoid of any strategic imagination with a corrupted voicebox in his nose.
    Yes, none of the available options are good.

    I would back Mordaunt because she offers the prospect at least of a clean(er) start and a change of style and mood. She's probably the least optimal choice from the perspective of the opposition parties, but neither my enthusiasm for nor expectation of a Starmer win are sufficiently strong to hope that the Tories choose Truss and then go down to an epic defeat (although the anticipation of an election night that sees a cull of some notable incompetents would be some consolation), particularly given the damage she'll do in the meantime, re-appointing the numpties and carrying on with many of Johnson's idiocies.
This discussion has been closed.